India successfully launches first mission to the Moon(news.bbc.co.uk)
news.bbc.co.uk
India successfully launches first mission to the Moon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7679818.stm
67 comments
Kudos to India... I said this before when China shot a man around the Earth, and I'm going to say it again; I hope they spur another healthy space race.
The next space race will be spurred on by applications that are not purely symbolic or scientific in nature. We are seeing this today with the rise of the private commercial space industry, and I fear that the military will be close behind.
Close behind?!?!
Read a bit more space program history and you'll find the military is actually far ahead as far as applications (and budget!) are concerned.
Read a bit more space program history and you'll find the military is actually far ahead as far as applications (and budget!) are concerned.
I have read Dr. Vikram Sarabhai's biography(http://www.geocities.com/hari_ghk/vikram.htm) and in my opinion, his hard work has paid off. Also, most of top 20-30 Indian companies might be paying taxes more than $78 million each year, so we can easily say that the program is not a burden for most of us...
As a geek, as an Indian, as an techno-historian, I am aware of how much of sacrifice people made to make this happen(eg: http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2002/11/18/stories/200...). Great work!!
"The mission is expected to cost 3.8bn rupees (£45m; $78m)."
Wow. That's amazingly cheap!
Wow. That's amazingly cheap!
To put it in perspective, this is less than what Microsoft paid for PowerSet ($100 million for a search engine), Farecast ($112 million for a airfare pricing comparision tool) or less than what Google paid for FeedBurner ($100 million for a RSS reader).
The satellite plans to do a detailed mapping of the entire lunar surface. If a web startup built an application in the lines of Google Maps using these mappings that would probably sell for more than $78 million, more than the whole cost of the Moon mission. Bit if an exaggeration but you get the point.
The satellite plans to do a detailed mapping of the entire lunar surface. If a web startup built an application in the lines of Google Maps using these mappings that would probably sell for more than $78 million, more than the whole cost of the Moon mission. Bit if an exaggeration but you get the point.
If I recall correctly, part of the way that NASA is setup is to be deliberately spread out across many congressional districts - making it hard to cut it's legs out from under it because it will effect jobs in too many congressman's districts.
The downside to this is that it's also a great way of bringing lots of bullshit jobs into a district, and makes things VERY expensive.
Not surprising that India can do this cheaply - hopefully some of our private sector space companies will learn from what they're doing and improve on it.
The downside to this is that it's also a great way of bringing lots of bullshit jobs into a district, and makes things VERY expensive.
Not surprising that India can do this cheaply - hopefully some of our private sector space companies will learn from what they're doing and improve on it.
It is still somewhat surprising that India can do this cheaply. After all they government is even more inefficient in general.
That's within the budget of many Silicon Valley duders. I would suspect that figure belies some costs they aren't taking into account.
Space launch is just not as hard as we've been led to believe by those sucking at the government teat.
In 1980, a 2nd world country was getting ready to assemble a launch system that would've attained launch costs as low as $600 per kg. (This would've been limited to hardened or bulk cargoes due to high G forces, but that's still awesome and damn useful!) The price of this system was only $25 million (1980.) That's a game changing technology and it's still within the reach of a group of "Silicon Valley duders."
http://www.astronautix.com/country/iraq.htm
In 1980, a 2nd world country was getting ready to assemble a launch system that would've attained launch costs as low as $600 per kg. (This would've been limited to hardened or bulk cargoes due to high G forces, but that's still awesome and damn useful!) The price of this system was only $25 million (1980.) That's a game changing technology and it's still within the reach of a group of "Silicon Valley duders."
http://www.astronautix.com/country/iraq.htm
Your missing one variable: profit.
No rich silicon valley duder is going to spend $25 million unless hes gets a return.
No rich silicon valley duder is going to spend $25 million unless hes gets a return.
Would status count as a kind of profit?
I would believe the opposite. It is India, labor and infra costs would be much lower.
In fact the actual spend would be lesser than $78M considering departments always over bill on construction/development costs.
In fact the actual spend would be lesser than $78M considering departments always over bill on construction/development costs.
> Silicon Valley duders
What is a "duder"? Is that equivalent to "Silicon Valley dudes"?
