A method to promote sleep in crying infants using the transport response [pdf](cell.com)
cell.com
A method to promote sleep in crying infants using the transport response [pdf]
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(22)01363-X.pdf
307 comments
We did the same and there is one big contradiction between this and the research linked: you're not holding them or walking until they sleep, you let the kids fall asleep on their own with the confidence that you'll be back.
In my country you get a monthly check in with experts for the first 6 months and then less frequently. Mostly to weigh and check growth and arrange shots etc. But they also take some time to discuss how things are going and publish a booklet per age group with advice to parents.
Their advice (based on other research) is to strongly avoid holding your child until she sleeps and instead recommend exactly what you did.
The reason is that if you are holding the baby, they fall asleep and then wake a bit or switch to lighter sleep some time later (like every human does periodically every night) they will encounter a different environment and the holding prent is gone. That's going to wake them up fully and get confused. So now you have a crying baby in the middle of the night that you need to hold again to get back to sleep.
While if they fall asleep in their bed, feeling safe that you'll be around, a few hours later if they wake up they'll determine that everything is still OK and as they expect it to be, and continue sleeping.
In my country you get a monthly check in with experts for the first 6 months and then less frequently. Mostly to weigh and check growth and arrange shots etc. But they also take some time to discuss how things are going and publish a booklet per age group with advice to parents.
Their advice (based on other research) is to strongly avoid holding your child until she sleeps and instead recommend exactly what you did.
The reason is that if you are holding the baby, they fall asleep and then wake a bit or switch to lighter sleep some time later (like every human does periodically every night) they will encounter a different environment and the holding prent is gone. That's going to wake them up fully and get confused. So now you have a crying baby in the middle of the night that you need to hold again to get back to sleep.
While if they fall asleep in their bed, feeling safe that you'll be around, a few hours later if they wake up they'll determine that everything is still OK and as they expect it to be, and continue sleeping.
On a related note, if you sit with them while they're going to sleep, make sure it's "for a while before they go to sleep", not "until they go to sleep", or it becomes a contest where they stay awake as long as possible to keep you there.
Yeah, this is the advice I've always seen with sleep training. It's important to put them down drowsy but awake. I find this extremely challenging. If the lights are on I can tell, but when it's night time and I've got the lights out I have no idea when he's drowsy but not asleep yet, and he's extremely light sensitive so I can't just have a light on. So I often accidently put him down asleep and he actually does just fine.
I agree with not holding the infant until they sleep, that probably makes the greatest difference. I don't understand the check-ins, because they fall asleep so quickly anyway and we don't want to disturb them.
Kids and families are different, but do keep in mind that there is a world of difference between an infant and a 1-year old like the grandparent (perhaps literally?) poster was talking about.
There is nothing inconsistent about holding an infant and then sleep-training a 1 year old.
There is nothing inconsistent about holding an infant and then sleep-training a 1 year old.
It's really age dependent. We didn't do it as structured as OP going back at exactly 3 minutes etc. When she was under 1 year old she would sleep within 5 minutes, so no need to go back.
Now that she's older and speaking, she sometimes doesn't want to go to bed and will tell you. Then it helps to communicate that you'll be back and they're not on their own. Gives enough comfort that I almost never do more than come back once after 10 minutes or so, and over half the time she's already sleeping. If not I just say good night again, hand back the stuffed animal that by that point has usually been thrown out of the bed and that's it.
Now that she's older and speaking, she sometimes doesn't want to go to bed and will tell you. Then it helps to communicate that you'll be back and they're not on their own. Gives enough comfort that I almost never do more than come back once after 10 minutes or so, and over half the time she's already sleeping. If not I just say good night again, hand back the stuffed animal that by that point has usually been thrown out of the bed and that's it.
Also, lots of kids really resist sleep and can take quite a while at it. That's where check-ins come in.
The visiting the room at regular intervals works great. I only have two, and left it late with both. 5yo just fell asleep on his own for the first time a few weeks ago, still hates the idea, but doesn’t scream at least, now he knows I’ve not abandoned him…
With my kids, I used to do visits with increasing intervals. 1st time after 1 min, then 3 min, then 5 min, then 7 min,... I never reached 11 min before they were asleep.
Why have kids (if I read these comments) have such an ingrained idea that you will abandoning them? Is that subconscious, and/or just an emotional response? As in, why would they not presume the inverse (that you will always be there)?
Evolution's indifference is sometimes indistinguishable from cruelty. Presumably we're all descendants of the human and pre-human babies that freaked out at the flimsiest sign of abandonment. Presuming further, the ones who didn't may have had better outcomes for themselves and their parents 99.9% of the time, until e.g. they got lost in the tall Savannah grass just one time, and because of that never got to grow up and have children of their own.
Even if it only happened to, say, 20% of the quiet babies, it's enough to surpass the costs of paranoia.
Even if it only happened to, say, 20% of the quiet babies, it's enough to surpass the costs of paranoia.
I suspect that there were evolutionary pressures at play here.
I assume it is more of the "if the parent leaves me, I am going to die" reflex that is ingrained in babies, so the danger is great enough to warrant panic, even though it is improbable. Plus, very young kids don't have object permanence.
I heard of a parent telling a young kid that beyond the turn on the road there is a Foobarator, and kid dutifully keeps within safe distance without knowing what's a Foobarator nor what threat it poses.
I remember at age 7 being afraid of tigers and dinosaurs at night, sometimes I watched tall coconut trees. I also asked my mum if she will abandon me for a mistake.
I remember at age 7 being afraid of tigers and dinosaurs at night, sometimes I watched tall coconut trees. I also asked my mum if she will abandon me for a mistake.
Infants especially sleep BETTER when there is noise and people around. For an adult noise means something is possibly coming to harm you and your family at night so it awakens you. For an infant, lack of noise means abandonment and the response is to cry as infants are helpless without their parents
Oh interesting, so having ambient noise helps babies sleep?
I had an extremely fussy colicky infant. I never thought that noises would help him sleep. But I noticed he would sleep if I was holding him and talking to someone. One day he was overtired and screaming because he could not sleep, and I turned on the vacuum. He went straight to sleep. It got me thinking about why that would be. Almost all adults would not welcome a vacuum on to fall alseep. We got a white noise generator after and it helped him out.
Like managing a team of diverse thinkers: "Do what works for you(r team)!"
I've read somewhere that white noise is similar to what they hear while they are inside their Mom, so this puts them into a familiar environment, which makes them calm.
They make stuffed animals that play white noise or even human heart sounds. Not sure whether there is scientific data on this, but a lot of parents use them.
Put yourself in the kid's place: You don't know how to calm yourself, you don't know how to keep yourself warm, you don't know how to get around, you don't know how to get food. You are 100% dependent on people around you. The only thing keeping you alive is the goodwill of those people, and your ability to alert them to your problems. The default is no assumptions, just scream when there's a problem - assumptions are learned.
I was just watching some baby birds who kept calling for the parents for food, and it must be ancient evolutionary speaking as well?
I have more than 4 kids
Let me present my 2-year-old's second favourite music, after Van Halen - Jump :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8ccGjar4Es
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8ccGjar4Es
This is amazing, I almost want to have more kids so I can have them love this song.
I'm tempted to slip it in at a rock night.
No, but if I say the exact number I'm even easier to pin down.
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I did much the same thing when the kids were about the same age. I would also put a kitchen timer _in the room_ set to 3:10. So at 3 minutes I got the reminder to stop what I'm doing and go to the room. Then at 3:10 their timer goes off and I came right in the door. The idea was to teach them that the timer brings the parent, not the crying.
We had minimal problems with the two oldest, but the youngest one is impossible. I think I’ve tried all the tricks in every book to make him sleep in his own bed the whole night. I think I can count on one hand the times that have actually happened. Hopefully we/he will figure it soon.
> What I did was walking in at a fixed schedule, starting
Wow I never heard this before, it sounds like a great idea. Did you learn from someone else or figured out yourself? I struggled with getting kids to sleep by themselves.
Wow I never heard this before, it sounds like a great idea. Did you learn from someone else or figured out yourself? I struggled with getting kids to sleep by themselves.
Learned it from a book in Danish - God Nat Sov Godt, originally written by a Spanish physician/doctor so if you don't know Danish but can find the author I think there is a fair chance it might exist in more languages.
What about under 1 year? Facing the same issue
I think the consensus is that letting them cry is unhealthy when younger than 6 months. But when over 6 months:
What we used to do is to have a simple fixed routine (e.g. drink milk, sing a short song, put them in bed) so she knows what's coming and put her in bed no matter what. Crying or not, just put her in bed softly, ignore the crying, say some nice things and walk out in a friendly way.
Come back after 3 minutes of crying. Stroke/hold/sing until she stops crying (usually immediately when you come back). And then put her in bed again in the same way. Often there will be some crying in protest of being put back in bed, it's really hard, but you have to put them in bed then in the same friendly/soft way as the first time.
Then keep doing this in increasing time intervals. We did 3 min, 5 min, 5 min, 10 min and then keep it at 10. But we rarely got to 10 after the initial week of doing this. I've heard several other parents that did the same thing, some after speaking to a sleep coach. It worked for many, but it takes consistency and a bit of time to start working.
What we used to do is to have a simple fixed routine (e.g. drink milk, sing a short song, put them in bed) so she knows what's coming and put her in bed no matter what. Crying or not, just put her in bed softly, ignore the crying, say some nice things and walk out in a friendly way.
Come back after 3 minutes of crying. Stroke/hold/sing until she stops crying (usually immediately when you come back). And then put her in bed again in the same way. Often there will be some crying in protest of being put back in bed, it's really hard, but you have to put them in bed then in the same friendly/soft way as the first time.
Then keep doing this in increasing time intervals. We did 3 min, 5 min, 5 min, 10 min and then keep it at 10. But we rarely got to 10 after the initial week of doing this. I've heard several other parents that did the same thing, some after speaking to a sleep coach. It worked for many, but it takes consistency and a bit of time to start working.
Is this Elon's secret account? :p
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Na, he’s talking about parenting, not fathering
Putting an infant alone in a room of their own seems to be an exclusively western practice and is completely foreign to me.
3500 American babies due suddenly and unexpectedly from SIDS every year. I wonder if there is any research into where these babies were sleeping when they died. Am I an idiot for wondering if they died from the sheer terror of waking up alone in a dark room?
3500 American babies due suddenly and unexpectedly from SIDS every year. I wonder if there is any research into where these babies were sleeping when they died. Am I an idiot for wondering if they died from the sheer terror of waking up alone in a dark room?
The recommendation in the US is to have infants sleep in the same room in a bassinet. Then moving to a crib, often in a separate room, around 4-6 months.
Co-sleeping is also somewhat popular, but it greatly increases the chance of SIDS with risks skyrocketing for smoking mothers and those who are bed-sharing but don't usually do bed-sharing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2065975/
Co-sleeping is also somewhat popular, but it greatly increases the chance of SIDS with risks skyrocketing for smoking mothers and those who are bed-sharing but don't usually do bed-sharing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2065975/
The current recommendation in the US is strongly encourages same room for a year.
We bought a breath monitor which is a desk/plate (about 20x50cm) with a small device attached via a long cable. You put the desk under the mattress and hang the device somewhere on the crib. When it's on and the kid would stop breathing, the device starts beeping really loud.
It already triggered a few times for us, luckily in all cases it was because we carried the baby from the crib a forgot the turn off the breath detector :-D
It already triggered a few times for us, luckily in all cases it was because we carried the baby from the crib a forgot the turn off the breath detector :-D
Would you be willing to share the name & brand of that product? Thank you.
I have the Babysense 2 Pro, which may not be exactly the same brand as OP is describing, but does fit their description.
Obviously, it's one of those things where most people will never actually know if it works or not (thankfully), but based on the fact that it goes off without fail every time I forget to turn the damn thing off after picking the baby up fills me with confidence that it does do what it's supposed to.
Obviously, it's one of those things where most people will never actually know if it works or not (thankfully), but based on the fact that it goes off without fail every time I forget to turn the damn thing off after picking the baby up fills me with confidence that it does do what it's supposed to.
This is not how SIDS works.
Children just stop breathing. Some newer research suggests this is a genetic issue.
Of course there is misdiagnosis for children that suffocate because of toys/blankets.
Children just stop breathing. Some newer research suggests this is a genetic issue.
Of course there is misdiagnosis for children that suffocate because of toys/blankets.
Everyone stops breathing sometimes, but SIDS babies lack certain hormone that causes reaction (start wiggling to remove pillow or start screaming). IIRC Australian scientists identified the marker recently.
Sort of. Australian scientists discovered there is a correlation between low levels of the enzyme BChE and increased SIDS risk. It's worth noting that there's a fair bit of evidence that actually points to AChE rather than BChE, but AChE is much more volatile and so harder to measure.
