Where do stolen bikes go?(news.mit.edu)
news.mit.edu
Where do stolen bikes go?
https://news.mit.edu/2023/where-do-stolen-bikes-go-0215
306 comments
VanMoof is also responsible for the clever hack of disguising bicycle packaging as television packaging for shipment, as US carriers are much more careful with TV boxes than bicycle boxes:
https://www.vanmoof.com/blog/en/tv-bike-box
https://www.vanmoof.com/blog/en/tv-bike-box
I did not hear about VanMoof earlier but my buddy called police (Amsterdam area of course) once when he found his bike and he wanted to be good citizen so he did not want to just steal it back from some backyard.
Well police helped him recover the bike without arresting anyone and told him next time he should just steal it back and don't bother them.
Well police helped him recover the bike without arresting anyone and told him next time he should just steal it back and don't bother them.
Unfortunately that is one of the best outcomes you can expect. At least he got his bicycle back.
During COVID there were plenty of officers available to fine normal people who were sitting too close on a bench. But to deal with real criminals who talk back is too much of a hassle.
During COVID there were plenty of officers available to fine normal people who were sitting too close on a bench. But to deal with real criminals who talk back is too much of a hassle.
How is taking your own property back being a bad citizen?
It becomes complicated if the new owner has legitimately bought the bike in a second hand store.
It's not that complicated, legally speaking. The rightful owner gets to get their stuff back, and the new "owner" has a claim against the purveyor of stolen goods for the purchase price.
At least in Austria that's not how it works.
The new "owner" will keep the bike as he has bought it in good faith. The shop will claim that it cannot check every used bike. The rightful owner could try to get money from the person who stole it (if found), but they most likely don't have any money.
It's the perfect crime and the reason why we cannot have nice bikes. People are literally sleeping with their expensive bikes in a room.
The new "owner" will keep the bike as he has bought it in good faith. The shop will claim that it cannot check every used bike. The rightful owner could try to get money from the person who stole it (if found), but they most likely don't have any money.
It's the perfect crime and the reason why we cannot have nice bikes. People are literally sleeping with their expensive bikes in a room.
I can't believe the law works like that. Are you telling me that if I buy a yacht in Austria "in good faith" from someone who doesn't own it, I can just sail away on the yacht, original owner be damned?
There's same law in Switzerland.
However as soon as you as the buyer feel something is off, you aren't protected anymore because only good faith buyers are protected. For example if you go to the black market or something seems to be extremely cheap you definitively aren't protected anymore.
It's a conflict of interests. This law is trying to do a tradeoff. Imagine you went to Walmart and bought a bike and everything seemed fine but it turned out that an employee stole the bike and sold it to you in the name of Walmart. In this case you can keep the bike.
However as soon as you as the buyer feel something is off, you aren't protected anymore because only good faith buyers are protected. For example if you go to the black market or something seems to be extremely cheap you definitively aren't protected anymore.
It's a conflict of interests. This law is trying to do a tradeoff. Imagine you went to Walmart and bought a bike and everything seemed fine but it turned out that an employee stole the bike and sold it to you in the name of Walmart. In this case you can keep the bike.
Not a lot of yachts in Austria
In the Netherlands second hand bicycle stores have to keep records where their bikes come from. A stolen bike shouldn’t end up in a legitimate shop.
Surely we can trust hundreds and hundreds of small business owners to be very strict about law enforcement when it pushes against their financial interests, in a country with more bikes then people.
No stolen bikes end up in shops, no siree. Yeah right.
No stolen bikes end up in shops, no siree. Yeah right.
We’re living in an era where people regularly use tracking devices to retrieve their stolen bicycles. If they turn up in a store the owner should run into trouble even without regular checks.
Of course this depends on the police not being lazy which clearly is a big ask but if that is too much any law is pointless.
Of course this depends on the police not being lazy which clearly is a big ask but if that is too much any law is pointless.
[deleted]
It seems it depends on the jurisdiction. In the US you can’t launder title for stolen goods like this. If you bought a stolen bike, well it sucks to be you. The bike goes back to the rightful owner.
Citizens are, generally, not supposed (nor expected to) to take justice into their own hands.
In some countries it might be illegal to disturb someone's possession of something, as a general rule, regardless of legitimate ownership.
For example, in Sweden, if it's been more than 24 hours, it's illegal to do it on your own.
For example, in Sweden, if it's been more than 24 hours, it's illegal to do it on your own.
I guess that's parts and parcel for a country that just stopped reporting crime stats for certain crimes a while ago.
Wow this is crazy to me.
I think he intended to be a good citizen by leading the police to some bike thieves.
Don’t disturb cops while they drink coffee. Poor guys. /s
> Often they recover the bike from a yard / homeless camp / shop with 100s of other non-VanMoof bikes they leave behind. It would be so easy to crack down on organised bike theft. The financial, social, and environmental costs of securing bikes and recovering from a theft is huge.
The problem is that Dutch police are a narco-state dysfunctional hellhole. They don't do anything that goes after organized crime... they even cut the team dealing with the gangs behind ATM explosions in Germany [1].
[1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/geldautomaten-sprengung...
The problem is that Dutch police are a narco-state dysfunctional hellhole. They don't do anything that goes after organized crime... they even cut the team dealing with the gangs behind ATM explosions in Germany [1].
[1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/geldautomaten-sprengung...
> basically steal it back
This brings up an interesting legal question.
Is it illegal to steal back your own property? Even if you trespass onto private property to do so, the person would have to get the Police involved to do anything about that, at which time you can say "Sure, I'll take the trespassing charge, and while we're here I'm leaving with all of my property".
This brings up an interesting legal question.
Is it illegal to steal back your own property? Even if you trespass onto private property to do so, the person would have to get the Police involved to do anything about that, at which time you can say "Sure, I'll take the trespassing charge, and while we're here I'm leaving with all of my property".
Not a lawyer, but talked about this with one once and this is what I remember. By definition you can't steal something that belongs to you. The fact that someone else stole it doesn't make it stop being yours. However it might still be illegal to take it back if doing so involves breaking other laws, like breaking and entering, assault, or what have you. It might not be crazy to risk a trespass, since those generally aren't enforced even when they should be. On the other hand in the USA entering someone's home uninvited can give them legal grounds to use deadly force on a presumption of self-defense, even if your bike is in their back yard. So not only would that be illegal, it could be very dangerous. I'd bet dollars to donuts that anyone inclined to give advice on the subject would say eat the loss and move on.
Strangely there are jurisdictions where if your stuff is in a pawn shop and the pawnbroker claims he didn't know it was stolen, he might have the legal right to recoup what he paid for it from you!
Strangely there are jurisdictions where if your stuff is in a pawn shop and the pawnbroker claims he didn't know it was stolen, he might have the legal right to recoup what he paid for it from you!
So given the privacy horror that is cell phone location data selling if you know someone's home address and name you could probably arrange to pick up the bike where they normally tie it up.
>bet dollars to donuts
Donuts are now over $14/dozen each where I live. Another casualty of inflation I guess.
Donuts are now over $14/dozen each where I live. Another casualty of inflation I guess.
I guess it depends on local law, but I guess that trespassing is trespassing, and the thief can sue, and it probably already happened.
It is a little different but on one occasion, in France, some guy sold a computer online, sent it, and never got paid. Pissed off, he broke in the crook house and took back his computer (plus a few other things, not smart...), they both sued each other, the crook ended up in prison for 2 months, and the one who broke into his house had 4 months suspended sentence. But even if he just took back his computer, he would still be guilty, but the judge would most likely have handed out a lighter sentence.
It is a little different but on one occasion, in France, some guy sold a computer online, sent it, and never got paid. Pissed off, he broke in the crook house and took back his computer (plus a few other things, not smart...), they both sued each other, the crook ended up in prison for 2 months, and the one who broke into his house had 4 months suspended sentence. But even if he just took back his computer, he would still be guilty, but the judge would most likely have handed out a lighter sentence.
With the stolen bike, if the vanmoofs are stealthy enough to no get caught in the act, it might go pretty fine as I assume the thieves won't file police reports. Now if they already sold it, things might get hairy... in my place when your car gets stolen and you file a report you need to provide all kind of documents which a stolen bike owner won't possibly have. So I guess approaching the same way for theft of expensive gear (need to provide ownership proof) could curb it a little. And yes, I know also cars get stolen.
IANAL but I don't think you can "steal" your own property.
You might need to do something else though - e.g. trespass or cut someone else's lock etc. You are on my shaky ground then I think.
You might need to do something else though - e.g. trespass or cut someone else's lock etc. You are on my shaky ground then I think.
You just call the police, say it is your bike, they verify the serial number (you need to provide some proof, or register the theft prior). Then, if everything is in order, police just cut the lock.
I wonder what country this actually works in?
Our police had a policy of not attending house burglaries with odd street numbers to cut their required response rate in half. I can't imagine them even answering the phone over a bike.
The only reason i would call the police is to get a reference number for an insurance claim.
Our police had a policy of not attending house burglaries with odd street numbers to cut their required response rate in half. I can't imagine them even answering the phone over a bike.
The only reason i would call the police is to get a reference number for an insurance claim.
At least for a short while, and I do not understand why, bicycle theft was somehow linked to terrorism by London's police. See [1] for example.
I had a bicycle stolen, and after filing the report the police phoned me to ask for more details on the lock I'd used.
I later found it on Gumtree, with a description ending something like "Call Peter on 07123456789, meet at Forest Heath Station". Putting the mobile phone number into Gumtree's search brought up about 50 bicycles, "Call John" "Call Dave" etc. I emailed this to the police, and had another phone call thanking me for my incredible investigation skill.
They said they would go to find Peter/John/Dave, but would only contact me again if they found my bike, which they did not.
I'm very suspicious of accounts like [2] "Mr T" with "Cash only" and a huge selection of bicycles.
[1] https://www.bikeregister.com/news/putting-a-value-on-protect...
[2] https://www.gumtree.com/profile/accounts/48e9b2ff00d3f04e27f... or similarly https://www.gumtree.com/profile/accounts/b8b756750f2960d115b...
I had a bicycle stolen, and after filing the report the police phoned me to ask for more details on the lock I'd used.
I later found it on Gumtree, with a description ending something like "Call Peter on 07123456789, meet at Forest Heath Station". Putting the mobile phone number into Gumtree's search brought up about 50 bicycles, "Call John" "Call Dave" etc. I emailed this to the police, and had another phone call thanking me for my incredible investigation skill.
They said they would go to find Peter/John/Dave, but would only contact me again if they found my bike, which they did not.
I'm very suspicious of accounts like [2] "Mr T" with "Cash only" and a huge selection of bicycles.
[1] https://www.bikeregister.com/news/putting-a-value-on-protect...
[2] https://www.gumtree.com/profile/accounts/48e9b2ff00d3f04e27f... or similarly https://www.gumtree.com/profile/accounts/b8b756750f2960d115b...
That first Gumtree link is absolutely insane. It looks like a full time job for multiple people.
> At least for a short while, and I do not understand why, bicycle theft was somehow linked to terrorism by London's police.
Counter-Terrorism Patrol Unit.
IME speculation: for security-adjacent personnel, recovery efforts (equipment, fraud, etc.) are a great way to quantify the work you do when you don't otherwise generate revenue. You can't take credit for disrupting events that didn't happen [because you intervened], but nobody can argue with you recovering or clawing back $x in lost/stolen assets.
They were probably tasked with patrolling for misplaced explosives and other drama, but since incident count is low, they were given supplementary tasks (like tagging bikes they come across on patrol) to justify their salary and foster positive PR.
Counter-Terrorism Patrol Unit.
IME speculation: for security-adjacent personnel, recovery efforts (equipment, fraud, etc.) are a great way to quantify the work you do when you don't otherwise generate revenue. You can't take credit for disrupting events that didn't happen [because you intervened], but nobody can argue with you recovering or clawing back $x in lost/stolen assets.
They were probably tasked with patrolling for misplaced explosives and other drama, but since incident count is low, they were given supplementary tasks (like tagging bikes they come across on patrol) to justify their salary and foster positive PR.
Japan. All bikes must be registered with the local government. Bikes are one of the things police are vigilant about bikes. Police routinely pull over cyclists, especially if you’re a foreigner, to confirm you are the owner of the bike.
Driving a bicycle while intoxicated is also treated just like driving a car.
