The vital art of talking to strangers (2021)(economist.com)
economist.com
The vital art of talking to strangers (2021)
https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2021/07/10/the-vital-art-of-talking-to-strangers
174 comments
https://archive.ph/Y8Fju
“Children are taught never to speak to unknown grown-ups, especially those regarded by their parents as untrustworthy.”
Not my kids, they talk to anyone. When they ask me a question about someone I encourage them to ask the person. When the want something I encourage them to ask (respectfully). They always, always get nice responses and I get friendly conversations afterwards. Think of yourself, how would you react? Well 99.999 of people would react the same.
Not my kids, they talk to anyone. When they ask me a question about someone I encourage them to ask the person. When the want something I encourage them to ask (respectfully). They always, always get nice responses and I get friendly conversations afterwards. Think of yourself, how would you react? Well 99.999 of people would react the same.
I'm generally in a mood such that someone starting some small talk to me turns around my whole day for the better. Of course, if there is some back and forth etc the effect is stronger..
I would react politely to your children and, if further engaged by you, continue to converse with you politely.
I would also genuinely, deeply, and silently dislike every second of the forced interaction.
99.999% of people might react the same, but that doesn’t mean we all feel the same.
I would also genuinely, deeply, and silently dislike every second of the forced interaction.
99.999% of people might react the same, but that doesn’t mean we all feel the same.
catiopatio says:>"I would also genuinely, deeply, and silently dislike every second of the forced interaction."<
No verbal interaction is forced, especially one initiated by a child toward an adult.
Act as you wish. Young people need to see examples of persons who are abnormal, maladjusted or even insane so that they can recognize them and learn how to deal with them in the future. Their Dad can explain that too.
No verbal interaction is forced, especially one initiated by a child toward an adult.
Act as you wish. Young people need to see examples of persons who are abnormal, maladjusted or even insane so that they can recognize them and learn how to deal with them in the future. Their Dad can explain that too.
But who will explain to the young people that perhaps it is their Dad that is maladjusted or even insane? That their Dad is operating under a very silly pretense that children will be just as able and willing to politely accept social queues from adults? Or that verbal interactions with children, while not technically forced, are pretty strongly incentivized to go one particular way due to an implicit social contract? No one explains that to them in my experience. Because of that, some of those kids even grow up to write pompous, self-absorbed comments that show their lack of understanding of these dynamics, like yours, on this website.
> a very silly pretense that children will be just as able and willing to politely accept social queues from adults?
Well no, they probably wont a lot of the time. That's somewhat the point though. To learn you have to practice. To learn you have to fail.
Well no, they probably wont a lot of the time. That's somewhat the point though. To learn you have to practice. To learn you have to fail.
I’m neither abnormal, maladjusted, or insane, and behaving politely towards children in such a circumstance is basic decency.
Your assumptions certainly appear to demonstrate the inappropriate views many have towards those of us who do not particularly value their company.
Your assumptions certainly appear to demonstrate the inappropriate views many have towards those of us who do not particularly value their company.
If you don’t want to talk to them, why not just say so? “I’m afraid I’m busy, I hope you understand” or “Excuse me, but I would prefer to mind my own business”. They might not love the response, but no sane person would continue the conversation after that.
Also, out of sheer curiosity, may I ask why you would dislike the interaction?
Also, out of sheer curiosity, may I ask why you would dislike the interaction?
It’s generally easier to carry the conversation to its natural conclusion — people tend to respond inordinately negatively to being bluntly told when others are not interested in a conversation.
As to your last question, the “why” is simple. I find small talk to be both pointless and exhausting. I prefer to be left alone, and for those with nothing to say to say nothing.
As to your last question, the “why” is simple. I find small talk to be both pointless and exhausting. I prefer to be left alone, and for those with nothing to say to say nothing.
If you walk the footsteps of a stranger you will learn the things you never knew, you never knew. I certainly respect your attitude but a bit of interest in the unknown and bit of kindness can bring you a lot in life. But of course, you have the right to close yourself to unknown people. It is a thing of these times. Close yourself from others, open up to the toiletscroller, it's easier, more instant reward.
Your message merely says a great deal about you and your judgement of those of us who aren’t interested in making small talk with you.
You have no wisdom (great or small) to impart while using others to assuage your need for external social validation.
You have no wisdom (great or small) to impart while using others to assuage your need for external social validation.
Interesting perspective. However, I’m not sure what it is that’s blunt about saying “no” in a polite manner. People have the right to attempt conversation, but you have no obligation to engage. Oh well, I guess you have a strategy already.
Sounds like you need to work on your disengagement skills.
Disengagement works because not everyone out there is trying to talk to everyone. If you change cultural norms such that every child should talk to strangers a lot, it'll be tiring to have to do this "disengagement" 10 times a day.
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The cultural differences about this are vast even in the United States. In the part of the Midwest where I grew up, strangers would come up and offer compliments about your outfit or car, make friendly small talk in the grocery store checkout line, or at least offer a quiet "hi" and smile when passing on the sidewalk. In the Pacific Northwest, we try not to even look at each other when passing, although people are friendly when something does get us talking.
This is pretty on the nose for me. My wife and I moved from a Chicago suburb to Portland about 5 years ago. The amount of effort required just to strike up a convo with strangers (and keep it going) was pretty significant. We especially missed how acceptable giving people "the business" (i.e. harmless joking or razzing to lower someone's guard and make them feel comfortable) was so common where we grew up. You could give someone sh*t for something trivial then end up helping them remodel their basement.
It was isolating for a while until we sort of gave up and accepted that people are just different out here. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're moving back to Chicago (for other reasons). We're looking forward to not having to jump through hoops just to have a meaningful convo with a stranger again.
It was isolating for a while until we sort of gave up and accepted that people are just different out here. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're moving back to Chicago (for other reasons). We're looking forward to not having to jump through hoops just to have a meaningful convo with a stranger again.
Giving people shit, in a friendly way, is part of the Midwestern use of irony. They like to say the opposite of what they mean when it's assumed to be understood that is the case. "You're getting here soon, right?" "Nah, I'm stopping at a spa in Gary, Indiana." Something like that.
Those who aren't used to it often don't appreciate it.
Those who aren't used to it often don't appreciate it.
100%. That is a perfect example and I'm looking forward to more of it when we move back. In addition to irony, there's also exaggeration. My wife thinks it takes me longer than normal to tie my shoes, so whenever we're about to go somewhere she'll say something like "We're leaving in 20 minutes so you should have started putting your shoes on 10 minutes ago."
And which area of Portland? I've had generations of neighbors who I've never spoken with, or just hello'd. None that I've even sat down to dinner with.
We're in NE (Eliot neighborhood). We've lived in our current place for about 3 years and have also barely spoke with our neighbors. I think I've only seen the next door neighbors about 4 times.
For the record, I'm not trying to get into a 45 minute convo. It would just be nice to have a little friendly banter from time to time. I appreciate that different places have different cultural norms, otherwise the planet would be a very boring place. But getting consistently iced out by strangers is kind of a bummer.
Edit: typo
For the record, I'm not trying to get into a 45 minute convo. It would just be nice to have a little friendly banter from time to time. I appreciate that different places have different cultural norms, otherwise the planet would be a very boring place. But getting consistently iced out by strangers is kind of a bummer.
Edit: typo
Which area/suburb of Chicago?
We had a house in Villa Park. I grew up in Tinley Park.
Orland Park, represent! :)
Nice! I spend most of my adolescence at Orland Square. Tinley Park folks went to Orland to shop and Orland Park folks went to Tinley to buy a car.
This matches my personal experience. When I moved from Boston to Austin it was like night and day how different interactions with strangers were. Strangers in Boston kept to themselves and when you approached them it would have an air of “what are you trying to sell me?” in which their feet were already pointed away from you and they were prepared to keep walking.
On the other hand, Texans are far more open to speak with strangers and shoot the shit with people in public. There’s less rush to keep moving and people are far more open to chatting.
