No Screens Cafe(cmart.blog)
cmart.blog
No Screens Cafe
https://cmart.blog/no-screens-cafe/
126 comments
This really escalated quickly. From a cozy, stress free environment to "we killed God" and "cars kill people and cities". Quite the roller coaster.
Too bad. If it were a laid back place to meet people and have interesting discussions, it might have been worth checking out.
Too bad. If it were a laid back place to meet people and have interesting discussions, it might have been worth checking out.
Those sound like good objections to discuss at the No Screens Cafe.
I'd rather do it here from home because if we're being sanctimonious I'd be opposed to giving them any funds that further their goals, no matter to what degree.
How is such a stance not itself sanctimonious?
Open dialogue is the only way to change what you perceive to be the issue here - either by correcting misconceptions about the original intent or providing perspective to the originator of what otherwise sounds like a pretty good idea.
Ironically, this kind of refusal to engage because of perceived imperfections that somehow nullify all else is really the kind of unhealthy thinking that is most amplified in modern online discourse and arguably leads to posts like this one.
Growth is a collective process, and doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
Open dialogue is the only way to change what you perceive to be the issue here - either by correcting misconceptions about the original intent or providing perspective to the originator of what otherwise sounds like a pretty good idea.
Ironically, this kind of refusal to engage because of perceived imperfections that somehow nullify all else is really the kind of unhealthy thinking that is most amplified in modern online discourse and arguably leads to posts like this one.
Growth is a collective process, and doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
> How is such a stance not itself sanctimonious?
It is and acknowledges itself as such.
It is and acknowledges itself as such.
Can you please point out where the post judges people for using screens? I see "don't use screens here", which isn't a judgment of people who use screens, it's just a rule.
Your statement, however, is very judgemental. Especially of a place you have never been and appear to have decided to never visit. For clarity, here's what I consider the harshest judgemental part you posted: "Can you imagine the conversations you'd find yourself in at this place, given this is how the "owner" sees the world?"
Finally, I'm pretty sure the original article is some sort of creative prose or story, given the rest of the cmart site. If so, then its appears to have illicited strong reactions, which may be a sort of success in itself.
Finally, I'm pretty sure the original article is some sort of creative prose or story, given the rest of the cmart site. If so, then its appears to have illicited strong reactions, which may be a sort of success in itself.
>Can you please point out where the post judges people for using screens?
yes, right here:
> . . You can listen to your inner voice, your fellow patrons, and the birds outside. Maybe you’ll have some new ideas.
and don't tell me that's not judging, this is a no judgement space, just remain silent and reflect on what I'm pointing out, and maybe you'll have some new ideas.
(just wanted to make sure you can hear the air of superiority that the cafe has)
yes, right here:
> . . You can listen to your inner voice, your fellow patrons, and the birds outside. Maybe you’ll have some new ideas.
and don't tell me that's not judging, this is a no judgement space, just remain silent and reflect on what I'm pointing out, and maybe you'll have some new ideas.
(just wanted to make sure you can hear the air of superiority that the cafe has)
Right there with you. I simultaneously love my smartphone and everything it has enabled for me and billions of fellow humans, _and_ frequently advocate for taking breaks from it to interact with real people for a change.
A (clearly hypothetical in this case) cafe where screens are banned seems like a perfect place to do that. But I would hate for it to be at a place that is this aggressive.
A (clearly hypothetical in this case) cafe where screens are banned seems like a perfect place to do that. But I would hate for it to be at a place that is this aggressive.
It's light-hearted/snarky/humorous/satirical. You're reading it completely straight-laced which is not the authorial intent. Surely the joke about buses and "we killed God" was a hint?
Ageed, it is a though experiment with a sardonic bent, nothing else.
> The No Screens Cafe accepts cash only.
This is very strange. Maybe this would work in USA(?) but in many countries you're basically telling an overwhelming majority of your potential customers "you can't pay for things here". No one carries cash - it's all EFTPOS or CC. I don't see how cash-only supports the no screens policy. It feels entirely orthogonal.
Same goes for the weird anti-car crusade. If you don't have parking, that's fine. No need to make it a thing.
This is very strange. Maybe this would work in USA(?) but in many countries you're basically telling an overwhelming majority of your potential customers "you can't pay for things here". No one carries cash - it's all EFTPOS or CC. I don't see how cash-only supports the no screens policy. It feels entirely orthogonal.
Same goes for the weird anti-car crusade. If you don't have parking, that's fine. No need to make it a thing.
We would accept cards, but all the payment terminals have a screen. We looked into getting an imprinter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter) but they're especially vulnerable to fraud, and most cards don't work with them anymore because they aren't embossed.
If you can't pay with cash, you're welcome to wash a load of dishes.
If you can't pay with cash, you're welcome to wash a load of dishes.
> We would accept cards, but all the payment terminals have a screen.
Well this sticking to the rules no matter what is where you lose my sympathy. This is like TSA agressively checking toddlers and old grannies for making the scanner go beep or having some water, because, hey, if the scanner beeps they might be terrorists.
Just like screens are a new thing, this inflexible robot-like-behavior is also new, and geez, I wish you could also fight the second one.
Sure payment terminals are screens, but it's not like they're addictive screens where you get tweets or text messages...
Well this sticking to the rules no matter what is where you lose my sympathy. This is like TSA agressively checking toddlers and old grannies for making the scanner go beep or having some water, because, hey, if the scanner beeps they might be terrorists.
Just like screens are a new thing, this inflexible robot-like-behavior is also new, and geez, I wish you could also fight the second one.
Sure payment terminals are screens, but it's not like they're addictive screens where you get tweets or text messages...
> Well this sticking to the rules no matter what is where you lose my sympathy
Cash-only places are less common than they used to be, but there are still some really popular places to eat near me. And they’re popular for a good reason: they provide excellent food/service, and delivery services can’t insert themselves into the business model. It means I have to pass an ATM that day, but it’s a perfectly viable model.
If I’m going to a place called no screens cafe, I’d personally appreciate the complete commitment to the endeavor. If nothing else, it’s an invitation to ponder the frictionless ways we part with our money almost everywhere else.
