My First Piano(jeromeleroy.com)
jeromeleroy.com
My First Piano
https://www.jeromeleroy.com/complog-content/2022/10/31/my-first-piano-a-story-of-hurt-healing-and-joy
117 comments
Steinway also makes pianos in the USA, with a slightly different design than their Hamburg-built ones.
I personally find them to be over-priced (since they have a stage monopoly), and lacking the quality control that Bechstein or Fazioli have.
I personally find them to be over-priced (since they have a stage monopoly), and lacking the quality control that Bechstein or Fazioli have.
I had a conversation with a prof from University of the Pacific (which is in Stockton, go figure) who was in charge of their piano program. He strongly contested the "new Steinways are shit" trope, after playing a whole lot of them and buying them for his students.
There's actually a book I read about the making of one particular Steinway concert grand, which is now retired after an illustrious career on stage at Carnegie Hall and other big places. I think this is it: https://www.amazon.com/88-Keys-Making-Steinway-Piano/dp/0517...
(reviews are a little mixed, so read those before you buy it.)
There's actually a book I read about the making of one particular Steinway concert grand, which is now retired after an illustrious career on stage at Carnegie Hall and other big places. I think this is it: https://www.amazon.com/88-Keys-Making-Steinway-Piano/dp/0517...
(reviews are a little mixed, so read those before you buy it.)
Steinway produces a ton of pianos every year.
The best of their pianos go to the concert stages and recording studios.
The next best go to their top clients.
The next best get reserved for their artists.
The next best get put into stores for "normal" people to buy.
Steinway, owned by a finance firm on Wall Street, has various quality control issues. They'll ship a six-figure piano with saw dust in it, lousy regulation, etc. Technicians know how to clean these up and work with them, but they don't hold a candle to e.g. the quality control of Fazioli. Steinway is the household name, and is ubiquitous in professional settings, so they can get away with it.
The best of their pianos go to the concert stages and recording studios.
The next best go to their top clients.
The next best get reserved for their artists.
The next best get put into stores for "normal" people to buy.
Steinway, owned by a finance firm on Wall Street, has various quality control issues. They'll ship a six-figure piano with saw dust in it, lousy regulation, etc. Technicians know how to clean these up and work with them, but they don't hold a candle to e.g. the quality control of Fazioli. Steinway is the household name, and is ubiquitous in professional settings, so they can get away with it.
Usually you try out a piano before you buy it, and preferably you have a tech look at it, too. So wouldn't you notice if it had issues?
If you hire a technician, they will tell you the problems the piano has, and tell you the qualities of the piano that will be practically immutable (e.g., aspects of timbre and resonance). The technician won't be able to tell you if the sound is what you prefer though.
More likely than not, for the average Steinway in a store, the technician will suggest getting it voiced and regulated, which will carry a $1000+ price tag and a couple days' worth of work. Maybe that doesn't matter if you're already spending $200k, though.
More likely than not, for the average Steinway in a store, the technician will suggest getting it voiced and regulated, which will carry a $1000+ price tag and a couple days' worth of work. Maybe that doesn't matter if you're already spending $200k, though.
I think it's also true that different pianos bode well for different repertoire sets. I think Chopin is played well on Steinways because Steinways have heavy keys, meaning that exercising the full freedom of dynamics works out better for when you want to make very, very soft notes and then soft notes and then roaringly loud notes. I'm no Chopin's Ballades-level pianist but playing Steinway at the piano store I do find this to be true.
I don't think the difference in the key action has much to do with appropriateness of repertoire. Most top tier pianos will have a similar feeling action if their regulation were all attended to by a top tier technician.
The construction, however, does have a lot to do with how repertoire sounds. Bosendorfers and their all-spruce construction causes more warmth and resonance, useful for traditionally played baroque music, but can lead to a blurriness in romantic (i.e., Chopin-era) music. Contrast with a Fazioli or Steinway which have a little bit of a tighter tone due to their hard rim cases.
The construction, however, does have a lot to do with how repertoire sounds. Bosendorfers and their all-spruce construction causes more warmth and resonance, useful for traditionally played baroque music, but can lead to a blurriness in romantic (i.e., Chopin-era) music. Contrast with a Fazioli or Steinway which have a little bit of a tighter tone due to their hard rim cases.
>Steinways have heavy keys
I'll preface with by saying that I know very little about pianos but I love them for all their mechanics.
I've heard it said that if it were possible to get the action feel equal across all the keys, the manufacturer would. But your comment makes it sound less like a bug than a feature. Is it because people have just gotten used to it as an expectation, or because there is an inherent advantage?
(I'm assuming your statement about "heavy" keys was meant as a comparison between models and not a comparison of keys on the same piano).
I'll preface with by saying that I know very little about pianos but I love them for all their mechanics.
I've heard it said that if it were possible to get the action feel equal across all the keys, the manufacturer would. But your comment makes it sound less like a bug than a feature. Is it because people have just gotten used to it as an expectation, or because there is an inherent advantage?
(I'm assuming your statement about "heavy" keys was meant as a comparison between models and not a comparison of keys on the same piano).
I don't think I'd call their keys "heavy" although others might differ. They feel more like a moderate resistance followed by a nice satisfying thunk when it hits the bottom. Whereas other keyboards feel more springy.
But maybe that's just me.
But maybe that's just me.
Well you can get Steinway greens, or reds but most people stick to browns. The IBM L series Steinway was unbeatable but who has the time to hunt in akehabera
>The technician won't be able to tell you if the sound is what you prefer though
That's not a problem at all, since that's exactly what you should be able (and only you) tell yourself!
That's not a problem at all, since that's exactly what you should be able (and only you) tell yourself!
It's a problem more often than you might think. Some people view technicians as having knowledge of what the "right" sound of a piano is, and when a person likes (or dislikes) a sound but a technician states it's actually due to a defect (or by design), it can make that person second-guess themselves.
You are of course 100% right. That said, the New York Steinway factory mainly builds for the American continent. Where I live, Steinways come from Hamburg, Germany.
People only buy Steinway for personal use because they can’t afford Bösendorfer.
I’m a professional pianist. Undoubtedly this is true for some. But there are important tonal and other differences that may be the overriding factor. I regularly played a smaller Bösendorfer that I despised; its tone was ordinary and its action was uneven and imprecise. But a few years ago I performed on an Imperial Flügel that was spectacular. My own instrument for practice at home is a Steinway B, and I prefer it irrespective of whether more expensive pianos exist. But maybe that’s not what you had in mind for “personal use.”
>And so I learned to play the piano on an instrument I never liked. An instrument that was forced upon me because it made practical and financial sense, not because I had any kind of emotional connection with it.
Seems like he's really into the instrument itself regardless of the joys or sorrows associated with pianos for him over basically his whole life.
Then later getting to pick out the ideal instrument for himself is rewarding in an incomparable way.
>And so, 35 years after starting
>such a long and tumultuous journey, I can safely say it was well worth the wait.
I don't think anybody could have said it better.
It's not a piano for me but I learned on an instrument that was not so likable because it was not even as realistic as a student model, it was an early imitation stage model instead. An instrument that was gifted to me because it made practical and financial sense, and that's just one of the things that helped build an emotional connection with it.
Seems like he's really into the instrument itself regardless of the joys or sorrows associated with pianos for him over basically his whole life.
Then later getting to pick out the ideal instrument for himself is rewarding in an incomparable way.
>And so, 35 years after starting
>such a long and tumultuous journey, I can safely say it was well worth the wait.
I don't think anybody could have said it better.
It's not a piano for me but I learned on an instrument that was not so likable because it was not even as realistic as a student model, it was an early imitation stage model instead. An instrument that was gifted to me because it made practical and financial sense, and that's just one of the things that helped build an emotional connection with it.
Steinway is interesting - the company was founded in the USA by Heinrich Steinweg - a german immigrant that previously founded another piano company in his home region that also still exists today: Grotrian-Steinweg Pianofortefabrik in Braunschweig, Germany.
I live in Braunschweig and a friend of mine worked in the company as an engineer for a few years.
What would Bösendorfer be?
They're very interesting pianos! They are incredibly refined, very high quality, and the equal of the best of Steinways. They're rather uncommon in the USA due to the virtual duopoly of Steinway and Yamaha in concert halls and conservatories, but you can certainly find them.
