Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud(cnbc.com)
cnbc.com
Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html
109 comments
Some more wild shady spy activity against whistleblowers documented here: https://twitter.com/HindenburgRes/status/1575557272532811778
I remember that company from an FT article where they were forced to admit that they'd let their trucks roll down a gentle slope for promotional videos to give the impression that they could drive. Not surprised by this outcome, good if they get caught, albeit a bit late.
It’s about time. I just can’t believe how fraud of such a scale can happen. Reminds me of Bernie Madoff.
Nikola is still a $1.3 billion company if you really want your mind blown.
That's the true insanity here. Did they ever sell a truck? In the meanwhile those un-innovative legacy manufacturers have the first working protypes on the road. And where is the Tesla Semi again?
All they've basically done is decided to work with Iveco to electrify existing S-Way trucks.
"As part of the cooperation – which incidentally includes CNH Industrial’s two commercial vehicles and drive brands Iveco and FPT Industrial – it will take over Nikola’s electrical technology and infotainment system. The semi will also be given a design jointly developed by Nikola and Italdesign."
"As part of the cooperation – which incidentally includes CNH Industrial’s two commercial vehicles and drive brands Iveco and FPT Industrial – it will take over Nikola’s electrical technology and infotainment system. The semi will also be given a design jointly developed by Nikola and Italdesign."
So badge engineering and electrifying existing vehickes, at a shockingly low volume, and based on fraud to hyoe all that justifies a 1 billion evaluation nowadys. Nice.
The Tesla Semi is being produced right now for some contract deliveries, announced last week.
They announced a lot of things since the announcement in 2017 though. Let's not take Tesla's announcements as anything else than stunts for now, like, really.
According to wikipedia they sold 93 trucks yes. All recalled because a seat-belt issue (that's how I got '93'), but it seems they have some trucks on the road right now, whatever the quality (and unlike Tesla, btw)
Nikola delivered its first "Nikola Tre" electric truck on December 17, 2021. It announced the start of serial production in March 2022, and delivered 48 trucks in Q2 2022.
According to the company, they remain on target to deliver 300-500 trucks by the end of 2022.
According to the company, they remain on target to deliver 300-500 trucks by the end of 2022.
Stock markets were broken, and probably still are to some degree. Just look at valuations of "tech" companies and it should be quite clear why the numbers are so big.
That's the point, it's like they were super sloppy in the due diligence process/es, if there was any at all.
Far bigger frauds have happened. I'd argue Nikola's fraud was pretty minor in comparison to the likes of Madoff, Enron, or Theranos.
At least the only victims here were investors - many of whom probably realised or suspected that Milton was exaggerating the company's progress, but were happy to play along as long as it kept pumping the value of their investments.
At least the only victims here were investors - many of whom probably realised or suspected that Milton was exaggerating the company's progress, but were happy to play along as long as it kept pumping the value of their investments.
Check Nikola spots like the subreddit, Twitter, Stocktwits. Lots of bag holders who are technically investors, but really just ordinary middle class people in deep losses from Nikola.
Still nothing close to the examples you gave but Theranos is as blatantly a con from the get go as Nikola.
Still nothing close to the examples you gave but Theranos is as blatantly a con from the get go as Nikola.
I think the difference with Theranos is that most of us were genuinely surprised and shocked when it all started to unravel to the extent that it did.
With Nikola, there were plenty of skeptics right from the start. The only surprise what that it went on for as long as it did, and that the stock price kept going up even after much of their deception was exposed.
With Nikola, there were plenty of skeptics right from the start. The only surprise what that it went on for as long as it did, and that the stock price kept going up even after much of their deception was exposed.
I remember when some FAANG buddies of mine were gloating about gains made of NKLA.
It reminded me no one gives a fuck if their money is made by corruption, fraud or unethical activity. The world is truly a "Fuck you, I've got mine" type of place. Never forget it, and never trust anyone.
I see the same story playing out in the Celsius network crap.
It reminded me no one gives a fuck if their money is made by corruption, fraud or unethical activity. The world is truly a "Fuck you, I've got mine" type of place. Never forget it, and never trust anyone.
I see the same story playing out in the Celsius network crap.
It really isn’t. I’m kind of fed up with people, who live at a time of unprecedented wealth freedom and opportunity, complaining how bad things are while the state of the world around them improves dramatically.
