Fresh CS graduate wages down 20 percent(blogs.law.harvard.edu)
blogs.law.harvard.edu
Fresh CS graduate wages down 20 percent
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/12/03/fresh-cs-graduate-wages-down-20-percent/
37 comments
It varies greatly on skill/pedigree (the two often, but not always, correlate). If you are poor to average you'll start at $50K-70k/year. If you're average to good you'll start at 70k-90k, and 90k+ if you're particularly good (about 150K is the maximum I've heard of, and that's more in modeling or quantitative development than straight programming). About a 10% bonus is normal in my experience, but that obviously varies based on skill/industry. There is also some give based on what sort of company/industry you want (e.g., I personally know someone who just this week turned down a six figure offer at a hedge fund for ~20k less doing AI research).
Those numbers are for a programmer in/near big cities (Boston, Silicon Valley, NY, etc). Revise them down ~10% for more rural/suburban areas (but it's harder to find work beyond code-monkey level at all in many of those places). And all this is based on my anecdotal experience, so figure there is likely some selection bias.
In my experience, between federal and state income taxes, FICA, and sales tax you'll lose ~50% of your of your income to the government. And we have to save for our own retirement (we expect nothing from social security) and our kids' college education (currently ~15k-30K/year tuition).
How are your taxes/retirement/etc in Japan?
Those numbers are for a programmer in/near big cities (Boston, Silicon Valley, NY, etc). Revise them down ~10% for more rural/suburban areas (but it's harder to find work beyond code-monkey level at all in many of those places). And all this is based on my anecdotal experience, so figure there is likely some selection bias.
In my experience, between federal and state income taxes, FICA, and sales tax you'll lose ~50% of your of your income to the government. And we have to save for our own retirement (we expect nothing from social security) and our kids' college education (currently ~15k-30K/year tuition).
How are your taxes/retirement/etc in Japan?
Don't pull numbers out of nowhere.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresu...
There's no way that an "average" starting salary is 70k. Salary.com is famously inflationary and they have the median at 54K--and that's not just fresh grads. My guess would be more like 40K, with huge variations depending on where you live and whether you went to a well-known school. But then, "average" people don't go to well-known schools for the most part.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresu...
There's no way that an "average" starting salary is 70k. Salary.com is famously inflationary and they have the median at 54K--and that's not just fresh grads. My guess would be more like 40K, with huge variations depending on where you live and whether you went to a well-known school. But then, "average" people don't go to well-known schools for the most part.
First of all, I said my numbers apply to major cites. Your own source places the median salary in th 60K-65K range for most metros.
Second, my numbers aren't pulled out of nowhere they are based on my friends and my experience. And they seem to be independently corroborated by litewulf.
Third, note that my poor/average/good ratings weren't based on quintiles or anything like that - it was based on my personal characterization of skill/pedigree (pedigree being a combination of experience, personal projects, and school - in about that order). I incidentally think that about 90% of programmers are crap (sturgeon's law), so it's likely that the median salary is ~60K with everything I said being true.
Second, my numbers aren't pulled out of nowhere they are based on my friends and my experience. And they seem to be independently corroborated by litewulf.
Third, note that my poor/average/good ratings weren't based on quintiles or anything like that - it was based on my personal characterization of skill/pedigree (pedigree being a combination of experience, personal projects, and school - in about that order). I incidentally think that about 90% of programmers are crap (sturgeon's law), so it's likely that the median salary is ~60K with everything I said being true.
FWIW, I've found Salary.com to be pretty good with it's mean and distribution information.
+1 sounds about right. My offers were 80k to 120k. (I'd say I went to a pretty decent university, but I wasn't too amazing.) There is massive massive variance based on the kind of position you are talking about.
I would say your numbers seem about right, though with the caveat that CS graduates can end up doing all sorts of things from IT-gruntwork-level tasks to rank and file software engineers, all the way to, yes, quants who are offered lots and lots of money.
I would say your numbers seem about right, though with the caveat that CS graduates can end up doing all sorts of things from IT-gruntwork-level tasks to rank and file software engineers, all the way to, yes, quants who are offered lots and lots of money.
I'd take a gamble and say that the name of the unversity is much more likely to effect your offer than grades. And even then, it probably doesn't scale down. As a hiring manager, you either went to a school I recognize or you didn't.
I don't know if anyone ever looked at my GPA. (It might be on my resume, and "they" might have filtered resumes with some hard GPA cutoff) It usually came down to my interviews and such I think.
Thanks. If I read your comment right, poor to average programmers in big cities will get $40k~/year after taxes, etc. Hmm... I guess it's not so different after all, I was thinking fresh programmers're getting $70k/year after taxes.
In my experience (I'm still in univ. but got some offers from companies), we will get base salary: $2k ~ 2.5k/month after taxes etc, plus apartment(simple one) and transport fee. The yearly bonus is 5 times of base salary, but usually we get only 4 times. This is from fairly big Japanese company, slightly lower than SONY or HONDA. The job being talked is core software development at company's main business. Too bad we don't have 401k plan like in other countries.
I went to Deutsche Bank last year, and it's alot different. We'll get $64k/year after tax, almost no yearly bonus and small allowance for apartment. The job being talked is the usual software development for desktop products.
