Revisiting a controversial question, looking for honest feed back not shaming
24 comments
The question of whether to get vaccinated against COVID-19 has indeed been highly politicised and in some circles is even used as means of identitarian virtue signalling.
There might also be ulterior motives at play, such as continued non-pharmaceutical interventions being justified by a lack in vaccine uptake or politicians whose views on the matter hinge on demonstrably false statements such as the claim that vaccines will provide long-term protection against contracting the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
However, all that doesn't mean that mRNA vaccines don't work or that one shouldn't get vaccinated for these reasons. mRNA vaccines are a tremendous technological achievement, generally very safe, and a boon for mankind.
Getting vaccinated shouldn't be a political decision, but entirely depend on an individual's personal decision and be motivated by medical and individual risk considerations alone.
For by far the most people that simply means getting vaccinated, much more so for individuals who are at a higher risk of severe complications from a SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Interestingly, as a side note and since you mentioned that particular risk factor, obesity is associated with a similarly increased risk (about ten times) of severe COVID-19 symptoms as not being vaccinated.
However, very little is being done to motivate people to lose weight to improve their potential outcome when contracting COVID-19. That, in turn, tells a lot about our healthcare systems and the political decisions driving those.
There might also be ulterior motives at play, such as continued non-pharmaceutical interventions being justified by a lack in vaccine uptake or politicians whose views on the matter hinge on demonstrably false statements such as the claim that vaccines will provide long-term protection against contracting the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
However, all that doesn't mean that mRNA vaccines don't work or that one shouldn't get vaccinated for these reasons. mRNA vaccines are a tremendous technological achievement, generally very safe, and a boon for mankind.
Getting vaccinated shouldn't be a political decision, but entirely depend on an individual's personal decision and be motivated by medical and individual risk considerations alone.
For by far the most people that simply means getting vaccinated, much more so for individuals who are at a higher risk of severe complications from a SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Interestingly, as a side note and since you mentioned that particular risk factor, obesity is associated with a similarly increased risk (about ten times) of severe COVID-19 symptoms as not being vaccinated.
However, very little is being done to motivate people to lose weight to improve their potential outcome when contracting COVID-19. That, in turn, tells a lot about our healthcare systems and the political decisions driving those.
entirely depend on an individual's personal decision and be motivated by medical and individual risk considerations alone
The problem is that they are entirely unqualified to make medical risk considerations. If they were capable of making them, they would already know the answer.
They won't learn anything from asking us. Most of the people replying are themselves not qualified. Even for those who give the right answer, the asker isn't in a position to tell.
The best advice I could give is to ask their doctor, who knows both their specific case and the latest information on the state of the disease. They're not an epidemiological expert, but they're far more qualified in both the general case and this instance.
Except that you and I already know what their doctor is going to tell them: get the vaccine. It's the only answer that makes even the tiniest bit of sense: very low risk, very high reward, and no amount of "maybe I'm an edge case" is anywhere near enough to overcome that very basic answer.
And therefore my advice would automatically be dismissed by those who disagree. It would amount to saying "Don't believe me, believe that other person, who I happen to know will agree with me." Those who disagree will challenge me on that, and I don't really have a reply that they will accept.
The problem is that they are entirely unqualified to make medical risk considerations. If they were capable of making them, they would already know the answer.
They won't learn anything from asking us. Most of the people replying are themselves not qualified. Even for those who give the right answer, the asker isn't in a position to tell.
The best advice I could give is to ask their doctor, who knows both their specific case and the latest information on the state of the disease. They're not an epidemiological expert, but they're far more qualified in both the general case and this instance.
Except that you and I already know what their doctor is going to tell them: get the vaccine. It's the only answer that makes even the tiniest bit of sense: very low risk, very high reward, and no amount of "maybe I'm an edge case" is anywhere near enough to overcome that very basic answer.
And therefore my advice would automatically be dismissed by those who disagree. It would amount to saying "Don't believe me, believe that other person, who I happen to know will agree with me." Those who disagree will challenge me on that, and I don't really have a reply that they will accept.
My doctor almost warned me about getting vaccinated - said it was untested, long term side effects wholly unknown and said it could have complications regarding the autoimmune system.
But now doctors can't even tell you their opinion in some states.
https://archive.ph/x62lm - "California Approves Bill to Punish Doctors Who Spread False Information" [NYTIMES]
I'm all for stopping the spread of false information - but who decides what is false information ? Before you answer - think about how often the first answer that came to mind have been wrong in the past.