I was reading about poverty in the UK recently, the numbers are poor, but then I noticed that poverty is defined by a proportion of average wages. That means as wages go up, so does the poverty threshold. It turns out people in poverty in the UK now have double the spending power of those in the 1980s. I’m not saying poverty doesn’t exist, or that these people don’t need help. There are real issues of health, nutrition, opportunities and fairness. No question, but when someone compares poverty statistics over time, they’re not comparing the same things at all.
My wife is Chinese so I’ve seen the transformation there, where hundreds of millions of people have been elevated not just out of poverty, but into the urban middle class. Africa is undergoing a huge transformation. I’ve been lucky enough to do a lot of travelling going back to the 90s, so I’ve seen how much places have changed over the decades. It turns out individual economic and social freedoms, of property, labour, travel and association work. Give people opportunities and they build vibrant productive societies. I’ve watched them do it.
I was reading about poverty in the UK recently, the numbers are poor, but then I noticed that poverty is defined by a proportion of average wages. That means as wages go up, so does the poverty threshold. It turns out people in poverty in the UK now have double the spending power of those in the 1980s. I’m not saying poverty doesn’t exist, or that these people don’t need help. There are real issues of health, nutrition, opportunities and fairness. No question, but when someone compares poverty statistics over time, they’re not comparing the same things at all.
My wife is Chinese so I’ve seen the transformation there, where hundreds of millions of people have been elevated not just out of poverty, but into the urban middle class. Africa is undergoing a huge transformation. I’ve been lucky enough to do a lot of travelling going back to the 90s, so I’ve seen how much places have changed over the decades. It turns out individual economic and social freedoms, of property, labour, travel and association work. Give people opportunities and they build vibrant productive societies. I’ve watched them do it.
America and Europe are much lower trust than they used to be. Can you leave a laptop unattended in busy Starbucks downtown in major cities? How much does "the honor system" still work everywhere in society?
Japan is now the benchmark for high trust societies, and they copied a lot from Germany (educational system, civil codes, uniforms, many loan words for things still a reminder) nearer its social peak to get there. The results are manners, cleanliness, very safe, and almost no homeless.
So we know what could be in US and Europe is way more: at least at the level of Japan. I argue even above (if Japan copies the very-foreign Germans it means something was good about Germans).
Japan is now the benchmark for high trust societies, and they copied a lot from Germany (educational system, civil codes, uniforms, many loan words for things still a reminder) nearer its social peak to get there. The results are manners, cleanliness, very safe, and almost no homeless.
So we know what could be in US and Europe is way more: at least at the level of Japan. I argue even above (if Japan copies the very-foreign Germans it means something was good about Germans).
People think things are getting worse, and that their friends and neighbours with different political views are their enemies, or outright traitors. They think these things because that’s what they are constantly being told in the media, on the left and right. Fear sells.
My mother is a good example, she’s a comfortably retired ex teacher who owns her own house, has a cottage in France and lives in an idyllic country village in rural Britain. Yet she lives in fear of immigrants and refugees coming to rape and steal, and socialists destroying everything good and right, because the Daily Mail is keeping her in a state of constant terror.
My mother is a good example, she’s a comfortably retired ex teacher who owns her own house, has a cottage in France and lives in an idyllic country village in rural Britain. Yet she lives in fear of immigrants and refugees coming to rape and steal, and socialists destroying everything good and right, because the Daily Mail is keeping her in a state of constant terror.
Same with mine in the US. I have yet to see these terrifying murderous people.
> It turns out people in poverty in the UK now have double the spending power of those in the 1980s.
Do they have double the access to affordable housing? Or to good-enough and cheap healthcare? (I know about the NHS, I also know that their waiting list has exceeded 7 million recently). Can they send their kids to schools good enough for those kids to be able to have a real chance in life later on?
Because, at the end, poverty is defined by the answers to those questions, it doesn't matter that lots of "poor" people can now purchase smartphones and flat TVs while Queen Victoria 150 years ago couldn't.
Do they have double the access to affordable housing? Or to good-enough and cheap healthcare? (I know about the NHS, I also know that their waiting list has exceeded 7 million recently). Can they send their kids to schools good enough for those kids to be able to have a real chance in life later on?
Because, at the end, poverty is defined by the answers to those questions, it doesn't matter that lots of "poor" people can now purchase smartphones and flat TVs while Queen Victoria 150 years ago couldn't.