My theory is that population density may have an effect on this behavior. Boston is far more dense and when you ride the train or bus everyday people keep to themselves. It’s far more emotionally draining to keep interacting with everyone that you meet so people conserve their energy.
On the other hand, Texans are far more open to speak with strangers and shoot the shit with people in public. There’s less rush to keep moving and people are far more open to chatting.
My theory is that population density may have an effect on this behavior. Boston is far more dense and when you ride the train or bus everyday people keep to themselves. It’s far more emotionally draining to keep interacting with everyone that you meet so people conserve their energy.
Density is attractive to individuals who want to exploit as many other people as efficiently as possible.
For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money, either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time. Even those interactions could have always just been a ruse to see if I have a watch worth stealing, or as a distraction to help enable pickpocketing.
Since smartphones became widespread and nearly everybody has access to the time and directions on their own, pretty much 100% of the time I've been approached by strangers in public is because they want me to give them money. One person mistook me for somebody they knew.
It's just not worth me spending any time responding to random strangers because it's almost guaranteed they just want money.
For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money, either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time. Even those interactions could have always just been a ruse to see if I have a watch worth stealing, or as a distraction to help enable pickpocketing.
Since smartphones became widespread and nearly everybody has access to the time and directions on their own, pretty much 100% of the time I've been approached by strangers in public is because they want me to give them money. One person mistook me for somebody they knew.
It's just not worth me spending any time responding to random strangers because it's almost guaranteed they just want money.
> Density is attractive to individuals who want to exploit as many other people as efficiently as possible.
> For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time.
That's selection bias.
You are interacting with the most desperate, entrepreneurial, and lost people, who are not a random and unbiased sample of the whole city.
> For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time.
That's selection bias.
You are interacting with the most desperate, entrepreneurial, and lost people, who are not a random and unbiased sample of the whole city.
This doesn't really explain the PNW social freeze in places like Bellingham tho.
What part of Austin are you in? I unfortunately moved to the yuppie part of east 6th and it’s decidedly less friendly than other places I’ve lived.
Density is a factor in this for sure, but I think weather/climate is also a factor. It gets cold in Boston in the winter for example, and in the PNW it's raining and on the cooler side for a good chunk of the year. In those climates people tend to want to get back indoors quickly and not loiter around, and that carries over even into the warmer months.
Try going to Minnesota or Wisconsin. People are extremely friendly and want to chat. It’s almost a cliche.
I think it’s something other than weather.
I think it’s something other than weather.
No one is friendly in urban areas because you are getting accosted / hustled so often. If a stranger tries to talk to me I have to give an ocular pat down and risk assessment before engaging beyond a skeptical glance.
> No one is friendly in urban areas
Yes, this is mostly an urban/rural divide. I've lived in several small New England towns where people talk to each other in public all the time.
But I've also lived in Boston. And I've learned that if a stranger strikes up a conversation in Boston, there are two possibilities:
1. They need directions or emergency aid.
2. Or they have absolutely no grasp of appropriate social norms, and I am about to have a deeply weird conversation. At best.
In theory, I am perfectly happy to speak with strangers on the subway. In practice, I do not wish to hear about how lizard people rule the world.
Yes, this is mostly an urban/rural divide. I've lived in several small New England towns where people talk to each other in public all the time.
But I've also lived in Boston. And I've learned that if a stranger strikes up a conversation in Boston, there are two possibilities:
1. They need directions or emergency aid.
2. Or they have absolutely no grasp of appropriate social norms, and I am about to have a deeply weird conversation. At best.
In theory, I am perfectly happy to speak with strangers on the subway. In practice, I do not wish to hear about how lizard people rule the world.
Dead set, you should give the weirdos a go. If you listen to them, they'll often have some genuine wisdom, and they usually don't mind if you laugh at their crazy theories or disagree.
Are you sure that you don't want to make some extra money on the side by joining my MLM? You can do so from the comfort of your vacation home timeshare! And if something happens to you, do you really have the term life insurance that you absolutely need?
> I have to give an ocular patdown
hold it right there, jabroni
hold it right there, jabroni
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The PNW can get to talking eventually but it’s like pulling teeth before it catches.
Maybe a better analogy is starting a lawnmower.
Maybe a better analogy is starting a lawnmower.
I’m inthe PNW and feel this is largely situation dependent. Was camping in Oregon last weekend and was surprised by how many different groups of campers were conversing at length with one another. When on/around my boat at the marina it’s common for folks to chat openly.
In my neighborhood it’s very much the opposite and there’s little/no eye contact and chatter.
In my neighborhood it’s very much the opposite and there’s little/no eye contact and chatter.
Socialization in the PNW is highly hobby/activity oriented. It's immediate common ground and usually a recreational context.
Day to day is more much reserved and insular as we go about our business.
Day to day is more much reserved and insular as we go about our business.
Growing up in Oregon, it's just the way it was that we socialized with people we met through work/church/school/hobby, but not neighbors. I've lived next door to people for decades and not even met them face-to-face.
Many years ago, I was riding on a nearly empty city bus. A guy got on and sat not too far away. After a bit, he looked my way and sidled over to be in conversation distance and said, "Excuse, I moved here from Florida about two months ago. Nobody here will talk to me, and I'm starting to go crazy. Is there something wrong with me?"
Many years ago, I was riding on a nearly empty city bus. A guy got on and sat not too far away. After a bit, he looked my way and sidled over to be in conversation distance and said, "Excuse, I moved here from Florida about two months ago. Nobody here will talk to me, and I'm starting to go crazy. Is there something wrong with me?"
That's what I've noticed, too -- even casual trail walkers are much more likely to greet you and smile.
Is that why most advice you see online is to go rock climbing or hiking to meet friends?
I wouldn't say it's PNW specific where that's true but in my experience those types of things are great ways to meet people and build social relationships. It could also be through any other sort of recurring activity like friday night magic or a local code meetup etc.
Edit: the downside of this, in my experience as well, is getting pigeon-holed in some activity with others. Especially when something like alcohol is involved
Edit: the downside of this, in my experience as well, is getting pigeon-holed in some activity with others. Especially when something like alcohol is involved
I've found that campers/hikers anywhere are generally very approachable.
For sure, one of the best parts to me about being in a National park for example is how happy and stoked on life everyone is
Because every one knows they'll never have to see each other again.
It might be a factor, but I don't think that's the main reason. If you're an outdoorsy type, you have that immediate common ground with fellow campers, and have a whole host of starter questions pertaining to that interest that will usually kickstart an entire conversation. Same with the marina-goers: boats are an interest that you can start a convo with. Makes it easy.
Funny this is mentioned and maybe there's some truth to it. One thing that struck me about the culture from an extended trip to Mexico City a few years ago is how often people say "hasta luego"/"see you later" for transactions - even if they're total strangers. I found it very warming and a contrast to where I'm from. It makes sense as a farewell but think people take it more literally - to the point where people have responded "uh not really" to my own "see you later".
One of the funniest lines of Dumb and Dumber to me is "well big gulps eh, see you later!" [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_j5tDuakKU
One of the funniest lines of Dumb and Dumber to me is "well big gulps eh, see you later!" [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_j5tDuakKU
The replies to this comment illustrated it well, but yes, I would agree in general. It just gets tiring when you have to go do something to have a simple conversation.
i.e, random convos in bars here are not a thing - or at least not comparable to e.g the east coast of America.
i.e, random convos in bars here are not a thing - or at least not comparable to e.g the east coast of America.
Don’t people go to bars to socialize??
I have never experienced talking to a stranger at a bar - one goes with ones friends, and gets to know them better, but nobody known to nobody ever gets added to the conversation.
What? That sounds really strange. Nearly every time I’m at a bar I end up in a conversation with someone new.
I've been in bars all over the world, ranging from Tokyo to NYC to SF to now Seattle - with plenty of other cities in between.