Personally I love some of the technical choices - on their larger grands, like the Imperial, there are extra keys on the low end. They're all black and not really meant to be played. Instead they provide extra resonance and a larger soundboard - though of course, if you want to hit that low G# in Ravel's Scarbo that doesn't actually exist on regular pianos, you can on a Bosendorfer.
As for your original question, I don't have an answer - car analogies don't hold very well for pianos.
Personally I love some of the technical choices - on their larger grands, like the Imperial, there are extra keys on the low end. They're all black and not really meant to be played. Instead they provide extra resonance and a larger soundboard - though of course, if you want to hit that low G# in Ravel's Scarbo that doesn't actually exist on regular pianos, you can on a Bosendorfer.
As for your original question, I don't have an answer - car analogies don't hold very well for pianos.
I don't really agree with the characterization of the brands as described. The best of Fazioli, Bechstein, Steinway, Bosendorfer, Yamaha, etc. are all world-class, and all have $200k+ price tags new.
Bosendorfer doesn't seem to be the piano of choice for many these days, save for a few pianists like Andras Schiff who really appreciate a very rich and warm tone for playing Bach, especially without pedal.
There's some truth that Fazioli is in a separate class, but not for the reason you might think. Fazioli isn't necessarily in its own class because of superlative quality (they do have amazing quality and amazing customer support!), but rather because so few are made per year, built in and exported from Italy, with extreme quality control, and they're incredibly expensive.
Bosendorfer doesn't seem to be the piano of choice for many these days, save for a few pianists like Andras Schiff who really appreciate a very rich and warm tone for playing Bach, especially without pedal.
There's some truth that Fazioli is in a separate class, but not for the reason you might think. Fazioli isn't necessarily in its own class because of superlative quality (they do have amazing quality and amazing customer support!), but rather because so few are made per year, built in and exported from Italy, with extreme quality control, and they're incredibly expensive.
Sounds like Fazioli is Ferrari then?
I purchased a Fazioli a few months ago and I really like it.
Bösendorfer is not German :) but of course it is super premium, too.
My characterization was coined on the German manufacturers (car and piano) only.
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I took lessons from someone who had TWO grand pianos, a Steinway and a Bechstein. They sold their house, and I became the custodian of the Bechstein on indefinite consignment. It had a cracked sound board, but she was sure that collectors would overlook that and be willing to pay at least $20K, given the illustrious name.
Finally a technician came and examined it, and offered $2K, which he said was mostly charity. Eventually I was getting my floors refinished and the piano had to go, and her daughter took it.
The only pianos that definitely fetch a lot are Steinway grands, and maybe a few smaller brands like Bösendorfer. Full uprights? Maybe a little. Spinets? Forget it.
Finally a technician came and examined it, and offered $2K, which he said was mostly charity. Eventually I was getting my floors refinished and the piano had to go, and her daughter took it.
The only pianos that definitely fetch a lot are Steinway grands, and maybe a few smaller brands like Bösendorfer. Full uprights? Maybe a little. Spinets? Forget it.
From what I can see on Craigslist in New England there are a lot of pianos being given away for free, on the condition that you come and move it. I helped someone do that once, and it really didn't click how big of a task that was until we did it. The new owner also gave away that piano, and transport was again someone else's problem :-)
Professional piano movers don’t cost that much (I’ve had my grand moved twice). I’d never attempt it myself, even for a moderately sized upright!
On free pianos - usually there’s a reason they’re free… They’re often inherited, old, under-maintained and need a several thousand dollars of work to bring up to a decently usable standard (the felt degrades, so all the damper and hammer felts often need replacing, possibly even strings). But spending that much on a new Yamaha would probably get you something better sounding…
On free pianos - usually there’s a reason they’re free… They’re often inherited, old, under-maintained and need a several thousand dollars of work to bring up to a decently usable standard (the felt degrades, so all the damper and hammer felts often need replacing, possibly even strings). But spending that much on a new Yamaha would probably get you something better sounding…
My neighbor, in fact, has a spinet which he can't give away.
Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Bluthner, Fazioli, Steinway, Shigeru Kawai, (golden era) Baldwin all fetch top-rate prices for a piano that's in good musical condition.
Steinway typically is easiest to sell because it's a household name, but equally attracts "piano flippers" (like house flippers) who clean them up purely aesthetically and sell them for outrageous prices.
Steinway typically is easiest to sell because it's a household name, but equally attracts "piano flippers" (like house flippers) who clean them up purely aesthetically and sell them for outrageous prices.
wow, you're really a Steinway hater, aren't you?
I've talked to lots and lots of players, and an extremely common statement is that the feel of the Steinway keys is the best. I kinda agree with that, while realizing that there's no convincing anybody on that one way or the other.
I don't think it's just that Steinway's got a name, although that's certainly a factor. They do have the marketing budget to be able to supply one to almost any orchestra or concert hall that needs one.
Finally, there's a whole book on Glenn Gould's Steinway, and I was there when the author came to talk about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow_ZGVGmfAw
Gould liked the feel so light that you could practically breathe on it and it'd play. There was only one tuner, Vern, who is blind, who was allowed to tune it. There's a hilarious moment near the end where I ask her a question about the feel of the pedals and she said "I don't know, let's call Vern." So we call him up live and talk to him.
I've talked to lots and lots of players, and an extremely common statement is that the feel of the Steinway keys is the best. I kinda agree with that, while realizing that there's no convincing anybody on that one way or the other.
I don't think it's just that Steinway's got a name, although that's certainly a factor. They do have the marketing budget to be able to supply one to almost any orchestra or concert hall that needs one.
Finally, there's a whole book on Glenn Gould's Steinway, and I was there when the author came to talk about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow_ZGVGmfAw
Gould liked the feel so light that you could practically breathe on it and it'd play. There was only one tuner, Vern, who is blind, who was allowed to tune it. There's a hilarious moment near the end where I ask her a question about the feel of the pedals and she said "I don't know, let's call Vern." So we call him up live and talk to him.
I am not a Steinway hater; I've just done an enormous amount of research during the course of buying my own pianos. This included trying new and used Steinways, interviewing conservatory technicians (that have Steinway in their stock), and so on.
Steinway is a hugely successful brand and the piano of choice for many. Steinway's best pianos are undoubtedly world-class. Those are the pianos you hear in recordings and concerts.
The "feel" of Steinway's keys are due to the Renner action. They bought Renner-the-company relatively recently, which about every other top tier manufacturer uses/used, including Bechstein, Fazioli, and so on. Previously, Steinway built their own actions, but Renner simply did a better job.
Gould owned a Chickering, and also recorded on Yamaha. He used Steinway at concerts in NYC as well. His famous Goldberg recording of the 80s was on a Yamaha.
Steinway is a hugely successful brand and the piano of choice for many. Steinway's best pianos are undoubtedly world-class. Those are the pianos you hear in recordings and concerts.
The "feel" of Steinway's keys are due to the Renner action. They bought Renner-the-company relatively recently, which about every other top tier manufacturer uses/used, including Bechstein, Fazioli, and so on. Previously, Steinway built their own actions, but Renner simply did a better job.
Gould owned a Chickering, and also recorded on Yamaha. He used Steinway at concerts in NYC as well. His famous Goldberg recording of the 80s was on a Yamaha.
Did he not have that Steinway flown around with him for his concerts, though?
I don't recall; probably. This is part of Steinway's business, even today.
Gould's concert career was rather short anyway, as he—quite famously—vastly preferred to record and manage post-production, than to perform. To my knowledge, he didn't elect to use Steinway so much in that setting.
Gould's concert career was rather short anyway, as he—quite famously—vastly preferred to record and manage post-production, than to perform. To my knowledge, he didn't elect to use Steinway so much in that setting.
> This is part of Steinway's business, even today
You mean supplying a concert grand at the venue. Very, very few pianists can afford to do what Gould did, namely, bring it with him.
You mean supplying a concert grand at the venue. Very, very few pianists can afford to do what Gould did, namely, bring it with him.
Steinway has their "Steinway Artist" program [0]. Many top pianists elect to be a part of
it if only so they can ensure a good Steinway to be available at almost any venue they go to.
Other manufacturers have similar programs, but their inventory isn't as widespread or predictable.
Some pianists like Herbie Hancock or Angela Hewitt elect to fly their piano with them everywhere. (They both happen to have Fazioli pianos.)
[0] https://www.steinway.com/music-and-artists/solo
Other manufacturers have similar programs, but their inventory isn't as widespread or predictable.
