Hoarding(michaelsamsel.com)
michaelsamsel.com
Hoarding
https://www.michaelsamsel.com/Content/Difficult_Styles/hoarding.html
71 comments
> it's an inability to make decisions
I think your polyurethane example mirrors what I see with my mom, and to some degree in myself, and it's something different. It's a fear that you're throwing away something useful. It's not that me or my mom is unable to decide, it's just that we don't want to throw it away because perhaps one day it might be useful (to us or someone else), so we decide to keep it.
I'm trying to improve. I go through my stuff routinely with my SO and I force myself to get rid of things, either give them away or recycle. Do I really need this?
I talked to my mom, she wanted help but she's always talking about "sorting through" stuff. I said I'd only be willing to help if we actually threw away some stuff each time. There's just too much stuff for me to go through again and again. Suddenly it turned into a hard no. She refused my help if we had to throw away something each time. I said fair enough, perhaps not always but most of the times. Still hard no.
Admittedly she has some historically interesting things, and some useful stuff. But also a lot of junk that nobody wants anymore, like that can of polyurethane. And she just can't let go in case it might be useful...
I think your polyurethane example mirrors what I see with my mom, and to some degree in myself, and it's something different. It's a fear that you're throwing away something useful. It's not that me or my mom is unable to decide, it's just that we don't want to throw it away because perhaps one day it might be useful (to us or someone else), so we decide to keep it.
I'm trying to improve. I go through my stuff routinely with my SO and I force myself to get rid of things, either give them away or recycle. Do I really need this?
I talked to my mom, she wanted help but she's always talking about "sorting through" stuff. I said I'd only be willing to help if we actually threw away some stuff each time. There's just too much stuff for me to go through again and again. Suddenly it turned into a hard no. She refused my help if we had to throw away something each time. I said fair enough, perhaps not always but most of the times. Still hard no.
Admittedly she has some historically interesting things, and some useful stuff. But also a lot of junk that nobody wants anymore, like that can of polyurethane. And she just can't let go in case it might be useful...
>I think your polyurethane example mirrors what I see with my mom, and to some degree in myself, and it's something different. It's a fear that you're throwing away something useful. It's not that me or my mom is unable to decide, it's just that we don't want to throw it away because perhaps one day it might be useful (to us or someone else), so we decide to keep it.
This to a T.
My hoarding, which fortunately is mostly digital, is grounded in the fact I came across far too many fucking instances of "Why the hell didn't I keep that?!" such that the prospective cost of throwing something away (deleting it) far outweighs the cost of just keeping it.
Hence I've kept even files that I know for an absolute certainty I would never need again but still hoard because what if I need it?!
As an example: I have a PDF scanned copy of my passport renewal application from over 10 years ago. I will never need it again, the form itself is no longer valid, literally nobody would want it. But I keep it. Why? Because "Why the hell didn't I keep that?!".
I fear what would happen if I learn the same lesson in the physical world.
This to a T.
My hoarding, which fortunately is mostly digital, is grounded in the fact I came across far too many fucking instances of "Why the hell didn't I keep that?!" such that the prospective cost of throwing something away (deleting it) far outweighs the cost of just keeping it.
Hence I've kept even files that I know for an absolute certainty I would never need again but still hoard because what if I need it?!
As an example: I have a PDF scanned copy of my passport renewal application from over 10 years ago. I will never need it again, the form itself is no longer valid, literally nobody would want it. But I keep it. Why? Because "Why the hell didn't I keep that?!".
I fear what would happen if I learn the same lesson in the physical world.
Fortunately digital content rots extremely slowly, especially if emulation is available.
Physical stuff sometimes does, the more chemical or advanced it is, the more it rots.
With physical things it really depends on what you save. I personally tend to keep a bunch of hardware around many people would not. Some of those things will most definitely go out of usefulness date before I get to them, but are hard to get anyway so weird to get rid of. These are liable to become useless. Others are older spare parts that would not, but I cannot be bothered to sell them just yet... They might go out of style and become useless, but are likely to keep their value.
Yet more are some pieces for plans the didn't pan out yet, but they might. These won't break or might get used for something else. And a few fixable broken things that are not quite junk. These might get fixed depending on requirements. I literally have a box called wire box, and another which is a whole bunch of audio cables. That's a lot of copper. It proved useful for a variety of purposes thus far.
That is different from my mom's minor hoarding in that she keeps things that will not get used for anything ever, look cute but are horrible to keep, and additionally I do regularly clean out total junk...
The new meta is to give stuff to people who will make use of it.
With physical things it really depends on what you save. I personally tend to keep a bunch of hardware around many people would not. Some of those things will most definitely go out of usefulness date before I get to them, but are hard to get anyway so weird to get rid of. These are liable to become useless. Others are older spare parts that would not, but I cannot be bothered to sell them just yet... They might go out of style and become useless, but are likely to keep their value.
Yet more are some pieces for plans the didn't pan out yet, but they might. These won't break or might get used for something else. And a few fixable broken things that are not quite junk. These might get fixed depending on requirements. I literally have a box called wire box, and another which is a whole bunch of audio cables. That's a lot of copper. It proved useful for a variety of purposes thus far.
That is different from my mom's minor hoarding in that she keeps things that will not get used for anything ever, look cute but are horrible to keep, and additionally I do regularly clean out total junk...