If you'll pardon my french here: the PNW is the most clique-filled bar experience I have experienced worldwide and it's really very boring to deal with. You can make it work, but it winds up being more work than is ideal.
If you'll pardon my french here: the PNW is the most clique-filled bar experience I have experienced worldwide and it's really very boring to deal with. You can make it work, but it winds up being more work than is ideal.
I live in a small mountain town now, and it's unthinkable you would walk past someone on the sidewalk and not say hi.
Walking your dog ( its cute and small) makes a big difference.
It also reduces the number of people with bad intentions who will approach you. A dog may be cute and small, but they are also fast, bitey, barky and very good on picking up threats.
Maybe, though I’ve had a group of high school aged kids larger than me threaten to kick my small dog, and I was genuinely confused how to act. On the one hand, I didn’t want my dog to get hurt. On the other hand, I wanted to confront them even though it would have been a losing battle and a threat to my dog’s safety. If I was alone I would have acted differently. But so would they.
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The hej thing is common in some Scandinavian countries, but people don't strike up conversations with each other nor do they make new friends easily.
'Hei-hei' here where I live in Norway. Or 'God morgen'. Or more likely 'morgen-morgen', which is pronounced something like morn-morn. Much like in England where we might say 'Morning!' with a smile.
> Or 'God morgen'
pronounced goo-morn in Danish, and written godmorgen :D
pronounced goo-morn in Danish, and written godmorgen :D
Geographical differences certainly ring true but I think it’s a bit of a generational thing as well?
I think it’s a sunlight thing
The article mentions "Strangers on a Train" which I've never seen or read but I've had a number of really interesting encounters from train talk. It's a natural place to end up in a scenario where you could chat with someone for a decently long time if you both choose to do so. A takeaway I always remind myself is that you never know what's right next to you.
Last month someone asked me which track the train leaves from. I answered and that turned into chatting with someone from Lebanon visiting the US who was nearing the completion of their PhD in theoretical physics mixed with quantum computing. Out of no where a 90 minute conversation ensued around programming, life in different countries and a bunch of other assorted topics.
Last month someone asked me which track the train leaves from. I answered and that turned into chatting with someone from Lebanon visiting the US who was nearing the completion of their PhD in theoretical physics mixed with quantum computing. Out of no where a 90 minute conversation ensued around programming, life in different countries and a bunch of other assorted topics.
Can confirm that trains are an amazing place to meet people. I commute on the Amtrak Northeast Regional and have made 3 regular acquaintances with whom I've had long conversations.
Never would have happened on a plane or or on the highway.
Never would have happened on a plane or or on the highway.
I sometimes overcompensate for anxiety by being chatty and over familiar, but since I’ve had kids it’s also behaviour that I think is important for them to see. It makes my day when I have a positive interaction with a stranger but I also want my kids to know people are mostly kind and interesting and it’s okay to feel confident around them.
Having kids is a great way to lower the barrier. As a parent with autism ('introvert') it is also a great way to overstep my boundaries. Like, I have to, even if I don't want to. My secret weapons are smiling and talking to my kid.
Fwiw I feel the same. I don’t want my kids to learn stranger danger, I want them to know most people are kind and helpful.
I grew up in a small town, with a family who was at church every single Sunday (and if there was a fish fry or social, we were there too).
My dad grew up in the same town, with a similar family situation. And as a result, he knew everyone. He used to drive me absolutely crazy whenever we'd go out because no matter where we went, he'd bump into someone and wind up in a 30 minute chat.
But as an adult I realized it was hugely important for my own social skills to witness and get pulled into those conversations.
I'm an introvert (I take after my mother in this respect), but I think I'm a pretty decent small talker, and since my own kids have started getting bigger I've been trying to make an effort to overcome the friction I feel to opening up to new people so that I can demonstrate some of what my dad did. For the most part I actually enjoy talking with people, but I do really have to push myself to get started with conversations sometimes.
My wife and I actually just forced ourselves to attend a birthday party for a neighbor that we'd been invited to tonight. Our kids landed there ahead of us so our hands were forced. We ended up having a great time and got such a warm greeting from the host (sometimes it can really surprise me how happy a person is to see us, haha).
tl;dr: It's definitely worth the effort to push past the friction sometimes.
My dad grew up in the same town, with a similar family situation. And as a result, he knew everyone. He used to drive me absolutely crazy whenever we'd go out because no matter where we went, he'd bump into someone and wind up in a 30 minute chat.
But as an adult I realized it was hugely important for my own social skills to witness and get pulled into those conversations.
I'm an introvert (I take after my mother in this respect), but I think I'm a pretty decent small talker, and since my own kids have started getting bigger I've been trying to make an effort to overcome the friction I feel to opening up to new people so that I can demonstrate some of what my dad did. For the most part I actually enjoy talking with people, but I do really have to push myself to get started with conversations sometimes.
My wife and I actually just forced ourselves to attend a birthday party for a neighbor that we'd been invited to tonight. Our kids landed there ahead of us so our hands were forced. We ended up having a great time and got such a warm greeting from the host (sometimes it can really surprise me how happy a person is to see us, haha).
tl;dr: It's definitely worth the effort to push past the friction sometimes.
I’ve spent years of therapy trying to overcome my fear of talking to strangers. Mostly it just feels inappropriate and unwanted; like I would be intruding on people. I can talk to strangers when there’s an appropriate social context (e.g. clerks / service people). But lacking the right context, it feels deeply uncomfortable.
Has anyone overcome this problem? Where would you go to interact with strangers–importantly where there’s an appropriate social context that permits interacting.
Has anyone overcome this problem? Where would you go to interact with strangers–importantly where there’s an appropriate social context that permits interacting.
Hi! I did. This is what worked for me.
First: Work a job that is socially embedded. Restaurants, grocery stores, front desk retail, anything customer service related. Getting comfortable with people has a weird out-of-order solution where if your discomfort is visible, the interaction will sour; find something that forces a fix to the initial discomfort, like the jobs above. They'll act as a shim that'll let you bypass the initial anxiety.
Second: The emotions you wear on your face are what perpetuates a conversation. If you can find a reason--not act, not fake--to want to talk to someone, to learn about them, they will immediately, unconsciously pick up on it, and return that excitement. Conversely, if you don't trust someone, or think they don't want to talk to you, they wont want to talk to you, and they won't find you trustworthy, either. It's a counterinruitive, ready-fire-aim thing. You don't need to be perfect at this, you just need to be aware of it. People are excellent at vetting intentions.
Third: The idea that there's somewhere you can go that will make socialization easy is a farce. Interaction is "permitted" everywhere, and you can try it anywhere. Go for several short conversations instead of putting all your effort into one. You should be fishing for enthusiasm: if you get no effort back, then it is unwanted. Drop it and try again with someone else.
First: Work a job that is socially embedded. Restaurants, grocery stores, front desk retail, anything customer service related. Getting comfortable with people has a weird out-of-order solution where if your discomfort is visible, the interaction will sour; find something that forces a fix to the initial discomfort, like the jobs above. They'll act as a shim that'll let you bypass the initial anxiety.
Second: The emotions you wear on your face are what perpetuates a conversation. If you can find a reason--not act, not fake--to want to talk to someone, to learn about them, they will immediately, unconsciously pick up on it, and return that excitement. Conversely, if you don't trust someone, or think they don't want to talk to you, they wont want to talk to you, and they won't find you trustworthy, either. It's a counterinruitive, ready-fire-aim thing. You don't need to be perfect at this, you just need to be aware of it. People are excellent at vetting intentions.
Third: The idea that there's somewhere you can go that will make socialization easy is a farce. Interaction is "permitted" everywhere, and you can try it anywhere. Go for several short conversations instead of putting all your effort into one. You should be fishing for enthusiasm: if you get no effort back, then it is unwanted. Drop it and try again with someone else.
Literally any event/gathering is a great place to start.
The whole point of bringing groups together is to encourage people to interact. It’s awkward for everyone, but you can make it less awkward for others by just being friendly.. complimenting someone, or even just asking a simple question to get some engagement.
