Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street lights (2018)(electronics360.globalspec.com)
electronics360.globalspec.com
Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street lights (2018)
https://electronics360.globalspec.com/article/11940/dutch-town-becomes-first-to-install-bat-friendly-red-led-street-lights
183 comments
> I haven't see these red LEDs become widespread although
That's because they aren't always needed. Only very specific spots pose a real danger.
This location has them since 2015 (even 2014 I thought): https://www.autoblog.nl/nieuws/automobilisten-in-de-war-door... (in Dutch), location on OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51.34859&mlon=3.54388#ma...
Everybody complained at first, now it's just a curiosity. The bats thrive though and don't get killed near the roundabout. The lights don't need to be everywhere and only on the spots where the bats fly over regularly and get hurt by traffic and/or the environment (by which I mean the stuff related to the road, called Straatmeubulair in Dutch).
That's because they aren't always needed. Only very specific spots pose a real danger.
This location has them since 2015 (even 2014 I thought): https://www.autoblog.nl/nieuws/automobilisten-in-de-war-door... (in Dutch), location on OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51.34859&mlon=3.54388#ma...
Everybody complained at first, now it's just a curiosity. The bats thrive though and don't get killed near the roundabout. The lights don't need to be everywhere and only on the spots where the bats fly over regularly and get hurt by traffic and/or the environment (by which I mean the stuff related to the road, called Straatmeubulair in Dutch).
Heh, that part of Zeeland is referred to as Belgium by my friend from Zeeland (from near Goes). Thanks for linking it though. We were at vacation in Zeeland last summer and I wondered if we missed this (I think it would been cool to go there if its not far from route), but we were nowhere near there. I guess we didn't go to Belgium ;)
Zeeuws-Vlaanderen exists for a reason, no? ;-)
Unrelated to bat lights, but a friend of mine who is having a house built in Utrecht mentions that all the homes in the new neighborhood will have integrated bat housing. I assume he means something like the "bat bricks" from https://www.ibstockbrick.co.uk/kevington/eco-products/.
>attach a bat home to your house
Never knew these were a thing but it's exactly what I expected. Deserves a bat signal.
Never knew these were a thing but it's exactly what I expected. Deserves a bat signal.
We built one into the gable end of our roof during renovation:
https://imgur.io/Gc42NPn?r
(and added appropriately bat-wing shaped bargeboards)
(and added appropriately bat-wing shaped bargeboards)
That’s a very pretty house! What country do you live if I can ask and is this a common theme?
Thanks! We live in London. Quite a few properties around in this style.
This is Edwardian, built around 1902.
This is Edwardian, built around 1902.
Do bat houses require any kind of cleaning/maintenance?
I asked this of our bat expert friend. Apparently not. The droppings, of which there won't be many for a small house, are quite dry and will naturally fall out of the opening.
Great. Thank you for following up.
I think they look pretty cool too: https://www.themayor.eu/uploads/image/file/1031/medium_batst...
Looks like something out of a horror movie.
Does remind me of the old low-pressure sodium street lighting that was popular in the UK when I was growing up. They’d glow pink for a while when they first turned on, before turning a deep orange.
Does remind me of the old low-pressure sodium street lighting that was popular in the UK when I was growing up. They’d glow pink for a while when they first turned on, before turning a deep orange.
They're still around here in Poland. I don't think they get installed anymore, but where they still work fine they're still there.
I love them. That's the best night-time lightning out there. Blueish LED lightning is unsettling in comparison. These orange street lights are comfortable to eyes and make the streets look pretty.
I love them. That's the best night-time lightning out there. Blueish LED lightning is unsettling in comparison. These orange street lights are comfortable to eyes and make the streets look pretty.
Love the sodium lights. The white LEDs here have a blinding spectrum, also are installed so they glare straight into your eyes. Insane.
big positive of the LED lights is much less light pollution, but I do wish they could be warmer
Sodium light is actually pretty great from light pollution perspective, because it is extremely easy to filter it out, as it is a very narrow band. Astronomers prefer sodium lamps, for example.
Dead moths prefer sodium lamps too, or something. Currently, LEDs are kind of stupid, too. The parking lot outside my home has fixtures with builtin LEDs which will last, like forever. So there's no need to make the LEDs replaceable like a bulb had to be.
Except they do break (they dim into a faint glow, and the brown out completely) and they have to replace the whole fixture.
Except they do break (they dim into a faint glow, and the brown out completely) and they have to replace the whole fixture.
> Dead moths prefer sodium lamps too, or something.
Isn't that just because it is very hot so they die?
> Except they do break (they dim into a faint glow, and the brown out completely) and they have to replace the whole fixture.
That's the big lie of LED industry; we can make ones lasting 50-100k hours... except we won't cos that would put price up by a bit and get out-competed.
Isn't that just because it is very hot so they die?
> Except they do break (they dim into a faint glow, and the brown out completely) and they have to replace the whole fixture.