Comparing “cash only” to “aggressive TSA” seems like a rather stretched analogy.
Cash-only places are less common than they used to be, but there are still some really popular places to eat near me. And they’re popular for a good reason: they provide excellent food/service, and delivery services can’t insert themselves into the business model. It means I have to pass an ATM that day, but it’s a perfectly viable model.
If I’m going to a place called no screens cafe, I’d personally appreciate the complete commitment to the endeavor. If nothing else, it’s an invitation to ponder the frictionless ways we part with our money almost everywhere else.
Comparing “cash only” to “aggressive TSA” seems like a rather stretched analogy.
It's cash only because pay terminals have screens, and his inflexible TSA-like adherence to the rules don't allow screens.
Imagine a potential patron to this (afaik still hypothetical) cafe has a hypothetical medical device attached to her that has a monitoring screen. Should she be allowed in, or not? Cut-and-dry no, easy enough, right? Who needs to be flexible?
OP's idea of no screens is so people aren't glued to digital entertainment, it's not like a pay terminal screen (or a medical device's status display) is digital entertainment..
Imagine a potential patron to this (afaik still hypothetical) cafe has a hypothetical medical device attached to her that has a monitoring screen. Should she be allowed in, or not? Cut-and-dry no, easy enough, right? Who needs to be flexible?
OP's idea of no screens is so people aren't glued to digital entertainment, it's not like a pay terminal screen (or a medical device's status display) is digital entertainment..
I would frequent such a place for one of the same reasons I go camping. To fully disconnect from technology and to experience an environment entirely devoid of digital devices. A return to the current moment.
Such a place may not be for everyone and to me that seems fine. Camping is also not for everyone and that is also fine.
A cash only stance makes sense because paying for things will happen all day, every day. If your goal is no screens and that goal is in your name, that’s an impactful step to take.
If someone has a hypothetical medical device with a screen (do you have one in mind?) I’m sure the owners of such an establishment would seek to find ways to accommodate. It’s an edge case and not likely to impact the overall atmosphere.
But to your point, this is hypothetical. I’d rather that such a place exists and then learns how to deal with edge cases than not exist at all.
Such a place may not be for everyone and to me that seems fine. Camping is also not for everyone and that is also fine.
A cash only stance makes sense because paying for things will happen all day, every day. If your goal is no screens and that goal is in your name, that’s an impactful step to take.
If someone has a hypothetical medical device with a screen (do you have one in mind?) I’m sure the owners of such an establishment would seek to find ways to accommodate. It’s an edge case and not likely to impact the overall atmosphere.
But to your point, this is hypothetical. I’d rather that such a place exists and then learns how to deal with edge cases than not exist at all.
> If someone has a hypothetical medical device with a screen (do you have one in mind?) I’m sure the owners of such an establishment would seek to find ways to accommodate. It’s an edge case and not likely to impact the overall atmosphere.
I have a relative who has heart rhythm anomalies that uses an iWatch with an upgraded band (Kardia) for monitoring.
Prior to that it was a smart phone that had some ekg sensors that did a phone home/hospital if there were any anomalous readings and reporting periodic summaries (there was an occasional anomaly that was detected in an unrelated hospital stay but they didn't know how frequently this anomaly occurred - 1/week its a "be aware and continue to monitor" to 1/hour its a "go to the hospital and have some surgery - but it has to be done while the nerve is doing its thing").
The thing is that smart watches and phones are being used for real time monitoring of medal issues and they have screens.
Or even for a less problematic situation, I have my iWatch set to alert me if the decibel level is above a threshold. While a cafe is less likely to get above that level this is still something that I pay attention to and have occasionally found that a pub that I go to can get louder than I had otherwise realized.
I have a relative who has heart rhythm anomalies that uses an iWatch with an upgraded band (Kardia) for monitoring.
Prior to that it was a smart phone that had some ekg sensors that did a phone home/hospital if there were any anomalous readings and reporting periodic summaries (there was an occasional anomaly that was detected in an unrelated hospital stay but they didn't know how frequently this anomaly occurred - 1/week its a "be aware and continue to monitor" to 1/hour its a "go to the hospital and have some surgery - but it has to be done while the nerve is doing its thing").
The thing is that smart watches and phones are being used for real time monitoring of medal issues and they have screens.
Or even for a less problematic situation, I have my iWatch set to alert me if the decibel level is above a threshold. While a cafe is less likely to get above that level this is still something that I pay attention to and have occasionally found that a pub that I go to can get louder than I had otherwise realized.
> If someone has a hypothetical medical device with a screen (do you have one in mind?) I’m sure the owners of such an establishment would seek to find ways to accommodate. It’s an edge case and not likely to impact the overall atmosphere.
Yep. I agree we should accommodate medically necessary exceptions. Also, anyone can step out of the cafe to use their screen (medically necessary or not) at any time.
Yep. I agree we should accommodate medically necessary exceptions. Also, anyone can step out of the cafe to use their screen (medically necessary or not) at any time.
> To fully disconnect from technology.
I feel like there are still compromises. Especially for a cafe. Did you walk to the camp site, or drive 95% of the way there? This cafe will probably have electricity and clean tap water and machines to heat up the water and make coffee. Sure someone else might attempt an even more Amish cafe (even some Amish use electricity, AFAIK), or one run by a hippie might avoid having a microwave because they think microwave-heated-food are as harmful as nuclear radiation.
Honestly if he wants to make it cash only with the excuse that digital payments are so painless you don't even notice your spending, I could sign on to that. But if it's because "pay terminals have screens", then that's a level of zealotry that I'd be wary of. Imagine if he can only get microwaves with LCD screens for his cafe, so they have to work around that as well...
I feel like there are still compromises. Especially for a cafe. Did you walk to the camp site, or drive 95% of the way there? This cafe will probably have electricity and clean tap water and machines to heat up the water and make coffee. Sure someone else might attempt an even more Amish cafe (even some Amish use electricity, AFAIK), or one run by a hippie might avoid having a microwave because they think microwave-heated-food are as harmful as nuclear radiation.