As long as you are respectful, friendly, and not pushy, everyone will respect you back.
Try to find some local gatherings in your own community, maybe a church potluck (they won’t care if you’re not religious, they are just happy you are there) .. maybe a local game shop has some DND evenings, or just find something that aligns with your personal interests.
To improve your nervousness about speaking, toastmasters or a Dale Carnegie class are both good options as well.
The whole point of bringing groups together is to encourage people to interact. It’s awkward for everyone, but you can make it less awkward for others by just being friendly.. complimenting someone, or even just asking a simple question to get some engagement.
As long as you are respectful, friendly, and not pushy, everyone will respect you back.
Try to find some local gatherings in your own community, maybe a church potluck (they won’t care if you’re not religious, they are just happy you are there) .. maybe a local game shop has some DND evenings, or just find something that aligns with your personal interests.
To improve your nervousness about speaking, toastmasters or a Dale Carnegie class are both good options as well.
Go work retail somewhere that doesn't try to hard-sell people.
Most places will start by giving you some training materials on how to initiate friendly, non-threatening interactions with the customers. These are basically to burn some non-business cycles with the customer to prove that you're not trying to hard-sell them by using aggressive and manipulative techniques on them[1].
There are a lot of open-ended, safe topics you'll use for this. But once you get comfortable with the technique, you'll realize that you could use almost any question. Even rather specific ones like, "What's your favorite sandwich" can start a perfectly fine conversation with someone. Most people like new, unpredictable utterances and as long as you present it as non-threatening it can lead to a fruitful conversation.
Along with this you'll learn to time your speech to provide plenty of spaces where your interlocutor can cut away if they so wish. E.g., if you've told 3 pithy little stories which were each less than 15 seconds, they will feel at ease staying for one more before they go away. If on the other hand they aren't able to predict whether your next story is going to be a fun 10 seconds or an excruciatingly dull 5 minute rabbit hole, things are going to get awkward real quick.
Finally, if you don't listen you won't sell shit so you will have a nice daily scorecard on your progress.
1: It's amazing how well this works. Hard-selling commissions must be so razor thin that the salespeople can't even spend 30 seconds to build normal rapport with another human being. I've literally never had the experience of an employee starting out as a human being and then pivoting to aggressive/manipulative tactics. But maybe all the salespeople who excel at that are employed by big pharma and since I'm not a doctor I don't have contact with them.
Most places will start by giving you some training materials on how to initiate friendly, non-threatening interactions with the customers. These are basically to burn some non-business cycles with the customer to prove that you're not trying to hard-sell them by using aggressive and manipulative techniques on them[1].
There are a lot of open-ended, safe topics you'll use for this. But once you get comfortable with the technique, you'll realize that you could use almost any question. Even rather specific ones like, "What's your favorite sandwich" can start a perfectly fine conversation with someone. Most people like new, unpredictable utterances and as long as you present it as non-threatening it can lead to a fruitful conversation.
Along with this you'll learn to time your speech to provide plenty of spaces where your interlocutor can cut away if they so wish. E.g., if you've told 3 pithy little stories which were each less than 15 seconds, they will feel at ease staying for one more before they go away. If on the other hand they aren't able to predict whether your next story is going to be a fun 10 seconds or an excruciatingly dull 5 minute rabbit hole, things are going to get awkward real quick.
Finally, if you don't listen you won't sell shit so you will have a nice daily scorecard on your progress.
1: It's amazing how well this works. Hard-selling commissions must be so razor thin that the salespeople can't even spend 30 seconds to build normal rapport with another human being. I've literally never had the experience of an employee starting out as a human being and then pivoting to aggressive/manipulative tactics. But maybe all the salespeople who excel at that are employed by big pharma and since I'm not a doctor I don't have contact with them.
Honest Q:
What kind of therapy do you look for for things like this? As someone deeply inverted, prone to "creatively interpreting" things in a negative light, who dwells on imagined sleights, etc. I've thought maybe I need some professional help. But I'm kind of afraid of talking to people about my issues in general so I don't know what kind of therapist would work for me.
What kind of therapy do you look for for things like this? As someone deeply inverted, prone to "creatively interpreting" things in a negative light, who dwells on imagined sleights, etc. I've thought maybe I need some professional help. But I'm kind of afraid of talking to people about my issues in general so I don't know what kind of therapist would work for me.
CBT is common and often covered by health insurance. I've been doing talk therapy for 3 years and I've found helpful for all kinds of things.
The most important (and hardest) part is finding a therapist you trust.
The most important (and hardest) part is finding a therapist you trust.
Love yourself first.
Love yourself first. If you truly believe that you have value;
that when you open your mouth and speak to others, you brighten their day;
that when other people meet you, they are happier or smarter than they were before they met you;
then it is your natural obligation to talk to other people (don't dehumanize them by calling them strangers), because you are giving them the gift of your own special human light.
Love yourself first. If you truly believe that you have value;
that when you open your mouth and speak to others, you brighten their day;
that when other people meet you, they are happier or smarter than they were before they met you;
then it is your natural obligation to talk to other people (don't dehumanize them by calling them strangers), because you are giving them the gift of your own special human light.
I randomly said "Hi" and chatted very briefly about my kid and the apartment to a random young woman in the elevator. On the way out she literally did a little hop and a skip and in a chirpy tone she said "Yay! Interaction!"
I realised that after the COVID lockdowns people were so starved for contact with other people that any interaction would make their day. You don't need a pandemic for that, you can always make peoples' day just a bit better by saying hello.
I realised that after the COVID lockdowns people were so starved for contact with other people that any interaction would make their day. You don't need a pandemic for that, you can always make peoples' day just a bit better by saying hello.
I also feel awkward when a situation is new to me, keep repeating talking to strangers until you became used to it, that is how it works, that is how we make horses be calm and not freak out when they see plastic bags.
You can interact with strangers everywhere! In a queue in supermarket, in a football stadium or in a train.
If they don't want to talk you should be able to recognize it instantly.
If they don't want to talk you should be able to recognize it instantly.
It's better to learn to meditate, which should reduce the feelings of fear first.
Reading this from an airport boarding area coming back from a conference, and I couldn't agree more. I feel like my social skills of talking to strangers have atrophied during COVID, and now I'm trying my best to exercise those social muscles again. It really requires deliberate practice.
(Working in IT) I love laptop stickers for this. Whenever I'm returning from a conference a quick look around the lounge will reveal plenty of people with laptop stickers that are an easy to to startup a conversation. "Oh you're into $LANG/$TOOL, did you go to $CONF too?".
Laptop stickers are a perfect means to signal who you want to talk to, and who you don't, without saying anything.
And in the end, it feels good and fresh. Just like any other (meaningful) skill, decent social skills put forth significant effects on one's awareness of their local surroundings, and with good social skills, invaluable experiences. I've struggled with it for the best half of my life, and later ignored the need to take action and improve. I moved on to finding out the subtle beauty of just pulling up a conversation with a completely new person, of course our perspectives and opinions might differ, and that's where I see the beauty and without it, the world wouldn't have been so dynamic so I think.
I'm always surprised that so few people on planes talk to each other.
It is amazing how a talk to the person next to you on a plane can turn a boring, multiple hour long flight into a nice experience that feels way shorter.
It is amazing how a talk to the person next to you on a plane can turn a boring, multiple hour long flight into a nice experience that feels way shorter.
I imagine it's because if the conversation is terrible you're still stuck together for potential hours. It's high risk medium reward.
Not really, if the conversation is not going well then you just do your own thing that you would have done, if you hadn't have tried talking.
I've had many fantastic conversations with people on planes and few meh ones, it's deffo worth putting a bit of effort in.
where is the risk?
I've had many fantastic conversations with people on planes and few meh ones, it's deffo worth putting a bit of effort in.
where is the risk?