That's the big lie of LED industry; we can make ones lasting 50-100k hours... except we won't cos that would put price up by a bit and get out-competed.
It's exactly the other way around. Now I'm afraid this is some kind of common misconception, like "not only are LEDs great when it comes to efficiency, they don't pollute the light either!"
The ones around here direct the light downwards at the street instead of almost-every-direction like the old ones did, so it's kind-of true that the LED ones have less light pollution (I know I'm getting a hell of a lot less light into my windows), but it's because of the lamp shape and not that they're LEDs.
yes this was my observation, since the ones outside my house were replaced I have much less light into my house and I can see the stars. I assumed it must be some factor of the LED design that makes it easier to direct downwards though
For astronomy, the pollution upwards is the problem.
For insects and mammals and birds, it's the spectrum, the colour, which is the problem.
For insects and mammals and birds, it's the spectrum, the colour, which is the problem.
Here it's the other way around. The new shapes are bonkers.
It's not really true that they pollute less. One thing that has happened due to their "lower power and longer life" is that they are being installed in a lot of places where they aren't needed.
Where I live, the city decided in the downtown core to wrap non-diffused non-rectified LEDs around the poles in spirals. What this means is that if you're walking or driving, you are looking directly at the light as opposed to a traditional fixture that is pointed downward and may also have a cover.
Where I live, the city decided in the downtown core to wrap non-diffused non-rectified LEDs around the poles in spirals. What this means is that if you're walking or driving, you are looking directly at the light as opposed to a traditional fixture that is pointed downward and may also have a cover.
One of the reasons my wife and I moved to the country is because there is so much LED lighting everywhere that the sky glows white at night. Our neighbors have also taken to competing with each other to see who can install the brightest spotlights around our city house. One guy installed a 15000 lumen flood in his driveway which was lighting up our bedroom at night through the blinds.
I really think we're going to have to ban certain forms of exterior lighting or nobody is going to be sleeping well.
I really think we're going to have to ban certain forms of exterior lighting or nobody is going to be sleeping well.
My mother told me that a neighbour across the street from her that we know installed a light like that because he was paranoid that people were going to break into his car at night or something. It's been changed to a different less-bright light. She thinks another neighbour must have complained. The new one is still on most of the night but it's not as bright. I think it's ridiculous. If someone is going to go into your car, a light isn't going to stop them and in fact, might even discourage people from looking if it's too bright.
These new LEDs are just trash. Some houses, you see them stuffed in a foot apart all around the soffits on multiple levels and when you walk at night they just make the place look cheap and tacky compared to how it used to be before when people would place an incandescent flood at ground level shining upward.
Would have been amusing if you mounted an adjustable mirror on the wall near your window to aim the high-power beam straight back at their own window if talking to them first didn't work. Seems fair. It doesn't need to be pointed directly at you after all.. when it could be pointed at the driveway instead..
These new LEDs are just trash. Some houses, you see them stuffed in a foot apart all around the soffits on multiple levels and when you walk at night they just make the place look cheap and tacky compared to how it used to be before when people would place an incandescent flood at ground level shining upward.
Would have been amusing if you mounted an adjustable mirror on the wall near your window to aim the high-power beam straight back at their own window if talking to them first didn't work. Seems fair. It doesn't need to be pointed directly at you after all.. when it could be pointed at the driveway instead..
We had those in the USA as well. If you kicked the pole hard enough you could make it go out for a few minutes.
the light they produced was the best and I wish we still used them, or at least an LED that mimics the orange color.
the light they produced was the best and I wish we still used them, or at least an LED that mimics the orange color.
I have such a core memory of reading in the back of the car by the yellow sodium lights that take the colours out of everything. They're really efficient even by modern standards but the bulbs need replacement much more often than LEDs and they aren't made in the UK any more so they're an expensive niche import.
I definitely prefer the warm yellow sodium glow to the harsh 'operating table white' LEDs a lot of councils replaced them with but I think they're finally getting the message now because by the time they got round to my street they used much better warm white LEDs to replace the sodium lights.
I definitely prefer the warm yellow sodium glow to the harsh 'operating table white' LEDs a lot of councils replaced them with but I think they're finally getting the message now because by the time they got round to my street they used much better warm white LEDs to replace the sodium lights.
It looks more Cyberpunk to me. The red/blue contrast is nice IMO.
There are some of these red lights near my parents house (in the UK), and driving through them did definitely give off a ye olde low pressure sodium vibe, albeit a bit redder.
I think sodium lights are more pleasant than red light district themed street lighting.
They were common in the Netherlands like 15 years ago.
They do but they don't look very effective for actually lighting stuff up
Love the name of the file "_PR.jpg". That's all it is.
it looks like if i walk down that road i’m going to get beaten up by batman.
Cool but very weak
It's really all you need for eg walking the dog at night. I've only seen them used on streets where cars are very rare especially in the evening.
Not enough in dangerous areas though and no city would choose different lamps based on violence statistics (or they would have to admit certain areas are worse to the wider population that never checks statistics).