Most of those NHS waiting lists didn’t even exist back in the 80s. That’s another case where a “worse” statistic hides a massive underlying improvement. Were spending twice as much on health care now as a proportion of GDP, and our GDP has doubled in real terms.
I use the 80s as my reference because those are the days of my youth, when I became politically aware so it’s the benchmark I look back to.
I’ve looked for studies on access to education and outcomes for those in poverty over time and not come up with anything. Lots of studies how poverty affects education, but none so far on how that has changed. Anyone know?
I use the 80s as my reference because those are the days of my youth, when I became politically aware so it’s the benchmark I look back to.
I’ve looked for studies on access to education and outcomes for those in poverty over time and not come up with anything. Lots of studies how poverty affects education, but none so far on how that has changed. Anyone know?
I find these numbers a bit weak. Your life is not a flat basket of goods, it's more of a graph (pyramid would say maslow) and today it's hard to get a flat but easy to get Gbps link on your flagship smartphone, but it doesn't make your life great in the end.
This is a common rhetoric by [neo]liberals like Bill Gates, Pinker (both friends with Epstein too…), Peterson, Bari Weiss. Pinker has at least one book wholly focused on this rhetoric. The problem is, this stuff could have been said 20, 50, or 150 years ago. Always can say “look at all the progress, why are people complaining about stuff”. And this is what has happened historically. People want to keep the status quo. Not rock anything.
If we all thought this way, then gay people will never get to the point of being treated like any other person instead of having more difficult lives in many places still. Can substitute gay people for all sorts like trans people or black people/minorities in some circumstances.
If we all thought this way, then gay people will never get to the point of being treated like any other person instead of having more difficult lives in many places still. Can substitute gay people for all sorts like trans people or black people/minorities in some circumstances.
Dissatisfaction is the spur toward progress, but the point is there is progress. It's complaining that things are always getting worse, or even that progress isn't possible and things are always getting worse that winds me up. Maybe being in my 50s gives me a different view of it than those much younger.
I still don’t understand how what you wrote is different than what some people said 50 or 150 years ago. We now know from hindsight, the people who were doing your rhetoric in the past in enough circumstances where they wanted the status quo to remain as their life is going well enough. IE civil rights, suffrage, slavery, and so on.
The person who you responded to didn’t say things are always getting worse. They implied progress isn’t possible, but it was specifically about money. It’s not even about progress in general. Which were your issues.
I do agree the commenter was far too negative and being black and white. Especially for something as general as making money.
I wonder if age is the main reason. I know people more radical than me who are past 50. My principles personally have only been more reinforced since I was in HS. Which is 15+ years ago. World and politic views makes sense to me as the biggest reason for how both of us see this. Just my hunch, not saying you’re wrong.
The person who you responded to didn’t say things are always getting worse. They implied progress isn’t possible, but it was specifically about money. It’s not even about progress in general. Which were your issues.
I do agree the commenter was far too negative and being black and white. Especially for something as general as making money.
I wonder if age is the main reason. I know people more radical than me who are past 50. My principles personally have only been more reinforced since I was in HS. Which is 15+ years ago. World and politic views makes sense to me as the biggest reason for how both of us see this. Just my hunch, not saying you’re wrong.
I'm fed up with people saying, "it was much worse $x years ago, so stop moaning".
I'll bet you aren't struggling to feed your family, heat your home or pay your rent in this period of "unprecedented wealth freedom and opportunity" for the UK.
I'll bet you aren't struggling to feed your family, heat your home or pay your rent in this period of "unprecedented wealth freedom and opportunity" for the UK.
That's right I'm not. Not anymore an I know some people are. You've already read my comment where I say there are real problems in our society. There's more to do. But progress is possible and is happening, things aren't constantly getting worse, it is possible to address a lot of these issues.
Now is't the best time to be saying this, we're in for a tough winter, but modern western liberal society is the most powerful engine for making the world better humanity has ever had.
Now is't the best time to be saying this, we're in for a tough winter, but modern western liberal society is the most powerful engine for making the world better humanity has ever had.
I want to see a fund that shorts whatever the fintech bros were shilling 6 months ago.
for what purpose? if you want a short position just short ARKK
The SARK (Short ARK) ETF has almost doubled since it's inception last year.
https://www.axsinvestments.com/sark/
https://www.axsinvestments.com/sark/
[deleted]
> buddies of mine
Yeah, your anecdote says more about you than it does about the world in general.
