A Nigerian professor who makes more money welding(bbc.com)
bbc.com
A Nigerian professor who makes more money welding
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-68079364
130 comments
> This is a story about entrepreneurship, not a recognition of manual skill, or an expose of underpaid academics.
It can be all three. A story doesn't need to be about just one thing.
It can be all three. A story doesn't need to be about just one thing.
Thanks for saving me the click. People act like the BBC is some bastion of flawless journalism but it’s still full of dumb crap like this
He actually didn't.
He left out plenty of interesting details.
And not sure why you are randomly hating on BBC? Who said that this article is a must read because of BBC?
He left out plenty of interesting details.
And not sure why you are randomly hating on BBC? Who said that this article is a must read because of BBC?
There's a retired welder who lives down the street and a retired professor across the street. The welder has a large beautiful custom built home, six horses, on about a half dozen merged rural lots. The professor lives in a double wide mobile home on a small lot. That's not very surprising in the US, why should it be in Nigeria?
Welding looks easy. I've tried it many times, it's really hard. There's a very small line between not fusing the metal and burning a big hole in the work.
Welding is very rare in aircraft because of the difficulty in verifying a correct weld.
Welding is very rare in aircraft because of the difficulty in verifying a correct weld.
Difficulty is relative and practice makes perfect. People love to compare difficulty of processes, metals, positions etc. They’re all hard without practice. They’re all easy with a lot of practice. If you just want to fuse some metal it can be very frustrating to fight with the welder and get nowhere. But if you’re deliberately practicing, getting hundreds of hours under the hood, you will get good. The other crucial component is that other humans have worked out how to weld metals effectively and have documented it. There are tons of handbooks and manuals, detailing which techniques and consumables you should be using for a given weld. Combine that with lots of time under the hood, and you’ll be making phenomenally good welds without difficulty.
> People love to compare difficulty of processes… they’re all easy with a lot of practice.
People also love to diminish the value of skilled trades and high quality craftspeople. If it takes thousands of hours to become a competent welder then it’s hard. It’s okay to say that things are hard.
People also love to diminish the value of skilled trades and high quality craftspeople. If it takes thousands of hours to become a competent welder then it’s hard. It’s okay to say that things are hard.
I enjoy watching a skilled craftsman at work. It's beautiful.
I think a lot of it depends on the instructor.
I was doing pretty nice TiG welding after one class, which was probably around 2 hours per session times four sessions. Better than most of what I see with tradespeople in the area. That was true for most if not all of the students there.
A key was that the instructor was a master. He created amazing works of art by constructively adding metal. He was trained in all sorts of esoteric areas too, like underwater welding.
There's about a mile-wide gap between being able to fuse two pieces of metal without leaving a hole (which is fine for most professional work), and being able to make a tiny insect by building it out of little dots of metal. Learning to do what our instructor did would be like black magic.
However, what you're describing just consists of having proper technique and proper equipment. It's a very learnable skill.
I don't think you can get there by stumbling around yourself in a workshop, though.
(Unfortunately, it's also a forgettable skill if you don't practice, which I didn't)
I was doing pretty nice TiG welding after one class, which was probably around 2 hours per session times four sessions. Better than most of what I see with tradespeople in the area. That was true for most if not all of the students there.
A key was that the instructor was a master. He created amazing works of art by constructively adding metal. He was trained in all sorts of esoteric areas too, like underwater welding.
There's about a mile-wide gap between being able to fuse two pieces of metal without leaving a hole (which is fine for most professional work), and being able to make a tiny insect by building it out of little dots of metal. Learning to do what our instructor did would be like black magic.
However, what you're describing just consists of having proper technique and proper equipment. It's a very learnable skill.
I don't think you can get there by stumbling around yourself in a workshop, though.
(Unfortunately, it's also a forgettable skill if you don't practice, which I didn't)
I don't think it's difficulty in verifying, it's just not the right tool for the job in a lot cases on an airplane. Aircraft don't use much steel, and aluminum welds typically have a heat affected zone (HAZ) adjacent to the weld which is weaker and more prone to fatigue cracking. For this reason aluminum is often riveted or bolted.
I was told by the actual engineers at Boeing it was difficulty in verifying.
Verification of inclusion and heat affected zones is indeed extremely difficult. It’s a very skill sensitive process that’s hard to get right 100% of the time
I assume Friction Stir Welding is getting more popular in aircraft partly due to easier verification.
It's also capable of handling very thin material and it's very repeatable.
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTW_Generation_15 trains also rely on it, as the weight limit stems from the track (to passively bank in curves, the cabin is underneath the rail (and there's only one rail as this arrangement is stable and just acts like a pendulum), so the track needs to be a bridge).