Yes they're only used in suitable areas.
I wonder if it is partially made up for by the redness of the light. Red light doesn’t mess up your night vision, right?
Correct. It also doesn't interfere with peoples' sleep, which is why it's polite to use the red LED on your headlamp when walking through a campsite at night.
Unfortunatly cheap led floodlights have made too many houseowners think they need to light up every tree and wall from below for the entire night. In some streets you could turn of the municipal streetlights entirely and not see a difference.
Thank god the energy prices are increasing. I'm only half joking.
This would have worked, if people were still using incandescent bulbs. Now it only takes a couple of watt to ruin the darkness.
I don't understand why red light is not the default for night lighting and street lamps and maybe even car headlights. Red light allows you to see while still maintaining your night vision. Blue or white or whatever other color you use will ruin your night vision and only allows you to see what is decently illuminated and anything outside that zone becomes invisible.
Technology connections (youtube channel) did a video about this. There was a trade-off between night vision and circadian rythm disruption vs driver safety.
Cooler light is better at keeping people awake and alert, and people drive safer when they are alert. Given that car accidents are a major cause od death, that is a hard point to compromise on.
Cooler light is better at keeping people awake and alert, and people drive safer when they are alert. Given that car accidents are a major cause od death, that is a hard point to compromise on.
The blue tint disrupts your sleep cycle and helps keep you awake when driving at night. There's definitely a trade off to be had depending on where these lights are located though.
Red is also really low contrast, at least at non-night-vision destroying lumen levels.
It's not really the "blue" part. It's the "forcing yourself to be awake when you shouldn't be" part that disrupts your sleep cycle. Driving at night when you should be in bed is so much more the problem than whatever color the light is. For you as human at least =)
That's the point -- the blue is to help break the cycle further and keep you awake, when your body insists otherwise!
says what evidence? it's pretty much been debunked for a long time, and the whole premise is apparently based on bad science. I'm pretty sure i read an article here on hn that showed that this whole blue light scare was based on old science with extremely limited sample sizes and extreme exposure. i tried to link to an article from 2016 that still says that it affects sleep because i hastily read the first part. trying to dig up the article i read seems to be hard, but at least I'm still pretty sure that the science is not settled on the matter at all.
earlier posted article https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-debunking-digital-eye...
earlier posted article https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-debunking-digital-eye...
Do you always link to articles supporting your opponents view? (Hint: read the last section of the article)
If you're referring to melatonin then the science really isn't that clear. Most light suppresses melatonin production.
One of the biggest arguments against blue light (specifically) being disruptive is that the sky spectrum in the evening is also blue (so naturally you'd be exposed to it). Modern airliners use blue lights for overnight flights with red lights at "dawn". I suspect screen brightness is more of an issue than any particular colour.
One of the biggest arguments against blue light (specifically) being disruptive is that the sky spectrum in the evening is also blue (so naturally you'd be exposed to it). Modern airliners use blue lights for overnight flights with red lights at "dawn". I suspect screen brightness is more of an issue than any particular colour.
The dynamic range of the eye is confusing for aspects like this.
The amount of blue light you're exposed to from the night sky is trivial. Outdoors on a moonless night is 0.002 lux (of which, my understanding, about half is airglow and fairly blueish).
Compare to a not-too-bright single blue LED in your bedroom, emitting 0.5 lumens. You could spread that over 2000 square feet of surfaces and still have more blue light around than comes from the night sky.
The amount of blue light you're exposed to from the night sky is trivial. Outdoors on a moonless night is 0.002 lux (of which, my understanding, about half is airglow and fairly blueish).
Compare to a not-too-bright single blue LED in your bedroom, emitting 0.5 lumens. You could spread that over 2000 square feet of surfaces and still have more blue light around than comes from the night sky.
Lux != lumen. Lux is lumen per unit area.
> Lux != lumen. Lux is lumen per unit area.
Yes... that is why I divided by area.
It's kind of sad how many of us end up so impatient over common mistakes that we screw up just as badly in our eagerness to snap at people.
Obviously it's fudged a bit. The LED is not an isotropic emitter, and it's not at the center of a spherical room with perfectly reflective walls.
In practice, I suspect the amount of blue illumination from one dim blue LED in a large bedroom and the night sky are pretty much equal.
Yes... that is why I divided by area.
It's kind of sad how many of us end up so impatient over common mistakes that we screw up just as badly in our eagerness to snap at people.
Obviously it's fudged a bit. The LED is not an isotropic emitter, and it's not at the center of a spherical room with perfectly reflective walls.
In practice, I suspect the amount of blue illumination from one dim blue LED in a large bedroom and the night sky are pretty much equal.
Isn't that what they are saying? 0.5 lumen spread out over 2000 sq feet is still more lux than the night sky?
I'm not referring to anything. I just found it hilarious that the guy, to whom I replied, linked an article which contradicted himself.
I have no stance on this. I don't even care. I can sleep well at night.
