What AT&T and Verizon knew about toxic lead cables for decades(wsj.com)
wsj.com
What AT&T and Verizon knew about toxic lead cables for decades
https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/what-att-and-verizon-knew-about-toxic-lead-cables/a288b7d4-28f3-470e-b6c4-72341c97b3a0
148 comments
"Within half a mile" is an inane standard. There's no evidence that a _buried_ cable leaches lead that far, that's simply bonkers. Lead is definitely not something to chew on, but this is histrionic fearbait reporting.
> There's no evidence that a _buried_ cable leaches lead that far
Well, the question is how much lead leaches out and gets transported by rainfall down to groundwater tables from which we source our drinking water.
Well, the question is how much lead leaches out and gets transported by rainfall down to groundwater tables from which we source our drinking water.
I understand how lead-lined Roman aqueducts would put lead into drinking water — there's nowhere for the lead to go but to stay in the water, since the lead lining is below the water.
But I'm unclear on how lead that had leached into groundwater would remain in groundwater. Shouldn't the lead, being heavier than water, drop out of the groundwater and get caught up in the soil? Isn't this the primary filtering function we expect of soil — the reason aggregate is used as a filtering medium in wastewater treatment?
If not, wouldn't you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal? Wouldn't you expect that it'd be deadly to drink groundwater that had ever flowed through any underground ore deposits?
But I'm unclear on how lead that had leached into groundwater would remain in groundwater. Shouldn't the lead, being heavier than water, drop out of the groundwater and get caught up in the soil? Isn't this the primary filtering function we expect of soil — the reason aggregate is used as a filtering medium in wastewater treatment?
If not, wouldn't you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal? Wouldn't you expect that it'd be deadly to drink groundwater that had ever flowed through any underground ore deposits?
Elemental lead is fairly reactive - it forms a number of compounds, some of which are soluble in water. Dissolved compounds may precipitate but they don't always "fall out" simply because the elements in them are heavier.
> you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal?
That does happen. Cadmium is probably the most common culprit.
> In groundwater in Pakistan, mean Cd concentrations of 10 μg/L originated from Jurassic sulfide-bearing sedimentary rocks (Naseem et al., 2014). In Germany, background Cd concentrations in groundwater range from 0.11 μg/L in loess aquifers below arable land to 2.7 μg/L in sandy aquifers below forested lands [1]
The limit in the USA and EU is 5 ug/L. It's quite possible to drill a well with natural cadmium levels above the generally accepted safe level. Lead, arsenic, chromium, barium, and copper are other common culprits. In particular, chronic arsenic poisoning from naturally-occurring arsenic in ground water and aquifers affects many millions of people around the world.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7147761/
> you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal?
That does happen. Cadmium is probably the most common culprit.
> In groundwater in Pakistan, mean Cd concentrations of 10 μg/L originated from Jurassic sulfide-bearing sedimentary rocks (Naseem et al., 2014). In Germany, background Cd concentrations in groundwater range from 0.11 μg/L in loess aquifers below arable land to 2.7 μg/L in sandy aquifers below forested lands [1]
The limit in the USA and EU is 5 ug/L. It's quite possible to drill a well with natural cadmium levels above the generally accepted safe level. Lead, arsenic, chromium, barium, and copper are other common culprits. In particular, chronic arsenic poisoning from naturally-occurring arsenic in ground water and aquifers affects many millions of people around the world.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7147761/
Virtually everything that dissolves in water is heavier than an H2O molecule, and a lot (most?) soluble salts are denser than water. If you want an example, table salt sinks to the bottom before dissolving. Also, yes, some ground waters are naturally high in different metals. Before drinking water from a well you drilled you usually have to get the well's water tested.
My assumption in writing the above was that non-soluble elemental lead metal (the thing the sheathing is made out of, and that Roman aqueducts were made out of, and the thing that soil could easily trap and filter out) is the "problem" with lead poisoning; while the lead ions in lead compounds are mostly safe. Like it is with mercury, where mercury amalgams are perfectly fine to use as dental fillings, but getting even a little metallic mercury past your skin will kill you.
Looking into it, though, apparently lead metal and lead ions are both toxic, through independent mechanisms. And that the toxicity of e.g. lead-based paint is due to the toxicity of lead compounds, rather than the toxicity of metallic lead.
Still: is there cause to believe that metallic lead from lead sheathing in cables, would react with something in the ground to form soluble lead compounds, rather than remaining particulate metal and therefore coming to rest in the soil? Things don't oxidize underground, right? And groundwater is usually pH-neutral enough to not create an environment amenable for reduction reactions involving e.g. chromium or sulfur, right?
I say this because several people above have mentioned that there are other metallic-ion "natural pollutants" in groundwater — but I've still never heard of groundwater with high natural lead levels.
Looking into it, though, apparently lead metal and lead ions are both toxic, through independent mechanisms. And that the toxicity of e.g. lead-based paint is due to the toxicity of lead compounds, rather than the toxicity of metallic lead.
Still: is there cause to believe that metallic lead from lead sheathing in cables, would react with something in the ground to form soluble lead compounds, rather than remaining particulate metal and therefore coming to rest in the soil? Things don't oxidize underground, right? And groundwater is usually pH-neutral enough to not create an environment amenable for reduction reactions involving e.g. chromium or sulfur, right?
I say this because several people above have mentioned that there are other metallic-ion "natural pollutants" in groundwater — but I've still never heard of groundwater with high natural lead levels.
You have mercury all wrong, and lead mostly so.
Elemental mercury is very difficult to absorb, and even in vapor form the LD50 is quite high. It typically requires extended exposure to even vapor from mercury to have any issues. Even a drop of organic mercury on a glove (let alone skin) can kill.
Historically, even periodically drinking liquid elemental mercury was relatively harmless and didn’t poison anyone. You’d have to do it a lot. The Louis and Clark expedition used it for its laxative effects, and it’s allowed historians to confirm which campsites were theirs or not, for instance.
Most compounds and salts of mercury, especially organic compounds, are incredibly toxic. [https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/mercury/mercorgcasedef.asp]
Many of those compounds form when metallic/elemental mercury is around certain microorganisms, like those in many ponds and lakes, or when man made.
Lead isn’t dissimilar. Lead poisoning (or measurable uptake) from elemental lead almost always requires extended ingestion or inhalation of lead, or ingestion/exposure to a salt or compound which allows easier intake.
The most common forms of lead poisoning usually involve things like habitual smoking or eating while having lead dust covered hands, or persistent ingestion of lead containing substances (like contaminated water) or breathing in of lead contaminated dust.
It takes a surprising amount of persistent exposure, unless someone is really stupid. Like doing oxyacetylene cutting of lead sheet without PPE, or cleaning a shooting range then not washing their hands after.
Elemental mercury is very difficult to absorb, and even in vapor form the LD50 is quite high. It typically requires extended exposure to even vapor from mercury to have any issues. Even a drop of organic mercury on a glove (let alone skin) can kill.
Historically, even periodically drinking liquid elemental mercury was relatively harmless and didn’t poison anyone. You’d have to do it a lot. The Louis and Clark expedition used it for its laxative effects, and it’s allowed historians to confirm which campsites were theirs or not, for instance.
Most compounds and salts of mercury, especially organic compounds, are incredibly toxic. [https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/mercury/mercorgcasedef.asp]
Many of those compounds form when metallic/elemental mercury is around certain microorganisms, like those in many ponds and lakes, or when man made.
Lead isn’t dissimilar. Lead poisoning (or measurable uptake) from elemental lead almost always requires extended ingestion or inhalation of lead, or ingestion/exposure to a salt or compound which allows easier intake.
The most common forms of lead poisoning usually involve things like habitual smoking or eating while having lead dust covered hands, or persistent ingestion of lead containing substances (like contaminated water) or breathing in of lead contaminated dust.
It takes a surprising amount of persistent exposure, unless someone is really stupid. Like doing oxyacetylene cutting of lead sheet without PPE, or cleaning a shooting range then not washing their hands after.