Some pianists like Herbie Hancock or Angela Hewitt elect to fly their piano with them everywhere. (They both happen to have Fazioli pianos.)
[0] https://www.steinway.com/music-and-artists/solo
A grand piano can be rebuilt, for $20000 investment that bechstien could have been like new again. This is a great deal if you have room for a large grand as most places (not people) buying grand pianos want new even though a rebuilt used is just as good.
Rebuilding can be a great option, but you really don't know what you're going to get on the other end. Pianos definitely have "personalities", that is, quirks, unique characteristics, etc. You may get a "like new" piano, but it also may not be all that nice sounding.
Even 5 brand new pianos, same size, same manufacturer, same production year will sound different to a pianist's ears. Some will be warmer, others brighter; some sensitive, some temperamental; some duller, others sparklier; etc. Many of these qualities can be adjusted a bit through a process called "voicing" and "regulation", but general wisdom among piano technicians is to not try to push a piano too far away from its "natural" timbre.
Rebuilding with a new soundboard would be a huge job. Depending on where OP lives and just how much work the rebuild entails, it could be closer to $40k.
Even 5 brand new pianos, same size, same manufacturer, same production year will sound different to a pianist's ears. Some will be warmer, others brighter; some sensitive, some temperamental; some duller, others sparklier; etc. Many of these qualities can be adjusted a bit through a process called "voicing" and "regulation", but general wisdom among piano technicians is to not try to push a piano too far away from its "natural" timbre.
Rebuilding with a new soundboard would be a huge job. Depending on where OP lives and just how much work the rebuild entails, it could be closer to $40k.
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Wow, 4 comments on this post and two are about cracked Bechstein soundboards!
This is rarely a defect of the piano as built, and more that people don't realize that pianos NEED an environment with a stable humidity of about 45% year-round. If humidity changes drastically, the wood will crack and the piano action will suffer.
This is true for any brand of piano.
You can either install a humidity control system (known as "Dampp-Chaser systems") onto the piano itself, or invest in whole-home humidity control. The latter is always preferable when possible.
If you don't do either of these, the piano—even the $250,000 ones—will fall apart over the course of a decade or two. Almost all used pianos held onto by people who don't play (e.g., the piano is furniture) almost always are busted.
This is true for any brand of piano.
You can either install a humidity control system (known as "Dampp-Chaser systems") onto the piano itself, or invest in whole-home humidity control. The latter is always preferable when possible.
If you don't do either of these, the piano—even the $250,000 ones—will fall apart over the course of a decade or two. Almost all used pianos held onto by people who don't play (e.g., the piano is furniture) almost always are busted.
This is rarely a defect of the piano as built, and more that people don't realize that pianos NEED an environment with a stable humidity of about 45% year-round.
This is true of any wood instrument, a guitar being one most familiar to folks. There are humidity control options for smaller instruments, too. All kinds of damage can result, such as sunken or collapsed tops (especially arch topped instruments that can be under a lot of string pressure, such as mandolins) or cracks as in a piano's soundboard.
My solution was to move to Seattle where our house generally stays at the perfect 35-45% humidity, and all the instruments are happy.
This is true of any wood instrument, a guitar being one most familiar to folks. There are humidity control options for smaller instruments, too. All kinds of damage can result, such as sunken or collapsed tops (especially arch topped instruments that can be under a lot of string pressure, such as mandolins) or cracks as in a piano's soundboard.
My solution was to move to Seattle where our house generally stays at the perfect 35-45% humidity, and all the instruments are happy.
Do uprights need that? My house varies from 5% humidity to 93% humidity...
Yes, uprights are definitely affected, in some cases even worse than a grand piano, because the soundboard is abutted to a wall/heat register/whatever with an upright. (Never put pianos near radiators or heat registers!)
My piano tuner was adamant that all uprights need to be on interior walls, which I agree with. That lessens the temperature swings.
Having a Dampp Chaser in it will help a lot with it staying in tune, at the very least.
This can happen on all pianos. Do not forget that having „a Steinway“ or a „Bechstein“ for many people means that the piano is 100 years old (I think of my neighbor‘s 100 year old Steinway with a cracked soundboard, too). In so many years, a lot can happen. And in 100 years, the piano will sure not have been kept in perfect environmental conditions (which is a difficult topic for piano owners).
It's true, that "older is better" is only true up to a point. A 40-year-old Steinway? Probably great. A 120-year-old? Not so much.
For someone who knows next to nothing about pianos: If I (or perhaps my children) want to learn/play the piano today, what are the benefits of having a real piano at home vs an electronic keyboard? It seems to me that a low-end/"budget" upright or baby grand piano costs around as much as a high-end electronic keyboard. What are the differences in sound and/or over-all playing experience?
I am an amateur pianist and have both a real piano and a digital piano at home. My kids gravitate towards the real piano. It doesn't have to be turned on or plugged in. It has no screen or volume control. It's a physical thing they can manipulate, a real instrument. All 3 of them use it for music, whereas the digital piano gets treated more like a toy because it makes funny sounds.
I, on the other hand, play almost exclusively on the digital piano, because the real one is so loud and I have an adult's fear of irritating others with repetitive practice and being judged for playing poorly. Playing in private with headphones has allowed me to learn songs I never would have mastered if I'd had to practice them in the living room where everyone could listen.
Nothing feels like a real piano, but I saved and bought a Nord Grand digital piano, which has real hammers (not just a facsimile) and feels about as close as technology can get you today. https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand
I, on the other hand, play almost exclusively on the digital piano, because the real one is so loud and I have an adult's fear of irritating others with repetitive practice and being judged for playing poorly. Playing in private with headphones has allowed me to learn songs I never would have mastered if I'd had to practice them in the living room where everyone could listen.
Nothing feels like a real piano, but I saved and bought a Nord Grand digital piano, which has real hammers (not just a facsimile) and feels about as close as technology can get you today. https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand
> and I have an adult's fear of irritating others with repetitive practice and being judged for playing poorly.
This is a big factor for me too. I play electric guitar not piano - I always had the problem of guitar amplifiers not really sounding any good until you turn them up real loud. And their volume knobs tend not to allow you to easily set it to quiet anyway.
I've recently started plugging my guitar into my "normal" but high watt power amp into some very nice big speakers, with an old 90s reverb unit in between... since normal amps don't have the usual preamp stage i have a lot of control over volume and it's so much easier to play at low volume but without sacrificing the sound.
I don't feel bad about playing the same thing over and over now when i'm practising, it's just for my living room. My next idea is to try out a modeling amplifier effect unit where you can even use headphones but still get good sounding distortion (probably better than I could afford).
This is a big factor for me too. I play electric guitar not piano - I always had the problem of guitar amplifiers not really sounding any good until you turn them up real loud. And their volume knobs tend not to allow you to easily set it to quiet anyway.
I've recently started plugging my guitar into my "normal" but high watt power amp into some very nice big speakers, with an old 90s reverb unit in between... since normal amps don't have the usual preamp stage i have a lot of control over volume and it's so much easier to play at low volume but without sacrificing the sound.
I don't feel bad about playing the same thing over and over now when i'm practising, it's just for my living room. My next idea is to try out a modeling amplifier effect unit where you can even use headphones but still get good sounding distortion (probably better than I could afford).
You lose some of the sound of the speaker cone breaking up at high volumes.
Something else to try: enclose the speaker cabinet in an insulated wooden box with a mic (SM57 will do), and add insulated connections connections for the mic out and the amp head in. Keeping the head outside of the box is a good idea because of heat.
It's the only real way to crank a guitar amp without disturbing neighbors and cohabitants.
Something else to try: enclose the speaker cabinet in an insulated wooden box with a mic (SM57 will do), and add insulated connections connections for the mic out and the amp head in. Keeping the head outside of the box is a good idea because of heat.
It's the only real way to crank a guitar amp without disturbing neighbors and cohabitants.
> You lose some of the sound of the speaker cone breaking up at high volumes.
Oh yeah, it doesn't sound normal for a guitar, it's too clean, but it sounds a lot better than an uncranked guitar amp.
Making a sound isolation box is an interesting idea, but I think I lack the time and skill to pull it off, also i'm in a flat and doubt the bass will stay within such a box - although I'm curious as to how well this works since you could end up with some pretty bad standing waves if the box is the wrong dimension.
I'm going to try a modelling amp next since they can simulate both the amps and speakers, they are pretty good these days apparently, pricey, but no more than a half decent amp. Seems like the right solution for someone living in a shoebox.