I have no stance on this. I don't even care. I can sleep well at night.
touche..
The US Navy agrees with you, and is one of the reasons why interior lighting in ships/subs is red during battle so you can quickly switch between daylight and red without eye adjustment. Plus it looks cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1R2UK3OTA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1R2UK3OTA
Yeah I have red LED lighting in my boats for night lighting and also use the red light almost exclusively on my headlamp at night when camping, to maintain my night vision.
Our eyes are the least sensitive to it so it requires more light (which means more overall brightness, which actually makes your night vision worse and limits visibility of everything not lit, because your iris closes more) and it provides poor visibility/contrast and no color vision.
The only advantage red light offers is not disrupting your circadian rhythm.
Airplane instrument panels are lit with white. Saab, Volvo, and plenty of others use white or nearly white light for their dashboards.
Blue is used in theater only because it is less noticeable to the audience when it spills or reflects somewhere it shouldn't.
The real question is: especially with even 10 year old car headlights being so much better than the utter trash car headlights were 30 or more years ago, why are we still wasting so much energy, and impacting wildlife, and hurting millions of people's circadian rhythms, blasting streets with light all night?
There isn't even any argument in terms of public safety; there's never been any proof that lighting reduces crime. Lack of lighting forces people up to no good doing things where they shouldn't be, to use lights themselves - which stands out much, much more than someone doing something they shouldn't be under outdoor floodlights.
The only advantage red light offers is not disrupting your circadian rhythm.
Airplane instrument panels are lit with white. Saab, Volvo, and plenty of others use white or nearly white light for their dashboards.
Blue is used in theater only because it is less noticeable to the audience when it spills or reflects somewhere it shouldn't.
The real question is: especially with even 10 year old car headlights being so much better than the utter trash car headlights were 30 or more years ago, why are we still wasting so much energy, and impacting wildlife, and hurting millions of people's circadian rhythms, blasting streets with light all night?
There isn't even any argument in terms of public safety; there's never been any proof that lighting reduces crime. Lack of lighting forces people up to no good doing things where they shouldn't be, to use lights themselves - which stands out much, much more than someone doing something they shouldn't be under outdoor floodlights.
> why are we still wasting so much energy, and impacting wildlife, and hurting millions of people's circadian rhythms, blasting streets with light all night?
For pedestrians?
(I agree with your reasoning as it applies to highways, but most of the world's light pollution from overhead street lighting comes from lighting done either 1. within dense cities, or 2. within industrial complexes — in both cases to aid people walking around outside at night.)
For pedestrians?
(I agree with your reasoning as it applies to highways, but most of the world's light pollution from overhead street lighting comes from lighting done either 1. within dense cities, or 2. within industrial complexes — in both cases to aid people walking around outside at night.)
As a pedestrian, I'd be much happier with a LOT LESS light at night. Though I have to admit that the overhead street lights aren't my biggest concerns (except for the newer awful white/blue LEDs). Car headlights are what really piss me off. Heck, even tail lights can blind me at night.
Bright night time lighting is often installed here as "security lighting". Meaning the bright light is primarily there to make people uncomfortable and not commit crimes.
The pink-orange glow of sodium bulbs was so nice and inviting compared to all these daylight blue parking lot projectors. I wish I lived somewhere where outdoor lighting needed a permit and the issuing authority rejected everything above X lumens or Y color temperature.
I actually find that my visibility on highways is worse for the parts that are illuminated by streetlights than for the parts that are only illuminated by my car.
I've found for example that it's extremely dangerous to go beyond 180kmh (110 mph) at night whenever there are street lights, while it's sort of ok if you just have side mirrors on the highway reflecting your own lights (not that I recommend to anyone to drive at such high speeds, especially in low visibility conditions).
I've found for example that it's extremely dangerous to go beyond 180kmh (110 mph) at night whenever there are street lights, while it's sort of ok if you just have side mirrors on the highway reflecting your own lights (not that I recommend to anyone to drive at such high speeds, especially in low visibility conditions).
> Our eyes are the least sensitive to it so it requires more light (which means more overall brightness, which actually makes your night vision worse and limits visibility of everything not lit, because your iris closes more) and it provides poor visibility/contrast and no color vision.
This does not match very common naval practices, nor my experiences. I believe the underlying mechanism is that the iris responds much more strongly to blue light because that is more prevalent in daylight. Specifically this is about using red light to shine on things to see them. I could imagine that has very different requirements from the color of text on a HUD.
This does not match very common naval practices, nor my experiences. I believe the underlying mechanism is that the iris responds much more strongly to blue light because that is more prevalent in daylight. Specifically this is about using red light to shine on things to see them. I could imagine that has very different requirements from the color of text on a HUD.
With red headlights you may see better, but other drivers (and pedestrians) are going to have a harder time seeing you, especially in daytime rain, which is half of their purpose.
Use a red flashlight (or filter) if you need to find stuff in a dark room without waking up the occupants.
Use a red flashlight (or filter) if you need to find stuff in a dark room without waking up the occupants.