Electric bikes going 25km an hour or faster, or have larger than a 250watt battery needs to be registered as a motor vehicle. You’ll need a driver’s license, insurance, etc.
Driving a bicycle while intoxicated is also treated just like driving a car.
Electric bikes going 25km an hour or faster, or have larger than a 250watt battery needs to be registered as a motor vehicle. You’ll need a driver’s license, insurance, etc.
I might as well start a club doing that (or a company if I had the skills). Bike theft is such a sad load on bikers mind.. (even it can be cool to carry a 3kg chain to secure it.. not always)
Watch out - you know heavy chain is also worth money on junkyard so they are going to steal that as well.
True but it requires heavy tooling and more time. Most robbers want cheap shots.
this is patently not true. maybe titanium is gummy enough to give one trouble? but any steel that isn't brittle enough to shatter when you look at it is going to be trivial to cut with an abrasive disk and a battery powered grinder. if the chain is 1/2" instead of 1/4", it will take an extra minute maybe.
And, frankly, who’s going to stop a guy with an angle grinder from stealing a bike that isn’t theirs?
I won't physically stop the person, but I will say something to them and take a photo of them in the act. I don't have a way of knowing if you're doing this legitimately (I've had to cut a lock due to a lost key), so I'm not going to threaten them or call the cops.
I don't think taking a photo will have any actionable follow-up—I have no way of following up to see if someone reports to see anyone has reported a stolen bike in the area—but might make a thief decide to go find a different target, while not being a major issue if you're the actual owner.
As a healthy, medium-large guy who's okay at de-escalation, I live in the assumption that no one will try to hurt me for interfering. I'll probably learn better one day.
I don't think taking a photo will have any actionable follow-up—I have no way of following up to see if someone reports to see anyone has reported a stolen bike in the area—but might make a thief decide to go find a different target, while not being a major issue if you're the actual owner.
As a healthy, medium-large guy who's okay at de-escalation, I live in the assumption that no one will try to hurt me for interfering. I'll probably learn better one day.
Clearly he is determined to his objetive...
There are now d-locks that are angle grinder resistant. The reviews I've read suggest they need two cuts to open and each cut uses a full angle grinder disc.
As ever, impossible to stop a determined thief, but starting to get "good enough".
As ever, impossible to stop a determined thief, but starting to get "good enough".
Do you have some example links on those locks? Might be interesting to check...
This is one option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMg6zVdYI0g really impressive, I didn't know it's a thing
I understand the power of angle grinders (so much that I'm still hesitant to buy one), but I object to a battery-powered angle grinder _not_ being "more tools". It has to be at least one level above what the Average Bike Thief carries around, hasn't it? They are certainly not stealthy.
Of course, it's quite possible that the Average Bike Thief in Amsterdam is a well-organized criminal-for-hire kind of person, doing surgical strikes against the most valuable bikes and so on (as is often the case with car theft, afaik). Then perhaps an angle grinder is just standard Day 1 equipment.
Of course, it's quite possible that the Average Bike Thief in Amsterdam is a well-organized criminal-for-hire kind of person, doing surgical strikes against the most valuable bikes and so on (as is often the case with car theft, afaik). Then perhaps an angle grinder is just standard Day 1 equipment.
yup. even boron steel cuts pretty quickly
My VanMoof was recently stolen and although they came through with a replacement, they did not appear to try to track down the bike even though the tracker placed in a fairly precise location in Berlin.
I am sure the bike hunters exist but it wouldn’t surprise me if much of their work is PR.
I am sure the bike hunters exist but it wouldn’t surprise me if much of their work is PR.
For everyone else wanting to see the bike hunt videos: https://www.youtube.com/@vanmoof/search?query=bike%20hunt
Link to the playlist Bike Hunters: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWwEynoexJikPNEl0P42A...
The videos are interesting. Will VanMoof go anywhere in Europe for you then to recover these then? I see Strasbourg and Stockholm in addition to the Netherlands. Any insight into how the pricing works for recovery?
From [1] it looks like
* You pay $400 for 3 years of coverage. * Must have the bike locked and file a police report. * They can choose whether or not to attempt recovery. * If they choose not to, or fail to recover the bike, they'll replace it. * Up to 3 replacements are covered in the 3 years.
So it's really just theft insurance but they can attempt to recover low-hanging fruit. In wonder what their attempted recovery rate is.
[1] https://www.vanmoof.com/en-US/peace-of-mind
* You pay $400 for 3 years of coverage. * Must have the bike locked and file a police report. * They can choose whether or not to attempt recovery. * If they choose not to, or fail to recover the bike, they'll replace it. * Up to 3 replacements are covered in the 3 years.
So it's really just theft insurance but they can attempt to recover low-hanging fruit. In wonder what their attempted recovery rate is.
[1] https://www.vanmoof.com/en-US/peace-of-mind
Not VanMoof, but I worked in the project team doing the theft recovery platform for Gazelle. We managed to recover literally almost every bike, and the recovery rate was 140% because we often found more than just 1 bike reported stolen.
It really worked unexpectedly well, I've heard a lot of skepticism and I don't know how things are at VanMoof but if the will is there it really works
It really worked unexpectedly well, I've heard a lot of skepticism and I don't know how things are at VanMoof but if the will is there it really works
Thanks. The bikes are beautiful which is obviously a double edge sword as it makes them that much more desirable to thieves. It looks like the bikes start at $2500 so $133 a year for insurance isn't terrible. The fact that they offer this just makes me think wow this a forward thinking company, which is also evident in their bikes.
I’m pretty sure they can also remotely disable the electronics.
I presume the researchers would have checked these 100 second-hand bikes for VanMoof trackers before equipping their own trackers?
Ah to clarify: VanMoof make (very expensive) e-bikes with integrated GPS that's used mostly for "smart bike" features. I doubt the researchers could afford a used VanMoof for their study, and the company only tracks their own bikes.
I'd guess part of their motivation is to dissuade theft and resale of their bikes, which are quite distinctive. Though that might be attributing too much rationality to a bike thief.
I'd guess part of their motivation is to dissuade theft and resale of their bikes, which are quite distinctive. Though that might be attributing too much rationality to a bike thief.
Vanmoof is a shit company with shit bikes and even more shit customer service. Purely aesthetics and marketing. Stay away.
Also Vanmoof and the BMW of the bicycle world, most people who ride them, do it in a super annoying way.
Your opinion being based on...?
This brand is known for bikes that break very quickly. The bikes are good, but don’t last. They are very expensive and the replacement parts are too.
The VanMoof or Tweakers forums are filled with users talking about the repairs the did this week to their bike, or that they send their bike back since it broke the week they bought it.
The VanMoof or Tweakers forums are filled with users talking about the repairs the did this week to their bike, or that they send their bike back since it broke the week they bought it.
Without knowing anything about VanMoof, I'm always (more than I'd ideally like) doing some repairs on whichever bike I'm generally riding. Same for our car, which barely gets driven at all. It seems mechanical stuff needs repairing. Maybe VanMoof riders talk about it more in the forum. Most companies don't offer that...?
It’s definitely possible that there is a bias; users that have perfectly working VanMoofs don’t complain on the forums and just ride their bikes.
Once I lost a bike that was parked right outside my house. Couple of days later I saw a guy ride around on my bike! I sprinted over and somewhat aggressively yelled "you're on my bike, buddy!"
He got off, very politely handed me back my bike, and thanked me for letting him borrow it.
Almost made me feel like I was the bad guy in the situation. Anyway I guess in some cases, a stolen bike doesn't go far at all.
He got off, very politely handed me back my bike, and thanked me for letting him borrow it.
Almost made me feel like I was the bad guy in the situation. Anyway I guess in some cases, a stolen bike doesn't go far at all.
I had a ratty bike in college that I never bothered to lock to the bike racks, because I had bought it very cheaply and I had insufficient money to repair it properly. Almost everything that could be broken while still remaining technically rideable, was broken.
One day - gone! I breathed a sigh of relief and went about my day. Two years pass. I'm walking to class one day on the same campus and I see a very similar looking bike on the rack. I walked up to inspect it and it was definitely the same bicycle, but entirely fixed up! All new components, nice tires, the works, with a nice lock.
I'll never know what happened in the interim but it was such a warm fuzzy feeling to think someone had cared for it and elevated it to a new level, even if it was technically the product of theft. In a ship of Theseus kind of way it wasn't even truly my bike anymore.
The whole situation has stuck in my brain a lot better than the classes I was attending....
One day - gone! I breathed a sigh of relief and went about my day. Two years pass. I'm walking to class one day on the same campus and I see a very similar looking bike on the rack. I walked up to inspect it and it was definitely the same bicycle, but entirely fixed up! All new components, nice tires, the works, with a nice lock.
I'll never know what happened in the interim but it was such a warm fuzzy feeling to think someone had cared for it and elevated it to a new level, even if it was technically the product of theft. In a ship of Theseus kind of way it wasn't even truly my bike anymore.
The whole situation has stuck in my brain a lot better than the classes I was attending....
At my old house, a renter across the street was part of a bike theft ring. Stolen bikes would come in and out, sometimes with different pieces.
I imagine your bike was stolen by someone, maybe fixed up, maybe sold as-is for cheap and then fixed up by the new possesor, who may not have known it was stolen, just cheap.
I imagine your bike was stolen by someone, maybe fixed up, maybe sold as-is for cheap and then fixed up by the new possesor, who may not have known it was stolen, just cheap.
> In a ship of Theseus kind of way it wasn't even truly my bike anymore.
Behold, the bicycle of Theseus. If you stole it back could you say "arguably, this isn't theft!"? But I guess a judge would say you stole the parts of the bike that the new owner fitted.
Behold, the bicycle of Theseus. If you stole it back could you say "arguably, this isn't theft!"? But I guess a judge would say you stole the parts of the bike that the new owner fitted.
This reminds me of my buddy’s RuneScape account that got hacked. Over five years later he managed to recover the account, and many of his skills has been botted (very against the rules) to max level, as well as being hugely wealthy.
That account recovery created some interesting ethical questions.
That account recovery created some interesting ethical questions.
I guess if the parts were fitted and bolted to the bike you could argue that they were "aggresively gifted".
If it was left unlocked and in poor condition it’s possible someone thought it had simply been abandoned and took it to fix up themselves.
I was almost expecting this to end with "...I was so happy that day as I rode my now vastly improved bike home."
> Almost made me feel like I was the bad guy in the situation.
Many people who choose to live outside square-lawed society rely on people remaining docile and sticking to principle in order to prey on them, or at least to live a lifestyle where they don't have to collaborate with larger society to reap its rewards. It took me years to un-program "assume good intent and empathy" with people I didn't know that were trying to take advantage of me.
I simply can't stand thieves. I wish that we had really great public services and transportation--not only would this reduce a huge amount of current theft, it would make actual theft obviously inexcusable.
Many people who choose to live outside square-lawed society rely on people remaining docile and sticking to principle in order to prey on them, or at least to live a lifestyle where they don't have to collaborate with larger society to reap its rewards. It took me years to un-program "assume good intent and empathy" with people I didn't know that were trying to take advantage of me.
I simply can't stand thieves. I wish that we had really great public services and transportation--not only would this reduce a huge amount of current theft, it would make actual theft obviously inexcusable.
Yeah, every homeless person I have ever talked to has had some bullshit story. Its almost as if the impulse to spew bullshit is the primary cause of homelessness. Or some inevitable consequence of most mental health problems. Its so reliable that it makes me question the idea that housing costs are the primary cause of homelessness, but perhaps that just pushes more people on the mental margins over the edge.
Humans are narrative creatures. We literally think in stories, so it's not surprising to me that homeless people have a sad story that explains their homelessness.
We all tell ourselves stories (whether true or not) to process our actions and their consequences. For people who have been victimized, they sometimes become a slave to the story they tell themselves which can lead to learned helplessness.
We all tell ourselves stories (whether true or not) to process our actions and their consequences. For people who have been victimized, they sometimes become a slave to the story they tell themselves which can lead to learned helplessness.
This is a pretty mean-spirited comment, I don't even know where to start. Homeless people are just people like you and me. If you'd been born in their shoes, with their inherited genetic make-up, raised by their parents, surrounded by their friends, living their life experiences etc you'd very possibly be homeless too and 'spewing bullshit' as you put it
Sure, and if I'd been born with Ted Bundy's genetic makeup and lived his life, I'd be Ted Bundy. This isn't the slam dunk you seem to think it is.