The new meta is to give stuff to people who will make use of it.
Yes, it's that.. you can easily find someone with regrets of having thrown something away which actually turned out to be useful later (I've had lots of those types of regrets), but it's very rare to find someone saying "I really regret I didn't throw that away" (unless it's e.g. some chemical stuff which went bad and created a mess).
So, better safe than sorry.. I've hoarded a lot of stuff, but I've also realized there's not enough time left in life to use everything, even though I only hoard stuff I'm actually interested in. So I dump stuff. And sometimes I regret it - where's that nice piece of wood I had stashed away, now suddenly it would have been useful.. so I go and buy, instead. And so on.
>>"can't let go in case it might be useful... "
Yup, that's a key right there.
I do have a more inherited items from my family's past than I can use and have a hard time getting rid of these items.
I find that it is definitely easier when I can give it to someone who will care for it, or even a charity thrift store (e.g., some animal shelters run them for funding). Just tossing it in the dumpster or leaving it in the rain is almost painful, but if it seems that it'll be taken care of (especially better than I would), it's all right.
Similarly, I work with some very expensive materials at my composites business, and offcuts can be valuable. I cringe to put those offcuts in the dumpster, but when they accumulate too much, just giving them away on Craigslist to someone who will use them feels fine.
So, both the inability to make decisions, and also the ability to let someone else make the decision that you'd make (i.e., figure out how to put the stuff to use), are both helpful angles.
Yup, that's a key right there.
I do have a more inherited items from my family's past than I can use and have a hard time getting rid of these items.
I find that it is definitely easier when I can give it to someone who will care for it, or even a charity thrift store (e.g., some animal shelters run them for funding). Just tossing it in the dumpster or leaving it in the rain is almost painful, but if it seems that it'll be taken care of (especially better than I would), it's all right.
Similarly, I work with some very expensive materials at my composites business, and offcuts can be valuable. I cringe to put those offcuts in the dumpster, but when they accumulate too much, just giving them away on Craigslist to someone who will use them feels fine.
So, both the inability to make decisions, and also the ability to let someone else make the decision that you'd make (i.e., figure out how to put the stuff to use), are both helpful angles.
I don't have a tendency to hoard, but I do find it useful when I'm considering whether to keep a thing, to consider whether I can easily buy an equivalent or better thing on Amazon or eBay and have it at my house within a couple of days for a minimal cost. If so, then the question isn't whether the thing will someday potentially be needed, but whether I'm willing to potentially pay $X if and when that happens, in exchange for not having the thing take up space in my house until then. If you want to get fancy with it, you can mentally multiply X by the odds of that day every coming.
This is a strategy I'm trying to adopt as well. For a lot of things though the answer is that it's not easy to get a replacement easily and cheaply (no Amazon in Norway), which makes the decision tough.
Another strategy I'm trying to adopt is one my brother-in-law lives by, which is to focus on one "thing" at a time. Like he recently wanted to get an RC race car. So he sold his previous "thing" and bought an RC car setup. He'll keep it for a year or two until he finds something else he wants to try and he'll sell the RC car stuff and buy something else.
Another strategy I'm trying to adopt is one my brother-in-law lives by, which is to focus on one "thing" at a time. Like he recently wanted to get an RC race car. So he sold his previous "thing" and bought an RC car setup. He'll keep it for a year or two until he finds something else he wants to try and he'll sell the RC car stuff and buy something else.
I tried this strategy as well, but I've been disappointed when business update their portfolio. Typical example keeping a couple of door knob in case the old model is not available in future, so that all innrr doors in the house have the same knob.
It's funny, I was just chatting with a friend at brunch today about this thread, and he mentioned the same thing. Turns out we both do keep a dedicated box of extra house parts for this reason. There are indeed things that aren't easily replaced and it can make sense to keep. But if you're going to do that, you want to make sure there's a system so you can find them if you do end up needing them, and also so you don't end up with crap you don't need taking up space.
This is one of the tacks I have to take with my partner sometimes because she will hold on to stuff she thinks she can’t get again. She’s getting better at getting rid of stuff we don’t need.
>it's an inability to make decisions. That's it.
I would say it's an inability to execute the 'correct' decision society has imposed on them. Hoarders can make decisions just as well as anyone. Their unique problem occurs when it's apparent to everyone but the hoarder that it's time to discard an item. It's always something that has almost zero vale, but never none. The hoarder distorts reality, and imagines a world where the item holds some non-zero value in the remote future. My feeling is that it's somewhat linked to gambling addiction. It's as if they were a poker player, constantly betting and playing games for hundredths of a cent. It doesn't matter what cards they're dealt. At this price, they never need to fold, and so they never discard even a truly terrible hand. By doing so, they retain a very slight chance of winning the game. If their objective is to win as many games as they can, without losing any of their money, this is a valid strategy. We see this strategy as hoarding.
I would say it's an inability to execute the 'correct' decision society has imposed on them. Hoarders can make decisions just as well as anyone. Their unique problem occurs when it's apparent to everyone but the hoarder that it's time to discard an item. It's always something that has almost zero vale, but never none. The hoarder distorts reality, and imagines a world where the item holds some non-zero value in the remote future. My feeling is that it's somewhat linked to gambling addiction. It's as if they were a poker player, constantly betting and playing games for hundredths of a cent. It doesn't matter what cards they're dealt. At this price, they never need to fold, and so they never discard even a truly terrible hand. By doing so, they retain a very slight chance of winning the game. If their objective is to win as many games as they can, without losing any of their money, this is a valid strategy. We see this strategy as hoarding.