Honestly if he wants to make it cash only with the excuse that digital payments are so painless you don't even notice your spending, I could sign on to that. But if it's because "pay terminals have screens", then that's a level of zealotry that I'd be wary of. Imagine if he can only get microwaves with LCD screens for his cafe, so they have to work around that as well...
It doesn't exist (yet) but pair this https://www.amazon.com/Digi-1st-Counter-Digital-Mechanical/d... with a paper notification (behind plexi) and some green/red leds, and a raspberry pi and you could have a screen-less card reader.
Cash only is very common at a lot of places in the US. It's sort of a thing that signifies quality and affordability. Pretty much all of them have an ATM so it's not really a big deal. It's much faster and places that can make it with those policies are obviously worth visiting.
Those kinds of hole-in-the-wall places in New Zealand are overwhelmingly more like to have a "no cash" policy.
Pretty much all of them have an ATM so it's not really a big deal.
This one won’t, because guess what ATMs have? A screen. Somewhere on this page is the “owner” commenting that they’d take cards, but all of the terminals have…a screen.
This one won’t, because guess what ATMs have? A screen. Somewhere on this page is the “owner” commenting that they’d take cards, but all of the terminals have…a screen.
How is it faster? And why does it signify quality and affordability?
"Here's your bill."
"Ok, here's my money."
Or you just leave money on the table and go.
There's no messing with cards or paper and signing. The back and forth etc.
That goes like triple for bars where you just hand over money vs, asking to open or close and putting it in the computer etc.
Quality because they are so good they don't need to do worry about alternative forms of payment.
Affordability because the price is the price, no fees and they are making so much money they aren't worried about maximizing tickets and table time metrics and all that.
It's definitely not going to be a corporate establishment. The owner is probably in the business and they want it to be good because that's where they eat.
"Ok, here's my money."
Or you just leave money on the table and go.
There's no messing with cards or paper and signing. The back and forth etc.
That goes like triple for bars where you just hand over money vs, asking to open or close and putting it in the computer etc.
Quality because they are so good they don't need to do worry about alternative forms of payment.
Affordability because the price is the price, no fees and they are making so much money they aren't worried about maximizing tickets and table time metrics and all that.
It's definitely not going to be a corporate establishment. The owner is probably in the business and they want it to be good because that's where they eat.
At least in my experience, I think the perception of quality comes from the fact that these places are the kinds of places that just never modernized beyond cash because they’re already good enough to always be busy or past capacity. There is no incentive to modernize because doing so would not increase business, and not doing so does not decrease business enough to matter.
One of the best things about the cash only places I frequent is that they don’t have to deal with delivery services injecting themselves into the business model and consuming kitchen capacity for people not actually present.
This leads to faster service overall and at worst the speed of service slows down proportionally to the number of customers at the location at any given point.
And usually these places are family run so you’re always seeing the same folks behind the counter and they actually care.
All combined, these factors lead to the elevated status that many ascribe to cash only places.
One of the best things about the cash only places I frequent is that they don’t have to deal with delivery services injecting themselves into the business model and consuming kitchen capacity for people not actually present.
This leads to faster service overall and at worst the speed of service slows down proportionally to the number of customers at the location at any given point.
And usually these places are family run so you’re always seeing the same folks behind the counter and they actually care.
All combined, these factors lead to the elevated status that many ascribe to cash only places.
Hmm I've noticed the delivery service thing at times.
But my perception of business's that don't take card these days (post pandemic at least) is that they're more likely to be slightly dodgy and skimming the books. That or stubbornly stuck in there ways.
But my perception of business's that don't take card these days (post pandemic at least) is that they're more likely to be slightly dodgy and skimming the books. That or stubbornly stuck in there ways.
It was the same in Germany when I visited about 10 years ago. Wonder if it's changed?
MUCH faster. A consistent order or magnitude at least, in my experience.
Seems like it is in the USA, if it exists, and mentions it's in a city. It's a pretentious enough idea that it might actually work in a US city.
The business of a cafe is all about identity. The food and drink and service? Once a certain bar of "good enough" is taken any further difference beyond won't make a decisive difference and that good enough bar isn't all that high (I wouldn't be able to run a cafe but plenty of people are). The rest is all in some way about identity. (Hopefully, and edit:) not in terms of who your ancestors were, but in terms of what cafes you like. From slick, perfectly interchangeable interior design showrooms to that hamster cafe in Fleabag, it's all about trying to make a certain slice of the audience feel that "yeah, I totally see myself going to a place like that" connection. If it works, that is if that audience not only exists in sufficient numbers but is also underserved, they did the right thing.
Note that they aren't suggesting that people set cars on fire or anything like that, just that people who aren't physically addicted to cars might feel more are home than others.
Note that they aren't suggesting that people set cars on fire or anything like that, just that people who aren't physically addicted to cars might feel more are home than others.
> - The No Screens Cafe accepts cash only.
Welcome to Germany ...
Welcome to Germany ...
I think it is an exercise in creative writing rather than a description of an actual business. Lots of business models work better inside our heads.
I can see wanting to rant about cars, they are pretty bad in terms of polluting and killing people (which are objectively pretty bad characteristics, whether or not we’ve looked at the trade offs and decided to get one anyway).
I can see wanting to rant about cars, they are pretty bad in terms of polluting and killing people (which are objectively pretty bad characteristics, whether or not we’ve looked at the trade offs and decided to get one anyway).
This is easily done, in Bermuda Rock Island Cafe is cash only but you can also have an account with them that is run on file cards that you can top up. Since their coffee is the best coffee on the island no one minds the extra hassle.
but you can also have an account with them that is run on file cards that you can top up.
Is that file card a thing that the customers carry with them?
Because: Other businesses could begin accepting those same file cards, and the idea will become even more popular and successful and then… oh…
Is that file card a thing that the customers carry with them?
Because: Other businesses could begin accepting those same file cards, and the idea will become even more popular and successful and then… oh…
No the file cards stay at the shop. Since it's a balance written in felt tip pen it would probably be a little too easy to cheat ...