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTW_Generation_15 trains also rely on it, as the weight limit stems from the track (to passively bank in curves, the cabin is underneath the rail (and there's only one rail as this arrangement is stable and just acts like a pendulum), so the track needs to be a bridge).
Welding is incredibly important in modern construction. All steel-framed buildings are held together by welding pretty much. Not surprisingly it is quite highly paid (at least in my country).
> He opened up a mini workshop in Zaria around two decades ago.
> He has 10 apprentices - aged between 12 and 20 - at the workshop where he is teaching them the skills of the trade.
Seems more like a successful small business owner (not just being a part-time welder).
Considering that he has been running his shop profitably for 20+ years, he may well be richer than 90% of his academic peers.
> He has 10 apprentices - aged between 12 and 20 - at the workshop where he is teaching them the skills of the trade.
Seems more like a successful small business owner (not just being a part-time welder).
Considering that he has been running his shop profitably for 20+ years, he may well be richer than 90% of his academic peers.
Smart guy but in my experience in parts of the world which aren't graced with the dollar or euro as their home currency really gotta be deft like that in order to get by comfortably. Small chance you may be surprised how many people out there are living on less than 5$/hr
don't most start investing in markets outside their home country or get something more tangible like land and capital items rather than stuffing it under a mattress?
A lot of them are switching to Bitcoin, or some dollar-equivalent like USDC / USDT
Not sure why are you getting downvoted. I'm in Argentina right now and its happening in real time right in front of my eyes.
It’s half an argument. Just bringing up cryptocurrencies is tiresome. How does that change the amount of people living on less than the equivalent of $5 per hour or day?
The parent comment said you need to be “graced” with the dollar or euro, but with crypto every person on earth can have a dollar wallet now. That’s why I said it.
Most American university instructors are adjuncts. Yes, any welder would easily earn more than let’s say 85% of instructors.
Even in software a lot of more interesting jobs pay less. Look at Haskell and Rust jobs. They might have some of the most highest paying but most of them get paid less than being a below average SQL developer.
> Look at Haskell and Rust jobs. They might have some of the most highest paying but most of them get paid less
I would bet that's because there are a large number projects that got written in Haskell/Rust by someone looking to learn on-the-job, for a highly non-technical business. Now anyone hired to implement new business capabilities is inherently locked in to "low-ROI" work, short of convincing the business of a big rewrite in a new language (unsurprisingly impossible)... and they'll probably get someone else looking to learn the language on the job :)
Then there are HFTs with valuable and effective software, which can fully exploit the skills of an advanced engineer to quickly make the company 10x+ their wages - naturally such jobs pay a bit more.
Jobs basically pay based on the rarity of the skill set and the profit capital owners can extract from the laborer.
Don't "invest" in a rare/difficult-to-acquire skill set which is not profitable (but also, don't assume life needs to be an investment - we only have the one :)
I would bet that's because there are a large number projects that got written in Haskell/Rust by someone looking to learn on-the-job, for a highly non-technical business. Now anyone hired to implement new business capabilities is inherently locked in to "low-ROI" work, short of convincing the business of a big rewrite in a new language (unsurprisingly impossible)... and they'll probably get someone else looking to learn the language on the job :)
Then there are HFTs with valuable and effective software, which can fully exploit the skills of an advanced engineer to quickly make the company 10x+ their wages - naturally such jobs pay a bit more.
Jobs basically pay based on the rarity of the skill set and the profit capital owners can extract from the laborer.
Don't "invest" in a rare/difficult-to-acquire skill set which is not profitable (but also, don't assume life needs to be an investment - we only have the one :)
Yeah, well, I happen to know a union leader for teachers in NJ who is losing tenured staff to COSTCO. So. I reject the clickbait headline and the implications.
Costco pays well for retail though.
People with years of preparation and expert practice are giving up a demanding high-skill job to do a retail clerk job that requires no special skill or pre-service training at all.
For individual workers this is fine, and people should do what they like; at scale, for society, it is incredibly wasteful: high-quality teaching has incredibly high leverage. We should get our collective shit together and fix it.
For individual workers this is fine, and people should do what they like; at scale, for society, it is incredibly wasteful: high-quality teaching has incredibly high leverage. We should get our collective shit together and fix it.
It does require training. You have to watch several videos in the break room.
This reminds me a lot of the fall of the Roman Empire: Romans abandoned the cities and their highly skilled professions so they could move to feudal lords' farms and work the fields. Apparently the society had deteriorated so much that it was more lucrative to work as a field laborer than live in the city doing specialized work. And of course, without skilled people to keep the city's advanced economy going, it fell apart over time.
Note that the result of this was a large drop in total agricultural production. It wasn't so much that people left the cities to work the fields as that the people who lived in the cities died.