And you'd be mad to put one at the front of your bicycle. In poor conditions, most any car driver would logically think the rider is travelling away from them.
(There are quite a few mad people in this world, having said that).
(There are quite a few mad people in this world, having said that).
> In poor conditions, most any car driver would logically think the rider is travelling away from them.
I usually can't ride backward fast enough for that to happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift
I usually can't ride backward fast enough for that to happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift
The Netherlands has many streets that are designed as "low car" streets or "bike first" streets.
The white lights are important for road safety but the Dutch have developed methods of softly discouraging the kind of traffic that makes the road dangerous.
This is especially common in residential areas. Most town centres are pedestrianized but retain brighter lighting as they can still be quite busy public areas in the evening.
The white lights are important for road safety but the Dutch have developed methods of softly discouraging the kind of traffic that makes the road dangerous.
This is especially common in residential areas. Most town centres are pedestrianized but retain brighter lighting as they can still be quite busy public areas in the evening.
> will ruin your night vision
But it takes about 45 minutes for your eyes to fully adapt to darkness.
So if we were to use red lighting at a level of illumination that assumes fully adapted eyes, it means people won't have sufficient brightneses for the first 45 minutes of their drive, which is likely most of it.
But it takes about 45 minutes for your eyes to fully adapt to darkness.
So if we were to use red lighting at a level of illumination that assumes fully adapted eyes, it means people won't have sufficient brightneses for the first 45 minutes of their drive, which is likely most of it.
I only know that I adapt in about 5min. I read books in fbreader on a black bg and red text. The backlight can be very low in that app, depending on the phone you can read with an almost black screen. I start at 50% in five min I can it down to 10%.
Adaptation begins immediately but takes much longer to reach its full extent.
Go out on a very dark night and look up at the stars sometime. After half an hour, you'll be able to see stars that you couldn't see fifteen minutes ago.
Go out on a very dark night and look up at the stars sometime. After half an hour, you'll be able to see stars that you couldn't see fifteen minutes ago.
Why don't we default to the color of the moon? 4000k?
Stop signs will be the same color as everything else.
Jokes on you, there aren't any* STOP signs in the Netherlands!
* Okay they do exist but they are extremely rare. I know of exactly 1 within 10km of my home.
* Okay they do exist but they are extremely rare. I know of exactly 1 within 10km of my home.
The color used to be red (almost) before all the eco-commies started conning us all with point light source LEDs.
A whole new meaning for "the red light district", eh Amsterdam? ;D
A member of Bunschotens Christian Workers Party complained about the bright red lights on top of wind turbines. They called it a "big red brothel".
After a €100.000 investment they now have a radar+transponder system that shuts the lights off when there isn't an airplane nearby.
After a €100.000 investment they now have a radar+transponder system that shuts the lights off when there isn't an airplane nearby.
If they think there's no airplane nearby. A light works every time, for any flying vehicle regardless of transponders on planes being enabled for example.
TIL there actually is a “Christian Workers Party” in the Netherlands but it only operates in Bunschoten
It is very typical for municipalities to have political parties that only operate locally.
The Christelijke Arbeiders Partij was founded in 1956 for the Bunschoten municipal elections. At the time the only people that could be elected were tradespeople, fishermen and farmers. Workers were put in unelectable positions by the elite. The CAP was founded out of dissatisfaction with this.
The Christelijke Arbeiders Partij was founded in 1956 for the Bunschoten municipal elections. At the time the only people that could be elected were tradespeople, fishermen and farmers. Workers were put in unelectable positions by the elite. The CAP was founded out of dissatisfaction with this.
Sure but these days most of them are called stuff like "Bunschoten Vooruit" or "Dorpsbelang Spakenburg", not "Christian Labourers Party" right :)
Mandatory soon in Germany as well.
I think it's already mandatory for new wind turbines, and there is a grace period for older ones.
Source [German]: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Beschlusskammern/1_GZ/BK...
Source [German]: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Beschlusskammern/1_GZ/BK...
Maybe there will be outdoor red window boxes for rent.
It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking customers.
Perhaps outdoor lighting would offer more warning.
It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking customers.
Perhaps outdoor lighting would offer more warning.
Your comment reads like you've never been to amsterdam if you think you randomly turn a corner and this happens without any awareness that you're in the only few streets where they are.
Do you get disconcerted when you go to the beach or when you turn a corner and see a picture of a lady in a bikini in a storefront?
Do you get disconcerted when you go to the beach or when you turn a corner and see a picture of a lady in a bikini in a storefront?
> It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking customers.
Well, to be fair, it's not really widespread all around the city, it's not like you suddenly turn a corner and there is a surprise box right in front of you.
Well, to be fair, it's not really widespread all around the city, it's not like you suddenly turn a corner and there is a surprise box right in front of you.
Street lights without motion sensors on side streets are a waste of electricity and a source of light pollution.
