BYD Got €3.4B Chinese Aid to Dominate EVs, Study Says(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
BYD Got €3.4B Chinese Aid to Dominate EVs, Study Says
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3-4-billion-chinese-aid-to-dominate-evs-study-says
25 comments
Less than what we throw at Intel
or TSMC.
And this is for a good environmental cause.
And this is for a good environmental cause.
How much did Tesla get?
I don't often say this, but I feel like the reddit comment section covers all the bases https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1c2ixsh/b...
This is like the Dr Evil scene in Austin Powers when he suggests holding the entire world to ransom for 1 million dollars, and is confused by his henchmen being underwhelmed by what he thinks is a big number.
Of course he'd been frozen for 30 years of inflation and progress, not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is.
Of course he'd been frozen for 30 years of inflation and progress, not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is.
>not sure what the authors of this report's excuse is
Not being good at his job.
Not being good at his job.
I assume this similar to the west when we give our own industry subsdies ? Why are we not using "Dominate" in the headlines when we do it?
Or am i missing something?
Or am i missing something?
>Why are we not using "Dominate" in the headlines when we do it?
Because for a western car manufacturer 3 Billion is barely enough to get them to care to do something. Surely it isn't enough to make them dominate anything.
Because for a western car manufacturer 3 Billion is barely enough to get them to care to do something. Surely it isn't enough to make them dominate anything.
That seems cheap. The German state pissed away €76B in mostly non-productive Covid aid, made subsidy fraud so mindbogglingly easy, it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out. Unbelievable levels of incompetence and/or corruption. It does not matter what other countries do, when our government shoots our own country with a bazooka. Western Europe is crumbling, besieged from the outside, corroded from the inside. Darkness beckons. Source (German): https://archive.is/Ai8u1
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>That seems cheap.
That is insanely cheap when you see how much money the German automakers have pissed away. For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money.
Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for.
By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here.
>it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out.
Ah yeah, I remember watching a report on ZDF while the authorities were repo-ing someone's Bentley, how during Covid the German Gov was reimbursing test centers money for Covid tests without requesting any solid proof that the tests were actually made.
So an entire industry sprung up where everyone and their mom were opening sham covid test centers but only on paper, and so enterprising individuals were making hundreds of thousands of Euros from submitting fake reimbursement claims to the government which the government paid outright without doing any checks.
In general the German government is totally shit at being eficient and fiscally responsible with it's citizens' money. They spend like drunken sailors on useless crap during the good times, and when the bad times come it's "sorry bruh we're broke, time for public service cutbacks".
That is insanely cheap when you see how much money the German automakers have pissed away. For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money.
Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for.
By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here.
>it resulted in billions of illegitimate aid paid out.
Ah yeah, I remember watching a report on ZDF while the authorities were repo-ing someone's Bentley, how during Covid the German Gov was reimbursing test centers money for Covid tests without requesting any solid proof that the tests were actually made.
So an entire industry sprung up where everyone and their mom were opening sham covid test centers but only on paper, and so enterprising individuals were making hundreds of thousands of Euros from submitting fake reimbursement claims to the government which the government paid outright without doing any checks.
In general the German government is totally shit at being eficient and fiscally responsible with it's citizens' money. They spend like drunken sailors on useless crap during the good times, and when the bad times come it's "sorry bruh we're broke, time for public service cutbacks".
>For example, Daimler's Smart car brand alone posted over 4 billion Euros in losses. They could have gone to space with that money.
Those are private losses, meaning they are subsidized by Mercedes themselves. Also Smart is as much a German Brand as it is a Chinese brand. Geely lost exactly the same money Mercedes did.
Additionally you are not counting the losses correctly, even if smart looses money, selling cheap low emissions often electric city cars is hugely beneficial to Mercedes, due to European car regulations.
>Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for.
No. They are selling cars, like any healthy industry would do. I don't get what you think automobile companies could accomplish, besides producing cars for people to use and employing people to make them. The Chinese are doing exactly the same and get the same benefits.
>By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here.
They got a productive car industry. Like it exists in France or Germany.
Those are private losses, meaning they are subsidized by Mercedes themselves. Also Smart is as much a German Brand as it is a Chinese brand. Geely lost exactly the same money Mercedes did.
Additionally you are not counting the losses correctly, even if smart looses money, selling cheap low emissions often electric city cars is hugely beneficial to Mercedes, due to European car regulations.
>Not just in Germany either, but France and Italy, they're all pushing crazy money in the local auto industry for the sake of maintaining local jobs, with little else to show for.
No. They are selling cars, like any healthy industry would do. I don't get what you think automobile companies could accomplish, besides producing cars for people to use and employing people to make them. The Chinese are doing exactly the same and get the same benefits.
>By comparison, the Chinese taxpayer got a really good deal here.
They got a productive car industry. Like it exists in France or Germany.
>even if smart looses money, selling cheap
1. Smart are anything BUT cheap hence the low sales and the losses.
2. The losses are quoted were before the Geely partnership.
>They got a productive car industry. Like it exists in France or Germany.
The question is which is more productive, the Chinese one, or the German/EU one.
1. Smart are anything BUT cheap hence the low sales and the losses.
2. The losses are quoted were before the Geely partnership.
>They got a productive car industry. Like it exists in France or Germany.