What is a "duder"? Is that equivalent to "Silicon Valley dudes"?
A "duder" would be a person that made dudes.
Really? From urbandictionary:
"Duder is a word of many possibilites. It can be used as a replacement for dude. It can also be used to mean someone is more dude-like than someone else (as in dude, duder, dudest.) It has also been known to be used to describe objects for which the name has been temporarily forgotten, or otherwise unknown to the user of the word. Still yet another usage is a verb which means the act of being a dude or doing dudely things."
"Duder is a word of many possibilites. It can be used as a replacement for dude. It can also be used to mean someone is more dude-like than someone else (as in dude, duder, dudest.) It has also been known to be used to describe objects for which the name has been temporarily forgotten, or otherwise unknown to the user of the word. Still yet another usage is a verb which means the act of being a dude or doing dudely things."
Keep in mind how much of the cost is people-hours, which would be on the order of 10-20 times more in the United States.
India is actually 6th to launch mission to the moon. And ISRO/DRDO are not thought to be good career choices by young Indians by far!!!
Also, I think that we will see this turn into a prestige issue with competing neighbours like Pakistan and China taking note and perhaps speeding up their mission too!!!
Yeah, but we really ought to stop using extraneous punctuation.
still almost 100% techies in India never prefer or think about joining ISRO/DRDO which are world-class research organizations.
"still almost 100% techies in India never prefer or think about joining ISRO/DRDO which are world-class research organizations."
I've consulted for both the DRDO and the ISRO on some very technical projects.
You are partially right. Manpower is a problem in both organizations, with the best people going to the United States. That said "world-class research organizations" is a bit of a stretch. There are specific departments which do world class research, but by and large ISRO and DRDO are far from that ideal.
Plenty of "scientists" pushing paper and just wasting time in the office and waiting for 5 o clock in the evening so they can go home. Being part of the Indian government, the wastage of resources is appalling (to someone who's worked in the private sector / run his own business)
I've consulted for both the DRDO and the ISRO on some very technical projects.
You are partially right. Manpower is a problem in both organizations, with the best people going to the United States. That said "world-class research organizations" is a bit of a stretch. There are specific departments which do world class research, but by and large ISRO and DRDO are far from that ideal.
Plenty of "scientists" pushing paper and just wasting time in the office and waiting for 5 o clock in the evening so they can go home. Being part of the Indian government, the wastage of resources is appalling (to someone who's worked in the private sector / run his own business)
Not entirely right. Before the software industry's success in India, most engineers would either aim for ISRO/DRDO or other niche government organizations.
The software industry simply offers better prospects - better pay and faster career growth.
The software industry simply offers better prospects - better pay and faster career growth.
Partially true; because even before the software boom, most techies aimed at working in a foreign country (like the US) where they would be much more well-payed.
I wonder the same. I myself would so much love to be at ISRO/DRDO. They have tons of other facilities to match the high pay at software companies.
I wish they had better ways of recruiting people with merit and passion. They are full of either Brahmins or SC/ST and people who are recruited through references.
I wish they had better ways of recruiting people with merit and passion. They are full of either Brahmins or SC/ST and people who are recruited through references.
> full of either Brahmins or SC/ST
thank you for bringing your prejudices here. do you have any numbers to back that up?
> people who are recruited through references
this need not be a bad thing ,which is why most companies have a internal referral program.
thank you for bringing your prejudices here. do you have any numbers to back that up?
> people who are recruited through references
this need not be a bad thing ,which is why most companies have a internal referral program.
I thought I shall mail you instead but couldn't find a contact or any useful information on your profile page.
Please walk into IISc and you shall know. It is not merely about the number it is about the people who would control the system. I agree the divide based on caste is gradually lowering however we are still not there yet.
It is a fact that all of these research institutes are concentrated in the south - IISc, ISRO, DRDO (and the rest in CV RamanNagar, Bangalore) and casteism has always been the problem here.
NASA has a large number of Indians. I am sure Indian Research would be in a lot better state if they evangelize and hire more youngsters.
We definitely have a smart bunch of people in pure sciences than in business. Why do you think we cannot retain them here in India ?
