Gaza: 23M tonnes of debris 'will take years to clear'(news.un.org)
news.un.org
Gaza: 23M tonnes of debris 'will take years to clear'
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147616
42 comments
Even an article hosted in united nation's domain, is flagged to death. It's quite astonishing to see this suppression of anything, if it doesn't support one particular narrative. Maybe its better to keep it unflagged, the least that it stays up, without allowing things to go to a flamewar.
There's extensive mod commentary about how and why this works the way it does:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973
Such a humanitarian disaster :(
I wont be able to see the world with the same eyes as before.
I wont be able to see the world with the same eyes as before.
Especially the European leaders, what a way to discredit themselves in the books of history.
I am especially disgusted by the German leaders. Especially Robert Habeck. To think I could have voted for him. Even Macron who is as Machiavellian as they come didn't put his full support behind Israel.
ericfrazier(2)
1.4K boys, girls, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandparents were tortured, raped, and murdered on October 7th.
It will take decades to recover.
It will take decades to recover.
Both sides have extremists who resort to terrorism, but ultimately, the Palestinians are still the victims, and the Israelis do hold the power and therefore the responsibility to put an end to the conflict.
There is sort of this weird cognitive dissonance that happens in the brains of first worlders. When they see a rich developed country oppressing a poorer powerless people. They recognize the wrong, but they sort of accept it as some sort of inevitability. When the poorer people then dare resort to violence, the first worlders are then suddenly aghast with horror.
How much do you protest the settlements in the West Bank? How much did you protest the inhuman statelessness of the Palestinians? How much do you protest when every couple of days Palestinians are murdered with impunity by Israeli settlers? How much do you protest when the IDF decides to intern without any legal recourse anyone of Palestinian descent? How much do you protest when the Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons are tortured and raped, and even beaten to death? How much do you protest when the IDF targets Palestinian journalists in Gaza on purpose to hide their war crimes? They also bomb their families too. How much do you protest when the IDF targets medical infrastructure in Gaza? How much do you protest when Israeli IDF snipers murder civilians at random for sport, including journalists, (foreign) peace activists, Christians, medical personnel and children?
There is sort of this weird cognitive dissonance that happens in the brains of first worlders. When they see a rich developed country oppressing a poorer powerless people. They recognize the wrong, but they sort of accept it as some sort of inevitability. When the poorer people then dare resort to violence, the first worlders are then suddenly aghast with horror.
How much do you protest the settlements in the West Bank? How much did you protest the inhuman statelessness of the Palestinians? How much do you protest when every couple of days Palestinians are murdered with impunity by Israeli settlers? How much do you protest when the IDF decides to intern without any legal recourse anyone of Palestinian descent? How much do you protest when the Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons are tortured and raped, and even beaten to death? How much do you protest when the IDF targets Palestinian journalists in Gaza on purpose to hide their war crimes? They also bomb their families too. How much do you protest when the IDF targets medical infrastructure in Gaza? How much do you protest when Israeli IDF snipers murder civilians at random for sport, including journalists, (foreign) peace activists, Christians, medical personnel and children?
The Israeli come from a long history of millennia of persecution for their faith.
That past violence and the fact that they are excellent storytellers and record keeper of thir faith makes this situation special
Israelis might hold the power now but as far as Arabs vs. Jews is concerned the Jews suffered a whole lot more (or at least they have been able to convey their suffering and make people empathize a whole lot more)
That past violence and the fact that they are excellent storytellers and record keeper of thir faith makes this situation special
Israelis might hold the power now but as far as Arabs vs. Jews is concerned the Jews suffered a whole lot more (or at least they have been able to convey their suffering and make people empathize a whole lot more)
Crafting the story as "Arabs v. Jews" or "Muslims v. Jews" is a propaganda narrative. It's Palestinians vs far-right Israelis. There are people of all faiths and ethnicities on both sides.
What the Arabs (not the Palestinians) did wrong, which hurt the Palestinian cause immensely was to expel the Mizrahim after the Nakba. Might have felt like pay back at the time, but it cemented the current geopolitical situation.
But in any case the way forward is deradicalize both peoples and guarantee protections for both.
What the Arabs (not the Palestinians) did wrong, which hurt the Palestinian cause immensely was to expel the Mizrahim after the Nakba. Might have felt like pay back at the time, but it cemented the current geopolitical situation.
But in any case the way forward is deradicalize both peoples and guarantee protections for both.