Currently worried about this. My employer asked me to help the production team with some assembly of the product which involved a good amount of soldering. Turns out it’s leaded solder and the owner doesn’t believe in venting the solder smoke to the exterior of the building. The tiny fans used are a joke. I’m in software and won’t be doing this regularly but it’s still incredibly worrisome as I don’t see employees washing their hands after handling it so it could be everywhere.
As I understand it, the "solder smoke" produced during hand-soldering does not actually contain metallic solder itself, except maybe in trace amounts. It primarily consists of vaporized organic compounds from the rosin flux core of the solder wire.
It's still not good to inhale (chronic exposure can cause asthma and other respiratory issues) but it's not really an issue of leaded vs. lead-free.
And for what it's worth, I've always anecdotally heard that solder paste is what you really want to be worried about, rather than solder wire, because it's much easier for small amounts to get smeared onto objects/surfaces and contaminate them.
It's still not good to inhale (chronic exposure can cause asthma and other respiratory issues) but it's not really an issue of leaded vs. lead-free.
And for what it's worth, I've always anecdotally heard that solder paste is what you really want to be worried about, rather than solder wire, because it's much easier for small amounts to get smeared onto objects/surfaces and contaminate them.
If you're in the US, you might consider dropping a word to OSHA.
> cleaning a shooting range then not washing their hands after
Care to elaborate? Even handling bullets should be no more posionus than handling diver weights?
Care to elaborate? Even handling bullets should be no more posionus than handling diver weights?
Also, depending on how the bullets get caught at the range (shredded tires vs sand vs steel backstops), they tend to produce a lots of fine lead dust[1].
[1] - https://youtu.be/QfDoQwIAaXg
[1] - https://youtu.be/QfDoQwIAaXg
I love those slow-mo bullet impact videos!
Also, be aware that most primers usually have some kind of heavy metal in them (lead azide, lead styphnate, mercury fulminate) though there are newer compositions using strontium and tetrazine starting to get traction. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(II)_fulminate]
Additionally, non-jacketed bullets (common with rim fire, low power pistol, blackpowder, and some other random stuff) will blast lead off the back of the bullets at the muzzle or forcing cone and into the air.
If the area is adequately ventilated it’s not really an issue. Some indoor ranges are not! Sometimes significant amounts of fine particulates can end up at shooting stations from it, or be inhaled.
That said, just wash your hands and don’t hang out in ranges that get Smokey and you’ll be fine. If you’re cleaning up a range with bad ventilation, wear a respirator rated for metal dust.
I’ve done all the high risk activities (including a decent amount of soldering with gasp leaded solder) for over 3 decades, have done that, and have tested ‘non-detectable’ for lead and mercury every time I felt like checking.
I’ve had friends who didn’t that ended up on Chelation therapy. Don’t be like them. They’re miserable.
Also, be aware that most primers usually have some kind of heavy metal in them (lead azide, lead styphnate, mercury fulminate) though there are newer compositions using strontium and tetrazine starting to get traction. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(II)_fulminate]
Additionally, non-jacketed bullets (common with rim fire, low power pistol, blackpowder, and some other random stuff) will blast lead off the back of the bullets at the muzzle or forcing cone and into the air.
If the area is adequately ventilated it’s not really an issue. Some indoor ranges are not! Sometimes significant amounts of fine particulates can end up at shooting stations from it, or be inhaled.
That said, just wash your hands and don’t hang out in ranges that get Smokey and you’ll be fine. If you’re cleaning up a range with bad ventilation, wear a respirator rated for metal dust.
I’ve done all the high risk activities (including a decent amount of soldering with gasp leaded solder) for over 3 decades, have done that, and have tested ‘non-detectable’ for lead and mercury every time I felt like checking.
I’ve had friends who didn’t that ended up on Chelation therapy. Don’t be like them. They’re miserable.
If you wash your hands with soap and water before sticking them in your mouth after any of these activities, you’ll be fine. If you don’t, I wouldn’t recommend making whatever it was a habit.
If you handled a lot of powdered/pulverized lead powder, and then stick your hands in your mouth and lick your fingers - it could conceivably cause a measurable body burden of lead even if you did it once, maybe. So don’t do that.
If you handled a lot of powdered/pulverized lead powder, and then stick your hands in your mouth and lick your fingers - it could conceivably cause a measurable body burden of lead even if you did it once, maybe. So don’t do that.
Ok ty.
"not washing their hands" being the key part. it isn't dangerous to handle diver weights or clean up a shooting range. if the traces aren't cleaned off your hands before touching the face/eyes, eating, smoking cigarettes, etc, the lead will get into the body and cause problems.
> If not, wouldn't you expect to hear about...
I've certainly heard about such:
https://www.usgs.gov/mission-areas/water-resources/science/a...
> lead, being heavier than water, drop out of the groundwater
Sodium chloride is over twice as heavy as water, and yet doesn't 'drop out' of it.
I've certainly heard about such:
https://www.usgs.gov/mission-areas/water-resources/science/a...
> lead, being heavier than water, drop out of the groundwater
Sodium chloride is over twice as heavy as water, and yet doesn't 'drop out' of it.
A bit of a bad analogy as, in water, the sodium and chloride are not bound together; rather, the ions are separately distributed throughout and wouldn't have the same density that they would have in a dry, crystal, ionically bound form.
> wouldn't you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal?
Where I live, I get periodic water quality reports in the mail, with the test results for all kinds of different contaminants.
The reports always list the typical source of contaminants; and naturally-occurring metals in the ground is very common.
Interesting artifact: A well near my childhood home has unusually high levels of chromium for the town. It's believed to be from when someone was running a car repair shop near the watershed; and they left some brake drums or similar car parts outside.
Where I live, I get periodic water quality reports in the mail, with the test results for all kinds of different contaminants.
The reports always list the typical source of contaminants; and naturally-occurring metals in the ground is very common.
Interesting artifact: A well near my childhood home has unusually high levels of chromium for the town. It's believed to be from when someone was running a car repair shop near the watershed; and they left some brake drums or similar car parts outside.
It's usually not that. It's usually the car repair shop pouring left-over chrome containing colors and derusting solutions into the ground.
Note that the half-mile statistic is connected to underwater cables, not buried cables. It is certainly an overcount, but it is probably not trivial to assess the local hydrology and the extent to which children’s play areas might be exposed to such water.
it is probably not trivial to assess the local hydrology and the extent to which children’s play areas might be exposed to such water.
Especially since there are thousands and thousands of schools in America that get their water from wells.
It doesn't seem overly-cautious to wonder about lead placed under a water course 50 years to a century ago finding its way into the groundwater supply a half-mile away.
Especially since there are thousands and thousands of schools in America that get their water from wells.
It doesn't seem overly-cautious to wonder about lead placed under a water course 50 years to a century ago finding its way into the groundwater supply a half-mile away.
Hopefully that wondering would lead to testing the water to see whether there is actually a problem.
>It doesn't seem overly-cautious to wonder about lead placed under a water course 50 years to a century ago finding its way into the groundwater supply a half-mile away.
At that point wouldn't it be so diluted that it's basically indistinguishable from background levels?
At that point wouldn't it be so diluted that it's basically indistinguishable from background levels?
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders why the telcos want us to know there's lead in the wires now.
Maybe so they have an excuse to tear the wires down and end services in areas they don't care to service anymore.
Maybe so they can get more subsidies to run fiber that they'll promise to connect people with, but won't ever need to account for.
Maybe so they have an excuse to tear the wires down and end services in areas they don't care to service anymore.
Maybe so they can get more subsidies to run fiber that they'll promise to connect people with, but won't ever need to account for.
The telco wiring in my area (Western Ohio) is a mess. I see pedestals with the cans broken open and splices exposed all over. The ILEC in my area (Frontier) is bankrupt, but the non-bankrupt ILECs in surrounding areas are doing no better with basic maintenance.
I get angry when I see it, thinking about the history of free easements, tax abatement, subsidy, and other favorable treatment that the telcos received, historically, and how they can leave this perfectly serviceable infrastructure to rot.