Please walk into IISc and you shall know. It is not merely about the number it is about the people who would control the system. I agree the divide based on caste is gradually lowering however we are still not there yet.
It is a fact that all of these research institutes are concentrated in the south - IISc, ISRO, DRDO (and the rest in CV RamanNagar, Bangalore) and casteism has always been the problem here.
NASA has a large number of Indians. I am sure Indian Research would be in a lot better state if they evangelize and hire more youngsters.
We definitely have a smart bunch of people in pure sciences than in business. Why do you think we cannot retain them here in India ?
you are bringing up two very different things here.
1) you said IISC was " full of either Brahmins or SC/ST" , and when asked to back it up , you're saying "Please walk into IISc and you shall know".
That means nothing. You can either prove it or you cant. It seems like you cant,so lets drop it.
2) "We definitely have a smart bunch of people in pure sciences than in business. Why do you think we cannot retain them here in India ?"
This is a very interesting question to me. And it seems like you are playing a very important part in retaining "smart" people by organizing/being involved in things like Barcamp.in etc.
1) you said IISC was " full of either Brahmins or SC/ST" , and when asked to back it up , you're saying "Please walk into IISc and you shall know".
That means nothing. You can either prove it or you cant. It seems like you cant,so lets drop it.
2) "We definitely have a smart bunch of people in pure sciences than in business. Why do you think we cannot retain them here in India ?"
This is a very interesting question to me. And it seems like you are playing a very important part in retaining "smart" people by organizing/being involved in things like Barcamp.in etc.
India will comprehensively prosper when 85% of all registered marriages are Inter-Caste or Inter-Religious.
> full of either Brahmins or SC/ST
These are contradictory. I think you need to pick one and make up your mind on who to blame.
By "full of brahmins" you are implying the that the forward class controls the power, has a strangle hold keeping down the lower castes. But if that were the case the SC/STs - the lowest of the low per the caste system - wouldn't be there. The presence of SC/STs implies that the system of reservation (whether you agree with it or not) is working and the forward class doesn't have a strangle hold (esp considering that OBCs also have reservations).
By "full of SC/ST" you are insinuating that the place is full of people who are there because of reservation (ie affirmative action) who don't really deserve to be there. But the presence of brahmins would imply that some people are actually getting in because of merit because the brahmins don't have any reservation whatsoever anywhere. So again, the system, albeit flawed, seems to be working.
If these places were somehow oscillating between power hungry brahmins trying to keep everybody else down and undeserving SC/STs I doubt that they would be a cohesive group doing good work which they seem to be.
Maybe you are just missing people of your background/religion/caste/language/area? I presume you are neither a Brahmin nor a SC/ST?
You also mentioned in your follow up post that these institution are in the south and casteism is always a problem there as if in comparison to the rest of the country. Casteism is a problem all over India and the following is not to justify it in any sense. But if anything I would say the south is probably better off than the rest of the country. The population of forward castes is below average overall so the lower castes have a much bigger voice democratically. This is also why TN had till very recently a 69% reservation and anti-reservation riots are a bigger deal in the North (remember the Mandal protests?) than in the south. Communal polarization too is in general higher in the North. Bangalore is usually considered a very cosmopolitan/diverse city and having lived there (and not being a native) I agree.
From a comparison of the different regions ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_states_rankings ) the south overall seems to be doing better than the rest of India. The southern states are doing above average (and in many cases close to the top) economically, in literacy, infrastructure etc. The three top "technological centres" of India that one hears about mostly - Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderdabad - are also in the south. This inspite of the fact that India has mostly has Prime Ministers from the North (except for two - one of whom - P. V Narasimha Rao - is considered instrumental for our economic liberalization along with our current PM who was then the finance minister). So seems like these states have managed to have better governance. None of these are direct indications of casteism rates and I'm not trying to say that things are just fine in the south and there is no casteism. In general, it seems to me that economic growth/quality of life/good governance etc are indicators of reduced polarization. I don't have numbers to back that up, just an impression. My general impression is that while casteism definitely exists in the south, things are probably better there.
These are contradictory. I think you need to pick one and make up your mind on who to blame.