Interesting explaination, for me objects can also hold a negative value, they take up space — both physically and mentally — and it costs energy to maintain them by keeping them clean and keeping an order with the objects around them. And I say that as a person with a ton of stuff.
Some close friends of mine are hoarders and I can't help but feel that hoarders have a hard time valuing themselves or their time as more important as the objects they hold onto and the time/living space it takes to keep them. The ones that I know definitly have a hard time genuinly loving themselves and a lot of what they do (including the hoarding) seems to deal with that in some sense.
Curiously hoarders sometimes have pockets of pristine order, be it some sort of hobby or their linux home folder, while other spaces are in a complete state of disarray.
Some close friends of mine are hoarders and I can't help but feel that hoarders have a hard time valuing themselves or their time as more important as the objects they hold onto and the time/living space it takes to keep them. The ones that I know definitly have a hard time genuinly loving themselves and a lot of what they do (including the hoarding) seems to deal with that in some sense.
Curiously hoarders sometimes have pockets of pristine order, be it some sort of hobby or their linux home folder, while other spaces are in a complete state of disarray.
> The hoarder distorts reality, and imagines a world where the item holds some non-zero value in the remote future.
Nicely put. It is fascinating how often the brain can create a reality of its own, and how its perceptual and predictive machinery can be prone to "bugs".
Nicely put. It is fascinating how often the brain can create a reality of its own, and how its perceptual and predictive machinery can be prone to "bugs".
I’d fail every time to word it as well as you did. I suffer from a familial dysfunction with “things”. It isn’t hoarding for the sake of hoarding. It’s a complex mix of genetic and socioeconomic nuances of my parents’ upbringing (scarcity of resources), truly knowing the value of things and an inability to throw something broken away that we can fix - yet don’t have the time or willingness to. Along with ADHD (out of sight = out of mind).
Then there’s the part of convenience. The likelihood of hoarding something is directly proportional to how hard is to to get rid of.
Edited: for clarity
Then there’s the part of convenience. The likelihood of hoarding something is directly proportional to how hard is to to get rid of.
Edited: for clarity
Upbringing does play a part. My father grew up post ww2, his parents went through the depression. He grew up on a small-holding and while there was a lot of fun, not a lot of money.
The times and circumstances meant a lot of fixing, and creating. You didn't throw stuff away, it could be useful, and usually was.
He was successful, had a good career, lived in a big house, but never lost the urge to build, recycle, fix and so on. When the oven door broke after 30 years he replaced it with a spare one he had in the garage. [1].
From him I learned to despise waste. I don't like throwing stuff away. But I'll happily give stuff away. And we live far enough up the food chain that there's always someone happy to take my broken junk and turn it into money.
I've come to learn that I don't have my father's desire, or time, to actually fix things, but I have his sense of not-waste. Sometimes it takes effort, but I try to make an effort to discard things that are truly past it, or at least pass them on to someone else.
Yes, I've inherited his sensibilities through genes and upbringing, but I've also become self-aware of it and so j recognise when it's happening.
[1] because his mothers stove broke years earlier, same model, and he kept the broken one for spare parts ;)
The times and circumstances meant a lot of fixing, and creating. You didn't throw stuff away, it could be useful, and usually was.
He was successful, had a good career, lived in a big house, but never lost the urge to build, recycle, fix and so on. When the oven door broke after 30 years he replaced it with a spare one he had in the garage. [1].
From him I learned to despise waste. I don't like throwing stuff away. But I'll happily give stuff away. And we live far enough up the food chain that there's always someone happy to take my broken junk and turn it into money.
I've come to learn that I don't have my father's desire, or time, to actually fix things, but I have his sense of not-waste. Sometimes it takes effort, but I try to make an effort to discard things that are truly past it, or at least pass them on to someone else.
Yes, I've inherited his sensibilities through genes and upbringing, but I've also become self-aware of it and so j recognise when it's happening.
[1] because his mothers stove broke years earlier, same model, and he kept the broken one for spare parts ;)
Growing up my brother and I had to do many items of yard work using a wheelbarrow my father had taken from his father who had pulled it out of someone’s trash in 1939. Eventually my brother and I had real landscaping part-time jobs in high school and realized just how painful our wheelbarrow was and bought my dad a new one.
To be clear my grandfather was basically a farmhand from Bavaria with an 8th grade education who found himself in NYC in 1936 to marry his sweetheart and get the heck out of Germany.
To be clear my grandfather was basically a farmhand from Bavaria with an 8th grade education who found himself in NYC in 1936 to marry his sweetheart and get the heck out of Germany.
I still lack that self-awareness, sigh. Happy for you though!
I think your point at the end about the inability to make decisions hits the nail on the head. Would be interesting to see a study of decisiveness & hoarding correlation.
Inertia is a hell of a thing. Selling, donating, recycling, or disposing of items is an active decision.
Inertia is a hell of a thing. Selling, donating, recycling, or disposing of items is an active decision.
