Azorius 0.1(flak.tedunangst.com)
flak.tedunangst.com
Azorius 0.1
https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/azorius-01
30 comments
I don't understand at all what problem ActivityPub actually solves. To my mind it's a similar spirit as Blockchain which is equally as impressive as it is useless. There are tens of thousands of people smart enough to clone the basic functions of Twitter or Reddit but features don't make the platform. Unless you are a master at digital marketing and can solve moderation and monetization better than everyone else, you're not going to code a better platform.
As far as I can tell activity-pub is what you get when you want a store and forward type message transport but are too embarrassed to base it on smtp. so you base it on http/json as that is the "modern" way of doing things.
With apologies ahead of time because I suspect this post will end up as an incoherent rant about capitalism.
So activity pub is the common language of a federated system sort of like smtp is the common language of a federated system. or html is the common language of a federated system(html is strange however as it's transport model is inverted compared to the others, it moves the user to the message rather than the message to the user)
The reason federated systems work is the same reason capitalism works, and not incidentally the reason federated systems don't work is the reason capitalism does not work. my conclusion is that capitalism is a federated system of doing business.
I suspect the main reason federated systems work as well as they do is that there is individual ownership over the pieces, each person caring for their own piece. Some will win some will lose. It is not nearly as efficient as a centrally controlled system, but is far better at dynamically adapting to changes.
On the whole I think federated systems end up bringing the greatest good to the most people, but they can go very wrong, mainly this happens when one player gets too big and stops playing by the rules.
On the subject of reddit specifically. on one layer reddit is just a wep page, it provides the forum discussion pattern to people. The web is a federated system, there are many forum discussion patterns available on the web. when reddit fails to provide your forum needs you move somewhere else.
On another layer, reddits success was in no small part in that it provided a sort of ownership over each forum, and each owner was responsible for their own forums success, and when reddit starts infringing on this ownership it feels like something is being stolen from you.(At least I think this is what is going on, I have to admit I am only an incidental user of reddit and the whole situation confuses me) Where if the system were more federated from the start it would be more like actual ownership and less like feudalism.
So activity pub is the common language of a federated system sort of like smtp is the common language of a federated system. or html is the common language of a federated system(html is strange however as it's transport model is inverted compared to the others, it moves the user to the message rather than the message to the user)
The reason federated systems work is the same reason capitalism works, and not incidentally the reason federated systems don't work is the reason capitalism does not work. my conclusion is that capitalism is a federated system of doing business.
I suspect the main reason federated systems work as well as they do is that there is individual ownership over the pieces, each person caring for their own piece. Some will win some will lose. It is not nearly as efficient as a centrally controlled system, but is far better at dynamically adapting to changes.
On the whole I think federated systems end up bringing the greatest good to the most people, but they can go very wrong, mainly this happens when one player gets too big and stops playing by the rules.
On the subject of reddit specifically. on one layer reddit is just a wep page, it provides the forum discussion pattern to people. The web is a federated system, there are many forum discussion patterns available on the web. when reddit fails to provide your forum needs you move somewhere else.
On another layer, reddits success was in no small part in that it provided a sort of ownership over each forum, and each owner was responsible for their own forums success, and when reddit starts infringing on this ownership it feels like something is being stolen from you.(At least I think this is what is going on, I have to admit I am only an incidental user of reddit and the whole situation confuses me) Where if the system were more federated from the start it would be more like actual ownership and less like feudalism.
I think 80% of complaints about capitalism are complaints about the fundaments of economics. Audience is scarce, network effects are scarce, advertisers are scarce, quality contributors are scarce, brand recognition is scarce. How do you acquire all of these at enough scale to make a compelling product and sustainable platform? I don't see how ActivityPub actually does any of that. I can very clearly see how venture capital and/or short-term shareholder value are actively harmful.
I think there's two avatars I'd look at for having "solved" most of this. One is Craigslist. They don't really occupy the same place in the world they used to, but they scaled by orders of magnitude without changing their core identity. And they did it because Craig Newmark was content to walk away with $100M and his reputation in tact rather than chasing every penny. The other is Wikipedia. Probably the single most valuable thing on the internet and operated purely as a non-profit. A non-profit that rakes in like 10X it's operating budget in donations. Neither of these do everything right, but they work. And they do it with a very centralized framework for operations that sets clear boundaries in which their volunteer contributors can operate. I really see that as a more promising goal. We need a fully non-profit internet. Ones that set really clear and explicit guidelines for usage and are beholden to their mission above investors. But also, organizations with publicly accountable leaders who set policy and stick to it. And leaders who can still run their orgs like a business with a tech team, a marketing team, accountants, HR, lawyers and all that jazz.
I think there's two avatars I'd look at for having "solved" most of this. One is Craigslist. They don't really occupy the same place in the world they used to, but they scaled by orders of magnitude without changing their core identity. And they did it because Craig Newmark was content to walk away with $100M and his reputation in tact rather than chasing every penny. The other is Wikipedia. Probably the single most valuable thing on the internet and operated purely as a non-profit. A non-profit that rakes in like 10X it's operating budget in donations. Neither of these do everything right, but they work. And they do it with a very centralized framework for operations that sets clear boundaries in which their volunteer contributors can operate. I really see that as a more promising goal. We need a fully non-profit internet. Ones that set really clear and explicit guidelines for usage and are beholden to their mission above investors. But also, organizations with publicly accountable leaders who set policy and stick to it. And leaders who can still run their orgs like a business with a tech team, a marketing team, accountants, HR, lawyers and all that jazz.