Cities have never replaced themselves, by the way - urban population has always come from people leaving the countryside. When the inflow shrinks, the city will shrink even if no one leaves.
Cities have never replaced themselves, by the way - urban population has always come from people leaving the countryside. When the inflow shrinks, the city will shrink even if no one leaves.
I'm sure some people in the cities died if they couldn't find a better situation for themselves, but what I had read was that many abandoned the cities because life there had become unbearable for whatever reason, generally caused by severe mismanagement by the society's rulers.
If people are leaving academic professions to work as stockers at retail stores, this does not bode well for American society long-term. You can't have an advanced economy and society without an academic class.
If people are leaving academic professions to work as stockers at retail stores, this does not bode well for American society long-term. You can't have an advanced economy and society without an academic class.
Counterpoint from a former tenured academic: Maybe we just have too big of an academic class.
Our universities are still trying to teach like it’s the mid 20th Century, but the economics are not in their favor. What we’re seeing is the result of them being squeezed into the new reality.
Our universities are still trying to teach like it’s the mid 20th Century, but the economics are not in their favor. What we’re seeing is the result of them being squeezed into the new reality.
> high-quality teaching has incredibly high leverage.
This is not a claim supported by the literature. (Though it is a very popular one.) The results of teaching are overwhelmingly determined by the student getting taught. Variation in the teaching itself has a minor effect.
This is not a claim supported by the literature. (Though it is a very popular one.) The results of teaching are overwhelmingly determined by the student getting taught. Variation in the teaching itself has a minor effect.
Yes and no.
When you look at populations, it averages out, but there are definitely 10x teachers out there. It’s more of a function of teacher+student combination. The problem is actually more about the structure of schools that limits what great teachers can do.
I’m sure there are studies out there - I’m also extremely skeptical that studies can adequately measure variation in teaching performance (I come from a background in sports / circus, where scientists are always 10-20 years behind the state of the art understanding of the actual practitioners)
(I think it’s kind of like with coding - anyone can write a CRUD app, and anyone can teach basic arithmetic. But certain teaching tasks require very skilled teachers to work)
When you look at populations, it averages out, but there are definitely 10x teachers out there. It’s more of a function of teacher+student combination. The problem is actually more about the structure of schools that limits what great teachers can do.
I’m sure there are studies out there - I’m also extremely skeptical that studies can adequately measure variation in teaching performance (I come from a background in sports / circus, where scientists are always 10-20 years behind the state of the art understanding of the actual practitioners)
(I think it’s kind of like with coding - anyone can write a CRUD app, and anyone can teach basic arithmetic. But certain teaching tasks require very skilled teachers to work)
Care to point to some of those studies? How do they define what a "very good teacher" is versus a "mediocre teacher"? Interviews with students? Interviews with teachers? Average results of their students?
The studies in question are stuff like: if you look at standardized test scores before/after each particular teacher's class, and then run statistical regressions throwing in a bunch of other variables, you will find that most of the variance in the improvements in student performance can be attributed to factors other than which teacher they drew.
But this is a weak way to study the most important influences teachers can have which are about inspiring and exciting students and might not be particularly observable until years or even decades later, when e.g. a student with an inspirational middle school teacher chooses their college major or career path, which might be a different choice from the counterfactual student whose teachers were just phoning it in.
But this is a weak way to study the most important influences teachers can have which are about inspiring and exciting students and might not be particularly observable until years or even decades later, when e.g. a student with an inspirational middle school teacher chooses their college major or career path, which might be a different choice from the counterfactual student whose teachers were just phoning it in.
That's not what high leverage means. If you teach 150 students a day then even a small effect of teaching will translate into a big difference in cumulative learning.
That's even less impactful. Cumulative learning is determined by the student much more strongly than per-class learning is. Years after a student took your class, the contribution to their knowledge, positive or negative, from you is negligible.
We don’t know if they were doing high quality teaching.
The free market pays people what they are worth. Costco has decided intelligent, hard working, disciplined people are worth more money than what a university thinks they are worth teaching English, or whatever
The free market gathers wealth with a few and then determinate value depending on the state of mind of the few. The whole harebrained idea never worked, resulting in even more harebrained counter movements like socialism preventing value to be how many antigerm washings you performed per day. It's civil unrest or the threat of it, that redistribute wealth and restart societys value circulation.
Yeah and it seems to have that one flaw that ultimately kills it's biggest benefactors at least over generational scales, the money always flows uphill until the end (revolution) unless some countermeasures like progressive taxes, democracy, and social programs are put into place. That's why I respect capitalism as a part of society but not as the sole determiner of someone's status as a human being that should at least have a chance of a decent existence. I would counter that systems like anarchism (they will always be crushed by forces from within or without) and communism fall flat on their face every time except on small scales not bigger than a modern small town or less modern village.