Even the super civil and Western like UAE only normalized relationships with Israel after the Trump administration made it a priority
Not every Arab in the region is going to grab an AK and march on Tel Aviv but if your message implies that the 500M strong Arab population in the region have come to like or even hold a neutral stance as it relates to Israel that's wrong. Very wrong.
Think about how Russia is perceived in Europe now, except constantly for 50+ years, during skermishes and wars they are perceived the way Ukranians percieve Russians now.
When there is background hatred noise it's only a matter of time until it explodes
Not every Arab in the region is going to grab an AK and march on Tel Aviv but if your message implies that the 500M strong Arab population in the region have come to like or even hold a neutral stance as it relates to Israel that's wrong. Very wrong.
Think about how Russia is perceived in Europe now, except constantly for 50+ years, during skermishes and wars they are perceived the way Ukranians percieve Russians now.
When there is background hatred noise it's only a matter of time until it explodes
What sounds sensible to me is for Israel to somehow incorporate the Palestinians in a way that Israelis can still feel secure and trust their own government, but without the need to keep a boot pressing on the neck of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people should be afforded the same judicial and military protection that Israelis currently enjoy.
What the wider region thinks of Israel is something else entirely. I most definitely do not condone any kind of ethnic-based violence. Israel should still continue to serve as a safe haven for Jews worldwide.
What the wider region thinks of Israel is something else entirely. I most definitely do not condone any kind of ethnic-based violence. Israel should still continue to serve as a safe haven for Jews worldwide.
The only thing muslims hold against Jews is that they succesfully defend themselves. Kurds are being massacred, no one cares, least of all muslims. Armenians were being subjected to an Azerbeijani genocide, a month before this conflict started. No muslim cares. In Yemen, Sunni and Shi'a are committing genocide on eachother ... for decades now. Aside from an obvious disastrous failure by Saudi Arabia, no-one is doing anything. In Sudan, somewhat black muslims are killing somewhat more black muslims, because of skin color. No one cares.
EACH of the named conflicts has at minimum double the number of victims of the Gaza conflict. Sudan at least 10x more. Yemen, as well, is far worse than the Gaza conflict.
The problem in the middle east ... is not hatred against Jews. Sorry. It isn't.
Given what muslims in the middle east call peace, then I'm sorry to say but peace is worse than war. Much, much worse.
EACH of the named conflicts has at minimum double the number of victims of the Gaza conflict. Sudan at least 10x more. Yemen, as well, is far worse than the Gaza conflict.
The problem in the middle east ... is not hatred against Jews. Sorry. It isn't.
Given what muslims in the middle east call peace, then I'm sorry to say but peace is worse than war. Much, much worse.
It's wrong to say that no one cares. Many, many Muslims have spoken out, and there are many humanitarian efforts being run.
The fact of the matter is that the middle east is still in the shadow of colonialism post WWI. Every time there is an effort to unite, there is immediate intervention by the west, in order to preserve their interests. We saw what happened in Egypt for example when Mursi was elected. It is in the vested interest of the west for conflict to continue in the ME. joe biden is on record for saying that if there was no israel, they would have to create one.
The fact of the matter is that the middle east is still in the shadow of colonialism post WWI. Every time there is an effort to unite, there is immediate intervention by the west, in order to preserve their interests. We saw what happened in Egypt for example when Mursi was elected. It is in the vested interest of the west for conflict to continue in the ME. joe biden is on record for saying that if there was no israel, they would have to create one.
> It's wrong to say that no one cares.
OK, lets say people care way less. like 99.5% less if we count demonstrations and social media outrage.
OK, lets say people care way less. like 99.5% less if we count demonstrations and social media outrage.
From observations and interactions, it's actually over 90% who care.
The "attempts to unify"? You mean Daesh/ISIS? There has been no other attempt to unify so you must mean that. The muslim brotherhood, Morsi, is Hamas/PIJ.
This is what is so depressing about some muslims. Let's face facts here: you see massacres and destruction as a positive, not a negative, as long as they "serve islam", and want to turn the middle east back into the hellhole it was before oil.
And "serve islam", only in a superficial way ... it should be said that of course this sort of attitude is giving EVERY world power reason AND excuse to destroy islam. Russia is trying to destroy islam, in Chechnya and the Caucasus. India is now trying to destroy islam, in Kashmir (and everywhere else they can). China is trying to destroy islam, in Xinjang, and even in parts of Pakistan. Iran is trying to destroy Islam (yes, really, they will massacre entire countries before they allow a caliph). Australia ... Half of Europe now has governments trying to destroy islam, and if Trump gets elected, out of 6 inhabited continents on earth ONLY ONE will not have government policies targeting islam ... well done, fuck man, well done. Obviously, the next decades are going to be VERY painful for the middle east, islam, and even muslims in the west. VERY painful. Surely that can't be hard to see? And all you see is more opportunity for destruction. Fuck man.