I don't know any hoarders personally myself, so I many be off-base. But it doesn't seem that they are unable to make any decisions - they are quite able to buy new items without agonizing over (say) which brand of polyurethane to buy. They can decide what to have for dinner or which pants to wear. It's specifically decisions around whether to throw away an item which they find difficult.
This makes me wonder whether there is some other psychological process which makes those particular decisions hard.
This makes me wonder whether there is some other psychological process which makes those particular decisions hard.
> Here's the key: it's an inability to make decisions.
I think this is spot on. I definitely have hoarder tendencies. A look at my office would easily confirm this. I also tend to hoard code - I'll often comment out old code that no longer applies just in case it might be needed later, or in case I'll need to remember how I did something before. This gets pointed out in code reviews.
I think this is spot on. I definitely have hoarder tendencies. A look at my office would easily confirm this. I also tend to hoard code - I'll often comment out old code that no longer applies just in case it might be needed later, or in case I'll need to remember how I did something before. This gets pointed out in code reviews.
Maybe software engineers are just paranoid. Our best practice is to take hoarding to the extreme; keep every version of every file that ever existed, add a note about it, and push the entire history to each new checkout.
It probably does stem from some sort of loss aversion. We have all wished for longer undo history, things like git take that to the extreme. Now that we can't lose things, we're free to work without that fear.
It probably does stem from some sort of loss aversion. We have all wished for longer undo history, things like git take that to the extreme. Now that we can't lose things, we're free to work without that fear.
There's a very particular pain you get when you know you had something and you lost it; or worse, you know you threw it away.
It may be related to too good of a memory, or autism, or whatever, but there are parts of my life where I have way too good a memory for everything I have and had, and other parts where I'm like "yeah I got a lot of something like that, but who cares".
It may be related to too good of a memory, or autism, or whatever, but there are parts of my life where I have way too good a memory for everything I have and had, and other parts where I'm like "yeah I got a lot of something like that, but who cares".
> There's a very particular pain you get when you know you had something and you lost it; or worse, you know you threw it away.
CONSOLATION GROOK
Losing one glove is certainly painful, but nothing compared to the pain, of losing one, throwing away the other, and finding the first one again.
--Piet Hein https://www.phys.ufl.edu/~thorn/grooks.html
CONSOLATION GROOK
Losing one glove is certainly painful, but nothing compared to the pain, of losing one, throwing away the other, and finding the first one again.
--Piet Hein https://www.phys.ufl.edu/~thorn/grooks.html
Is that not what version control is for? VCS is the ultimate hoarder! It keeps all your code back to the first commit ...
You can always go back in your version control history.
Oh, definitely. But there's a part of me that continues to want to see that commented out code in the current code as a reminder or something. Yeah, it's not rational.
I'm sorry but Freudian's universalist approach is as bullsh*t as a genetic explanation for hoarding. I agree that to make the universal claim that all hoarding is a reaction to a loss is wrong if we are talking about specific losses. But I think you are taking the concept of loss too narrowly. The idea that hoarding is a compensation for a loss is in the more general sense, as if collecting things would be a way to fill in a lack, to fill a void, that otherwise it would be too much to be dealt with. that can be a physical loss (like someone having their home taken away from them) or a more symbolic/abstract loss (someone having abusive parents that buy their children's love with toys). Every case has its own particularities, but the idea of loss in psychoanalysis is not just a mere loss of an object, but also the feeling of absence of something that was never there.
I would totally be a hoarder if it were not for the fact the local government gives us 6 cube metres of "free" curb side bulk rubbish pick up each year. If you don't use them, you lose them.
Obviously I'm paying for these through council tax rates so I make a point of using them up.
These give me a chance to, and crucially, force me to make decisions about junk to get rid of.
Another part of the hoarder condition is that often stuff you board does actually become useful again, I'm regularly coming across things in the house that need fixing or batteries replaced and a quick look around the workshop or in the dedicated junk draws and I can usually find the thing I need. This reinforces the habit.
But back to my point, can I suggest you supply your mom with a rubbish pick up a few times a year, rent a trailer or skip and drop it off to be filled for taking to the dump.
The time based urgency should help make some decisions.
I also wouldn't have let her wait to look that up, I would have looked it up on the spot. Putting things off is a good way to lose the war.
Obviously I'm paying for these through council tax rates so I make a point of using them up.
These give me a chance to, and crucially, force me to make decisions about junk to get rid of.
Another part of the hoarder condition is that often stuff you board does actually become useful again, I'm regularly coming across things in the house that need fixing or batteries replaced and a quick look around the workshop or in the dedicated junk draws and I can usually find the thing I need. This reinforces the habit.
But back to my point, can I suggest you supply your mom with a rubbish pick up a few times a year, rent a trailer or skip and drop it off to be filled for taking to the dump.
The time based urgency should help make some decisions.
I also wouldn't have let her wait to look that up, I would have looked it up on the spot. Putting things off is a good way to lose the war.
> Here's the key: it's an inability to make decisions.
