Creatine found to improve cognitive performance during sleep deprivation(medicalxpress.com)
medicalxpress.com
Creatine found to improve cognitive performance during sleep deprivation
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2024-04-creatine-cognitive-deprivation.html
58 comments
Why does medical get an exception for poor treatment
It shouldn't in general, but there are restricted cases where it's literally life and death and difficult/impossible to plan around.
I don't see how a work around for an intentional shortage can be acceptable if you are saying the AMA kills people and I think that you are.
> for an intentional shortage
I would not say it's only acceptable for unintended shortages, or maybe very brief and rare shortages since those tend to be the kind you can't reasonably plan around.
As for saying the AMA kills people, not sure I'd go that far without doing more research. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the effect of some of their policies is more deaths than there otherwise would be.
I would not say it's only acceptable for unintended shortages, or maybe very brief and rare shortages since those tend to be the kind you can't reasonably plan around.
As for saying the AMA kills people, not sure I'd go that far without doing more research. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the effect of some of their policies is more deaths than there otherwise would be.
Ugh, I meant to say it's only acceptaple for unintended shortages. An extra "not" snuck in there.
It's impossible for doctors and nurses to pass on everything they know about a patient during shift changes, which can be seen in the form of spikes in deaths and other bad outcomes right after care is handed over to a new team. Hence why they tend to do longer shifts.
That effect is eventually balanced out by exhaustion, sleep deprivation, etc taking the same toll they do on everyone. Theoretically If you could reduce the impact of sleep deprivation, we could push shift lengths further, reduce the amount of turnover in carers a patient sees even more, and receive even further benefits in health outcomes.
That effect is eventually balanced out by exhaustion, sleep deprivation, etc taking the same toll they do on everyone. Theoretically If you could reduce the impact of sleep deprivation, we could push shift lengths further, reduce the amount of turnover in carers a patient sees even more, and receive even further benefits in health outcomes.
I would frame this as using creatine as a welcome mitigation for existing burnout from long shifts.
Not enabling the same burnout for even longer shifts.
Burnout and just simple short term fatigue both also create patient risk.
We have drugs that would allow very long completely alert shifts, with few side effects for single use. But there is no way to do that regularly in a mentally (or physically) healthy sustainable way.
I can see those being used by a battlefield medic, or in a disaster zone, for one off critical situations.
Not enabling the same burnout for even longer shifts.
Burnout and just simple short term fatigue both also create patient risk.
We have drugs that would allow very long completely alert shifts, with few side effects for single use. But there is no way to do that regularly in a mentally (or physically) healthy sustainable way.
I can see those being used by a battlefield medic, or in a disaster zone, for one off critical situations.
I think the claim in your opening sentence is unproven.
Can we try to improve the handoff problem before trying to make sleep deprived doctors and nurses able to suffer for even longer?
Can we try to improve the handoff problem before trying to make sleep deprived doctors and nurses able to suffer for even longer?
What I just read sounded like “the solution to doctor burnout is even more doctor burnout” so that couldn’t possibly be what you really meant.
There was another small study looking at similar dosages of creatine for traumatic brain injury. Time spent in ICU was halved.
Other consumables from meat with notable effects here are carnosine and taurine. Carnosine in particular helps with janitorial processes that happen during sleep.
I'd just add, these three can be obtained from veg-friendly supplements too.
Yes, AFAIK all three are reasonable simple molecules with synthetic formulations.
I think Choline belongs in that list also.
The difficulty of getting these on a vegan diet is the reason I started consuming bivalves
The difficulty of getting these on a vegan diet is the reason I started consuming bivalves
After switching to a vegan diet and after some experimentation with other variants, I have eventually settled on adding to the food small amounts of creatine monohydrate, taurine and choline bitartrate in pure powder form, exactly like you would add table salt.
For me it has worked fine.
However, among the nutritional supplements for a vegan diet I make a temporary exception for cod liver oil (or other fish oil). Even if there is an adequate vegan substitute (Schizochytrium oil, which is produced by a cultivated fungus-like organism, despite being marketed as "algae" oil), for now it is still too expensive. Its price has been slowly decreasing, so I expect that in a few years its price will become no greater than double in comparison with fish oil, when I would consider switching to it as acceptable.
For me it has worked fine.
However, among the nutritional supplements for a vegan diet I make a temporary exception for cod liver oil (or other fish oil). Even if there is an adequate vegan substitute (Schizochytrium oil, which is produced by a cultivated fungus-like organism, despite being marketed as "algae" oil), for now it is still too expensive. Its price has been slowly decreasing, so I expect that in a few years its price will become no greater than double in comparison with fish oil, when I would consider switching to it as acceptable.
I'm assuming the cod liver oil is for the Omega content?
I'm fortunate to have access to some decent Omega supplements, but bivalves are also excellent sources of Omegas (in addition to Taurine, Choline, and Creatine). If your vegan diet is motivated by vegan or environmental ethics, I'm curious why you've landed on fish oil rather than bivalves (since fish have brains and I believe oyster farming specifically is supposed to also have a positive impact on the habitats it's performed in)?
I'm fortunate to have access to some decent Omega supplements, but bivalves are also excellent sources of Omegas (in addition to Taurine, Choline, and Creatine). If your vegan diet is motivated by vegan or environmental ethics, I'm curious why you've landed on fish oil rather than bivalves (since fish have brains and I believe oyster farming specifically is supposed to also have a positive impact on the habitats it's performed in)?
At least where I live, in Europe, fish oil is many times less expensive than bivalves, which are priced like luxury food.