Oh yeah, it doesn't sound normal for a guitar, it's too clean, but it sounds a lot better than an uncranked guitar amp.
Making a sound isolation box is an interesting idea, but I think I lack the time and skill to pull it off, also i'm in a flat and doubt the bass will stay within such a box - although I'm curious as to how well this works since you could end up with some pretty bad standing waves if the box is the wrong dimension.
I'm going to try a modelling amp next since they can simulate both the amps and speakers, they are pretty good these days apparently, pricey, but no more than a half decent amp. Seems like the right solution for someone living in a shoebox.
First, to clarify, there are "keyboards" and there are "digital pianos". Keyboards typically have 60ish keys, keys that are light or thin, and sound that is low quality. Digital pianos, on the other hand, have full-sized keys that are weighted like a grand piano, have a connection for a traditional piano pedal, and usually have a good sound quality. Keyboards are not appropriate for learning most kinds of "serious" piano music.
A digital piano is perfectly fine to learn on. They're pretty good quality these days. You can put headphones on and not disturb anybody. (Grand pianos are comparatively loud.) There's no question that you can reach an advanced level of playing on a good quality digital piano, like the better ones from Roland, Kawai, or Yamaha.
However, you lose a lot of really fine-grained control of sound. I'm talking about really fine stuff that classical pianists appreciate. For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
An acoustic grand also has more opportunities to change and shape the color of the tone. A technician can make the piano warmer or brighter for example.
Some teachers claim an acoustic will lead to vastly better physical technique. I haven't seen this substantiated by any actual experiment though, so it might just be a tale among teachers.
With that said, an acoustic grand is not an investment. Maintaining it costs $100s per year. Keeping it in tip-top shape costs $1000 every 5 years or so, in top of the $100s paid for tuning. They require TLC to keep them in good condition.
Acoustic pianos also slowly break down. The crown of the soundboard flattens, the strings lose brilliance, the felts compress, the hammers wear out, etc.
But an acoustic will probably give you the greatest degree of connectedness to your music that a digital could not.
A digital piano is perfectly fine to learn on. They're pretty good quality these days. You can put headphones on and not disturb anybody. (Grand pianos are comparatively loud.) There's no question that you can reach an advanced level of playing on a good quality digital piano, like the better ones from Roland, Kawai, or Yamaha.
However, you lose a lot of really fine-grained control of sound. I'm talking about really fine stuff that classical pianists appreciate. For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
An acoustic grand also has more opportunities to change and shape the color of the tone. A technician can make the piano warmer or brighter for example.
Some teachers claim an acoustic will lead to vastly better physical technique. I haven't seen this substantiated by any actual experiment though, so it might just be a tale among teachers.
With that said, an acoustic grand is not an investment. Maintaining it costs $100s per year. Keeping it in tip-top shape costs $1000 every 5 years or so, in top of the $100s paid for tuning. They require TLC to keep them in good condition.
Acoustic pianos also slowly break down. The crown of the soundboard flattens, the strings lose brilliance, the felts compress, the hammers wear out, etc.
But an acoustic will probably give you the greatest degree of connectedness to your music that a digital could not.
> First, to clarify, there are "keyboards" and there are "digital pianos". Keyboards typically have 60ish keys, keys that are light or thin, and sound that is low quality.
I describe myself as playing "keyboard" and call my instrument a "keyboard", even though by your definitions it wouldn't be one -- I don't think that's how the word is usually used? I think most people, including most musicians, would consider a digital piano a kind of keyboard.
I describe myself as playing "keyboard" and call my instrument a "keyboard", even though by your definitions it wouldn't be one -- I don't think that's how the word is usually used? I think most people, including most musicians, would consider a digital piano a kind of keyboard.
I guess we can define the terms however we like. An acoustic piano also has a keyboard.
My point was that "keyboards" include a much broader class of electronic instruments than strictly what the set of "digital pianos" includes, like synthesizers, MIDI controllers, semi- or unweighted electric "pianos", etc. Unfortunately, to the beginner, they all look the same.
My point was that "keyboards" include a much broader class of electronic instruments than strictly what the set of "digital pianos" includes, like synthesizers, MIDI controllers, semi- or unweighted electric "pianos", etc. Unfortunately, to the beginner, they all look the same.
The usage I've generally seen is that they keyboard is just the row of keys. An analog or digital piano has one, an organ perhaps several. The pianos, an organ, a harpischord, they're all kinds of keyboard instruments.
I'd agree that the post above yours paints a bit of a false dichotomy.
There are some fine semi-weighted keybeds out there, like on the Nord Electro.
We ought remember that replicating the characteristics of an acoustic piano with a digital instrument is difficult, and was basically impossible 30 years ago. Modern sampling keyboards have hundreds of MB of memory for samples (and can play back and mix them with no audible latency).
There are some fine semi-weighted keybeds out there, like on the Nord Electro.
We ought remember that replicating the characteristics of an acoustic piano with a digital instrument is difficult, and was basically impossible 30 years ago. Modern sampling keyboards have hundreds of MB of memory for samples (and can play back and mix them with no audible latency).
My comment was written with "learning traditional classical/jazz piano" in mind, where the dichotomy is, I think, not false. Jamming out on semi-weighted keys in your rock band is fine, but it will not cut it for conventional training.
Most of the jazz keyboard players I gig with use good semi-weighted keys, and it works out for them.
You'd strengthen your point by putting your entering conditions ("for classical piano") up front.
You'd strengthen your point by putting your entering conditions ("for classical piano") up front.
Most of the great jazz players learned on an acoustic piano, and indeed continue to play on an acoustic piano. Hancock, Charles, Peterson, Jarrett, Corea, ... I can't recall a single jazz pianist of note that avoided an acoustic piano and/or built their technique off of semi-weighted keys. Folks like Peterson eventually dabbled and mastered certain electronic instruments, and most jazz musicians encounter electronic instruments as a significant part of their career, but they began with an acoustic.
Keyboards of all sorts are used in all manner of places. Jazz especially loves the rounder tones offered by "e-pianos". There are even some famous synthesized classical pieces. So they're undoubtedly useful instruments, just seemingly avoided in most conventional approaches to learning to play piano.
Keyboards of all sorts are used in all manner of places. Jazz especially loves the rounder tones offered by "e-pianos". There are even some famous synthesized classical pieces. So they're undoubtedly useful instruments, just seemingly avoided in most conventional approaches to learning to play piano.
These are interesting facts that don't address the enormous space of options that exist between the dichotomy you originally presented. That said, please play whatever keyboard you enjoy and call it whatever you want to.
However, you lose a lot of really fine-grained control of sound. I'm talking about really fine stuff that classical pianists appreciate. For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
I actually agree with you for the most part, but I think the digital experience is (or at least can be) even closer than you realise.
I have a digital piano that does a very good impersonation of half-pedalling, and when you press down the pedal you can hear the whole soundboard gently vibrate. It was high-end when I bought it over ten years ago. Sound quality has improved a lot since then, touch and feel is at least as good.
I actually agree with you for the most part, but I think the digital experience is (or at least can be) even closer than you realise.
I have a digital piano that does a very good impersonation of half-pedalling, and when you press down the pedal you can hear the whole soundboard gently vibrate. It was high-end when I bought it over ten years ago. Sound quality has improved a lot since then, touch and feel is at least as good.
Technology has come a long way. Pianoteq is amazing. The Kawai VPC1 was a pleasure to use when paired with nice monitors and a sub.
But, in addition to the sound (like half-pedaling), I'm talking about the actual feel. A digital piano's pedal will always feel like a buttery spring. On an acoustic, you can feel the vibrations, the felts, the engagement of the dampers, etc. in your foot.
It's really minor, because a great pianist can do fine with these very good digitals, but you lose a sense of "one-ness" with the instrument.
But, in addition to the sound (like half-pedaling), I'm talking about the actual feel. A digital piano's pedal will always feel like a buttery spring. On an acoustic, you can feel the vibrations, the felts, the engagement of the dampers, etc. in your foot.
It's really minor, because a great pianist can do fine with these very good digitals, but you lose a sense of "one-ness" with the instrument.
I wonder if anyone is doing haptic feedback to simulate that!