It's a particularly interesting finding because we already know that low levels of BChE correspond to an additional challenges waking up from anaesthetic, and the working hypothesis is that this may be linked to the arousal system.
One other potential link is to SUDEP (Sudden Unexpected Death in Epilepsy), which so far we also don't understand the cause of, but it may be similar to SIDS (or in fact, it may even be the exact same condition) - it often presents very similarly (face down in bed, no obvious signs of suffocation, etc.). In fact, in Australia and New Zealand, SIDS is being renamed to SUDI (Sudden Unexpected Death in Infancy), which sort of speaks for itself in terms of similarities.
It's a particularly interesting finding because we already know that low levels of BChE correspond to an additional challenges waking up from anaesthetic, and the working hypothesis is that this may be linked to the arousal system.
One other potential link is to SUDEP (Sudden Unexpected Death in Epilepsy), which so far we also don't understand the cause of, but it may be similar to SIDS (or in fact, it may even be the exact same condition) - it often presents very similarly (face down in bed, no obvious signs of suffocation, etc.). In fact, in Australia and New Zealand, SIDS is being renamed to SUDI (Sudden Unexpected Death in Infancy), which sort of speaks for itself in terms of similarities.
Actually for SIDS there are studies that show co-sleeping is correlated, in particular with alcohol and smoking from the parents.
Studies show that to prevent SIDS you should sleep in the same room as the baby, but not in the same bed.
Most important seems to be:
- don't smoke
- always have infants sleep on their back
- don't smoke
- always have infants sleep on their back
The doctors recommend keeping an infant in the same room for 6 months to 1 year. Most say 1 year.
This must have been the default for human history probably as well, I am thinking.
They also said the switch to putting babies back side down (as opposed to stomach side) had something like a 50% decrease in SIDS in the US.
I'd wager that for most of human history at least three generations lived in the same room.
I’m not sure. Biblical accounts seem to indicate everyone had their own tent. Granted, these were rich patriarchs, so maybe not the norm back then.
Is anyone here familiar with the subject across ancient cultures more broadly?
Personally, I sleep better when I’m alone. Haven’t convinced my wife that we should have a separate king and queen suite, though.
Is anyone here familiar with the subject across ancient cultures more broadly?
Personally, I sleep better when I’m alone. Haven’t convinced my wife that we should have a separate king and queen suite, though.
Not ancient, but I come from indigenous folks that live Southeast Asia. Because we're from up high in the mountains, the traditional way of living is supposed to go back quite far in time.
There are still a few that live traditionally in what basically is a large, two-floor long house for a multi-generational household. The families live on the second floor in one large room, but often with a small loft area for a quasi-third floodr The bottom floor is open with no walls (just support beams) to keep the animals. So it's constantly noisy.
There are still a few that live traditionally in what basically is a large, two-floor long house for a multi-generational household. The families live on the second floor in one large room, but often with a small loft area for a quasi-third floodr The bottom floor is open with no walls (just support beams) to keep the animals. So it's constantly noisy.
To help prevent SIDS, I highly highly recommend a product called the Owlet Smart Sock. It was discontinued due to not being FDA approved but it is still available on eBay and it is a potential lifesaver. What it does is that it's a pulse oximeter that sounds an alarm if your baby stops breathing or their blood oxygen falls below a threshold. This device potentially saved the life of one of our kids and I cannot recommend it enough. Our baby had fallen into a too deep sleep and though he looked peaceful his blood oxygen was very low and we had to aggressively wake him up to get him to start breathing again.
The product I am talking about is NOT the Owlet Dream Sock. That version is useless for this purpose. You need the now-discontinued Owlet Smart Sock, of which the most recent version was version 3. I believe the app is no longer available in the app store, and you need the app to use it, but I think if you have an Android device you can probably find an APK on one of the APK mirror sites. Personally, I have the iOS app which I still have due to having installed it on my phone before it was discontinued.
I hope someone will make an open-source product like this. It's conceptually quite simple: connect a pulse oximeter to a loud audible alarm. I would also love to be able to get an adult version as well for my grandparents that would call 911 automatically if they stop breathing or their heart stops. Calling 911 automatically would not be allowed in a product I think, but it could be done in an open-source / open-hardware product where the builder of the kit takes on the liability of breaking the 911-related laws (which in my view is a tiny price to pay for saving a loved one's life).
If any hardware hackers are looking for project ideas, an open version of the Owlet Smart Sock would be an incredible thing to build for the world.
P.S. my pet theory for what causes SIDS is that the part of the brain stem that controls breathing needs time to develop, and when the brain is super young that part of the brain is not yet fully developed, and is susceptible to failing to do its job. I think of an analogy to how people can die of failing to breathe during a heroin overdose, wherein that same part of the brain is put into a state where it doesn't maintain a high enough breathing rate. I suspect the failure mechanism in the overdose situation and the SIDS situation might be analogous.
The product I am talking about is NOT the Owlet Dream Sock. That version is useless for this purpose. You need the now-discontinued Owlet Smart Sock, of which the most recent version was version 3. I believe the app is no longer available in the app store, and you need the app to use it, but I think if you have an Android device you can probably find an APK on one of the APK mirror sites. Personally, I have the iOS app which I still have due to having installed it on my phone before it was discontinued.
I hope someone will make an open-source product like this. It's conceptually quite simple: connect a pulse oximeter to a loud audible alarm. I would also love to be able to get an adult version as well for my grandparents that would call 911 automatically if they stop breathing or their heart stops. Calling 911 automatically would not be allowed in a product I think, but it could be done in an open-source / open-hardware product where the builder of the kit takes on the liability of breaking the 911-related laws (which in my view is a tiny price to pay for saving a loved one's life).
If any hardware hackers are looking for project ideas, an open version of the Owlet Smart Sock would be an incredible thing to build for the world.
P.S. my pet theory for what causes SIDS is that the part of the brain stem that controls breathing needs time to develop, and when the brain is super young that part of the brain is not yet fully developed, and is susceptible to failing to do its job. I think of an analogy to how people can die of failing to breathe during a heroin overdose, wherein that same part of the brain is put into a state where it doesn't maintain a high enough breathing rate. I suspect the failure mechanism in the overdose situation and the SIDS situation might be analogous.
Wasn't the Owlet discontinued because of multiple reported false negatives?
Meaning it failed to detect a drop in oxygenation? Unless it fails 100% of the time, it would still be useful since “alerts on some non-zero percentage of life threatening conditions” is better than the alternative which is no alerts at all.
We had one and I think it made one or two false positives where basically it fell off. I can’t say anything about false negatives since none of our children stopped breathing. (It had two alerts, one for losing skin contact and one for low oxygen. The first one we got all the time when forgetting to pause the base station before removing the sock, so that bit certainly worked.)
We had one and I think it made one or two false positives where basically it fell off. I can’t say anything about false negatives since none of our children stopped breathing. (It had two alerts, one for losing skin contact and one for low oxygen. The first one we got all the time when forgetting to pause the base station before removing the sock, so that bit certainly worked.)
I just ordered a MAX30102 module to test with. You are invited to contact me, my Gmail username is the same as my HN username.
Nice!!
Thanks for the product rec. Does this work via bluetooth or did they somehow keep the servers on?
They somehow kept the servers on; the app gives you push notifications when there is an alarm, even if you are not home.
My partner is a doctor mainly working in early childhood prevention. When she did some recent training on evidence based early childhood care (which is surprisingly rare, most early childhood care is not really evidence based), she learned a couple of things that she said she really would like to have known when we had our children were born.
One is that you get told a lot about averages. So commonly parents get told that babies (should) sleep around 12h a day. What nobody talks about is the variance. There are babies who sleep only 8h a day and others who sleep close to 20h. So you end up with parents who thing they need to get their child to sleep, even though the child is absolutely not tired.
Also a lot of people talk about not giving children too much impressions/stimulation. Which is also generally false, giving them stimulation will actually make them tired and sleep better, they also learn stuff. Obviously you don't do that just before or when going to bed.
One is that you get told a lot about averages. So commonly parents get told that babies (should) sleep around 12h a day. What nobody talks about is the variance. There are babies who sleep only 8h a day and others who sleep close to 20h. So you end up with parents who thing they need to get their child to sleep, even though the child is absolutely not tired.
Also a lot of people talk about not giving children too much impressions/stimulation. Which is also generally false, giving them stimulation will actually make them tired and sleep better, they also learn stuff. Obviously you don't do that just before or when going to bed.
More anecdotally there really seems to be a problem with many 'shoulds' involved in childhood care.
I have a good friend who was given contradictory instructions by health care professionals while they were still at the hospital with their child which developed into a situation where 'professionals' were chastising the parents for following instructions correctly.
This is a real bind for parents who don't have easy access to second opinions or are in a position where the health professionals misuse their position of authority to prevent discussion of situations.
I have a good friend who was given contradictory instructions by health care professionals while they were still at the hospital with their child which developed into a situation where 'professionals' were chastising the parents for following instructions correctly.
This is a real bind for parents who don't have easy access to second opinions or are in a position where the health professionals misuse their position of authority to prevent discussion of situations.
My brother gave me some great meta-parenting advice;
"You're going to get a lot of parenting advice, but keep one thing in mind. Those folks aren't telling you how to raise your kid. They're telling you how to raise _their_ kid. But you're not raising their kids, you're raising you're kids. So take all that advice with a grain of salt."
"You're going to get a lot of parenting advice, but keep one thing in mind. Those folks aren't telling you how to raise your kid. They're telling you how to raise _their_ kid. But you're not raising their kids, you're raising you're kids. So take all that advice with a grain of salt."
especially if you already can see the results of their parenting (which is maybe 50% of the equation, genes making up the rest at least in early years) and its not that great.
Spoiled, overcompetitve, addicted to phones/tv, eating junk food, no good hobbies, clueless and aimless about life and what they want and so on. I have been at times few of those, and while I love my parents overall, they could have done more in some parts instead of me figuring out everything by myself, took damn too long to realize there are almost no limits to what one can achieve and how to get there
Spoiled, overcompetitve, addicted to phones/tv, eating junk food, no good hobbies, clueless and aimless about life and what they want and so on. I have been at times few of those, and while I love my parents overall, they could have done more in some parts instead of me figuring out everything by myself, took damn too long to realize there are almost no limits to what one can achieve and how to get there
One problem I see with many many parents, usually the smarter ones, is desperate need to have 100% control. To know 100% what to do, how to react, understand everything. Failure rate should be 0%, since then you are a failure as parent, human and so on. Like parenthood is some github project that can always have 100% test coverage and predictable behavior.
The concept of 'science doesnt know yet', 'everybody is unique so this may not be valid for your child' is a sign of incompetence from the doctor, so they just keep searching for one that will sound more confident.
In all this, emotions take the steering wheel. And emotions only are bad advice giver in any topic.
What you describe is something we with my wife have known and heard continuously from every doctor ever involved with our children. Dont stress out if its behind average curve in this or that. Sometimes they behave completely out of boundaries. If they sleep more/less so be it, there is a reason for that and no I can't tell you what it is.
I get the emotion of wanting the best and normal for a child damn too well, but real chaotic life happens and some folks cant grok that. One can see it in this thread so damn well - people having their pet theories, ignoring current science level, being damn sure their opinions are the correct ones. Instead of patiently admitting that we dont know yet, there are some theories and some findings but thats it.
The concept of 'science doesnt know yet', 'everybody is unique so this may not be valid for your child' is a sign of incompetence from the doctor, so they just keep searching for one that will sound more confident.
In all this, emotions take the steering wheel. And emotions only are bad advice giver in any topic.
What you describe is something we with my wife have known and heard continuously from every doctor ever involved with our children. Dont stress out if its behind average curve in this or that. Sometimes they behave completely out of boundaries. If they sleep more/less so be it, there is a reason for that and no I can't tell you what it is.
I get the emotion of wanting the best and normal for a child damn too well, but real chaotic life happens and some folks cant grok that. One can see it in this thread so damn well - people having their pet theories, ignoring current science level, being damn sure their opinions are the correct ones. Instead of patiently admitting that we dont know yet, there are some theories and some findings but thats it.
Oh man. We just recently had our first and this is so frustrating. So much parenting advice is old wives tales and just so stories. I found people like Emily Oster really helpful for this, and the APA guidelines are generally pretty helpful. But there are so many things where the available research is just bad.
Ours sleeps quite a bit more than the average and at first it really concerned us until we talked to our pediatrician and they were like no that falls within the normal range. As an analyst I found it really frustrating that the distributions don't get published.
Ours sleeps quite a bit more than the average and at first it really concerned us until we talked to our pediatrician and they were like no that falls within the normal range. As an analyst I found it really frustrating that the distributions don't get published.
