Sourcehut will not blacklist the Go module mirror(sourcehut.org)
sourcehut.org
Sourcehut will not blacklist the Go module mirror
https://sourcehut.org/blog/2023-01-09-gomodulemirror/
78 comments
I'd be super curious to see what load GitHub was seeing from this. There's a lot of focus on protecting smaller sites (who presumably have less funding) but the amount of redundant network traffic this generates must be quite large for other sites as well.
I'm also still questioning the need for the proxy in the first place.
I'm also still questioning the need for the proxy in the first place.
I think GitHub is special-cased somehow.
The source for the proxy isn't available, but I'd be surprised if this was the case, based on what the Go team has written about this issue. They made some changes to allow excluding sites from refresh traffic in 2021 in response to this issue, but no mention of throttling or anything else. And if GitHub is special-cased, I don't see why any other site can't be special-cased either.
See, it is possible to make Google do some changes. You just have report the issue, wait a year, get banned, write a blog post, wait another year, and announce a block of their service. Easy.
Didn't google offer to immediately fix the issue for Sourcehut as a quick fix until they got the full fix out, and Drew declined stating Google needs to either fix the problem entirely or be blocked?
There's a clear lack of communication. The engineering process is (was?) opaque. It's not clear the Go team acknowledged there was a problem with the proxy itself and not just upstream sources, it wasn't communicated that a fix was being worked on, it wasn't clear when it was due to get out. From the outside you can just wait and hope. But that's not OK when your server is getting hammered 24/7 and you have to pay the bills.
Only because DeVault complained do we see that things were happening. Information, but still no control.
It's only when DeVault started to actually annoy Google with real visibility that they decided to take responsibility for what they were doing.
There's an interesting analogy to class struggle, where DeVault uses his leveraging power of striking to make the big Kapitalist change their ways and assume responsibility of asking too much to the little hands doing the actual work of hosting.
Only because DeVault complained do we see that things were happening. Information, but still no control.
It's only when DeVault started to actually annoy Google with real visibility that they decided to take responsibility for what they were doing.
There's an interesting analogy to class struggle, where DeVault uses his leveraging power of striking to make the big Kapitalist change their ways and assume responsibility of asking too much to the little hands doing the actual work of hosting.
thats a cop out. If he accepted the quick fix, then Go team could just say "well it works for him, so now we dont need to do the full fix", or maybe they decide to slow play it. It was nearly two years, enough is enough.
I don't agree with that at all. The "real fix" just took time; you can argue it took "too much time", but, well, lots of things do. They were working on a long-term solution, and offering a short-term solution while that's being worked on is reasonable. Certainly better than doing nothing at all.
The main problem is none of this was communicated very well.
The main problem is none of this was communicated very well.
> They were working on a long-term solution
You really think the team worked for two years on a solution while banning the issue reporter and keeping radio silence, and then by pure coincidence got it ready shortly after a complete block of their service was announced?
You really think the team worked for two years on a solution while banning the issue reporter and keeping radio silence, and then by pure coincidence got it ready shortly after a complete block of their service was announced?
Once again: the reporter was banned for reasons that seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue here.
We don't have to go into the details of this if DeVault doesn't want to; it's enough to say that the narrative that Google blocked him to shut him up about the Go Module Proxy seems implausible at this point. I don't see him saying that in the first place! But people here are.
We don't have to go into the details of this if DeVault doesn't want to; it's enough to say that the narrative that Google blocked him to shut him up about the Go Module Proxy seems implausible at this point. I don't see him saying that in the first place! But people here are.
"We don't have have to go into the details of this" is disingenuous. We can't go into this because he was banned in violation of their own policies for a second time. I agree it likely wasn't related to their DDoS machine, given the past history of bickering between these two parties, but we can't know because Go's own processes were bypassed and someone just arbitrarily lowered the boom.
You can carry all the water you want for the Go people, but their handling of this is unprofessional, and it's not the first time they've treated non-Googlers with utter disrespect for no particular gain. This behavior dates back at least as far as issue #9 in their original bug tracker[1], when the most they could muster for their part was the "Unfortunate" bug label, presumably as in "it's unfortunate for you that we're going to do whatever the hell we want."
Go's biggest problem isn't generics, or modules, or the infrastructure, or any other technical issue; it's that the creators are the worst sort of ivory-tower academics who have never had to cooprate with anyone outside their friend circle. They get away with it because they ensconce themselves as a club in organizations who can afford to pay people to work in DevRel vacuums, and I'm sure they consider themselves very successful, but Go is easily the most toxically-run language project since the BFDL days of glibc.