Of course, if they do it’ll be at a ridiculous premium price point where you might as well save money by just getting a real piano instead. :)
Of course, if they do it’ll be at a ridiculous premium price point where you might as well save money by just getting a real piano instead. :)
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Having recently just gone through the acoustic vs digital purchase decision, while you're right that an acoustic breaks down, so too can a digital.
But IMO fixing an action or motherboard on a 10+ year digital is much scarier than fixing a purely mechanical acoustic. A well looked after acoustic has a reasonably forgiving depreciation curve if it's a decent brand too whereas I picked up top-end digital for 45% discount even though it was less than a year old
But IMO fixing an action or motherboard on a 10+ year digital is much scarier than fixing a purely mechanical acoustic. A well looked after acoustic has a reasonably forgiving depreciation curve if it's a decent brand too whereas I picked up top-end digital for 45% discount even though it was less than a year old
Given the price difference, you could buy a new high end digital keyboard every 10 years and still be below the cost of a middling acoustic instrument after 50 years.
You can’t justify acoustic economically unless you make your income from the piano. Aesthetically acoustic is the clear winner, but you’d better have your pocketbook well stocked.
Personally I prefer electronic because I’m not a trained pianist and I appreciate the versatility of something like a Korg Kronos over the undeniable physicality of a concert grand. And I splurged a bit on my audio setup so I can still get some good body resonance going when I don’t mind potentially annoying the neighbors.
You can’t justify acoustic economically unless you make your income from the piano. Aesthetically acoustic is the clear winner, but you’d better have your pocketbook well stocked.
Personally I prefer electronic because I’m not a trained pianist and I appreciate the versatility of something like a Korg Kronos over the undeniable physicality of a concert grand. And I splurged a bit on my audio setup so I can still get some good body resonance going when I don’t mind potentially annoying the neighbors.
Hmm quick glance the Kronos is around 2600 GBP. A good monitor set up is maybe 1000 GBP.
At 2% inflation, a series of 5 purchases (one every 10 years) totals to 27815 GBP
On Yamaha today, that will get you a 6'1" C3X.
I don't have great knowledge of the market for second hand midrange Yamaha grands but if it's well looked after (which as discussed costs money) the value of the piano will not be zero.
A spot check on gumtree[0] suggests that a well maintained 30-year old 6'1" Yamaha C3 is worth 50% of today's C3X. I'd be more confident that a well looked after Steinway B would command a decent price - especially if you picked up a decent 5-10 year old to avoid the premium associated with newness then sold it a few decades later.
So for me, I don't agree that the economics of buying a grand piano are as clear cut as your post makes out but I agree that periodic upgrading of a DP is definitely viable and gives you more flexibility.
I used to be really fascinated by antique pianos (Bechstein and Steinway) and I was really impressed how gradual their value decline was, but also how nice they can sound. A well looked after 1900s Bechstein sounds so beautiful.
[0] https://www.gumtree.com/p/pianos/yamaha-c3-conservatory-gran...
Given that it is allegedly from a conservatory I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the piano will be well used but also well maintained.
At 2% inflation, a series of 5 purchases (one every 10 years) totals to 27815 GBP
On Yamaha today, that will get you a 6'1" C3X.
I don't have great knowledge of the market for second hand midrange Yamaha grands but if it's well looked after (which as discussed costs money) the value of the piano will not be zero.
A spot check on gumtree[0] suggests that a well maintained 30-year old 6'1" Yamaha C3 is worth 50% of today's C3X. I'd be more confident that a well looked after Steinway B would command a decent price - especially if you picked up a decent 5-10 year old to avoid the premium associated with newness then sold it a few decades later.
So for me, I don't agree that the economics of buying a grand piano are as clear cut as your post makes out but I agree that periodic upgrading of a DP is definitely viable and gives you more flexibility.
I used to be really fascinated by antique pianos (Bechstein and Steinway) and I was really impressed how gradual their value decline was, but also how nice they can sound. A well looked after 1900s Bechstein sounds so beautiful.
[0] https://www.gumtree.com/p/pianos/yamaha-c3-conservatory-gran...
Given that it is allegedly from a conservatory I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the piano will be well used but also well maintained.
Consider also the time value of money. If you buy the acoustic you are out all of that money immediately. If not, you can invest it and at least beat inflation. That’s assuming you have the lump sum in hand of course, you may not, and be forced to buy on credit, which will in turn drive a different economic analysis.
I’m pretty comfortable in my belief here. Certainly the immediate winner is the DP, and you may not stick with it long enough, or even live long enough, to win the long term bet you are making here.
Back to my original point — I’m not saying the acoustic isn’t worth it, simply that you should not analyze it from a purely economic point of view, because it is a losing argument from that perspective.
I’m pretty comfortable in my belief here. Certainly the immediate winner is the DP, and you may not stick with it long enough, or even live long enough, to win the long term bet you are making here.
Back to my original point — I’m not saying the acoustic isn’t worth it, simply that you should not analyze it from a purely economic point of view, because it is a losing argument from that perspective.
Fair enough. I agree that there is definitely more to just the economics of owning a piano. Times have changed but I do quite like the idea of passing down a piano too.
I also can accept your reasoning and definitely agree re. time value of money (and the value of optionality) but I was surprised actually see the numbers play out the way they did.
As for me, the much bigger problem is finding a place big enough to house a bloody grand piano!
I also can accept your reasoning and definitely agree re. time value of money (and the value of optionality) but I was surprised actually see the numbers play out the way they did.
As for me, the much bigger problem is finding a place big enough to house a bloody grand piano!
All definitely true. Acoustics are basically universally repairable. Soldered chips and irreplaceable software... not so much.
> For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
I wonder if there would be a market for that level of emulation.
For example in the car sim scene the higher end braking pedals measure not just the movement but also with how much force it is pressed (force needed for brake pedal is nonlinear with pedal movement), so you have more control over it (easier to control force of pressing compared to absolute movement of the pedal)
> An acoustic grand also has more opportunities to change and shape the color of the tone. A technician can make the piano warmer or brighter for example.
Yeah nah. Digital pianos often have more than one sound to choose from, let alone more advanced synths. If we're talking sheer variety of sound digital has no limits, even if your particular device does there is always option of connecting it to PC (althought no doubt archaic MIDI gonna lose some of the detail there)
I wonder if there would be a market for that level of emulation.
For example in the car sim scene the higher end braking pedals measure not just the movement but also with how much force it is pressed (force needed for brake pedal is nonlinear with pedal movement), so you have more control over it (easier to control force of pressing compared to absolute movement of the pedal)
> An acoustic grand also has more opportunities to change and shape the color of the tone. A technician can make the piano warmer or brighter for example.
Yeah nah. Digital pianos often have more than one sound to choose from, let alone more advanced synths. If we're talking sheer variety of sound digital has no limits, even if your particular device does there is always option of connecting it to PC (althought no doubt archaic MIDI gonna lose some of the detail there)
False equivalence. A $1k acoustic piano will likely be shit. A $1k digital piano will likely be much better. A good acoustic piano is better than a good digital piano but in the real world where most people are not wealthy. The kinda acoustic piano most people can afford to get, play, tune, maintain and fix is close to the $1k acoustic. While the kinda digital piano people can afford to buy is likely closer to the $1k digital piano. So no, your average piano won't make you feel closer to music because it will be out of tune most of the time and you won't be able to afford a tuner.
I'm not entirely sure what you're rebutting, and I certainly don't know what "equivalence" I made which was "false". I just compared what you can get from a digital piano against what you can get from an acoustic piano.
If we set a budget to $1k, then sure, I agree that you'll have a hard time finding a decent acoustic. I'm not sure, though, why we should assume $1k is an average, and even if it is, why we ought to use that as a benchmark for characterizing acoustic pianos.
Buying a good quality grand piano is affordable to middle-class families. It's not unlike buying a car: you can get them new or used, financed or paid in cash. So somebody, who at least has middle-class financial means, who is serious about learning piano, absolutely has the opportunity to get an instrument they can connect with (in the specific sense I described).
It's not cheap, and to most families it certainly couldn't/wouldn't be a frivolous purchase. But that's just how it is with a decent acoustic instruments. Digital pianos are much more affordable and offer a lot of practical benefits, but they're still significantly different from an acoustic piano in every dimension.
If we set a budget to $1k, then sure, I agree that you'll have a hard time finding a decent acoustic. I'm not sure, though, why we should assume $1k is an average, and even if it is, why we ought to use that as a benchmark for characterizing acoustic pianos.