I don't know that I agree that "the primary cause of homelessness is the tendency to spew bullshit", I but I definitely don't agree with the implication of the assertion "homeless people are just people like you and me". It's true that they're homo sapiens, but this cuts both ways--Donald Trump is just a person like you or me, so is Vladimir Putin, and yet I don't necessarily feel sympathy for either. At some point it behooves us to order ourselves around a set of behaviors or beliefs, and actually begin to make value judgements on what people do, or how they choose to behave.
(This includes mental illness and addiction--even if we mentally those people as being in the grip of something beyond themselves, if a peaceful, non-grifting society is desired someone needs to make choices about how to restrict their freedom.)
(This includes mental illness and addiction--even if we mentally those people as being in the grip of something beyond themselves, if a peaceful, non-grifting society is desired someone needs to make choices about how to restrict their freedom.)
My hunch is that talking about your problem can be easier than dealing with it. And people, even capable working homeowners develop a serious expertise in analysing what they should but don't do. I often notice myself doing it.
My guess is that it is safer to just return stolen bikes if caught by the owner and avoid police interest.
I retrieved a bike that had been stolen while poorly-locked at a university. It was my brother's bike, very recognizable to me as I had done a bunch of work on it. The guy with the bike was nice, apologetic, and explained that he picked it out of the bushes. I asked him to friend my brother on facebook, watched him send the request... and let him ride off with it as I had my own bike to deal with. The next day, my brother got his bike back!
Helps to ride a $100 bike. If somebody ends up with it, they won't be too attached.
Helps to ride a $100 bike. If somebody ends up with it, they won't be too attached.
One of my relatives bikes was stolen and then they noticed it was literally next door.
Criminals are criminals often because they can't obtain the higher return than comes from having a) impulse control and b) greater IQ than a toaster.
Criminals are criminals often because they can't obtain the higher return than comes from having a) impulse control and b) greater IQ than a toaster.
Is it unethical to buy a "cheap" replacement bicycle if your previous one was stolen?
No? What are you trying to get at? I assume there's something you have on your mind that I'm missing to understand why there would be any type of moral quandary here.
I take cheap to mean stolen in this case.
[deleted]
> "buddy"
> politely handed me back my bike
Canada?
> politely handed me back my bike
Canada?
I had a £2,000 electric bike stolen in Oxford. No worries - it had a GPS tracker, and I could see it heading to Birmingham up the M40. Also, my neighbour had CCTV footage. You couldn't make out the faces or number-plate, but you could see it was a black Mercedes. It was taken at about 3AM.
So they had "liberated" the bike (it was locked up), and immediately headed out of town. I'm sure it was scouted, then they came back in the small hours to steal it. I'm convinced that it was an organized operation, and the bike might have been stolen to order.
When it stopped moving, I could see it was located in the back of a house in a Birmingham suburb. So I rang the Oxford police.
They weren't interested - they told me to contact West Midlands police. So I rang them. No, they were not going to investigate: "Don't you realize how many Porsches are stolen in this city every day?" Also, they said they can't just walk in and have a look around (I guess they need a warrant, which is fair enough; but then why not get a warrant?)
Like, I knew the address it was located at; so maybe the WM police would provide an officer to protect me, when I head up to Brum to collect the machine? No way.
So I gave up. My replacement has no GPS tracker.
So my experience seems to differ from the Amsterdam narrative. I had heard that most stolen bikes end up in Birmingham. My anecdote appears to confirm that bikes stolen in Oxford don't stay in Oxford.
So they had "liberated" the bike (it was locked up), and immediately headed out of town. I'm sure it was scouted, then they came back in the small hours to steal it. I'm convinced that it was an organized operation, and the bike might have been stolen to order.
When it stopped moving, I could see it was located in the back of a house in a Birmingham suburb. So I rang the Oxford police.
They weren't interested - they told me to contact West Midlands police. So I rang them. No, they were not going to investigate: "Don't you realize how many Porsches are stolen in this city every day?" Also, they said they can't just walk in and have a look around (I guess they need a warrant, which is fair enough; but then why not get a warrant?)
Like, I knew the address it was located at; so maybe the WM police would provide an officer to protect me, when I head up to Brum to collect the machine? No way.
So I gave up. My replacement has no GPS tracker.
So my experience seems to differ from the Amsterdam narrative. I had heard that most stolen bikes end up in Birmingham. My anecdote appears to confirm that bikes stolen in Oxford don't stay in Oxford.
> They weren't interested - they told me to contact West Midlands police. So I rang them. No, they were not going to investigate: "Don't you realize how many Porsches are stolen in this city every day?" Also, they said they can't just walk in and have a look around (I guess they need a warrant, which is fair enough; but then why not get a warrant?)
I've seen/heard this numerous times. Cops really don't give a shit about theft unless it's from a business. But I wonder if you could just sue the homeowner for the bike in small claims court. Do you have something like that in your jurisdiction? I mean you can prove they're in possession of your property. Nothing criminal, just have a judge order them to at least compensate you for the bike.
I've seen/heard this numerous times. Cops really don't give a shit about theft unless it's from a business. But I wonder if you could just sue the homeowner for the bike in small claims court. Do you have something like that in your jurisdiction? I mean you can prove they're in possession of your property. Nothing criminal, just have a judge order them to at least compensate you for the bike.
> Cops really don’t give a shit about theft unless it’s from a business.
My only experience with police and bike theft is the opposite; they police were helpful and recovered my bike. When I first called them they even suggested that I make initial contact with the thief and they’d be there to support the sting, which surprised me a lot! I found the bike a couple of weeks after it was stolen when the thief posted it for sale online, and when I called the police they let me know that the phone number was associated with a “known operator”. I didn’t end up making direct contact with the thief, an undercover officer took care of it. Several officers joined, and they were all super happy to have helped. It was overall a positive and satisfying experience.
This may be very locale-dependent, I’m in the western U.S., not Europe.
My only experience with police and bike theft is the opposite; they police were helpful and recovered my bike. When I first called them they even suggested that I make initial contact with the thief and they’d be there to support the sting, which surprised me a lot! I found the bike a couple of weeks after it was stolen when the thief posted it for sale online, and when I called the police they let me know that the phone number was associated with a “known operator”. I didn’t end up making direct contact with the thief, an undercover officer took care of it. Several officers joined, and they were all super happy to have helped. It was overall a positive and satisfying experience.
This may be very locale-dependent, I’m in the western U.S., not Europe.
I'm also in the western, US (the PNW) and my bike was stolen a couple of years back. It had a sticker and a registration number from my apartment building, which they called and left their phone number saying they found the bike abandoned and want to return it.
I called the number, and they told me to meet up somewhere in a relatively rough neighborhood. I told them I would love to meet up in front of a police precinct which they turned down, saying they don't have a car and can't get there (told them they can ride the bike to the precinct, and I can arrange an Uber to drive them back but unsurprisingly they said no).
I called the Seattle PD and told them everything, asked if they can help me by sending someone at the meeting site. They pretty much burst out laughing, told me not to go as I will likely get robbed or worse, forget about the bike and move on with my life. (I did file a report for the stolen bike though).
I ended up getting some money from my renter's insurance. The bike was worth slightly over $1000 when it was new (was stolen after about a year). I keep my bikes indoors now.
I called the number, and they told me to meet up somewhere in a relatively rough neighborhood. I told them I would love to meet up in front of a police precinct which they turned down, saying they don't have a car and can't get there (told them they can ride the bike to the precinct, and I can arrange an Uber to drive them back but unsurprisingly they said no).
I called the Seattle PD and told them everything, asked if they can help me by sending someone at the meeting site. They pretty much burst out laughing, told me not to go as I will likely get robbed or worse, forget about the bike and move on with my life. (I did file a report for the stolen bike though).
I ended up getting some money from my renter's insurance. The bike was worth slightly over $1000 when it was new (was stolen after about a year). I keep my bikes indoors now.
Isn't that incredible. It's almost "We can't go with you to that place and investigate a crime because a crime might happen!"
I'm not from the US and I've only ever had positive interactions with police, but cases like this which would be low effort for them and have a useful impact on petty crime in their region, seem very frustrating.
I'm not from the US and I've only ever had positive interactions with police, but cases like this which would be low effort for them and have a useful impact on petty crime in their region, seem very frustrating.
> Isn't that incredible. It's almost "We can't go with you to that place and investigate a crime because a crime might happen!"
That's an SPD[1] problem. As a department, its worse then useless.
[1] Not that they are some weird outlier in this regard among US police forces.
That's an SPD[1] problem. As a department, its worse then useless.
[1] Not that they are some weird outlier in this regard among US police forces.
That would never happen in my area in the US. The cops would probably tell you not to go but they’d be interested in every bit of info you had. If it wasn’t in their jurisdiction they’d help me find the right department.
If this is Seattle, I have heard dozens of people tell me about their stolen bikes. And every single one has said the cops basically laughed at them and told them to forget about it.
Re-read your post and it is seattle, I knew it!
Re-read your post and it is seattle, I knew it!
Which Western town / city were you in?
This is almost certainly a UK specific experience. The police here have a track record of treating people who report crimes with disdain.
It’s no different here where I live in Australia, for small property crimes anyway. They’ll file a report at least, but nothing will happen even if you know exactly who did it and have video proof.
More universal than you might suspect. Cops treating the 'citizens' with disdain is a pretty common feature of cops, at least in my experience.
That is, sadly, a rather universal experience.
>> Cops really don't give a shit about theft unless it's from a business.
Have had my place of home and work both burglarized. The difference is that at work they show up, take tons of notes, interview you and your employees, and then ignore you.
I vastly prefer the home burglary experience. At least they're honest about not caring. Both times I had 1080p footage with clear vision of the thieves and cars. Jack shit done about it.
Rinse, repeat, and most people don't even report crimes anymore. Tada! Crime is now "going down."
Have had my place of home and work both burglarized. The difference is that at work they show up, take tons of notes, interview you and your employees, and then ignore you.
I vastly prefer the home burglary experience. At least they're honest about not caring. Both times I had 1080p footage with clear vision of the thieves and cars. Jack shit done about it.
Rinse, repeat, and most people don't even report crimes anymore. Tada! Crime is now "going down."
It’s worrying though. It’s part of the social contract, and I worry about vigilantism rising if cops not doing anything about the majority of crime that affects most normal people is ignored, and that gets worse.
It already is rising, with all the false positives and prejudice induced mistakes you would expect. A Kenyan I know said vigilantism there relies on setting up bait for thieves and having multiple members of the community lie in wait. The thief that takes the bait is caught red handed, beaten severely, and often doused in petrol and burned alive. I said I was sure that probably kept theft pretty low, and he replied it did not, no one ever thinks they will be caught.
Which is why it's more effective to provide proper social safety net programs, work to provide economic opportunity, treat the criminal justice system and detention as rehabilitation, not punishment - and at the very least not have systems that encourage further economic stratification and the concentration of wealth.
US states with the death penalty have significantly higher murder rates than those without...
US states with the death penalty have significantly higher murder rates than those without...
We do all of those things in Scandinavia. Bike theft is everywhere, and the police just tell you to report the crime via online self-serve.
Completely agree with you. It's ruining statistical analysis of actual crime and it's developing serious apathy and nihilism in our population.
And the homeowner is the occupant?? Probably not. Criminals like to move around.
I do have a big problem with the police ignoring cases handed them on a sliver platter even if they are minor, though. Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime.
I do have a big problem with the police ignoring cases handed them on a sliver platter even if they are minor, though. Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime.
> Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime.
Yeah. The same thing happens with bankster's frauds. The difference is that a fraud case is very costly to investigate and prosecute; in this case, as you put it, I gave it to them on a silver platter.
And I'd bet that they'd have recovered dozens of expensive bikes if they'd raided it, and solved at least dozens of open cases.
Yeah. The same thing happens with bankster's frauds. The difference is that a fraud case is very costly to investigate and prosecute; in this case, as you put it, I gave it to them on a silver platter.
And I'd bet that they'd have recovered dozens of expensive bikes if they'd raided it, and solved at least dozens of open cases.
AND limit future thefts by the same people, and likely dissuade future thieves.