Cash only isn't unheard of. I carry a little bit with me. But it's pretty rare for something like a cafe, restaurant, etc. and I expect a lot of people don't carry cash especially if they just stick a few cards on the back of their phones.
That said, I'm pretty sure this is just an exercise in imagining a very retro sort of establishment. I have a lot of trouble imagining a place like this working.
That said, I'm pretty sure this is just an exercise in imagining a very retro sort of establishment. I have a lot of trouble imagining a place like this working.
Yeah, definitely isn't totally unheard of. A restaurant and barbershop near me are both cash only.
Pretty much all card readers use a screen, even if it is just a cheap green one.
You could design one without, which would be interesting, but good luck integrating with the major cc companies.
You could design one without, which would be interesting, but good luck integrating with the major cc companies.
Getting a mag strip reader (MSR) isn't hard and a USB can be found for under $20.
So you read out the tracks and get the data.
You would need to input the amount. Keypad and 7 segment display should work there. While smart watches aren't ok, I suspect that the some electrical cash register is acceptable... and then...
Wait a moment, if they've got an electric cash register they've got the ability to have a MSR.
Anyways, let's assume that the 7 segment display for input of the amount is acceptable. If not... Nixie tubes?
Once the amount to charge is entered, and the card is swiped through the MSR, a receipt printer with the result is used (though they might have issues about that since thermal paper receipts often have BPA https://www.pca.state.mn.us/business-with-us/bpa-and-bps-in-... )
Anyways, result of the transaction through whatever payment processor happens and is sent back to the pi (no screen) that then prints out the result.
Sending credit card number to a payment processor from a MSR is no more difficult than sending it to the same processor from hand entered (for example, online). You might have a higher fee rate, but it's not difficult.
So you read out the tracks and get the data.
You would need to input the amount. Keypad and 7 segment display should work there. While smart watches aren't ok, I suspect that the some electrical cash register is acceptable... and then...
Wait a moment, if they've got an electric cash register they've got the ability to have a MSR.
Anyways, let's assume that the 7 segment display for input of the amount is acceptable. If not... Nixie tubes?
Once the amount to charge is entered, and the card is swiped through the MSR, a receipt printer with the result is used (though they might have issues about that since thermal paper receipts often have BPA https://www.pca.state.mn.us/business-with-us/bpa-and-bps-in-... )
Anyways, result of the transaction through whatever payment processor happens and is sent back to the pi (no screen) that then prints out the result.
Sending credit card number to a payment processor from a MSR is no more difficult than sending it to the same processor from hand entered (for example, online). You might have a higher fee rate, but it's not difficult.
In the EU this isn't allowed any more, any in person transactions need to be done with Chip and PIN or NFC.
Wouldn't it do just to hook it up to an online processor, as if a web page?
Hmm, possibly but I am thinking there are some certification requirements e.g. and you have to be able to use some API whether that is hypermedia or otherwise, which again credit card companies must agree to let you use.
You could maybe bypass them with a third party API, I'd have to do my research to see what the gotchas might be though.
You could maybe bypass them with a third party API, I'd have to do my research to see what the gotchas might be though.
I wonder if there are some issuers out there who still have some active legacy backoffice process for processing transactions with carbon copies from imprinter machines
Very very high percent of US is in card. But very rare not to also accept cash, it’s not an insignificant percent of people.
> E-book readers are screens, sorry. You’re welcome to read a regular book. We have whole shelves of them.
I switched to e-books 12+ years ago, and I can't read regular books anymore. First, I need to find really good light (like direct sun light on a sunny day). Otherwise my eyes become tired quickly. Second, the book has to have a good paper quality (cheap greyish paper diminishes contrast). Third, the font should be large enough again not to strain the eyes. Fourth, regular book is heavier, I can't hold it with one hand, so end up sitting in uncomfortable positions (hello lumbar back pain, fellow readers). Fifth, I have utmost respect to paper books (parents had a library, so I grew up between books), and I have to wash my hands and dry them perfectly before I touch a paper book. I don't feel comfortable eating a croissant and read a paper book.
Not to mention that it's just not always possible to find or buy book you want, especially in a reasonable time.
Paper books are also screens in a way. Just with a user-controlled refresh rate (turn the page), and predefined images.
I switched to e-books 12+ years ago, and I can't read regular books anymore. First, I need to find really good light (like direct sun light on a sunny day). Otherwise my eyes become tired quickly. Second, the book has to have a good paper quality (cheap greyish paper diminishes contrast). Third, the font should be large enough again not to strain the eyes. Fourth, regular book is heavier, I can't hold it with one hand, so end up sitting in uncomfortable positions (hello lumbar back pain, fellow readers). Fifth, I have utmost respect to paper books (parents had a library, so I grew up between books), and I have to wash my hands and dry them perfectly before I touch a paper book. I don't feel comfortable eating a croissant and read a paper book.
Not to mention that it's just not always possible to find or buy book you want, especially in a reasonable time.
Paper books are also screens in a way. Just with a user-controlled refresh rate (turn the page), and predefined images.
I understand and empathize. At the same time, we had to draw the line somewhere clear and simple. Maybe when No Screens Cafe goes out of business (as other commenters are predicting), we will open "No Screens Except E-Book Readers (And No, Your Phone is Not an E-Book Reader) Cafe".
Sorry if my comment did sound dismissive of the idea of No Screens Cafe. It's kinda opposite. I'm doing my own "no screens cafe" regularly. Just today, I left my phone and iPad at home, grabbed some snacks and water, an e-reader, and went to the forest nearby on a bike just to sit and read the book for a few hours.
The reason for me is simple – gadgets and online presence wreak havoc on an ability to focus and concentrate. I miss childhood days when I could get lost in a book for a good half a day.
So this "no e-books" policy kinda ruined the analogy for me (I would love to have such a cafe nearby, but where I can read). But I get that it's not that easy to tell if it's a tablet or an e-book, and many e-books have browsers and the internet and a full-fledged Linux box inside, so there is no easy way to draw a line.