Buying a good quality grand piano is affordable to middle-class families. It's not unlike buying a car: you can get them new or used, financed or paid in cash. So somebody, who at least has middle-class financial means, who is serious about learning piano, absolutely has the opportunity to get an instrument they can connect with (in the specific sense I described).
It's not cheap, and to most families it certainly couldn't/wouldn't be a frivolous purchase. But that's just how it is with a decent acoustic instruments. Digital pianos are much more affordable and offer a lot of practical benefits, but they're still significantly different from an acoustic piano in every dimension.
I don't know what kind of income level are you talking about when you say "middle class family". Afaik, most middle-class families can't afford to spend money on a good quality grand piano. I would be even surprised if they even had enough money to maintain it or if they had enough space for it
It's gonna be hard to tell some parents why they should dump over $1k on some fancy piano when they can spend way less than that on a digital piano.
It's gonna be hard to tell some parents why they should dump over $1k on some fancy piano when they can spend way less than that on a digital piano.
> Buying a good quality grand piano is affordable to middle-class families
I don't know if even having the space for it is affordable to middle-class families.
I don't know if even having the space for it is affordable to middle-class families.
There are lots of 88-key digital pianos. They're pretty nice, actually. But yeah, an acoustic grand is quite unlikely to appreciate in value -- just the opposite. And the weight and size will seriously inconvenience you whenever your flooring needs work.
I think a cheap piano is probably a false economy. It’ll likely have poor sound quality, loose keys, that sort of thing. (I’m sure there are hidden gems to be found at affordable prices but I never have.)
For the same price as a bad piano, you can get a really good digital one that’ll sound and feel great, and won’t need any maintenance. You’ll be able to use headphones, which you’ll definitely want to do if somebody is learning, and it’ll be much easier to record if you ever want to do that.
Both the sound and feel of mid-range digital pianos these days tends to be excellent, very close to the real thing. Look for “weighted keys”, that’s the key feature. You miss some of the richness of the sound and some of the feel of the vibrations but that’s about it.
Having said all that, if I could afford and justify a good-quality real piano, I’d get a real one. But only good quality.
For the same price as a bad piano, you can get a really good digital one that’ll sound and feel great, and won’t need any maintenance. You’ll be able to use headphones, which you’ll definitely want to do if somebody is learning, and it’ll be much easier to record if you ever want to do that.
Both the sound and feel of mid-range digital pianos these days tends to be excellent, very close to the real thing. Look for “weighted keys”, that’s the key feature. You miss some of the richness of the sound and some of the feel of the vibrations but that’s about it.
Having said all that, if I could afford and justify a good-quality real piano, I’d get a real one. But only good quality.
If you or your children want to start learning how to play the piano, I would suggest starting with a decent electronic piano. As others have noted here, while they still don’t have all the nuance, warmth, or personality of great acoustic pianos, they have improved a lot in recent years. They also have some advantages: volume control, playability with headphones, staying in tune, etc.
While you or your kids are getting better at playing your electronic piano, you should also take whatever opportunities you can to try acoustic pianos. That will give you an idea of the range of tones, touch, and quality of acoustics, and you will find out what it’s like to play on a piano that is not perfectly in tune. You will then be in a position to start deciding whether you want to invest in an acoustic piano or not.
I myself learned how to play as a child on several mediocre acoustic pianos, maintained my skills for a couple of decades on so-so electronic pianos, and for the last twenty years have been playing an acoustic grand piano (Boston, designed by Steinway and made by Kawai) that I bought new. It cost about as much as a new car and I spend more than five hundred dollars a year to keep it tuned and in good shape, but it’s worth it to me.
While you or your kids are getting better at playing your electronic piano, you should also take whatever opportunities you can to try acoustic pianos. That will give you an idea of the range of tones, touch, and quality of acoustics, and you will find out what it’s like to play on a piano that is not perfectly in tune. You will then be in a position to start deciding whether you want to invest in an acoustic piano or not.
I myself learned how to play as a child on several mediocre acoustic pianos, maintained my skills for a couple of decades on so-so electronic pianos, and for the last twenty years have been playing an acoustic grand piano (Boston, designed by Steinway and made by Kawai) that I bought new. It cost about as much as a new car and I spend more than five hundred dollars a year to keep it tuned and in good shape, but it’s worth it to me.
This is the way. If your kids take to piano, by all means roll up your sleeves and get an acoustic instrument (that will more than likely become a piece of furniture in 10-20 years). But a good DP will be better than the equivalent acoustic all the way up to $20K, which is way over my budget for “things my kids may or may not stick with.”
I had the chance to learn the piano on a grand piano (K. Kawai KG-3C from early 1980's which is a great baby grand).
As I was the only pianist in the family, it followed me everywhere I moved, from France to now south east Asia. After 40 years, it is still working perfectly, even if it had endured a lot.
I also have digital keyboards, make music with great VSTs, etc...
But nothing compares to a real piano in terms of inspiration and emotion. Each piano you play with will have a soul and character that will resonate with you (or not).
I love digital things, but nothing replaces the poetry of a piano. And damn, these instruments are marvels of craftmanship.
And people saying having to bring a technician to tune your piano twice a year is a chore, for me it's the opposite. I love seeing my technician optimizing the sound and the action to my playing style, discussing with him about his experience in Hamburg at Steinway, etc...
As I was the only pianist in the family, it followed me everywhere I moved, from France to now south east Asia. After 40 years, it is still working perfectly, even if it had endured a lot.
I also have digital keyboards, make music with great VSTs, etc...
But nothing compares to a real piano in terms of inspiration and emotion. Each piano you play with will have a soul and character that will resonate with you (or not).
I love digital things, but nothing replaces the poetry of a piano. And damn, these instruments are marvels of craftmanship.
And people saying having to bring a technician to tune your piano twice a year is a chore, for me it's the opposite. I love seeing my technician optimizing the sound and the action to my playing style, discussing with him about his experience in Hamburg at Steinway, etc...
Seeing something fundamentally beautiful (other than a Harp I think it’s the most rich instrument) being brought back to its harmonic greatness is a wonderful thing.
Just made this decision (as an experienced player).
The other comments are pretty solid, ultimately a DP is great for dipping your toes in and a 1k digital is probably better than a 1k acoustic.
That said as I heard someone say there is something magical about the physical and sonic experience of playing an acoustic and feeling the sound reverberate through you and hear all that resonance.
Until you get to the top end of digital pianos (like your Kawai CA99 / Novus 5S) which have a soundboard or you're a very clued up audiophile, you'll never get close to replicating that physical experience and for some people it's that magic that makes them fall in love with the instrument.
I ended up going digital as I like playing at all hours of the day and can practise in ways that will drive people crazy (I recently spent ~100 minutes working on a single bar of Chopin nonstop without break after having too much guarana in an acai paired with a coffee). My other half also pointed out that given how much I love playing, will practising/playing with a mute pedal on be enjoyable enough if I'm always holding back.
If you have the budget you can also look at silent pianos, I considered one but the one in my local Yamaha showroom was poorly regulated which gave me cold feet but a decent silent should carry you pretty far.
The other comments are pretty solid, ultimately a DP is great for dipping your toes in and a 1k digital is probably better than a 1k acoustic.
That said as I heard someone say there is something magical about the physical and sonic experience of playing an acoustic and feeling the sound reverberate through you and hear all that resonance.
Until you get to the top end of digital pianos (like your Kawai CA99 / Novus 5S) which have a soundboard or you're a very clued up audiophile, you'll never get close to replicating that physical experience and for some people it's that magic that makes them fall in love with the instrument.
I ended up going digital as I like playing at all hours of the day and can practise in ways that will drive people crazy (I recently spent ~100 minutes working on a single bar of Chopin nonstop without break after having too much guarana in an acai paired with a coffee). My other half also pointed out that given how much I love playing, will practising/playing with a mute pedal on be enjoyable enough if I'm always holding back.
If you have the budget you can also look at silent pianos, I considered one but the one in my local Yamaha showroom was poorly regulated which gave me cold feet but a decent silent should carry you pretty far.
The sound is really good on digital pianos these days (and I mean digital pianos as opposed to keyboards).
The main playing difference between a digital piano and a real piano is the key action. Depending on how much you want to spend you can get realistic key feel and action on a digital piano.