By "full of brahmins" you are implying the that the forward class controls the power, has a strangle hold keeping down the lower castes. But if that were the case the SC/STs - the lowest of the low per the caste system - wouldn't be there. The presence of SC/STs implies that the system of reservation (whether you agree with it or not) is working and the forward class doesn't have a strangle hold (esp considering that OBCs also have reservations).
By "full of SC/ST" you are insinuating that the place is full of people who are there because of reservation (ie affirmative action) who don't really deserve to be there. But the presence of brahmins would imply that some people are actually getting in because of merit because the brahmins don't have any reservation whatsoever anywhere. So again, the system, albeit flawed, seems to be working.
If these places were somehow oscillating between power hungry brahmins trying to keep everybody else down and undeserving SC/STs I doubt that they would be a cohesive group doing good work which they seem to be.
Maybe you are just missing people of your background/religion/caste/language/area? I presume you are neither a Brahmin nor a SC/ST?
You also mentioned in your follow up post that these institution are in the south and casteism is always a problem there as if in comparison to the rest of the country. Casteism is a problem all over India and the following is not to justify it in any sense. But if anything I would say the south is probably better off than the rest of the country. The population of forward castes is below average overall so the lower castes have a much bigger voice democratically. This is also why TN had till very recently a 69% reservation and anti-reservation riots are a bigger deal in the North (remember the Mandal protests?) than in the south. Communal polarization too is in general higher in the North. Bangalore is usually considered a very cosmopolitan/diverse city and having lived there (and not being a native) I agree.
From a comparison of the different regions ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_states_rankings ) the south overall seems to be doing better than the rest of India. The southern states are doing above average (and in many cases close to the top) economically, in literacy, infrastructure etc. The three top "technological centres" of India that one hears about mostly - Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderdabad - are also in the south. This inspite of the fact that India has mostly has Prime Ministers from the North (except for two - one of whom - P. V Narasimha Rao - is considered instrumental for our economic liberalization along with our current PM who was then the finance minister). So seems like these states have managed to have better governance. None of these are direct indications of casteism rates and I'm not trying to say that things are just fine in the south and there is no casteism. In general, it seems to me that economic growth/quality of life/good governance etc are indicators of reduced polarization. I don't have numbers to back that up, just an impression. My general impression is that while casteism definitely exists in the south, things are probably better there.
I understand pretty well what I am bringing up here. If you did follow the saga during the protests against quota system - there are two broad categories GM & OBC. No government entity can deny admission to OBC. As for as GM goes - in some institutes where applicants have to go through interviews or they are recruited on a demand basis there is always a huge influence of clan - which makes the concentration of Brahmin clan.
Regarding distribution of castes in the entire population - it is of no interest. We are speaking only of the institutes - IISc, ISRO, DRDO and that it is skewed with Brahmins and SC/ST. Additionally, existence is not same as power/ influence. I can bet the environment looks better at any of the IITs or RECs. That should suffice as a response.
Please follow up offline (Again I think u joined yesterday just to fire this debate with no info on profile) if u do want to fire a debate or do some follow up or walk into IISC or ISRO. I think HN is not a right place.
Regarding distribution of castes in the entire population - it is of no interest. We are speaking only of the institutes - IISc, ISRO, DRDO and that it is skewed with Brahmins and SC/ST. Additionally, existence is not same as power/ influence. I can bet the environment looks better at any of the IITs or RECs. That should suffice as a response.
Please follow up offline (Again I think u joined yesterday just to fire this debate with no info on profile) if u do want to fire a debate or do some follow up or walk into IISC or ISRO. I think HN is not a right place.
> Again I think u joined yesterday just to fire this debate
There is a created field in the profile.
Edit: And yes, this should not have been raised here in the first place. This is not the forum for random prejudices.
There is a created field in the profile.
Edit: And yes, this should not have been raised here in the first place. This is not the forum for random prejudices.
I think you are too coward to even expose your identity and falsely blaming this as a random prejudice when you are incompetent of understanding what is written.
> this should not have been raised here in the first place. I am not a coward and I expressed what I strongly feel about and have seen first hand. I am not taking it back nor am I continuing this wasteful discussion trying to get some sense into people like you and below commenter (I guess its the same person). Existence of you folks is what forces the brain drain.
There is no point debating with you. Closed.