I get angry when I see it, thinking about the history of free easements, tax abatement, subsidy, and other favorable treatment that the telcos received, historically, and how they can leave this perfectly serviceable infrastructure to rot.
Copper facilities across the USA are past their design life. The cables themselves might be usable (if water intrusion has not happened, which is a big if), but the splice cases, splices and hardware on either end of the cable is often not doing well.
Frontier bought assets from Verizon knowing full well they were going to ride this infrastructure until it was worthless while investing as little as possible. It is no surprise the copper plant has rotted on the poles, they treated their copper and fiber plants like trash in nearly every part of their territory.
Frontier bought assets from Verizon knowing full well they were going to ride this infrastructure until it was worthless while investing as little as possible. It is no surprise the copper plant has rotted on the poles, they treated their copper and fiber plants like trash in nearly every part of their territory.
Frontier did actually surprisingly invest lots of money into their copper plant, but the copper plant had been all but ignored from the the point Bell Atlantic bought GTE.
Telco wiring is decaying here in Western PA; signal quality and reliability gets worse every year. Customer service is nonexistent, "why won't you switch to VOIP/4G?"
I am strongly on board with the subsidy theory. This wouldn't be the first time.
Looking at what this is doing to the stock price of AT&T adds another potential item to your list:
Hedge funds pushing well-timed narratives to their benefit.
Looking at what this is doing to the stock price of AT&T adds another potential item to your list:
Hedge funds pushing well-timed narratives to their benefit.
I've often thought the same thing about someone pushing this information out there simply to push the stock prices down. I'm wondering if it all will eventually blow over and if it's a good time to invest in AT&T and Verizon...
Check out some historical perspective:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System
The post-breakup structure diagram is all I needed to see.
50/50 $T/$VZ long. Ez mode.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System
The post-breakup structure diagram is all I needed to see.
50/50 $T/$VZ long. Ez mode.
The original WSJ report used soil samples underneath old power lines to determine that there were still lead-sheathed cables leaking into the environment. And based on the responses from telco’s legal/PR departments (ie denial of health risks), this isn’t a story they wanted to leak.
Yes, they probably want subsidies to remove the cable. Around here (VZ territory), they leave it to rot on the poles. Most of the area is on fiber now. If I walk around the block, I see broken copper cables, wires hanging out, squirrels nesting in the junctions, etc.
It is not a bad theory. The telecoms have been actively abandoning phone lines for years because it isn’t worth the cost for them to do so anymore, but they are still required to by law. Perhaps they think they can get the tear down and replacement with fiber subsidized.
They've probably reached a point where they're failing at a higher rate and need replacing. Leaking this info would get the government involved and the telcos can probably get the taxpayers to foot the bill replacing all of them.
The cables are near end of life and unlikely to be replaced at all, because the entirety of the copper network and its associated hardware is also near end of life.
Given the myriad forethought, procedures, standards, and quality checks with which AT&T handled their network (pre-divestiture) I'd bet a lot telco cable plant is nowhere near "end of life".
It's just at "end of profitable life".
It's just at "end of profitable life".
As someone who is well versed in that, its at the end of its practical life.
Both PIC and Lead Cable pinhole overtime, the life of areal (either PIC or Leaded) cable is 30-50 years, the life of buried cable is 50-90 - all of this cable exceeds that point, and must be replaced.
The phone switches that are connected to the cable are all near or over 40 years old, and closer to 45-50 years old in design, the spares pool is surprisingly healthy (because so many switches have been decommed) but the software that runs of these switches is also near end of life - and in the sustaining engineering phase of its lifecycle.
There may be a life for some copper cable, but it will be literally the last mile. Which is a lot smaller in scope than what we have now.
Both PIC and Lead Cable pinhole overtime, the life of areal (either PIC or Leaded) cable is 30-50 years, the life of buried cable is 50-90 - all of this cable exceeds that point, and must be replaced.
The phone switches that are connected to the cable are all near or over 40 years old, and closer to 45-50 years old in design, the spares pool is surprisingly healthy (because so many switches have been decommed) but the software that runs of these switches is also near end of life - and in the sustaining engineering phase of its lifecycle.
There may be a life for some copper cable, but it will be literally the last mile. Which is a lot smaller in scope than what we have now.
I mean, it was probably all in great shape 40 years ago. But 40 years of missed opportunities to replace cabling failing quality checks (if they were even done) is probably taking its toll. I know of many anecdotes of poor quality lines where trouble tickets end up with a pair swap which works for several months, and then you need to swap to another pair. There's only so many spare pairs, but the silver (lead?) lining is that enough customers leave that you can take their good pairs to serve the remaining customers. I've personally experienced the poor line records that mean connecting a new customer might disconnect an old customer, leading to a service call down the street.
There are also just so few customers left too.
For me as a phone nerd who would prefer to have a landline, but no longer have a good justification for it, and frankly I'm unsure if I even have a good drop anymore to my house (its not had service since 2010 - before I owned it).
I keep thinking I should reach out to AT&T and try to order services, but I just never quite get around to it.
For me as a phone nerd who would prefer to have a landline, but no longer have a good justification for it, and frankly I'm unsure if I even have a good drop anymore to my house (its not had service since 2010 - before I owned it).
I keep thinking I should reach out to AT&T and try to order services, but I just never quite get around to it.
Be prepared for sticker shock too. I recently set up my MIL with a CenturyLink landline here in WA, and it's $60/month. I could save a couple bucks a month if I declined long distance, but not many afaik. My California landline was less than $15/month with taxes when I turned it off, that was with no long distance and metered local calling (which was fine for me, I mostly wanted it for incoming calls and calls to toll free customer service).
Oh yeah, I looked up the rate catalog, 50+ a month with unbundbleable LD
It's certainly possible that this situation might sway Congress to pass some sort of lead wiring replacement act.
Beyond gross how often citizens are subsidizing the businesses that rob Peter to pay Paul...
We should be forcing the profiteers (shareholders) to repay it and be imprisoning the thieves, not paying Peter (remediation) for them.
Can tax payers also take ownership of the physical plant and sell access like we do to public airwaves? States rights should allow at least some states to do the right thing.
It is usually to conceal more important news.
GA is getting rid of lead too -- https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas#:~:text=The%20mo....
Actually little remediation has gone on, as it would cost billions to solve the problem and keep kids safe, and not many in government want to actually solve the issue. The only thing that has happened is pretty much the removal of lead from paint and gas and let nature bury the rest.
> Everyone who buys or rents an older home or even just buys paint at the hardware store is reminded of lead in paint. Most are aware of lead in pipes, especially where these pipes are present. Yet lead levels in children nationwide are still substantially higher than they should be given the mitigations that have already been done.
Things like food contamination can be tricky to stop, but we’re getting better at it. I get amazon alerts when batches of a food I buy from whole foods were found to be contaminated. That’s only happened once, but it turned out to be okay.
Worth noting that the mitigations you mentioned do work, because many kids live in the environment you describe but do not have elevated levels of lead.
Things like food contamination can be tricky to stop, but we’re getting better at it. I get amazon alerts when batches of a food I buy from whole foods were found to be contaminated. That’s only happened once, but it turned out to be okay.
Worth noting that the mitigations you mentioned do work, because many kids live in the environment you describe but do not have elevated levels of lead.
This is just an absolutely awful idea simply due to the weight.
The reason people are trying to get carbon nanotube electricity lines in the air is not because 'nano' is a cool word, but because they're really light while conducting electricity. Lead is, well, quite the opposite of that.
The reason people are trying to get carbon nanotube electricity lines in the air is not because 'nano' is a cool word, but because they're really light while conducting electricity. Lead is, well, quite the opposite of that.
> This is just an absolutely awful idea simply due to the weight.
Buried cables used to be lead jacketed before viable polymers suitable for long term use were developed in the modern era.
Buried cables used to be lead jacketed before viable polymers suitable for long term use were developed in the modern era.
