Germany is short of workers, but its migrants are struggling to find jobs(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Germany is short of workers, but its migrants are struggling to find jobs
https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-is-short-of-workers-but-its-migrants-are-struggling-to-find-jobs-11670844930
35 comments
> German "Auslaenderfeindlichkeit" won't help either.
I think this is a unfair generalization. Positivity towards migrants in Germany is above EU average:
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/25/european...
So while there is for sure xenophobia in Germany, I would not say that it is particularly a German thing.
11% of the current Bundestag members have a migration background (names and looks as well), which is lower than the share in the population, but the number is growing with each election. It seems like social mobility for migrants exists in Germany.
> Where else than Canada can you find the highest number of taxi/Uber drivers with a law/medical degree?
Foreign law degrees would be pretty useless in Germany or Canada or most other countries, even if they were more accepted. A better example may be physicists driving taxi while there are not enough science teachers in schools.
Of course equivalent education should be more accepted where possible, but when it comes to medical staff or other safety-critical jobs, I expect people to be at least well-tested before they can start to work as a doctor in Germany. There are countries where degrees can be bought for money, while Germany indeed has pretty high (and famous) standards for safety. Many wealthy foreigners come to Germany for surgeries.
I think this is a unfair generalization. Positivity towards migrants in Germany is above EU average:
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/25/european...
So while there is for sure xenophobia in Germany, I would not say that it is particularly a German thing.
11% of the current Bundestag members have a migration background (names and looks as well), which is lower than the share in the population, but the number is growing with each election. It seems like social mobility for migrants exists in Germany.
> Where else than Canada can you find the highest number of taxi/Uber drivers with a law/medical degree?
Foreign law degrees would be pretty useless in Germany or Canada or most other countries, even if they were more accepted. A better example may be physicists driving taxi while there are not enough science teachers in schools.
Of course equivalent education should be more accepted where possible, but when it comes to medical staff or other safety-critical jobs, I expect people to be at least well-tested before they can start to work as a doctor in Germany. There are countries where degrees can be bought for money, while Germany indeed has pretty high (and famous) standards for safety. Many wealthy foreigners come to Germany for surgeries.
>Foreign law degrees would be pretty useless in Germany or Canada or most other countries, even if they were more accepted. A better example may be physicists driving taxi while there are not enough science teachers in schools.
Knowing science is a small part of teaching, especially when teaching kids where the material isn't super advanced. Other skills like communication are far more important.
Knowing science is a small part of teaching, especially when teaching kids where the material isn't super advanced. Other skills like communication are far more important.
> So while there is for sure xenophobia in Germany, I would not say that it is particularly a German thing.
You're missing the point of the article, and I guess you're German because you feel accused of being racist, so you feel the need to defend yourself. The point is that Germany is having labour shortage while immigrants are out of the labour market, singling out an inefficient resource allocation.
>Of course equivalent education should be more accepted where possible, but when it comes to medical staff or other safety-critical jobs, I expect people to be at least well-tested before they can start to work as a doctor in Germany. There are countries where degrees can be bought for money, while Germany indeed has pretty high (and famous) standards for safety. Many wealthy foreigners come to Germany for surgeries.
Germany > the world, yes I've heard that theory. Until the world see it in practice with example like dieselgate, BER etc...
You're missing the point of the article, and I guess you're German because you feel accused of being racist, so you feel the need to defend yourself. The point is that Germany is having labour shortage while immigrants are out of the labour market, singling out an inefficient resource allocation.
>Of course equivalent education should be more accepted where possible, but when it comes to medical staff or other safety-critical jobs, I expect people to be at least well-tested before they can start to work as a doctor in Germany. There are countries where degrees can be bought for money, while Germany indeed has pretty high (and famous) standards for safety. Many wealthy foreigners come to Germany for surgeries.
Germany > the world, yes I've heard that theory. Until the world see it in practice with example like dieselgate, BER etc...
> You're missing the point of the article, and I guess you're German because you feel accused of being racist, so you feel the need to defend yourself.
Yes I am German and I feel the need to defend us a bit, because the term German "Ausländerfeindlichkeit" is an unfair generalization that paints a wrong picture of Germans and I don't think that xenophobia is a main reason for worker shortage, even if that gets repeated often.
> The point is that Germany is having labour shortage while immigrants are out of the labour market, singling out an inefficient resource allocation.
One of the main reasons besides lack of qualification why immigrants are out of the labour market is that German "Bürokratie" (now this is self-evident) makes it hard for anyone who is not very proficient in German "Bürokratie" or has the legal status to get a job. However, in IT I see many colleagues with foreign backgrounds. Probably because it is easier to adapt IT skills to another country than it would be with legal or medical.