What's the broader idea behind No Screens Cafe? The article does a good job of describing the rules but not explaining the reasoning behind them.
The reason for me is simple – gadgets and online presence wreak havoc on an ability to focus and concentrate. I miss childhood days when I could get lost in a book for a good half a day.
So this "no e-books" policy kinda ruined the analogy for me (I would love to have such a cafe nearby, but where I can read). But I get that it's not that easy to tell if it's a tablet or an e-book, and many e-books have browsers and the internet and a full-fledged Linux box inside, so there is no easy way to draw a line.
What's the broader idea behind No Screens Cafe? The article does a good job of describing the rules but not explaining the reasoning behind them.
> Sorry if my comment did sound dismissive of the idea of No Screens Cafe
It's all good, kind stranger.
> Just today, I [...] just to sit and read the book
That sounds wonderful!
> What's the broader idea behind No Screens Cafe?
It's the same idea behind what you did today. We have this surveillance-capitalist, engagement-hacked, infinitely-scrolling, always-on infotainment economy. It delivers info-drugs which hijack our motivation and reward system. (The drugs are getting stronger: Facebook was heroin, now Tiktok is fentanyl.) With access to these, it's hard to engage in other relaxing, enriching activities like books and conversation. We can create a refuge for these other activities, but the refuge needs to exclude the info-drug delivery mechanisms (mostly screens).
When writing the post, I was thinking that Uncle Jeff (Bezos) has root access to a lot of people's e-book readers. These gadgets deliver advertising, spy on their users, and sometimes act against the users' own interest (by e.g. revoking access to paid-for books that Amazon loses their license to distribute). You can also gaze at the internet on an e-book reader, so I thought these devices probably don't belong at No Screens Cafe.
Give me a shout if you ever find yourself in Tucson AZ. It would be fun to talk.
It's all good, kind stranger.
> Just today, I [...] just to sit and read the book
That sounds wonderful!
> What's the broader idea behind No Screens Cafe?
It's the same idea behind what you did today. We have this surveillance-capitalist, engagement-hacked, infinitely-scrolling, always-on infotainment economy. It delivers info-drugs which hijack our motivation and reward system. (The drugs are getting stronger: Facebook was heroin, now Tiktok is fentanyl.) With access to these, it's hard to engage in other relaxing, enriching activities like books and conversation. We can create a refuge for these other activities, but the refuge needs to exclude the info-drug delivery mechanisms (mostly screens).
When writing the post, I was thinking that Uncle Jeff (Bezos) has root access to a lot of people's e-book readers. These gadgets deliver advertising, spy on their users, and sometimes act against the users' own interest (by e.g. revoking access to paid-for books that Amazon loses their license to distribute). You can also gaze at the internet on an e-book reader, so I thought these devices probably don't belong at No Screens Cafe.
Give me a shout if you ever find yourself in Tucson AZ. It would be fun to talk.
Just go the no non-e-ink-screens cafe.
sounds like you should probably only go to the no screens cafe if you want to do something other than read a book
There are plenty of cafes and bars all over the world where people hang out, chat, socialize. They all operate just fine without any of these written rules or the judgmental and pretentious attitude of the author.
I find more and more that people who write these daily "technology is killing the world", "people don't talk to each other these days" posts are the ones who are most addicted to their screens and looking for a way out. I can sympathize, but online rants aren't going to fix your problems. Shut your computer and phone, step out of your house and go start a conversation with someone. You can do it at your neighborhood coffee shop right now, and I can guarantee you will make new friends in minutes.
I find more and more that people who write these daily "technology is killing the world", "people don't talk to each other these days" posts are the ones who are most addicted to their screens and looking for a way out. I can sympathize, but online rants aren't going to fix your problems. Shut your computer and phone, step out of your house and go start a conversation with someone. You can do it at your neighborhood coffee shop right now, and I can guarantee you will make new friends in minutes.
it's not that screens literally kill us and this hypothetical cafe is saving your life, it's just that they wanted a unique experience and this rule provides it. if you don't want a unique cafe experience then a different location is probably the best option
I am not sure this place exists - if they do there is no website.
I like the concept, practically banning phones would be hard. Other commenters are saying there would be no traffic, but actually when this sort of thing has been tried in past businesses have experienced boosts in sales.
No parking would be a bit difficult, but I guess you could put it in a highrise or off of a bike trail, which would be fantastic.
Lack of cars isn't really judgey, they do both pollute and make noise, plus you do end up with safety issues and ugly tar roads. They don't say never drive them, just they aren't going to make it easy for you.
Which in the USA would make things difficult as nearly everything requires a car and so nobody is used to walking so few people do even if they might otherwise do so.
I like the concept - I do agree the no credit card thing is a bit much - if you could design a screen less card reader (led status lights and rotary number displays), that would make I perfect IMO.
I like the concept, practically banning phones would be hard. Other commenters are saying there would be no traffic, but actually when this sort of thing has been tried in past businesses have experienced boosts in sales.
No parking would be a bit difficult, but I guess you could put it in a highrise or off of a bike trail, which would be fantastic.
Lack of cars isn't really judgey, they do both pollute and make noise, plus you do end up with safety issues and ugly tar roads. They don't say never drive them, just they aren't going to make it easy for you.
Which in the USA would make things difficult as nearly everything requires a car and so nobody is used to walking so few people do even if they might otherwise do so.
I like the concept - I do agree the no credit card thing is a bit much - if you could design a screen less card reader (led status lights and rotary number displays), that would make I perfect IMO.
I've seen screenless "tap to pay" thingies before, so it is possible. https://www.rogers.com/business/blog/en/tapping-into-the-dem...
Doesn't Exist Wish Fulfillment Rant That You Posted Online Cafe
I mean, I get that HN covers a wide range of interests, and I love that.
But, let's be clear: this is a juvenile rant, at best. It's not an actual cafe. It doesn't propose anything actually workable. It shows no curiosity around the change of culture that occured, or what a change back would look like, just judgment. There's no commitment to building anything real. The writing is subpar.