If you put the bike thieves in jail, sure. And when your e-bike gets stolen, you may well think you want them in jail. But the next week, the New York Times writes an article about how there are too many non-violent offenders in jail and the incarceration crisis is a national shame. Now the e-bike owner is outraged and wants the thief out of jail. It's not trivial to come up with a punishment that will deter the thieves without also deterring the voters from seeing it administered.
I don't think it's even about putting them in jail for a long time. The current situation has basically zero downsides to stealing a bike. You take it, you sell it, you have cash. The police don't care, they won't even investigate.
If the chances of getting caught for this sort of crime were non-zero, even if the repercussions were a heavy fine, it would hopefully make people think twice before getting involved in it.
If the chances of getting caught for this sort of crime were non-zero, even if the repercussions were a heavy fine, it would hopefully make people think twice before getting involved in it.
How do you think a heavy fine works in practice? You tell the bike thief he needs to pay $1000. He doesn't pay. Then what? You garnish the wages from the regular job he doesn't have? (His actual job is bike thief.) You send bounty hunters?!
Let's say you finally manage to impound his car. Now there's an article about how people's lives are being ruined because of fines and mere misdemeanors. We're back to square one.
Let's say you finally manage to impound his car. Now there's an article about how people's lives are being ruined because of fines and mere misdemeanors. We're back to square one.
I agree. Increasing penalties is a knee-jerk reaction for some kinds of. politician; but it doesn't have any effect, because people don't get caught anyway. If there's a high risk of being caught, the thief might consider another trade.
Yeah, I know, that might just be shifting the problem - he could take up online fraud, or burglary, or mugging instead.
Yeah, I know, that might just be shifting the problem - he could take up online fraud, or burglary, or mugging instead.
With near zero downside, you get rampant crime in particular categories, as seen in San Francisco, or joyriding by underage kids.
> I mean you can prove they're in possession of your property.
To be pedantic, I can only prove they're in possession of the GPS tracker. That cost about £250.
Yes, we have small claims. I think it costs about £50. I'd love to have (partially) got my own back; but I was very much conscious that these people might not be very nice people, and they knew where I lived.
I could have hired thieves to steal it back, I suppose; but I don't know any thieves that I trust (nor that I don't trust!)
To be pedantic, I can only prove they're in possession of the GPS tracker. That cost about £250.
Yes, we have small claims. I think it costs about £50. I'd love to have (partially) got my own back; but I was very much conscious that these people might not be very nice people, and they knew where I lived.
I could have hired thieves to steal it back, I suppose; but I don't know any thieves that I trust (nor that I don't trust!)
IANAL but you don't have to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' in civil cases, just balance of probability. If you fought this case I think you would have a very good chance of getting a judgement. Whether that gets you any actual cash is another matter.
On reflection, I guess I could have sued them for the value of the bike; it would have been a civil case, so it wouldn't have depended on proof, just on the balance of probabilities.
I doubt they would have contested it; it would have been an easy win. But they might have paid me a visit and set fire to my flat.
I doubt they would have contested it; it would have been an easy win. But they might have paid me a visit and set fire to my flat.
Or you might have prevented them from murdering someone. The probably of them coming back and burning your house down come from television but in reality this is not a murder case where they are threatening you not to appear. This isn't so personal that the 250 dollars will cause them spend time/money on a payback plan. Judging by their car they make a lot more than that nightly and you will never see a dime of that court winning.
This is scandalous. I wonder if you could somehow sue the police for not doing their job, or report the guy who refused to investigate.
There seems to be some silly misconception that police sit around twiddling their thumbs doing their level best to ignore crime. The truth is there is far more crime being reported than they can possibly respond to, especially in places like Seattle (which has the highest per-capita rate of property crime overall in the nation, iirc).
On top of that, police staffing levels are at historic lows in some cities- in Seattle, they're at a 30-year low.
If someone isn't in immediate danger, and the situation isn't evolving, the item stolen is particularly mobile and difficult to identify (such as a commodity bike), and not worth a lot of money (cars worth much more are stolen every day) it's going to be way at the bottom of their priority list.
On top of that, police staffing levels are at historic lows in some cities- in Seattle, they're at a 30-year low.
If someone isn't in immediate danger, and the situation isn't evolving, the item stolen is particularly mobile and difficult to identify (such as a commodity bike), and not worth a lot of money (cars worth much more are stolen every day) it's going to be way at the bottom of their priority list.
Property crime is up everywhere. Nothing societally has changed, so I think the onus is on you to prove they aren’t just sitting there twiddling their thumbs. With their powerful unions and patterns of “blue flu”, the police don’t exactly have a great track record of response (not even going into the weeds of armed responses gone awry).
Here is some super trivial googling for you:
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime
Over 46k crimes (property and violent)
1200 officers funded, though I've seen other stats that there are only 940 active employed
800k 911 calls per year
https://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department...
That's 3-ish 911 responses per day, assuming an average of one officer for every call. Add on top of that all of the other things happening, and you would need to be wilfully blind to believe they are sitting around with nothing better to do than look for a stolen bike.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime
Over 46k crimes (property and violent)
1200 officers funded, though I've seen other stats that there are only 940 active employed
800k 911 calls per year
https://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department...
That's 3-ish 911 responses per day, assuming an average of one officer for every call. Add on top of that all of the other things happening, and you would need to be wilfully blind to believe they are sitting around with nothing better to do than look for a stolen bike.
911 calls can’t be used in this metric since they encompass non-police emergencies and non-emergencies as well.
So going off reported crimes, we have 1/10 of a crime per officer per day, or maybe better put, 1 crime per 10 days per officer. So tell me more about how they’re not twiddling their thumbs. Even accounting for administrative work (court appearances, paperwork, etc), that is a ridiculously low crime response rate.
So going off reported crimes, we have 1/10 of a crime per officer per day, or maybe better put, 1 crime per 10 days per officer. So tell me more about how they’re not twiddling their thumbs. Even accounting for administrative work (court appearances, paperwork, etc), that is a ridiculously low crime response rate.
You can't seriously write off 800,000 emergency calls because "maybe not all of them require police response", and then presume that 9/10 police officers sit around twiddling their thumbs. This is pure intellectual dishonesty.
Edit: Also, there's more that police do than administrative paperwork and investigating crime. I'd hazard a guess that a plurality, if not a majority, of police officers on any given shift are walking a beat, patrolling, enforcing traffic laws (i.e. speed limits), car crashes, etc.
Edit: Also, there's more that police do than administrative paperwork and investigating crime. I'd hazard a guess that a plurality, if not a majority, of police officers on any given shift are walking a beat, patrolling, enforcing traffic laws (i.e. speed limits), car crashes, etc.
SPD hasn't done any meaningful traffic enforcement for years. The roads are an utter madhouse.
They might show up to a car crash, though.
They might show up to a car crash, though.
46k crimes, that would be about 120 crimes per day for 1000 officers, probably including a lot of smaller crimes such as stolen bikes. If they never investigate a stolen bike (esp. in that case where the stolen bike was localized), they make bike stealing de facto legal. That being said, I understand they need to prioritize.
> (which has the highest per-capita rate of property crime overall in the nation, iirc).
12th on burglary, 13th on larceny, 40th on motor vehicle theft, 14th 'total' out of 100 US cities.
51st on violent crime, though, so surely, there should be plenty of police resources that aren't devoted on homicides and assaults and drug violence, and other things of that nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
12th on burglary, 13th on larceny, 40th on motor vehicle theft, 14th 'total' out of 100 US cities.
51st on violent crime, though, so surely, there should be plenty of police resources that aren't devoted on homicides and assaults and drug violence, and other things of that nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
At least in the US, you can't:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzale...
Not sure about other jurisdictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzale...
Not sure about other jurisdictions.
> unless it’s from a business
To further clarify, unless it’s a business that makes routine donations to the police department.
Police started out as private business protection for those who paid, mafia style, and they haven’t changed since then.
To further clarify, unless it’s a business that makes routine donations to the police department.
Police started out as private business protection for those who paid, mafia style, and they haven’t changed since then.
in the US I have actually gotten police to respond the homeless issues when calling as a business. not 100%, but they often send someone out. have not paid them off yet.
as a resident? if I call the non-emergency line they just laugh and tell me to move.
as a resident? if I call the non-emergency line they just laugh and tell me to move.
I had this with a stolen iphone in Houston, Texas. I called the local police and they said they couldn't help, I told the operator that's okay, I have a gun and I'll go retrieve it myself. An officer was standing in front of me 10 minutes later. We got the phone back.
And that didn't get you in any trouble?
Why should it? You can conceal carry (or open carry, for that matter) in Texas, and you'd be a lunatic to follow a criminal anywhere to get your property back. Heck I conceal carried when I got my last used car, because there's no way I'm bringing ten grand to get a car from a guy I met on craigslist with no backup
Why shouldn't it? If I rang the police and said "I'm about to commit violence against someone else" you can bet I'd be arrested. Why doesn't the same rule apply here? Carrying a weapon being or not being legal has no bearing on this at all.
Why violence. He just announced he's going to pick up his property that got misplaced. Gun is just for his protection. Nothing out of ordinary here.
It's heavily implied, and to pretend it's not is dishonest at best.
(not a fan of US gun laws)
Not necessarily. I think just carrying a weapon might make the other party more likely to cooperate. Even if you don't take it out.
Not necessarily. I think just carrying a weapon might make the other party more likely to cooperate. Even if you don't take it out.
Sure, but imagine calling the police and saying "I'm carrying a massive knife and I'm going to my ex to get my things back". There is no threat here. It's legal to own and carry a knife(in most places). It's legal to go to your ex and go grab your things.
But I bet that if you did that police would show up as there is an implied threat of violence. I mean, clearly it applies even in OP's case, since police did show up - I'm just surprised he didn't get in trouble for basically using the police as his personal bodyguards by implying things will get violent.
But I bet that if you did that police would show up as there is an implied threat of violence. I mean, clearly it applies even in OP's case, since police did show up - I'm just surprised he didn't get in trouble for basically using the police as his personal bodyguards by implying things will get violent.
As a Texan, that doesn't surprise me. In some places, saying that kind of thing could maybe violate the letter of the law. Texas is the kind of place where it doesn't violate the letter of the law, because you can concealed carry, kind of doesn't violate the spirit of the law, which is quite permissive in allowing the use of force in defense of property ( https://www.dougmurphylaw.com/defense-of-property ) (not to say that it does permit you to use force after it's stolen and you want to go get it back, just that doing so is closer to the spirit of the law than it would be in many places), and even if it did violate the law, the general ethos of the state is such that unless something actually comes of it, shooting your mouth off like that would just kind of be like jaywalking. If technically a crime, if nothing came of it, it's just a freewheeling culture in terms of weapons, defending property with force, freedom of speech, and egotistical violent grandstanding, and it'll probably be ignored as an insignificant minor technical violation not worth prosecuting, again, as long as nothing really comes of it.
It's hard to put into words, but as a Texan, I can see how police would react exactly like they did. No guarantees, especially for minorities, it could go very badly, but the whole situation isn't surprising to me at all as a Texas native.
It's hard to put into words, but as a Texan, I can see how police would react exactly like they did. No guarantees, especially for minorities, it could go very badly, but the whole situation isn't surprising to me at all as a Texas native.
C'mon it was in Texas
Still, you’re implying the use of a deadly weapon on someone else’s property. That’s going to get you in trouble.
Well, I considered warning the WM police that I was going to rock up at the thieves' front door, and ask them nicely to give me back my property. And warning the cops that I expected a breach of the peace to occur, becauase I thought it was likely they would beat me up.
Failing to take measures to prevent a breach of the peace that they had been warned about would be bad publicity, at best.
But I'm not inclined to take on cops and robbers at the same time. Like a circular gunfight, except with me in the middle.
Failing to take measures to prevent a breach of the peace that they had been warned about would be bad publicity, at best.
But I'm not inclined to take on cops and robbers at the same time. Like a circular gunfight, except with me in the middle.
How hard would it be be to get a gun (even a hunting rifle) or other weapons in the UK?
If you did tell the police that you were going to take the law into your own hands, what would happen?
If you did tell the police that you were going to take the law into your own hands, what would happen?
It's never hard to get a gun, you can make a slam fire shotgun at any local hardware store with minimal tools involved. Ammo is another story
1) takes about 3 months and an interview with a police officer, than you can buy whatever you want(handguns are not allowed under any circumstances though)
2) you'd be arrasted, or at the very least told that if you do that, you will be in trouble.