But now doctors can't even tell you their opinion in some states.
https://archive.ph/x62lm - "California Approves Bill to Punish Doctors Who Spread False Information" [NYTIMES]
I'm all for stopping the spread of false information - but who decides what is false information ? Before you answer - think about how often the first answer that came to mind have been wrong in the past.
> My doctor almost warned me about getting vaccinated - said it was untested, long term side effects wholly unknown and said it could have complications regarding the autoimmune system.
>
> But now doctors can't even tell you their opinion in some states.
In most jurisdictions, physicians are certainly allowed and able to state their personal opinion on a medical matter when talking to their patients personally. There just may be limitations as to what they can say publicly, especially when evoking the impression that their opinion represents an official guideline or scientifically accepted fact.
Sometimes, doctors aren't even that well-informed themselves either. Your doctor's statement that Covid vaccines are untested and long-term side effects are largely or even wholly unknown is patently false, for example.
COVID-19 vaccines have been thoroughly tested before having been administered to the general public. Furthermore, since COVID-19 vaccines are among the most widely used drugs in medical history, any long-term side effects would be known by now due to the huge sample size.
'Long-term effect' in this respect doesn't mean "effect that will only occur in the long run" but "effect that will manifest relatively shortly after administration but have a lasting effect on the patient".
In most jurisdictions, physicians are certainly allowed and able to state their personal opinion on a medical matter when talking to their patients personally. There just may be limitations as to what they can say publicly, especially when evoking the impression that their opinion represents an official guideline or scientifically accepted fact.
Sometimes, doctors aren't even that well-informed themselves either. Your doctor's statement that Covid vaccines are untested and long-term side effects are largely or even wholly unknown is patently false, for example.
COVID-19 vaccines have been thoroughly tested before having been administered to the general public. Furthermore, since COVID-19 vaccines are among the most widely used drugs in medical history, any long-term side effects would be known by now due to the huge sample size.
'Long-term effect' in this respect doesn't mean "effect that will only occur in the long run" but "effect that will manifest relatively shortly after administration but have a lasting effect on the patient".
You may find this blog helpful, she's been generally ahead of the curve on where coronavirus is going.
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/
Not a doctor - I've done about 1500 hours of independent research - I would recommend against it
Anecdata: Do you feel like your health has gotten overall better or worse since starting your covid vaccine regime?
Reading your comments you come off as having some type of guilt about "red pills" or other culture war type stuff - Look how many qualifiers you added to this post ("controversial question" , "not shaming", etc.)
There's nothing to feel guilty about and you can skip all the emotional stuff. Here is reality: Meta is laying off 11,000 workers today many of whom no doubt complied with the covid vaccine mandates. You need to zoom out and ask yourself if the values of mandated vaccines are in alignment with your values, which seems to be an equal question you are asking along with the medical advice.
I hope this comment can help you come to a decision.
Anecdata: Do you feel like your health has gotten overall better or worse since starting your covid vaccine regime?
Reading your comments you come off as having some type of guilt about "red pills" or other culture war type stuff - Look how many qualifiers you added to this post ("controversial question" , "not shaming", etc.)
There's nothing to feel guilty about and you can skip all the emotional stuff. Here is reality: Meta is laying off 11,000 workers today many of whom no doubt complied with the covid vaccine mandates. You need to zoom out and ask yourself if the values of mandated vaccines are in alignment with your values, which seems to be an equal question you are asking along with the medical advice.
I hope this comment can help you come to a decision.
The questions you're asking are not really coherent. mRNA vaccines are pretty well understood. The vaccine delivers a payload to your own cells which cause them to produce viral proteins. These proteins in turn cause an immune response and help you fight off any future infection because immune cells have memory and leverage information from the vaccine proteins to fight off the real virus.
mRNA vaccines are essentially a form of genetic engineering but their safety record is better than basically all other forms of immunization so if you've already had 3 boosters and no negative side-effects then getting another one isn't going to hurt you any more than the previous shots.
You should also quit smoking and start exercising since that's better than whatever else you could do for your health and general well-being.
mRNA vaccines are essentially a form of genetic engineering but their safety record is better than basically all other forms of immunization so if you've already had 3 boosters and no negative side-effects then getting another one isn't going to hurt you any more than the previous shots.