> early childhood prevention
What does this mean?
What does this mean?
Lol, I didn't realise how this sounds, I was essentially combining preventive care (measures to prevent disease...) and early childhood care.
There's so much snark here but I love this. I'd take reading papers like this over mommy blogs every day of the week, even if it's to state the ostensibly obvious.
Does anyone have any other interesting child-rearing resources in this style?
Does anyone have any other interesting child-rearing resources in this style?
Papers are great, but the fact that this is still a topic of discussion in the 21st century shows that there are no magic bullets, and putting too much stock in a techniques can feel as bad as the problem you are trying to solve if they don't work and you blame yourself.
Among any parenting peer group there will be some whose children fall asleep instantly with no intervention and some who spend hours doing bedtime and get woken up dozens of times a night, despite doing more or less the same thing.
Among any parenting peer group there will be some whose children fall asleep instantly with no intervention and some who spend hours doing bedtime and get woken up dozens of times a night, despite doing more or less the same thing.
Very much this. I do like that they split the children into "crying-start", "alert-start" and "asleep-start" groups, but ultimately I have had the experience that every kid is different and sleeps differently.
From time to time i go through this cdc[1] website. It is quite comprehensive on child rearing tips.
For a longer form reading i went through [2] and still visit it from time to time. I like it because it discusses multiple approaches and methods and discusses what works and what does not. A bit more scientific, but the gist of it is that most of children's behavior problems are actually parenting problems.
Recently I was trying to figure out why my 1,5 years boy had more liquid poop only when he was in the kindergarten. This made him need to be home quite often. Turned out they were giving him some drink with fruit that made him drink too much water. Given that children do not have perfectly function water absorption in the colon if they drink too much, their stool gets more liquefied. The liquefied poop gets confused for viral diarrhea and he then needs to stay home. I got that insight from [3]. After resumption of diet and removal of sugary fruit from the water, he has been fine for a while now.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/parents/essentials/index.html [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK402020/ [3] https://adc.bmj.com/content/79/1/2
For a longer form reading i went through [2] and still visit it from time to time. I like it because it discusses multiple approaches and methods and discusses what works and what does not. A bit more scientific, but the gist of it is that most of children's behavior problems are actually parenting problems.
Recently I was trying to figure out why my 1,5 years boy had more liquid poop only when he was in the kindergarten. This made him need to be home quite often. Turned out they were giving him some drink with fruit that made him drink too much water. Given that children do not have perfectly function water absorption in the colon if they drink too much, their stool gets more liquefied. The liquefied poop gets confused for viral diarrhea and he then needs to stay home. I got that insight from [3]. After resumption of diet and removal of sugary fruit from the water, he has been fine for a while now.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/parents/essentials/index.html [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK402020/ [3] https://adc.bmj.com/content/79/1/2
Sugary drinks for 1.5 year olds, at kindergarten? Capri-Sun and the like should be banned in schools and daycare, people don’t realize it’s not that different from giving their children Coca-Cola every day.
GP didn't say sugary drinks, but rather water with sugary fruit (all fruit is sugary). Big difference!
The books by Emily Oster are great, they’re purely based on data and she’s a PhD in Econ at Brown so she knows to not misinterpret. She’s also a mother and blends in just enough personal experience into these books to make pleasant to read while never straying from the aim of scientific accuracy. On many topics the answer is unfortunately still “some studies show X but there are flaws or they aren’t statistically significant so we don’t know for sure what Is the best answer”
Just a random tip: noise canceling headphones, particularly over-the-ear, are great for keeping calm while holding a screaming baby. They can scream quite loudly, and when you hold them they are often right next to your ear!
The exact opposite.
Most published research is bogus. Not everything is physics or chemistry. Most things are actually not.
I'd rather advice based on extensive experience and wisdom than "research shows that ...". Basically everytime I see someone says "research shows" I mentally mark it as bullshit.
Most published research is bogus. Not everything is physics or chemistry. Most things are actually not.
I'd rather advice based on extensive experience and wisdom than "research shows that ...". Basically everytime I see someone says "research shows" I mentally mark it as bullshit.
You’re in the wrong forum buddy. Pink colored antivax pages may be found in Facebook.
What is this, red herring, ad hominom, and straw man, all in one sentence?
It's well established that most published research in Psychology and Sociology does not replicate. So there's that. If you don't want to accept that, maybe you are the one who belongs on a facebook page?
It's well established that most published research in Psychology and Sociology does not replicate. So there's that. If you don't want to accept that, maybe you are the one who belongs on a facebook page?
ran out of Latin terms? I didn’t start the overt generalization in the conversation to be exact.
What about advice based on the extensive experience and wisdom of researchers?
Just tried this on my newborn and it seemed to work! I know there are folks saying this isn’t a new finding but i find the timings really helpful. Previously I was walking the baby too long which was wearing me out but having research based timing advise helps a lot.
I'm pretty sure our 4 day old will react exactly the same way to this as he does when we put him into the next to me cot straight after a feed. Which is to say he'll sleep for 2-5 minutes, realise he's further away from the breast than he wanted to be and wake up.
What works for us and our previous child is cosleeping. After I saw both my partner and our eldest fall asleep simultaneously after finishing a feed I became a convert.
What works for us and our previous child is cosleeping. After I saw both my partner and our eldest fall asleep simultaneously after finishing a feed I became a convert.
For a lot of parents, cosleeping is effective in the short term but counterproductive in the longer term.
Also, it's a SIDS risk.
Also, it's a SIDS risk.
When controlled for alcohol and drug use it's actually pretty a pretty insignificant risk. 50% of families admit to cosleeping in the UK, I suspect that's likely to suffer significant under reporting.
I think it's far better to do it deliberately, knowing where the baby is and deliberately positioning to avoid the possibility of rolling towards them, than to do it via exhaustion at 4am.
And our 3 year old coslept until 6 months and has slept 8pm to 8am in her own bed ever since so if that's counter productive I'll take it.
I think it's far better to do it deliberately, knowing where the baby is and deliberately positioning to avoid the possibility of rolling towards them, than to do it via exhaustion at 4am.
And our 3 year old coslept until 6 months and has slept 8pm to 8am in her own bed ever since so if that's counter productive I'll take it.
Congrats! I’ll have my third in the next 2 weeks.
We noticed the same thing with my first 2 kids. They’d wake up from a dead sleep after putting them down. Once my second child was 3-4 months old we would let him cry for about 1 minute and found he usually went to back to sleep. Worked well. With my first we would run in immediately and I still think she has going to sleep issues.
We noticed the same thing with my first 2 kids. They’d wake up from a dead sleep after putting them down. Once my second child was 3-4 months old we would let him cry for about 1 minute and found he usually went to back to sleep. Worked well. With my first we would run in immediately and I still think she has going to sleep issues.
It only works, if it consistently works. And it only doesn't work, if you tried it consistently and it didn't work.
That's not even close to true. Things can work well at first and then stop working after a while. That doesn't mean it didn't work initially.
If we only prescribed pain medication based on your definition, practically none of them would make it through.
Your body adapts to its environment and as such very few things will work in perpetuity.
If we only prescribed pain medication based on your definition, practically none of them would make it through.
Your body adapts to its environment and as such very few things will work in perpetuity.
Bumbing the baby in the cart over a threshold worked very very well initially, for like 3 months, and suddenly stopped working at all.
I feel a great deal of confusion is stemming from that advice might come to late or to early in the childs life.
I feel a great deal of confusion is stemming from that advice might come to late or to early in the childs life.
Some more important conditions from the method used:
> Experimental sessions started approximately 1 to 2 hours after the last feeding
> In most cases when mothers laid the infant down, mothers held the infant with one hand behind the neck and shoulders, and the other hand under the buttocks or thighs. The mother laid the infant on its back in 18/19 samples of the 1-month-old and older infants, and 7/7 of the neonate samples, whereas one infant was laid with a sideways landing, later to be turned on its back.
>To examine the effect of sleep duration on the sleep/wake outcome, the interval between the initiations of infant sleep and laydown was calculated. The timing of the infants’ sleep onset was defined as the initiation of the behavioral sleep state, satisfying both of eye closure and no vocalization.
> Experimental sessions started approximately 1 to 2 hours after the last feeding
> In most cases when mothers laid the infant down, mothers held the infant with one hand behind the neck and shoulders, and the other hand under the buttocks or thighs. The mother laid the infant on its back in 18/19 samples of the 1-month-old and older infants, and 7/7 of the neonate samples, whereas one infant was laid with a sideways landing, later to be turned on its back.
>To examine the effect of sleep duration on the sleep/wake outcome, the interval between the initiations of infant sleep and laydown was calculated. The timing of the infants’ sleep onset was defined as the initiation of the behavioral sleep state, satisfying both of eye closure and no vocalization.
I try to recommend to new parents to get a big room air purifier to clean the air where the baby sleeps but also to add a nice low bass noise (from the motor) that you can’t get from a white noise generator. Our filtrete has been running non-stop for 11 years (kind of crazy).
Definitely helps keep them asleep and non sensitive to sudden noises in town/city.
Definitely helps keep them asleep and non sensitive to sudden noises in town/city.
So much effort just to get kids to do something completely natural. This explains why Western adults are so malfunctioning.
As opposed to non-Western?
I think it's more an indication of higher expectations in child-rearing. If you're struggling daily for survival and 7/10 of your children will die before age 6 I don't think can afford to spend hours every day experimenting which method will get your child to fall asleep without crying.
Except children in traditional societies demonstrably cry less and are happier (both parents and children). Anybody who has spent time living in traditional societies vs living in the West see the differences - chiefly, the sheer anxiety that western children are introduced to from the first day they step foot in the world.
Doesn't surprise me that people in a society that values individual liberty develop more anxiety as they are expected to take responsibility for their own decisions,
as opposed to a society where traditional authority commands you exactly what to do and you'll obey or else.
as opposed to a society where traditional authority commands you exactly what to do and you'll obey or else.
Long term exposure to constant droning sounds could cause issues in language centers of the brain.
When we rely on sounds for kids, we stick to sounds that mimic the more random/non-droning sounds you encounter in nature. Birds chirping in a forest, evening crickets and frogs etc.
When we rely on sounds for kids, we stick to sounds that mimic the more random/non-droning sounds you encounter in nature. Birds chirping in a forest, evening crickets and frogs etc.
> Long term exposure to constant droning sounds could cause issues in language centers of the brain.
Do you have a source for this? We've always used white noise.
Do you have a source for this? We've always used white noise.
Slightly pedantic: I doubt you use white noise. White noise is extremely jarring.
You probably use brown noise or so?
You probably use brown noise or so?
Imagine what my conversationally advanced 4 year old would be capable of if only I didn’t use that darn noise machine all the time!
> Long term exposure to constant droning sounds could cause issues in language centers of the brain.
Citation?
Citation?
Anecdotal but I used a noise machine that played brown noise because I was informed it mimics the sound of the baby’s womb. My daughter is extremely advanced in all areas of learning now at 5 years old. Her first word was hi at 4 months.
The womb is incredibly loud for the baby :)
As a parent of a 5mo old I had to discover this on my own. Luckily my daughter makes it abundantly clear that she does not like me to sit while I hold her. Our midwife even said that babies like to know you are up and ready to escape predators. Not sure how true that part is.
I thought it was just my kids. We like to think of them as requiring "the path of greatest effort"
I think of it as a fitness measure: Are you active enough at moving towards food gathering sites, preparing and surveying the landscape, creating and fine tuning your tools? If it is an approval of sorts on behalf of the child, then it also points to some really basic learning that is beginning to flow between the parent and child
That's a mind-boggling theory actually, that some general survival skills are encoded in the parent-child relationship. Basically you have to become a parent to level-up your survival skills.
I wouldn't put it past evolution to encode useful information wherever possible, but it would be hard to prove that theory.
I wouldn't put it past evolution to encode useful information wherever possible, but it would be hard to prove that theory.
Not clear whether evolution would select for crying in the possible presence of predators (so fighting adults can be woken) or for silence (to avoid attracting attention as prey).
Crying garners attention from adults in either case. Any attention could be better than no attention I suppose.
I think babies cry when they get tired to warn parents they are going to fall asleep soon, so that parents know they have to take them somewhere safe to sleep.
"You cannot sleep while enemies are nearby"
Ok this we figured out.
What I need to find out is what to do in the car. Our kid mostly calms down while walking, but unlike his older brother the car vibrations do not make him sleep at all. And so once he starts crying in the car, we have no way of calming him down, beside stopping the car and carrying him.
It seems like very bouncy driving (a sequence of high acceleration followed by sudden braking) helps, but it’s kind of wreckless, makes my wife sick and my older kid angry.