2) you'd be arrasted, or at the very least told that if you do that, you will be in trouble.
I wonder if you could slightly limit your exposure here by noting that you were legally carrying a gun, but for self protection. So there was less of an implied threat, but still maybe enough to spark a bit of police support?
A friend of mine had his bike stolen in Oxford. Someone came and took all the bikes at my house one night (except mine, because mine was awful and worthless). My friend later spotted the bike being ridden by a homeless man in the city. He was riding his other bike and made chase. The thief tried to outrun him, but my friend was on his racing bike. When he started to ring the police and describe his location, the thief dropped the bike and ran. I don't think I've ever seen a more proud looking man when he returned home that evening with two bikes. At least this one bike, on this one occasion, stayed in Oxford.
Homeless man overreacted. The police would not dispatch an officer to pursue.
The homeless man wasn't concerned about the police; he was concerned about the guy chasing him down.
Good reminder that the assertion "police exist to protect private property" is incomplete. They protect certain private property, but in general not your private property.
Police in the US seem to exist to perpetuate the institution of policing and secondarily to prosecute the drug war. Everything else seems to compete for priority 3.
This is true of most "public servant" roles. TSA employees, public school teachers, etc. - none of them, as a class, have the nominal productive capability of their job as the highest priority.
Also: you are not allowed to protect your own property. Call the police instead.
Anarcho-tyranny: the police will not enforce the law, but they will punish you if you enforce it yourself.
> Anarcho-tyranny: the police will not enforce the law, but they will punish you if you enforce it yourself.
This is a truly horrible state of affairs. Case in point, this is unfortunately super common in Canada: [1] (these stories might shock you) https://www.kruselaw.ca/library/using-reasonable-force-to-de... [2] https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1230/index... [3] https://whatthelaw.com/blog/self-defence-laws-in-canada-myth...
Canada takes Christ’s Sermon on the Mount message of “do not resist an evil person” (https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-39.htm) into the reality of practical applied law, by punishing those who defend themselves.
This is a truly horrible state of affairs. Case in point, this is unfortunately super common in Canada: [1] (these stories might shock you) https://www.kruselaw.ca/library/using-reasonable-force-to-de... [2] https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1230/index... [3] https://whatthelaw.com/blog/self-defence-laws-in-canada-myth...
Canada takes Christ’s Sermon on the Mount message of “do not resist an evil person” (https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-39.htm) into the reality of practical applied law, by punishing those who defend themselves.
Unless you live in Texas, where up to and including lethal force is lawful to protect property.
I’d have just gone and got it with ten of my mates. For real. Funny how upbringings are different. I grew up in a council estate in Liverpool and no way we’d stand for that shit we’d go to war.
Your way is better.
Your way is better.
I heard from a friend in Cambridge that thieves would often spend a few days in Cambridge just hoovering up students' unlocked bikes into a van, then drive over to Oxford and sell them for cheap.
Then while in Oxford they'd spend a few days hoovering up students' unlocked bikes into a van, then drive over to Cambridge...
Then while in Oxford they'd spend a few days hoovering up students' unlocked bikes into a van, then drive over to Cambridge...
This is why cell phones just disable themselves when stolen even though infinitely traceable they have GPS and cell service after all). Nobody cares.
Probably illegal, but a GPS tracking and remote braking could be a “fun” (actually really dangerous) combo for a stolen bike. Of course it is just as likely that some unfortunate person would have unknowingly bought your stolen bike, so that’d be bad.
It’s probably legal. Modern cars do this, with the caveat that the owner can’t control the remote disabler.
Interesting legal gymnastics would required to make it legal for a Detroit automaker to do this, but not an individual. However, such gymnastics are sadly common these days and wouldn’t surprise me.
Interesting legal gymnastics would required to make it legal for a Detroit automaker to do this, but not an individual. However, such gymnastics are sadly common these days and wouldn’t surprise me.
There's a difference between "the next time this car stops it won't move again" and "remotely engage the brakes no matter what the car is doing".
It'd be nice to see e-bikes that just go into full generator mode when they're reported stolen; a bike that you can't petal is useless.
It'd be nice to see e-bikes that just go into full generator mode when they're reported stolen; a bike that you can't petal is useless.
Another fun way is to gradually lock up the front wheel of the bike so it gets harder and harder to balance on it. If gradually enough this may be enough to convince thief it's just broken or bad.
Rented ebikes do this - take them outside their allowed geozone and they will periodically change the motor speed to throw you off (or at least go very slowly)
I don't think companies are willing to handle the liabilities of "throwing people off". Probably just slowing it down to an unusable level.
I think by “throw you off” you mean, sort of make the rider uncomfortable by presenting a slightly unfamiliar riding characteristic, right? Stopping the front wheel quickly enough could throw the rider off in a much more literal sense!
See YouTube for electric shock bait bike
So at what value do they start to consider doing their job?
It isn't about the value of property, it's about the effort required and chances of improving future career prospects. Recovering stolen bikes is, therefore, very low priority.
I had a similar experience where I followed a bike thief to his home, again police not interested.
Police forces in the UK have various campaigns where they will, for example, spend a month targeting a particular crime or social nuisance. With much fanfare press releases will be issued about how many people were charged with not wearing a seatbelt whilst driving, for example, and for the rest of the year not wearing a seatbelt will be relegated back to being ignored again.
The default excuse for this behaviour is lack of resources due to Govt cutbacks, which sounds fair until something interesting happens and suddenly 1000 police cars appear from nowhere.
I had a similar experience where I followed a bike thief to his home, again police not interested.
Police forces in the UK have various campaigns where they will, for example, spend a month targeting a particular crime or social nuisance. With much fanfare press releases will be issued about how many people were charged with not wearing a seatbelt whilst driving, for example, and for the rest of the year not wearing a seatbelt will be relegated back to being ignored again.
The default excuse for this behaviour is lack of resources due to Govt cutbacks, which sounds fair until something interesting happens and suddenly 1000 police cars appear from nowhere.
Also...I saw regular drug dealing from a house and told police multiple times...no action.
I told my councillor who lives on the same street. They spoke to the community officer about it, they put two CSO's (Police Community Support Officer. Civilians dressed like police, no power of arrest!) in a car to watch the place. A few days later it was raided at 5am by a huge force.
It really matters who you are!
I told my councillor who lives on the same street. They spoke to the community officer about it, they put two CSO's (Police Community Support Officer. Civilians dressed like police, no power of arrest!) in a car to watch the place. A few days later it was raided at 5am by a huge force.
It really matters who you are!
> Civilians dressed like police
All police are civilians. Don't let them tell you otherwise.
All police are civilians. Don't let them tell you otherwise.
By what definition, because Merriam Webster says otherwise [1]
> one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian
> one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian
What would happened if your were to obtain some weapons, and attempt to execute the recovery by yourself?
Well, I'm not a fighting man. Probably the outcome would be that my adversary would take the weapon off me, and use it against me. Also, the resulting breach of the peace would put me in the frame for assault with a deadly weapon.
> My anecdote appears to confirm that bikes stolen in Oxford don't stay in Oxford.
I've never been to Oxford but I'm guessing it has a lower density of bicycles per square meter than Amsterdam. Presumably it's easier for stolen bikes to 'blend in' in Amsterdam?
I've never been to Oxford but I'm guessing it has a lower density of bicycles per square meter than Amsterdam. Presumably it's easier for stolen bikes to 'blend in' in Amsterdam?
Yes. I read the article and thought, no shit. Given that most people ride cheap bikes it doesn't really make sense to transport them to somewhere else and it might just incur additional operational risk. Much easier to just resell them back into the same city.
Which also explains why the 2K electric bike is taken somewhere else – if you tried to sell it in the same town there's higher chances the owners find out about it (like from a Facebook posting) and involve the police. Understanding that the police don't work super well across district lines seems to have solved this problem for the thieves here (and created problems for everyone else instead).
Which also explains why the 2K electric bike is taken somewhere else – if you tried to sell it in the same town there's higher chances the owners find out about it (like from a Facebook posting) and involve the police. Understanding that the police don't work super well across district lines seems to have solved this problem for the thieves here (and created problems for everyone else instead).
Oxford is a cycle city. Unlike Amsterdam, it has very poor cycle infrastructure; roads are narrow, and can't be widened because of preserved ancient buildings. There are more and more restrictions on ICE traffic, including ZEZs and LTNs. I don't drive, but it is definitely hard to get around in a car.
There are two universities, and countless EFL schools and other schools; and students visiting Oxford are strongly discouraged from bringing cars. The universities have about 60,000 students between them (in a town whose permanent population is 140,000).
So Oxford has a LOT of bikes.
There are two universities, and countless EFL schools and other schools; and students visiting Oxford are strongly discouraged from bringing cars. The universities have about 60,000 students between them (in a town whose permanent population is 140,000).
So Oxford has a LOT of bikes.
Interesting! I'll have to visit sometime, sounds like a fascinating place.
I have been to Oxford and I would not be so sure!
Bikes are everywhere in Oxford, probably due to the Uni
Bikes are everywhere in Oxford, probably due to the Uni
I think it might about the price. You had a 2000 pound bike. Amsterdam is full of 50 pound bikes.
Only about half of murders even get solved, so it's no surprise the lack of response to your bike.
In the US you get renters or homeowners insurance. They usually cover stuff like bikes.
2000 ... well going to get my buddies and talk to the new „owner“.
Next time tell them "ok thanks no worries - I'll just take a gun with me to go get it on my own then".
You'll have officers there pretty sharpish :)
You'll have officers there pretty sharpish :)
I'll take the cops at their word:
They have limited resources, and can not go after every criminal, even if it's a slam dunk case.
They have limited resources, and can not go after every criminal, even if it's a slam dunk case.
If one's bike is stolen in the San Francisco Bay Area, there's a small but significant chance you can find it for sale at the Laney College Flea Market (e.g. [1]).
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/BAbike/comments/8mmrne/stolen_bike_...
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/BAbike/comments/8mmrne/stolen_bike_...
Bay Area here. Kid’s bike was stolen from driveway (lock clipped) and I found it online a few hours later. I called police non-emergency line and told them I had already set up a meeting to “buy it”; they offered to assist if an officer was available, and I brought a “tough” buddy in case not. Thief had a much bigger buddy hanging out ~50’ away (cop recognized them immediately). In the end: officer showed up, perp got arrested, and my kid got their bike back.
In LA county you aren't going to want your bike back. It's going to be spraypainted, missing components, thrown in the street, and perhaps made into a load bearing wall of someones ramshackle roadside home. Just insure your bike so you can write it off and get a new one without too much trouble or stress.
In the Oakland/Berkeley/Albany/El Cerrito area, you want to check out Karim's in Berkeley.
lol, that shop is the first thing I thought of when I read the headline
Yeah, Karim got raided a few years back but they couldn't make anything stick. Most people don't even record serial numbers on their bikes, much less register them with any type of organization that police can check for stolen bikes.
I pass by a very large cache of bikes every day on the way to work. The quantity ebbs and flows. Perhaps they're all procured legitimately, but somehow I doubt it. No one seems to be interested in investigating it because it's been going on for quite some time now.
https://goo.gl/maps/eJPJcPca3DuptoFY6
https://goo.gl/maps/eJPJcPca3DuptoFY6
Or under the Division Street overpass, but I disclaim responsibility if you go looking there.
Hahaha this is really some "why does water flow down" level shit. Bikes in NL get stolen by junkies, homeless, generally people without many options and definitely without the ability to do organized crime. They sell it asap, by circling around random people and saying "hey wanna buy a bike?" and then they buy whatever hit/food they needed to steal and sell the bike for. It's a pretty sad situation IMO, but it's no mystery.
I know lots of people who bought their own bike back at some point in life, and even more who never bought a bike from anyone other than someone like this. Bike theft in NL really is the pettiest of petty crimes and I'm confused about what makes MIT, of all places, decide to try and figure this out.
I know lots of people who bought their own bike back at some point in life, and even more who never bought a bike from anyone other than someone like this. Bike theft in NL really is the pettiest of petty crimes and I'm confused about what makes MIT, of all places, decide to try and figure this out.
Maybe in NL, but in US/Canada organized bike theft is a bit more than "pettiest of petty crimes". For example: https://bikeindex.org/news/closing-the-loop-a-deep-dive-on-a...