Merriam Music (a Canadian music shop) recently made a couple of interesting videos talking about Kawai's different key actions on their various models of digital piano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRWQ6OVqq0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6f6-sx4b-c
The Kawai ES110 (soon to be replaced by the ES120), for example, is a solid entry level digital piano at a good price. As you progress with playing you might find you want more out of the key action than the Responsive Hammer Compact action on the ES110 offers, in which case getting a model with the Responsive Hammer III action is a good upgrade.
I like digital pianos because they can be cheaper than the real thing, they don't require tuning, they are smaller, lighter, more portable with audio out, MIDI, and bluetooth connections for integration with software. I like that I can play it silently (or at least quietly) with headphones whenever I want.
The main playing difference between a digital piano and a real piano is the key action. Depending on how much you want to spend you can get realistic key feel and action on a digital piano.
Merriam Music (a Canadian music shop) recently made a couple of interesting videos talking about Kawai's different key actions on their various models of digital piano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRWQ6OVqq0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6f6-sx4b-c
The Kawai ES110 (soon to be replaced by the ES120), for example, is a solid entry level digital piano at a good price. As you progress with playing you might find you want more out of the key action than the Responsive Hammer Compact action on the ES110 offers, in which case getting a model with the Responsive Hammer III action is a good upgrade.
I like digital pianos because they can be cheaper than the real thing, they don't require tuning, they are smaller, lighter, more portable with audio out, MIDI, and bluetooth connections for integration with software. I like that I can play it silently (or at least quietly) with headphones whenever I want.
Exactly. I have a Kawai upright, used to have access to a Steinway grand, now wishing I had a Nord Piano 5.
Experience: A piano doesn't have an on/off switch. It can't be anything but a piano. Electronic pianos can be guitars, drum-kits, or entire orchestras! It can feel more like a toy than an instrument, especially for younger children. So right off the bat, a piano will give you or your children focus when they sit on the piano stool.
Sound: a hammer hitting real strings vs a speaker replicating the sound. If a speaker gets dust in it or becomes damaged in some way, the sound is greatly diminished. Also, pianos are made of wood which vibrates. The strings at the higher end which aren't dampened vibrate. If I sneeze loud enough, the piano in my room sometimes hums with vibration. It's a living thing.
Yes, pianos need to be tuned and electronic pianos don't... but if you or your child is actually taking lessons and practising, you want a piano. Your technique, I think, will be much better if you learn on a piano with real hammer action vs an electronic piano.
I think the trick to buying a piano is taking your time and only buying the one that sounds right to you. Some people like a more warm, mellow tone. Other people like more brightness and brilliance. The "family" piano we have was purchased 20 years ago and it's a standard upright piano. It's absolutely rock solid, still sounds beautiful.
Sound: a hammer hitting real strings vs a speaker replicating the sound. If a speaker gets dust in it or becomes damaged in some way, the sound is greatly diminished. Also, pianos are made of wood which vibrates. The strings at the higher end which aren't dampened vibrate. If I sneeze loud enough, the piano in my room sometimes hums with vibration. It's a living thing.
Yes, pianos need to be tuned and electronic pianos don't... but if you or your child is actually taking lessons and practising, you want a piano. Your technique, I think, will be much better if you learn on a piano with real hammer action vs an electronic piano.
I think the trick to buying a piano is taking your time and only buying the one that sounds right to you. Some people like a more warm, mellow tone. Other people like more brightness and brilliance. The "family" piano we have was purchased 20 years ago and it's a standard upright piano. It's absolutely rock solid, still sounds beautiful.
I disagree. This is like saying that a electric guitar that makes piano sounds can be a piano and more of a toy than an instrument.
Digital does not make something worse.
Think about your average person, they won't be able to fork out much more than $800 in some instrument be it acoustic or not. That money won't get them anything remotely playable (acoustically) but it will get them a digital device that will inspire their practice.
I never understand why so many pianists seem to forget that acoustic pianos are not cheap, especially compared to other instruments like the guitar or for people that are just starting and might quit in a couple of years because their practice in an acoustic piano has made the neighbors complain to the police 8 times for noise related matters
Digital does not make something worse.
Think about your average person, they won't be able to fork out much more than $800 in some instrument be it acoustic or not. That money won't get them anything remotely playable (acoustically) but it will get them a digital device that will inspire their practice.
I never understand why so many pianists seem to forget that acoustic pianos are not cheap, especially compared to other instruments like the guitar or for people that are just starting and might quit in a couple of years because their practice in an acoustic piano has made the neighbors complain to the police 8 times for noise related matters
It can feel more like a toy than an instrument, especially for younger children. So right off the bat, a piano will give you or your children focus when they sit on the piano stool.
This is a really good point.
This is a really good point.
When we bought a piano for my daughter 15 years ago, the ability to make funny sounds was a key factor in picking up a digital piano rather than an acoustic. It made practice more fun which meant longer practice sessions. Plus, I think noodling and pure play is important. It should be a toy.
I think it was the right call for my kid. She became an amazing player and still loves playing today.
I think it was the right call for my kid. She became an amazing player and still loves playing today.
You can spend about as much on a decent upright on a good digital piano that feels good enough to perform with, and a good sound. The difference is you'll be able to resell the latter and move it easily, whereas you'll usually need to pay someone to haul away the former.
I also think that there's a noticeable difference in feel and timbre in the real thing, even a bad piano. I think it affects the way you play. Given the choice almost everyone uses a real piano to record. But gigging musicians will usually prefer a digital piano, because they can move it and trust it sounds and feels the same in different venues. Most acoustic pianos supplied by venues are poorly maintained and can have other issues like amplification (you have to mic a piano, which means you need a sound engineer at the gig, which may or may not be possible).
I also think that there's a noticeable difference in feel and timbre in the real thing, even a bad piano. I think it affects the way you play. Given the choice almost everyone uses a real piano to record. But gigging musicians will usually prefer a digital piano, because they can move it and trust it sounds and feels the same in different venues. Most acoustic pianos supplied by venues are poorly maintained and can have other issues like amplification (you have to mic a piano, which means you need a sound engineer at the gig, which may or may not be possible).
A data point on "decent uprights":
I bought my Weinbach (a full sized upright made by Petrof) for $6,000 in about 1993. I finally sold it for $1,200 in 2020 or so. It took a long time to sell.
A lot of houses, especially outside the US, don't have room for a grand piano, but they still want a good instrument. So you don't necessarily have to give it away.
I bought my Weinbach (a full sized upright made by Petrof) for $6,000 in about 1993. I finally sold it for $1,200 in 2020 or so. It took a long time to sell.
A lot of houses, especially outside the US, don't have room for a grand piano, but they still want a good instrument. So you don't necessarily have to give it away.
Buying a used, good upright + paying piano movers is a way better deal than buying from a dealer even if they have free delivery
I can't really comment on the nuances of the sound, but a digital piano will allow you to plug in headphones which is - in my opinion - invaluable in a home environment.
Yes and no. Losing the "Oh, I heard you playing a new song" is a priceless dinner conversation that can encourage a child's burgeoning passion.
As a former child I suspect in most cases the pleasure is all parent’s in such a conversation. I’ve never liked showing incomplete things.
I find playing an acoustic piano more fun and satisfying in various hard-to-define ways, but digital pianos are fine too. It's a matter of preference and convenience more than anything else.
My digital piano actually gets played more these days, but that's just because I like to play in just intonation or non-equal temperaments, and the digital piano is easier to change. My regular piano is currently tuned to just intonation relative to the key of D, which doesn't work for a lot of songs.
My digital piano actually gets played more these days, but that's just because I like to play in just intonation or non-equal temperaments, and the digital piano is easier to change. My regular piano is currently tuned to just intonation relative to the key of D, which doesn't work for a lot of songs.
It is very similar to a computer keyboard. Would you prefer to learn to type on a freebie kb included in a Walmart bundle, or <insert what you enjoy typing on>? They both get the job done, but one likely 'feels' better, which in turns makes the entire experience more pleasing.
Nice story, he looks proud and a little scared in the final picture, probably some interesting times ahead.
My uncle had a Bechstein concert grand. When he passed away the family expected it would fetch a nice sum but were told that it was cracked and worth just enough to pay for disposal fee. Sad!
My uncle had a Bechstein concert grand. When he passed away the family expected it would fetch a nice sum but were told that it was cracked and worth just enough to pay for disposal fee. Sad!
For a beginner, consider a clavichord. Price is reasonable and the volume won't bother others in the house. It takes up no more space than a DP. You can later decide on a bigger instrument.