I don't understand people like you, I mean, you must realize that even the internet as a whole, never mind a forum like this, is ENTIRELY and heavily against islam, for 100 different reasons. So why are you here if you have even the smallest amount of faith in what you say? You want to live in a supposedly religious hellhole? Go and do that. Plenty of choices available. STOP trying to conquer places.
This is what is so depressing about some muslims. Let's face facts here: you see massacres and destruction as a positive, not a negative, as long as they "serve islam", and want to turn the middle east back into the hellhole it was before oil.
And "serve islam", only in a superficial way ... it should be said that of course this sort of attitude is giving EVERY world power reason AND excuse to destroy islam. Russia is trying to destroy islam, in Chechnya and the Caucasus. India is now trying to destroy islam, in Kashmir (and everywhere else they can). China is trying to destroy islam, in Xinjang, and even in parts of Pakistan. Iran is trying to destroy Islam (yes, really, they will massacre entire countries before they allow a caliph). Australia ... Half of Europe now has governments trying to destroy islam, and if Trump gets elected, out of 6 inhabited continents on earth ONLY ONE will not have government policies targeting islam ... well done, fuck man, well done. Obviously, the next decades are going to be VERY painful for the middle east, islam, and even muslims in the west. VERY painful. Surely that can't be hard to see? And all you see is more opportunity for destruction. Fuck man.
I don't understand people like you, I mean, you must realize that even the internet as a whole, never mind a forum like this, is ENTIRELY and heavily against islam, for 100 different reasons. So why are you here if you have even the smallest amount of faith in what you say? You want to live in a supposedly religious hellhole? Go and do that. Plenty of choices available. STOP trying to conquer places.
Your post comes across as extremely condescending and even racist. Your parent does not deserve this.
I don't get it. He makes a slightly obscured reference and you don't get to call him out on wanting to convert a country into an islamist/terrorist state? Just because the GP doesn't name it directly?
I would call out a Frenchman singing the praises of Le Pen as well. I bet people would ALSO say Le Pen is trying to "unify France". She is, kind of. Genetically, so to speak. She's a monster. Not on equal footing with Trump, she is far worse. This is serious. Likewise, Egypt has their fascists, the "muslim brotherhood", and Morsi was at one point their champion.
If he didn't get deposed, we might be fighting WW3 now. Really.
I would call out a Frenchman singing the praises of Le Pen as well. I bet people would ALSO say Le Pen is trying to "unify France". She is, kind of. Genetically, so to speak. She's a monster. Not on equal footing with Trump, she is far worse. This is serious. Likewise, Egypt has their fascists, the "muslim brotherhood", and Morsi was at one point their champion.
If he didn't get deposed, we might be fighting WW3 now. Really.
Your parent (who never indicated their preferred 3rd person pronouns btw.) never mentioned ISIS, that was you. They mentioned efforts to unite, and you took the leap of logic and stated they must mean ISIS. This is extremely condescending.
I say this is a leap of logic, because your narrative is ahistorical. There have been plenty of groups that sought to unify the Muslim world, not necessarily under a single state, and the Muslim Brotherhood is one of those groups. ISIS is not one of these groups however as they sought to rule the Muslim word, not unify. It is the same as saying that Nazi Germany was trying to unify Europe.
Your post also came across as racist, although I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way. The reason is you use very loaded and unfair words to describe the Muslim world (such as “hellhole”) and you speak of Muslim affairs as their self created doom, as if they don’t interact with with wider world, only simple action and reaction. They did this, we do that, etc, so really it is them doing it to them selves. I’m not saying you said that, but it sure sounds like you were going that route.
I say this is a leap of logic, because your narrative is ahistorical. There have been plenty of groups that sought to unify the Muslim world, not necessarily under a single state, and the Muslim Brotherhood is one of those groups. ISIS is not one of these groups however as they sought to rule the Muslim word, not unify. It is the same as saying that Nazi Germany was trying to unify Europe.
Your post also came across as racist, although I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way. The reason is you use very loaded and unfair words to describe the Muslim world (such as “hellhole”) and you speak of Muslim affairs as their self created doom, as if they don’t interact with with wider world, only simple action and reaction. They did this, we do that, etc, so really it is them doing it to them selves. I’m not saying you said that, but it sure sounds like you were going that route.