A number of my friends have had $10-30k of bikes stolen. Based on the surrounding circumstances, at least some, if not most, were targeted by an organized set of individuals and not just random.
A number of my friends have had $10-30k of bikes stolen. Based on the surrounding circumstances, at least some, if not most, were targeted by an organized set of individuals and not just random.
One of the things that make bike culture stick is that most bikes are just really cheap those places. On one hand this means they're protected relatively less and so would be rather easy to pick up, on the other it means no one bothers organising a theft ring as the returns are too low. Fancy bikes are something completely different and would attract another level of organised crime.
I can't recommend enough putting your bikes on your renters or homeowners insurance. There is no lock that is cut proof, and even if there was, your components can just get stripped or the rack itself even could be cut. If you have insurance, however, its not even a couple bucks a month extra on my policy to get the bike on there for zero deductible coverage, and offers me a lot of piece of mind.
This is contradicted by the article's findings that a substantial fraction (22/70) of bike thefts in Amsterdam flow through an organized system
> The scholars found that still another 22 of the bikes made such sufficiently similar movements that they seemed to be part of the same “subnetwork” of bikes.
> This research makes it clear that part of bicycle theft is organized.
Beyond learning specific things about the flow of stolen bikes in Amsterdam, the research is part of a broader body of work by Senseable City Lab that uses these trackers to try to understand the flow of physical goods through complicated/emergent systems.
> The scholars found that still another 22 of the bikes made such sufficiently similar movements that they seemed to be part of the same “subnetwork” of bikes.
> This research makes it clear that part of bicycle theft is organized.
Beyond learning specific things about the flow of stolen bikes in Amsterdam, the research is part of a broader body of work by Senseable City Lab that uses these trackers to try to understand the flow of physical goods through complicated/emergent systems.
The first line on the Amsterdam stolen bike report form at the local police station reads:
"Waar heeft u het rijwiel zelf gestolen?"
Which translates as:
"Where did you steal the bike yourself?"
So at least in Amsterdam this fact was common knowledge ;)
"Waar heeft u het rijwiel zelf gestolen?"
Which translates as:
"Where did you steal the bike yourself?"
So at least in Amsterdam this fact was common knowledge ;)
I don’t understand this. Are they assuming everyone reporting a theft stole the bike they’re reporting in the first place? Even if that was the case, who in their right mind would admit it on a police report?
It is a joke...
Are the police good-humored? Or is it not on the form, but a quip to poke fun at law enforcement, or at common bike "borrowing" in the city?
The latter.
It isn't rare at all to have your bike stolen and the less fortunate have a choice of buying a new one or a second hand one, and that second hand one my be of questionable provenance. Bought on a bridge was an expression when I lived in Amsterdam.
I've yet to have a bike stolen but I've always been completely paranoid about it taking my bike into stores and apartments :) This is a lot easier with a Brompton than with my current bike though.
It isn't rare at all to have your bike stolen and the less fortunate have a choice of buying a new one or a second hand one, and that second hand one my be of questionable provenance. Bought on a bridge was an expression when I lived in Amsterdam.
I've yet to have a bike stolen but I've always been completely paranoid about it taking my bike into stores and apartments :) This is a lot easier with a Brompton than with my current bike though.
I didn’t hear the tone in your text
This is not really surprising to locals. The joke was always that if your bike is stolen when you get back, you'd just steal another one and keep the circulation going.
During the 90s the stories were about heroin junkies selling bikes for 25 NLG (11.34 EUR). Clearly not the type of people with the organizational skills to set up an international crime syndicate.
These were stories, and it's good/interesting to check in case they were wrong, but the results are as one would expect.
(Another common observational joke about inner city bikes is that the value of the locks commonly exceed the value of the bikes they lock.)
During the 90s the stories were about heroin junkies selling bikes for 25 NLG (11.34 EUR). Clearly not the type of people with the organizational skills to set up an international crime syndicate.
These were stories, and it's good/interesting to check in case they were wrong, but the results are as one would expect.
(Another common observational joke about inner city bikes is that the value of the locks commonly exceed the value of the bikes they lock.)
When the article stated “We thought bikes might be stolen and sent abroad." I nearly spat out my coffee. It really is amusing to watch MIT laboratory types spend a bunch of time and effort to rediscover what was plainly known beforehand.
You've got to give them some credit. MIT laboratory types are apparently clever enough to get funding for a multi-month "research trip" to Amsterdam.
Eh, in Amsterdam you'll get plenty of people mentioning that there's people in vans who go and steal a bunch of bikes at night (scoping them and sometimes locking them with their own lock during the day), and driving them off to somewhere in Eastern Europe. I'm not sure particularly of the truth of this, beyond this article suggesting it's probably not the case, but it's definitely something in the popular consciousness there.
Thing is, "dutch bikes" often don't have a great reputation. Few moving parts, so very reliable, but slow as fuck. Single speed, so crap for anywhere with even tiny hills. Rear coaster brakes. Front drum brakes if you're lucky. Again, problematic if you can gain speed on a decline or otherwise need to stop quickly because you have inadequate bicycle infra. 10kg of low-grade steel tube and heavy af steel wheels (stuff that spins is effectively 2x as heavy).
> The joke was always that if your bike is stolen when you get back, you'd just steal another one and keep the circulation going.
I saw a post-War Italian movie a while back in which the main character was lucky to get a job placing advertising posters around the city. He only got the job because he had a bike. While doing the job his bike was stolen. He tried to steal another so he could keep working to support his family, but was caught in the act and thrown in jail. I can't remember the name of the movie.
I saw a post-War Italian movie a while back in which the main character was lucky to get a job placing advertising posters around the city. He only got the job because he had a bike. While doing the job his bike was stolen. He tried to steal another so he could keep working to support his family, but was caught in the act and thrown in jail. I can't remember the name of the movie.
Bicycle Thieves, very sad. The owner of the bike he steals lets him off the hook at the end, but he's still desolate.
> (Another common observational joke about inner city bikes is that the value of the locks commonly exceed the value of the bikes they lock.)
Note attached to my uncle's thesis (he's a physics PhD): 'The sum of the weight of bicycle and lock is a constant.'
Note attached to my uncle's thesis (he's a physics PhD): 'The sum of the weight of bicycle and lock is a constant.'
There was a security researcher in NYC that wrote about recovering his stolen scooter with an Airtag that discussed part of this question. At least some of the shops know they've got stolen merch and actively look for Airtags or other trackers.
Found it:
https://www.cnet.com/culture/guy-successfully-hunts-down-his...
Found it:
https://www.cnet.com/culture/guy-successfully-hunts-down-his...
I have an airtag on mine but I’m not super convinced it will make a difference:
- whenever I pick up the bike to ride it after a long period of not using it (say overnight or after a day of work), the airtag starts ringing. I don’t know why it does that but it would for sure tip the thief off
- don’t iPhones and maybe androids now show some kind of notification and offer to disable the tag if a tag you don’t own starts following you? That would also prevent me from finding the bike
- AirTags don’t report their altitude, only their location. Good luck figuring out in which apartment and on which floor it’s kept. Police would most likely decline to help as they can’t search every apartment
- whenever I pick up the bike to ride it after a long period of not using it (say overnight or after a day of work), the airtag starts ringing. I don’t know why it does that but it would for sure tip the thief off
- don’t iPhones and maybe androids now show some kind of notification and offer to disable the tag if a tag you don’t own starts following you? That would also prevent me from finding the bike
- AirTags don’t report their altitude, only their location. Good luck figuring out in which apartment and on which floor it’s kept. Police would most likely decline to help as they can’t search every apartment
I bet those AirTag dealies don't include any mechanism that disables themselves if the speaker is physically defeated
They don't. And you can silence them with any amount of pressure on the outer case.
Air tags ring so abusers can't use them to track a person secretly. The speaker can be disabled though.
I've always figured that if I buy a bike from Craigslist, I should check the serial number and look it up on bikeindex.org. If I ran a used bike shop, that would definitely be part of my procedure.
I can't imagine it being worthwhile to take a bike very far unless it is a very expensive bike.
If they are normal bikes, you would have to transport them in numbers, and it would be hard to explain it if you got caught. And you would need a van.
Best solution: steal local, sell local for fast turnover of minimal stocks.
I lost my bike twice in Cambridge: once found it around the corner and another in the police depo. So someone had just taken it to get somewhere.
If they are normal bikes, you would have to transport them in numbers, and it would be hard to explain it if you got caught. And you would need a van.
Best solution: steal local, sell local for fast turnover of minimal stocks.
I lost my bike twice in Cambridge: once found it around the corner and another in the police depo. So someone had just taken it to get somewhere.
In Seattle, high end bikes are targeted to be disassembled for components. The components can then easily be fenced for drug money.
I remember my co-worker at the bike shop talking about this and how people in the area will sand their frames down and remove labels and anything else that would give their bike a look and feel of being expensive. Even adding duct and black electrical tape to ward off thieves from going after their bikes.
Sounds like a good strategy. I've seen people throw trash in their car parked on the street to dissuade having their window bashed in. Add some tape to the exterior, make your car look as junkie as possible. These are the days we are living in.
People will do anything to try and counter bike theft instead of just getting insurance. It did take me one bike theft myself to learn that lesson though.
In high theft areas, insurance is jacked up because the risk is so high. If you are getting your bike stolen every 3 or 4 months, the insurance company has already adjusted your premium so that they aren't losing money.
Insurance is great for rare unpredictable events. It is not cost-effective at all for common predictable events.
Insurance is great for rare unpredictable events. It is not cost-effective at all for common predictable events.
I live in a county with almost 100k homeless people, and I pay another $1 a month on my renters insurance policy (itself around $12) to insure the bike with no deductable. It really is cheap if you use renters or homeowners insurance. I'm sure many of those "bike specific" insurance policies nickel and dime since the pool is probably a lot smaller.
Your insurance keeps renewing at the same rate after 1 or more claims???
Can you identify the insurer so I can short their stock?
Can you identify the insurer so I can short their stock?
Reading the comment, it seems like they are getting a bunch of other stuff covered, so the insurance company is still making a profit even if they are constantly getting reimbursed for stolen bikes?
[deleted]
Finally a case where purposefully distressing something has a use!
I saw a decent bike a while back that had had newspaper glued all over the frame.
Write your phone number all over every part in permanent marker.
Nobody will buy something covered in phone numbers without at least calling the number. The thief can't be bothered to repaint the whole bike to cover it. Hence, the bike is now worthless to a thief, so it won't get stolen.
Nobody will buy something covered in phone numbers without at least calling the number. The thief can't be bothered to repaint the whole bike to cover it. Hence, the bike is now worthless to a thief, so it won't get stolen.
I doubt that would deter them, they'll either spray-paint the frame it it's a cheap bike, or just strip it for parts if it's high-end.
I've tried it... It seems to have reduced by ~75% the number of thefts I've had. (I used to have a bike stolen every 3-4 weeks, and now I only lose one every 3-4 months)
Jeez man why aren't you insuring them?
These are $25 bikes that I buy in bulk and just use around the city for me and my friends. They're locked with $2 combination locks, sometimes just to a plant. It really isn't surprising they go missing, but they're cheaper than a rental bike.
Care to post a link to a picture of these $25 dollars bikes. They almost sound mythical.
Yeah, anything minimally operational would sell for $150+ in Toronto
Isopropyl alcohol cleans that right up, no paint necessary.
[deleted]
Can confirm, there's an RV outside my house right now that has a a giant trailer full of half-chopped up bike frames and parts. They get stuff in and fire up some kind of machinery to grind them apart in the middle of the night. Two RVs down from that is the drug dealer.
It's not just high end bikes. It's everything. Motorcycles and scooters too.
It's not just high end bikes. It's everything. Motorcycles and scooters too.
[deleted]
Minneapolis has been a hotbed of stolen bikes for a few years now. I remember several friends getting their high end dirt bikes stolen in the 80's, only to show up in a Chicago police auction two years later.
There was an article in the local paper about bike thefts in 2019 and mentioned the Project 529 site which is one of the largest bike registries.
https://project529.com/garage/
From the 2019 article:
Bike theft is at a five-year high, and Police Department data obtained by the Star Tribune shows almost 4,300 bikes reported stolen since 2017.