I wonder if you know that there are ideologies like market socialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism, they too have a market, but they change the relation of ownership of a workplace from some specific owner class to actual workers in the workplace through changing workplaces to worker cooperatives among other postulates.
The market socialist idea is under full attack and in full retreat ever since the thing behind the wall collapsed. It was never more than a temporary pocket of peace, negotiated for by societys that remembered were the journey always ends.
It seems to me like the movement of worker cooperatives is growing and they seem to be on average much better workplaces than the normal workplaces.
Is the suggestion then that we need fewer teachers in order for the price of teaching labor to rise above costco? or that we need teachers to provide more economic value from their teaching labor? How do we measure economic production from teaching labor?
Why do you think teaching at a university is better than working at Costco? How do you decide the optimal number of university teachers vs. optimal number of Costco employees without the market test?
I don't have any emotional attachment to university teachers anymore than I have emotional attachment to buggy whip makers. Maybe a lot of the knowledge a university education provided can be obtained by moving to a major city and watching various Youtube documentaries for 4 years, augmented with debating people in Hacker News comments.
If your goal in life is to be happy, healthy, and fulfilled in purpose, hasn't universal university education been a recent phenomena, not required to fulfil one's life goals? Perhaps university life and its requisite bureaucracy is an aberration, not a requirement for human flourishing.
I don't have any emotional attachment to university teachers anymore than I have emotional attachment to buggy whip makers. Maybe a lot of the knowledge a university education provided can be obtained by moving to a major city and watching various Youtube documentaries for 4 years, augmented with debating people in Hacker News comments.
If your goal in life is to be happy, healthy, and fulfilled in purpose, hasn't universal university education been a recent phenomena, not required to fulfil one's life goals? Perhaps university life and its requisite bureaucracy is an aberration, not a requirement for human flourishing.
The professors I know are experts in their small domain (and most of them are really smart, but this is not my point here). They know all the nitty details, I am always amazed by their wide knowledge in discussions. I think for a society it is easily worth it to pay people to dig so deep into their field of interest and the market is not the right mechanism to enable that.
I also think Youtube is nice to get started, but I found it insufficient for graduate level material.
Not surprising given how the political class is connected to the capitalist class, at some points basically interests of the capitalist class determine the value of a labor in the current system. So labor that naively maximizes the corporations profits is more and more the only labor that has better than disgustingly low value in capitalist society. That's the magic of "free market" for you - the game is fundamentally rigged because of structural, systemic reasons.
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I was a tenure-track professor at a major US University (whose name I do not wish to remember). I was good at it too. But, because of my pay, I also qualified for financial assistance from the Federal and State governments. I quit when I was offered triple my salary by a private company. I gave the University two weeks notice, and finished teaching my course for that semester pro-bono.
Lots of my profs were this way. They made much more from their patent and other royalties in the Mining and Oil and Gas fields than they did from their teaching gigs. One told me once that the money he made from teaching didn't even pay his income tax. I went to a school that is one of the top for those industries, for context.
Same with one of my teacher in France. He had a few patents used in the automotive industry and nade more from that than from his salary.
Unfortunately, there is not enough demand for knowledgable humans, to keep up with the overwhelming supply.
Typical universe.
I've run out of sympathy for those who can't distinguish their survivorship bias from actual success.
(pullyourselftogether)
The reality is companies go through cycles of hiring and firing, something to do with interest rates. Times like these is when new small businesses are supposed to form, and I fear downsizing businesses let their best and worst go during these times: their star performers know how to survive and are least likely to come back with a wrongful termination lawsuit....and their worst are easily shown to be inadequate for the role anyway.
An "intelligent person" knows not to keep their eggs in one basket anyway. Such as our Professor in the story.
Typical universe.
I've run out of sympathy for those who can't distinguish their survivorship bias from actual success.
(pullyourselftogether)
The reality is companies go through cycles of hiring and firing, something to do with interest rates. Times like these is when new small businesses are supposed to form, and I fear downsizing businesses let their best and worst go during these times: their star performers know how to survive and are least likely to come back with a wrongful termination lawsuit....and their worst are easily shown to be inadequate for the role anyway.
An "intelligent person" knows not to keep their eggs in one basket anyway. Such as our Professor in the story.
I am not sure I understand the stigma. It is a ridiculously cool and useful skill to have. I am only reading up on it now ( with plans later to bamboozle wife to let met attend local community college classes to learn it in practice ).
Is it just the perception that it is not proper 'mind job'?
Is it just the perception that it is not proper 'mind job'?
We’ve drunk the koolaid that work with one’s hands is not respectable. Meanwhile the trades are mostly killing it and watching white collar workers with their hunched backs and lattes have their work slowly eroded by language models.