> Germany > the world, yes I've heard that theory. Until the world see it in practice with example like dieselgate, BER etc...
Yes and digitalization in Germany is a huge joke, but treating rich foreigners in German hospitals is indeed a growing market and the reason is perception of high quality.
Yes I am German and I feel the need to defend us a bit, because the term German "Ausländerfeindlichkeit" is an unfair generalization that paints a wrong picture of Germans and I don't think that xenophobia is a main reason for worker shortage, even if that gets repeated often.
> The point is that Germany is having labour shortage while immigrants are out of the labour market, singling out an inefficient resource allocation.
One of the main reasons besides lack of qualification why immigrants are out of the labour market is that German "Bürokratie" (now this is self-evident) makes it hard for anyone who is not very proficient in German "Bürokratie" or has the legal status to get a job. However, in IT I see many colleagues with foreign backgrounds. Probably because it is easier to adapt IT skills to another country than it would be with legal or medical.
> Germany > the world, yes I've heard that theory. Until the world see it in practice with example like dieselgate, BER etc...
Yes and digitalization in Germany is a huge joke, but treating rich foreigners in German hospitals is indeed a growing market and the reason is perception of high quality.
[deleted]
>Germany > the world, yes I've heard that theory. Until the world see it in practice with example like dieselgate, BER etc...
You really hate Germans, don't you. I think you have Germanphobia.
Asking for a basic equivalence of education is just fairness. Flooding the market with cheap, "educated" (but not really) labor is not a solution.
I do think Germany could do better in accepting foreign degrees, but so could the US and Canada. I have worked with plenty of outsourced IT where they did obviously buy their degree. They had no clue of the language they were supposedly expert in.
And, yes, you will find misconduct somewhere at German universities, but there are countries where you can't trust the accreditation process of universities in general and you have to run a background check on the specific university someone attended.
What we do need though is German companies to realize that they need to have internationally attractive salaries to attract international talent. And we should enable equivalence checking of foreign degrees so that international talent can work here. It just shouldn't be done blindly.
You really hate Germans, don't you. I think you have Germanphobia.
Asking for a basic equivalence of education is just fairness. Flooding the market with cheap, "educated" (but not really) labor is not a solution.
I do think Germany could do better in accepting foreign degrees, but so could the US and Canada. I have worked with plenty of outsourced IT where they did obviously buy their degree. They had no clue of the language they were supposedly expert in.
And, yes, you will find misconduct somewhere at German universities, but there are countries where you can't trust the accreditation process of universities in general and you have to run a background check on the specific university someone attended.
What we do need though is German companies to realize that they need to have internationally attractive salaries to attract international talent. And we should enable equivalence checking of foreign degrees so that international talent can work here. It just shouldn't be done blindly.
I agree that the article did not talk about racism, or at least discrimination enough. I am a german citizen of Turkish descent and work in IT. I am a native German speaker as I was born and raised in Germany. However, I had to endure countless of sublimely racist comments in many job interviews, ranging from asking where my parents came from to openly asking if I was “like one of the a-social (read: thrashy/criminal) turks”.
Even though the demand for workers in IT is high, people like me still face discrimination. I wouldn’t want to know how it is for people who don’t speak German on a native level.
Whenever I mentioned this to Germans with a brighter hue than me, they all chalk it up to some bad apples being racist. That is not the reality a lot of middle-eastern/brown looking people deal with. It impacts our day-to-day.
Even though the demand for workers in IT is high, people like me still face discrimination. I wouldn’t want to know how it is for people who don’t speak German on a native level.
Whenever I mentioned this to Germans with a brighter hue than me, they all chalk it up to some bad apples being racist. That is not the reality a lot of middle-eastern/brown looking people deal with. It impacts our day-to-day.
Being white south american in europe is quite strange, people (usually old people) ask you were you are from assuming you are going to say germany/france/italy/spain and when you say a country in SA they first frown, then, in their heads, they try to reconcile their views of that country with their views on your skin color.
For example I got told several times I don't look Brazilian and one time I remember someone completely changing their attitude (for the worse) after mentioning I was brazilian
I have one last name or German origin and one of Portuguese origin, I started putting only the german one in CVs
For example I got told several times I don't look Brazilian and one time I remember someone completely changing their attitude (for the worse) after mentioning I was brazilian
I have one last name or German origin and one of Portuguese origin, I started putting only the german one in CVs
In Germany and Europe there might be another reason why (especially older) people frown at a white German from South-America [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II)
I see!
