Ahead of IPO, Reddit blends advertising into user posts(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Ahead of IPO, Reddit blends advertising into user posts
https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/16/reddit_promoted_posts/
169 comments
Twitter does this. Ads are the exact same format as posts, with the exception of a subtle 'Ads' label in the upper right. Of course everyone reads from left to right, so you can't really skim your feed without having your mind hijacked by at least the ad headline.
Even more insidious on Twitter: actual user posts (videos specifically) being promoted into your feed, with no ad label. However, the actual ad (which is not particularly well disclosed) is the pre-roll ad on the video - the user post is just the vehicle to do so. [0]
In your feed, it is indistinguishable.
Because I have Mr Beast blocked, I kept on getting posts from BANG! Showbiz, because the video selection available to Twitter isn't particularly high quality.
[0]: An example: http://web.archive.org/web/20240302013005/https://twitter.co...
In your feed, it is indistinguishable.
Because I have Mr Beast blocked, I kept on getting posts from BANG! Showbiz, because the video selection available to Twitter isn't particularly high quality.
[0]: An example: http://web.archive.org/web/20240302013005/https://twitter.co...
> Of course everyone reads from left to right
Almost everyone - I wonder if they move the "Ad" disclaimer to the left side when the UI is set to something like Arabic or Hebrew.
Almost everyone - I wonder if they move the "Ad" disclaimer to the left side when the UI is set to something like Arabic or Hebrew.
Sometimes they don't even both to include the "Ad" label next to the "..." menu on the tweet:
https://www.awise.us/images/2024-twitter-ad.jpg
https://www.awise.us/images/2024-twitter-ad.jpg
Tabloids like the National Enquirer were known for this but it was originated much earlier by far.
With something like reddit when it starts taking place where it never was before, you're supposed to be convinced you are getting the same thing you have been getting all along, even though it's not always the case any more.
Reminds me a bit of how it was before Whole Foods went public. They were a local Texas healthy market with upscale tendencies and some of the products were outstandingly well-sourced and completely world-class. Especially the minority of imported goods, or most of them wouldn't have even been there. One day some of those fancy European lines began to be replaced systematically with lesser alternatives and newly emerging house brands. They already had a few stores by then, not just the first two in Houston and Austin. The replacement products were not shabby, they were above average but nowhere near world-class most of the time, and this action was scattered throughout the store.
Before too long I found out they were going to go public, that was an IPO I did make decent money on. Co-incidentally that was one I had to inform brokers about, not the other way around.
OTOH, my Whole Foods shopping has gradually dwindled since before the 21st century, to almost nothing by now, an average of zero trips per month.
The more subtle the deception, sometimes the more annoying it can be.
With something like reddit when it starts taking place where it never was before, you're supposed to be convinced you are getting the same thing you have been getting all along, even though it's not always the case any more.
Reminds me a bit of how it was before Whole Foods went public. They were a local Texas healthy market with upscale tendencies and some of the products were outstandingly well-sourced and completely world-class. Especially the minority of imported goods, or most of them wouldn't have even been there. One day some of those fancy European lines began to be replaced systematically with lesser alternatives and newly emerging house brands. They already had a few stores by then, not just the first two in Houston and Austin. The replacement products were not shabby, they were above average but nowhere near world-class most of the time, and this action was scattered throughout the store.
Before too long I found out they were going to go public, that was an IPO I did make decent money on. Co-incidentally that was one I had to inform brokers about, not the other way around.
OTOH, my Whole Foods shopping has gradually dwindled since before the 21st century, to almost nothing by now, an average of zero trips per month.
The more subtle the deception, sometimes the more annoying it can be.
Google also did this. One days ads stopped being pale yellow divs but very close to actual results.
There's a great timeline[1] showing how Google transitioned from the 'don't be evil' company to what it is today. Page and Brin at Stanford[2] laid into the fundamental problem of mixed motives that advertising-funded search engines have (see "Appendix A: Advertising and Mixed Motives").
Reddit and twitter aren't search engines, but they're dealing with related issues: the incentive to deceive visitors of their sites in order juice ad effectiveness and boost profits.
[1] https://searchengineland.com/search-ad-labeling-history-goog...
[2] http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/papers/google.pdf
Reddit and twitter aren't search engines, but they're dealing with related issues: the incentive to deceive visitors of their sites in order juice ad effectiveness and boost profits.
[1] https://searchengineland.com/search-ad-labeling-history-goog...
[2] http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/papers/google.pdf
are we watching boeingification of the web2 era ?
Fun thing is when you block enough of these ad accounts you start to get some really freaky ads.
This is me. I blocked so many that nowadays all I get are fake marijuana ads and sex toy ads.
No I don't regularly smoke or otherwise imbibe weed and I definitely don't do stuff that would link me with a need for sex toys lol. And judging by the replies I see to those tweets it's happening to other users too.
No I don't regularly smoke or otherwise imbibe weed and I definitely don't do stuff that would link me with a need for sex toys lol. And judging by the replies I see to those tweets it's happening to other users too.
Sometimes I wonder if targeted ads are just a giant hoodwinking by big tech over retail businesses. I constantly get youtube ads in languages I don't speak, for tampons or bras (I'm a man), or of musicians in genres I don't listen to. These all seem like extreme table-stakes targeting that can often be inferred from the singular video I'm watching alone, not even including my watch history.
I always like seeing stuff like tampon and washing powder ads (I don't own a washing machine). Because it shows my tracking is blocked successfully.
I literally click "allow all" to tracking cookies everywhere. I also get completely inappropriate ads e.g. in languages I don't speak, for services to sell cars (I don't own a car) etc.
They're now making it so you can't block the account that posted the ad, instead you can just say "I don't like this ad" - which still results in the same ad being shown regardless.
I'm still only seeing this on some ads; not sure if it's a gradual rollout or A/B testing. Either way, I'm sure it won't be too long before it's all ads being served like this :(
I'm still only seeing this on some ads; not sure if it's a gradual rollout or A/B testing. Either way, I'm sure it won't be too long before it's all ads being served like this :(
Any reason you dont just use an ad blocker? I havent seen an ad on Twitter... ever?