Is that really "gratifying intellectual curiosity" in any way?
But, let's be clear: this is a juvenile rant, at best. It's not an actual cafe. It doesn't propose anything actually workable. It shows no curiosity around the change of culture that occured, or what a change back would look like, just judgment. There's no commitment to building anything real. The writing is subpar.
Is that really "gratifying intellectual curiosity" in any way?
Except everyone has a phone and carries it with them all the time. Someone gets a text or call from their kid during school hours, but has to leave to check it. Your spouse texts, but you're halfway through a scone, so you need to take your food on the road to find out whether they need something. It's just oppressive absolutism; eliminating a critical part of people's everyday lives (even for folks who would find respite in a break from screens) to the point of banning digital payments is not doing anything to create a safe space. It's creating an ideal, not a friendly place.
What's to stop someone who carries a phone from turning it off before entering the cafe? You can read those texts later.
Because people wouldn't. A lot of people will argue that they need to be reachable at all times if it's at all possible. And of course the general expectation is that I can go out and about even though I know someone may need to reach me.
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Nothing. You could leave it at home, too. But that's not the point. We live in an age where, arguably, we all feel safer because we're able to contact loved ones immediately. Visiting this hypothetical cafe implies that we also eliminate our ability to receive and respond to time-sensitive messages. That's perhaps a luxury, but it's a luxury that we rely on.
If my home security system tells me that it heard broken glass, I want to know now, not in thirty minutes. If my kid needs to be picked up from school, I want to know now. If my spouse's employer calls to tell me they've been sent to the hospital, I want to know now. Anyone with a job that requires them to be reachable for emergencies (like an emergency responder on their lunch break) cannot attend this cafe. In today's society, it's a luxury to have no responsibilities to anyone such that you aren't reachable for hours at a time.
It's wild to think of a place that would be exclusionary of parents, caregivers, partners, and more simply because of an absolutist policy. And you've got to be carrying cash. And of course, there's no ATM because that would have a screen. For a huge swath of the population, this is simply a non-starter.
If my home security system tells me that it heard broken glass, I want to know now, not in thirty minutes. If my kid needs to be picked up from school, I want to know now. If my spouse's employer calls to tell me they've been sent to the hospital, I want to know now. Anyone with a job that requires them to be reachable for emergencies (like an emergency responder on their lunch break) cannot attend this cafe. In today's society, it's a luxury to have no responsibilities to anyone such that you aren't reachable for hours at a time.
It's wild to think of a place that would be exclusionary of parents, caregivers, partners, and more simply because of an absolutist policy. And you've got to be carrying cash. And of course, there's no ATM because that would have a screen. For a huge swath of the population, this is simply a non-starter.
In today's society, it's a luxury to have no responsibilities to anyone such that you aren't reachable for hours at a time.
Luxury? For a large swath of the population, that’s called “a job”. From nurses to factory workers, many aren’t allowed to carry a phone when they go to work.
But, man, this idea that the leash can’t be cut for even thirty minutes to enjoy a coffee is indicative of other problems, IMO. Just because one can constantly be reachable doesn’t mean one should. Which is…kinda the point of the café, eh?
Luxury? For a large swath of the population, that’s called “a job”. From nurses to factory workers, many aren’t allowed to carry a phone when they go to work.
But, man, this idea that the leash can’t be cut for even thirty minutes to enjoy a coffee is indicative of other problems, IMO. Just because one can constantly be reachable doesn’t mean one should. Which is…kinda the point of the café, eh?
> many aren’t allowed to carry a phone when they go to work.
Reachability != carrying a phone.
For those working at a job that prohibits phones, they are still reachable, just that emergency contacts will call the workplace instead (where someone would then deliver the important notification in-person to the employee).
Reachability != carrying a phone.
For those working at a job that prohibits phones, they are still reachable, just that emergency contacts will call the workplace instead (where someone would then deliver the important notification in-person to the employee).
You're in a bubble. There are tons of people who have to go to work every day without having their cell phone. That's not a product of luxury. It's the opposite. And with your comment about "exclusionary of parents, caregivers, partners, and more" you've cleverly (or not) swapped for-all and there-exists implicit quantifiers—by "exclusionary of parents", you meant "exclusionary of people who are a parent to someone and won't be parting with their phone" and by "partners", you mean "people who are a partner to someone and won't be parting with their phone", etc.
With the obligatory "This post was a thought exercise..."
There are also those of us who can be on long flights, travel places without cell service, may turn off phone if international, etc. I'm mostly reachable by cell phone but, no, you're not guaranteed to reach me right now every moment of every day.
There are also those of us who can be on long flights, travel places without cell service, may turn off phone if international, etc. I'm mostly reachable by cell phone but, no, you're not guaranteed to reach me right now every moment of every day.
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Don't worry: for every No Screens Cafe, there are 35,000 Starbuckses.
i am recently unemployed and could turn off my phone for weeks (with forewarning) with zero problems. but also - no kids, no partner, no pets, no family that lives in the same state
Does this place exist ? Would be nice if it existed, but not sure how it would last these days.
Reminds of the old Greek Cafes that I heard about where I grew up. An old timer told me during the 1920/30s, the city police force, mostly Irish, would raid these Greek Cafes all the time, unable to get their head around people only wanted to drink coffee and I guess tea :) This was during prohibition and they thought these cafes were bootlegging. They never found anything illegal.
Reminds of the old Greek Cafes that I heard about where I grew up. An old timer told me during the 1920/30s, the city police force, mostly Irish, would raid these Greek Cafes all the time, unable to get their head around people only wanted to drink coffee and I guess tea :) This was during prohibition and they thought these cafes were bootlegging. They never found anything illegal.
This actually exists in many cities already, nothing new. I know at least a few places in NYC like this that I've been to, as well as in other cities. Sadly, I didn't mark them down on the map but you can find them easily on Google I'm sure.
Overall, the experience is pretty nice, you can chat with friends and sip some good coffee. These places usually have much higher quality coffee than other shops, since they're often specialty cafes.