Your story hits home for me. It's interesting to see how the social integration of migrants is judged in middle Europe. People with a Greek and Italian descent share cultural similarities with people of Turkish descent. However, they often have a brighter hue than middle-eastern people. It appears that this fact is critical in how they are treated/thought-of/questioned.
Just like the story you just told, looking “white/western” is more important than sharing the cultural values of the country you live in. I apologize for the stupid “white” and “western” terms everyone, I couldn't put better words to such a fickle concept. I also apologize for the overgeneralization, I love Germany and the wider German society.
Your story hits home for me. It's interesting to see how the social integration of migrants is judged in middle Europe. People with a Greek and Italian descent share cultural similarities with people of Turkish descent. However, they often have a brighter hue than middle-eastern people. It appears that this fact is critical in how they are treated/thought-of/questioned.
Just like the story you just told, looking “white/western” is more important than sharing the cultural values of the country you live in. I apologize for the stupid “white” and “western” terms everyone, I couldn't put better words to such a fickle concept. I also apologize for the overgeneralization, I love Germany and the wider German society.
Funny how two people can have radically different experiences.
I have lived 10 years in northern Germany as an immigrant from a poor eastern European country, never experienced anything other than kindness and openness. And yes, many of my compatriots are renowned for crime in Western Europe, so my adoptive country would have had real reasons to be xenophobic towards me.
If anything, Germany is a bit too open, as 2015 and the ensuing problems proved.
I have lived 10 years in northern Germany as an immigrant from a poor eastern European country, never experienced anything other than kindness and openness. And yes, many of my compatriots are renowned for crime in Western Europe, so my adoptive country would have had real reasons to be xenophobic towards me.
If anything, Germany is a bit too open, as 2015 and the ensuing problems proved.
> German CVs basically require photos and other information
I‘not sure where you got that from, but that’s just false. Most employers I know actively ask candidates to not submit irrelevant info like photos, gender, religion etc. in their applications as any info is a liability for an employer.
Look up AGG law and how all too easy it is to get a massive slap on the wrist for even the slightest hint of discrimination. Add PII issues on top.
I‘not sure where you got that from, but that’s just false. Most employers I know actively ask candidates to not submit irrelevant info like photos, gender, religion etc. in their applications as any info is a liability for an employer.
Look up AGG law and how all too easy it is to get a massive slap on the wrist for even the slightest hint of discrimination. Add PII issues on top.
Photos are still on > 50% of resumes I see at a medium-sized Berlin tech company. Age is also common. I can't imagine this is less common in the south and I know it's more common outside of tech. Both are still on most "how do I prepare a German resume?" guides for foreigners.
I think the photos are awful but they don't present any special PII issues. Resumes already contain names, addresses, and phone numbers and therefore need a ton of scrutiny anyway.
I think the photos are awful but they don't present any special PII issues. Resumes already contain names, addresses, and phone numbers and therefore need a ton of scrutiny anyway.
I don't know how common it is in Germany, but there is a "european format CV", official EU site where you can compose one:
https://europa.eu/europass/en
the form has top left a placeholder for a photo (though I believe it is not compulsory to add one).
I think many people will use that or some copy-paste format deriving from it.
https://europa.eu/europass/en
the form has top left a placeholder for a photo (though I believe it is not compulsory to add one).
I think many people will use that or some copy-paste format deriving from it.
[deleted]
> Which is not really much different in Canada either. Where else than Canada can you find the highest number of taxi/Uber drivers with a law/medical degree?
Cuba?
In all seriousness, it's by design. It's one of the side effects of using a point-based immigration system... that never checks for employability!
The Canadian system will just blindly grant points to someone if they possess a university degree, no matter how employable it makes them. Then it fills the yearly quota with the highest scorers. Contrast this to the United-States where an employer has to demonstrate it cannot find a qualified American worker at market rates AND that the immigrant it wished to sponsor is qualified to perform the job.
Let's be honest here for a minute and acknowledge not all foreign degrees are created equal. Academic dishonesty and corruption make certain countries and colleges known diploma mills. That's, sadly, not something Germany can fix.
Cuba?
In all seriousness, it's by design. It's one of the side effects of using a point-based immigration system... that never checks for employability!
The Canadian system will just blindly grant points to someone if they possess a university degree, no matter how employable it makes them. Then it fills the yearly quota with the highest scorers. Contrast this to the United-States where an employer has to demonstrate it cannot find a qualified American worker at market rates AND that the immigrant it wished to sponsor is qualified to perform the job.