And yes, this includes mobile.
And yes, this includes mobile.
Text seems like a much more difficult medium to bring ads in such that it feels ‘right’ while still being noticed. YouTube is effectively analogous to burying the ad Indicator late in the reading cycle by not indicating to you which video is going to have an ad when you read the thumbnail.
I don't think that is the same, because the ad is clearly not the video, as opposed to seeing the video while thinking it was the video forst
From my perspective since the ad cannot be skipped the ad is not separate from the video runtime experience behind the thumbnail - except in your reception of it.
Also another notable indicator of the coupled relationship between ad and video, being demonetized hurts the videos exposure.
Also another notable indicator of the coupled relationship between ad and video, being demonetized hurts the videos exposure.
> Of course everyone reads from left to right, so you can't really skim your feed without having your mind hijacked by at least the ad headline
This is an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of. I wonder if would be possible to use custom CSS to move that label to the left instead of the right? It wouldn't be a replacement for blocking ads outright, but it also feels like it might be something that would be harder for them to outright prevent.
This is an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of. I wonder if would be possible to use custom CSS to move that label to the left instead of the right? It wouldn't be a replacement for blocking ads outright, but it also feels like it might be something that would be harder for them to outright prevent.
Twitter ads are so spammy that I right away know that its an ad nowadays.
...but you can block them with uBlock Origin:
twitter.com##div[data-testid="cellInnerDiv"]:has(span:has-text(/^Ad$/))uBlock Origin already blocks them by default at the request level, no need to hide the actual HTML element
easier to just not use twitter
It’s funny how the exodus from Digg to Reddit occurred because Digg was going to do sponsored posts. Now Reddit is going public.
The minority group of original users only really impact things when the market is small.
Scale sucks in that way.
The minority group of original users only really impact things when the market is small.
Scale sucks in that way.
> the exodus from Digg to Reddit occurred because
Well, it was one factor. Digg had a lot of problems. The big rewrite went disastrously. It was one giant site with no real focus and one big comments section: it devolved into unmoderatable chaos. Sponsored posts probably weren't the straw that broke the camel's back.
Well, it was one factor. Digg had a lot of problems. The big rewrite went disastrously. It was one giant site with no real focus and one big comments section: it devolved into unmoderatable chaos. Sponsored posts probably weren't the straw that broke the camel's back.
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The exodus started with a change to comment threading that made the comment section a place for reactions rather than a place for conversation/analysis.
Reddit did the equivalent to this at the time of its redesign. Years ago.
Granted, they were a lot less loud about the change than Digg, but they didn't suffer anything near the same amount of hate.
Granted, they were a lot less loud about the change than Digg, but they didn't suffer anything near the same amount of hate.
What are you referring to? I’ve been a redditor since I was a digg refugee, and I can’t remember any meaningful change to the commenting system since then. Maybe some different sorting mechanisms with different defaults, but that’s about it.
I bet you noticed a change on the comments themselves.
It took me a while to even understand why things changed. The appearance of shallower posts, like memes was severely boosted, while textual posts lost a lot of emphasis, to the point they became harder to interact with. The sorting of posts was changed so they would cycle faster, and people stopped having enough time to interact on the comments section. Deep threads got completely hidden...
There was no change large enough to make people pay attention. But the end result was the same.
It took me a while to even understand why things changed. The appearance of shallower posts, like memes was severely boosted, while textual posts lost a lot of emphasis, to the point they became harder to interact with. The sorting of posts was changed so they would cycle faster, and people stopped having enough time to interact on the comments section. Deep threads got completely hidden...
There was no change large enough to make people pay attention. But the end result was the same.
> I bet you noticed a change on the comments themselves.
I guess. Everything on the internet has changed in those 15 years though. It doesn't seem fair to attribute most of that to Reddit the product. There are still plenty of deep threads on Reddit if you know where to look.
I guess. Everything on the internet has changed in those 15 years though. It doesn't seem fair to attribute most of that to Reddit the product. There are still plenty of deep threads on Reddit if you know where to look.
> It doesn't seem fair to attribute most of that to Reddit the product.
So when everything becomes crap, it become acceptable? I guess Digg was simply ahead of its time before it can capture the market that would resonate with the low quality imageboard style of threads.
> There are still plenty of deep threads on Reddit if you know where to look.
The last time I read a chain deeper than maybe, 6 comments that I didn't regret was years ago.
But in all fairness, most of those deep deep threads are just two people trying to get the last word in. So it wasn't a high percentage even before the shift.
So when everything becomes crap, it become acceptable? I guess Digg was simply ahead of its time before it can capture the market that would resonate with the low quality imageboard style of threads.
> There are still plenty of deep threads on Reddit if you know where to look.
The last time I read a chain deeper than maybe, 6 comments that I didn't regret was years ago.
But in all fairness, most of those deep deep threads are just two people trying to get the last word in. So it wasn't a high percentage even before the shift.
> But in all fairness, most of those deep deep threads are just two people trying to get the last word in. So it wasn't a high percentage even before the shift.
Yeah, it's worth pointing out that the website you're on has functionality that actively discourages deep threads for that reason.
Yeah, it's worth pointing out that the website you're on has functionality that actively discourages deep threads for that reason.
The feed quality was also tanked overnight with no rollback plan or A/B testing
I'm confused. Reddit has had ads that look like normal posts for ages. What's actually different about these new ones?
They used to be really obvious, now they are less obvious.
Like every other search engine, social media platform, etc. ever. Remember when ads on Google were highlighted with a big yellow block? Now they look exactly like regular search results, just with "sponsored" in small text at the top. And my guess is they went with "sponsored" instead of "ad" or some such because for some subset of the population it's probably not even clear that sponsored=paid advertisement.
> Remember when ads on Google were highlighted with a big yellow block?
https://kagi.com/signup
https://kagi.com/signup
The infinite growth problem / enshittification of modern capitalism. We will endlessly try to squeeze more blood out of a rock until it crumbles entirely.
It's funny in a way. We talk about how risk averse big companies are compared to smaller, more nimble startups. Yet those same big companies don't seem to be risk averse to making aggressive squeezing changes like these.