Help!
What I need to find out is what to do in the car. Our kid mostly calms down while walking, but unlike his older brother the car vibrations do not make him sleep at all. And so once he starts crying in the car, we have no way of calming him down, beside stopping the car and carrying him.
It seems like very bouncy driving (a sequence of high acceleration followed by sudden braking) helps, but it’s kind of wreckless, makes my wife sick and my older kid angry.
Help!
Probably just need to gut it out for a couple road trips and try not to show the kid how stressed out you are while it’s happening - kinda like a thunderstorm. It gets better. Good luck.
Intermediate tactics: white noise in the back seat, maybe some lullabies, singalongs, make sure the seatbelts aren’t too tight, maybe a drink or pacifier, etc - whatever to keep things quiet for a bit.
Intermediate tactics: white noise in the back seat, maybe some lullabies, singalongs, make sure the seatbelts aren’t too tight, maybe a drink or pacifier, etc - whatever to keep things quiet for a bit.
I got nothing. For us, we discovered that if we time car trips around their bedtime or naptime, she cries a while and then conks out. Then when we reach our destination, we take her out and put her in an adjustable lay-flat stroller (if outside) or to bed (if home). The process of getting her to conk out while we drive? Just pure grit, endurance, and lots of singing lullabies, which may simply be correlated, rather than causative. Sometimes it takes a while. :(
More evidence on how harmful a car-centric lifestyle is to humanity.
Child safety and cars sure is related - and history buffs will be glad to know the “kindermoord” of automobiles was what got the Netherlands to change from car-centric cities with many lanes wide traffic jams, to the best city infrastructure in the world
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/02/20/the-origins-of-hollan...
Cars produce crazy noise pollution, and car lifestyle requires massive subsidies such as street parking, and a huge share of city real estate being used for parking and roads.
Lately, I’ve been inspired by this channel “Not just bikes” on the subject, and other HN readers may find it interesting as well https://youtu.be/XfQUOHlAocY
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/02/20/the-origins-of-hollan...
Cars produce crazy noise pollution, and car lifestyle requires massive subsidies such as street parking, and a huge share of city real estate being used for parking and roads.
Lately, I’ve been inspired by this channel “Not just bikes” on the subject, and other HN readers may find it interesting as well https://youtu.be/XfQUOHlAocY
Your virtue has been signaled. Pretending cars are going away is not a realistic view.
If you were aware of how many things make babies cry I think you would be quite embarrassed about this comment
Please explain? I don't see how one particular baby's dislike show anything about whether it's harmful.
More evidence of how anti-car fetishists are ruining HN
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I wonder if the reason babies cry so often is because they are "supposed" to be carried by their mother constantly in a hunter-gatherer setting.
Probably it’s because their whole body is in pain, since all of the sensors are not fully calibrated yet.
We are constantly in pain, it’s just that we have calibrated our brains to ignore specific levels of pain or cut off completely sensors.
Typical example of signal we filter out is the sense of our organs moving inside our body.
We are constantly in pain, it’s just that we have calibrated our brains to ignore specific levels of pain or cut off completely sensors.
Typical example of signal we filter out is the sense of our organs moving inside our body.
I have never heard of this. Seems like you're suggesting that it is possible to recalibrate the brain to ignore pain - like a toothache, for example?
I think this is why doctors consider chronic pain kind of not a thing. We are supposed to recalibrate. But I'm personally pretty sure this is nonsense and they have convinced themselves this is true so they don't have to feel bad about withholding powerful painkillers due to society disapproving of them.
This sounds pretty fanciful and ungrounded. In general doctors don't "consider chronic pain kind of not a thing". I have chronic pain, I see doctors about it, and none have ever expressed any doubt. Quite the opposite: some of the doctors are chronic pain specialists. There are pain management centres at hospitals to help people with it, and they prescribe "powerful painkillers" if they're useful, but they often just aren't (e.g. for me).
> so they don't have to feel bad about withholding powerful painkillers due to society disapproving of them
little reality check for you: https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html
little reality check for you: https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html
I guess oscillating pain is also "chronic pain" and you want calibrate for that.
> Probably it’s because their whole body is in pain, since all of the sensors are not fully calibrated yet.
Anyone have a source for this? It sounds really interesting, but never heard anything like it.
Anyone have a source for this? It sounds really interesting, but never heard anything like it.
> We are constantly in pain, it’s just that we have calibrated our brains to ignore specific levels of pain or cut off completely sensors.
> Typical example of signal we filter out is the sense of our organs moving inside our body.
Interesting, do you have a source for this? Would love to read more.
> Typical example of signal we filter out is the sense of our organs moving inside our body.
Interesting, do you have a source for this? Would love to read more.
I remember running into this idea when I was taking care of a colicky infant. Baby carrying slings and wraps seemed very popular among new parents. This article covers some of the evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2005/jun/08/familya...
In my experience, baby carrying is great but some babies just cry. My first child was held constantly, and we spent every evening bouncing hard on a yoga ball with her, but it wasn't enough to fully quell the crying.
In my experience, baby carrying is great but some babies just cry. My first child was held constantly, and we spent every evening bouncing hard on a yoga ball with her, but it wasn't enough to fully quell the crying.
Baby sling / baby carrier is just miraculous. First daughter with second wife was crying a lot and we had to carry her much. With the sling you can basically carry the baby and still have the hands free and keep on with your stuff.
You also have to learn to recognize the stages of sleep. Hold the arm of the baby up and down. If the arm remains in the air, this is light sleep. If the arm feels heavier and goes down all the way, this is deep sleep. Only then put the baby into the cot. This is quite important to know.
You also have to learn to recognize the stages of sleep. Hold the arm of the baby up and down. If the arm remains in the air, this is light sleep. If the arm feels heavier and goes down all the way, this is deep sleep. Only then put the baby into the cot. This is quite important to know.
Some babies still cry even if carried all the time;
But there is an issue in our society that if you are looking after a baby by yourselves during the day, so nobody to hand them to, you do need to put them down briefly for practical reasons.
But there is an issue in our society that if you are looking after a baby by yourselves during the day, so nobody to hand them to, you do need to put them down briefly for practical reasons.
They're supposed to be nursing... I don't know why people are being weird and complicated about this. If the baby is crying, breastfeed.
This may have worked for you, but I've seen babies cry after breastfeeding and burping. I've seen parents try to force them to breast feed and they bob on and off because they just aren't hungry.
The breastfeed strategy worked probably less than half the time for my oldest.
I'm glad this works / worked for you. If only it were this simple for the rest of us!
The breastfeed strategy worked probably less than half the time for my oldest.
I'm glad this works / worked for you. If only it were this simple for the rest of us!
1.) Some women will never produce milk in sufficient quantities after the child is born, just due to random luck.
1a.) Formula is expensive, takes minutes of effort to prepare, and not always obtainable.
2.) Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Comfort nursing at certain stages of the child's life will end up sleep training them in a negative way.
3.) Some babies are born with impairments that do not allow them to nurse effectively, or at all.
4.) Moms need a break from nursing too.
1a.) Formula is expensive, takes minutes of effort to prepare, and not always obtainable.
2.) Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Comfort nursing at certain stages of the child's life will end up sleep training them in a negative way.
3.) Some babies are born with impairments that do not allow them to nurse effectively, or at all.
4.) Moms need a break from nursing too.
There are lots of babies who can’t breastfeed efficiently unfortunately.
They slowly run out of energy while trying to suck and you only realize in horror when they don’t wake up from their hypoglycaemic “nap” by themselves anymore.
Breastfeeding is a wonderful thing and it’s an important default more mothers should be able to practice for as long as they and their child need and want to.
It’s also a highly complex process that often even a lactation consultant won’t be able to “fix”.
So yeah no shame, just empathy for all involved.
Feeding suddenly gets 1000x harder especially when deciding to go down the commendable road of pumping. All while potentially suffering from additional knock-on effects from lack of often very effective comforting-through-breastfeeding for example.
Even if health, general well-being and circumstances allow getting breast milk into a baby over even just the minimally recommended time can be one of the hardest things you’ll ever witness your partner go through.
For the lucky - majority I’m hoping - it can be both very fulfilling and sensual bonding probably even relaxing to the mother as well.
Be very thankful if that’s so in your case.
They slowly run out of energy while trying to suck and you only realize in horror when they don’t wake up from their hypoglycaemic “nap” by themselves anymore.
Breastfeeding is a wonderful thing and it’s an important default more mothers should be able to practice for as long as they and their child need and want to.
It’s also a highly complex process that often even a lactation consultant won’t be able to “fix”.
So yeah no shame, just empathy for all involved.
Feeding suddenly gets 1000x harder especially when deciding to go down the commendable road of pumping. All while potentially suffering from additional knock-on effects from lack of often very effective comforting-through-breastfeeding for example.
Even if health, general well-being and circumstances allow getting breast milk into a baby over even just the minimally recommended time can be one of the hardest things you’ll ever witness your partner go through.
For the lucky - majority I’m hoping - it can be both very fulfilling and sensual bonding probably even relaxing to the mother as well.
Be very thankful if that’s so in your case.
If supply is low, you can still comfort nurse and supplement with formula to make sure they actually get enough nutrition.
[deleted]
Tell me you’re not a parent without telling me you’re not a parent.
Babies cry for very few reasons, and reason number one, two, and three, is hunger.
Babies cry for very few reasons, and reason number one, two, and three, is hunger.
Depends on age.
When teething number one two and three are teeth.
When teething number one two and three are teeth.
Teething is miserable no doubt, going through it now. My comment assumed we were talking children who were not yet teething. Possibly a bad assumption on my part.
I've had a colicky baby who cried not because he wanted to nurse (he would stop wanting to nurse after a certain point) and not because he was hungry. There are a certain percentage of babies with colic, we don't know why they cry but they cry and carrying them, nursing them, feeding them breastmilk through a bottle doesn't really help.
Then for our son, it grew less and by the time he was 3 months old, he was a very happy baby.
Then for our son, it grew less and by the time he was 3 months old, he was a very happy baby.
> Teething is miserable no doubt, going through it now.
What took you so long to start teething?
What took you so long to start teething?
come to our house between 22 and 01 AM and I’ll show you a baby whose intense crying is inconsolable by breastfeeding
Hold him, breastfeed him and co-sleep with him and he'll be fine. Otherwise you're doing something wrong.
It's basic common sense, if babies evolved to scream for no reason for long hours in the wild, early humans would have been killed off by nocturnal predators ages ago.
It's basic common sense, if babies evolved to scream for no reason for long hours in the wild, early humans would have been killed off by nocturnal predators ages ago.
> Hold him, breastfeed him and co-sleep with him and he'll be fine. Otherwise you're doing something wrong.
Some humility would serve you well.
Some babies, even toddlers, scream loudly for extended periods with no way to console them. Our neighbor a decade ago had one such child. They were great, loving parents. The kid was obviously happy and content. Yet, every night, for several hours, she was a siren. They saw lots of doctors. They started with co-sleeping, for what it's worth. In the end, a separate bed and a parent reading a book with ear plugs [for several hours] seemed to cause the child the least distress.
When the child was 2, and still screaming, a new neighbor moved in. They spread neighborhood gossip of child abuse. They called the police and child protective services. Luckily, their case was so well documented, it was not an issue. The issue was "resolved" with better soundproofing.
The kid is a teen now. Extremely kind, well adjusted, helpful, smart, and, a sound sleeper. She's obviously loved very much her entire life. I think the parents did a great job.
Some humility would serve you well.
Some babies, even toddlers, scream loudly for extended periods with no way to console them. Our neighbor a decade ago had one such child. They were great, loving parents. The kid was obviously happy and content. Yet, every night, for several hours, she was a siren. They saw lots of doctors. They started with co-sleeping, for what it's worth. In the end, a separate bed and a parent reading a book with ear plugs [for several hours] seemed to cause the child the least distress.
When the child was 2, and still screaming, a new neighbor moved in. They spread neighborhood gossip of child abuse. They called the police and child protective services. Luckily, their case was so well documented, it was not an issue. The issue was "resolved" with better soundproofing.
The kid is a teen now. Extremely kind, well adjusted, helpful, smart, and, a sound sleeper. She's obviously loved very much her entire life. I think the parents did a great job.
My point still stands. Behind many a crackpot on Kensington Ave are well-meaning "good" Parents.
Shrieking children for hours is very much a modern phenomenon.
Shrieking children for hours is very much a modern phenomenon.