Some people don’t take the cue that you’re done talking, and will continue to try to talk to you for the entire flight. Combine that with the fact that some of us are uncomfortable overtly shutting someone down, so we are stuck with nodding and trying unsuccessfully to go back to reading our book.
good point,
I would just put on some headphones and read in that situation
I always have some noise cancelling headphones where ever I travel, great for reducing the noise of screaming kids and people trying to facetime
I would just put on some headphones and read in that situation
I always have some noise cancelling headphones where ever I travel, great for reducing the noise of screaming kids and people trying to facetime
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I find a good book or movie makes the plane ride feel shorter. Talking to the person next to me so often ends up in an awkward situation when the conversation becomes tedious and boring, but it would be rude to just stop talking to them and move on to my book.
If I dont start talking to the person, I don’t have that problem.
If I dont start talking to the person, I don’t have that problem.
In the context of chatting with strangers rather than someone you know, I’ve never felt it awkward for the conversation to trail off and both parties move on to something else.
Sure, but in my experience the person I am talking to wants to keep the conversation going longer than I do, and they won't let the conversation trail off.
It happens. Some people don’t take cues and will continue to talk to you forever.
Yes, but usually in those situations you can actually move on to something else. One a plane, you're forcibly stuck there. No, "Hey, it was nice talking to you, I'll see you around!" option.
On the other hand, I’ve seen not an insignificant number of cases where someone overstepped a boundary by forcing a conversation on someone who was clearly not into it. I think it’s ok to try, but given the context, cultural differences, legal requirement to stay in your assigned seat, it might be easy to get confused about consent.
Where is there a legal requirement to stay in your assigned seat? I've switched seats with people plenty of times on airplanes, or simply moved into empty rows. If you want to switch you can simply ask. (That is, if you're not afraid to talk to strangers!)
I fly 10-15 times a year and I have seen an empty seat on a flight maybe once.
I don't fly as often as you. Maybe 6-8 times a year. But I usually try to travel on days/times/routes that I think will be quiet. Like, if I'm going to Vegas, I'll leave on a Tuesday night after a holiday weekend. Internationally, there used to be a lot of half-empty planes. Admittedly, I haven't seen as many empty rows since covid constricted the industry.
Did the people who you saw do this mid-flight/mid-unwanted-conversation, in order to escape their chatty neighbors, or was this more in the early phases of the flight when people were getting settled?
When people see my seat and see that it’s better than theirs, and simply ask me for it, sometimes I cave in in the interest of being nice. It’s cool that they want a nice gift from me, but even if I say a polite “no,” it makes me feel defensive about occupying a seat that I picked for a reason, under the same rules by which they picked theirs.
When people see my seat and see that it’s better than theirs, and simply ask me for it, sometimes I cave in in the interest of being nice. It’s cool that they want a nice gift from me, but even if I say a polite “no,” it makes me feel defensive about occupying a seat that I picked for a reason, under the same rules by which they picked theirs.
Usually early in a flight, and once it's established that there are some empty seats - that is, occupying an empty one rather than asking someone to switch. Although I once got on a 12-hour red eye flight that was full, settled in and, before takeoff, had a girl a few rows in front of me come back and politely ask the man next to me if he'd switch seats with her. She didn't like the company up there, I guess. He agreed, and she and I ended up hitting it off and sharing a hotel room at our destination. Which is admittedly a rather one-off situation...
I've also had the opposite situation, where I was desperate to switch but couldn't. The worst case was when I got the last seat on a flight and found myself between this completely asshole older couple where, it came out, the man would only fly in a window seat and his wife would only sit on the aisle. They bickered at each other over me for 3 hours as if I wasn't even there, and both refused to switch with me, going so far as to claim they both got airsick if they sat in a middle seat. Obviously, it wasn't even worth asking anyone else on the plane to switch, but I've never wanted to kill anyone as much.
I've also had the opposite situation, where I was desperate to switch but couldn't. The worst case was when I got the last seat on a flight and found myself between this completely asshole older couple where, it came out, the man would only fly in a window seat and his wife would only sit on the aisle. They bickered at each other over me for 3 hours as if I wasn't even there, and both refused to switch with me, going so far as to claim they both got airsick if they sat in a middle seat. Obviously, it wasn't even worth asking anyone else on the plane to switch, but I've never wanted to kill anyone as much.
Somehow I feel that changed recently (post-COVID?).
I remember having lots of random conversations with my seatmates on planes, and I’m not the type to talk to strangers myself.
It used to be normal to always ask something along the lines of “where are you headed?” and maybe let that evolve into a chat about shared experiences about cities and places. I still remember some of the fascinating people I met this way and will never see again.
But in the last couple of years all my flights have been purely transactional where not a single casual word is ever exchanged with anyone.
I remember having lots of random conversations with my seatmates on planes, and I’m not the type to talk to strangers myself.
It used to be normal to always ask something along the lines of “where are you headed?” and maybe let that evolve into a chat about shared experiences about cities and places. I still remember some of the fascinating people I met this way and will never see again.
But in the last couple of years all my flights have been purely transactional where not a single casual word is ever exchanged with anyone.
The best conversation I ever had on a plane was with an elderly French couple. They didn't speak English and I know maybe half a dozen words of French. They eventually successfully communicated to me that they're taking a month-long holiday at a sort-of private island where there's these bungalows where you can stay isolated from civilisation. No Internet, no electricity, and you have to fish for your dinner. Groceries are via a guy on a canoe that turns up once a day to sell you whatever you need.
It was fascinating and amazing how with hours with nothing else to occupy us, we overcame boredom by exchanging this story despite the language barrier.
It was fascinating and amazing how with hours with nothing else to occupy us, we overcame boredom by exchanging this story despite the language barrier.
When I was in grad school, I would catch up reading journal papers on the plane and keep to myself, but finally on two separate occasions it sparked lengthy conversation, because the other person was an engineer or a mathematician.
I would suggest it’s simply because flights are often much longer than a subway ride. Making small talk for six, eight, twelve hours isn’t really fun for anyone.
actually it used to be like that in earlier days of airliners.
it was a social experience.
but those days also had a darker side, like having a dress code for passengers...
but those days also had a darker side, like having a dress code for passengers...
Darker? Sounds like a much brighter side...
I was just telling someone how I wish there were higher expectations for personal hygene at airports. I've had many flights made significantly more miserable by smelly people who obviously haven't showered recently. A very slight dress code, like no sweatpants or tank tops, would go a long way towards encouraging people to wash themselves and wear clean clothes before they sit 6 inches away from me for 5 hours.
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>I was just telling someone how I wish there were higher expectations for personal hygene at airports
And let's not forget public transport...
And let's not forget public transport...
What's dark about that? I wish they'd bring back a dress code.
They say talking to strangers helps you work on social anxiety, and that people really won't remember you, but I get the impression from this thread that people will remember you for the rest of their lives and tell all their friends about how weird you were.
It takes alot to be memorably weird, no unhinged political takes, conspiracy theories, don't start crying, don't talk about your near death experiences.
Anyway what does it matter? Those all happened to me, I suspect they're living their lives indifferent of my opinion.
Anyway what does it matter? Those all happened to me, I suspect they're living their lives indifferent of my opinion.
I doubt gregarious people need more data to cold start social interactions (I certainly don’t)
Similarly, non social people aren’t that way because the data suggests it’s better, and data isn’t going to change that
Rather some mix of biological differences in attention, cognitive arousal styles and environmental conditioning determine sociality
The more interesting question to me is “what are the environmental and structural contexts that maximize ‘high engagement’ prosociality?”
With the follow on “via what means would we modify our current environment to realize that optimization”
Similarly, non social people aren’t that way because the data suggests it’s better, and data isn’t going to change that
Rather some mix of biological differences in attention, cognitive arousal styles and environmental conditioning determine sociality
The more interesting question to me is “what are the environmental and structural contexts that maximize ‘high engagement’ prosociality?”