It's funny in a way. We talk about how risk averse big companies are compared to smaller, more nimble startups. Yet those same big companies don't seem to be risk averse to making aggressive squeezing changes like these.
Is there significant risk in slowly clawing away user experience? If it happens incrementally enough, users are unlikely to leave.
According to TFA it appears that the old ads used to only link externally, or to a post made by a real user. Now the ads are posts themselves that self-link to Reddit.
Revanced on Android can patch the Reddit apk to remove those ads.
https://revanced.app/
https://revanced.app/
Just stop using reddit.
Use Lemmy which has a good number of FOSS clients already. If you miss the content from specific subreddits, there are instances that mirror the content. If you still really want to interact with people on Reddit, I am working on a bridge.
Use Lemmy which has a good number of FOSS clients already. If you miss the content from specific subreddits, there are instances that mirror the content. If you still really want to interact with people on Reddit, I am working on a bridge.
Not nearly as good. Reddit is probably the only place I can find answers for a lot of obscure topics.
Not yet, but once the bridges are set up, you will be able to find the content on the Fediverse (it's stored in the mirrors) and you'll be able to reach the people no matter where they are.
I've tried on several occasions, but I just haven't found those niches yet on Lemmy (I use it through kBin). It's kinda there but also still kinda empty one you go outside the more general feeds.
The sad reality is a lot of reddit operated off the minority of power users. And those power users are either still on Reddit, went somewhere else entirely (maybe Discord), or are "retired". The network effect will take a while to overcome, if it's overcome at all.
The sad reality is a lot of reddit operated off the minority of power users. And those power users are either still on Reddit, went somewhere else entirely (maybe Discord), or are "retired". The network effect will take a while to overcome, if it's overcome at all.
That’s still like a 10 year lag time. If the process to find those answers involves anything beyond typing in the query followed by “fediverse” or whatever on google, it’s not going to happen.
This is a separate issue. I'm not saying "don't ever visit Reddit again", I'm saying "You should be able to follow and interact with the subreddits through Lemmy".
How do you find these instances? I quit Reddit after being a user for 13 years once they killed the API for 3rd parties.
There are some subreddits I’d like to browse still but I definitely won’t be joining back into that dumpster fire.
I’ve been using Lemmy but it’s honestly aggravating to use in many ways.
There are some subreddits I’d like to browse still but I definitely won’t be joining back into that dumpster fire.
I’ve been using Lemmy but it’s honestly aggravating to use in many ways.
I stayed away from Reddit for probably nine months after that scandal, and pop back in occasionally now. It has gotten significantly worse.
Apollo was the only way I used Reddit - the browser experience is meh, and I’m almost always using Old Reddit when I go there on desktop or mobile because it’s just easier to get what I’m looking for. Once Old gets the axe I’m sure I’ll be there even less than I am now.
It’s a bummer too - I think my weekly screen time report had me using Apollo on average like 6 hours a day, I was very active in a couple small and fun communities, and the places with news relevant to me were all subbed and easily surfaced. Losing my primary tool was all it took to take me from a pretty engaged and active user to someone who stops by because a search result took me there.
It’s a bummer too - I think my weekly screen time report had me using Apollo on average like 6 hours a day, I was very active in a couple small and fun communities, and the places with news relevant to me were all subbed and easily surfaced. Losing my primary tool was all it took to take me from a pretty engaged and active user to someone who stops by because a search result took me there.
I'm working on a project that is meant to provide a migration path for people like you: https://github.com/mushroomlabs/fediverser.
The idea is that Lemmy instance admins can use this service alongside their Lemmy server to provide two things:
- "Login with Reddit", to make it easier for people to create an account on the Lemmy server. - A reddit-to-lemmy community map.
The idea is that when someone logs with Reddit OAuth, we can get their list of subreddits, and then auto-subscribe the user to the corresponding Lemmy communities, solving the onboarding issue and the content discovery in one go.
There is also a website, https://fediverser.network, where I'm crowdsourcing the data to make the mapping between subreddits to lemmy communities.
The idea is that Lemmy instance admins can use this service alongside their Lemmy server to provide two things:
- "Login with Reddit", to make it easier for people to create an account on the Lemmy server. - A reddit-to-lemmy community map.
The idea is that when someone logs with Reddit OAuth, we can get their list of subreddits, and then auto-subscribe the user to the corresponding Lemmy communities, solving the onboarding issue and the content discovery in one go.
There is also a website, https://fediverser.network, where I'm crowdsourcing the data to make the mapping between subreddits to lemmy communities.
Are there any advantages to using the official Reddit app instead of something like RedReader?
https://github.com/QuantumBadger/RedReader
https://github.com/QuantumBadger/RedReader
Nsfw posts is a big one i think. In the opposite direction, RedReader doesn't seem to have the disguised ads
I'm surprised this works, I thought Reddit effectively killed apps that rely on its API?
With all the data that’s being put up for sale by Reddit to AI companies, why do they still focus on ads? They could focus on a better user experience (unlike the @*^% move last year to cut off almost all third party apps and strangle the rest to death slowly). The value of gathering more content from users in order to freely sell it to companies should be a lot higher than tweaking ad placement and styling. Seems like u/spez (Reddit’s CEO) ran out of decent and ok ideas a long time ago and has been acting out of spite time and again.
I’m a firm believer that the MBAifcation of the world is one of the great evils of our time. That extracting every last option, selling everything possible, exploiting your environment, running as lean as possible with no concern for difficult times… is a lot of what is going wrong.
So what I re-pose to you isn’t “Why isn’t Reddit selling just data or just ads” it’s “Why would their executives ever consider leaving money on the table?”
So what I re-pose to you isn’t “Why isn’t Reddit selling just data or just ads” it’s “Why would their executives ever consider leaving money on the table?”
With competition users, there can be new sites and users can show these companies with their clicks. I get what you’re saying but consumers are apparently ok with it to an extent. It’s not an evil like labor camps and bread lines. :)
>but consumers are apparently ok with it to an extent
to be blunt, consumers are lazy and that is how the network effect goes from "household name" to "too big to fail". Like a frog boiling, by the time the user eventually leaves 10 more are jumping in.
to be blunt, consumers are lazy and that is how the network effect goes from "household name" to "too big to fail". Like a frog boiling, by the time the user eventually leaves 10 more are jumping in.