> this should not have been raised here in the first place. I am not a coward and I expressed what I strongly feel about and have seen first hand. I am not taking it back nor am I continuing this wasteful discussion trying to get some sense into people like you and below commenter (I guess its the same person). Existence of you folks is what forces the brain drain.
There is no point debating with you. Closed.
> I think you are too coward to even expose your identity
Ah, yes. Rational arguments. Nice.
> .. below commenter (I guess its the same person)
and conspiracy theories to boot. I don't know who the "below commenter" you are referring to is, but as I mentioned, there is a created field in the profile so you can see if my profile was created yesterday just to bother you. You ignored that. But then I guess that would of course be dealing with facts.
The point of my original post was to give you something to think about on two fronts : "full of either brahmins or SC/ST" and regarding the south that "casteism has always been a problem here". The population talk was regarding the second point (as I also mentioned in the original post). But again, you seem to have missed that.
> There is no point debating with you. Closed.
Thanks and consider the favour returned.
Ah, yes. Rational arguments. Nice.
> .. below commenter (I guess its the same person)
and conspiracy theories to boot. I don't know who the "below commenter" you are referring to is, but as I mentioned, there is a created field in the profile so you can see if my profile was created yesterday just to bother you. You ignored that. But then I guess that would of course be dealing with facts.
The point of my original post was to give you something to think about on two fronts : "full of either brahmins or SC/ST" and regarding the south that "casteism has always been a problem here". The population talk was regarding the second point (as I also mentioned in the original post). But again, you seem to have missed that.
> There is no point debating with you. Closed.
Thanks and consider the favour returned.
I think this is a great step for India. It is great to watch India develop. Maybe this will create greater competition, and enhance every nations space efforts.
India becomes the 4th country after USSR, USA and Japan. It is a great moment for the developing nation.
India has nuclear power (and weapons) and aircraft carriers. To all intents and purposes, it's a developed nation. Underestimating India on the assumption that it is "developing" or "poor" is a mistake that will bite competitor nations on the arse if they're not careful.
You will have to see it to believe it. Nuclear power or Space research are just one off achievements but the general GDP per capita speaks volumes.
Once our director visited India, where I live, considering expansion of the insurance business. He went back shocked that India needs at least 20 more years to be even considered for a systematic underwriting. Such is the state of development, government and people.
Its unfortunate but true that India is far away from being considered a developed nation. Education or Patriotism cannot change much in a extremely corrupted political system which controls everything in the country.
Once our director visited India, where I live, considering expansion of the insurance business. He went back shocked that India needs at least 20 more years to be even considered for a systematic underwriting. Such is the state of development, government and people.
Its unfortunate but true that India is far away from being considered a developed nation. Education or Patriotism cannot change much in a extremely corrupted political system which controls everything in the country.
Being in India is like being in Mexico and being in California..Depends on which part of India you visit...
It's actually the education system that is largely responsible for the "extremely corrupted political system", among other issues.
Could you elaborate on this? How does the education system largely account for corruption? Is it not cultural? I remember a when discussion of corruption in China, education was not the largest factor. It was a more historical, societal attitude.
Does the schooling method promote corrupt behavior?
Does the schooling method promote corrupt behavior?
Most teachers in Indian Engineering colleges are not practitioners. The profession has extremely low pay compared to other options and hence one of the least preferred one among professionals.
Most universities do not go after high performing engineers to join the faculty , but just mass recruit new college passouts who later climb the job ladder to reach senior positions.Add to this all the reservations based on caste and religion. Except for IITs and some government run engineering colleges, its a very weak educational system in place.
The situation in government departments is not different. New college passouts prefer well paid private jobs than the ones in public sector.
Bad teachers and less talented engineers in public sector: A recipe for corruption.
Most universities do not go after high performing engineers to join the faculty , but just mass recruit new college passouts who later climb the job ladder to reach senior positions.Add to this all the reservations based on caste and religion. Except for IITs and some government run engineering colleges, its a very weak educational system in place.
The situation in government departments is not different. New college passouts prefer well paid private jobs than the ones in public sector.
Bad teachers and less talented engineers in public sector: A recipe for corruption.
A big cultural problem also amplifies this: a majority of the middle and upper class families want their children to become engineers.