Carbon nanoparticles might pose their own risk, though my intuition suggests the threat is not as immediate or great as that from lead
It would not surprise me if carbon nanoparticles could act in a similar way to asbestos, if inhaled.
This has already been shown to be true, many times.
There are significant problems with swcnts (and even more so with dwcnts or mwcnts, due to less effective macrophage breakdown from h2o2 release). But there are some applications where their use can be a large improvement. The fact that only very well trained professionals should ever come in contact with certain materials (like extremely high powered lines) makes this use case more acceptable. Additionally, concealing swcnts in a polymer and using extrusion methods of chlorosulfonic acid into carbon tetrachloride to make really compact nanowires can help quite a bit for making the product affect the public less if any problem may occur that downs the power lines.
There are significant problems with swcnts (and even more so with dwcnts or mwcnts, due to less effective macrophage breakdown from h2o2 release). But there are some applications where their use can be a large improvement. The fact that only very well trained professionals should ever come in contact with certain materials (like extremely high powered lines) makes this use case more acceptable. Additionally, concealing swcnts in a polymer and using extrusion methods of chlorosulfonic acid into carbon tetrachloride to make really compact nanowires can help quite a bit for making the product affect the public less if any problem may occur that downs the power lines.
Isn't it a problem that carbon is mostly one of the things you make nearly every resistor out of, instead of wires?
Armchair swcnts are ballistic conductors. It matters quite a lot how that carbon is oriented.
How well do they conduct? At the moment aluminium is kind of the "sweet spot" between weight, cost, and conductivity.
Ballistic conduction means 'perfect' conduction in a sense. There's no resistance. It's only for armchair swcnts though. Other metallic swcnts are also great conductors, but if you separate out the chiralities (semiconductors, etc) you might as well separate to just armchairs.
It depends on the local water table, doesn't it?
I've been following this series. It seems like the journalists are trying to make a scandal where there really isn't one. I don't see how buried cables if left undisturbed are really an issue at all. The ones in the water maybe, but even there how much lead can a single cable really leach into water such that it rises to an unhealthy level? Maybe the ones strung on poles are an issue, but even then--how much is lead really going to flake off an intact cable? Remember that in many parts of the country we still have lead water pipes and tons of lead-painted surfaces. What's the relative risk of these cables compared to, say, houses that kids live in that have accessible lead paint surfaces?
It does seem reasonable to ask that if a lead cable is overhead on poles and not in use anymore it should be pulled down. In general we shouldn't leave a ton of abandoned infrastructure up in the air on poles.
I can believe there are health issues for telco workers who historically worked with lead cables, and the telcos absolutely need to protect their current workforce from lead if they are regularly working around and disturbing this old infrastructure.
It does seem reasonable to ask that if a lead cable is overhead on poles and not in use anymore it should be pulled down. In general we shouldn't leave a ton of abandoned infrastructure up in the air on poles.
I can believe there are health issues for telco workers who historically worked with lead cables, and the telcos absolutely need to protect their current workforce from lead if they are regularly working around and disturbing this old infrastructure.
On the topic of relative risk, millions of Americans spend time at firing ranges breathing in aerosolized lead and covering themselves in lead dust. They of course wash their clothing in the same washing machine that launders their family's clothing.
Hunted meat contains a detectable level of lead, and pigs fed lead-hunted venison have a detectable rise in blood-lead levels within days. [1]
So a sub-group of the population regularly and deliberately exposes itself to quite a bit of lead. It's the largest risk factor for high blood levels in children. [2]
Seems like a potential problem. Might be worth switching to lead-free ammunition and considering what effect these decades of selective lead exposure may have had on our communities.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/
[2] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/higher-rates-of-f...
Hunted meat contains a detectable level of lead, and pigs fed lead-hunted venison have a detectable rise in blood-lead levels within days. [1]
So a sub-group of the population regularly and deliberately exposes itself to quite a bit of lead. It's the largest risk factor for high blood levels in children. [2]
Seems like a potential problem. Might be worth switching to lead-free ammunition and considering what effect these decades of selective lead exposure may have had on our communities.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/
[2] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/higher-rates-of-f...
It's not mentioned in those two sources, but almost all firearm propellant primers contain lead as an additive. And to make matters worse, it's these exhaust gases that end up all over your hands and face.
I didn't know this until I took my kids to a shooting range in Reno. Before going I had read warnings to make sure to wash their hands afterward, but it was nuts how much residue ended up on our hands after shooting only a single box of rounds; and given the feel of it, likely heavily laced with lead or other metals. I don't think I'd ever take my kids to a gun range again unless I brought my own gun (with well-maintained parts) and used lead-free ammunition--most importantly lead-free primers.
AFAIU it's much easier to find non-leaded bullets than non-leaded primers, though neither is very popular. Until very recently all the discourse on lead exposure and contamination seems to have been focused on the bullet itself.
I didn't know this until I took my kids to a shooting range in Reno. Before going I had read warnings to make sure to wash their hands afterward, but it was nuts how much residue ended up on our hands after shooting only a single box of rounds; and given the feel of it, likely heavily laced with lead or other metals. I don't think I'd ever take my kids to a gun range again unless I brought my own gun (with well-maintained parts) and used lead-free ammunition--most importantly lead-free primers.
AFAIU it's much easier to find non-leaded bullets than non-leaded primers, though neither is very popular. Until very recently all the discourse on lead exposure and contamination seems to have been focused on the bullet itself.
“ Until very recently all the discourse on lead exposure and contamination seems to have been focused on the bullet itself.”
Not without reason. Animals hunted with lead bullets often leave lead fragments in the natural environment via gut piles (if recovered) or the carcass itself (if not recovered).
Lead poisoning is one of the leading causes for death for carrion birds (who eat the carcasses/gut piles) - such as the California Condor. Because of this, wildlife preservation groups - like the Peregrine Fund - have been vocal proponents of eliminating lead bullets.
Not without reason. Animals hunted with lead bullets often leave lead fragments in the natural environment via gut piles (if recovered) or the carcass itself (if not recovered).
Lead poisoning is one of the leading causes for death for carrion birds (who eat the carcasses/gut piles) - such as the California Condor. Because of this, wildlife preservation groups - like the Peregrine Fund - have been vocal proponents of eliminating lead bullets.
You should probably wear a P100 elastomeric respirator when firing guns and have a Nomex flight suit or something you wear only at the range and wash separately. I don't think a lot of people do it though.
Unless you're in the Mojave a buried cable is, so to speak, "in the water..." what do you think roots are there to do?
Fishing weights come to mind, as do tire/wheel balancing weights.
Lead tends to stabilize in-situ in most installations over time to be fairly safe and non-reactive.
Messing with it or changing the environmental equilibrium is often what what increases risk / makes it a non-negligible risk.
See also:
EPA's embarrassing DC screw-up where replacing chlorine with a "safer" alternative caused lead chemical pathways to reverse and lead levels to spike: years of deposits into non-lead infrastructure -from (previously removed) lead pipes- suddenly became unstable and began leaching back into water due to the chemistry change. The leadfree water system suddenly had a lead problem, because some one at the EPA decided that the chlorine system was a bigger problem than it really was.
Especially when it comes to these types of (potential) remediation projects, never assume that the unknown unknowns will be harmless, or even less risky than the no-build alternative.
Messing with it or changing the environmental equilibrium is often what what increases risk / makes it a non-negligible risk.
See also:
EPA's embarrassing DC screw-up where replacing chlorine with a "safer" alternative caused lead chemical pathways to reverse and lead levels to spike: years of deposits into non-lead infrastructure -from (previously removed) lead pipes- suddenly became unstable and began leaching back into water due to the chemistry change. The leadfree water system suddenly had a lead problem, because some one at the EPA decided that the chlorine system was a bigger problem than it really was.
Especially when it comes to these types of (potential) remediation projects, never assume that the unknown unknowns will be harmless, or even less risky than the no-build alternative.
Separately, the US has a problem in that activism has largely become its own industry, existing for the sake of itself more than for its founding causes.
When an industry depends on problems to exist, problems will be always be found.