Some people actually argue it's good for safety and particularly reducing crime, but you won't catch me agreeing with this motivation. I'll bet there is some curb appeal/property value angle, too. People seem eager to abandon reason when it comes to their home equity.
Darkness is camoflauge, and diminishes situational awareness of victims.
It doesn't inherently stop crime, but you and potential witnesses will indisputably have an easier time taking a shitty photo/identifying an assailant after the fact given ambient lighting.
It doesn't inherently stop crime, but you and potential witnesses will indisputably have an easier time taking a shitty photo/identifying an assailant after the fact given ambient lighting.
Yeah, I just feel there are better things to be done to address crime than ramping up light pollution. It gives me a similar feeling to those anti-homeless bench designs; an attack on the local symptom which avoids addressing the underlying issue.
So what better than motion-detector lights? It'll highlight any motion!
San Jose, CA has/had low pressure sodium lights to reduce light pollution for the benefit of Lick Observatory on Mt. Hamilton since at least the early 1980's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory
It's not to reduce light pollution, it's to have all the light pollution be in an exceptionally narrow band that the observatory can then filter out.
The reason LED lights are so terrible for astronomers is because although they require much less light to achieve the same visibility, the spectrum is very spread out across multiple peaks, with different manufacturers having different peaks.
The reason LED lights are so terrible for astronomers is because although they require much less light to achieve the same visibility, the spectrum is very spread out across multiple peaks, with different manufacturers having different peaks.
Single color LEDs are also monochromatic. If they ever need to replace the low pressure sodium lights they could switch to yellow or orange LEDs.
Human-friendly too. Avoiding bright and cool-colored lighting at night is a must for decent sleep.
Bats are a big reservoir for human diseases. Examples include rabies, possibly Covid, and potentially Ebola and other hemorrhagic fevers.
Are we sure it is a good idea to encourage bats to be in close proximity to humans?
Are we sure it is a good idea to encourage bats to be in close proximity to humans?
The upsides far outweigh the risks. Bats are very good at pest control and even help with dispersing seeds and pollinating plants. My favourite feature of theirs is that they take care of all the mosquitos so no need to buy or use repellent.
> My favourite feature of theirs is that they take care of all the mosquitos so no need to buy or use repellent.
I am not so sure about that. I don’t think bats are either necessary or sufficient for effective malaria control. In parts of the world where there are bats, you still have a problem with mosquito borne illnesses such as malaria.
I am not so sure about that. I don’t think bats are either necessary or sufficient for effective malaria control. In parts of the world where there are bats, you still have a problem with mosquito borne illnesses such as malaria.
> The upsides far outweigh the risks.
You can't be serious. A disease that originated in bats just killed 15-25 million people and shut the entire world down for two years.
> My favourite feature of theirs is that they take care of all the mosquitos
I live in a place where bats abound, and I can assure you that they don't.
You can't be serious. A disease that originated in bats just killed 15-25 million people and shut the entire world down for two years.
> My favourite feature of theirs is that they take care of all the mosquitos
I live in a place where bats abound, and I can assure you that they don't.
Malaria still kills half a million people each year, and has been doing so for centuries. Then there's Dengue fever, West-Nile virus and Zika. I'd say the scales are tipped in favour of keeping around some of those mosquito-killing bats.
Sometimes it's best to just kill out a species so we can be a tiny bit safer!
> You can't be serious. A disease that originated in bats just killed 15-25 million people and shut the entire world down for two years.
Maybe someone should not have eaten them?
Or maybe let’s extend your logic to humans, see how easy it works?
Maybe someone should not have eaten them?
Or maybe let’s extend your logic to humans, see how easy it works?
I have a hope that over the next 20-40 so years, we see extensive commercialization of digital night vision (not the crap you get on amazon, but the solid-state version of high-voltage IITs that the military is currently testing), flat lenses, and AR glasses, such that we get to a point where acceptable-quality night vision is as ubiquitous as acceptable-quality cameras are now on smartphones.
One of the big upsides of such an outcome would be that we could ditch things like streetlights entirely, cutting back a great deal of light pollution.
One of the big upsides of such an outcome would be that we could ditch things like streetlights entirely, cutting back a great deal of light pollution.
These are also used on a highway close to Rotterdam (also The Netherlands). They are only used over a stretch of maybe 100m, but leaves a gap for bats to fly through.
Here are some images, unfortunately the article isn't available in English:
https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/nieuws/archief/2020/12/vleerm...
Here are some images, unfortunately the article isn't available in English:
https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/nieuws/archief/2020/12/vleerm...
Yikes isn't this a nightmare for some colorblind people as the red light will not be clearly visible or provide much contrast for what they see?
That's not how red-green color blindness works.
They are still able to perceive illumination from red lights. They just can't distinguish its hue from green as well as others.
They are still able to perceive illumination from red lights. They just can't distinguish its hue from green as well as others.
Right which is why I say it will screw with their contrast.
I say this because someone I know who is colorblind can't use a red headlamp when outdoors. A lot of people use red lights to preserve their night vision, but for this person they can't see clearly with it vs. a white light.