I agree. Breadlines are bad. But this isn’t a capitalism vs communism/socialism thing. I’m not saying MBAs are the alternative to breadlines. I’m saying that given the rate we are going they are another cause.
As far as consumers being OK with things. That is another major cause of our problems, selectable-outrage which I think is from a corrupt media. And a corrupt media… also run by MBAs trying to extract every possible resource, run as lean as possible with resources a media org has like reputation and goodwill, eliminating the costly things like difficult research-journalism in favor of Clickbait BS.
I think there’s about seven things wrong with our time. MBA-ification is only one.
The next two would be a corrupt media and a complexity-crisis that no one sees coming.
As far as consumers being OK with things. That is another major cause of our problems, selectable-outrage which I think is from a corrupt media. And a corrupt media… also run by MBAs trying to extract every possible resource, run as lean as possible with resources a media org has like reputation and goodwill, eliminating the costly things like difficult research-journalism in favor of Clickbait BS.
I think there’s about seven things wrong with our time. MBA-ification is only one.
The next two would be a corrupt media and a complexity-crisis that no one sees coming.
It's not only MBAification.
The world's economy has suffered a global, organized, and incredibly large dumping attack against a huge set of industries and social organizations.
The good news is that it seems to have stopped.
The world's economy has suffered a global, organized, and incredibly large dumping attack against a huge set of industries and social organizations.
The good news is that it seems to have stopped.
Perhaps you are seriously underestimating the actual dollars companies spend on advertising.
> With all the data that’s being put up for sale by Reddit to AI companies, why do they still focus on ads?
Why would they leave money on the table after the bulk of their users proved to be docile in the face of so much recent enshittification?
Why would they leave money on the table after the bulk of their users proved to be docile in the face of so much recent enshittification?
old.reddit.com
What’s are the chances just before/after IPO, old.reddit.com shuts down?
What’s are the chances just before/after IPO, old.reddit.com shuts down?
I feel like we need to do a PSA campaign for unaware users that old.reddit.com exists. Sorta like the remember to check your tire pressure. Feel bad for folks that use the new ui unwittingly
[deleted]
Honestly, since i set Kagi to rewrite my searches to old.reddit, i have forgotten new reddit exists lol.
I hope someone makes a forum on top of ATProto. Their tech stack is far more interesting to me compared to ActivityPub, but i just can't stomach the Twitter-style UI of Bluesky to switch to that from Reddit.
I hope someone makes a forum on top of ATProto. Their tech stack is far more interesting to me compared to ActivityPub, but i just can't stomach the Twitter-style UI of Bluesky to switch to that from Reddit.
The day they shut down old.reddit.com (or the preferences option to fall back to the old site by default) is the day I stop using reddit permanently.
They likely know many users feel this way even if they're not the majority, which means old will probably go dark after the IPO (and after a bunch of people bought into their "direct share program")
While I agree that old.Reddit is the only way to use that unfortunately-required site… it will not fix the obvious and subtle shilling.
There's also teddit! I host my own instance and access it with Tailscale. I use a Kagi rewrite rule so that Reddit results link to my teddit instance.
https://github.com/teddit-net/teddit
https://github.com/teddit-net/teddit
If old.reddit.com does go away, so will I. The "newer" version is truly horrid.
Especially the extra-lazy comment loading, which seems to only be getting worse with time. Threads that go too deep now require navigating to a new page, and comments frequently have "1 more reply" that either never loads or doesn't actually exist.
They did promise to not shut it down but not sure I’d trust them to stick to it
One more nail in reddit's coffin.
Since the API kerfluffle reddit's usefulness has dropped drastically.
Making ads look like user posts definitely kills the platform for me. They killed my platform and I killed my account.
Muxing ads. Who'd have thunk it?
Since the API kerfluffle reddit's usefulness has dropped drastically.
Making ads look like user posts definitely kills the platform for me. They killed my platform and I killed my account.
Muxing ads. Who'd have thunk it?
I agree usefulness has dropped, I agree, mixing in ads, will hurt them.
But, I bet in the time since the API kerfuffle, they’ve gained users and engagement.
But, I bet in the time since the API kerfuffle, they’ve gained users and engagement.
Reddit thinks they’re going to sell data but their system is extremely easy to scrape (including post API changes) and all the relevant players procured that data a long time ago.
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What's everyone's take on that IPO and the shares for reddit users?
Buying shares at the IPO hoping for an immediate profit means that you are betting that the underwriter has underpriced the shares. That seems unlikely.
That’s common practice. Most of the time, the shares are sold before the IPO to financial institutions at the list price to guarantee a certain volume of sale and liquidity for the IPOing company. Those institutions expect a first day pop, so it’s common for the list price to be below the expected market price. It also looks better for the company if the stock goes up on day one. None of that maximizes cash to the company, but there are other considerations (and actors) in play.
Everyone’s take? My inexpert opinion is that current stakeholders want their exit and the IPO isn’t for the users to really buy or promote. Reddit has enough mainstream recognition for casual investors who don’t use Reddit to try and make some money on the fresh IPO. But then it just becomes a tulip as reality sets in. There’s definitely a chance to make money in greater fool scenarios but also much greater risk.
But I’m just a guy making noise. Maybe it’ll rocket to the moon and you can fire life.
But I’m just a guy making noise. Maybe it’ll rocket to the moon and you can fire life.
Honestly? Reddit is a corpse being propped up like in Weekend at Bernie's in a hope to keep the party going long enough for them to dump enough shares on the secondary market.
The founders and bigwigs have cashed out. Ohanian made his fortune and exited years ago, the CEO just made $193m in compensation. Can't be much milk left in the cow.
The founders and bigwigs have cashed out. Ohanian made his fortune and exited years ago, the CEO just made $193m in compensation. Can't be much milk left in the cow.
I really hope that is the case. The site sucks. It's got decent product reviews and porn though. That doesn't make it a good investment to me but we'll see.