When goals and reasons-to-be are accomplished, very few seem willing to 'admit' their victory - and give up their self-important justification for whatever selfimage they've built on top their cause. So the cause is extended or a new one is invented.
"In conclusion, further study - and more research funds - is needed."
When an industry depends on problems to exist, problems will be always be found.
When goals and reasons-to-be are accomplished, very few seem willing to 'admit' their victory - and give up their self-important justification for whatever selfimage they've built on top their cause. So the cause is extended or a new one is invented.
"In conclusion, further study - and more research funds - is needed."
What are you even talking about? What "industry" depends on calling attention to lead poisoning? As best as I can tell not many people care about issues with lead.
Idk, it seems reasonably obvious that there is activism and litigation and nonprofits and bureaucracies all studying environmental issues, and these are all operated by people, many of whom get more money and attention was a result of the concerns they raise. There is some opportunity for a conflict of interest.
One question, though, is whether they take that opportunity. Another more salient question is whether the Wall Street Journal, of all the possible papers, has fallen under the influence of such groups.
And it certainly seems as if they’ve found some people with elevated lead levels in blood, and ground and water samples that exceed EPA limits.
One question, though, is whether they take that opportunity. Another more salient question is whether the Wall Street Journal, of all the possible papers, has fallen under the influence of such groups.
And it certainly seems as if they’ve found some people with elevated lead levels in blood, and ground and water samples that exceed EPA limits.
> When an industry depends on problems to exist, problems will be always be found.
If your "industry" is finding the poisons that we human are putting into the Earth, then I think it is true that problems will always be found.
If your "industry" is finding the poisons that we human are putting into the Earth, then I think it is true that problems will always be found.
If by no other means than adding things to the list constitutes a poison or how much of a given supposed poison is safe.
> Lead tends to stabilize in-situ in most installations over time to be fairly safe and non-reactive.
That didn't happen here. Those lead cables are leaching into local surface water and the environment. Although this article focuses mainly on the harm to workers.
That didn't happen here. Those lead cables are leaching into local surface water and the environment. Although this article focuses mainly on the harm to workers.
>Lead tends to stabilize in-situ in most installations over time to be fairly safe and non-reactive. Messing with it or changing the environmental equilibrium is often what what increases risk / makes it a non-negligible risk.
This is also true of heavy metal poisoning in human bodies. The treatment for metals poisoning is to ingest chelating agents which, in theory, bind to the heavy metals and carry them into the bloodstream, where they are then excreted via urine or other means. Unfortunately a sometimes side effect of this therapy is the unsettling of metals from, e.g. fat stores and the relocation of them into the brain, making things worse rather than better
This is also true of heavy metal poisoning in human bodies. The treatment for metals poisoning is to ingest chelating agents which, in theory, bind to the heavy metals and carry them into the bloodstream, where they are then excreted via urine or other means. Unfortunately a sometimes side effect of this therapy is the unsettling of metals from, e.g. fat stores and the relocation of them into the brain, making things worse rather than better
Can we start reporting on the fact that literally all small airplanes still fly using leaded gas? Live in SoCal? Cool, there are hundreds of small Cessna and similar planes flying overhead 24/7 just spewing it into the air above you.
I'm still surprised by avgas. It's like aviation is 50 years behind.
The engines and planes in general aviation are more then 50 years behind. Most small planes in the air today where made before 1980. They have been rebuilt several times, but the original manufacturing was decades ago.
That's what happens when the FAA makes it extremely expensive to get new GA aircraft approved. We're forced to fly 50 year old rust buckets, all in the name of safety
If I recall, the FAA recently approved unleaded for that use.
You've been able to fly a plane with unleaded fuel for decades. See every major airline burning jet fuel.
It won't stop the use of leaded fuel until the FAA bans it, which should have happened decades ago. Your airplane can't fly without unleaded fuel? Cool! You can stare at it in the hangar!
It won't stop the use of leaded fuel until the FAA bans it, which should have happened decades ago. Your airplane can't fly without unleaded fuel? Cool! You can stare at it in the hangar!
> You've been able to fly a plane with unleaded fuel for decades. See every major airline burning jet fuel.
Jet engines are completely different from the piston engines you'll find in general aviation (sans choppers, which mostly run on jet engines).
Piston engines need leaded fuel for lubrication as well as knock resistance, and deviating from the original certification of the engine/plane requires a type-specific certification - every model of plane you want to fly that was certified with 100LL AvGas needs to be separately tested if it can fly safely with lead-free AvGas [1].
[1] https://www.flightglobal.com/engines/faa-approves-100-octane...
Jet engines are completely different from the piston engines you'll find in general aviation (sans choppers, which mostly run on jet engines).
Piston engines need leaded fuel for lubrication as well as knock resistance, and deviating from the original certification of the engine/plane requires a type-specific certification - every model of plane you want to fly that was certified with 100LL AvGas needs to be separately tested if it can fly safely with lead-free AvGas [1].
[1] https://www.flightglobal.com/engines/faa-approves-100-octane...
JetA-burning piston aircraft exist - almost all Diamonds for instance.
General aviation is a pretty small market. I doubt the development costs can be justified. For reference Lycoming only switched away from carburetors around 2009, plus there’s the installed base of old engines being serviced.
I do think some European engines have looked at diesel though
I do think some European engines have looked at diesel though
> I doubt the development costs can be justified.
There is no other reasonable choice. Lead fuel has to go away simply because of the amount of lead that deposits all around GA airports.
There is no other reasonable choice. Lead fuel has to go away simply because of the amount of lead that deposits all around GA airports.
> It won't stop the use of leaded fuel until the FAA bans it,
Pretty much everyone in general aviation who is using leaded fuel wants to get away from it. It clogs corroborators and exhausts, requires special mitigation for spills and handling, and is generally not great.
The FAA approved and is now working to promote GAMI G100UL to replace leaded fuel in aviation, the big roadblock is passed as it is approved for all engines for which 100LL was approved for. So the phase out will go as fast as FBOs switch and GAMI can manufacture or license.
Pretty much everyone in general aviation who is using leaded fuel wants to get away from it. It clogs corroborators and exhausts, requires special mitigation for spills and handling, and is generally not great.
The FAA approved and is now working to promote GAMI G100UL to replace leaded fuel in aviation, the big roadblock is passed as it is approved for all engines for which 100LL was approved for. So the phase out will go as fast as FBOs switch and GAMI can manufacture or license.
[deleted]
I specifically decided to buy a property where there are no small airports. A lot of them run flight training schools, which are super popular because China sends all of its pilots to the western US (Oregon, CA, Arizona). If you're near a metro (or even some of the smaller towns) you're just hearing zipping all day and breathing in the lead.
Having lived directly under the flight path of an airport with tons of GA traffic, I never will again. The lead was bad, but what was fucking miserable was the pilots who took off at fucking dawn EVERY DAY and had to fly 100 ft above my apartment. Those planes are loud as fuck when on initial climb out from the runway.
Wait, wait, hold the phone:
> Once you use a soldering iron and you begin to melt it, then you begin to get gaseous lead and that can be inhaled and that's more of an exposure problem. So the question would be, in a case like that, are they properly protected when and if that lead is mobilized?
At normal temperatures, that’s Flux, not lead. “Gaseous lead?”
> Once you use a soldering iron and you begin to melt it, then you begin to get gaseous lead and that can be inhaled and that's more of an exposure problem. So the question would be, in a case like that, are they properly protected when and if that lead is mobilized?
At normal temperatures, that’s Flux, not lead. “Gaseous lead?”
It's completely an incorrect statement and this has been studied at great lengths any place there is molten lead / lead alloys. At normal atmospheric pressure, lead does not boil until over 1700 degrees C. These people constantly mistake melting point with boiling point. Unless you have very low partial pressures, there is no lead being gassed off when you melt lead at normal liquid lead temperatures.
When people 'smell' something when soldering or pouring molten lead, the are smelling aeromatics that are gassing off the materials, not lead particles suspended in air.