I say this because someone I know who is colorblind can't use a red headlamp when outdoors. A lot of people use red lights to preserve their night vision, but for this person they can't see clearly with it vs. a white light.
Didn’t know this before either, but it seems a common type of colorblindness, protanopia, results from a general insensitivity to red light and also hinders distinguishing between reds and blacks.
https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/types-...
Small nitpick, I think people use red headlamps to preserve other peoples night vision not their own. Or am I getting that wrong? Wouldn't white light work just as well or even better for for one’s own "vision at night"?
https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/types-...
Small nitpick, I think people use red headlamps to preserve other peoples night vision not their own. Or am I getting that wrong? Wouldn't white light work just as well or even better for for one’s own "vision at night"?
No, red headlamps help the wearer too. Red light triggers less of an adaptation [1] response than other hues relative to the amount of useful illumination they provide. Red light lets us perceive our surroundings, but doesn't trigger our eyes to close the pupils and become less sensitive to the incoming light.
(Blue has the opposite effect, which is why a room lit only by blue light can feel both dim [hard to see] and harsh [unpleasantly bright] at the same time.)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)
(Blue has the opposite effect, which is why a room lit only by blue light can feel both dim [hard to see] and harsh [unpleasantly bright] at the same time.)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)
Not unless there's a specific type of blindness I'm unaware of. Color blindness only impacts color perception, not perception of luminosity, AFAIK.
You're correct, and the other responses saying otherwise are misinformed. Protanopes do not have long-wavelength cones and thus have reduced sensitivity to that end of the visible spectrum, i.e., red light appears dimmer to such individuals. This is also why red on black (or vice versa) is a color combination with poor accessibility, since it has reduced contrast for protanopes as the red appears darker and thus closer to black.
Good thinking, but this isn't how colorblindness works.
Alrighty but the color blind person I know says otherwise and can't use red headlamps...
How does this compare to sodium-vapor lamps?
Side note: I recently learned that all of the blue/purple street lights are actually defective LEDs: https://www.businessinsider.com/led-city-streetlights-turnin...
Side note: I recently learned that all of the blue/purple street lights are actually defective LEDs: https://www.businessinsider.com/led-city-streetlights-turnin...
Interesting, but does red lighting not have a different physiological or psychological impact on humans?
Beneficial for human night vision while not being materially detrimental (wrt physiological or psychological impact).
https://www.healthline.com/health/why-not-to-have-red-lights...
https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2075/does-red-li...
https://www.healthline.com/health/why-not-to-have-red-lights...
https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2075/does-red-li...
This is looking forward to the day when bats and machines will peacefully coexist bathed in red light.
This would actually be an awesome movie plot. Town adopts red lighting, Dracula moves there, a string of grisly murders ensues, corrupt town bureaucrats refuse to get rid of the red LEDs despite mounting evidence, nightvision/flamethrower-equipped mechs needed to roast out the vampires. Well I guess its not peaceful coexistence.
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More or less the plot of Fallen London
I spent months underwater on a submarine and we used mostly red lights in the sleeping quarters and the control room. I don't know the theory, but I figured red lights don't produce the momentary blindness of looking at a white light.
Red light doesn't overlap as much with the sensitivity of the rod cells in our eyes which are responsible for night vision (see https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1416_Color_Sensiti...)
It would be nice to get an update from the submitter or some other friendly soul -- are they still used, what reactions and outcomes have they had?
My cousin lives in that village, I will need to ask about it. I lived very close by, let me ask it.
If the initiative was discontinued, it hasn't been in the news: https://news.google.com/search?q=Zuidhoek-Nieuwkoop
I did that search on Google (not limited to "news") before adding my question, I saw stories dated 2019 and 2022 that were almost identical, but the headline on the latter suggested the system "would" (future tense) be installed.
I found a webcam, but the night shots were black & white so not much use.
I found a webcam, but the night shots were black & white so not much use.
Asked my cousin, it's a very small village from Nieuwkoop, Nieuwkoop is bigger and is a really small village compared to anything else.
Red lights are still there, according to my cousin.
Nieuwkoop is a village and local authority.
Red lights are still there, according to my cousin.
Nieuwkoop is a village and local authority.
Seems like something Austin would do, but anti-grackle* lighting would be a better use of funds.
*Grackles are small corvids that are fearless, loud, and annoying.
*Grackles are small corvids that are fearless, loud, and annoying.
" Despite a currently robust population, a recent study by the National Audubon Society of data from the Christmas Bird Count indicated that populations had declined by 61% to a population of 73 million from historic highs of over 190 million birds.[12] As a result, it is now classified by the IUCN as Near Threatened."
Kavinsky should move there.
One of those things that happens when your country is too rich and peaceful.
For now. History is a bitch and never forgives frivolity of late stage empires.
The Netherlands isn’t an empire.
Not any more, true.
Pretty sure isles in Indonesia recall the heel of the Dutch East Indies Spice empire.