Social class isn’t a new phenomenon. Teachers and professors have long been the poorest members of the upper class.
So as a CTO, why do people think it’s extra cool that I build wooden boats, too? One of my role models is a retired Chevrolet mechanic who has never had to worry about money.
The stigma is just one more tragic falsehood that echoes around us.
The stigma is just one more tragic falsehood that echoes around us.
Guys, guys. There’s no stigma. I literally have ironworker friends. It’s just job to normal people here in the Bay Area. You guys are the only ones doing this.
This always happens on HN. Someone will go “Despite what people think, left handed people are not idiots. Some of the smartest people I know are left handed. I think it’s bullshit that everyone thinks they’re morons”. But nobody thinks that. WTH it’s normal stuff.
I’m literally in software here in San Francisco. My wife is in marketing. We don’t think this. Nobody I know thinks this wtf.
This always happens on HN. Someone will go “Despite what people think, left handed people are not idiots. Some of the smartest people I know are left handed. I think it’s bullshit that everyone thinks they’re morons”. But nobody thinks that. WTH it’s normal stuff.
I’m literally in software here in San Francisco. My wife is in marketing. We don’t think this. Nobody I know thinks this wtf.
I also live in the Bay Area, surrounded by highly educated people, many ethnicities, mostly in tech, some in law, medicine, etc.
I don't know a single person who has encouraged their kids to skip college and go into the trades. (Even when the kid has very little academic inclination, the parents pay for four years of private college.)
It's great that you have ironworker friends, but from what I see, "working with your hands" is not what most educated white-collar people want for their kids.
I don't know a single person who has encouraged their kids to skip college and go into the trades. (Even when the kid has very little academic inclination, the parents pay for four years of private college.)
It's great that you have ironworker friends, but from what I see, "working with your hands" is not what most educated white-collar people want for their kids.
Yeah, dude. For good reason. It’s a job with high physical risk. Everyone I know has had a workman’s comp issue or some injury or the other.
Moto X champion is a high-prestige position and I still don’t want my kids to do it. That’s not stigma. That’s called being aware of the risks.
When you’re off due to injury (like one of my friends who worked on T1 at SFO who hurt his back on the next job) it’s not great. And it takes a toll on you. That’s not stigma. That’s real. There’s no stigma. There’s just awareness of risk.
The dream is that your kids make a steady income at something they can enjoy or at least tolerate while not risking their physical health.
Moto X champion is a high-prestige position and I still don’t want my kids to do it. That’s not stigma. That’s called being aware of the risks.
When you’re off due to injury (like one of my friends who worked on T1 at SFO who hurt his back on the next job) it’s not great. And it takes a toll on you. That’s not stigma. That’s real. There’s no stigma. There’s just awareness of risk.
The dream is that your kids make a steady income at something they can enjoy or at least tolerate while not risking their physical health.
> The dream is that your kids make a steady income at something they can enjoy or at least tolerate while not risking their physical health.
Yep. The thing is, white collar (desk) jobs are bad for your health; physical and mental. I love my job but it comes at a price, too.
If you’re looking for steady work plumbing is where it’s at. Are we at 5000 years of continuous demand, and where skills are transferable across decades (maybe centuries)?
Yep. The thing is, white collar (desk) jobs are bad for your health; physical and mental. I love my job but it comes at a price, too.
If you’re looking for steady work plumbing is where it’s at. Are we at 5000 years of continuous demand, and where skills are transferable across decades (maybe centuries)?
I think people like to make all these claims but any blue collar worker would love a desk job. It’s easy and to stop paying the physical price you just stand up every hour and walk to the water cooler and then come back to a well-adjusted desk.
Ironworking and carpentry are actually hard on one’s body. You only need one fuck-up. And that’s nothing like being a roughneck.
These are not the RSI kind of injuries. These are the They Sent Me Home For a Year injuries.
Ironworking and carpentry are actually hard on one’s body. You only need one fuck-up. And that’s nothing like being a roughneck.
These are not the RSI kind of injuries. These are the They Sent Me Home For a Year injuries.
> I don't know a single person who has encouraged their kids to skip college and go into the trades.
Same-ish here. I have a brother in the trades (of seven siblings) and at least two cousins. But out of 23 nieces and nephews, zero AFAIK.
But also, this is 100% the circles I’m in — I get that.
Same-ish here. I have a brother in the trades (of seven siblings) and at least two cousins. But out of 23 nieces and nephews, zero AFAIK.
But also, this is 100% the circles I’m in — I get that.
The world is larger than San Francisco.
I don't really know about Nigeria, but certainly in parts of Europe (can't speak for all of it) stigma against these kind of more tech-oriented occupations is very real. Even for software devs by the way.