Tuning these days is MUCH easier with PitchLab Pro on your phone. But you have to go through the Amazon App Store to get it.
I tune the 8's on my harpsichord several times a week. It doesn't take that long.
Mechanicals on clavichords, virginals, spinets and harpsichords are simple to look after. Strings and plectra break, damper felts get out of position, stuff mysteriously gets between keys, jacks hang up – all straightforward to fix, especially compared to replacing a broken screen on a phone or tablet.
Agree that humidity control is key for any wooden instrument. My instrument is covered when not playing with a humidifier that maintains 54%.
Tuning these days is MUCH easier with PitchLab Pro on your phone. But you have to go through the Amazon App Store to get it.
I tune the 8's on my harpsichord several times a week. It doesn't take that long.
Mechanicals on clavichords, virginals, spinets and harpsichords are simple to look after. Strings and plectra break, damper felts get out of position, stuff mysteriously gets between keys, jacks hang up – all straightforward to fix, especially compared to replacing a broken screen on a phone or tablet.
Agree that humidity control is key for any wooden instrument. My instrument is covered when not playing with a humidifier that maintains 54%.
I love the author's description of piano players never getting to play on their own instruments and having to settle for what is provided to them. How true! I used to play piano/keyboards in an Emerson, Lake, and Palmer cover band, but after so many stuck keys and out-of-tune pianos, I ditched keyboards for a six-string bass and now play in a band that does mostly Rush and Dream Theater covers. I was shocked by how much my band experience improved when playing on my own well-cared-for instrument vs. whatever dusty beast existed in the corner of the venue.
I recently also bought a rather fancy upright piano, a Sauter Master Class 130 [0].
It is a rather niche brand but the pianos are absolutely top tier and the Master Class easily rivals the Steinway K52 or Bosendorfer Grand Upright, or perhaps is even better (to my ears).
[0] https://www.sauter-pianos.de/en/master-class-130
It is a rather niche brand but the pianos are absolutely top tier and the Master Class easily rivals the Steinway K52 or Bosendorfer Grand Upright, or perhaps is even better (to my ears).
[0] https://www.sauter-pianos.de/en/master-class-130
Be aware that there are a few classic piano brands which are now that brand in name only. For instance old Richard Lipp & Sohn pianos were German-made, but recent ones were made in China by a different company just re-using the name. This isn't to say that a Chinese piano will be worse than a German one, just that they are not the same and don't sound the same.
Likewise Baldwin. They were an extremely popular and reputable brand pre-1990s. They arguably built the best American piano (semi-concert and concert grand; depending on who you ask).
Then their brand/etc. was sold to Chinese ownership, and the quality tanked.
At least as of 2022, almost all Chinese manufactured pianos are inferior (in a conventional sense) to others, especially European pianos. This is usually due to the fact they're mass produced, use cheap materials, etc. However, they are a lot less expensive.
Then their brand/etc. was sold to Chinese ownership, and the quality tanked.
At least as of 2022, almost all Chinese manufactured pianos are inferior (in a conventional sense) to others, especially European pianos. This is usually due to the fact they're mass produced, use cheap materials, etc. However, they are a lot less expensive.
Interestingly, I always thought Yamahas and Kawais were too bright-sounding for me, but a lot of people prefer that sound. I know they're not Chinese.
Agreed on Yamaha. I swear they design them that way so they can cut through a mix in the studio. The Kawais that I've tried have been on the warmer side.
I love my cut-down B3/Leslie combo. I can take it to small clubs and fill the room with thick silky sound that competes with any electric guitar. Acoustic pianos are wonderful, but portable B3’s are the king of keyboard instruments. Nord Stage pianos are at least a great substitute.
I'm glad to see a piano geek keeping the spirit alive.
I used to noodle around on the piano, and still have an old Clavinova. But I've been concerned, seeing all the free pianos on Facebook Marketplace. I thought piano playing was on the decline, maybe terminally so.
I used to noodle around on the piano, and still have an old Clavinova. But I've been concerned, seeing all the free pianos on Facebook Marketplace. I thought piano playing was on the decline, maybe terminally so.
Great read, maybe one day I'll have the room for one as well. I play on a keyboard at the moment. Next to Bechstein and the usual suspects, Steingraeber is of interest to me.
Nice, thanks for sharing. I only have an electric piano; its better for the kids to learn as you can adjust the level of noise. But in the long run, oh, the dreams!
Dang, that hits a little close.
I play enough music that I suspect there is some kind of underlying pathology.
Like, I am usually in 3-4 bands, have performed on 10+ instruments on stage this year. I spent 3 hours today playing clarinet waiting for google billing support, and another hour or so on trumpet this morning. And in a bit, I will be getting on the pedal steel for an evening scale pickin session.
I just started the clarinet again and it has been really weird. It was my instrument all through high school. My parents were super proud that they had been able to score a super inexpensive Bundy, which was 30 years old when I got it, and which had never really been maintained. In retrospect, I realize low B key didn't seat well, so it always squeaked going over the break. I've repadded a clarinet, and that very much feels like an easy fix to me-- I have no explanations about why it remained a problem for my middle and high-school years.
There are reasons why that purchase of a cheap horn for your child might be a nice thing, if you lacked money or experience. But my parents were professional school administrators who met in music school. My dad was a high school band director for a while and my mother studied flute in the university.
Having had my own children, that action has curious what analogous damage I've done to them via similar mechanisms.
That's not a big harm (certainly not abuse, as was the case in the OP's story), but until about a month ago when I bought myself a clarinet I hadn't realized how much resentment I was carrying from that time.
Playing that horn was deeply frustrating, and with all the things I know about music at this point I cannot imagine trying to get children to learn on badly functioning instruments-- there are just so many other impediments to their learning that it takes a difficult task and might make it impossible.
However, it's been quite soothing to realize that I am an adult who can take care of myself, and to simply fill needs as they come up. So I bought myself a reasonable student horn (a Buffet e12, and I did get a good deal on it, I think) and I've been playing tunes from the real books.
The amount of catharsis I've gotten from simply filling something that was once an unrecognized long-term need driven by frustration has been a bit worrisome, but it's probably healthy in some sense.
I play enough music that I suspect there is some kind of underlying pathology.
Like, I am usually in 3-4 bands, have performed on 10+ instruments on stage this year. I spent 3 hours today playing clarinet waiting for google billing support, and another hour or so on trumpet this morning. And in a bit, I will be getting on the pedal steel for an evening scale pickin session.
I just started the clarinet again and it has been really weird. It was my instrument all through high school. My parents were super proud that they had been able to score a super inexpensive Bundy, which was 30 years old when I got it, and which had never really been maintained. In retrospect, I realize low B key didn't seat well, so it always squeaked going over the break. I've repadded a clarinet, and that very much feels like an easy fix to me-- I have no explanations about why it remained a problem for my middle and high-school years.
There are reasons why that purchase of a cheap horn for your child might be a nice thing, if you lacked money or experience. But my parents were professional school administrators who met in music school. My dad was a high school band director for a while and my mother studied flute in the university.
Having had my own children, that action has curious what analogous damage I've done to them via similar mechanisms.
That's not a big harm (certainly not abuse, as was the case in the OP's story), but until about a month ago when I bought myself a clarinet I hadn't realized how much resentment I was carrying from that time.
Playing that horn was deeply frustrating, and with all the things I know about music at this point I cannot imagine trying to get children to learn on badly functioning instruments-- there are just so many other impediments to their learning that it takes a difficult task and might make it impossible.
However, it's been quite soothing to realize that I am an adult who can take care of myself, and to simply fill needs as they come up. So I bought myself a reasonable student horn (a Buffet e12, and I did get a good deal on it, I think) and I've been playing tunes from the real books.
The amount of catharsis I've gotten from simply filling something that was once an unrecognized long-term need driven by frustration has been a bit worrisome, but it's probably healthy in some sense.
Great journey.
> my parents displayed a bunch of trinkets, including a 19th-century clock made entirely out of metal which vibrated
I bet it was the mother…
I bet it was the mother…
Bechstein itself is to be loved, too. While their pianos are super premium just as those from Steinway, they also produce the Hoffmann-brand on their own, which is much more affordable. In contrast, Steinway more or less sells rebranded pianos from Asia as their lower brands.
For those not into pianos: Steinway and Bechstein are premium manufacturers from Germany, like BMW and Mercedes. (Fazioli would be the Rolls Royce then).