Overall, the experience is pretty nice, you can chat with friends and sip some good coffee. These places usually have much higher quality coffee than other shops, since they're often specialty cafes.
I'd love to know about them because I've never heard of a place where you're told off if you use your phone.
Yeah most places aren't that strict, it's usually laptops that are banned and wifi isn't available. A quick search brought up a few:
https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2014/04/10/30...
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/12/no-laptops-a...
https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2014/04/10/30...
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/12/no-laptops-a...
Banning laptops is very common due to space constraints, when you're the kind of café that doesn't want people to stay forever. Even my university canteen bans laptops at lunch times. But the purpose isn't the same, here the idea is to create an environment for people to actively seek focus and peace.
Where is this cafe? It doesn't say, so it's not a very good advert for their service. Anyway, I'd like to check out the Co-work cafe next door.
A business everyone says is a great idea and that they wish existed but if it was around the corner from their house they’d never ever go.
The Germans probably have a word for this.
The Germans probably have a word for this.
Luftschloss?
<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Luftschloss>
<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Luftschloss>
hey so we don't allow screens here, and we're going to ask you to leave.
hmm no thanks, im not going anywhere
county sheriffs office. yea hi, um, we have this guy, he wont leave our store, and um, yeah, he refuses to leave, and, we just need somebody to get him to leave. ok, what is your location? were at no screens cafe. ok we have someone on the way. okay, thank you
county sheriffs office. yea hi, um, we have this guy, he wont leave our store, and um, yeah, he refuses to leave, and, we just need somebody to get him to leave. ok, what is your location? were at no screens cafe. ok we have someone on the way. okay, thank you
"One more question, do your officers carry a smartphone or anything like that? Anything with a screen? Okay, any chance they could turn that off before they come inside? Yeah, I'm sorry. It's the No Screens Cafe. We also don't allow firearms or weapons. Your body cameras don't have screens, right? Okay, good, you can leave that on."
if they ask you to leave and you don't, it's trespassing. they have a legal right to ask you to leave for any non-protected reason or no reason at all
Not sure if this is a real thing or a provocation piece but the concept would be much more interesting to me if it was a "no connectivity cafe", perhaps implemented with some sort of Faraday cage setup. My primary creative output is written fiction, and short of writing longhand (no thanks) or toting around some kind of vintage typewriter, which I would consider a waste of money and generally an insufferable affectation, it looks like this isn't a place for me to go and spend money and be creative. Sorry!
I struggled with this one, caconym_.
A few minutes before I had this idea, I wrote down "Faraday Cafe. No wifi. No cell signal." But then I thought about how hard it might be to build one that blocked modern 5G/wifi networks. (Can any RF/electrical engineers weigh in?)
I scribbled these ideas with pen and paper while getting breakfast this morning (phone and laptop put away). Then I went to a park to write the post on my laptop (without a network connection). Then I turned on my phone and hotspot in order to post it. (An hour later, I'm still gazing at the internet.)
I'm super open to other ideas.
A few minutes before I had this idea, I wrote down "Faraday Cafe. No wifi. No cell signal." But then I thought about how hard it might be to build one that blocked modern 5G/wifi networks. (Can any RF/electrical engineers weigh in?)
I scribbled these ideas with pen and paper while getting breakfast this morning (phone and laptop put away). Then I went to a park to write the post on my laptop (without a network connection). Then I turned on my phone and hotspot in order to post it. (An hour later, I'm still gazing at the internet.)
I'm super open to other ideas.
> But then I thought about how hard it might be to build one that blocked modern 5G/wifi networks. (Can any RF/electrical engineers weigh in?)
It's a good question. I would love it if a place like that existed near me, but I have no idea how possible/practical it is. I _think_ a fine enough mesh will block pretty much everything, but it might be expensive to set up in a real business space.
It's a good question. I would love it if a place like that existed near me, but I have no idea how possible/practical it is. I _think_ a fine enough mesh will block pretty much everything, but it might be expensive to set up in a real business space.
Meh. I'd rather see some kind if anti-literate cafe (called X maybe) that banned reading, ban on Braille, too, to be inclusive.
The point is toe be defiantly cutesy/cringey, right?
The point is toe be defiantly cutesy/cringey, right?
> The No Screens Cafe accepts cash only. You can get this from your bank! It’s not illegal yet.
In Singapore shops can legally do not accept cash as payment as long as they provide written notice: https://www.mas.gov.sg/currency/circulation-currency/accepti....
I've seen a few of them personally.
In Singapore shops can legally do not accept cash as payment as long as they provide written notice: https://www.mas.gov.sg/currency/circulation-currency/accepti....
I've seen a few of them personally.
In NZ there are plenty of places that don’t accept cash. Kinda the same deal - they just have to inform you first.
I assume the punishment for violation is 3 years in prison? It is Singapore after all.
Cash only, no phones? This is what we in the UK call a "Sam Smith's pub". It's not typically that fun a time, though the beer is cheap.
I googled this - it looks like something I'd love to visit in a trip to London. But not somewhere I could see myself as a repeat customer if I lived nearby. Still, good for them for making it work. I hope the beer is good.
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Starbucks is like that now. They removed all the tables and chairs from some locations, for homeless-proofing. Didn't lower the prices, though.
> Sorry, the No Screens Cafe doesn’t have wi-fi. Maybe try the Cowork Cafe next door.
It's interesting that sometime in the 2000s, there became an expectation that coffee shops became a workplace. I can't think of another food service business where the expectation is that anyone can come in, buy a single item, demand the wifi password, and work from that space for multiple hours.
It's interesting that sometime in the 2000s, there became an expectation that coffee shops became a workplace. I can't think of another food service business where the expectation is that anyone can come in, buy a single item, demand the wifi password, and work from that space for multiple hours.
I'm a bit weirded out by how judgmental people get about this.
Cafes that wanted to ban laptops are free to do so and always have been. Generally people who work on laptops come in during periods when the cafe would otherwise be fairly empty (10-5 weekdays). This is an additional source of revenue to the cafe that doesn't interfere with their core revenue streams - the morning takeaway coffee rush + weekend brunchers.