Don't extrapolate your limited experience from a tiny part of the world to everything. Your experience and SF ironworker friends mean bugger all for most of us.
I don't really know about Nigeria, but certainly in parts of Europe (can't speak for all of it) stigma against these kind of more tech-oriented occupations is very real. Even for software devs by the way.
Don't extrapolate your limited experience from a tiny part of the world to everything. Your experience and SF ironworker friends mean bugger all for most of us.
Tangentially related: I notice that in some EU countries, and the UK, people can skip universities, go into the trades, and do very well in "white collar professions" or in politics.
That's much less common in the US.
That's much less common in the US.
The world can be as large as it wants to be. But there’s a reason this forum came to be in the Bay Area and not in god knows where else.
Aren’t you also extrapolating “your limited experience from a tiny part of the world to everything“?
>I’m literally in software here in San Francisco. My wife is in marketing. We don’t think this. Nobody I know thinks this wtf.
I find people usually perpetuating that attitude are the blue collar workers themselves.
I find people usually perpetuating that attitude are the blue collar workers themselves.
My bet is that the stigma comes from indians and third world people who associate it with low socioeconomic status.
But it's worse in India, where being lower status means being a lesser human.
But it's worse in India, where being lower status means being a lesser human.
Honest work is honorable. Treating it with stigma is dishonorable.
It’s not an honor or dishonor thing here.
Typically welders earn less than professors in Nigeria.
IMO it’s a little short sighted to call the man just a welder. He owns a welding shop with multiple workers. Most welders don’t have that and are single operators or like his employees work under someone else.
He’s paying his workers $100 a month. Compare this to the $500 to $900 a month that professors take?
Typically welders earn less than professors in Nigeria.
IMO it’s a little short sighted to call the man just a welder. He owns a welding shop with multiple workers. Most welders don’t have that and are single operators or like his employees work under someone else.
He’s paying his workers $100 a month. Compare this to the $500 to $900 a month that professors take?
A dinner party with a CEO, doctor, lawyer, professor and a plumber. Who gets taken more seriously at the dinner table by the zeitgeist?
Taken more seriously about what? If it were a question about management, I'd probably take the CEO more seriously. Law, the lawyer. Medicine, the doctor. And plumbing (or probably any construction related question), the plumber.
the people who don't take the plumber seriously just dont know their shit.
That's true, however
Where I come from, you don't need a license (or any kind of study) to become a plumber.
That means the market is loaded with incompetent people who just don't mind grabbing a wrench and learning about the field in the process. And if they fuck up, they fuck up.
That means, finding a good plumber is a nightmare. A vast majority of them either do a mediocre job by accident, or they may actually try to scam you.
Where I come from, you don't need a license (or any kind of study) to become a plumber.
That means the market is loaded with incompetent people who just don't mind grabbing a wrench and learning about the field in the process. And if they fuck up, they fuck up.
That means, finding a good plumber is a nightmare. A vast majority of them either do a mediocre job by accident, or they may actually try to scam you.
Where I come from, you don't need a license (or any kind of study) to become a developer.
That means the market is loaded with incompetent people who just don't mind grabbing a framework and learning about programming in the process. And if they fuck up, they fuck up.
That means, finding a good developer is a nightmare. A vast majority of them do a mediocre job by accidentally, or they may actually try to scam you.
****************
In the US at least, plumbers need to be licensed after a probationary period where they learn the craft from other plumbers. They don't make much money initially, and it can take a few years before they become journeymen.
That means the market is loaded with incompetent people who just don't mind grabbing a framework and learning about programming in the process. And if they fuck up, they fuck up.
That means, finding a good developer is a nightmare. A vast majority of them do a mediocre job by accidentally, or they may actually try to scam you.
****************
In the US at least, plumbers need to be licensed after a probationary period where they learn the craft from other plumbers. They don't make much money initially, and it can take a few years before they become journeymen.
Is it any easier to find a good software developer?
[deleted]
If you think about it...
* they had halls of human computers 100 years ago
* they had halls of humans using computers a few years ago
so what is next?
* they had halls of human computers 100 years ago
* they had halls of humans using computers a few years ago
so what is next?
Halls of computers using humans?
M. Night Shyamalan plot twist:
The halls were always the ones controlling things.
The halls were always the ones controlling things.
Language models have been out to the public for less than a year.
The stigma comes from blue collar workers. My parents were fishermen, neither of them wanted me to become a fisherman because they went into their 40s with severe medical problems due to the strain work put on their bodies.