Just because we cheer for something to fail like twitter doesn't mean it happens overnight. Even though it should and would be hilarious.
Just because we cheer for something to fail like twitter doesn't mean it happens overnight. Even though it should and would be hilarious.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bulk of the existing stakeholders are severely limited in what they can sell over the first, what, 3-6 months, beyond the shares that are part of the IPO.
I believe you’re right but my hypothetical is that it won’t have some Robinhoodesque IPO but that it falls in an inevitable but unpredictable short to medium interval. Long enough for me to want more gains if i invest but short enough for me to lose everything because I can’t time it right. Stoachastic if you will. A proper microtubule disassembly that leaves me with my little worthless tubules. Tulipules?
AFIAK, preferred shares (the ones investors buy) typically aren't subject to a lockup once they convert to common stock. They usually don't dump right away since they don't want to tank the market unless the company is actually dogshit and they're pawning it off on a bigger fool.
Rumors are they aren't anywhere close to profitability, seeing their SEC filings will be interesting, especially if they disclose who they sell data to...
No need for rumours, their S-1 is available. And no, they are not profitable. They spent something like $800M on staff last year, which is insane to me.
It's a pump and dump, the site will just get worse and worse for the user base as they attempt to squeeze whatever cash flow they can from it post IPO.
Reddit understands that its biggest value is as a gigantic pump and dump forum to dump their bags onto.
Smells of desperation more than anything to me.
I plan to short it soon after the IPO
I’ve thought about doing this as a more general IPO strategy on the assumption that there’s going to be a sell-off of employee owned equity.
I’m sure that there’s a way to estimate the number of shares vested by employees and come up with an estimate sell-off volume for day 0-1
I’m sure that there’s a way to estimate the number of shares vested by employees and come up with an estimate sell-off volume for day 0-1
Aren’t employees usually restricted on selling for like 6 months?
Well then you should circle that date 6-mo after IPO (or the end of any non-IPO blackout period) as days with mass sell-offs regardless of the stock price
You act like that isn’t cooked into the optimizations of the market. It is, or everyone could follow your get-rich-quick scheme. Go ahead, try us a few time, see how it goes.
But is that actually baked in to the price? (I’m legitimately asking, not being argumentative)
Back when I worked at a big public company where we had options and employee blackout dates, there would almost always be a dip in the stock price when the blackout was lifted
Back when I worked at a big public company where we had options and employee blackout dates, there would almost always be a dip in the stock price when the blackout was lifted
The "baked into the price" also includes the price of options. I would not be surprised to find that the price premium of options dated around the 6 month window would negate the gain from the drop.
They have a legion of mods working for them for free and still aren't profitable. Whatever you may feel about the denizens of WSB, they all see reddit as nothing more than a shorting opportunity.
Once the mods start getting missives about modding policy from whatever new board takes over post IPO, then things will start to disintegrate.
Once the mods start getting missives about modding policy from whatever new board takes over post IPO, then things will start to disintegrate.
Normally they'd fall into irrelevance as Digg did, but their last desperate cry is an IPO. Weird times. Either way they're now absolutely hostile towards casual commenters, posters, and viewers. Their data dumps up until maybe 2023 will be valid and interesting only for some limited time.
Easiest IPO that will be shorted as soon as the VCs and other employees can dump their stock on the public markets either dumping a small percentage such as 20% on IPO day or they will do it after the lock up period or both.
Which ever comes first.
Which ever comes first.
It's generous of Reddit to make that offer. The last time I recall having such an opportunity was VALinux back in 1999. However, despite having a 4 letter username and "cake day" in 2008, and regular, solid contributions, I just barely didn't qualify. Karma whores easily do qualify, so that's a bit hard to swallow. But my wife does do a LOT of interaction there and did qualify, so I'm trying to figure out exactly what to do. My thoughts so far:
The big problem is I'm not sure that Reddit, the company, really understands it's business. Though I was expecting the protests of the last year to have gone much further than they did, I think Reddit's response could have been much better, and their response demonstrates their lack of a solid business plan. In particular, the importance of redditors and moderators to their business isn't reflected in their plans (AFAICT).
I think that may end up backfiring.
I feel like their IPO would be better priced closer to a 4.5B valuation rather than the 6.5B they seem to be targeting. There is some potential upside to it, as there might be some justification for a market cap of 10B. But there's a big wildcard in there: the Directed Share Program to redditors have no "cooling off" period, so there's likely going to be some volatility due to "get in, get out". But, the DSP shares have "one vote per share", which might contribute towards people holding them. But that's 8% of offered shares, and offered shares are around 20% of total valuation, so that may be a small enough percentage of shares with high volatility that it won't have a big impact.
The WallStreetBets crowd might have an impact, that will be fun to watch from afar. I'm not expecting anything there, but who knows.
I'm kind of expecting some backlash of the community to the extraction of value by Reddit the company, but I haven't really heard any noises along those lines. I could see their value dropping significantly over the next year because of this. There's a lot of fatigue over the techno-elite extracting value off "the little people's backs". And Lemmy is really well positioned for facilitating a mass exit from Reddit.
The recent news of advertisers making posts that look like regular user posts is, IMHO, leaning in a bad direction. In my mind, that is reminding me of one of the primary things I've seen in Facebook that has dropped my engagement to near-zero levels.
But, there are a lot of other tech companies watching Reddit and hoping for a good IPO leading the way for other similar IPOs. Maybe that will lead interest.
Over all, I'm expecting short term excitement, but longer term rough times for Reddit the company.
But, my investment plans have, in too many situations, been exactly the opposite of the market; I've bought just before the market drops and sold right before it goes up...
The big problem is I'm not sure that Reddit, the company, really understands it's business. Though I was expecting the protests of the last year to have gone much further than they did, I think Reddit's response could have been much better, and their response demonstrates their lack of a solid business plan. In particular, the importance of redditors and moderators to their business isn't reflected in their plans (AFAICT).
I think that may end up backfiring.