The question is which is more productive, the Chinese one, or the German/EU one.
>1. Smart are anything BUT cheap hence the low sales and the losses.
The price is irrelevant to the benefits they provide in the eyes of EU regulations. You can not look at the 4 Billion in losses while ignoring European laws. Pure luxury car makers are near impossible to operate. Which is why Aston Martin bought a cheap Toyota design to make into a small city car.
>2. The losses are quoted were before the Geely partnership.
And? Mercedes lost exactly the same amount of money the Chinese did. In no way is this more of a loss for China than it is for Germany.
>The question is which is more productive, the Chinese one, or the German/EU one.
The Chinese has massive advantage when it comes to the cost of materials, energy and labor which is why near identical cars there are insanely cheap. If you consider as an output of the car industry also the social benefits, then obviously German car companies are a great place to work, especially compared with conditions in China.
The price is irrelevant to the benefits they provide in the eyes of EU regulations. You can not look at the 4 Billion in losses while ignoring European laws. Pure luxury car makers are near impossible to operate. Which is why Aston Martin bought a cheap Toyota design to make into a small city car.
>2. The losses are quoted were before the Geely partnership.
And? Mercedes lost exactly the same amount of money the Chinese did. In no way is this more of a loss for China than it is for Germany.
>The question is which is more productive, the Chinese one, or the German/EU one.
The Chinese has massive advantage when it comes to the cost of materials, energy and labor which is why near identical cars there are insanely cheap. If you consider as an output of the car industry also the social benefits, then obviously German car companies are a great place to work, especially compared with conditions in China.
>You can not look at the 4 Billion in losses while ignoring European laws.
What does the loss and being terrible at selling cars have to do with EU laws? EU laws didn't make them be shit.
>And? Mercedes lost exactly the same amount of money the Chinese did. In no way is this more of a loss for China than it is for Germany.
How would the Chinese have lot money if Daimler lost that money before they entered the partnership with Geely?
>f you consider as an output of the car industry also the social benefits
The social benefit of making Diesel cars that reduce years of our lifespan thanks to air pollution, but at least they're a great place to work? With that logic the war in Ucraine is also a social benefits since it creates places to work.
What does the loss and being terrible at selling cars have to do with EU laws? EU laws didn't make them be shit.
>And? Mercedes lost exactly the same amount of money the Chinese did. In no way is this more of a loss for China than it is for Germany.
How would the Chinese have lot money if Daimler lost that money before they entered the partnership with Geely?
>f you consider as an output of the car industry also the social benefits
The social benefit of making Diesel cars that reduce years of our lifespan thanks to air pollution, but at least they're a great place to work? With that logic the war in Ucraine is also a social benefits since it creates places to work.
>What does the loss and being terrible at selling cars have to do with EU laws? EU laws didn't make them be shit.
Do you just not understand how EU car regulations work? Otherwise I think you would understand why the 4 Billion loss is something Mercedes is happy to accept. Because it simply isn't a 4 Billion dollar loss.
>How would the Chinese have lot money if Daimler lost that money before they entered the partnership with Geely?
It's been 5 years since the partnership. The company isn't even called Daimler anymore and if they aren't loosing money now...
>but at least they're a great place to work?
Yes. Also people can go wherever they want whenever they want, which is another great benefit. Enormous benefits all together, which is why China is so keen on building cars.
Do you just not understand how EU car regulations work? Otherwise I think you would understand why the 4 Billion loss is something Mercedes is happy to accept. Because it simply isn't a 4 Billion dollar loss.
>How would the Chinese have lot money if Daimler lost that money before they entered the partnership with Geely?
It's been 5 years since the partnership. The company isn't even called Daimler anymore and if they aren't loosing money now...
>but at least they're a great place to work?
Yes. Also people can go wherever they want whenever they want, which is another great benefit. Enormous benefits all together, which is why China is so keen on building cars.
Ironically that aid is an anti-subsidy on the actually quite productive automobile industry in Germany, which directly and indirectly contributes massively to the taxes, which were then given away in said aid you described.
This seems really low. If we could throw 3.4b at a new car company and get the awesome suspension tech and price points of the BYD cars then that’d be huge. If every country could do this domestically, even better!
What suspension tech does BYD have that others do not?
Reality suspension in advertising - no idea sounds funny thou
Just 3.4 billion euros? American VCs have collectively spent much more on many failed EV startups..
That seems insignificant compared to the subsidies doled out by the American govt.
An absolute pittance compared to what Elon Musk is able to extract from US taxpayers to fuel his own personal wealth.
The subsidies discussed in this report are mostly "purchase subsidies," which the Chinese government pays to all domestic EV manufacturers. The more cars a company sells, the more "purchase subsidies" it receives. BYD received 1.6 billion Euros in 2022, because it sold the most EVs. The second largest recipient was Tesla, which received 0.4 billion Euros from the Chinese government in purchase subsidies. If Tesla had sold more EVs in China, it would have received more subsidies.
This particular "purchase subsidy" program has ended, by the way. There are still other types of subsidies, such as waivers on license-plate fees (which can be massive in large Chinese cities) for EVs.
Just as a general comment, I find it slightly amusing that the narrative has shifted from "China doesn't care about the environment" to "China is heavily subsidizing renewable energy and EVs, and here's why that's a bad thing."