A local cafe near me bans laptops on weekends. Another one bans laptops on weekends unless you sit in a particular area. Another one has a special laptop area. These are all successful cafes.
I have a feeling that the cafes who prohibit laptops outright are mostly just canceling a stream of revenue. That's certainly their right, but it's probably not what is best for them.
Cafes that wanted to ban laptops are free to do so and always have been. Generally people who work on laptops come in during periods when the cafe would otherwise be fairly empty (10-5 weekdays). This is an additional source of revenue to the cafe that doesn't interfere with their core revenue streams - the morning takeaway coffee rush + weekend brunchers.
A local cafe near me bans laptops on weekends. Another one bans laptops on weekends unless you sit in a particular area. Another one has a special laptop area. These are all successful cafes.
I have a feeling that the cafes who prohibit laptops outright are mostly just canceling a stream of revenue. That's certainly their right, but it's probably not what is best for them.
It comes from the Internet cafes that would sell drinks and have PCs available in the 90s. Then Starbucks popularized wifi access and independent cafes were forced to figure out how to offer it to compete.
No one cares about being polite at Starbucks, but I would say the expectation at independent shops is still to purchase something periodically. Not everyone follows it. I don't see many independents limiting access with expiring authentication or codes given at purchase anymore. In the US, many attempting to do that don't seem to even know they're also running a free xfinity hotspot...
No one cares about being polite at Starbucks, but I would say the expectation at independent shops is still to purchase something periodically. Not everyone follows it. I don't see many independents limiting access with expiring authentication or codes given at purchase anymore. In the US, many attempting to do that don't seem to even know they're also running a free xfinity hotspot...
Many people solely pay the ridiculous prices specifically because it offers a place to hang out. coffee shops expanded because they offered this. Nobody is forcing them.
Cafes are under no obligation to provide wifi and many don’t. Well before the 2000s people spent extended periods of time at cafes chatting, people watching, or reading. Why is the line drawn at working?
i've seen cafes that explicitly state you have to buy something every hour if you want to stay. i've seen this both in the US and in europe.
I like the idea a lot and would genuinely go to such a place. And I guess the judgemental tone is there because the idea is to specifically cater to the kind of people who feel sick of screens.
But I don't understand the position against accepting cards. And I guess I also kinda disagree on e-readers, although modern ones can be used to connect to the internet and stuff, I suppose.
But I don't understand the position against accepting cards. And I guess I also kinda disagree on e-readers, although modern ones can be used to connect to the internet and stuff, I suppose.
The concept is cool, but man, have they missed the edginess mark.
>Yes, there’s a bathroom. Inside it, a sign says “Big Brother is Watching”. We don’t have cameras or anything creepy like that. But we can’t say “God is watching”. Because we killed him.
I feel like there is a long-forgotten proto-Indo-European symbol that conveys the amount of cringiness this paragraph exudes.
>Yes, there’s a bathroom. Inside it, a sign says “Big Brother is Watching”. We don’t have cameras or anything creepy like that. But we can’t say “God is watching”. Because we killed him.
I feel like there is a long-forgotten proto-Indo-European symbol that conveys the amount of cringiness this paragraph exudes.
No customers-and-soon-to-be-out-of-business cafe is more like it.
> But we can’t say “God is watching”. Because we killed him.
God was using a screen I see.
God was using a screen I see.
My favourite way to spend a day or two is to turn off my iPhone, toss it in the glovebox and hit the highway to the Rockies. If more life was “disconnected” at least my inner peace would be bolstered.
If you're going to run a shop like this, it had better have a newsstand, a library, a collection of board games, and the best coffee in town.
Okay so this is not a real Cafe, right?
I think in the US this sort of business might fly if you’re in a very large city that is easily commutable. Otherwise I can’t see how there’s enough patronage to maintain a space, and pay people.
It’s a nice idea, but I don’t think it’d mesh with reality (again, in the US)
I think in the US this sort of business might fly if you’re in a very large city that is easily commutable. Otherwise I can’t see how there’s enough patronage to maintain a space, and pay people.
It’s a nice idea, but I don’t think it’d mesh with reality (again, in the US)
A very relevant podcast I was listening to this morning about screens and gaming. Always enjoy the times I hear from Dr. Kanojia
https://youtu.be/HYiG2m8fSiE
https://youtu.be/HYiG2m8fSiE
no people cafe
I disagree. While I personally probably wouldn't patronize a cafe like this, there's definitely a niche target market that would love it.
Even if the business isn't appealing to 95% of the public, as long as you find a passionate 5% you can make a business model out of it.
Even if the business isn't appealing to 95% of the public, as long as you find a passionate 5% you can make a business model out of it.
Not in the low-margin coffee and scone business you can't.
Boomers love this sort of thing. Or at least talking about loving this sort of thing. Maybe they’re too addicted to Candy Crush style games though where they won’t actually patronize these sorts of places though.
there are a variety of clubhouses with rules like this. they can be quite byzantine like "laptops only usable in this section, until 4pm" or something like that
but I appreciate it a lot!
but I appreciate it a lot!
No cafe near me caters to laptop users. It's a bit more of a rural/farming/touristy area. I'd love a cafe that included a place to work and/or read.
Sounds like a good idea, but no cards is a dealbreaker for me.
> We don’t have any parking for cars. Cars kill innocent pedestrians and emit toxic gas. Cars ruin cities.
I see they resonate with Reddit/FuckCars.
I see they resonate with Reddit/FuckCars.
More like "How not to run a cafe" cafe.
If you blog it, they will come
neomech(2)
Are iPhones overbearing? Sure. But they enable people to stay connected with family, meet new people, work remotely, and more. I'm not against a place that prefers phones stay in your pocket, but why frame it via moral outrage rather than being welcoming? Can you imagine the conversations you'd find yourself in at this place, given this is how the "owner" sees the world?
And maybe what bothers me the most is that it's a blog post. Written on a screen and read via a screen. Blog posts are cheap to write; building a true Third Place is really really hard.