The overwhelming danger, and the reason so many people who did work with lead back in the day have high blood levels of lead, is simple contact via their hands with the materials. This guy was likely picking up lead lines, lead ingots to melt, leaded solder all day and then not washing his hands before eating lunch, or rubbing his eyes, etc.
In rare cases dust with lead particles could have been inhaled but this is even pretty rare unless they were literally belt sanding lead alloy metals in an enclosed space.
When people 'smell' something when soldering or pouring molten lead, the are smelling aeromatics that are gassing off the materials, not lead particles suspended in air.
The overwhelming danger, and the reason so many people who did work with lead back in the day have high blood levels of lead, is simple contact via their hands with the materials. This guy was likely picking up lead lines, lead ingots to melt, leaded solder all day and then not washing his hands before eating lunch, or rubbing his eyes, etc.
In rare cases dust with lead particles could have been inhaled but this is even pretty rare unless they were literally belt sanding lead alloy metals in an enclosed space.
> At normal atmospheric pressure, lead does not boil until over 1700 degrees C.
This argument is fallacious. It is not 100C in my house, but water is evaporating and water vapor is in the air; the air is 40% saturated with water vapor.
The vapor pressure of lead is pretty low at typical soldering temperatures, though.
This argument is fallacious. It is not 100C in my house, but water is evaporating and water vapor is in the air; the air is 40% saturated with water vapor.
The vapor pressure of lead is pretty low at typical soldering temperatures, though.
Notwithstanding the vapor pressure, there are other ways non-boiling lead can make it into the air.
Lead-core candlewicks are well studied and put tons of lead into the air as the candle burns at 500C or less
Lead-core candlewicks are well studied and put tons of lead into the air as the candle burns at 500C or less
[deleted]
Maybe they really mean aerosolized particulate lead?
They might mean that, but they'd still be wrong. Soldering is done around 75-100°C lower than temperatures where lead is anything other than melted in meaningful quantities. There is ingestion risk of lead residue on fingers (which is the reason why eating and smoking is prohibited around soldering stations), but very low inhalation risk.
Perhaps, but is generally accepted that as long as you aren’t soldering at ludicrous temperatures, the quantities are very small.
When I was taking electronics training, my soldering instructor told me most of the lead exposure was that people used to lick the tip of their soldering iron before starting heating it up, and this exposed them to lead. Now most people don't do that, but older solderers are a little... off, if you've ever met any. Rosin flux fumes are also bad and you should definitely be working under a fume hood if you do any significant amounts of soldering, even at home.
Well, we thought the same thing about aluminum [0].
[0]: https://hero.epa.gov/hero/index.cfm/reference/details/refere... "Exposure, bioavailability, distribution and excretion of aluminum and its toxicological relevance to humans"
[0]: https://hero.epa.gov/hero/index.cfm/reference/details/refere... "Exposure, bioavailability, distribution and excretion of aluminum and its toxicological relevance to humans"
On the other hand, we keep finding deleterious effects from smaller and smaller lead exposure levels.
How would it become aerosolised?
The CDC believes that: "Lead fumes are produced during metal processing when metal is heated or soldered."
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/workerinfo.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/workerinfo.htm
I am admittedly talking about electrical soldering, which the person quoted was also referring to, but there are different kinds.
You would need to set your solder gun to about (edit 750, not 1100) degrees Fahrenheit to begin truly vaporizing the lead. Which, some soldering irons are capable of, but lead solder’s lower melting point of about 400 degrees makes the risk low.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30629580
You would need to set your solder gun to about (edit 750, not 1100) degrees Fahrenheit to begin truly vaporizing the lead. Which, some soldering irons are capable of, but lead solder’s lower melting point of about 400 degrees makes the risk low.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30629580
The CDC believes a lot of fairly bonkers stuff that does not match up to reality.
If you heated solder up to the point that lead was boiling off, your circuit board would be on fire.
You cannot get lead poisoning from using leaded solder.
If you heated solder up to the point that lead was boiling off, your circuit board would be on fire.
You cannot get lead poisoning from using leaded solder.
I mean if you start licking it or chewing it you might, but normal usage just wash your hands afterward and you're fine.
You'd have to eat a lot of solder. Metallic lead reacts with fuck all, basically, which is why it's such a good material for things like roof flashing. It doesn't even react particularly with the hydrochloric acid in your stomach, producing only lead chloride (which will make its way out of your body fairly quickly) and hydrogen gas (not enough to do anything fun if you burp while smoking a cigarette, but let's not take chances eh). Metallic lead is about as bioavailable as sand.
No no, if you want to get lead into your system you've got to really try quite hard. Taking some lead and mixing it with tin won't get the job done, oh no, not even a little bit. You're going to want to make it into an organic salt, maybe by welding on a lovely big acetate and then getting that into your stomach.
Now why would you want to do a thing like that?
Well, you might be an ancient Roman, with a fondness for "defrutum", a sweet sticky confection made by boiling soured wine and grapes in a lead pot until all the water is driven off. The acetic acid rips lead out like nobody's business and gets well and truly stuck together. Oh, and it tastes really sweet too, this lead acetate, which is just the thing to liven up any Roman party if the wine's gone a bit funny in the sun.
Now you've got a lovely big sugar that your digestive system will happily squish into your sensitive tissues, where it'll break up and be on its way leaving a big fat lead atom right there with nothing to bind to, until it finds something. Oh hey, you know that sugars - even with a great big lead atom weighing them down - cross the blood-brain barrier just fine, right? You couldn't design a better way to get lead poisoning.
Now toss in some ergot mould because you won't eat the local wheat because everyone is going mad from something and it must be those wily locals poisoning you so you only eat rye shipped over from Rome in mouldy sacks, and pretty soon - between the brain damage from lead acetate and the hallucinogenic mould - you're ready to turn horses into senators, and tell your soldiers to blunder into midgie-infested marshes in the North of Scotland where they sink out of sight never to be seen again.
Lovely.
No no, if you want to get lead into your system you've got to really try quite hard. Taking some lead and mixing it with tin won't get the job done, oh no, not even a little bit. You're going to want to make it into an organic salt, maybe by welding on a lovely big acetate and then getting that into your stomach.
Now why would you want to do a thing like that?
Well, you might be an ancient Roman, with a fondness for "defrutum", a sweet sticky confection made by boiling soured wine and grapes in a lead pot until all the water is driven off. The acetic acid rips lead out like nobody's business and gets well and truly stuck together. Oh, and it tastes really sweet too, this lead acetate, which is just the thing to liven up any Roman party if the wine's gone a bit funny in the sun.
Now you've got a lovely big sugar that your digestive system will happily squish into your sensitive tissues, where it'll break up and be on its way leaving a big fat lead atom right there with nothing to bind to, until it finds something. Oh hey, you know that sugars - even with a great big lead atom weighing them down - cross the blood-brain barrier just fine, right? You couldn't design a better way to get lead poisoning.
Now toss in some ergot mould because you won't eat the local wheat because everyone is going mad from something and it must be those wily locals poisoning you so you only eat rye shipped over from Rome in mouldy sacks, and pretty soon - between the brain damage from lead acetate and the hallucinogenic mould - you're ready to turn horses into senators, and tell your soldiers to blunder into midgie-infested marshes in the North of Scotland where they sink out of sight never to be seen again.
Lovely.
Lead cable splicing was pretty bad. Here's the process of splicing an underwater cable being installed between San Francisco and ... Oakland. This was a big project at the time. Watch the cable splicers pouring molten lead over a cable while catching the extra lead by holding an asbestos pad underneath, around 2:30 into [1].
[1] https://archive.org/details/0840_Underwater_Cable_and_Other_...
[1] https://archive.org/details/0840_Underwater_Cable_and_Other_...
In addition to telephone, electrical power distribution is still accomplished using PILC cable (paper insulated, lead covered.) There's tons of it under NYC and it is still manufactured to this day. And since the insulation is oil soaked paper, there's a good chance the oil is contaminated with PCB's.