With the follow on “via what means would we modify our current environment to realize that optimization”
I very much agree. I would consider myself to be more asocial than average, though certainly not aggressively so. The types of sentiments expressed in this article are usually written by very social people who see conversation as some inherent good. I think you are in the minority of such social butterflies in terms of checking that assumption.
For an example, take this quote:
> But that is not the whole story. In mid-life and beyond people can still experience the joy of a random meeting, however short, which somehow touches a nerve.
What exactly is the joy? Is that joy not something I can obtain more easily via the “traditional” social channels I’ve cultivated over the course of my life thus far? And won’t a social interaction in one of those channels have a much greater chance of lasting positive impact given that person is more likely to be someone I interact with regularly, enabling me to build off that initial interaction over time?
Moreover, what’s the downside of the encounter? I suspect a lot of asocial people like myself strongly dislike the much more common awkwardness and self-doubt that accompany a social interaction that goes poorly. Is enduring a lot of that really worth the few instances where you feel a fleeting sense of connection?
Putting effort into that social interaction also means I will have less energy to put into other pursuits that mean more to me: my marriage, playing piano, reading, career goals, riding my bike, existing friendships, etc.
I don’t disagree with the article necessarily, but I do think it’s mostly an “ode to random social encounters” more than a serious attempt to make a case for why people not predisposed to doing so should try to have more random social encounters.
The questions you ask in your last two sentences really get at the interesting stuff. But of course they are too nuanced and complex to answer in any comprehensive, generalized way within an easily digestible length.
For an example, take this quote:
> But that is not the whole story. In mid-life and beyond people can still experience the joy of a random meeting, however short, which somehow touches a nerve.
What exactly is the joy? Is that joy not something I can obtain more easily via the “traditional” social channels I’ve cultivated over the course of my life thus far? And won’t a social interaction in one of those channels have a much greater chance of lasting positive impact given that person is more likely to be someone I interact with regularly, enabling me to build off that initial interaction over time?
Moreover, what’s the downside of the encounter? I suspect a lot of asocial people like myself strongly dislike the much more common awkwardness and self-doubt that accompany a social interaction that goes poorly. Is enduring a lot of that really worth the few instances where you feel a fleeting sense of connection?
Putting effort into that social interaction also means I will have less energy to put into other pursuits that mean more to me: my marriage, playing piano, reading, career goals, riding my bike, existing friendships, etc.
I don’t disagree with the article necessarily, but I do think it’s mostly an “ode to random social encounters” more than a serious attempt to make a case for why people not predisposed to doing so should try to have more random social encounters.
The questions you ask in your last two sentences really get at the interesting stuff. But of course they are too nuanced and complex to answer in any comprehensive, generalized way within an easily digestible length.
I wish more people would talk to me on trains planes or wherever else. If ever something like that does happen it usually really brightens my day.
You might ask why I don't start such conversations. I simply do not think im capable. I wish I were, but ive spent a great deal of stress trying to get myself to talk freely at things like conferences, parties, etc. I just can't do it. This affliction I think is more and more common.
You might ask why I don't start such conversations. I simply do not think im capable. I wish I were, but ive spent a great deal of stress trying to get myself to talk freely at things like conferences, parties, etc. I just can't do it. This affliction I think is more and more common.
Try the book The Charisma Myth, it has some great exercises to help you do stuff like talking to strangers. You have to do the exercises though
There is stuff there that can help you get people to talk to you without initiating the conversation yourself
That book changed my life
There is stuff there that can help you get people to talk to you without initiating the conversation yourself
That book changed my life
I have the same issue as GP, and the Charisma Myth book has sat, unread, in my bookshelf for a year. I also bought the audiobook with my Audible trial, still unlistened. Self help books have a tendency to feel hollow and unsatisfying by the time you reach the end, but I really wish I could stop overthinking the process of striking a chat with a complete stranger. I am quite pleasant and I believe witty once the conversation gets going, but by God, I couldn't start a conversation to save my life.
I'll try to read that book, hopefully I'm not let down by the hope there is a social magic trick I have never been privy to.
I'll try to read that book, hopefully I'm not let down by the hope there is a social magic trick I have never been privy to.
Try just reading the intro. It gives you 3 very simple exercises that work surprisingly fast and are pretty easy to do
I’d recommend to not read any further until you’ve done the exercises, every chapter has 1-3 different ones
Reading the book might help you understand some things about yourself or about people, but by far the most important thing is to do the exercises
I’d recommend to not read any further until you’ve done the exercises, every chapter has 1-3 different ones
Reading the book might help you understand some things about yourself or about people, but by far the most important thing is to do the exercises
There's something quite funny about reading a book, an activity usually enjoyed alone sans conversations, about well, conversations.
Thanks for the recommendation, I will give it a try.
Thanks for the recommendation, I will give it a try.
For sure. However, the most important thing is not reading the book, but doing the exercises
If you could do just one thing, I’d recommend only reading the intro and practicing the 3 tips/exercises as much as possible until they become a habit
If you could do just one thing, I’d recommend only reading the intro and practicing the 3 tips/exercises as much as possible until they become a habit
I often start conversations with random people around. It feels liberating to be able to do so, I recommend it. Now and then I learn something interesting. Oftentimes, I start the conversation but also have the last word. Which feels frustrating. You can't have it all.
I really identify with this article.
I find the modern "autopilot" social life tends to put me in touch with much the same people. Whether that's through meeting similar friends of friends, similar socioeconomic people through work, or algorithmically-determined similar people through social media or dating apps.
I put a conscious effort to live in a large city and interact with the people around me every day, and sometimes I'm called weird for it. But I think it's weirder that we move around these cities and treat everyone as "strangers to be ignored" until the moment we meet up with our target social group, and suddenly everyone these is "someone interesting and worth talking to".
I find the modern "autopilot" social life tends to put me in touch with much the same people. Whether that's through meeting similar friends of friends, similar socioeconomic people through work, or algorithmically-determined similar people through social media or dating apps.
I put a conscious effort to live in a large city and interact with the people around me every day, and sometimes I'm called weird for it. But I think it's weirder that we move around these cities and treat everyone as "strangers to be ignored" until the moment we meet up with our target social group, and suddenly everyone these is "someone interesting and worth talking to".
Not so long ago, I was having my first cup of coffee in a hotel restaurant. A woman sat down directly across from me and started off with how nice it was to have someone to chat with.
Um. No. I was polite, but...no. I had no interest in learning who she was, why she was there, or what she did for a living. I heard all of that anyway. Look, I haven't put on my social facade yet and I am not interested.
You're next to me on the train? I have zero interest in talking to you.
Um. No. I was polite, but...no. I had no interest in learning who she was, why she was there, or what she did for a living. I heard all of that anyway. Look, I haven't put on my social facade yet and I am not interested.
You're next to me on the train? I have zero interest in talking to you.
Yeah, people are wierd. I don't know what kind of narciscism you need to have to think you and what you have to say is interesting to someone else. I don't strike up random conversations because:
a) I'd have to listen to them discuss (probably) the footy, or their Rav-4. That's incredibly tedious.
b) They sure don't browse HN, and to have an interesting conversation, I'd have to explain a lot of things instead of being able to debate or explore them.
a) I'd have to listen to them discuss (probably) the footy, or their Rav-4. That's incredibly tedious.
b) They sure don't browse HN, and to have an interesting conversation, I'd have to explain a lot of things instead of being able to debate or explore them.
Sounds like she really needed someone to talk to. Might've helped keep her sanity. Thanks for being polite
You're welcome, or rather, she is. Yeah, you don't know what people are going through, and there is enough negativity in the world.
That said, I'm pretty sure it was just an introvert/extrovert clash. She couldn't imagine not chatting over coffee. Whereas I have a job working with people (teaching), which I like, but it means outside the job I am even more introverted...
That said, I'm pretty sure it was just an introvert/extrovert clash. She couldn't imagine not chatting over coffee. Whereas I have a job working with people (teaching), which I like, but it means outside the job I am even more introverted...
swayvil(2)
I can talk for hours with anyone about anything, but I have some kind of social anxiety about starting the conversation, and that sadly goes not just for strangers but also for people I'm familiar with but not super familiar...