It's amazing how far off the mark so many talented coders are when it comes to understanding the masses, how they think and what they want.
Guys...it's not that hard to do. Stop thinking so hard. Stop thinking you know a better way. CLONE REDDIT, just without the idiot running the place. It was working great until he screwed everything up.
Guys...it's not that hard to do. Stop thinking so hard. Stop thinking you know a better way. CLONE REDDIT, just without the idiot running the place. It was working great until he screwed everything up.
Reddit the place was great, but it was because of the contributers and despite the system.
The network effect is hell of a drug. Most contributers are/were there, because it seemed like the most relevant place to put their information, and that was because of the other people on the platform, not because the system was particularily sophisticated or well designed.
Now the reddit design has the advantage that people already know it, but on the other hand if you change communities anyways why not try a new thing?
The network effect is hell of a drug. Most contributers are/were there, because it seemed like the most relevant place to put their information, and that was because of the other people on the platform, not because the system was particularily sophisticated or well designed.
Now the reddit design has the advantage that people already know it, but on the other hand if you change communities anyways why not try a new thing?
This goes for most "clones" that I see. What's baffling how many people set out to recreate something and then completely drop the ball on this part.
Worried that you'll lack a way to differentiate yourself from all the other clones? Well, don't be, because it's the same situation as with Android—every handset vendor seemed to think they couldn't possibly just take this free gift and ship it stock as-it-comes, since their competitors would come around eat their lunch! In reality, nobody else was doing that, so being unadulterated was a differentiator. This didn't seem to stop anyone, though, who all went on and poured enormous resources into the pursuit of an elusive value-add that in reality was more like value-addn't.
So, I agree: JUST CLONE THE THING.
(Still not convinced? Fine, try this instead: start working on a stealth clone right now, and then in 6 to 18 months when you've reached your goal and the real thing changes which makes everyone hate it, well then hey, look at you! You've got exactly what everyone wants. Alternatively, if you chance upon something that gets shuttered, go ahead and help yourself to the abandoned trademark, too. Trademark law is not like copyright law, after all; it doesn't last forever—only so long as there's someone willing to enforce it.)
Worried that you'll lack a way to differentiate yourself from all the other clones? Well, don't be, because it's the same situation as with Android—every handset vendor seemed to think they couldn't possibly just take this free gift and ship it stock as-it-comes, since their competitors would come around eat their lunch! In reality, nobody else was doing that, so being unadulterated was a differentiator. This didn't seem to stop anyone, though, who all went on and poured enormous resources into the pursuit of an elusive value-add that in reality was more like value-addn't.
So, I agree: JUST CLONE THE THING.
(Still not convinced? Fine, try this instead: start working on a stealth clone right now, and then in 6 to 18 months when you've reached your goal and the real thing changes which makes everyone hate it, well then hey, look at you! You've got exactly what everyone wants. Alternatively, if you chance upon something that gets shuttered, go ahead and help yourself to the abandoned trademark, too. Trademark law is not like copyright law, after all; it doesn't last forever—only so long as there's someone willing to enforce it.)
I think what everyone is getting wrong is that the key pain point to solve is moderation. Solve moderation first.
This and Honk are great because they dare to be different visually and functionally. Ted’s casual criticisms of ActivityPub and the federated software that uses the standard are also informative. I think that his experience as an OpenBSD developer gives his work a different edge and appeal compared to others.
Would love to see it without having to install it. Is there a public running instance somewhere?
Found one here: https://az1.azorius.net/
Wow it's so fast and to-the-point. This is how software should be written.
If there is more interest I would be willing to host a public instance, but it doesn’t seem like this is getting the attention to make it worth setting it up.
Maybe it's not getting the attention because there is no public demo instance?
Good point
I knew this was from the author of honk...
Something to note: GotoSocial currently rejects the Announces (this is GtS's fault) and Akkoma accepts but then later deletes them (this is probably Akkoma's fault). Investigations are continuing...
[deleted]
Curious about the name. Being from the Azores myself.
It's explicitly discussed at the end of the post:
> According to the MTG fandom, “the Azorius Senate mediates and regulates the activities of all of the other guilds and of the plane despite their numerous decrees being ignored. The Azorius Senate are characterized as being aloof, bureaucratic, excessively formalistic, and fastidious, spending hours upon hours with legal documents and ensuring action, if any should occur, stringently adheres to protocol.” However, this is irrelevant, since azorius is unrelated to MTG.My guess is it's a Magic: The Gathering reference.
While we are at magic: What is the problem of "using imagemagick in 2023"?
Most folks don't realize it runs arbitrary user-submitted code by default, well-crafted or malicious, and does a variety of things that should be checked.
Crucial: https://www.imagemagick.org/script/security-policy.php
Crucial: https://www.imagemagick.org/script/security-policy.php
I was among that folks, thank you!
[deleted]
Consider r/redditseppuku
And as such I have to admit I was initially baffled where federation(activity pub) enters into the equation. as forums don't really need federation.
But was stuck in the mental model of the web forum, I think what is going on is that this is more like usenet, the ur forum, which is pretty cool.