In my experience (I'm still in univ. but got some offers from companies), we will get base salary: $2k ~ 2.5k/month after taxes etc, plus apartment(simple one) and transport fee. The yearly bonus is 5 times of base salary, but usually we get only 4 times. This is from fairly big Japanese company, slightly lower than SONY or HONDA. The job being talked is core software development at company's main business. Too bad we don't have 401k plan like in other countries.
I went to Deutsche Bank last year, and it's alot different. We'll get $64k/year after tax, almost no yearly bonus and small allowance for apartment. The job being talked is the usual software development for desktop products.
ahh, we don't get housing either. so you may come out ahead after all
The total effective tax-rate (national+municipal) in Japan for entry-level workers is under 20% unless you work a ridiculous amount of overtime, and even then it wont be much more. Unlike US jobs, most salaried positions in Japan pay overtime after the 40th hour.
sounds correct
also, it seems like a large % of cs graduates are unable to get jobs in programming due to lack of experience
also, it seems like a large % of cs graduates are unable to get jobs in programming due to lack of experience
I'm just trying to move back into I.T., and even entry-level positions are asking for 2-3 years of experience. I'd say there are probably a lot of underemployed programmers since getting the foot in the door is tougher these days.
$2100 a month? That is extremely cheap by US standards.
Yeah, I feel cheap too, but it's almost like the standard here :(
Unless you enter google or bulge bracket banks, you won't get too far from $2k/month base salary here.
Just my curiosity, did you find this cheap after reading my other comment too: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=385479 ? And btw, by CS graduate I meant B.Eng. or B.Sc. not M.Eng or M.Sc.
So, Is it save to assume that entry level programmer will get above $50k/year in US?
Just my curiosity, did you find this cheap after reading my other comment too: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=385479 ? And btw, by CS graduate I meant B.Eng. or B.Sc. not M.Eng or M.Sc.
So, Is it save to assume that entry level programmer will get above $50k/year in US?
I got more then $2100/month doing a phone support job at a small company in a suburban area practically out of high school. Without a college degree I was able to get over $5000/month in an urban area doing web development with no prior "experence".
All four of my friends who just graduated in CS are getting g about the same (55k-65k) in various markets at big companes.
All four of my friends who just graduated in CS are getting g about the same (55k-65k) in various markets at big companes.
Every year, the University of Michigan publishes a survey of salaries for its Engineering graduates:
http://career.engin.umich.edu/salary/
Average annual full-time salaries for computer science graduates finishing in the 2007-2008 school year, by degree:
Bachelors - $73,761
Masters - $79,762
PhD - $103,740
All of these amounts are up from the previous year.
Caveats: the sample size is small, it's a top Research I University in Engineering, and participation is on a volunteer basis, so the participants may self-select in certain unknown ways. Also, the most recent survey is from the class that graduated in April, which was before many of the scary economic things began happening.
http://career.engin.umich.edu/salary/
Average annual full-time salaries for computer science graduates finishing in the 2007-2008 school year, by degree:
Bachelors - $73,761
Masters - $79,762
PhD - $103,740
All of these amounts are up from the previous year.
Caveats: the sample size is small, it's a top Research I University in Engineering, and participation is on a volunteer basis, so the participants may self-select in certain unknown ways. Also, the most recent survey is from the class that graduated in April, which was before many of the scary economic things began happening.
I wouldn't put much weight on this.. it's a 3 sentence blog post without much backing.
"Technology sales are down 20%! ... I know 'cause I talked to my buddy who works at a computer store and he said he normally sells 5 laptops a day, but yesterday when we met for a beer he said he only sold 4."
That would be about as worthwhile of a generalization.
That said, I'd be surprised if wages weren't down across the board, with more emphasis on fresh graduates. This is hardly a surprise with lots of layoffs and a depressed economy.
That would be about as worthwhile of a generalization.
That said, I'd be surprised if wages weren't down across the board, with more emphasis on fresh graduates. This is hardly a surprise with lots of layoffs and a depressed economy.
This is from Phillip Greenspun's blog, so it has more credibility than if it would be just some random blogger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Greenspun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Greenspun
so you need 3 pages of a blog post to sound convincing? I suppose that's the reason I don't read the majority of blogs out there...
I've done some research in this area (my startup is dev recruitment related) and from what I've seen that large tech companies aren't cutting fresh graduate wages because it complicated internal politics. If you pay this years grads less than last years, then they will find out about it and it creates ill-will and bad politics within the company.
However the number of grad roles at the top-end are being cut, so previously grads who could have got a high-paying job at a top-end company now have to take a lesser paying job at a slightly worse company.
However the number of grad roles at the top-end are being cut, so previously grads who could have got a high-paying job at a top-end company now have to take a lesser paying job at a slightly worse company.
Employers / recruiters can use the bad economic news (Adobe layoffs, etc) in conjunction with the "exploding offer" to drive down wages of new graduates.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html
Anyone know what yc startups like scribd pay their developers?
That's just one data point. I don't have any numbers, but this doesn't seem to be the case at the big software companies.
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Maybe if they stop cursing and start recursing. Sorry for the worst and most annoying joke ever.
...for a sample size of one?
EDIT: I must say, this is also the same for big companies like IBM Japan, SAP, etc.