Let's be honest here for a minute and acknowledge not all foreign degrees are created equal. Academic dishonesty and corruption make certain countries and colleges known diploma mills. That's, sadly, not something Germany can fix.
I find it odd that the article compares US green-card immigrants with the war zone refugees that fled to Germany. I mean, obviously, the US is only choosing highly qualified immigrants while Germany kind of had to accept anyone, regardless of their work history, because it was a humanitarian crisis.
The result is, unsurprisingly, that many of those people arriving in Germany - who had to flee because we bombed the shit out of their country - aren't suitably trained for white-collar high-tech jobs.
As for the "Germany hasn’t been very good at training them" part, I think it just takes a lot more time. Many of those refugees effectively have to learn the language, then redo high school, then finish university. So we're looking at a 10+ year time horizon before they are ready for the job market.
The result is, unsurprisingly, that many of those people arriving in Germany - who had to flee because we bombed the shit out of their country - aren't suitably trained for white-collar high-tech jobs.
As for the "Germany hasn’t been very good at training them" part, I think it just takes a lot more time. Many of those refugees effectively have to learn the language, then redo high school, then finish university. So we're looking at a 10+ year time horizon before they are ready for the job market.
>because we bombed the shit out of their country
Who do you mean by "we"?
Who do you mean by "we"?
For example US drones launched from and remotely controlled from Germany. Rammstein is not just a music band ;)
> war zone refugees that fled to Germany
War zone refugees? Maybe for some but definitely not all of them. [0] [1] [2] [3]
> who had to flee because we bombed the shit out of their country
We?
[0] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mikegiglio/how-to-get-a...
[1] https://www.politico.eu/article/migration-fake-syrian-passpo...
[2] https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/09/africa/fake-refugees-kenya-in...
[3] https://www.newsweek.com/thousands-refugees-fleeing-north-af...
War zone refugees? Maybe for some but definitely not all of them. [0] [1] [2] [3]
> who had to flee because we bombed the shit out of their country
We?
[0] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mikegiglio/how-to-get-a...
[1] https://www.politico.eu/article/migration-fake-syrian-passpo...
[2] https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/09/africa/fake-refugees-kenya-in...
[3] https://www.newsweek.com/thousands-refugees-fleeing-north-af...
A migrant will succeed there but you will need to speak German fluently - without that you cannot succeed.
800,00 Syrian refugees to large degree have managed to integrate with their new homeland and many have taken steps to become citizens.
800,00 Syrian refugees to large degree have managed to integrate with their new homeland and many have taken steps to become citizens.
Speaking a language fluently is subjective.
I moved from Hong Kong to UK. We studied English for 10+ years back then, and I had worked in full English environment for years. Still struggling with talking in English with local people. The accents are different, the choice of words are different, sometimes we preferred to use simple words etc. The results is I can probably understand 60-70% what the other person says, and vice versa. Fill the empty holes with guess game and I feel I sound like a total idiot in conversations sometimes. The worst part is either side repeating the same word two or three times, because the word already known to both is pronounced differently. My confidence in my English ability went from 100% to 0% in a few months.
At least for some places I can use email and I'm definitely feel much better when I can just read and write.
I moved from Hong Kong to UK. We studied English for 10+ years back then, and I had worked in full English environment for years. Still struggling with talking in English with local people. The accents are different, the choice of words are different, sometimes we preferred to use simple words etc. The results is I can probably understand 60-70% what the other person says, and vice versa. Fill the empty holes with guess game and I feel I sound like a total idiot in conversations sometimes. The worst part is either side repeating the same word two or three times, because the word already known to both is pronounced differently. My confidence in my English ability went from 100% to 0% in a few months.
At least for some places I can use email and I'm definitely feel much better when I can just read and write.
I worked for a Slovenian company for 6 years. I am from a neighbouring country with a somewhat similar language, but never moved to Slovenia. I was an outsourced member, let's say. After about 3 years I realized I can write one hell of an email. Speaking? I couldn't buy a loaf of bread, I was a bonafide idiot when I went to visit them.
> A migrant will succeed there but you will need to speak German fluently - without that you cannot succeed.
If you work in IT or media, often even English is enough.
Navigating public service can be really hard though, even if you speak perfect German, but especially if you don't.
If you work in IT or media, often even English is enough.
Navigating public service can be really hard though, even if you speak perfect German, but especially if you don't.
I was lucky when I worked in Augsburg there was a former US base nearby so most locals in the shops had some basic understanding of English but were terrible at speaking it.