I feel like their IPO would be better priced closer to a 4.5B valuation rather than the 6.5B they seem to be targeting. There is some potential upside to it, as there might be some justification for a market cap of 10B. But there's a big wildcard in there: the Directed Share Program to redditors have no "cooling off" period, so there's likely going to be some volatility due to "get in, get out". But, the DSP shares have "one vote per share", which might contribute towards people holding them. But that's 8% of offered shares, and offered shares are around 20% of total valuation, so that may be a small enough percentage of shares with high volatility that it won't have a big impact.
The WallStreetBets crowd might have an impact, that will be fun to watch from afar. I'm not expecting anything there, but who knows.
I'm kind of expecting some backlash of the community to the extraction of value by Reddit the company, but I haven't really heard any noises along those lines. I could see their value dropping significantly over the next year because of this. There's a lot of fatigue over the techno-elite extracting value off "the little people's backs". And Lemmy is really well positioned for facilitating a mass exit from Reddit.
The recent news of advertisers making posts that look like regular user posts is, IMHO, leaning in a bad direction. In my mind, that is reminding me of one of the primary things I've seen in Facebook that has dropped my engagement to near-zero levels.
But, there are a lot of other tech companies watching Reddit and hoping for a good IPO leading the way for other similar IPOs. Maybe that will lead interest.
Over all, I'm expecting short term excitement, but longer term rough times for Reddit the company.
But, my investment plans have, in too many situations, been exactly the opposite of the market; I've bought just before the market drops and sold right before it goes up...
Thanks for the quality comment. I basically just buy and hold VTSAX and call it good, rather than worrying about individual companies. I'm mostly just curious if there'll be enough of a 'pop' with the stock to make buying some shares worth it.
That is generally a very good strategy. I have a lot (~50%) of my investments in Target Retirement Plans, though I have put them out about 5 years from my real retirement date, just to keep them a bit more high-return longer since I feel like I can handle that risk.
However, my FIL gave me some great advice 5-6 years ago: Take a little bit, and put it into things you like, to keep investing "fun". In my case I'm doing around 2% in "fun stocks". Personally, it's pretty hard to argue with since my first "fun stock" that I did that with was TSLA, and I got a 20x return on that. My new "fun" set have been other EV and energy stocks, largely, and have generally done quite poorly, a 2-3 of them are down 95+%, but that's over 2 years and my window was more like 5, so time will tell. A handful are up 30-50%. So, some of it depends on your definition of "fun". :-D
However, my FIL gave me some great advice 5-6 years ago: Take a little bit, and put it into things you like, to keep investing "fun". In my case I'm doing around 2% in "fun stocks". Personally, it's pretty hard to argue with since my first "fun stock" that I did that with was TSLA, and I got a 20x return on that. My new "fun" set have been other EV and energy stocks, largely, and have generally done quite poorly, a 2-3 of them are down 95+%, but that's over 2 years and my window was more like 5, so time will tell. A handful are up 30-50%. So, some of it depends on your definition of "fun". :-D
Everyone seems to make this mistake that read its core business is social. And that means they sell data.
They’re selling influence. Mostly to kids. To the terminally online. The new Politically Religious.
The standard MO to ban all decent isn’t because the admins/mods actually disagree, it’s that it makes the echo chamber more uniform. They’re culling wrong think to sell things, sure, but more so ideas.
When you consider that “reputation” is a product that politicians, celebrities and companies can just purchase, I think it makes a lot of sense what Reddit can sell.
They’re selling influence. Mostly to kids. To the terminally online. The new Politically Religious.
The standard MO to ban all decent isn’t because the admins/mods actually disagree, it’s that it makes the echo chamber more uniform. They’re culling wrong think to sell things, sure, but more so ideas.
When you consider that “reputation” is a product that politicians, celebrities and companies can just purchase, I think it makes a lot of sense what Reddit can sell.
I'm going to disagree with you that Reddit is selling influence. I think they're selling eyeballs and user-created data. Both of which highly depend on Reddit's reputation with it's users, and that is what I think Reddit is going to have problems with.
Wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole
The users of Reddit are some of the most anti ads on the planet. I have done a lot of advertising and Reddit performs so poorly that it is not worth it. Having ads blend in won't make a difference.
The real scary thing about the Reddit IPO is that we are headed into the age of the "strongman" leader and both Reddit and Twitter have been the preeminent voice of those against strongmen and tyranny. It was Reddit that gave those in Hong Kong, Ukraine, and Gaza a voice and promoted solidarity for them.
Both Reddit and Twitter are experiencing a capitalist assault because both threaten capitalist power. Twitter was neutralized when it was sold. Reddit is now being neutralized.
Shareholder influence will prevent Reddit from being a platform that can be used to speak truth to those strong enough to harm it.
This IPO is Reddit's graduation ceremony from a platform for speaking truth to power, to a platform for the exercise of power.
Both Reddit and Twitter are experiencing a capitalist assault because both threaten capitalist power. Twitter was neutralized when it was sold. Reddit is now being neutralized.
Shareholder influence will prevent Reddit from being a platform that can be used to speak truth to those strong enough to harm it.
This IPO is Reddit's graduation ceremony from a platform for speaking truth to power, to a platform for the exercise of power.
uBlock Origin lists seems that not yet blocked those ads since I'm able to see it https://www.reddit.com/user/PhillyCanada/comments/12ykrp1/he...
To be fair to Reddit, Reddit ads are consistently the best ads I’ve seen. I think Reddit formats the ad and makes it with the company to uphold the Reddit vibe and many times the ad also says something witty in the context of the subreddit I’m browsing (my guess is ads are limited to subreddits). The worst ads are twitter and YouTube, just a chore that I would much rather have skipped.
One reddit ad I saw was from a company that provides the service to "back up your GitHub repositories".
Don't know if that company is still around.
Don't know if that company is still around.
Are you saying there's something bad about backing up repositories? That seems like a very good service to have.
I believe the implication is that one can 'back up' by pushing to any number of remotes
I can't edit now, but an example occurred to me. A false dichotomy we often see: Self-hosted SCM, or elsewhere like Gitlab/GitHub?
Why not both? Mirrors are another way of looking at backups
Why not both? Mirrors are another way of looking at backups
Was it us ?