The rash of thefts frustrates cyclists and police, who don’t always have time to track down stolen bikes amid other more serious calls. But for thieves, selling stolen bikes — some valued at more than $4,000 — can be a quick way to make hundreds of dollars.
https://www.startribune.com/bicycle-thefts-hit-five-year-hig...
I had no idea someone had started a Facebook group for stolen bikes called "Twin Cities Stolen Bikes" where people can go and report their bike and ask for help.
There was an article in the local paper about bike thefts in 2019 and mentioned the Project 529 site which is one of the largest bike registries.
https://project529.com/garage/
From the 2019 article:
Bike theft is at a five-year high, and Police Department data obtained by the Star Tribune shows almost 4,300 bikes reported stolen since 2017.
The rash of thefts frustrates cyclists and police, who don’t always have time to track down stolen bikes amid other more serious calls. But for thieves, selling stolen bikes — some valued at more than $4,000 — can be a quick way to make hundreds of dollars.
https://www.startribune.com/bicycle-thefts-hit-five-year-hig...
I had no idea someone had started a Facebook group for stolen bikes called "Twin Cities Stolen Bikes" where people can go and report their bike and ask for help.
Property theft can be broadly separated into two categories: opportunistic and professional.
You leave your wallet on a restaurant table by accident it may well get stolen opportunistically. The thief may have limited or no history of theft. An opportunity merely presented itself. It could also be teenagers stealing a car for a joyride.
The second, bigger category is professional theft. Note that "professional" here is statement about skill or even organization. It's just done as a source of income. So when you see anything stolen at scale the first thing to consider is how easily is this converted into money because that's where the majority of it goes.
So for stolen bikes it surprises me not at all that they stay local. I imagine an awful lot of bikes are sold privately through predictable channels (eg Craigslist, FB Marketplace, flea markets). It may not even be pawn shops because those generally have ID requirements.
Higher end bikes may end up being shipped (eg [1]) because the more expensive and rarer (and thus more identifiable) a bike, the more risk in selling it locally and the harder it is to maybe find a buyer.
I'm actually surprised so many people report stolen bikes. Like what does this do, really? Is there really going to be an insurance claim? If it's thousands of dollars I would totally understand but most bikes are cheap. Interestingly I once had a garage door left open. An expensive mountain bike was stolen and they didn't bother taking my cheap piece of crap bike.
[1]: https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/report-reveals-pipeli...
You leave your wallet on a restaurant table by accident it may well get stolen opportunistically. The thief may have limited or no history of theft. An opportunity merely presented itself. It could also be teenagers stealing a car for a joyride.
The second, bigger category is professional theft. Note that "professional" here is statement about skill or even organization. It's just done as a source of income. So when you see anything stolen at scale the first thing to consider is how easily is this converted into money because that's where the majority of it goes.
So for stolen bikes it surprises me not at all that they stay local. I imagine an awful lot of bikes are sold privately through predictable channels (eg Craigslist, FB Marketplace, flea markets). It may not even be pawn shops because those generally have ID requirements.
Higher end bikes may end up being shipped (eg [1]) because the more expensive and rarer (and thus more identifiable) a bike, the more risk in selling it locally and the harder it is to maybe find a buyer.
I'm actually surprised so many people report stolen bikes. Like what does this do, really? Is there really going to be an insurance claim? If it's thousands of dollars I would totally understand but most bikes are cheap. Interestingly I once had a garage door left open. An expensive mountain bike was stolen and they didn't bother taking my cheap piece of crap bike.
[1]: https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/report-reveals-pipeli...
I live in NL. I had many bikes stolen over the years.
Once my bike got stolen in the middle of the night in the city center. I searched for my bike the next day but could not find it. I reported it to the police, but did not expect much of it.
About a week later I received a phone call from the police telling me someone found my bike. Apparently this person was woken up in the middle of the night by someone trying to break open the bike lock under his bedroom window. He scared away the thief. Because the lock was damaged he put the bike in his shed. He put notes in mailboxes of all his neighbors to ask if someone was missing their bike. He got no response and thought: oh I might just tell the police; but I doubt it will help much.
Well it did! I was happy I reported it stolen that time.
Once my bike got stolen in the middle of the night in the city center. I searched for my bike the next day but could not find it. I reported it to the police, but did not expect much of it.
About a week later I received a phone call from the police telling me someone found my bike. Apparently this person was woken up in the middle of the night by someone trying to break open the bike lock under his bedroom window. He scared away the thief. Because the lock was damaged he put the bike in his shed. He put notes in mailboxes of all his neighbors to ask if someone was missing their bike. He got no response and thought: oh I might just tell the police; but I doubt it will help much.
Well it did! I was happy I reported it stolen that time.
Even if the police can not do a lot about it, the report will end up in some statistic. That statistic in turn might lead to more resources assigned to the issue, either directly (crack downs, recovery squads, whatever) or indirectly (programs to get people into proper jobs, help for drug addicts, whatever). This might also serve as a control for indirect measures.
People often demand decision makers to make good decisions, and to look at the data. But then we need to apply that data to them.
People often demand decision makers to make good decisions, and to look at the data. But then we need to apply that data to them.
There is a wide sidewalk that runs under a four-lane road right next to my office. During COVID that underpass became a homeless camp and bike chop shop. When they reopen the office, I could sit and watch out the window as people were bringing bikes down there and was able to watch them take them apart for parts (presumably to sell).
The cops obviously knew of it, as they would visit it regularly.
The cops eventually shut it down and it took the city a couple weeks to fully clean it out of all the refuse that was built up.
The cops obviously knew of it, as they would visit it regularly.
The cops eventually shut it down and it took the city a couple weeks to fully clean it out of all the refuse that was built up.
There was an interesting article a while back about what happens to stolen bikes in Seattle:
https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2014/10/this-i...
https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2014/10/this-i...
my uncle bought a stolen bike from a bike-stealer-and-then-reseller in Taiwan in the 90s, brought it home with him when he went back to the US, and gave it to me when I moved to Redmond. I used it for a bit until the seat broke, after which it remained on the porch of my apartment, seatless, until someone stole it, apparently unperturbed by the lack of seat—I just figured it was karmic justice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz6Ade9PDzg I put out a bait bike in San Francisco and was surprised how relatively straight forward it was to get it back. It's disappointing how few bike companies are installing trackers from the factory.
What's the best guess as to how many people are stealing 25,000 bikes?
100? Only takes that many to wreck society?
I mean once someone learns they are successful at stealing one without repercussions and reselling it, why would they stop and not turn it into a living?
Now do a study on that somehow because I am really curious if it is 100 or 1,000
100? Only takes that many to wreck society?
I mean once someone learns they are successful at stealing one without repercussions and reselling it, why would they stop and not turn it into a living?
Now do a study on that somehow because I am really curious if it is 100 or 1,000
Local journalists (Bratislava, Slovakia) used these trackers to prove that some separated waste is being burned instead of being recycled. The company responsible for waste processing lost its contract with the city after the story was published. Trackers can be quite effective when used right.
I have a bridge to sell anyone that thinks plastics sent overseas are being recycled instead of incinerated for their caloric value.
I caught a guy stealing a neighbor's bike and told him "Why don't we do this instead, I give you mine, and you never return because if you do I'll fry your eyeballs with an industrial laser", he took it, and I got an excuse to buy a new bike.
(Not actually an industrial laser)
(Not actually an industrial laser)
I can't imagine the situation you described. Was he just standing there having a conversation with you?
yes because he was in my neighbor's back yard and there was only one way out unless he could jump a 5' fence. not sure where my neighbor was at the time. she's a french teacher so this guy got off lucky that i got to him first, lol
I remember an article about a sewer tunnel in LA (or maybe Las Vegas) that was completely packed with 1000+ stolen bikes. Most of the bikes were rusted out and unusable, it seemed like whoever was stealing them had no plan beyond storing a ton of bikes in a hole.
I grew up in a village in India with most people with very low income but pretty large population around. I almost never heard of a bike theft. I wonder why places like US and Netherlands have such large incidents of bike theft?
I was reading this article and thinking the same thing.
My friend had an expensive electric bike. It got stolen. He's a teacher but his wife is a well paid doctor.
He posted somewhere that the bike was stolen. Surprisingly, someone contacted him and told him they found it.
It was really strange the way the "finder" offered to return it. They had them meet them in another suburb 30 minutes away. They requested a substantial reward. The whole thing was strange.
It makes me think that there are people who live in a grey economy that steal bikes because they aren't hurting someone in the same way that breaking into a house or stealing a car would hurt someone (or worse). Bikes are a luxury good at the high end, and that's what my friend lost.
Bike thievery is a gateway to a decent income when you have no other choices. At least that's what it seemed like when my friend had that experience. It seemed like it was a well thought out scam that was done by someone with intelligence and desperation.
My friend had an expensive electric bike. It got stolen. He's a teacher but his wife is a well paid doctor.
He posted somewhere that the bike was stolen. Surprisingly, someone contacted him and told him they found it.
It was really strange the way the "finder" offered to return it. They had them meet them in another suburb 30 minutes away. They requested a substantial reward. The whole thing was strange.
It makes me think that there are people who live in a grey economy that steal bikes because they aren't hurting someone in the same way that breaking into a house or stealing a car would hurt someone (or worse). Bikes are a luxury good at the high end, and that's what my friend lost.
Bike thievery is a gateway to a decent income when you have no other choices. At least that's what it seemed like when my friend had that experience. It seemed like it was a well thought out scam that was done by someone with intelligence and desperation.
I had a bike stolen at burning man, and it ended up in NEW ZEALAND! I couldn't believe it.
I was able to track it for a little while via the tile app, but it eventually stopped being available. Would have been such a cool story to get it back.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kiwis-on-a-mission-to-find-ele...
I was able to track it for a little while via the tile app, but it eventually stopped being available. Would have been such a cool story to get it back.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kiwis-on-a-mission-to-find-ele...
I bought something from a police auction aggregator business in Ontario once and when I went into the location to pick it up I got a chance to chat with the owner briefly.
I mentioned how many bikes I saw on hand, and he proudly told me that since his inception about 20 years ago he had auctioned off more than 1 MILLION stolen bicycles.
1 million stolen bikes, retrieved by police in Ontario alone in the past 20 years.
That's incredible.
Imagine how many bikes have been stolen and not recovered by the police.
I mentioned how many bikes I saw on hand, and he proudly told me that since his inception about 20 years ago he had auctioned off more than 1 MILLION stolen bicycles.
1 million stolen bikes, retrieved by police in Ontario alone in the past 20 years.
That's incredible.
Imagine how many bikes have been stolen and not recovered by the police.
>Where do stolen bikes go?
Law enforcement had more in one place than I ever saw.
Going to police auctions probably the thing they have the most of is recovered bikes that had never been returned to their owners.
And the buyers were regulars, many pawnbrokers who you could tell normally purchase continuously directly from thieves, picking them up super cheap in quantity whenever the cops do have them on offer.
And the cops completely aware the whole time.
At a different time, I was a theft victim from a music rehearsal space, where a guy left town with some of our nice gear when I was on vacation. Leaving behind some of his ratty things, but people figured out who he was right away, then found some pawn tickets and a couple were my items.
I went to that pawnshop and they had not loaned him much so I just bought them back. But there were two big speakers and one amp that I had no ticket for and a couple other guys were victims too. We made police reports with our serial numbers and the cops said they have a good relationship with the pawnbrokers and a very effective system to see if any recent loans were documented to these exact items. Everything was by the book.
One guy did get a speaker back that the cops found in a different pawnshop, but I kept checking for months and my stuff never turned up.
Until a couple years later when I got a call from a detective who wanted evidence on that same perpetrator in a more serious crime. Turned out the cops had my recovered amplifier for quite some time, and it was about to be auctioned off and surely he knew it would go cheap. But he wanted to know the original purchase prices so he could file enhanced charges needed to apprehend the thief immediately. I gave him the information and he faxed me the paperwork I needed to pick up my amp from their property department before the deadline. I was well aware that if this new violation had not come up, I would never have seen my amp again.
Never did find the speakers until a couple more years later I was watching a new band play at a local joint and sure enough, they had these uncommon series speakers right up front, and I discreetly checked them out and it was surely the ones my brother bought when he was a teenager and I had been deeply familiar with for years, with distinctive wear & tear. That I had faxed the original receipt to the cops that time.