The folks I worked with (IT) understood and spoke English rather well.
The folks I worked with (IT) understood and spoke English rather well.
Important to note that German is a very tricky language to speak fluently. In this case, fluently meaning no grammatical errors. Also important to note is that Germans are uptight about sentence structures being flawless.
Of all the countries I lived/visited (US, England, Turkey), the Germans are most uptight about people speaking their language correctly. I have heard similar stories about France, but I don't know first-hand.
The complexity of the German language combined with the expected level of competency lead to non-native speakers being thought of as less competent or not integrated enough for the German society.
Of all the countries I lived/visited (US, England, Turkey), the Germans are most uptight about people speaking their language correctly. I have heard similar stories about France, but I don't know first-hand.
The complexity of the German language combined with the expected level of competency lead to non-native speakers being thought of as less competent or not integrated enough for the German society.
Also, they could determine where you came from by the way you spoke German.
My home language has some Germanic roots but minus the complicated gender stuff.
It's almost like Germany took in many refugees regardless of if they were employable in Germany for humanitarian reasons?
The article talks about Germany not being good at training them because people aren't being employed. Is Germany truly so bad at training refugees, or is it simply difficult to train people to be competitive in the German job market when you're coming without knowing German or having local connections or the means to start your own business?
Easy to complain the Germans aren't doing well enough. Hard to do a better job.
The article talks about Germany not being good at training them because people aren't being employed. Is Germany truly so bad at training refugees, or is it simply difficult to train people to be competitive in the German job market when you're coming without knowing German or having local connections or the means to start your own business?
Easy to complain the Germans aren't doing well enough. Hard to do a better job.
The article is about refugees, but the situation’s still bad even for EU citizens: Germany has proven that it can integrate software developers, engineers and some unqualified workers in the job market. But if it magically got the missing workers it’s complaining about it wouldn’t know what to do with them!
I’ve watched over many years a spouse-of-IT-worker phenomenon in my circle of acquaintances where most partners had to requalify (even with EU diplomas), settle for less or become stay at home parents while those partners which were connected to IT inevitably got jobs and were able to get promotions.
This suggests that there’s no easy solution for Germany or the EU even if migration is encouraged (which brings its own set of well-known problems).
I’ve watched over many years a spouse-of-IT-worker phenomenon in my circle of acquaintances where most partners had to requalify (even with EU diplomas), settle for less or become stay at home parents while those partners which were connected to IT inevitably got jobs and were able to get promotions.
This suggests that there’s no easy solution for Germany or the EU even if migration is encouraged (which brings its own set of well-known problems).
This is a common problem in any country, most countries need nurses and doctors but it is really hard to transfer a diploma to a new country (often for valid reasons). Tech is the abnormal beast in that people can just move freely, partly explains why tech workers make so much money
If anything europe has better requalification programs than a lot of other countries. But if you are a doctor/nurse in your home country, there is little incentive to move to europe because the salaries might be better, but not considering cost of living. Doctors especially make bank in poorer countries and can live like kings
If anything europe has better requalification programs than a lot of other countries. But if you are a doctor/nurse in your home country, there is little incentive to move to europe because the salaries might be better, but not considering cost of living. Doctors especially make bank in poorer countries and can live like kings
A friend of mine when I was living out in Berlin was regularly followed and stopped by police, just because of the color of his skin. He said this was mostly due to his neighbors calling the cops on him when he was simply walking down the street to go to work. It's that ingrained into Germans of a certain age, the ultra-susicious racism coupled with an unhealthy call-the-cops mentality.
German "Auslaenderfeindlichkeit" won't help either. I can tell you from experience witnessing it that it takes quite a while/a bit to convince a lot of Germans of someone and if they're unlucky, they will never get the chance to prove that they're qualified, because they get discriminated against simply because of their name or color of their skin is not the right one. German CVs basically require photos and other information that we don't even legally allow in the US/Canada (not that discrimination simply by name isn't happening there either). There are obviously exception where someone "made it". German "Stammtisch" culture will also pick up and amplify any criminal element within migrant or refugee populations and apply it in broad strokes to all of them instead of recognizing that there are obviously criminals among both German natives and migrant populations. That doesn't mean there aren't lots of law abiding ones.
On top of that Germany obviously has the same issues as other countries as well: employers just don't want to hire at the salary levels they'd need to hire at in order to fill certain positions.
Which is not really much different in Canada either. Where else than Canada can you find the highest number of taxi/Uber drivers with a law/medical degree?