I know that we have, on many occasions, run ads on Reddit highlighting exactly that use-case.
I know that we have, on many occasions, run ads on Reddit highlighting exactly that use-case.
IIRC that kind of subtle advertising is the kind reddit likes
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I am very grateful that we had a web with standards, and browsers with extensions.
I have adblockers and custom rules to block Twitter ads, YouTube comments, Reddit ads.
I can’t do any of these on mobile apps. It’s an entirely closed platform.
Imagine if the web was as closed as iOS and Android where apps dictate the experience you can have.
This makes me sad. We confused “bicycle for the mind” and built a “cage for the mind”
I have adblockers and custom rules to block Twitter ads, YouTube comments, Reddit ads.
I can’t do any of these on mobile apps. It’s an entirely closed platform.
Imagine if the web was as closed as iOS and Android where apps dictate the experience you can have.
This makes me sad. We confused “bicycle for the mind” and built a “cage for the mind”
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It always seems like the current owners and top managers of Reddit don't use it. If they were, things could be much better for the community and probably the business. Again, the official Reddit app seems done by your high school cousin in a mobile development course.
Dogfooding is so important.
It reminds me of a recent twist to the EV space in North America where Ford, and then all other players, decided to switch their EVs to Tesla's NACS connector.
This interview recently is really grounding. Basically Ford's CEO went on a road trip and actually tried the EV road tripping experience with a non-Tesla (non-Tesla charging stations that is) and saw how dogshit it was. That started conversations to actually try and improve the situation for customers (thus the change to NACS).
Timestamp link to the interview: https://youtu.be/7vE0KXHZXCY?t=244
It reminds me of a recent twist to the EV space in North America where Ford, and then all other players, decided to switch their EVs to Tesla's NACS connector.
This interview recently is really grounding. Basically Ford's CEO went on a road trip and actually tried the EV road tripping experience with a non-Tesla (non-Tesla charging stations that is) and saw how dogshit it was. That started conversations to actually try and improve the situation for customers (thus the change to NACS).
Timestamp link to the interview: https://youtu.be/7vE0KXHZXCY?t=244
Despite the jargon use of the term, I don't think dog food CEOs actually eat their dog food, because it is for dogs. Similarly Reddit is for Redditors.
All the kids in my neighborhood growing up tried a Milk Bone at one point. Close enough right?
Somebody already posted that the (it was only one) CEO actually did.
I'll just point out that dog food is food. It may not be healthy for a human in large amounts, but it can't be worse than eating fast food for a week or so.
I know an unreasonably large amount of people that claimed to try it. Most when they were children. I doubt that my bubble is unusual on this.
I'll just point out that dog food is food. It may not be healthy for a human in large amounts, but it can't be worse than eating fast food for a week or so.
I know an unreasonably large amount of people that claimed to try it. Most when they were children. I doubt that my bubble is unusual on this.
I'd except them to at least feed their own dogs the dog food they make though.
Nah, this isn’t a matter of people wanting the site to be good but not knowing what to do. They know that they’re making the experience worse, and they don’t care because it makes them slightly more money. We’re well past the point where people are doing “build the thing you’d want to use”.
Sorry, don't agree. In business, like in sports, there are forced and unforced errors [1]. Reddit commited many unforced errors. Have you used their ads system? I tried and did since it was created. It seems done by my other cousin younger than the one developing the Reddit app in the garage.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/29k5i7/can_someone_...
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/29k5i7/can_someone_...
I always hear these complaints about the Reddit app and I honestly don’t know what people are talking about. Sure, there’s a few UX things that could be improved, like almost every app. But I’m a heavy user with multiple accounts and I rarely have issues. My main issue is some stuff around the video player UX but it’s pretty minor. What are people so worked up about?
FWIW, I’ve been a heavy Reddit user for over a decade, across web and various mobile clients. I’ve also been a full time iOS engineer since 2010, and their app would be a huge effort to recreate. It’s amateurish to suggest that any single dev could build it in a year, let alone a weekend. I’m NOT defending their business practices either. But their mobile app is fine.
FWIW, I’ve been a heavy Reddit user for over a decade, across web and various mobile clients. I’ve also been a full time iOS engineer since 2010, and their app would be a huge effort to recreate. It’s amateurish to suggest that any single dev could build it in a year, let alone a weekend. I’m NOT defending their business practices either. But their mobile app is fine.
Did you try any other apps? The official Reddit app didn't even come close to their usability. As far as saying that no single dev could build it in a year - well I don't know how long it would've taken for the latest codebases, but to my knowledge RIF and Apollo (perhaps the most popular unofficial apps for Android and Apple, respectively) were developed by single people, and they were widely praised for being far more usable than the official app.
Yes, I used a bunch of them over the years. And yeah, they were fine, but that doesn’t answer my question about what exactly is wrong with the official Reddit client to garner so much hate.
They were widely considered to be significantly better. The official app had less features, was often annoying to use, and just didn't even work all the time. At least for RIF, I liked: better performance, more reliable (official app would just decide not to load ANY media sometimes), no notification spam, higher density information, more customizable, better separation between ads and posts (and a small purchase to get rid of them entirely), the list goes on. It was pretty obvious once you used them for a day or two.
They were “widely considered” to be better, but again, almost never with any specifics. Just knee jerk hate.
And I don’t have any of those issues with the official client, other than the ad one. The performance is great, it’s very reliable, I have most notifications disabled except for a couple things I care about (and the notification settings are pretty fine-grained).
Maybe the customization stuff could be more extensive? But I don’t want 1000 settings for every tiny little thing. Regardless, it hardly seems like a complaint that people would get so worked up over.
Maybe the official client used to be much worse and I don’t remember, but increasingly I think people are just pissed about Reddit cutting off the alternative clients and hate being forced to change, so they moan and groan as if the official client is the worst app they’ve ever used. When really, it’s fine.
And I don’t have any of those issues with the official client, other than the ad one. The performance is great, it’s very reliable, I have most notifications disabled except for a couple things I care about (and the notification settings are pretty fine-grained).
Maybe the customization stuff could be more extensive? But I don’t want 1000 settings for every tiny little thing. Regardless, it hardly seems like a complaint that people would get so worked up over.