He mentioned Morsi, and how unfair it is that he was not given control of Egypt. Morsi is muslim brotherhood, and parts of that organisation is Hamas/PIJ/IJ, which is referred to as "Daesh" in Europe/France, there is no real difference between these organisations. Most definitely, Daesh wanted to "unify the muslim world". And sorry but these are obviously religious organisations.
They're also worse than Nazis. If these people come to power, war WILL start. And absolutely guaranteed: it won't stop at Israel. It will be WW3. There will soon be no other choice left for anyone.
So I disagree strongly: how can I get you to understand that this is comparable to complaining how unfair it is that Hitler wasn't given full control of Germany after the election result of July 1932?
They're also worse than Nazis. If these people come to power, war WILL start. And absolutely guaranteed: it won't stop at Israel. It will be WW3. There will soon be no other choice left for anyone.
So I disagree strongly: how can I get you to understand that this is comparable to complaining how unfair it is that Hitler wasn't given full control of Germany after the election result of July 1932?
How long will it take to recover from the 30,000+ boys, girls, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandparents killed and maimed in Gaza?
Israel's response to the brutal atrocities of Hamas has been to create even larger ones.
Where does this all end?
Israel's response to the brutal atrocities of Hamas has been to create even larger ones.
Where does this all end?
If Israel could have removed all Hamas presence from Gaza without harming a fly, it would have done so already.
Ask Hamas if they would be willing to co exist with jews, on this same piece of tiny land you'll get your answer.
They state their intention in their covenant, plain and simple:
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)"
Ask Hamas if they would be willing to co exist with jews, on this same piece of tiny land you'll get your answer.
They state their intention in their covenant, plain and simple:
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)"
You would be right if that had happened out of the blue but, Palestinians have been bullied and humiliated for decades and, at the same time Israel has been financing extremist movements in Gaza.
If we're going to start going down the adolescent blame game, what was happening until October 6? How many pre-teens were in Israeli jails getting tortured, raped, etc? We all saw how the hostages - sorry prisoners - released by Israel walked [1].
How are illegal settlements built? With a friendly smile and cash payment, or with non-uniformed combatants with AR15 spraying bullets at fleeing homeowners? (For what it's worth, the guns makes settlers legitimate targets and the lack of uniform means they are not covered by the Geneva convention)
Those of us fortunate enough to follow Hebrew media (as I have since I was a boy decades ago) saw how the hostages released by Hamas all claimed they were well treated and not raped until the narrative flipped.
You know... memories.
Oh, we have selective memory? Ok, well tens [2] of thousands of dead Palestinian kids and the largest genocide [3] in decades have erased the world's memory of Oct 7.
[1] Turns out Israeli tortures kids in jail! But, we knew that. Every intl. law organization has thoroughly documented that for decades. Israeli media is great, btw; there's a recent Israeli documentary interviewing old IDF soldiers laughing at their past exploits raping pre-teens). Turns out the IDF has been using rape as a weapon since the 40s.
[2] Actually probably a hundred thousand by now. The 30k are the recovered bodies, not the missing under the rubble.
[3] Yes it is a genocide - all you need to do is go to Israeli hebrew language media and read, listen, see how Israelis, especially government ministers, are taking.
How are illegal settlements built? With a friendly smile and cash payment, or with non-uniformed combatants with AR15 spraying bullets at fleeing homeowners? (For what it's worth, the guns makes settlers legitimate targets and the lack of uniform means they are not covered by the Geneva convention)
Those of us fortunate enough to follow Hebrew media (as I have since I was a boy decades ago) saw how the hostages released by Hamas all claimed they were well treated and not raped until the narrative flipped.
You know... memories.
Oh, we have selective memory? Ok, well tens [2] of thousands of dead Palestinian kids and the largest genocide [3] in decades have erased the world's memory of Oct 7.
[1] Turns out Israeli tortures kids in jail! But, we knew that. Every intl. law organization has thoroughly documented that for decades. Israeli media is great, btw; there's a recent Israeli documentary interviewing old IDF soldiers laughing at their past exploits raping pre-teens). Turns out the IDF has been using rape as a weapon since the 40s.
[2] Actually probably a hundred thousand by now. The 30k are the recovered bodies, not the missing under the rubble.
[3] Yes it is a genocide - all you need to do is go to Israeli hebrew language media and read, listen, see how Israelis, especially government ministers, are taking.
[deleted]
ericfrazier(2)
Ssh.