”It has been an age-old practice to drug crying infants. During the second century AD, the Greek physician Galen prescribed opium to calm fussy babies, and during the Middle Ages in Europe, mothers and wet nurses smeared their nipples with opium lotions before each feeding. Alcohol was also commonly given to infants.”
yeah it’s a modern phenomenon because overzealous regulatory agencies gatekeep parents’ access to opium lotions
yeah it’s a modern phenomenon because overzealous regulatory agencies gatekeep parents’ access to opium lotions
Your statement is so absurd that the only explanation is that you must not have had children. Hunger is only 1 of a dozen different reasons why babies will cry.
To be fair, giving them a boob does often comfort them, even if it's not hunger or thirst.
The advice is still not generally applicable.
(About half the parents in the world, fathers, aren't even capable of producing milk.)
The advice is still not generally applicable.
(About half the parents in the world, fathers, aren't even capable of producing milk.)
Someone who has never seen a breast after feeding the babies that bite for long, and never known the pain when babies suck the hurt nipple.. Yes, we all would like to breastfeed the babies and keep them calm forever. (I am a father of twins)
[deleted]
Oh man is it finally my time to shine?
I'm the CTO of a startup working on exactly this (pediatric sleeping):
https://www.restfullysleep.com/
Fun fact there are 3 total methods to naturally promote sleep.
I'm the CTO of a startup working on exactly this (pediatric sleeping):
https://www.restfullysleep.com/
Fun fact there are 3 total methods to naturally promote sleep.
Just FYI, the images on your site appear to be lazy-loading and on Firefox, it's creating a very stuttered experience. I thought it may have been the size of the images, but none of them are HUGE (there are a couple over 1MB though).
What are the other two?
Please go ahead and profit off the exhaustion and desperation of others.
Please go ahead and provide proven solutions to those of us who are exhausted and desperate. If you profit while you're at it too, it's a clear win-win!
by all means, please go ahead and buy this product, but know that this product is available in your public library.
By this logic, do you have a problem with grocery stores?
and is world hunger solved?
Just remember holding my kids, walking, sitting, and counting to 100 one or more times, and then gently laying them down. Those nights of counting.
I did something similar but then I had to press my hand on his back or butt so he felt like he was still being held, then count to 100 and release it as slowly as possible.
Babies are ridiculous.
Babies are ridiculous.
Dad on my 3rd baby (2 months old now). I'm like a WWE ref, I lift up my son's arm to check if it drops without resistance, after walking/dancing for a few minutes. Then fast to his bed if so.
That's how I put my newborn to sleep initially, and it works, BUT there's a problem here -
If the baby falls asleep in your arms, when he lightly wakes up middle of the night he expects to be in your arms, instead he finds he's alone in bed, and wakes up fully, panics and starts crying.
It is usually recommended to place the baby in his crib while awake, for him to fall asleep there and wake up in the same place he fell asleep in.
This is according to "sleep training", and I can testify it absolutely works (after two difficult nights where baby needs to adjust to falling asleep alone)
If the baby falls asleep in your arms, when he lightly wakes up middle of the night he expects to be in your arms, instead he finds he's alone in bed, and wakes up fully, panics and starts crying.
It is usually recommended to place the baby in his crib while awake, for him to fall asleep there and wake up in the same place he fell asleep in.
This is according to "sleep training", and I can testify it absolutely works (after two difficult nights where baby needs to adjust to falling asleep alone)
> It should be noted that, unlike most behavioral interventions for infant sleep difficulties, 9,10 this protocol does not address any long-term improvement of sleep regulation.
I'd expect as much since this is the first thing a parent tries to do. Holding the baby when they wake crying several times a night will calm them, not exactly revelatory, but can come in handy even for more lasting solutions.
I find the lit/consultants have wildly varying degrees of severity for approaches, including for gradual extinction. The mistake I think we made prior to seeking intervention is feeding-to-sleep for too long, i.e. the baby would drink a bottle right before bed and get knocked out (mostly). They were always accustomed to being asleep in arms before being put down. I think if you feed slightly earlier in the routine-chain, with the lights on, you go a long ways to avoiding this issue, since you can rock them while they're awake for a time before putting them down. In some branded variants of graduated extinction, they suggest making sure your baby is super wakeful and basically dropping them in the crib right away after reading a book - this seems needlessly harsh when going from the opposite extreme, which is reflected in the baby's level of crying. We found that it went well to rock them until they were calm and drowsy (but still awake) before putting them down. The protest was mild and short-lived, but of course that's only our experience.
I'd expect as much since this is the first thing a parent tries to do. Holding the baby when they wake crying several times a night will calm them, not exactly revelatory, but can come in handy even for more lasting solutions.
I find the lit/consultants have wildly varying degrees of severity for approaches, including for gradual extinction. The mistake I think we made prior to seeking intervention is feeding-to-sleep for too long, i.e. the baby would drink a bottle right before bed and get knocked out (mostly). They were always accustomed to being asleep in arms before being put down. I think if you feed slightly earlier in the routine-chain, with the lights on, you go a long ways to avoiding this issue, since you can rock them while they're awake for a time before putting them down. In some branded variants of graduated extinction, they suggest making sure your baby is super wakeful and basically dropping them in the crib right away after reading a book - this seems needlessly harsh when going from the opposite extreme, which is reflected in the baby's level of crying. We found that it went well to rock them until they were calm and drowsy (but still awake) before putting them down. The protest was mild and short-lived, but of course that's only our experience.
This. Be very careful implementing this paper's technique. It does NOT promote long-term sleep independence, which should be the goal. Crying before sleeping is not inherently bad. The objective function is not to greedily minimize crying. If you are interested in materials on sleep training, I recommend taking a more holistic view than a single paper. "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" is a good reference.
> Waiting 5 to 8 minutes before laydown prevents infant awakening
LOL. Definitely did not work on my (now 3 year old) daughter during the infant phase.
LOL. Definitely did not work on my (now 3 year old) daughter during the infant phase.
That's the number one thing about all these advice articles. Every kid is different. That's great to have tips of things to try, but there's absolutely no secret formula and 4 kids is a really small sample size.
Same. I personally found it very difficult to tell the difference between actually asleep vs. starting to fall asleep.
I use the paci as a cue. Once it falls out of their mouth, they're usually asleep. (Usually...)
None of my kids would ever even take a pacifier. There are so many different babies that there is certainly no one true method.
Absolutely agree. Every baby is different. Took a couple months for my last one to take a paci because he had a small tongue tie that we had to work through.
I found this out by just trial and error.
Hold and walk until they sleep, then keep walking for 5-10 minutes, or just sit down for 10 minutes before laying them on the bed.
Hold and walk until they sleep, then keep walking for 5-10 minutes, or just sit down for 10 minutes before laying them on the bed.
I've never seen a graphical abstract like this before, what a fantastic idea.
Baby sling / baby carrier is just miraculous. First daughter with second wife was crying a lot and we had to carry her much. With the sling you can basically carry the baby, have the hands free and keep on with your stuff.
You also have to learn to recognize the stages of sleep. Hold the arm of the baby up and down. If the arm remains in the air, this is light sleep. If the arm feels heavier and goes down all the way, this is deep sleep. Only then put the baby into the cot. This is quite important to know.
You also have to learn to recognize the stages of sleep. Hold the arm of the baby up and down. If the arm remains in the air, this is light sleep. If the arm feels heavier and goes down all the way, this is deep sleep. Only then put the baby into the cot. This is quite important to know.
I think most experienced child-carers could tell you this, but it's great to see it made explicit.
I personally favor a bounce->rock->walk->sit pipeline, but ymmv based on the temperament of the child.
I personally favor a bounce->rock->walk->sit pipeline, but ymmv based on the temperament of the child.
Any sleep-training that doesn’t begin with teaching the baby to self-soothe is bound to be a lot of work for the parents. If you perform this task for your child then you will inevitably end up repeating it whenever they stir during their sleep time. Babies can learn structure and routine and follow predictable sleep/wake patterns if they’re taught to, and they are capable of soothing themselves. So long as you’ve taken care of all their other physical needs (fed, dry diaper, secure swaddle if they’re still in that stage) then any intrusion into their sleep time teaches your child that you will come in and be with them if they stir. Even infants will pick up on this very simple cause/effect relationship and abuse it to their advantage. I have adopted 4 special needs kids, and my wife (who knows much more than I do on the subject) has successfully managed to have them all sleeping soundly relatively early, often through the night after 3 months, and never in our bed.
This approach does require some patience and letting the child “cry it out”, but this is how they learn to be the master of their own sleep.
This approach does require some patience and letting the child “cry it out”, but this is how they learn to be the master of their own sleep.
self-soothing FTW. Although, funny story: sleep training went great with our first kid - maybe one hour of "cry it out" and then everything was fine for the rest of the night and all following nights. So when the second one came along, and we had managed to forget everything about the care of newborns because we formed few permanent memories during the haze of sleep deprivation, we thought to let him cry it out _on the very first night home_. Literally a 3 day old baby. Fortunately when we came fully awake we stopped mumbling "cry it out" to each other and remembered, right, newborns need food in the middle of the night. For months. "Cry it out" has to wait a bit...
It does, but you can still establish “this is night” and feed the baby in a very low-stimulus (dark, no talking, keep them swaddled, etc.) environment for those night feeds. That “dream-feed” is basically just eating, checking the diaper and putting them back down for the next 4 hours. Obviously if they cry for more than 15 minutes or so you go check on them (e.g. make sure the diaper is still dry), but by keeping the intervention to a bare minimum you keep them in a state of more or less teaching themselves to do the actual sleeping part :)
Oops, I meant "Cry it out" *had* to wait a bit. He's nine now =)
Sadly his night feeds went somewhat long because he was a reluctant burper, and that big burp was definitely necessary for him to fall back asleep. I read most of "Quantum Computing Since Democritus" during those night feeds (on a very-low-light-setting kindle, in a dark room, etc). There are probably more conducive environments for reading that book...
Sadly his night feeds went somewhat long because he was a reluctant burper, and that big burp was definitely necessary for him to fall back asleep. I read most of "Quantum Computing Since Democritus" during those night feeds (on a very-low-light-setting kindle, in a dark room, etc). There are probably more conducive environments for reading that book...
I've found it also helps if the infant is snugly wrapped. I think it keeps her from realizing she is no longer being held.
I see so many people mentioning letting infant children "cry it out" to make them go to sleep on their own. I am not qualified to talk about this subject, but something inside me just finds that method horrifying.
I've read about a lot of mental issues having roots in early-childhood abandonment - apparently, when kids are left alone to cry, their body releases hormones which stop the crying, but doesn't stop the anxiety. In a nutshell, the baby still feels like crying, but it just doesn't.
There are probably studies (and I will appreciate all info given in the replies, be it studies or personal experience), but something about me just can't accept "cry it out" as a healthy method of raising infants. Infants should be in proximity of their mother until they are old enough to detach on their own - that's how it works for the whole animal kingdom, no?
I've read about a lot of mental issues having roots in early-childhood abandonment - apparently, when kids are left alone to cry, their body releases hormones which stop the crying, but doesn't stop the anxiety. In a nutshell, the baby still feels like crying, but it just doesn't.
There are probably studies (and I will appreciate all info given in the replies, be it studies or personal experience), but something about me just can't accept "cry it out" as a healthy method of raising infants. Infants should be in proximity of their mother until they are old enough to detach on their own - that's how it works for the whole animal kingdom, no?
Your comment shocked me, it shocked me so much to make this my first HN comment (maybe not the very first but it shocked me so much I am going against my „don’t get involved in discussions on the internet rule“)
I would like to give you a little background about my situation first. My first born is 2.7years old now. For the first 12 month of his life he cried. I don’t want to say he is a moody baby but he cried. For 5-7 hours a day every single day he cried. And one of us was with him for every single second of that. There was no evidence of any physical reason for his crying. Me being a „nerd“ was devastated as their was no way to just follow a certain formula to make him stop crying. And we tried everything. The only thing that finally made him stop crying after 12 months was … growing up. We have been told to let him cry by countless of people, even experts. I was lucky enough that my wife did some research herself and convinced me that pushing through tough times and staying at his side, or to say it differently „hurt“ ourselves, is in the end far less harmful then possibly hurting our baby by letting him „cry it out“.
Seeing so many comments here advising and lecturing on letting them cry it out hurts when for me it feels like the lazy way out of a problem that will fix itself if there is no physical reasons for the baby crying.
And since people ask for studies and evidence I found a great comment on a study that tried to proof the opposite. It’s linking a lot of studies that show how bad the crying it out method can be: https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....
I would like to give you a little background about my situation first. My first born is 2.7years old now. For the first 12 month of his life he cried. I don’t want to say he is a moody baby but he cried. For 5-7 hours a day every single day he cried. And one of us was with him for every single second of that. There was no evidence of any physical reason for his crying. Me being a „nerd“ was devastated as their was no way to just follow a certain formula to make him stop crying. And we tried everything. The only thing that finally made him stop crying after 12 months was … growing up. We have been told to let him cry by countless of people, even experts. I was lucky enough that my wife did some research herself and convinced me that pushing through tough times and staying at his side, or to say it differently „hurt“ ourselves, is in the end far less harmful then possibly hurting our baby by letting him „cry it out“.