Maybe the official client used to be much worse and I don’t remember, but increasingly I think people are just pissed about Reddit cutting off the alternative clients and hate being forced to change, so they moan and groan as if the official client is the worst app they’ve ever used. When really, it’s fine.
It sounds like you don't have a problem with it. Maybe you never encountered the issues, or maybe you just have a higher tolerance for them. I did give specifics, and if you cared to look they're well documented - it's hardly knee jerk hate. Over 1.5 million people were annoyed enough by them to buy Apollo alone. And for the record, these complaints were present from far before Reddit decided to get so stingy with their API.
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HN has ads-that-look-like-posts too. They're mostly job postings for Y Combinator startups—a perk of that incubator being getting privileged positions on HN's front page.
I filter them with uBlock.
I filter them with uBlock.
They have very nearly zero negative impact on my experience though.
Except for the 'OneSignal' startup ones. I always think they're posts related to Signal (the messaging app) for a bit.
I always find it odd when startups pick names that resemble large, unrelated companies. BuildZoom is another one - has nothing to do with Zoom
Not sure about onesignal, but I’m pretty sure BuildZoom long predates the zoom video conferencing tool being a household name.
There’s an element of luck, but also the names are part of the culture from the time they’re created. Multiple people often come up with very similar names for different things just because of what’s going in the world around them.
There’s an element of luck, but also the names are part of the culture from the time they’re created. Multiple people often come up with very similar names for different things just because of what’s going in the world around them.
This must be why those "EasyPost is hiring" posts show up every 3-4 weeks like clockwork. I assumed they were just bad at employee retention.
I filter them too. Anyone who posts an ad and doesn't allow comments is a coward.
One thing I really liked about Reddit and Twitter ads is that they did allow comments. I think that started to change when I stopped using them.
At least they are predictable and closely related to to the community. I can sort of understand that a startup accelerator that runs a discussion board on the side would want to post job postings for their own startups on their own discussion board.
(Also the fact that YC runs HN isn't exactly hidden - the first hint is right there in the URL)
I think it would be something completely different if YC suddenly showed promoted posts from unrelated "partners" or just opened this up as an advertising opportunity to the general public.
(Also the fact that YC runs HN isn't exactly hidden - the first hint is right there in the URL)
I think it would be something completely different if YC suddenly showed promoted posts from unrelated "partners" or just opened this up as an advertising opportunity to the general public.
I agree. I think this is one of the key reasons HN succeeds as it does: the narrow, delimited incentives on the part of YC.
All of the writing and discussion that exists on HN, which isn't a YC ad, is a "halo" to attract and retain readers to this forum (and see the YC logos and YC ads). That's their primary incentive: attract users, attract a specific culture of users. It's an incentive aligned with quality and pleasantness for us. The daily forum experience isn't the revenue source; to monetize that, YC would risk losing more (on their YC-halo boosting side) than they could expect to gain (from McDonald's ads, or whatever).
This is the diametric opposite of how most social media platforms think about users, and their business models around them. The Reddit IPO is a case study: they've willingly chased away countless millions of users with an abrasive, horrible forum experience, because they calculate they can extract more revenue from those that remain. Where HN is a "narrow, tall" revenue source surrounded by free stuff, Reddit is "wide and short": everyone and everything is the product.
All of the writing and discussion that exists on HN, which isn't a YC ad, is a "halo" to attract and retain readers to this forum (and see the YC logos and YC ads). That's their primary incentive: attract users, attract a specific culture of users. It's an incentive aligned with quality and pleasantness for us. The daily forum experience isn't the revenue source; to monetize that, YC would risk losing more (on their YC-halo boosting side) than they could expect to gain (from McDonald's ads, or whatever).
This is the diametric opposite of how most social media platforms think about users, and their business models around them. The Reddit IPO is a case study: they've willingly chased away countless millions of users with an abrasive, horrible forum experience, because they calculate they can extract more revenue from those that remain. Where HN is a "narrow, tall" revenue source surrounded by free stuff, Reddit is "wide and short": everyone and everything is the product.
If you cant comment on a post, it's not a post but a shitty ad.
Tells me that VCs are afraid of actual criticism, and 'no comment ad-posts' are their version of a safe space.... for critiques.
Tells me that VCs are afraid of actual criticism, and 'no comment ad-posts' are their version of a safe space.... for critiques.
- "If you cant comment on a post, it's not a post but a shitty ad."
Right, that's the basis of my uBlock rule. :)
Right, that's the basis of my uBlock rule. :)
news.ycombinator.com##:xpath(//td[contains(@class,"subtext")]):not(:has-text(/\b(comment|comments|discuss)\b/i)):xpath(.. | ../following-sibling::tr[1] | ../preceding-sibling::tr[1]):style(display: none)Now that you posted your secret, Dang can update the html to bypass you rule
I bet that doesn't happen.
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If anyone wants a legitimate business opportunity that’s admittedly notoriously difficult to monetize, consider starting a Reddit for porn. Once they’re public, all it takes is some bad PR (“I was sex trafficked on reddit” or “Reddit profited off a video of the abuse I was a victim of while underage”) for them to throw in the towel on the adult content that comprises half or more of their site. at which point there will be an overnight exodus seeking a similar platform. Reddit is a spineless and liberal company and will cave to pressure. Just my theory on a likely future event.
Reddit for porn already exists. On Reddit.
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What does "liberal" have to do with anything else you've said here? Are conservatives known for their friendliness to online porn sites?
My use of the word liberal is not related to my use of the word spineless. There’s an “and” there and those are two unrelated adjectives. Doesn’t read well, though.
Yes I do believe the politics of the organization are relevant to assessing the likelihood of this event.
Yes I do believe the politics of the organization are relevant to assessing the likelihood of this event.
in secret, yes
Interesting idea to advertise on Reddit front page. I suppose there’s value in edgelords, bots generating GPT ATH stories, and political shills. Good luck to them!
I think there’s so much more value and being able to purchase public opinion even if you think it is just ‘fringe edge lords’ than you realize.
I guess we'll see what the value really is soon.