But I decided not to say anything because it was a good band, and they were making better use of them than we would be doing by then. Plus they had replaced the horns with some more professional grade, these stout old boxes were sounding better than ever.
Law enforcement had more in one place than I ever saw.
Going to police auctions probably the thing they have the most of is recovered bikes that had never been returned to their owners.
And the buyers were regulars, many pawnbrokers who you could tell normally purchase continuously directly from thieves, picking them up super cheap in quantity whenever the cops do have them on offer.
And the cops completely aware the whole time.
At a different time, I was a theft victim from a music rehearsal space, where a guy left town with some of our nice gear when I was on vacation. Leaving behind some of his ratty things, but people figured out who he was right away, then found some pawn tickets and a couple were my items.
I went to that pawnshop and they had not loaned him much so I just bought them back. But there were two big speakers and one amp that I had no ticket for and a couple other guys were victims too. We made police reports with our serial numbers and the cops said they have a good relationship with the pawnbrokers and a very effective system to see if any recent loans were documented to these exact items. Everything was by the book.
One guy did get a speaker back that the cops found in a different pawnshop, but I kept checking for months and my stuff never turned up.
Until a couple years later when I got a call from a detective who wanted evidence on that same perpetrator in a more serious crime. Turned out the cops had my recovered amplifier for quite some time, and it was about to be auctioned off and surely he knew it would go cheap. But he wanted to know the original purchase prices so he could file enhanced charges needed to apprehend the thief immediately. I gave him the information and he faxed me the paperwork I needed to pick up my amp from their property department before the deadline. I was well aware that if this new violation had not come up, I would never have seen my amp again.
Never did find the speakers until a couple more years later I was watching a new band play at a local joint and sure enough, they had these uncommon series speakers right up front, and I discreetly checked them out and it was surely the ones my brother bought when he was a teenager and I had been deeply familiar with for years, with distinctive wear & tear. That I had faxed the original receipt to the cops that time.
But I decided not to say anything because it was a good band, and they were making better use of them than we would be doing by then. Plus they had replaced the horns with some more professional grade, these stout old boxes were sounding better than ever.
With the (hopefully) forthcoming ebike/escooter revolution, where you see china/netherlands small transportation/bicycle use in urban areas on a massive scale, the basic security issues of the bicycle-sized transport unit remain.
It's a problem so old, some of the first auteur films in cinema, "Bicycle Thief" was based on that problem.
If you can pick up something with your hands, how do you stop it from being so easily stolen?
The ebike battery provides power and weight for the personal transport vehicle to incorporate keys, trackers, and a bit more weight so it can't be moved with a single hand, but still, the issue is out there:
- we need embedded serial numbers in the major components (battery, frame)
- tracking / pinging that can be turned on for theft tracking like they did here
- removable batteries (recharge where you are, make the most valuable part of the e-vehicle more securable)
- integrated U-lock that isn't so effing annoying to use (cryptographic key on your phone) and isn't easily defeated by liquid nitrogen or other means
well, yeah, and make it cheap. I think there's a lot of opportunity for innovation in these platforms to solve/counter these age-old bicycle thief problems.
But a lot of it might be to get municipal policing policy to address them under the (flawed, but not totally) broken window theory. Take bicycle and ebike theft more seriously, it will help enable the transformation of cities in safety, use, convenience, and environmental efficiency.
It's a problem so old, some of the first auteur films in cinema, "Bicycle Thief" was based on that problem.
If you can pick up something with your hands, how do you stop it from being so easily stolen?
The ebike battery provides power and weight for the personal transport vehicle to incorporate keys, trackers, and a bit more weight so it can't be moved with a single hand, but still, the issue is out there:
- we need embedded serial numbers in the major components (battery, frame)
- tracking / pinging that can be turned on for theft tracking like they did here
- removable batteries (recharge where you are, make the most valuable part of the e-vehicle more securable)
- integrated U-lock that isn't so effing annoying to use (cryptographic key on your phone) and isn't easily defeated by liquid nitrogen or other means
well, yeah, and make it cheap. I think there's a lot of opportunity for innovation in these platforms to solve/counter these age-old bicycle thief problems.
But a lot of it might be to get municipal policing policy to address them under the (flawed, but not totally) broken window theory. Take bicycle and ebike theft more seriously, it will help enable the transformation of cities in safety, use, convenience, and environmental efficiency.
So my stolen bike went via Poland to the Ukraine's Lviv, where it was probably disassembled because the traces of the tracker are disappearing.
I saw a post recently about a bike stolen in Germany ended up in Khakrov.
In the summer of 1997, I was sitting in the center of Amsterdam enjoying the sunshine on a warm bright afternoon. I saw a man wearing a wooly jumper walk up to a bike rack, pull out a pair of bolt cutters, snip a lock and ride away.
When I passed through Amsterdam for the first time I recall looking at the many bikes at the bike racks and thinking how old fashioned they all looked, I think it is still the same now.
When I passed through Amsterdam for the first time I recall looking at the many bikes at the bike racks and thinking how old fashioned they all looked, I think it is still the same now.
There is something about the Venn diagram of this e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ business that is perfect (at least in Seattle). I need help summarizing it: low COGS/resale value of parts/utility to channel partners/favorable legal conditions/favorable government policy... I'm missing the buyer side of this equation, but it has to be seriously compelling.
In Seattle, they're on Craigslist. The thieves don't even bother to change the background of the photo (because heck, they don't need to!), but hey you can buy from a dealer who carries a wide variety of kids/road/mountain/etc.
I've definitely spent some time thinking about it, or did in college anyway.
There's a lot going on with the typical bike population on a college campus.
A fair amount of bikes get stolen on the way home from a party or whatever, and left in a shrubbery or whatever. These bikes tend to get picked up by the school and sold at the reuse store. Some bikes have probably done that loop more than once, especially because these bikes are often not so great, and the line between "stolen" and "community" blurs a bit.
Unregistered/expired bikes also end up in the reuse store, which is also pretty common.
There's a lot going on with the typical bike population on a college campus.
A fair amount of bikes get stolen on the way home from a party or whatever, and left in a shrubbery or whatever. These bikes tend to get picked up by the school and sold at the reuse store. Some bikes have probably done that loop more than once, especially because these bikes are often not so great, and the line between "stolen" and "community" blurs a bit.
Unregistered/expired bikes also end up in the reuse store, which is also pretty common.
I had my bikes stolen this year from Portland, OR. They were in Mexico on a craigslist like site within a week. Crazy crime rings happening now.
Police don't do anything and FBI isn't going to get involved.
Police don't do anything and FBI isn't going to get involved.
We bought two used bicycles in Amsterdam. Guy we bought it from looked a bit sketchy and had like 20-30 bikes in a spot near his home. Most of them were in pretty bad condition but we could pick the ones we liked. I had a strong suspicion that some of them could be stolen. But hey, they were priced at 30 euros not 100 like new ones. When we left Amsterdam few months later we sold them
(bit cheaper) to another couple of young probably tourists so they went back into the ecosystem.
They used something called a smarttag, not sure what that is.
But I wonder if one could put an RFID tag inside the frame some where ?
But I wonder if one could put an RFID tag inside the frame some where ?
And I wonder if you have a steel frame would that interfere with it ?RFID probably doesn't bring much, engraving is easier and is hard to remove without marks. About that, France has an official method of tagging bikes which has been mandatory on new bikes since jan 2021. See [0] for doc in English and [1] for a video.
[0]: https://www.bicycode.org/pages-1/Documents_PDF/plaquette__Bi...
[1]: https://www.bicycode.org/faire-marquer-son-velo.rub-2/le-mar...
[0]: https://www.bicycode.org/pages-1/Documents_PDF/plaquette__Bi...
[1]: https://www.bicycode.org/faire-marquer-son-velo.rub-2/le-mar...
Sounds like a gross expansion of government tracking power to make it mandatory. This is equivalent to license plates on cars, which is already used to track people around in many countries.
Yea, license plates... What an abhorrent government overreach! I wish they didn't exist, at least then hit and runs would finally skyrocket!
Most metals, as well as carbon fiber will interfere with reading an RFID tag. It's more likely one could be put on top of a bike frame and concealed by paint, or inside the seat than inside the frame.
High-end eMTB bikes that are stolen in western Europe end up here in eastern Europe, the usual retail price is around the 1000-3000 euro mark, that's less than half their original price for bikes in almost new condition.
There are dedicated organizations that do these runs across Europe, to keep a low profile a wan with only 4 bikes will cross the border at a time.
The profits must be good enough to keep selling the bikes at half the price and continue doing these runs.
There are dedicated organizations that do these runs across Europe, to keep a low profile a wan with only 4 bikes will cross the border at a time.
The profits must be good enough to keep selling the bikes at half the price and continue doing these runs.
Since police does nothing and reasonable protections can be fairly easily circumvented I think that the best approach to property theft is just budget it into you life. If the stuff you've got stolen of you since you were born are worth less than two times your last months salary than you are good. If not then ask yourself if you really earn enough to be buying such expensive things.
Why would you not pursue criminal investigation with this? Seems like a moral hazard, otherwise you're just funding criminals with government money
Now do American cities
french content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnuz2WIQU5I
some women tracked her bike (it was a bait helped by a gps device company) and they uncovered a road from france to northern africa, it goes real quick
some women tracked her bike (it was a bait helped by a gps device company) and they uncovered a road from france to northern africa, it goes real quick
I don't think we need to be shaming people for having equity emergencies. We can assume these bikes will be sold to fund self administered mental health treatment, food, rent, or college.
One of the reasons I bought a Brompton folding bike is so that I can take it with me instead of leaving it locked up.
I’ve had funny looks from bored security guards but so far it’s always worked.
I’ve had funny looks from bored security guards but so far it’s always worked.
This would have been my guess, as someone who has had a couple of bikes stolen and has also bought a couple of used bikes.
I did not read the article. I do know that stolen bikes, when I was a kid, was auctioned off by the local police.
Sweden, Uppsala, Main station... or at least thats how it looked like last time i visited
Stolen bikes go to Vancouver's downtown east side. Trust me, I know this.
Based on volume, I'd guess the UC Davis campus...
[deleted]
To Casablanca, Morocco.
For all who are up in arms about police not doing their job. It is almost always the same crowd, that boo the officers for doing their job when they have to use force.
Guess people are afraid to go in rough neighborhood to retrieve their own property and police is not coming with them because they know they will have to use force to get job done. And when they actually use force, everyone including those whose property is stolen go up in arms, how can you do use that force? That is the simple reason police does not care. In cities like Baltimore and Minneapolis they even ignore shootings and murder because of woke agenda in the city as they know they will be punished for doing their jobs.
Well, may this be a lesson for those whose property is stolen and those who are shocked by no response from police, that going in rough parts of town and meeting criminals does not go very well with please and thankyou. You should be ready and willing to use force which most of the times is necessary.
Guess people are afraid to go in rough neighborhood to retrieve their own property and police is not coming with them because they know they will have to use force to get job done. And when they actually use force, everyone including those whose property is stolen go up in arms, how can you do use that force? That is the simple reason police does not care. In cities like Baltimore and Minneapolis they even ignore shootings and murder because of woke agenda in the city as they know they will be punished for doing their jobs.
Well, may this be a lesson for those whose property is stolen and those who are shocked by no response from police, that going in rough parts of town and meeting criminals does not go very well with please and thankyou. You should be ready and willing to use force which most of the times is necessary.
> It is almost always the same crowd, that boo the officers for doing their job when they have to use force.
I disagree, and think it’s quite telling that you feel this way. Most people I know would love for the police to do their job and use the force that they and only they are authorised to use (here in Aus) to retrieve stolen private property. But they don’t. Best they’ll do is file a report so you can claim it on insurance if you’re lucky enough to have it.
I disagree, and think it’s quite telling that you feel this way. Most people I know would love for the police to do their job and use the force that they and only they are authorised to use (here in Aus) to retrieve stolen private property. But they don’t. Best they’ll do is file a report so you can claim it on insurance if you’re lucky enough to have it.
They used to produce monthly videos of bike recovery operations, though it looks like they've stopped the videos so you'll have to scroll past a few years of promo videos: https://www.youtube.com/@vanmoof
Often they recover the bike from a yard / homeless camp / shop with 100s of other non-VanMoof bikes they leave behind. It would be so easy to crack down on organised bike theft. The financial, social, and environmental costs of securing bikes and recovering from a theft is huge.