I'd never start talking to a person sitting next to me on a train or a plane, but when they start I'm most often very glad to have someone to talk to...
I'd never start talking to a person sitting next to me on a train or a plane, but when they start I'm most often very glad to have someone to talk to...
I hope i will run into you. I like starting conversations. I tend to hate it when people slow down or block the conversation by simply replying with a short yes or no, even when there's nothing for them to do (while, say, waiting in a queue) other than gazing at their little screen.
I hate to do that but it often happens. I'm not sure why, but I wanted to share that it can be incompetence to keep it up rather than being not interested.
I'm autistic, and it's taken me a long time to learn how to start. It's been worth it.
Today, a woman and I were both looking at the same display in Hobby Lobby, both clearly looking for something.
When she moved over, I used something I've learned recently, which is, "Oh, sorry to be in your way -- I'm just looking for something to build a backpack with." Which is not entirely true, since it's a nopack -- a system which uses everyday components from my backpacking experience to make a carrying system, but close enough. A strange lie that is expected in simplification.
I've learned that this mode of phrasing means "Hi, I'm interested in maybe the same thing as you are, and would like to make potential conversation about [topic mentioned] or [thing we are mutually looking at] (or, as I later realized just now, [topic behind why you're looking at the thing you're looking at]).
She took me up on all three of those things, and we talked about jean zippers, backpacking, safety on the Appalachian Trail (I'm a trans nonbinary woman/gal, I don't think she noticed though from how the conversation went. Places like Hobby Lobby and Chick Fil A can have a different vibe to them when not passing well), and a few other miscellaneous things. It was very nice, we talked maybe 5-10 minutes or so before going on our separate ways.
My day felt more full, I felt more happy, and less isolated.
I wish there was a dictionary, or some kind of book/guide that explained these kinds of things. Somebody on the Appalachian Trail this year taught me how to indirectly ask for things (i.e. "Do you know a good way to get to [X town]?" while wearing a backpack sorta means "Hey, can you give me a ride please?". This was a shocking revelation to me, and made life much easier).
Having a clear, simple guide would have saved me much grief. These things aren't complicated, they're just too complex and too hidden for most of us to sort out through all of the information overwhelm mire.
I'm happy to talk more about this topic, I could really talk about it for a long time <3 :'))))
Today, a woman and I were both looking at the same display in Hobby Lobby, both clearly looking for something.
When she moved over, I used something I've learned recently, which is, "Oh, sorry to be in your way -- I'm just looking for something to build a backpack with." Which is not entirely true, since it's a nopack -- a system which uses everyday components from my backpacking experience to make a carrying system, but close enough. A strange lie that is expected in simplification.
I've learned that this mode of phrasing means "Hi, I'm interested in maybe the same thing as you are, and would like to make potential conversation about [topic mentioned] or [thing we are mutually looking at] (or, as I later realized just now, [topic behind why you're looking at the thing you're looking at]).
She took me up on all three of those things, and we talked about jean zippers, backpacking, safety on the Appalachian Trail (I'm a trans nonbinary woman/gal, I don't think she noticed though from how the conversation went. Places like Hobby Lobby and Chick Fil A can have a different vibe to them when not passing well), and a few other miscellaneous things. It was very nice, we talked maybe 5-10 minutes or so before going on our separate ways.
My day felt more full, I felt more happy, and less isolated.
I wish there was a dictionary, or some kind of book/guide that explained these kinds of things. Somebody on the Appalachian Trail this year taught me how to indirectly ask for things (i.e. "Do you know a good way to get to [X town]?" while wearing a backpack sorta means "Hey, can you give me a ride please?". This was a shocking revelation to me, and made life much easier).
Having a clear, simple guide would have saved me much grief. These things aren't complicated, they're just too complex and too hidden for most of us to sort out through all of the information overwhelm mire.
I'm happy to talk more about this topic, I could really talk about it for a long time <3 :'))))
Can you recommend any resources for learning this sort of thing?
I'd honestly like to write a short, inexpensive, useful coffee-table book someday. I've googled 'autism dictionary' and haven't found anything useful yet, really not sure why to be honest.
It would be very nice having a translation guide between how our minds work and the minds of the general neurotypical population work. Sort of like learning a new language -- since in this case, immersion sorta almost has the opposite effect sometimes. <3 :'))))
I do let people know up front that I'm autistic and may miss social cues, and to please let me know directly. I also react receptively to advice, and when I find something potentially useful, I present my best guess from what they're saying. People like correcting when someone is wrong, I've been told, and it seems to be true!
With social things, I naturally react incredulously regardless, which often lets people come in and help out with more advice, which helps a lot. Sometimes I'll also go down a "what do you mean by this? I'm not really sure how to _________" and that seems to be effective.
Remember, if you're lonely and in public, a lot of strangers are too. Eventually, like the tide rising, built social skills can lead to more, and more, and more....
I'm not sure if this helps at all. Consider this one interaction with a stranger that may help fill some gaps in your knowledge! ;) (or, maybe not at all, that's okay too, love! <3 :')))))
It would be very nice having a translation guide between how our minds work and the minds of the general neurotypical population work. Sort of like learning a new language -- since in this case, immersion sorta almost has the opposite effect sometimes. <3 :'))))
I do let people know up front that I'm autistic and may miss social cues, and to please let me know directly. I also react receptively to advice, and when I find something potentially useful, I present my best guess from what they're saying. People like correcting when someone is wrong, I've been told, and it seems to be true!
With social things, I naturally react incredulously regardless, which often lets people come in and help out with more advice, which helps a lot. Sometimes I'll also go down a "what do you mean by this? I'm not really sure how to _________" and that seems to be effective.
Remember, if you're lonely and in public, a lot of strangers are too. Eventually, like the tide rising, built social skills can lead to more, and more, and more....
I'm not sure if this helps at all. Consider this one interaction with a stranger that may help fill some gaps in your knowledge! ;) (or, maybe not at all, that's okay too, love! <3 :')))))
I don't know where you live, but most large cities have an Improv Comedy scene that includes courses, weekly meetups and workshops. You will learn:
* How to talk like you have something to say
* How to leave space for others to talk
* Helping the conversation move along
* Saying stuff that is interesting but not necessarily true without being deceptive
* Be funny now and then (YMMV)
* How to talk like you have something to say
* How to leave space for others to talk
* Helping the conversation move along
* Saying stuff that is interesting but not necessarily true without being deceptive
* Be funny now and then (YMMV)
I enjoyed listening to this as an audiobook. Not a ton I remember from it, but it seemed helpful to me, and the biggest takeaway is that a conversation is building something that you two are working on together (and the implied lesson beyond that that I got is that it is bigger than either of you, oftentimes).
https://www.amazon.com/Improv-Your-Conversations-Banter-Tech...
I should probably try more with improv, it seems fun (albeti scary), but a good way to basically 'hit the gym' for some social skills. If I can cross some of those barriers, maybe the others won't be too terribly hard!
For me, what helped a lot was backpacking a social trail like the Appalachian Trail. Every stranger basically talks, you get to know people REAAAALLLL fast, and people that don't talk oftentimes actively avoid it and are seen as a bit weird. People on the trail I was on were seemingly totally fine with me being autistic and trans, it's a pretty accepting place. <3 :'))))
https://www.amazon.com/Improv-Your-Conversations-Banter-Tech...
I should probably try more with improv, it seems fun (albeti scary), but a good way to basically 'hit the gym' for some social skills. If I can cross some of those barriers, maybe the others won't be too terribly hard!