You should also quit smoking and start exercising since that's better than whatever else you could do for your health and general well-being.
What does well understood mean in this context?
The mRNA enters the cell because of some addition to it, which seems to be the key here. What is exactly coded in front of that spike protein to enter a cell and what happens with it inside the cell?
Is this part required to enter the cell just discarded?
The cell starts production of viral protein by copying the mRNA again and keeps doing so for while. Then it somehow stops... What exactly stops this process, except for heat shock?
Are the cells injected with the mRNA gobbled up by the immun system or does it stop on its own to produce the viral protein?
How does the viral protein leave the cell after it is produced inside of it? For a production of a virus it would stay inside until the virus is fully assembled. Is there a trick to the mRNA stuff, that makes the cell produce the viral particles outside of itself so the immun system can get to it?
Or is the cell bursting at some point when it is completely overloaded with viral protein?
The cell starts production of viral protein by copying the mRNA again and keeps doing so for while. Then it somehow stops... What exactly stops this process, except for heat shock?
Are the cells injected with the mRNA gobbled up by the immun system or does it stop on its own to produce the viral protein?
How does the viral protein leave the cell after it is produced inside of it? For a production of a virus it would stay inside until the virus is fully assembled. Is there a trick to the mRNA stuff, that makes the cell produce the viral particles outside of itself so the immun system can get to it?
Or is the cell bursting at some point when it is completely overloaded with viral protein?
I explained what happens at a level of abstraction that makes sense for what was being asked. If you want more details then get in touch with a real biologist or geneticist. I'm not the person to answer your questions.
The mRNA is misinformation that tells the cell to produce the spike protein of coronavirus on its cell membrane. Those membranes are how cells interact with their environment. Later immune cells interact with those same spike proteins to identify the right antibodies to fight off the foreign, spike proteins. All without ever actually exposing the patient to coronavirus.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Thankyou for the respectful response, this is the stuff I need to see. Unfortunately I seem to be caught up in a spiral of sorts and the only information I am receiving is from either extremely partisan media outlets and or algorithms that are pushing "Red Pill" narratives my way. I try to watch the other media sources but find them so disingenuous I can't make it more than a few minutes before retreating back into my right wing echo chambers!
PS: Sorry for baiting my questions with anti Justin rhetoric but I think it will trigger the right...or wrong individuals for answering my question honestly!
PS: Sorry for baiting my questions with anti Justin rhetoric but I think it will trigger the right...or wrong individuals for answering my question honestly!
I don't know what "Justin rhetoric" is but if you want more accurate information then you won't find it in the usual places. Wikipedia articles are usually a good starting point for most things because they contain a list of references and first-hand sources. That's how I learned about mRNA vaccines and it was better than whatever was being blasted on social media and mainstream news outlets.
Thankyou for the tip, IDK why I have not visited Wikipedia. Probably a combination of negative feedback from times I used it as a source and personal laziness.
Thankyou for taking the time to respond.
Thankyou for taking the time to respond.
Quit smoking.
Just did a cold turkey recently - if I can do it, you can do it.
Be well.
Be well.
> Has the virus mutated to a less deadly strain? (It is my understanding this is a common trait of "pandemical" virial diseases.)
It has not (necessarily), and it is not. There is no evolutionary pressure on a virus becoming milder over time, it can go both ways. What you see in action is the vaccines working, they were conceived to reduce the risk of death, and they did so successfully, hence you see lower deaths. Unfortunately, death is neither the only, nor maybe the most serious outcome of COVID.
We do seem to be in a situation where the acute phase of the disease is somewhat less hefty for many people, but even with the last BA.5 waves we have seen quite many hospitalizations, so the risk is definitely not low for everyone. While this is for the acute phase, the long term effects of the disease, so called LongCovid, can be absolutely devastating and we have not yet seen the real long term effects (e.g. a HIV infection also only becomes serious after ~7 years). But so far we know the disease can seriously affect cardiovascular and pulmonary health, and seems to be inducing autoimmune reactions.
Sudden cardiac deaths, just like ischemic strokes, in young healthy adults are a symptom of how much damage COVID can do. A more serious source like https://www.medrxiv.org might be a better source of information than social media videos. A good search term for what you're looking for is "post-acute sequelae SARS-Cov-2". Some papers have images which leave nothing to the imagination, even for people not trained in medicine.