I have it easy, since I have the autonomy to decide never to get involved with these people, but not everyone has that privilege, and you're not doing the situation any favors by torchbearing for jerks.
https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9
You can carry all the water you want for the Go people, but their handling of this is unprofessional, and it's not the first time they've treated non-Googlers with utter disrespect for no particular gain. This behavior dates back at least as far as issue #9 in their original bug tracker[1], when the most they could muster for their part was the "Unfortunate" bug label, presumably as in "it's unfortunate for you that we're going to do whatever the hell we want."
Go's biggest problem isn't generics, or modules, or the infrastructure, or any other technical issue; it's that the creators are the worst sort of ivory-tower academics who have never had to cooprate with anyone outside their friend circle. They get away with it because they ensconce themselves as a club in organizations who can afford to pay people to work in DevRel vacuums, and I'm sure they consider themselves very successful, but Go is easily the most toxically-run language project since the BFDL days of glibc.
I have it easy, since I have the autonomy to decide never to get involved with these people, but not everyone has that privilege, and you're not doing the situation any favors by torchbearing for jerks.
https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9
My reading of this is: "I agree with what you said but I'm still not happy with how they manage things and also they shouldn't call their language Go".
Ok, I guess I can simplify my message:
It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker, but said ban is consistent with the Go maintainers' shit behavior.
I'm sorry I distracted you from the point with all the examples and root-cause analyses.
It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker, but said ban is consistent with the Go maintainers' shit behavior.
I'm sorry I distracted you from the point with all the examples and root-cause analyses.
> It is not helping anything for you to pretend you know why Drew was banned from the issue tracker
This is extremely funny because a) it is true that we don't know why, there are several public and probably more private reasons he could have been banned! take your pick! and yet b) everyone involved agrees it was not due to this ticket, yet discussion of this ticket is always where it gets trotted out.
This is extremely funny because a) it is true that we don't know why, there are several public and probably more private reasons he could have been banned! take your pick! and yet b) everyone involved agrees it was not due to this ticket, yet discussion of this ticket is always where it gets trotted out.
Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!" ?
If I looked hard enough, I could find an obscure language named Rust that was invented before Mozilla's Rust. Same for Dart, Swift, etc
If I looked hard enough, I could find an obscure language named Rust that was invented before Mozilla's Rust. Same for Dart, Swift, etc
Hm. As stated like this, it is just an assumption, that you could. I am not convinced.
> Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!"?
If we translate this to other areas of life, then this becomes quite problematic. Next time some bigger group of people can name themselves like a smaller group of people and say "Who cares?". Well, the minority cares.
But it is indeed a typical move of a tech giant to appropriate names for their own products, with or without intention to create associations in people's heads.
On one hand one must draw the line somewhere, where one deems things too insignificant to veto a naming, but on the other hand it is never nice to take another ones name and overshadow it. Aside from that, "Go" really is a silly name, as shown when people write "golang" all the time, to avoid confusion. "Go" is difficult to search for. One would have thought, that a company like Google knows that kinda stuff, but apparently not.
> Who cares that some unknown language was called "Go!"?
If we translate this to other areas of life, then this becomes quite problematic. Next time some bigger group of people can name themselves like a smaller group of people and say "Who cares?". Well, the minority cares.
But it is indeed a typical move of a tech giant to appropriate names for their own products, with or without intention to create associations in people's heads.
On one hand one must draw the line somewhere, where one deems things too insignificant to veto a naming, but on the other hand it is never nice to take another ones name and overshadow it. Aside from that, "Go" really is a silly name, as shown when people write "golang" all the time, to avoid confusion. "Go" is difficult to search for. One would have thought, that a company like Google knows that kinda stuff, but apparently not.
Do you believe they faked the commit times on https://github.com/golang/go/issues/53644 , which added the behavior required for the fix six months before the sr.ht announcement?
They had already implemented a significant part of the solution before the block was announced, as explained by rsc in the top comment on the previous thread a few weeks ago.
Again, arguably this took too long. They certainly didn't communicate well. But that they were already working on it before the block announcement can be easily demonstrated.
Again, arguably this took too long. They certainly didn't communicate well. But that they were already working on it before the block announcement can be easily demonstrated.
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Do you recall how long it took for Go to get generics?
Listen, one mistake every 10 years ain't so bad.
Good one! Very funny!
/me remembers years of being gaslit by Gophers, of all stripes, for asserting that, no, unlike the cult of personality around Go, i did actually know what i was talking about when I said GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use (even better, it was plainly obvious even with pre-1.0 kubernetes). Just cringey.
For all the handwavey whinging about Rust, Gophers have treated me far more poorly over things that have been retconned and forgotten years later.
/me remembers years of being gaslit by Gophers, of all stripes, for asserting that, no, unlike the cult of personality around Go, i did actually know what i was talking about when I said GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use (even better, it was plainly obvious even with pre-1.0 kubernetes). Just cringey.
For all the handwavey whinging about Rust, Gophers have treated me far more poorly over things that have been retconned and forgotten years later.