For me, what helped a lot was backpacking a social trail like the Appalachian Trail. Every stranger basically talks, you get to know people REAAAALLLL fast, and people that don't talk oftentimes actively avoid it and are seen as a bit weird. People on the trail I was on were seemingly totally fine with me being autistic and trans, it's a pretty accepting place. <3 :'))))
There's an emerging star named Johnny Hamcheck whose whole schtick is talking to strangers in ways they don't expect. It's harmless unscripted humor. If you like Surveillance Camera Man, this might be for you. I'm linking his YouTube, even though he gets a tiny fraction of the views there compared to other platforms:
https://youtube.com/@johnnyhamcheck
https://youtube.com/@johnnyhamcheck
This is so weird. But I love watching it. Crazy the level of intimacy he can sometimes achieve sometimes with made up ideas.
In Utah, we have this common phenomenon where if a stranger starts up a conversation and is being chatty, it’s likely that they are trying to recruit you for their MLM
I recently went on vacation abroad and struck up so many pleasant conversations with other Americans and some Brits, Irish, and Australians - maybe its cause we were excited to speak the same language, but it was strange, because this rarely happens in my part of the US (everyone seems to be in their own clique or group).
The last time someone I didn't know tried to talk to me on public transport I moved to another seat.
Did they ask you to please remove your bag so they could sit next to you?
Where I live that’s considered pretty rude. You could however respectfully say that you’d rather listen to music or just say you prefer not to talk. Or just be short in your answers and don’t ask anything back. Most people get the hint quickly.
> Or just be short in your answers and don’t ask anything back. Most people get the hint quickly.
Hah! As someone who used public transport for most of my life, I've suffered through more than my fair share of narcississtic self-obsessed extroverts who don't get the hint.
And some people's tolerance for tedious conversation can be higher or lower. Mine's pretty low, so I know where the P is coming from.
What's really rude is to waste people's valuable time and peace of mind.
Hah! As someone who used public transport for most of my life, I've suffered through more than my fair share of narcississtic self-obsessed extroverts who don't get the hint.
And some people's tolerance for tedious conversation can be higher or lower. Mine's pretty low, so I know where the P is coming from.
What's really rude is to waste people's valuable time and peace of mind.
You’ve asked people to stop talking to you and they didn’t?
"Or just be short in your answers and don’t ask anything back. Most people get the hint quickly."
No I didn't ask people to stop talking to me. The point I'm making is that I often run into people completely impermeable to social-cues, body-language and other hints.
No I didn't ask people to stop talking to me. The point I'm making is that I often run into people completely impermeable to social-cues, body-language and other hints.
What would you do in a totally overcrowded train or bus then?
i hope you found the time to excuse yourself
very gracious
Or watch How To With John Wilson, season 1 episode 1 How To Make Small Talk, very enlightening!
For people who work in defense, strangers randomly talking to them is always a sticky point.
yea, living near an us overseas base, you gotta be careful with questions about their $dayjob
My whole job is to talk to strangers for 4- 8 hours and help their English conversation skills. Everyone I talk to is fascinating and most of the time they just want someone to listen rather than correct their English.
For anyone interested in developing the skills for talking to strangers, I highly recommend the book The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox Cabane
It has some really good exercises to build confidence and ease social anxiety
It has some really good exercises to build confidence and ease social anxiety
I overanalyze social interaction. I'm a constant beginner at it. I'm constant scared. Yea, whatever, I don't care, let's do some talking!
How to talk to someone? There are a few ways:
1. Give a compliment that you genuinely mean. It has to be genuine because sometimes you gotta go in-depth with your compliment to show that it's genuine. Such as: "I really like your whole outfit style. I don't want to assume, but it makes me think you're a free spirit playing guitar and I'm just vibing to that feel."
2. Ask a question you're curious about that you think the person next to you might on the off chance know something about.
3. Talk about something happening in the situation that seems to be interesting "do you have any clue why there's such a huge line over there?"
4. Talk about something happening and just make it a statement "I love the fact that Amsterdam has these free water fountains in certain places!" (while everyone is standing near it)
5. Tell a story.
When you talk to someone, you need to be aware that they're on autopilot. This means that you first need to grab their attention. I personally do this by saying "excuse me". When they look up, then I tell my actual thing I want to say.
Responses:
- Good: carry on
- Mediocre: maybe carry on?
- Not interested: don't carry on. Don't internalize it was you. It might've been you, it might've been something else. You don't know. And even if it was you, maybe it really was some projection of their psychological state that goes back to childhood (aka not really you). You just don't know. But yea, learning to be okay with that not everyone is interested is okay.
Other ideas:
* Playfulness helps. Playfulness generates humor. I don't know how to generate humor, but I do know how to be playful (playful = don't take things seriously, don't look for truth, do look for fun and play).
* Curiosity helps.
* Asking questions helps, as long as you're interested in them and you're not asking them to just carry the conversation.
* Statements help. Not everything needs to be Q&A.
* Telling stories help. Just in general, it gives people to latch onto a lot.
I hope this helps some. It's a non-comprehensive guide made by someone who has spend a lot of time thinking about it (but at the moment is quite rusty :P). I fail at it often, I succeed at it often as well. Whatever, I'm talking to people. Failure and success doesn't matter. All that matters is are you sending a ping to the whole wide world, or not? :D
How to talk to someone? There are a few ways:
1. Give a compliment that you genuinely mean. It has to be genuine because sometimes you gotta go in-depth with your compliment to show that it's genuine. Such as: "I really like your whole outfit style. I don't want to assume, but it makes me think you're a free spirit playing guitar and I'm just vibing to that feel."
2. Ask a question you're curious about that you think the person next to you might on the off chance know something about.
3. Talk about something happening in the situation that seems to be interesting "do you have any clue why there's such a huge line over there?"
4. Talk about something happening and just make it a statement "I love the fact that Amsterdam has these free water fountains in certain places!" (while everyone is standing near it)
5. Tell a story.
When you talk to someone, you need to be aware that they're on autopilot. This means that you first need to grab their attention. I personally do this by saying "excuse me". When they look up, then I tell my actual thing I want to say.
Responses:
- Good: carry on
- Mediocre: maybe carry on?
- Not interested: don't carry on. Don't internalize it was you. It might've been you, it might've been something else. You don't know. And even if it was you, maybe it really was some projection of their psychological state that goes back to childhood (aka not really you). You just don't know. But yea, learning to be okay with that not everyone is interested is okay.
Other ideas:
* Playfulness helps. Playfulness generates humor. I don't know how to generate humor, but I do know how to be playful (playful = don't take things seriously, don't look for truth, do look for fun and play).
* Curiosity helps.
* Asking questions helps, as long as you're interested in them and you're not asking them to just carry the conversation.
* Statements help. Not everything needs to be Q&A.
* Telling stories help. Just in general, it gives people to latch onto a lot.
I hope this helps some. It's a non-comprehensive guide made by someone who has spend a lot of time thinking about it (but at the moment is quite rusty :P). I fail at it often, I succeed at it often as well. Whatever, I'm talking to people. Failure and success doesn't matter. All that matters is are you sending a ping to the whole wide world, or not? :D
Yes, but there has to be a non-zero probability of them becoming some sort of presence in your life.
Say at the airport or abroad the chances are essentially 0.0% for friendship and somewhat higher for romantic relationships provided that you are young and wild enough.
More generally guys should strive to build a crew , some sort of small army of friends whose components are stable during the course of time.
Say at the airport or abroad the chances are essentially 0.0% for friendship and somewhat higher for romantic relationships provided that you are young and wild enough.
More generally guys should strive to build a crew , some sort of small army of friends whose components are stable during the course of time.
Can't you just talk to someone for the simple heck of it?
I have had a few interesting conversations with strangers on planes. Most recently, I talked to a former government worker from Hawaii. I never saw them again, but I enjoyed just hearing their experiences and views because they were a random person from a completely random walk of life that I would otherwise never encounter as part of my normal weekly routine.
I have had a few interesting conversations with strangers on planes. Most recently, I talked to a former government worker from Hawaii. I never saw them again, but I enjoyed just hearing their experiences and views because they were a random person from a completely random walk of life that I would otherwise never encounter as part of my normal weekly routine.
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