Our country does not need any more corporate drones, we need better politicians.
Our country does not need any more corporate drones, we need better politicians.
While India is booming in many ways, it still cannot be called developed. There is still a huge divide between the rich and poor and poverty is still a major roadblock.
But doesn't every developed country depend on a large pool of cheap labour (i.e. poor people, working for low wages)?
You could look at is as Europe and the US just outsourcing their cheap labour, whereas India keeps it in-house?
You could look at is as Europe and the US just outsourcing their cheap labour, whereas India keeps it in-house?
What you are not getting is that while outsourcing does mean cheap labour for Europe and US, it is not necessarily cheap for India(you mentioned keeping in-house). What you think is cheap are standard wages in India. It is cost cutting for US companies but not for Indian companies.
No, I do get that. Perhaps I wasn't clear.
I was trying to point out that these same pool of people (low-paid workers in India and/or China) are necessary to the economies of all developed economies. And so it's not really fair to say India isn't a developed economy simply because it contains this pool of people.
I was trying to point out that these same pool of people (low-paid workers in India and/or China) are necessary to the economies of all developed economies. And so it's not really fair to say India isn't a developed economy simply because it contains this pool of people.
Certainly not.
Could you elaborate, please?
There are countries where all of the largest expenditures (except oil) are for products produced domestically by the non-poor classes.
Even here in the US. The only significant things that I, personally, spend money on that are significantly made overseas are my car, oil, and computer. Even if the price of those all doubled, it would still be only a small part of my budget.
The outsourcing epidemic is somewhat overstated.
Even here in the US. The only significant things that I, personally, spend money on that are significantly made overseas are my car, oil, and computer. Even if the price of those all doubled, it would still be only a small part of my budget.
The outsourcing epidemic is somewhat overstated.
I don't live in the US, but I was under the impression that the vast majority of consumer goods for sale were fabricated in China (or perhaps assembled from parts fabricated in China). Is that not your perception?
I may be wrong, but also, your purchasing habits may not be in line with the majority.
Or maybe you aren't talking about the US? I think the same is true of the UK - are you talking about other European countries? Which of them still has a significant manafacturing base?
I may be wrong, but also, your purchasing habits may not be in line with the majority.
Or maybe you aren't talking about the US? I think the same is true of the UK - are you talking about other European countries? Which of them still has a significant manafacturing base?
The vast majority of my spending is not on consumer goods. I accept your point that I don't know the actual numbers for typical people.
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So it's a developed nation with a huge underclass.
True. There's a long way to go before India can be called developed. However, the good thing about the moon mission is that it is a testament to the quality of the engineering talent at ISRO. Given that ISRO is significantly behind other options as a career for Indian engineers, the fact these engineers themselves are so competent is good news for the engineering ecosystem in India.
I am well aware of the situation in India, while it is true that there are competent engineers at ISRO, it is also saddening that the govt. is not allocating sufficent money for research. Most of the brightest talent is absorbed by private companies as it is a much better choice compared on monetary basis.
The point here is not whether India is developed or not. Nobody in India realistically expects India to become a "developed nation" for another 30 years. The point here is progress... Going to the moon wasn't even thought of 10 years ago...
"Poverty is still there, 80% of the population live on 20 rupees (25p) a day, according to a survey, but a large well off group has also emerged. Some 250 million are reckoned to be very well off, many of them very rich."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6946800.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6946800.stm
Having just gotten technology from half a century ago isn't a very good metric for labeling a country developed.
Yours is really a poor definition for “developed nation.” A more standard definition of development is based the amount of available capital in an economy. Compared to W. Europe, Japan, N. America, etc., India has a pitifully low amount of capital, per capita (also a poor population: 25% is still below the official poverty line, etc.). Interestingly, one of the chief factors slowing Indian economic growth may be that it has avoided specializing in products requiring cheap unskilled labor (e.g. textiles), as China, etc., have, instead wielding protectionist policies which supported local capital but ultimately weakened its ability to compete on the world market, and other regulation, like draconian labor laws, which have discouraged direct foreign investment. See <http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/01/why...;
Its first LUNAR PROBE would be a clearer headline. India is far from a manned mission.
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