Yeah, your anecdote says more about you than it does about the world in general.
europeanguy(2)
fastball(1)
Then Musk with his "Paint it black" Autopilot/FSD video should be in jail for fraud as well. What is the difference here? Both products weren't nowhere near where marketing was trying to show.
Also "Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured." was complete securities fraud and he paid for the charges.
So by paying for the charges, he told the SEC he is a fraudster without telling them he is a fraudster.
So by paying for the charges, he told the SEC he is a fraudster without telling them he is a fraudster.
Except he actually did consider it and negotiated with investors. How is it fraught when you investigate a business opportunity?
So many salty shorts itt.
So many salty shorts itt.
"Funding secured" it not exactly the same as "will negotiate with investors", is it?
Maybe he did. But a letter of intent isn’t the same as a contract. Yet it warrants the statement “funding secured”.
Maybe he did... What we know for sure is that he settled with the SEC and that a court ruled recently that there was nothing concrete and that it was inaccurate to say so.
"No reasonable jury could find that Mr. Musk did not act recklessly given his clear knowledge of the discussions."
"There had been no discussion about what the purchase price would be for a share of stock. Nor had there been any discussion about what percentage of the company the PIF would own or the total amount of money the PIF would contribute."
What we don't know yet is how much damages he will be told to pay.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/court-...
"No reasonable jury could find that Mr. Musk did not act recklessly given his clear knowledge of the discussions."
"There had been no discussion about what the purchase price would be for a share of stock. Nor had there been any discussion about what percentage of the company the PIF would own or the total amount of money the PIF would contribute."
What we don't know yet is how much damages he will be told to pay.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/court-...
“act recklessly”? So what’s fraught about that?
> Except he actually did consider it and negotiated with investors. How is it fraught when you investigate a business opportunity?
Even if what said was 'truthful', he would have filed is intentions with the SEC to begin with but didn't. Actions speak louder than words and he still hasn't done anything to take Tesla private after paying for the charges.
> So many salty shorts itt.
Shorted what? Yeah I shorted NKLA [0], and told everyone to do so in the open and laughed all the way to the bank.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27996773
Even if what said was 'truthful', he would have filed is intentions with the SEC to begin with but didn't. Actions speak louder than words and he still hasn't done anything to take Tesla private after paying for the charges.
> So many salty shorts itt.
Shorted what? Yeah I shorted NKLA [0], and told everyone to do so in the open and laughed all the way to the bank.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27996773
I'm not a fan of Elon Musk, but I think you're oversimplifying things here!
>Trevor Milton lied to Nikola’s investors — over and over and over again. That’s fraud, plain and simple,
>He faced up to 25 years in prison if convicted on all four counts.
If he would have taken large subsidies, like Musk did, it would've been much harder to jail him. Then he could let his imagination go - promise investors that they will make 100% return on investment per year ("buy Tesla for $30,000 and you make that or more per year renting it as a robotaxi"), promise superfast underground tunnels and deliver insecure tunnel with no ventilation/safety exists, with cars moving at 40 mpg, promise solar roofs, and many other things with absolutely no liability at all.
>He faced up to 25 years in prison if convicted on all four counts.
If he would have taken large subsidies, like Musk did, it would've been much harder to jail him. Then he could let his imagination go - promise investors that they will make 100% return on investment per year ("buy Tesla for $30,000 and you make that or more per year renting it as a robotaxi"), promise superfast underground tunnels and deliver insecure tunnel with no ventilation/safety exists, with cars moving at 40 mpg, promise solar roofs, and many other things with absolutely no liability at all.
> Hindenburg said the truck was “towed to the top of a hill on a remote stretch of road and simply filmed it rolling down the hill.” It was then used in a video, which Nikola said was created by a third party, in which the truck appeared to be driving on its own propulsion on flat roads.
It's all relative. How much is hype or marketing, and how much is just dishonesty? I think it depends on the field. I mean even the term "AI" is fraudulent whenever it's used, really. But investors who actually do the most basic diligence in their research know the shot. Filming a truck rolling down a hill is pretty dishonest though. I mean trucks aren't a 'concept' they're a real thing already.