Back in high school electrician shop class we had a few sections of medium and high voltage distribution and transmission cable (The cross sections were neat to look at esp the 130kV 1000 MCM that was about 4 inches in diameter). One of which was a 1 foot length of PILC partly stripped to show the construction and mounted to a wooden base. It sat out in the open on a table covered in dust and lead oxide. After touching it our shop teacher made sure to tell us to thoroughly wash our hands.
edit: forgot to mention lead water mains that still exist. Family friend worked for the DEP and said they liked to "leave the lead be" as the harmful oxides were on the outside of the pipe and not a major threat to the water within. Disturbing the pipes was said to be a larger hazard than leaving them in service.
Back in high school electrician shop class we had a few sections of medium and high voltage distribution and transmission cable (The cross sections were neat to look at esp the 130kV 1000 MCM that was about 4 inches in diameter). One of which was a 1 foot length of PILC partly stripped to show the construction and mounted to a wooden base. It sat out in the open on a table covered in dust and lead oxide. After touching it our shop teacher made sure to tell us to thoroughly wash our hands.
edit: forgot to mention lead water mains that still exist. Family friend worked for the DEP and said they liked to "leave the lead be" as the harmful oxides were on the outside of the pipe and not a major threat to the water within. Disturbing the pipes was said to be a larger hazard than leaving them in service.
The Flint water crisis was caused by failing to perform corrosion control:
In April 2014, because of annual rate increases from the DWSD, the Flint City Council voted to join the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA), which would be developing a raw water supply pipeline from Lake Huron. The water supply contract with DWSD was subsequently terminated, and the Flint water treatment plant began treating water from the Flint River on a full-time basis and distributing the treated water to residents and other customers. When the plant went into full-time operation, the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ) did not implement corrosion control, as mandated by the LCR. Instead, the Flint water treatment plant was allowed to complete two six-month monitoring periods without corrosion control and then the MDEQ would decide if corrosion control treatment was necessary.
https://www.materialsperformance.com/articles/material-selec...
In April 2014, because of annual rate increases from the DWSD, the Flint City Council voted to join the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA), which would be developing a raw water supply pipeline from Lake Huron. The water supply contract with DWSD was subsequently terminated, and the Flint water treatment plant began treating water from the Flint River on a full-time basis and distributing the treated water to residents and other customers. When the plant went into full-time operation, the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ) did not implement corrosion control, as mandated by the LCR. Instead, the Flint water treatment plant was allowed to complete two six-month monitoring periods without corrosion control and then the MDEQ would decide if corrosion control treatment was necessary.
https://www.materialsperformance.com/articles/material-selec...
I read the article. This seems to be about a former lineman who had a high blood lead level in the 1980s, and also a study where line workers doing soldering were found to have high lead levels in their blood.
Reading this, my first and biggest question is : how did the lead get into their blood?
Having spent ~20 years soldering in the electronics industry on a daily basis I had always assumed that lead isn't getting into your body unless you ingest it. There are ways to ingest lead that we know about : flaking lead paint becomes dust and can be breathed in; lead compounds from burned gasoline can be breathed in; lead in water that has traveled through lead pipes (and possibly copper pipes soldered with lead) can be drunk.
But how do you ingest solid or liquid lead? Disappointing the article never addressed this. It seems the authors heard "worked with lead" and "lead in blood" and just said "yeah that seems obvious".
Wouldn't we see very high levels of lead poisoning in plumbers? (before the move away from lead solder they were heating the stuff with a blowtorch, often in cramped unventilated conditions). Were studies done to eliminate the possibility that the people above ingested lead in some other way?
Reading this, my first and biggest question is : how did the lead get into their blood?
Having spent ~20 years soldering in the electronics industry on a daily basis I had always assumed that lead isn't getting into your body unless you ingest it. There are ways to ingest lead that we know about : flaking lead paint becomes dust and can be breathed in; lead compounds from burned gasoline can be breathed in; lead in water that has traveled through lead pipes (and possibly copper pipes soldered with lead) can be drunk.
But how do you ingest solid or liquid lead? Disappointing the article never addressed this. It seems the authors heard "worked with lead" and "lead in blood" and just said "yeah that seems obvious".
Wouldn't we see very high levels of lead poisoning in plumbers? (before the move away from lead solder they were heating the stuff with a blowtorch, often in cramped unventilated conditions). Were studies done to eliminate the possibility that the people above ingested lead in some other way?
Lead solder turns into lead oxide fumes which get absorbed into your blood through your lungs.
https://warwick.ac.uk/services/healthsafetywellbeing/guidanc...
Plumbers don't do much soldering and use very little solder when they do. And lead solder has been banned in any pipe that carries drinking water since the 80s.
https://warwick.ac.uk/services/healthsafetywellbeing/guidanc...
Plumbers don't do much soldering and use very little solder when they do. And lead solder has been banned in any pipe that carries drinking water since the 80s.
I think this is unlikely to happen at typical soldering temperatures. The lead vaporization point is over 3000 degrees F.
https://ehs.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/EHS-0167.pdf
https://ehs.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/EHS-0167.pdf
You don't need to vaporize lead to form lead oxide.
> https://ehs.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/EHS-0167.pdf
The first page of this link you shared mentions lead oxide:
> During the soldering process in the form of lead filler metals, lead oxide fumes are formed and excessive exposure to lead oxide fumes can result in lead poisoning.
> https://ehs.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/EHS-0167.pdf
The first page of this link you shared mentions lead oxide:
> During the soldering process in the form of lead filler metals, lead oxide fumes are formed and excessive exposure to lead oxide fumes can result in lead poisoning.
It also says:
"Because of the relatively low temperatures in electronic soldering, fumes from these metal constituents themselves are not normally a concern"
"Because of the relatively low temperatures in electronic soldering, fumes from these metal constituents themselves are not normally a concern"
> are not normally a concern
Seems like a squirrely way of saying that it might be dangerous, but nobody has been inclined to check.
Seems like a squirrely way of saying that it might be dangerous, but nobody has been inclined to check.
> lead oxide fumes which get absorbed into your blood through your lungs
Ok, but if this happens wouldn't it be easy to run a study to show a correlation between working in solder-exposure occupations and accumulated blood lead level?
There are millions of workers who would have been exposed in this way (e.g. me), not just a few folks working for big-bad-AT&T.
Ok, but if this happens wouldn't it be easy to run a study to show a correlation between working in solder-exposure occupations and accumulated blood lead level?
There are millions of workers who would have been exposed in this way (e.g. me), not just a few folks working for big-bad-AT&T.
> there are millions of workers who would have been exposed in this way (e.g. me)
Good suggestion. Sounds like you can add a new data point. How are your blood lead levels?
Good suggestion. Sounds like you can add a new data point. How are your blood lead levels?
> Plumbers don't do much soldering and use very little solder when they do.
You can also use silver solder on copper.
You can also use silver solder on copper.
> Plumbers don't do much soldering
Today no. But in the past of course they did. Every house has 1/2" and 3/4" copper pipe with sweated solder joints. At least 10's of them in each house, if not 100 or more.
Today no. But in the past of course they did. Every house has 1/2" and 3/4" copper pipe with sweated solder joints. At least 10's of them in each house, if not 100 or more.
> I had always assumed that lead isn't getting into your body unless you ingest it.
If this were true, would leaded gasoline have been an issue?
If this were true, would leaded gasoline have been an issue?
Leaded gasoline is an issue because it's a very bioavailable form of lead. It contains tetraeythyl lead, which is extremely volatile and likes to absorb into your cells.
Solid lead, on the other hand, is much more inert. The main danger of working with elemental lead is breathing in dust if you're grinding it.
Solid lead, on the other hand, is much more inert. The main danger of working with elemental lead is breathing in dust if you're grinding it.
As someone who has spent a majority of his career in Telecom, I think the risk is wildly overstated.
First - only 20-60% of the cable in the wild is lead (depending on the locality, and age of construction), from the mid to late 60's on, PIC (or other similar plastic covered cable) was installed. Also, as capacity was added in between 1980 and 2000, lead cable was removed from service over time.