Trades can pay very lucratively but depending on what trade and where you are it's going to be brutal on you. That's why going union and taking proper safety measures sometimes even in spite of your employer is important
Trades can pay very lucratively but depending on what trade and where you are it's going to be brutal on you. That's why going union and taking proper safety measures sometimes even in spite of your employer is important
If you are in the Bay Area, I suggest Chabot College, and learn under Prof Johnson's night class. Hes an excellent instructor for both MIG and TIG. Really helped me step up my game.
There is no stigma. A professor is someone who's supposed to define your country's future by helping people grasp knowledge. Having or not having the right set of professors today makes a lot of difference to your country 50 years down the track. Only a small percentage of people can ever build themselves up to do that kind of work.
Welders make steel constructions that are used today. More than half of all people can be trained to weld well.
Having people move from university teaching to trades indicates a strategic misalignment with long-term growth.
Welders make steel constructions that are used today. More than half of all people can be trained to weld well.
Having people move from university teaching to trades indicates a strategic misalignment with long-term growth.
That’s not how it works in real life. Professors have PhDs in a narrow speciality in their field. They aren’t trained to be excellent teachers and teaching is often an unpleasant afterthought to them, as the main focus is doing research.
Professors aren't "trained". If you're not an excellent teacher you have no business being a professor. You're thinking "researcher".
"Professor" and "researcher" are synonymous at American research universities.
I've worked for two world-famous research universities. Getting tenure is insanely difficult, and has approximately zero to do with teaching ability.
(It's different for adjuncts, lecturers, others who are hired to teach. But they have different titles.)
I've worked for two world-famous research universities. Getting tenure is insanely difficult, and has approximately zero to do with teaching ability.
(It's different for adjuncts, lecturers, others who are hired to teach. But they have different titles.)
Again, that’s not how academia actually works. Professors are hired based on research output and potential, not teaching ability.
Totally agree. It’s a superpower to be able to reject the zeitgeist and do something against the grain. What’s weird is that there are “acceptable against the grain” directions (e.g. founding a startup in a risky space) and unacceptable directions, like working blue collar jobs/trades/etc.
Assuming he's able to be good at both jobs, I really envy what he's got going.
Going all-in on one's academic area can make for a narrow life.
Going all-in on one's academic area can make for a narrow life.
Why is this even surprising? Like most trades, they can be lucrative if you work hard and do quality work - none of the side benefits of a professorship though, like retirement, sick leave, holidays, physically easy work, and in many cases probably intellectually easy work too.
Welding may also provide a feeling of satisfaction in that you actually made/fixed a physical tool that satisfies a customer's real need, who thanks you and appreciates your handiwork.
That’s awesome! Though, I think the headline underplays what he’s doing and done
Having a part-time job as a welder for a private company would be awesome and no doubt useful in a variety of ways. However, he’s not only helping his countries technical industry as an individual contributor, he’s also running a small business and educating quite a few future welders
Many public-private partnerships between academia and industry, that were far better resourced, have a accomplished far less
Having a part-time job as a welder for a private company would be awesome and no doubt useful in a variety of ways. However, he’s not only helping his countries technical industry as an individual contributor, he’s also running a small business and educating quite a few future welders
Many public-private partnerships between academia and industry, that were far better resourced, have a accomplished far less
That's not awesome. He's paying his staff about 20% of what they're earning him and keeping the rest.
When they bring nothing but unskilled labor to the table, how much do you feel they are entitled to? 50%? I would call that a partner and expect them to bring their own tools and skills. That is not the situation described here. So, how much should they receive?
50% would probably be fair. Remember that he'd be keeping 50% _per employee_, which means he still makes 10x compared to them.
Re-onshoring of manufacturing means that all these trades will be in ultra high demand.
AI LLMs can't weld.
AI LLMs can't weld.
I mean, AI's (robots) weld on assembly lines. It's all about the context.
They do have indoor assembly line welding robots. But, they don't have welding robots for outdoor, ground-breaking construction job sites yet.
I mean, do they?
They do have indoor assembly line welding robots. But, they don't have welding robots for outdoor, ground-breaking construction job sites yet.
I mean, do they?
Not all welds are equal, tacking a frame together isn't the same as a pipe weld.
We're not far off having adaptive autonomous pipe welding in-situ.
https://www.thefabricator.com/thefabricator/article/tubepipe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLx3oDt9Who
We're not far off having adaptive autonomous pipe welding in-situ.
https://www.thefabricator.com/thefabricator/article/tubepipe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLx3oDt9Who
Onshoring manufacturing is a given why?
Mostly because China's leadership is getting totalitarian, corrupt, ineffective, and warlike ... I've seen projections on some combo of all of the above, but really none that are even "everythings fine!" except those that have tinges of totalitarian psychology.
China isn't that cheap anymore either. They have machine tooling and economies of scale.