That’s a very helpful insight; and to take it further I would just note that pathologic doubt, or intolerance of uncertainty is a cardinal feature of obsessive-compulsive disorder. No idea whether it relates to the family members in your story or even to most hoarders, but in some OCD patients, like me, it takes the form of an extreme inability to decide because of a need to completely dispel doubt by seeking more information. But of course there’s no amount of information that will ultimately triumph over doubt for those so afflicted. I wonder why all OCD/uncertainty-intolerant people don’t become hoarders. Maybe there’s a countervailing aesthetic, ordering drive.
That’s a very helpful insight; and to take it further I would just note that pathologic doubt, or intolerance of uncertainty is a cardinal feature of obsessive-compulsive disorder. No idea whether it relates to the family members in your story or even to most hoarders, but in some OCD patients, like me, it takes the form of an extreme inability to decide because of a need to completely dispel doubt by seeking more information. But of course there’s no amount of information that will ultimately triumph over doubt for those so afflicted. I wonder why all OCD/uncertainty-intolerant people don’t become hoarders. Maybe there’s a countervailing aesthetic, ordering drive.
Keeping objects is not free. It takes mental and physical space and needs work to be kept in shape.
So even if you have a hard time to decide, that cost will push you to a decision at some point, because it starts to affect you as a person physically and emotionally (e.g. being annoyed by that box of empty bottles).
Hoarders tend to priorize those objects above themselves and phantasize some time where those objects might become crucial to have. We all to that to some degree, who doesn't have weird chargers for long lost devices in their drawer somewhere? But what differenciates hoarders from people like you and me is that they won't stop keeping things when that drawer is full, when their living room is full, when every last nook and cranny of their flat is used.
I have been to sizeable flats that looked like narrow caves, with the walls obscured by piles of things and stacks of old yellowed newspapers splitting rooms in small paths. Of course keeping such a place clean is more or less impossible, especially if it is being lived in and the safety hazards (fire, collapse of floor, ...) are real.
So even if you have a hard time to decide, that cost will push you to a decision at some point, because it starts to affect you as a person physically and emotionally (e.g. being annoyed by that box of empty bottles).
Hoarders tend to priorize those objects above themselves and phantasize some time where those objects might become crucial to have. We all to that to some degree, who doesn't have weird chargers for long lost devices in their drawer somewhere? But what differenciates hoarders from people like you and me is that they won't stop keeping things when that drawer is full, when their living room is full, when every last nook and cranny of their flat is used.
I have been to sizeable flats that looked like narrow caves, with the walls obscured by piles of things and stacks of old yellowed newspapers splitting rooms in small paths. Of course keeping such a place clean is more or less impossible, especially if it is being lived in and the safety hazards (fire, collapse of floor, ...) are real.
tl;dr I agree with you and think the author mis-assesses the psychology of collecting, too.
I grew up in a family of collectors. By the age of 10 I'd spent countless hours scouring antique shops and shows and flea markets for my items of hyper-focus: metal litho advertising, mostly particularly tobacco cans, because I was working with an allowance and the age of tobacco tins was not long in our past then. I was really introverted, but learned to haggle, to "dicker," before I learned to swim. I spent even more hours in my public library, looking up whatever information I could find about my collection and similar pieces and why some were valuable and others not.
Yes, I kept everything up well. But . . . I only kept collecting. It was almost some kind of mania. Even when I branched into antique yo-yo collecting, it wasn't doing anything for my ability to socialize as a teenager. Collect, collect, collect!
Until my parents got divorced and sold their collections. My brother and I opted to also sell our collections. No coercion - it was a choice: I was an adult by then and my brother was 18 but still finishing high school.
And soon after that, I wasn't looking at everything as a collector anymore, I wasn't trying to put a value on things. I also didn't have a lot of stuff that just took up space. Eureka! I'd discovered some new state of being: collection-free.
I think collecting can be a problem. I think the author misses that in the analysis, too.
I grew up in a family of collectors. By the age of 10 I'd spent countless hours scouring antique shops and shows and flea markets for my items of hyper-focus: metal litho advertising, mostly particularly tobacco cans, because I was working with an allowance and the age of tobacco tins was not long in our past then. I was really introverted, but learned to haggle, to "dicker," before I learned to swim. I spent even more hours in my public library, looking up whatever information I could find about my collection and similar pieces and why some were valuable and others not.
Yes, I kept everything up well. But . . . I only kept collecting. It was almost some kind of mania. Even when I branched into antique yo-yo collecting, it wasn't doing anything for my ability to socialize as a teenager. Collect, collect, collect!
Until my parents got divorced and sold their collections. My brother and I opted to also sell our collections. No coercion - it was a choice: I was an adult by then and my brother was 18 but still finishing high school.
And soon after that, I wasn't looking at everything as a collector anymore, I wasn't trying to put a value on things. I also didn't have a lot of stuff that just took up space. Eureka! I'd discovered some new state of being: collection-free.
I think collecting can be a problem. I think the author misses that in the analysis, too.
I think should be a balance. I went full digital Marie Kondo a few years back, and I regret it.
I'm into a lot of niche media, like covers or small indie band scenes. And at the beginning having everything in Spotify or YouTube seems nice... Until there is a rights issue or something worse (like an artist being doxed) and the song it's deleted and became lost media.
Now I backup everything in a 2x2TB HDD just in case (Mirrored across 2 computers using syncthing, similar to Raid 1) and seeing how my music playlist in YouTube it's full of gray thumbnails, I think was a good investment.