Second - Yes, You're gonna get exposed to lead working in the field on wired telecom, I have some measure of exposure, lead is not good - but its a risk to employees who work on the legacy wired plant.
"Shalini Ramachandran: I talked to a number of women who worked in AT&T central offices doing lead soldering work, connecting lead sheathed cables from the outside with the internal central office machinery. They actually showed gloves with the fingertips cut off because they had to do sort of small, intricate work to melt the solder with a soldering iron. So, they describe breathing in those fumes. They're not being sort of fans or exhaust around and feeling headaches often every day coming home from work and gastrointestinal issues, nausea, constipation, infertility issues, miscarriages. One woman had developed kidney cancer and had to have a kidney removed."
Though I see one glaring issue with the way the mention things here - by the time a cable reached the main frame of a CO, they were stripped from their sheath - yes they wore fingerless gloves because you needed to be able to wrap the fine copper wire around the lug on the frame, and then solder it with an iron who's tip is roughly the size of a human thumb. That wire though is copper, and the wire from the field was on the back side of the frame, not the front side where the regular work was done to run jumpers. That said, the solder users was lead based.
I have no doubt AT&T studied blood lead levels among employees (AT&T had a how-to document on sweeping), they had a document for every purpose, and studied every aspect of their operations. Those studies were done just before we understood how harmful lead is, it was known to be not good, but not how bad even safe levels of lead could be for humans.
Third - while there is a risk to the general public, its generally infinitesimally small - meaning there is probably more lead in the soil from cars going by for 40-50 years with leaded gasoline, than there is from the buried lead cable underground, or the areal lead cable overhead on the poles.
Fourth - Most of this plant is either going to be abandoned or replaced within 20ish years. Copper last mile is a declining business, even AT&T (nee SBC) is moving to a FTTP from a FTTN architecture. Meaning outside of some remediation costs, removing it from the ground and/or poles will be enough to solve this.
First - only 20-60% of the cable in the wild is lead (depending on the locality, and age of construction), from the mid to late 60's on, PIC (or other similar plastic covered cable) was installed. Also, as capacity was added in between 1980 and 2000, lead cable was removed from service over time.
Second - Yes, You're gonna get exposed to lead working in the field on wired telecom, I have some measure of exposure, lead is not good - but its a risk to employees who work on the legacy wired plant.
"Shalini Ramachandran: I talked to a number of women who worked in AT&T central offices doing lead soldering work, connecting lead sheathed cables from the outside with the internal central office machinery. They actually showed gloves with the fingertips cut off because they had to do sort of small, intricate work to melt the solder with a soldering iron. So, they describe breathing in those fumes. They're not being sort of fans or exhaust around and feeling headaches often every day coming home from work and gastrointestinal issues, nausea, constipation, infertility issues, miscarriages. One woman had developed kidney cancer and had to have a kidney removed."
Though I see one glaring issue with the way the mention things here - by the time a cable reached the main frame of a CO, they were stripped from their sheath - yes they wore fingerless gloves because you needed to be able to wrap the fine copper wire around the lug on the frame, and then solder it with an iron who's tip is roughly the size of a human thumb. That wire though is copper, and the wire from the field was on the back side of the frame, not the front side where the regular work was done to run jumpers. That said, the solder users was lead based.
I have no doubt AT&T studied blood lead levels among employees (AT&T had a how-to document on sweeping), they had a document for every purpose, and studied every aspect of their operations. Those studies were done just before we understood how harmful lead is, it was known to be not good, but not how bad even safe levels of lead could be for humans.
Third - while there is a risk to the general public, its generally infinitesimally small - meaning there is probably more lead in the soil from cars going by for 40-50 years with leaded gasoline, than there is from the buried lead cable underground, or the areal lead cable overhead on the poles.
Fourth - Most of this plant is either going to be abandoned or replaced within 20ish years. Copper last mile is a declining business, even AT&T (nee SBC) is moving to a FTTP from a FTTN architecture. Meaning outside of some remediation costs, removing it from the ground and/or poles will be enough to solve this.
I worked in telecom in the 1990's. A politician made a big deal of lead from old home cables back then. My boss explained that the lead had leeched out already, and pulling up the cabled just disturbed / unearthed lead contaminated soil that was better left in place.
There is no non-manual-labor way to remove the lead contaminated soil with the cables. Any effective remediation will kill many workers.
The same was true of asbestos remediation. It was better to leave it in place, but that never stopped a well meaning idiot from contaminating a whole building pulling out perfectly safe and effective insulation.
There is no non-manual-labor way to remove the lead contaminated soil with the cables. Any effective remediation will kill many workers.
The same was true of asbestos remediation. It was better to leave it in place, but that never stopped a well meaning idiot from contaminating a whole building pulling out perfectly safe and effective insulation.
One only needs to go into a Central Office to know how at risk you are for any number of toxic chemicals. The more shocking part of this is that there aren't more studies that link cancer among telecom engineers that work closely in Central Offices and around legacy telecom infrastructure.
Having been a former lineman at PacBell (yes, I'm old), I can tell you that there should be no surprise when you're working in old buildings, with old legacy systems, in a building with zero windows.
Having been a former lineman at PacBell (yes, I'm old), I can tell you that there should be no surprise when you're working in old buildings, with old legacy systems, in a building with zero windows.
Most of the old phone people I'm aware of lived long, healthy, productive lives, often living many decades beyond retirement. Those who did not, in my own personal experience, dont really have a single cause of death.
Aren’t there similar problems with lead covered underground electrical cables throughout the US, particularly within large city networks?
Time to buy telecom stocks?
I encourage everyone to read this series. It's fantastic reporting from the last great newspaper, with beautiful site design and a well-woven narrative.
Just wait until journalists figure out we used lead extensively in plumbing...
Edit: I meant that we have bare lead pipes in the ground along with water being sent through them. I also think there was lead used in solder on copper pipes until the 70s or something like that. Surely these are more likely reasons for higher lead accumulations than (poorly) insulated lead wires in the ground?
Lead alloy was also used as the primary electronics solder, and of course in gas and paint in higher quantities so I really was getting the feeling these articles are drawing weird conclusions that telephone cables were the cause of the lead they are finding.
Edit: I meant that we have bare lead pipes in the ground along with water being sent through them. I also think there was lead used in solder on copper pipes until the 70s or something like that. Surely these are more likely reasons for higher lead accumulations than (poorly) insulated lead wires in the ground?
Lead alloy was also used as the primary electronics solder, and of course in gas and paint in higher quantities so I really was getting the feeling these articles are drawing weird conclusions that telephone cables were the cause of the lead they are finding.
Just wait until journalists figure out we used lead extensively in plumbing...
I guess you haven't read a newspaper in the last 70 years.
I guess you haven't read a newspaper in the last 70 years.
They probably were too busy worrying about the lead type at the printers…
Unless you are a civil engineer or an activist, probably the reason you know about lead plumbing is because journalists extensively wrote about it for decades.
Yes, journalism is not perfect, sometimes they err catastrophically, but let's not discount all the good things good journalists have done and are still doing.
Yes, journalism is not perfect, sometimes they err catastrophically, but let's not discount all the good things good journalists have done and are still doing.
I believe plumbers used plumbum.
immediately made me think of this package I used to use when I did Python development
https://plumbum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
https://plumbum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/lead-cables-telecoms-att-toxic-... https://archive.is/MA0wG
“Aerial lead cabling runs alongside more than 100 schools with about 48,000 students in total. More than 1,000 schools and child-care centers sit within half a mile of an underwater lead cable, according to a Journal analysis using data from research firm MCH Strategic Data.”
We took lead out of gas (except general aviation). Everyone who buys or rents an older home or even just buys paint at the hardware store is reminded of lead in paint. Most are aware of lead in pipes, especially where these pipes are present. Yet lead levels in children nationwide are still substantially higher than they should be given the mitigations that have already been done.
These cables are likely a huge portion of what’s left, and almost nobody has heard of them. Even when they’re right in front of your face hanging from a telephone pole.