Seeing so many comments here advising and lecturing on letting them cry it out hurts when for me it feels like the lazy way out of a problem that will fix itself if there is no physical reasons for the baby crying.
And since people ask for studies and evidence I found a great comment on a study that tried to proof the opposite. It’s linking a lot of studies that show how bad the crying it out method can be: https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....
Thank you for the input, and for the link to the commentary. It certainly raises some interesting questions.
I'm glad there are people out there that still care more about the well-being of their children than their own convenience. "Crying it out" does feel like a lazy way out from my perspective. The fact that so many parents are willing to do it, and yet become defensive in discussions like this... "Oh, you've never been a parent, you don't know what it's like"... Well, nobody forced them to have children. I don't know what they expected when they decided to have a kid. It's a massive undertake, and requires almost complete dedication. Yet it's so easy to just have a change of heart, feel trapped, blame the child for being a child. I can empathize, but I can't approve. If you have a child, its well being is more important than yours.
I'm glad there are people out there that still care more about the well-being of their children than their own convenience. "Crying it out" does feel like a lazy way out from my perspective. The fact that so many parents are willing to do it, and yet become defensive in discussions like this... "Oh, you've never been a parent, you don't know what it's like"... Well, nobody forced them to have children. I don't know what they expected when they decided to have a kid. It's a massive undertake, and requires almost complete dedication. Yet it's so easy to just have a change of heart, feel trapped, blame the child for being a child. I can empathize, but I can't approve. If you have a child, its well being is more important than yours.
there is a lot of culture behind this. friends i visited left their baby in a room crying while they were entertaining guests as if it was the most normal thing in the world. they were otherwise very loving and caring towards their children, so to me this seemed rather out of place. but it looked like that was just how they did it and i guess everyone else from their culture too.
i also think that many parents are being led to believe that letting the kid cry it out is for the well-being of the child. so some will do it even if it goes against their own feelings.
i also think that many parents are being led to believe that letting the kid cry it out is for the well-being of the child. so some will do it even if it goes against their own feelings.
Having a 6 year old refuse to sleep without a parent in bed because of "attachment parenting" tends to make one wonder if there's not some merit to having gone through some pain in the early stages.
Thankfully, there's someone selling every possible take on parenting advice to meet every intuition seeking affirmation. (I skip that part and just go straight to my own intuition. I think we need diversity.)
Thankfully, there's someone selling every possible take on parenting advice to meet every intuition seeking affirmation. (I skip that part and just go straight to my own intuition. I think we need diversity.)
> 6 year old refuse to sleep without a parent in bed
Ha 6 is nothing, my 14 year old still asks a few times a week. I gave up a long time ago, its my wife's problem now.
Ha 6 is nothing, my 14 year old still asks a few times a week. I gave up a long time ago, its my wife's problem now.
> Having a 6 year old refuse to sleep without a parent in bed because of "attachment parenting" tends to make one wonder if there's not some merit to having gone through some pain in the early stages.
How often does that happen in reality? Are there any studies? What is your personal experience? Honest question, as I really don't know.
> Thankfully, there's someone selling every possible take on parenting advice to meet every intuition seeking affirmation.
There's no need for such a dismissing attitude. I clearly stated I am not an authority on the subject and I'm welcoming all and any information in the replies. I'm just discussing here, and without actual knowledge, intuition is my starting point.
How often does that happen in reality? Are there any studies? What is your personal experience? Honest question, as I really don't know.
> Thankfully, there's someone selling every possible take on parenting advice to meet every intuition seeking affirmation.
There's no need for such a dismissing attitude. I clearly stated I am not an authority on the subject and I'm welcoming all and any information in the replies. I'm just discussing here, and without actual knowledge, intuition is my starting point.
Yes, my comment is my own personal experience, and my conclusion based on that experience. What sounded dismissive to you was a slightly cynical take on the parenting advice industry, and contains my advice to stick to your own intuition.
I apologize for my defensiveness - I thought that the second sentence was a snarky remark directed towards me.
How did you manage to get the 6 years old to finally sleep alone? Did it happen by itself or did you have to do something about it?
How did you manage to get the 6 years old to finally sleep alone? Did it happen by itself or did you have to do something about it?
Understandable, I was editing that part to soften it a bit before I even saw your reply.
6 year old is currently in that state. Again, even daring to admit something like that invites commentary from other parents how we did it wrong. Maybe so, but his mother is also a highly anxious person who could not handle letting a child be upset without comforting him. I also have a 12 year old who sleeps fine on her own now but was similar to about the same age.
So again, I don't see a way to be a parent other than intuition coupled with openmindedness, and that undoubtedly our own limitations or neuroses will end up affecting our children somehow (to the extent we don't or can't work on ourselves). It's somewhat of a tragic or at least deeply humbling experience.
6 year old is currently in that state. Again, even daring to admit something like that invites commentary from other parents how we did it wrong. Maybe so, but his mother is also a highly anxious person who could not handle letting a child be upset without comforting him. I also have a 12 year old who sleeps fine on her own now but was similar to about the same age.
So again, I don't see a way to be a parent other than intuition coupled with openmindedness, and that undoubtedly our own limitations or neuroses will end up affecting our children somehow (to the extent we don't or can't work on ourselves). It's somewhat of a tragic or at least deeply humbling experience.
> Having a 6 year old refuse to sleep without a parent in bed because of "attachment parenting" tends to make one wonder if there's not some merit to having gone through some pain in the early stages.
The work here is not to let the child cry in it's early days, but to put it in it's bed, come when it cries, calm it down, go back to bed, come again when it cries etc. Repeat until child sleeps.
The work here is not to let the child cry in it's early days, but to put it in it's bed, come when it cries, calm it down, go back to bed, come again when it cries etc. Repeat until child sleeps.
For the French speakers, the book by Brigitte Langevin Le Sommeil du nourrisson is highly recommended. It’s one of the best things that happened to mine and several friend’s couples at around the six months mark.
It’s a simple technique that helps the parents go through the one or two difficult nights where the child learns how to manage to sleep alone. It uses a stopwatch. First leave the child to cry for 15 seconds before going to comfort them. Always stay by the bed, giving only your presence. If the crying continues when you lay the baby in bed, add 15 seconds so wait for 30 seconds, etc. until reaching a plateau of five minutes. I don’t know anyone who reached the plateau, nor had to do it for more than three days.
My daughter falls asleep almost immediately and is much happier now that she’s properly rested. And as parents we’re happier too!
It’s a simple technique that helps the parents go through the one or two difficult nights where the child learns how to manage to sleep alone. It uses a stopwatch. First leave the child to cry for 15 seconds before going to comfort them. Always stay by the bed, giving only your presence. If the crying continues when you lay the baby in bed, add 15 seconds so wait for 30 seconds, etc. until reaching a plateau of five minutes. I don’t know anyone who reached the plateau, nor had to do it for more than three days.
My daughter falls asleep almost immediately and is much happier now that she’s properly rested. And as parents we’re happier too!
For the English speakers, there is Bringing up Bebe.
My wife and I are expecting our first in November and are currently reading - and loving - this book. It’s a great reframe.
My wife and I are expecting our first in November and are currently reading - and loving - this book. It’s a great reframe.
I know the theory for sure. In my experience kids could outcry their parents' patience, unfortunately.
Having a 6 year old refuse to sleep without a parent in bed because of "attachment parenting" tends to make one wonder if there's not some merit to having gone through some pain in the early stages
based on my experience i'd very much doubt that this sleep problem comes because of attachment parenting. there must have been some other experience that causes the child to have trouble sleeping alone.
the point of attachment parenting is exactly to help the children be more confident, so they need less attachment later. if that doesn't work then there must have been some other influence. elsewhere you mention a highly anxious mother. i don't know, i thought it would have to be something worse like divorce or death of a family member. but it's not surprising that the kids pick up the anxiousness of their mother.
but that doesn't mean attachment parenting is the wrong approach. it only means that it makes it more challenging, and while you could try letting kids cry it out, i believe that would only lead to a worse outcome. because while it works to let the kids sleep by themselves, it influences the relationship between the parents and the children.
(edited for clarification)
based on my experience i'd very much doubt that this sleep problem comes because of attachment parenting. there must have been some other experience that causes the child to have trouble sleeping alone.
the point of attachment parenting is exactly to help the children be more confident, so they need less attachment later. if that doesn't work then there must have been some other influence. elsewhere you mention a highly anxious mother. i don't know, i thought it would have to be something worse like divorce or death of a family member. but it's not surprising that the kids pick up the anxiousness of their mother.
but that doesn't mean attachment parenting is the wrong approach. it only means that it makes it more challenging, and while you could try letting kids cry it out, i believe that would only lead to a worse outcome. because while it works to let the kids sleep by themselves, it influences the relationship between the parents and the children.
(edited for clarification)
I'd still do "attachment parenting" over crying it out, but that's me. Just saying that every choice may have a downside that comes with the territory. Yes, I think anxiety and unwillingness to acknowledge it has played a huge part.
that anxiety is not your fault, nor is it your wife's fault. and unwillingness to acknowledge it may even be an inability to do so. a lot of people go through some kind of trauma during their childhood, and who knows what your wife went through to come out with that anxiety. it can take people decades to understand what their childhood did to their life, and for some therapy is needed to help unraveling things. as long as you both do your best, your children will understand when they grow up.
Yes, she went through 7 miscarriages and a history of mental illness in her family so I don't begrudge her holding her children while she can. It's not cost-free, though. Life has been educational :)
In parenting almost everything is highly arguable, because parenting is hard and we don't have much idea of what is the optimal path to it. But this is one of the few things where I'll stick my neck out and say I'm pretty confident anyone advocating to "cry it out" is just plain wrong.
Nature gives us a tiny creature, who (during the first stages of childhood) operates entirely or almost entirely on pure instinct, and it surprisingly gives it the ability to cry at a volume that puts Whitney Houston to shame, and makes you feel like a fire alarm has gone off. Why are they able to cry like that when they are still so small? To me, it's common sense that it's so that we feel compelled to answer their call and do something to stop the crying ASAP. That's the natural thing to do, the thing our species seems to be designed to do. Any other reaction would require very solid evidence to convince me it's a good idea. And no, "with this method the baby sleeps alone without crying in two weeks" is not valid evidence, because that's an argument based on convenience for parents in contemporary society, not on what's best for the baby.
Nature gives us a tiny creature, who (during the first stages of childhood) operates entirely or almost entirely on pure instinct, and it surprisingly gives it the ability to cry at a volume that puts Whitney Houston to shame, and makes you feel like a fire alarm has gone off. Why are they able to cry like that when they are still so small? To me, it's common sense that it's so that we feel compelled to answer their call and do something to stop the crying ASAP. That's the natural thing to do, the thing our species seems to be designed to do. Any other reaction would require very solid evidence to convince me it's a good idea. And no, "with this method the baby sleeps alone without crying in two weeks" is not valid evidence, because that's an argument based on convenience for parents in contemporary society, not on what's best for the baby.
Thank you!
We did "cry it out" at 8-9 months. You don't literally abandon them. We'd start by leaving for a minute, then 2 minutes, then 3 minutes, and so on. It took about 10-12 minutes the first night before they settled, shorter the next, still shorter the next, and by day 4 it they were fine.
People just won't get it unless they have kids, I don't see any way to explain it otherwise. Even then, some people will have some unicorn baby that is magical to raise. Teaching your child to self sooth is such an important skill.
I understand that parenting is hard. However, I can't help but be sceptical about the "self-soothing" theory - how do you know that infants aren't simply feeling helpless and stop crying because they feel that nobody is coming?
This is an open question, I'm not taking any side because I don't know. But any answer should be supported by some kind of rational argument, not the argument of convenience, i.e. my child stopped crying, therefore they're okay, because I feel better when they are not crying.
This is an open question, I'm not taking any side because I don't know. But any answer should be supported by some kind of rational argument, not the argument of convenience, i.e. my child stopped crying, therefore they're okay, because I feel better when they are not crying.
This is why people opt for gradual extinction, it allows you to comfort them and establish that parents are still around. By a certain age they have the capacity to fall asleep on their own, but are still accustomed to falling asleep before being put to bed (ime this was because we would feed-to-sleep, probably the mistake that led to having to sleep-train later, and it's possible that it could all have been avoided if we started the evening feed slightly earlier with the lights on by the time they reach 5-6mo). The goal is to provide comfort while allowing them to learn to fall asleep autonomously, or else you're looking at waking up in multiple times a night to hold them indefinitely, and that is unsustainable for working parents, nor is it particularly restful for the baby.