> GOPATH was a nightmare in real world use … all the handwavey
I personally find people saying something is a garbage dump, nightmare and fire whatever Rather than explain the issue to be credibility reducing phrases
Don’t recall what gopath was sold as a fix for
I personally find people saying something is a garbage dump, nightmare and fire whatever Rather than explain the issue to be credibility reducing phrases
Don’t recall what gopath was sold as a fix for
LOL, I want to frame this comment. Abso-fucking-lutely stunning.
Thanks for ironically proving my point and demonstrating just how ignorant the criticism was.
I can't get my head around this. I describe a feature, that has long since been ret-conned from the community because it became such a thorn in everyone's side.
And you're just like "nah it probably wasn't that bad even though it was excised and is no longer talked about *and I can't even remember what it was for*" (despite being the exclusive only way to do local dep management). Stun-ning.
What is was "sold as a fix for"? Man, the hubris of people commenting on things literally completely ignorantly.
LOL, really didn't think I'd be gaslit about GOPATH in 2023. Brilliant, keep it up Gophers!
Thanks for ironically proving my point and demonstrating just how ignorant the criticism was.
I can't get my head around this. I describe a feature, that has long since been ret-conned from the community because it became such a thorn in everyone's side.
And you're just like "nah it probably wasn't that bad even though it was excised and is no longer talked about *and I can't even remember what it was for*" (despite being the exclusive only way to do local dep management). Stun-ning.
What is was "sold as a fix for"? Man, the hubris of people commenting on things literally completely ignorantly.
LOL, really didn't think I'd be gaslit about GOPATH in 2023. Brilliant, keep it up Gophers!
My comment is not related to go, it’s about comments that use negative metaphors or hyperbole when criticizing something without making clear the issue.
Everyone hates, nightmares, dumpster fire, brain dead, useless, everyone knows, ignorant.Are examples.
Say someone writes “Working on Mac/Linux/windows is a nightmare”, ok … what does that convey ?
Everyone hates, nightmares, dumpster fire, brain dead, useless, everyone knows, ignorant.Are examples.
Say someone writes “Working on Mac/Linux/windows is a nightmare”, ok … what does that convey ?
Im not sure, when I see buzzwords like gaslighting or accusations of a racial or political nature I just stop interacting.
Ah yes, because teens on tiktok over use a word, you've decided every usage of the word is wrong and a sign to stop listening. And you seem to think disclosing that to people ... doesn't reflect poorly on you?
Feel free to google the word, then the behavior I described, then look at the peer comment where someone literally goes "idk what that long-since killed-off-thing was but you must be exaggerating".
Feel free to google the word, then the behavior I described, then look at the peer comment where someone literally goes "idk what that long-since killed-off-thing was but you must be exaggerating".
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People explaining how easy it was to start a go project always had me scratching my head. What should the project layout be like? What the fuck is GOPATH and why do I care? Is GOHOME a thing? modules? Which one of these tutorials actually works? It's probably way better now but... yeah maybe Go tooling wasn't quite as solid as the messaging indicated.
So... entirely typical Go fashion. Your own comment implies that Drew would have no way of knowing if theyd follow through and frankly its laughable that Google has enkugh good will with anyone for anyone to make any positive assumptions at any step along the way.
Is that actually true? Does the timeline of the change the Go team is rolling out corroborate the claim?
did you read the update to the article, as it answers that question
Can you be more specific? Is it updated in multiple places?
Russ commented in the original discussion that there was planned work to address Drew's issue (and more). From the update in this article, it appears that Drew is referring to that work. There is no indication in what I have read that the timeline for it has changed due to this drama.
Don't forget the all important Hacker News front page step.
It does not appear to be the case that he was banned for anything about this issue.
Nobody knows exactly why he was banned (except for the people banning him), because the ban was not communicated to him or anyone else (at least according to his words). However, he did get banned after putting the issue into the golang issue tracker, so there is at least a temporal correlation.
Why call it temporal correlation when it neither denies nor establish causation? what can establish causation in this case? Unless one attempt to go back in time, recognize he is not banned yet he has put an issue in the tracker. Source hut requests were denied as would be expected from a corporate machine. Now the machine realized it should do damage control. we can repeat this test and check for causation where corporations do damage control without the need for time travel.
This was discussed in detail on the last DeVault thread. I don't think he wants it recapitulated here.
And you have to be large enough or known enough in the first place that Google cares whether or not you block their service. ;)
taviso(1)
> The Go team has decided that the automatic refresh behavior is their responsibility, not the responsibility of other operators
I am stunned it took so much kerfuffle to get there. Why is it not the default behavior ?
I am stunned it took so much kerfuffle to get there. Why is it not the default behavior ?
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2h(4)
Sourcehut will blacklist the Go module mirror - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310674 - Jan 2023 (337 comments)