It's all relative. How much is hype or marketing, and how much is just dishonesty? I think it depends on the field. I mean even the term "AI" is fraudulent whenever it's used, really. But investors who actually do the most basic diligence in their research know the shot. Filming a truck rolling down a hill is pretty dishonest though. I mean trucks aren't a 'concept' they're a real thing already.
I don't find it dishonest, rather brilliant he found a hill the truck rolled down from. The whole ordeal was the weakest chain of the whole lawsuit - most of the time the tech showed is not 100% working. The truck showed would not be on sale anyways, but obviously whatever would leave a factory. Musk showed houses that did not even have real solar panels even thought he told people in their faces these are solar panels. Seriously, the only reason Musk is not facing 25 years prison is because he is too rich to jail. With enough runaway, this could have been Milton or Holmes.
I mean it can be brilliant and dishonest. But it's not that brilliant. I don't know if that's what he was accused of fraud for.
What is "brilliant" about faking a car moving with the intent of misleading your investors, who are redirecting to you vast amounts of wealth from more deserving companies that would make society a better place?
You're stealing from companies that create economic acceleration to create economic friction.
If we keep rewarding scammers with this notion that they're doing anything remotely of value, we end up with a society of Roger Stone and Trump types who are really good at seeking out and winning negative sum games.
You're stealing from companies that create economic acceleration to create economic friction.
If we keep rewarding scammers with this notion that they're doing anything remotely of value, we end up with a society of Roger Stone and Trump types who are really good at seeking out and winning negative sum games.
It was a prototype! Musk sold his cybertruck on unbreakable windows and that turned out to be deception too. How about $30,000 investment in robo taxi and ROI of 100% per year (even Madoff wasn't giving that good returns). I mean most stuff Musk every push is or was scam. Milton never had a chance to finish his project (hello Feds) but the company is doing fine and they will eventually release their truck.
Again -- matter of how much runaway you had and how fast you become too rich to jail. I'm sure his father wealth (owning multiple emerald mines) helped too.
Again -- matter of how much runaway you had and how fast you become too rich to jail. I'm sure his father wealth (owning multiple emerald mines) helped too.
> You're stealing from companies that create economic acceleration to create economic friction.
At the margins, there's going to be some truth to this, but the kind of financier who is wowed by this kind of demo isn't skilled at telling what innovations are deserving.
> If we keep rewarding scammers with this notion that they're doing anything remotely of value, we end up with a society of Roger Stone and Trump types who are really good at seeking out and winning negative sum games.
I'd really drain a lot of money from the class of financiers as a whole and move it to households and non-financial industry. If we'd responded to 2008 with widespread haircuts on bad lenders and nationalisation of failing banks, instead of bailouts for banks and inflating the financial system via QE, we would have moved int this direction.
Musk is not a good example of the entrepreneur, but he's not in the same class as Stone, who kind of mobilised the Oath Keepers as his private heavies, or Trump, who depends on intimidation and personal dominance to run his business affairs.
At the margins, there's going to be some truth to this, but the kind of financier who is wowed by this kind of demo isn't skilled at telling what innovations are deserving.
> If we keep rewarding scammers with this notion that they're doing anything remotely of value, we end up with a society of Roger Stone and Trump types who are really good at seeking out and winning negative sum games.
I'd really drain a lot of money from the class of financiers as a whole and move it to households and non-financial industry. If we'd responded to 2008 with widespread haircuts on bad lenders and nationalisation of failing banks, instead of bailouts for banks and inflating the financial system via QE, we would have moved int this direction.
Musk is not a good example of the entrepreneur, but he's not in the same class as Stone, who kind of mobilised the Oath Keepers as his private heavies, or Trump, who depends on intimidation and personal dominance to run his business affairs.
The solar panels on those roofs at that Elon event where fake. [1]
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/e6476876-1afb-3d50-9aa7-3d40d27aa...
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/e6476876-1afb-3d50-9aa7-3d40d27aa...
He had used NASA's money to buy his solar company's bonds with his space company. He had to bail them out with the separate car company or who would pay back NASA?
When did Musk take subsidies (other than those any other competitors received to)?
Isn’t that how subsidies work? They go to the massively wealthy and powerful too much? Which is the problem?
So many inconsistencies across interviews. Repeatedly saying "It's not a pusher", "I can out Elon, Elon", "We are vertically integrated" bla bla.