I'd expect that going from one extreme to the other (i.e. extinction) can lead to long panic crying and is unnecessarily harsh. By contrast if you rock your baby until they are comfortable and drowsy (but awake), then set them down, they'll be annoyed at the adjustment at first and protest but won't freak out. Then you can decide on whichever interval you want to check in (5-10 min), usually touching but not picking up. By the first night our kid fell asleep in 15 min, then 5 min the next. Then in no time he's sleeping through his nights.
Everyone gets better sleep and it was fairly painless. It doesn't have to depend on an infant feeling helpless - at bedtime they have high sleep pressure, they want to sleep. We told ourselves we'd abort the process if it things went awry. In the daytime they're as happy as ever.
I'd expect that going from one extreme to the other (i.e. extinction) can lead to long panic crying and is unnecessarily harsh. By contrast if you rock your baby until they are comfortable and drowsy (but awake), then set them down, they'll be annoyed at the adjustment at first and protest but won't freak out. Then you can decide on whichever interval you want to check in (5-10 min), usually touching but not picking up. By the first night our kid fell asleep in 15 min, then 5 min the next. Then in no time he's sleeping through his nights.
Everyone gets better sleep and it was fairly painless. It doesn't have to depend on an infant feeling helpless - at bedtime they have high sleep pressure, they want to sleep. We told ourselves we'd abort the process if it things went awry. In the daytime they're as happy as ever.
Because they still cry in other situations when they need help, but no longer very cry just because they are being laid down to sleep.
FYI "cry it out" is a form of sleep training to be done on a ~5-6 month old infant.
Any baby younger than that you basically should always attend to their needs and never let them cry without trying to soothe them [there can be a grey area from 3-5 months but still the general idea is the same].
Any baby younger than that you basically should always attend to their needs and never let them cry without trying to soothe them [there can be a grey area from 3-5 months but still the general idea is the same].
Even a 5-6 month old must feel pretty unloved. Just put yourself in their position: can't walk, can't talk, can't get out of bed, feels tired, feels all alone, cries for help and comfort but is ultimately ignored.
That's the most worst message you can send out to a person of any age.
I often hear people say: but they learn, they manipulate you as if a baby’s personality was naturally hostile and their main reason in life was betraying their parents. :)
That's the most worst message you can send out to a person of any age.
I often hear people say: but they learn, they manipulate you as if a baby’s personality was naturally hostile and their main reason in life was betraying their parents. :)
could you believe that "crying gets me attention, so I'll cry every time" might also be an unhealthy long term feedback loop?
Sure. I'm not saying mothers should keep their children under a glass bell until adulthood. When (slightly older) children start abusing their crying for attention, they should absolutely not be (completely) indulged.
But we're talking about infants here. I seriously doubt that infants are crying because they want to be entertained (as implied by "crying gets me attention") - I think that they cry because they are f-cking scared. Yes, they want attention - the same way that a person stuck in a dark alleyway with a gang of thugs wants the attention of a police officer.
Or am I missing something here?
But we're talking about infants here. I seriously doubt that infants are crying because they want to be entertained (as implied by "crying gets me attention") - I think that they cry because they are f-cking scared. Yes, they want attention - the same way that a person stuck in a dark alleyway with a gang of thugs wants the attention of a police officer.
Or am I missing something here?
I am going to guess you don't have children. I may be wrong, but I would be shocked that a parent would hold these beliefs. When you have an infant it is plain to see how infants use behaviors from the past that get them the results they want. That is what infants do. They are exploring the causal graph.
Not to say they never cry because they are scared, or hungry or a myriad of other things. The manner and duration of crying are things a parent can pick up on and your goal is to give the child what they need, not just what they want.
It is an arms race!
Yes I think people that don't have children don't understand how smart and manipulative infants can be in certain areas from a very very young age (3-4 months old), while at the same time being horribly stupid and incompetent in others.
But getting attention from their parents is one of the areas they are very advanced!
But getting attention from their parents is one of the areas they are very advanced!
I do have a kid and I'm pretty sure children aren't manipulative at all at 3-4 months old. They just operate on immediate needs and instinct. Manipulative behavior starts at around 1 year old, beliefs of small infants being manipulative are typically just projection (you feel angry because your baby wakes you up every 2 hours, so you think it's manipulating you, and that makes you feel better about being so angry).
Of course they are good at getting attention, but that's because they need attention. That's why nature gave them the ability to cry surprisingly loud from the moment they're born.
Of course they are good at getting attention, but that's because they need attention. That's why nature gave them the ability to cry surprisingly loud from the moment they're born.
Perhaps the 4 month old is not "manipulative" per se, but it also cannot be argued that the kid is doing much of a cost-benefit analysis as to whether it's worth waking Mom and Dad up for this (whim/legitimate need).
Thank you for pointing this out. I hope your honest and direct response opens the eyes of some of the people in this discussion to rethink whether their 4 months old is manipulative or is simply scared of being alone…
Sorry to say. But this is not true in most cases!
Manipulative thinking requires a sense of fully empathy which kids do not develop until they are 3 years old or even older!
If a 3 months old is „manipulating“ you it was pure coincidence!
i have kids and i agree 100% with the comment by bheadmaster
I am going to guess you never took a minute to check the development a human brain undergoes.
It takes month until the human brain can form basic memories. Until then only things that they can actually see, exist.
Understanding that consequences exist take another couple of month. Using them to their advantage consciously is a mental stunt infants can for sure not do.
Seeing it as a correlation in these things is highly likely your human brain trying to rationalize the often irrational behavior of infants.
PS. I don’t want to imply your kids where not able to do such things. It would be a rare behavior though. PPS. Father of at least one
PS. I don’t want to imply your kids where not able to do such things. It would be a rare behavior though. PPS. Father of at least one
The right response is to ALWAYS react to crying by calming the child, and if the crying was not warranted or necessary, explain that to the child AFTER you have calmed it down.
Children are smart enough to understand sentences like "This is really not something to get upset about", AFTER they have calmed down, and explained in a loving matter.
Children are smart enough to understand sentences like "This is really not something to get upset about", AFTER they have calmed down, and explained in a loving matter.
I believe the kid is unable
to manipulate until they are at least year old and the crying usually means something.
Infants can use crying as a method for getting attention (even if nothing is "wrong") around 3-4 months.
They aren't necessity trying to manipulate you but they are constantly experimenting and if certain behaviors get them what they want they will continue to do them.
They aren't necessity trying to manipulate you but they are constantly experimenting and if certain behaviors get them what they want they will continue to do them.
> they are constantly experimenting and if certain behaviors get them what they want
I am fairly doubtful that infants can want things that they don't need. If infants cry, it's because they feel pain - I don't see any other explanation, and projecting adult traits (such as wanting things they don't need) onto infants doesn't really make sense to me. Of course they "want" their parent's attention. They're infants, they probably feel pain when their parents are not around.
Of course, there is a period around ~2 years old when babies start experimenting with crossing the lines to see what they can and cannot get away with. But at age, they aren't infants anymore.
I am fairly doubtful that infants can want things that they don't need. If infants cry, it's because they feel pain - I don't see any other explanation, and projecting adult traits (such as wanting things they don't need) onto infants doesn't really make sense to me. Of course they "want" their parent's attention. They're infants, they probably feel pain when their parents are not around.
Of course, there is a period around ~2 years old when babies start experimenting with crossing the lines to see what they can and cannot get away with. But at age, they aren't infants anymore.
Not only that, but at a certain age they can learn to get the things (comfort, sleep, etc) they want in ways other than crying. Past a certain age, always responding to crying right away is stunting that ability.
The most popular method for doing this (Ferber) gradually ramps the crying period from 3 minutes to 20 minutes. Anything longer than that and the kid probably actually needs something.
I see. I suppose just experiencing that parent is "out there" and will come periodically to check on them might make the infants feel calmer. It definitely seems better than just leaving the child to cry the whole night.
It is definitely not letting baby cry for extended periods.
The naming / branding of sleep training methods in parenting is abysmal. “Cry it out” is also called “extinction.”
Like who came up with this? It’s terrible, and totally reasonable to reject the notion based on the naming alone.
That said the right way works. Even if you know all of the technique and carry it forward faithfully it can take a lot of bravery to go ahead with it.
Anyone on the fence with this I get it. There’s a subreddit, /r/sleeptrain where you will find others in your spot.
The naming / branding of sleep training methods in parenting is abysmal. “Cry it out” is also called “extinction.”
Like who came up with this? It’s terrible, and totally reasonable to reject the notion based on the naming alone.
That said the right way works. Even if you know all of the technique and carry it forward faithfully it can take a lot of bravery to go ahead with it.
Anyone on the fence with this I get it. There’s a subreddit, /r/sleeptrain where you will find others in your spot.
Extinction actually has a specific meaning in behaviourism, it refers to extinguishing an unwanted behaviour (signalling at night) rather than wanting to extinguish the baby - it's a term used in behaviourism and can be applied to any unwanted behaviour, not just crying at night.
The connotations of using that term are rather unfortunate but there's a reason why that name is used.
The connotations of using that term are rather unfortunate but there's a reason why that name is used.
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Well, he's an anecdote for you - with my kids it was fine. You let them cry and poke your head in every 10 minutes or so to make sure they know they're not alone, but that the parent is right outside. Eventually they get the point. And your reward is a stable sleep cycle - for us usually this bought us a few months at a clip until it went to hell again.
Absolutely agree, My psychologist was horrified when I mentioned cry it out to him when we were talking about the pending birth of my son, basically saying that babies don’t have the ability to soothe themselves, and it’s something they have to learn from parents. His reaction and explanation has stuck with me, and I’m glad we never went down that path.
Because it is absolutely horrifying and heartless. Only an absolute horrible parent would do something like that and ones who would like to raise kids who grow up feeling unloved.
These scientists can't model emotions. So they better stay in lane of testing equipments and drugs
I have twins, they share a room. they are 19 months old. They have been sleeping through the night since 10 months old. My technique is I put them to bed fully awake at the same time every night. They each get a half full bottle, and I say good night. Before I goto bed, I put another half full bottle in their cribs, and they find it on their own when they wake up. And then I see them in the morning. I had to let them cry it out for a few weeks, but now they just goto bed with no crying. In the morning they talk to each other until I go into the room.
I couldn't imagine doing it any other way. too exhausting for everybody. Being able to goto sleep on your own is a skill! And it's a self taught thing.
I couldn't imagine doing it any other way. too exhausting for everybody. Being able to goto sleep on your own is a skill! And it's a self taught thing.
> In the morning they talk to each other until I go into the room.
Brings a tear to the eye.
I think (because I have no experience) twins must have a deeper human connection than non-twins, and if so, I wonder if can / is applied to other relationships. I wonder if there's any vestigial evolutionary benefit.
Semi-related funny story: When our second was old enough to go into a cot, rather than a bassinette, we tried putting both the kids into the same room when they slept. It was fine... for the few minutes it took for the youngest to realise that there was "someone else" in her room, and started scream-crying, which woke up and set-off the eldest into scream-crying.
We thought the fucking room must have been on fire or something, never moved so fast in unison with my wife before or since. It was existential dread at the time. It's hilarious now.
(It really was just that the youngest wasn't used to having the eldest also in the room, it worked fine together for a few years after that until they eventually wanted their own rooms - between times, however, they were actually comforted by having each other in the same room - also brings a tear to my eye.)
Brings a tear to the eye.
I think (because I have no experience) twins must have a deeper human connection than non-twins, and if so, I wonder if can / is applied to other relationships. I wonder if there's any vestigial evolutionary benefit.
Semi-related funny story: When our second was old enough to go into a cot, rather than a bassinette, we tried putting both the kids into the same room when they slept. It was fine... for the few minutes it took for the youngest to realise that there was "someone else" in her room, and started scream-crying, which woke up and set-off the eldest into scream-crying.
We thought the fucking room must have been on fire or something, never moved so fast in unison with my wife before or since. It was existential dread at the time. It's hilarious now.
(It really was just that the youngest wasn't used to having the eldest also in the room, it worked fine together for a few years after that until they eventually wanted their own rooms - between times, however, they were actually comforted by having each other in the same room - also brings a tear to my eye.)
> I think (because I have no experience) twins must have a deeper human connection
For all its worth, I know at least 2 pairs of twins who cannot stand each other.
For all its worth, I know at least 2 pairs of twins who cannot stand each other.
Definitely an addition to the collection of anecdotes.
My dad is an identical twin, and I get along with my cousins from his twin brother better than my other cousins. There's a gender / age difference with the other cousins though, so may not count for much.