I'm into a lot of niche media, like covers or small indie band scenes. And at the beginning having everything in Spotify or YouTube seems nice... Until there is a rights issue or something worse (like an artist being doxed) and the song it's deleted and became lost media.
Now I backup everything in a 2x2TB HDD just in case (Mirrored across 2 computers using syncthing, similar to Raid 1) and seeing how my music playlist in YouTube it's full of gray thumbnails, I think was a good investment.
There's a real value to digital hoarding, because external forces are operating against you, and it will all crumble to dust.
It's also nice that you can digitally hoard billions of megabytes in the space of a small shoebox.
It's also nice that you can digitally hoard billions of megabytes in the space of a small shoebox.
This. I can't see any downside to digital hoarding. A couple of hard drives is not going to turn your house into a dump. They are very easy to search. It imposes very little on your relatives after you die. And as you say, things frequently disappear online. If you want to always have access to something it's worthwhile keeping your own unencrypted copy.
That’s what’s sad (imho) with moving away from physical releases. Getting a pressed CD was cheap, even for the most cash strapped band. I could take it home, rip it and have copies on an iPod, a CD-RW for the car, on my computer and media server. Should anything happen, the original disc is right there to rip again.
Movies are the same. With the demise of video rental shops, and content going in an out of half a dozen streaming services, it can be really challenging to find obscure movies that used to be easy to find. Browsing sucks now as well. And if I throw that into a watch later list and get back to it in a few weeks, there’s a chance it won’t be there.
I’d love to pair down my physical collections, but that concern of losing something and not being able to find it again is a huge impediment.
Movies are the same. With the demise of video rental shops, and content going in an out of half a dozen streaming services, it can be really challenging to find obscure movies that used to be easy to find. Browsing sucks now as well. And if I throw that into a watch later list and get back to it in a few weeks, there’s a chance it won’t be there.
I’d love to pair down my physical collections, but that concern of losing something and not being able to find it again is a huge impediment.
> I went full digital Marie Kondo a few years back, and I regret it.
I would love to hear/read an exposition of this at some point.
I would love to hear/read an exposition of this at some point.
I am not sure if I am in that group. But somewhat counter intuitively I would actually hoard a lot less if I have huge amount of money. i.e Most things could easily be replaced or bought.
I do have videos and music files, but I dont think I hoard them. I keep them because I know none of the file / video / music streaming services can be trusted. I think of it as a Distribution problem. Not a hoarding problem.
I do have videos and music files, but I dont think I hoard them. I keep them because I know none of the file / video / music streaming services can be trusted. I think of it as a Distribution problem. Not a hoarding problem.
> I think of it as a Distribution problem. Not a hoarding problem.
imo this is exactly the line of thought that leads to bona fide hoarding
they're not crazy (most of them). it's an unfortunate set of circumstances, or they went in the right direction, but too far/with bad timing
imo this is exactly the line of thought that leads to bona fide hoarding
they're not crazy (most of them). it's an unfortunate set of circumstances, or they went in the right direction, but too far/with bad timing
> I keep them because I know none of the file / video / music streaming services can be trusted.
That's not an emotional attachment, that's just practical. My kids are going to be like "Neil Young? Sorry, never heard of him" because he pulled his music off Spotify -- a blunder that lies somewhere in the space between a disservice to future generations and an "own goal".
That's not an emotional attachment, that's just practical. My kids are going to be like "Neil Young? Sorry, never heard of him" because he pulled his music off Spotify -- a blunder that lies somewhere in the space between a disservice to future generations and an "own goal".
Some of the most prolific hoarders have quite a bit of money; in fact it can be part of the annoyance dealing with parents who have millions in the bank and yet insist on not throwing away that old bottle of dried up shoe polish "because it's still useful".
I think everyone has hoarding behavior wired into their psyche. Some people have it trained out of their behavior, but many have had it trained in.
Lots of retail and software companies train you to make money. Free to play gaming companies monetize by creating collections of things, and making you jump through hoops to complete them.
Retail does it. Clothing companies make clothes that work as a set. Power tool companies make batteries that only work with their collection of tools, and keep adding tools. Apple ecosystem.
maintaining is another subject. Is that organizing?
I've listened to a few audiobooks on organizing. Two that stood out were the Tidying book by Marie Kondo's, and also Decluttering at the Speed of Life by Dana White.
At first, the clear winner was Marie Kondo. It made so much sense, philosophically. You just adopt this mindset, everyone in japan does it, and boom. However, it was really hard to implement ("do it all at once") and never got going.
The Decluttering audiobook was actually annoying at first, too many examples that I didn't connect with. Philosophically it seemed wrong too ("just get rid of stuff until the stuff you have fits"). However, in the end I think it has practical advice... and then goes on to some real wisdom.
(maybe implement decluttering then read kondo afterwards)
Lots of retail and software companies train you to make money. Free to play gaming companies monetize by creating collections of things, and making you jump through hoops to complete them.
Retail does it. Clothing companies make clothes that work as a set. Power tool companies make batteries that only work with their collection of tools, and keep adding tools. Apple ecosystem.
maintaining is another subject. Is that organizing?
I've listened to a few audiobooks on organizing. Two that stood out were the Tidying book by Marie Kondo's, and also Decluttering at the Speed of Life by Dana White.