Pretty sure isles in Indonesia recall the heel of the Dutch East Indies Spice empire.
The whole west is just a big imperialistic blob my friend.
Bat friendly, human hostile. Not a great trade-off.
I hope my town does it too.
How is it human hostile?
Why human hostile?
You can't go out at 2 a.m., stand under a streetlight and read a horror novel written in bat blood ink, like you used to.
But that's the point!
But that's the point!
Check out the picture in the article. Good luck using that to see by.
I don't see a problem with them. I find it quite pleasant.
Have you seen one in real life before drawing hasty conclusions?
You think only people who travel to a small town in the Netherlands can have opinions about red lights for illumination?
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Reminds me of windmill, they kill lots of bats & birds.
If we are working on an environment friendly energy alternative, it feel sweird it kills lots of animals.
If we are working on an environment friendly energy alternative, it feel sweird it kills lots of animals.
Do you believe that the aviation lights on the turbines is what's killing the birds, as opposed to the other parts of the structure? such as the spinny blade bit?
nah I don't mean the lights, I just mean the general effect of technology we use and not always aware of the side effects. I never hear it as an argument against a windpark
The moon is white. White is the most natural color of light at night. White street lights are probably the most natural approximation.
The article doesn't say anything about white light, but does say "Normal street lighting can affect a bat’s flight" but doesn't go into detail. I would love more detail.
The article doesn't say anything about white light, but does say "Normal street lighting can affect a bat’s flight" but doesn't go into detail. I would love more detail.
The intensity of a street light is vastly higher. They typically produce 10x-100x more foot-candles versus a full moon on a clear night at a bright latitude.
Even under ideal conditions, the earth receives ≤1 lumen per square meter of light from the moon. A single streetlight can project tens of thousands of lumens (or more) over a relatively small area.
Even under ideal conditions, the earth receives ≤1 lumen per square meter of light from the moon. A single streetlight can project tens of thousands of lumens (or more) over a relatively small area.
10x-100x more foot-candles
How much is that in torched libraries of Congress?
How much is that in torched libraries of Congress?
Presumably having white light would also not be harmful assuming it's as dim as the moon. Which, don't get me wrong, can get surprisingly luminous, but not when compared to street lighting.
> The moon is white. White is the most natural color of light at night. White street lights are probably the most natural approximation.
You say "white" as if there's only one color white, which isn't the case when you're talking about a range of lighting temperatures. The moon also has a unique light profile that it reflects. It's not the definition of white. Either way, if you're advocating for something resembling 6500k daylight white lighting at night, there is nothing at all natural about that. The moon casts a very dim light, even at its brightest.
You say "white" as if there's only one color white, which isn't the case when you're talking about a range of lighting temperatures. The moon also has a unique light profile that it reflects. It's not the definition of white. Either way, if you're advocating for something resembling 6500k daylight white lighting at night, there is nothing at all natural about that. The moon casts a very dim light, even at its brightest.
I would advocate for 4000k.
4000K is too high imo. In France the maximum is 3000K for example. For some cases (natural parks, building illumination etc) the limit can be lower 2700K or 2400K.
https://www.darksky.org/france-light-pollution-law-2018/
https://www.darksky.org/france-light-pollution-law-2018/
The moon has a temperature, and it is 4000k.
Definitely not the most natural approximation for the number of moons.
Sounds like a marketing ‘puff piece’ to me. Here, accept this ‘fact’ about red lights, unsubstantiated by any details or references as truth. And you’re going to like it because it supposedly is environmentally friendly. And because it ‘feels good’ you won’t ask any questions and repeat it to friends and family as if it were truth.
What are you talking about? People exploring nature at night have been using red lights for decades. It's standard equipment.
There's no mystery around the reason to use red light either. Nocturnal animals, especially mammals, have far more rods than cones in their eyes. This means they are much more sensitive to brightness than they are to color.
Red light in practice is far less bright than white light for the same input energy (a bit more complicated than this) and for quite a few animals they may not see it at all or very poorly.
None of this is theorizing, the effect can be readily seen in practice.
There's no mystery around the reason to use red light either. Nocturnal animals, especially mammals, have far more rods than cones in their eyes. This means they are much more sensitive to brightness than they are to color.
Red light in practice is far less bright than white light for the same input energy (a bit more complicated than this) and for quite a few animals they may not see it at all or very poorly.
None of this is theorizing, the effect can be readily seen in practice.
The intensity of moon light is on an entirely different level than street lights.
Another interesting regulation here is related to insulation. Small bats tend to get inside walls and under roof tops. As people are improving insulation en masse, this act may kill or displace these bats. So you have to check for them and make amends if they're there. A common and easy way is to attach a bat home to your house. Some of them are really cool:
https://media.s-bol.com/gJJMmEXxPyRr/781x1200.jpg
I love my little bat friends. During summer months I can time their forage session to the minute. Then I just watch them circle around the garden picking up the mosquitos.