Further question to the ether: Do identical twins get along better than non-identical twins?
My dad is an identical twin, and I get along with my cousins from his twin brother better than my other cousins. There's a gender / age difference with the other cousins though, so may not count for much.
Further question to the ether: Do identical twins get along better than non-identical twins?
No judgement here, but I think I can hear a pediatric dentist down the street streaming some obscenities of some sort.
Cutting edge research indeed. We need to spread the news, tell all the parents that carrying kids helps sooth them. There is no way that parents could have come up and tried this on their own.
I independently found my way to a similar approach. However, having resources available to new parents is immensely valuable when you're at your wits end.
Actually, you could say the same about all manners of recording history; Story telling, art, education, music.
Why bother with any of it if people can figure it out for themselves? Because we progress further when we work as a team and share knowledge.
Actually, you could say the same about all manners of recording history; Story telling, art, education, music.
Why bother with any of it if people can figure it out for themselves? Because we progress further when we work as a team and share knowledge.
Be kind. Don't be snarky.
Please don't post shallow dismissals.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
To be fair, some of us (me included) are about to be parents for the first time. I'll take all the good pointers I can get, obvious or not.
Don’t worry, this one will come up naturally.
In general, I recommend taking all advice with a grain of salt: not because it is bad advice, but because no kids are the same, and what works with one will not necessarily work with another. Just take it easy and try to not worry too much. The unbroken chain of your ancestors have all figured it out, and so can you. And congratulations!
In general, I recommend taking all advice with a grain of salt: not because it is bad advice, but because no kids are the same, and what works with one will not necessarily work with another. Just take it easy and try to not worry too much. The unbroken chain of your ancestors have all figured it out, and so can you. And congratulations!
And, what works on one kid one day, may not work the next!
Yeah as someone else said, you will figure this out. There's only so many things you can do with a crying baby. It's completely natural that you will walk and hold them and figure out a rhythm. I've figured out with my second that lighting levels are important. Timing the darkness works well, and I figured it out by walking around with her but the lighting is really variable in my house and going too light or too dark will startle her. Probably could do a study on hoe gradual shifting of lights effects baby.
I also find it hilarious when studies point out the blatantly obvious - but I'd rather see this way more often than tons of unreplicable crap churned out.
That wasn't the point. The point was that you don't go from walking the baby to sleep to putting the baby down horizontally. You sit down for 5-8 minutes first, during which time the baby transitions into a deeper sleep that won't be disturbed by being laid down.
If you go from walking to putting the baby down horizontally, the baby will often be awakened by the sensation of falling backwards, and wake up.
If you go from walking to putting the baby down horizontally, the baby will often be awakened by the sensation of falling backwards, and wake up.
That's hardly a nontrivial thing to try, and indeed, I came up with this genius idea independently. Should have published it!
Do you have children of your own?
Do you have children of your own?
I do. No one is saying "no parent has ever tried this genius idea". They're just saying that it's useful to have a study on it, and parameters around how long one should remain sitting before attempting to lay the baby down. Also, you're moving the goalposts. Your original comment said derided the idea about walking a baby to sleep. But that shows you missed the point of the study, which was not about walking at all, but rather the next step.
That step is apparently not super obvious because this grabbed over 300 upvotes on HN, no small feat.
Even if it was obvious to some, parents of newborns are often (always?) sleep-deprived, so it might be hard for them to remember how well it worked to hold the baby still for 2, 4, or 6 minutes. I didn't have especially difficult sleepers, but it would have been nice to have seen this data back when we had tiny ones.
That step is apparently not super obvious because this grabbed over 300 upvotes on HN, no small feat.
Even if it was obvious to some, parents of newborns are often (always?) sleep-deprived, so it might be hard for them to remember how well it worked to hold the baby still for 2, 4, or 6 minutes. I didn't have especially difficult sleepers, but it would have been nice to have seen this data back when we had tiny ones.
Sleep on a human being for the first year was the only solution for us
Watch out for tongue tie: if the connective tissue that's right underneath the tongue goes too far forward, it can make it so the baby can't breath normally through their nose when on their back. If your baby sleeps with their mouth open, that's a sign. Our baby had this and couldn't sleep on her back until we got it fixed. I am not a doctor—talk to someone competent first!
Tongue tie is so heavily over-diagnosed and even treated right now. Just an aside to those in the thread, get a diagnosis from a pediatric dentist or other doctor, not a lactation consultant and not from the doctor that is responsible for doing the revision.
What are the percentages? What's the correct rate and the false positive diagnosis rate?
Or are you just anecdoting?
Or are you just anecdoting?
It is a complex issue. Tongue tie is a real thing that causes real problems and lack of a diagnosis can lead to a lot of unneeded suffering and distress. Compounding this pediatricians are often not very responsive to breastfeeding concerns.
However, the placebo effect here is really strong. Firstly because tongue tie revisions are to fix issues that very often are the kind of thing that resolves on it's own. Secondly because parents are told they will see some sort of fix and they are putting their child through a procedure than can be painful so they will really want to see an improvement.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5804819/
"A desire to increase rates of breast feeding initiation and absence of standardized criteria for the diagnosis of ankyloglossia have resulted in runaway rates of frenotomy for newborn infants in some parts of Canada."
https://internationalbreastfeedingjournal.biomedcentral.com/...
You'll see a really unfortunate statement like this in almost every article discussing the issue "Randomized controlled trials of optimized lactation support vs. frenotomy and of scissors vs laser in performance of frenotomy are needed."
https://undark.org/2021/05/26/hidden-tongue-ties/
However, the placebo effect here is really strong. Firstly because tongue tie revisions are to fix issues that very often are the kind of thing that resolves on it's own. Secondly because parents are told they will see some sort of fix and they are putting their child through a procedure than can be painful so they will really want to see an improvement.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5804819/
"A desire to increase rates of breast feeding initiation and absence of standardized criteria for the diagnosis of ankyloglossia have resulted in runaway rates of frenotomy for newborn infants in some parts of Canada."
https://internationalbreastfeedingjournal.biomedcentral.com/...
You'll see a really unfortunate statement like this in almost every article discussing the issue "Randomized controlled trials of optimized lactation support vs. frenotomy and of scissors vs laser in performance of frenotomy are needed."
https://undark.org/2021/05/26/hidden-tongue-ties/
This might depend on where you are. If you're from the UK, the only way of getting this diagnosed within any reasonable time frame is a lactation consultant. Most NHS staff is not trained to diagnose tongue tie, which is not surprising given their historical roots.
Tongue tie was quite obvious for my first daughter (it even runs in my family), but hospital staff still refused to do a proper diagnosis and said it was fine. It was not, and impacted the breastfeeding.
Tongue tie was quite obvious for my first daughter (it even runs in my family), but hospital staff still refused to do a proper diagnosis and said it was fine. It was not, and impacted the breastfeeding.
Tongue and mouth ties can also impact breastfeeding. Def something to be aware of!
And the fix is pretty straightforward, at least for us. Dr snipped and applied pressure, baby seemed to not be in too much discomfort. In and out.
I'm literally implementing seated portion as a I write this comment.
This is my third kid, and we definitely discovered this the hard way during our first baby. There are a few windows that you can soothe and successfully put a baby down to sleep. Despite all our kids being otherwise different, putting them down as babies worked exactly how this method describes.
This is my third kid, and we definitely discovered this the hard way during our first baby. There are a few windows that you can soothe and successfully put a baby down to sleep. Despite all our kids being otherwise different, putting them down as babies worked exactly how this method describes.
I found that a SNOO was very effective in the first 6 months. It is expensive, but it was way better than being even more sleep deprived. It plays white noise and rocks the baby if it senses them stirring. https://www.happiestbaby.com/
For those who intend to have one child only, they now have a rental program where they ship you the SNOO, you use it up to 6 months, and ship it back. Works out to about the same as what you'd lose by buying it new and reselling it at the end. Highly recommended!
Use the hairdryer. It works like wonders.
I put my infant in a carrier in front of the washing machine and dryer a couple of times. It was great!
Yeah, it's like inside momma's belly.
They should teach this to new parents before they let them leave the hospital. My wife and I went to the hospital’s parenting class before the birth of our first child. They focused on a lot of skills for infant care but not much on new parent sanity.
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As the parent of a 6.5 month old, this is very interesting.
We had figured out that once she falls asleep, we wait 8-10 minutes for her to get really deeply asleep before putting her down. But the transport to calm crying, that is really going to come in handy.
We had figured out that once she falls asleep, we wait 8-10 minutes for her to get really deeply asleep before putting her down. But the transport to calm crying, that is really going to come in handy.
This works with our boy. We have a bedside digital clock, and I've found he requires 5-7 additional minutes after he closes his eyes and appears to be asleep before I can put him down. Any earlier and he'll wake up and cry.
I feel a bit left out by the authors only talking about 'maternal holding'.
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I must be lucky. Our new born is out after a few minutes on the pacifier. Normally out until we wake him for the next feed.
Haha I'm sure there's an interesting story behind what lead to this research.
No one’s mentioned the Ferber method yet, it’s what got my daughter to start falling asleep on her own and do full nights at 5 months old. Took about 4 nights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferber_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferber_method
This was called "controlled crying" when we did it, and it worked a treat on our first and, as far as I can recall, wasn't necessary for our second (yes, lucky!). It was surprisingly quickly effective, maybe a week. Recommended.
I do remember that quite sharp 'parental pain' (it's hard to describe, it's like an intrinsic 'hunger to help') of knowing that we have to get through the next X minutes of baby crying without going in there. It's good to have a supportive partner so you can both keep each other in check (or to put it how I'd prefer: "well, we're both bad parents if this doesn't work, it's not just me").
I do remember that quite sharp 'parental pain' (it's hard to describe, it's like an intrinsic 'hunger to help') of knowing that we have to get through the next X minutes of baby crying without going in there. It's good to have a supportive partner so you can both keep each other in check (or to put it how I'd prefer: "well, we're both bad parents if this doesn't work, it's not just me").
I personally disagree with this. I think that instinct is very meaningful and valid, and most people would be better off co-sleeping with their children rather than teaching them how to be alone more effectively when they’re too young to have done so in the wild.
i don't know if we were just lucky, but co-sleeping worked very well for us.
This is an excellent method. Our first kid was very difficult, but that changed after learning the Ferber technique. We've used it with subsequent children with great success.
We’re 3 kids into a “softer” version of the Ferber method and also report that it works well.
Same here we transitioned at 8 months old from sleeping in our room in a side sleeper to sleeping in his own room on his own bed by using the Ferber method, it worked great.
We did soften it somewhat by setting the maximum interval at 7 minutes (we couldn't stand longer than that). It might have slightly reduced how quickly the method works (although we started to really see great progress 4 days in which is in line with the book).v
We did soften it somewhat by setting the maximum interval at 7 minutes (we couldn't stand longer than that). It might have slightly reduced how quickly the method works (although we started to really see great progress 4 days in which is in line with the book).v
Bleh. Has academia run out of topics of research? Every parent knows this. Next research try to establish that lullaby or singing to baby actualy works in making them asleep! Nonsense use of public money.
Moreover, this is more about feeding the baby than moving it. Feed the baby and walk it around a little and they sleep. Try this on a hungry baby and see fall apart! Useless research!
Moreover, this is more about feeding the baby than moving it. Feed the baby and walk it around a little and they sleep. Try this on a hungry baby and see fall apart! Useless research!
The irony of this comment at the bottom of 200+ comments arguing about what every parent knows
He he. At times world needs reinforcement
- everyone wakes halfway up multiple times each night to see if everything is OK. Make sure they don't fall asleep with anything that can't stay with them during the night: music, tv, light, food, drink or another person (you or others).
- to teach kids to sleep, make them feel safe about it. What I did was walking in at a fixed schedule, starting at exact 3 minutes between the first night (I used a digital kitchen timer back then, a smartphone later) and increasing by two minutes every night. Surprisingly fast, my kids learn that I didn't disappear, and he'll be around even if they don't cry. Once they realized this they started playing with the toy the were allowed to keep in the bed. But, keep in mind: don't stop coming back if they are silent. A major part of the idea is that they realize that they don't have to do anything to make sure we don't forget them. Oh: and keep a very close ear with them in the beginning so they don't wake up and think they are alone.
I never really could get myself to accept the idea that "they need to cry themselves to sleep" and every thing I tried before this didn't work on my oldest.
This worked on my oldest kid, she started sleeping through the night within a week and also became calmer and I got my sleep back. With the rest of them it took 2-3 days only since I started earlier (shortly after they was a year old).
Maybe other methods work too, but this was easy for us and we didn't have to let the kids cry to sleep or anything else I have seen recommended online that I didn't like.