At first, the clear winner was Marie Kondo. It made so much sense, philosophically. You just adopt this mindset, everyone in japan does it, and boom. However, it was really hard to implement ("do it all at once") and never got going.
The Decluttering audiobook was actually annoying at first, too many examples that I didn't connect with. Philosophically it seemed wrong too ("just get rid of stuff until the stuff you have fits"). However, in the end I think it has practical advice... and then goes on to some real wisdom.
(maybe implement decluttering then read kondo afterwards)
I don't think everyone has hoarding wired into their psyche. I am the complete opposite, I hate accumulating things and having any clutter. My spouse does like to hold onto things well past their usefulness for emotional reasons, and it's a constant source of conflict because I want to get rid of them.
> everyone in japan does it
Nope, not even close. Quite the opposite, in fact, as Japanese offices and apartments tend to be full to the brim with crap. Partly this is by necessity, since both are also tend to be quite small and cramped by Western standards, but being well behind the curve on moving away from paper to digital also contributes.
https://i1.wp.com/www.allaboutlean.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
Nope, not even close. Quite the opposite, in fact, as Japanese offices and apartments tend to be full to the brim with crap. Partly this is by necessity, since both are also tend to be quite small and cramped by Western standards, but being well behind the curve on moving away from paper to digital also contributes.
https://i1.wp.com/www.allaboutlean.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
People get impressed by Japan fitting everything in a small space, but often you realize that small space is incredibly packed.
regarding the Marie Kondo approach being tough -- now with three kids, she feels so too and has adjusted
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/30/entertainment/marie-kondo-sto...
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/30/entertainment/marie-kondo-sto...
There's a part here that people seem to miss about hoarders.
Horders live powerless lives. It's rare that you seen an insanely wealthy person who built their own business who hoards things. Usually, hoarders have had either an emotional abuse component growing up or emotional trauma as an adult.
What's money equal? Power. Hoarders with a few dollars in their pocket will seek out that next high that they get from purchasing an item that they MIGHT use some day. From the time they put that item in their cart until the time that they make the purchase, THEY are in control of the decision making process. It might be the only time they ever feel in control of their own lives, as the mounds of stuff close them in and hamper their movement.
I see hoarding as sort of a sister to people who have issues with overeating, especially those who were conditioned to "clean your plate." The compulsion to eat until past full because you've got a food opportunity that you must not squander is probably a decent part of the reason that we have as many overweight people as we do. It's not enough to sit, have a nice dinner and some conversation, and let the food settle while you eat, discarding a bit if you get full. For some families, you are expected to consume every speck of food lest it go to waste. This ends with people feeling that they are satiated only when they are stuffed because they have been conditioned to behave in that manner.
Horders live powerless lives. It's rare that you seen an insanely wealthy person who built their own business who hoards things. Usually, hoarders have had either an emotional abuse component growing up or emotional trauma as an adult.
What's money equal? Power. Hoarders with a few dollars in their pocket will seek out that next high that they get from purchasing an item that they MIGHT use some day. From the time they put that item in their cart until the time that they make the purchase, THEY are in control of the decision making process. It might be the only time they ever feel in control of their own lives, as the mounds of stuff close them in and hamper their movement.
I see hoarding as sort of a sister to people who have issues with overeating, especially those who were conditioned to "clean your plate." The compulsion to eat until past full because you've got a food opportunity that you must not squander is probably a decent part of the reason that we have as many overweight people as we do. It's not enough to sit, have a nice dinner and some conversation, and let the food settle while you eat, discarding a bit if you get full. For some families, you are expected to consume every speck of food lest it go to waste. This ends with people feeling that they are satiated only when they are stuffed because they have been conditioned to behave in that manner.
> It's rare that you seen an insanely wealthy person who built their own business who hoards things.
Well, insanely wealthy people are a miniscule share of the population, whether or not they’ve built there own business to get that way, so, yes, its rare to see someone in the overlap of those sets.
And rich people can hoard a lot more before it becomes problematic, or even noticeable.
Well, insanely wealthy people are a miniscule share of the population, whether or not they’ve built there own business to get that way, so, yes, its rare to see someone in the overlap of those sets.
And rich people can hoard a lot more before it becomes problematic, or even noticeable.
Curioulsy, what about digital hoarding? endlessly bookmarking things to never visit them again.
Jason Scott has a post about the relationship between his trauma and digital archiving activities:
https://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5443
https://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5443
This is the reason why I could consider myself a hoarder, but
> Hoarding is absolutely not laziness. A lazy person does not resist someone cleaning up for them!
tells me that I might just be lazy.
And digital hoarding is not too bad since I almost never see my bookmarks, it doesn't affect me much.
> Hoarding is absolutely not laziness. A lazy person does not resist someone cleaning up for them!
tells me that I might just be lazy.
And digital hoarding is not too bad since I almost never see my bookmarks, it doesn't affect me much.
this is a sign the person hasn't yet fully ubderstood and accepted the inevitability of their own death. in their mind, they will live forever and eventually have time to visit each bookmark.
I do poor-man's bookmark hoarding; I leave tabs open on things I am interested in, until said tabs fail or the browser crashes.
If I don't bother reopening them, that part is passed.
If I don't bother reopening them, that part is passed.