Unfortunately this has become an extremely contentious subject and most people have moved far beyond the simple concept of not getting sick with an extremely serious disease.
With your health situation, I'd take the fourth shot, and remain careful when it comes to the risk of getting infected. Not getting sick is the best course of action.
It has not (necessarily), and it is not. There is no evolutionary pressure on a virus becoming milder over time, it can go both ways. What you see in action is the vaccines working, they were conceived to reduce the risk of death, and they did so successfully, hence you see lower deaths. Unfortunately, death is neither the only, nor maybe the most serious outcome of COVID.
We do seem to be in a situation where the acute phase of the disease is somewhat less hefty for many people, but even with the last BA.5 waves we have seen quite many hospitalizations, so the risk is definitely not low for everyone. While this is for the acute phase, the long term effects of the disease, so called LongCovid, can be absolutely devastating and we have not yet seen the real long term effects (e.g. a HIV infection also only becomes serious after ~7 years). But so far we know the disease can seriously affect cardiovascular and pulmonary health, and seems to be inducing autoimmune reactions.
Sudden cardiac deaths, just like ischemic strokes, in young healthy adults are a symptom of how much damage COVID can do. A more serious source like https://www.medrxiv.org might be a better source of information than social media videos. A good search term for what you're looking for is "post-acute sequelae SARS-Cov-2". Some papers have images which leave nothing to the imagination, even for people not trained in medicine.
Unfortunately this has become an extremely contentious subject and most people have moved far beyond the simple concept of not getting sick with an extremely serious disease.
With your health situation, I'd take the fourth shot, and remain careful when it comes to the risk of getting infected. Not getting sick is the best course of action.
I flagged this because HN isn't a safe or appropriate place to seek individual medical advice. Talk to a board-certified doctor.
Yes, Covid-19 mRNA vaccines deployment is full of corruption, politics and ineptitude. Having said that, you are in the elevated risk group, so if more than a couple of months passed from your last booster, I would get the fourth one. You need to take care of your general health. Diet, healthy level of vitamin D, diet, and some exercise. In that order. I am not a board-certified doctor.
Thanks for the reply, that is all reasonable and I agree. It may seem silly but there is an almost arrogant gloat coming from the antiV side currently and I have been feeling like I may have been sucked in...I am a gullible but fortunately also a deliberate individual, deliberate to the point that I seek out information from as many sources I can and TBT just reading these replies brings a balance to an otherwise one sided echo chamber I have found myself in due to political tribalism.
TYVM
TYVM
The CDC is probably hiding a lot of the damage taking place, that's where the gloating is coming from.
https://theethicalskeptic.com/
https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/a-guide-to-my-excess-morta...
https://theethicalskeptic.com/
https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/a-guide-to-my-excess-morta...
My government agency is once again reaching out to me to get a booster and I feel it is time to revisit this question.
On one side I feel like "In for an Inch in for a Mile" and "Who would the government really want to keep alive? The ones that get the jab or the squeaky wheels?" but in the recent past, there have been several revelations of how the vaccine discussion and it's efficacy was corrupted by big tech censorship and government politicization of corporate(and Public)media, our leader even made a joke about bribing them with 600 million dollars!(IMHO that was worse than joking about a gun in the airport security line, especially a handgun!!!)
I wish I could trust my government but over the last few years there are so many examples of at the best a misinformed leadership and at the worst an incompetent and willing to misinform me from my current government, and the controversies started just weeks after they were elected. (I am sorry if my thoughts are unacceptable Justin and please don't freeze my bank account Kristia!)
So please be kind and don't interpret this as anything other than an;
Overweight, High blood pressure, 50ish year old smoker and drinker that is still concerned with taking my 4th shot even though I am the posterchild for Covid death.
Thankyou for taking the time to read my question, I look forward to your opinions, thoughts.
Some things I have not been able to find the answers to:
Has the virus mutated to a less deadly strain? (It is my understanding this is a common trait of "pandemical" virial diseases.)
Has there been any determination of: The truth regarding the sudden cardiac deaths of young males and if so is there any information on how the vaccine is related to this situation?
Finally, I have seen some very partisan videos showing people having facial paralyses and in particular difficulty opening one of their eyes. Is this just BS or has there been any reputable studies done on this matter?
I am concerned that these questions and possibly many other more important questions and studies have not been done due to the stigma and possible cancelation of reputable individuals for asking and or answering these questions honestly.