The US is basically in a cold war with China since they are now the principle global rival.
China's population is set to decline by a massive amount from one child policy. This combined with other supposed economic boondoggles will collapse the system.
The world learned that ultra extended supply lines aren't a good thing in COVID, and the world just seems to be going to a more chaotic era with likely lots of wars over resources, population displacement from global warming, and lots of other not-fun stuff.
Finally, the United States is becoming more isolationist. With the shrinking geopolitical importance of oil, the US might stop enforcing Pax Americana on the high seas. The primary function of the navy was to secure petroleum, and now with EVs, alt energy, and the Bakken Shale we don't need to do that for us, or the rest of the world.
So... take your pick
China isn't that cheap anymore either. They have machine tooling and economies of scale.
The US is basically in a cold war with China since they are now the principle global rival.
China's population is set to decline by a massive amount from one child policy. This combined with other supposed economic boondoggles will collapse the system.
The world learned that ultra extended supply lines aren't a good thing in COVID, and the world just seems to be going to a more chaotic era with likely lots of wars over resources, population displacement from global warming, and lots of other not-fun stuff.
Finally, the United States is becoming more isolationist. With the shrinking geopolitical importance of oil, the US might stop enforcing Pax Americana on the high seas. The primary function of the navy was to secure petroleum, and now with EVs, alt energy, and the Bakken Shale we don't need to do that for us, or the rest of the world.
So... take your pick
Is there some first-principles reason why this is surprising? Why shouldn't welding pay more than teaching?
I loved this story about the Nigerian professor who also works as a welder and employs people to make ends meet. Here in the West we often see 9-5 jobs as the norm to survive, but in many places around the world people have to be entrepreneurs and inventive just to put food on the table.
>>"Unfortunately I found out engineering here was more theoretically based and I needed a place to express myself"
Not only is it more fulfilling to do both, but we can also be confident that the hands-on welding experience also makes him a better engineer.
Great to see it.
Not only is it more fulfilling to do both, but we can also be confident that the hands-on welding experience also makes him a better engineer.
Great to see it.
Some 15-20 years ago I was traveling in Egypt. Like good tourists we stopped at a papyrus store. Proprietor was a medical doctor. Why selling papyrus to tourists? Pays more.
Just supply and demand, guys.
Just supply and demand, guys.
Yes, supply and demand matters a lot. In my country becoming a doctor is particularly lucrative even by Western world's standards, because a combination of our broken healthcare system (and doctor's association's successful lobbying to keep numbers of doctors being educated too low) creates an artificial shortage of doctors. Many of them choose to work 3-4 days a week in private sector and still live very, very well. The public sector is forced to buy services from private with very inflated prices, again allowing those companies offer excellent salaries.
At the same time professions like engineering are actually underpaid here, not to even mention nursing.
At the same time professions like engineering are actually underpaid here, not to even mention nursing.
And where is Egypt in the global hierarchy of nations? Not very high. This should tell you something.
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Supply & Demand - it's the law!
not surprising, weldings dope. I have this antique book that has photos of early welding setups... those dudes had to have been paid well too!
Welding takes an enormous physical toll on your body. It is dope but not something you want to be doing all day every day.
Yeah I know. My father has been a welder on ships (shipfitter), tugs, and subs his entire career. My brother and Cousins followed. I mig and tig auto shit at home, mostly stainless manifolds.
Was trying to be supportive but yall come at me with his unhumble comment about welding like you know me! lol
Was trying to be supportive but yall come at me with his unhumble comment about welding like you know me! lol
This is really great
"Nigerian" here is redundant.
Making more as a welder than a professor is standard everywhere.
(To be honest, welding is a harder job and requires more stringent qualifications.)
(To be honest, welding is a harder job and requires more stringent qualifications.)
What's the rate on welders going blind as they age?
I would imagine the metal fumes are also likely to be a statistical hazard over the long term as well.
With proper welding masks, it isn't really an issue.
Backs, knees, lungs and hearing are though.
Backs, knees, lungs and hearing are though.
The trades seem like a great gig these days.
drewcoo(2)
> academic snobs
Root issue and an unfortunate reality
Root issue and an unfortunate reality
> He has 10 apprentices - aged between 12 and 20 - at the workshop where he is teaching them the skills of the trade.
> "Even as apprentices, he gives us 10,000 naira every month and a daily stipend for food."
That's $11.36 per month. How much does the owner keep if retained earnings meet or exceed a normal salary for an academic in Nigeria?
> Academics in Nigeria have long struggled on modest salaries, most earning between 350,000 naira ($390; £305) and 500,000 ($555; £435) a month
More than about 80%, if there are no other costs. This is a story about entrepreneurship, not a recognition of manual skill, or an expose of underpaid academics.