Or storing terabytes of data offline.
Probably similar reasons but with less real-world harm.
Probably similar reasons but with less real-world harm.
Hey, what's wrong with actually owning your data? :p
(I'm watching Shin Chan again lately. Last time I used Netflix, years ago, I remember they took it down due to some licensing reason. That actually spurred me on to get it, and now I can watch it any time. Muaha)
(I'm watching Shin Chan again lately. Last time I used Netflix, years ago, I remember they took it down due to some licensing reason. That actually spurred me on to get it, and now I can watch it any time. Muaha)
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I might have the opposite problem. I like my space way more than my stuff. I want all my corners cleaned out, all paper mail recycled, all counters clear. Luckily I haven't yet tipped into "compulsive decluttering" which is apparently the opposite side of the hoarding coin.
"Compulsive decluttering is the act of throwing items, or clutter, away, or getting rid of them in an attempt to "clean up".... Even though it is the polar opposite of compulsive hoarding, the two are related because they both fall under the umbrella of OCD in different ways. Compulsive decluttering is also known as compulsive decluttering disorder, and is also known as "compulsive spartanism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_decluttering
"Compulsive decluttering is the act of throwing items, or clutter, away, or getting rid of them in an attempt to "clean up".... Even though it is the polar opposite of compulsive hoarding, the two are related because they both fall under the umbrella of OCD in different ways. Compulsive decluttering is also known as compulsive decluttering disorder, and is also known as "compulsive spartanism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_decluttering
Some points resonate, some don't. By this definition I am physical books hoarder (4-5k). But I can surely tell each book apart and where/when I got it. I definitely don't have enough space to store all of them well, yet new books keep being added every year (though in recent years its down to trickle). For me it is like having a personal reference library, more like a miniature version of Umberto Eco's library, and you really don't know what you might need/read in the future. So yes, there are piles of books that I have not read, might not read at all, (there is a apt Japanese word for these unread piles of books: tsundoku) but also that there is a hope/belief that someday I will read/need them. Of course, now that almost everything is digitised you can get a much larger access to knowledge. But its just that it feels good to have a physical book with you.
I'm betting prehistoric peoples who didn't squirrel away supplies, food, etc. were less successful than those who did.
OTOH, you can't accumulate crap to where you can't move around it.
Throwing everything away to the point of Steve Jobs' minimalism with a lamp and stereo is another opposite, inefficient extreme.
OTOH, you can't accumulate crap to where you can't move around it.
Throwing everything away to the point of Steve Jobs' minimalism with a lamp and stereo is another opposite, inefficient extreme.
Prehistoric peoples were often living a nomadic life, and then you just can't hold on to more than what you absolutely need.
When it comes to code and product features, most organizations check all 3 boxes.
There is rarely that intention but rewards for refactoring and removing tech debt are usually nonexistent.
It's more of a Tragedy of the Commons.
It's more of a Tragedy of the Commons.
I find a reversal test is sometimes useful when considering whether to keep something: if I didn’t already own it, would I buy it for an amount that it might sell it for.
I think there can a narcissistic component to hoarding - the internal narrative such that I am the best person to curate / guide / fix these valuable objects. And to keep them out of the hands of rivals / unwashed masses. Maybe this gets more to why rich people hoard money.
It seems like rich version of Diogenes syndrome, instead of taking from rubbish you buy them new (so you accumulate more slowly).
I was hoping this would be about neat signs plastered on the side of buildings in Bengaluru...
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First of all the thing about hoarding being triggered by loss: I think this has more to do with psychoanalysts looking for an explanatory reason of that sort. (I.e. Freudian bullshit.) From my observation it is more of a genetic personality trait that the person has already had the inclination to hoarding independent of any life events. Certainly life events or the loss of a loved one could make a barely-in-control hoarding situation spiral out of control, but it didn't start the hoarding any more than gunshot sounds cause avalanches unless avalanche conditions were already present.
Second to the points about inability to describe the objects in detail, to handle the objects for more than a short time, or not being able to reliably tell the animals apart in an animal hoarding situation. We had 19 cats (in a 2 bedroom), and it was bad for us and the animals, but we definitely could tell them apart! Photographic memory runs in my family; most of us could in fact describe most of the objects. That's part of the problem! A tendency to see every object as unique contributes to inability to not keep them all.
I feel like TFA was written from the perspective of someone who has no personal experience or understanding. A recent experience at my mother's house provides a much better illustration of why hoarding happens. Her doorstep had rotted out and I had to rebuild it. My mother suggested I use some polyurethane coating to finish the wood, but the bottle she'd been saving had been open an unknown number of years and turned into a disgusting milkshake. I said we better not use that and would just buy a new bottle. I asked if I could take the spoiled bottle to the trash for her and she almost agreed, but at the last moment stopped me. She wanted to look up on the internet whether there was a way to turn the spoiled polyurethane back into usable, and asked me to put it in the separate RV (itself falling to pieces) until she has time to do that.
Here's the key: it's an inability to make decisions. That's it. The emotional distress component follows from the stress of being unable to make a decision, not the other way around. (The reason a decision cannot be made is because the future cannot be completely known, thus it is impossible to say a discarded item will definitely not turn out to have been needed.) The build-up of things comes from putting off the decisions to keep or get rid of things indefinitely.