Moreover, fish oil is much more convenient, because after I buy a liter, that is enough for more than 3 months, so I have to take care about this only very infrequently.
Bivalves can be stored only frozen and even in that case they occupy a huge volume in comparison with the equivalent amount of fish oil. They would also require additional time each day for preparation and cooking (even if that takes only a few minutes when done in a microwave oven). With cod liver oil or other fish oil, I just add a minute amount of it to the vegetable oil that I add to food anyway, so the extra time for it is just taking the bottle from the refrigerator and putting it back, which adds perhaps ten seconds to the cooking time.
When well prepared, bivalves are very tasty and healthy but they are not an optimal solution for ensuring an adequate daily intake of essential fatty acids, except perhaps in places on marine coasts, close to some farming site, where there might be possible to have continuous access to a guaranteed supply of cheap fresh bivalves.
I would rather not use fish oil, so as I have said, I am waiting for the production process for Schizochytrium oil to become more efficient, so that the premium price over fish oil will decrease enough. When I have tried for the first time Schizochytrium oil, a few years ago, it was at least eight times more expensive than fish oil. The last time when I have checked, it could be found (when searching enough) for as little as three times the price of fish oil (per its DHA+EPA content), so there is hope for a further price reduction.
Moreover, fish oil is much more convenient, because after I buy a liter, that is enough for more than 3 months, so I have to take care about this only very infrequently.
Bivalves can be stored only frozen and even in that case they occupy a huge volume in comparison with the equivalent amount of fish oil. They would also require additional time each day for preparation and cooking (even if that takes only a few minutes when done in a microwave oven). With cod liver oil or other fish oil, I just add a minute amount of it to the vegetable oil that I add to food anyway, so the extra time for it is just taking the bottle from the refrigerator and putting it back, which adds perhaps ten seconds to the cooking time.
When well prepared, bivalves are very tasty and healthy but they are not an optimal solution for ensuring an adequate daily intake of essential fatty acids, except perhaps in places on marine coasts, close to some farming site, where there might be possible to have continuous access to a guaranteed supply of cheap fresh bivalves.
I would rather not use fish oil, so as I have said, I am waiting for the production process for Schizochytrium oil to become more efficient, so that the premium price over fish oil will decrease enough. When I have tried for the first time Schizochytrium oil, a few years ago, it was at least eight times more expensive than fish oil. The last time when I have checked, it could be found (when searching enough) for as little as three times the price of fish oil (per its DHA+EPA content), so there is hope for a further price reduction.
Good point, I've only started consuming bivalves recently (having never purchased them in my life before) and live on a marine coastal city where bivalves naturally wash up on shore in addition to being farmed, so I didn't consider that the prices I see would be significantly different than a non-coastal place, especially since I also often purchase mussels, clams, and oysters which are harvested in other countries and shipped here.
For me, I may spend the same amount on bivalves as I would on an equivalent (by protein content) amount of mock meat products or veggie burgers. The bivalves are no doubt much healthier, but have fewer calories which is either a good or bad thing depending on what you're trying to optimize for.
For me, I may spend the same amount on bivalves as I would on an equivalent (by protein content) amount of mock meat products or veggie burgers. The bivalves are no doubt much healthier, but have fewer calories which is either a good or bad thing depending on what you're trying to optimize for.
I’ve been taking 5mg daily of Creatine for about 6 months now. It gives me a surprising amount of energy that is still very noticeable if I miss a day, even with a full 8 hours of sleep.
A big surprise I got early on was that my previous coffee habit of 5+ cups per day just kind of disappeared. No longer needed to keep going, I think.
A big surprise I got early on was that my previous coffee habit of 5+ cups per day just kind of disappeared. No longer needed to keep going, I think.
5 mg? We get about 1 gram of creatine through a varied diet and the body synthesize the rest. I would guess it to be purely placebo for you? All lifter recommend 3-5 g of supplementation daily.
5mg? That seems like a very small dose... the linked study says they administered 0.35g per kg - for me that'd be about 24g, which seems like a lot, though I guess people who are lifting weights might do that much daily for a week or two and then switch down to 5g/day.
They have to mean 5g, as does the guy who responded to you who seems to have made the same mistake. The recommended dose on most creatine containers is around 5 grams. 5mg is so little that it would be impossible to measure without a mg scale.
The last sentence there is an impressively neat tautology. I love it
I always wondered why I couldn’t measure mg with my gram scale! I just kept asking myself where are the sig figs?
To your snark, I was meaning to convey that a standard kitchen scale wouldn't be accurate enough to measure 5mg, necessitating what is typically referred to as a precision or mg scale.
https://awscales.com/gemini-20-precision-milligram-scale/
https://awscales.com/gemini-20-precision-milligram-scale/
Is it really a tautology though?
The recommended dose is 5g per day. You can front-load creatine if you are deficient, but taking over 5g daily won’t do much.
Edit: it’s 5g, not mg.
Edit: it’s 5g, not mg.
Everything I've ever come across suggests 3-5g per day, with some folks doing a 20-25g loading protocol to saturate your muscles in the first week.
Mitchell Hooper, world strongman champion, takes 10g a day..but he's built different :-)
Too many people in this thread are conflating taking creatine for cognitive effects with taking it for weight lifting and strength performance.
If you are taking weight lifting doses for cognitive effects, you are effectively 'doing it wrong' and will notice a significant weight gain from the extra water retention.
If you are taking weight lifting doses for cognitive effects, you are effectively 'doing it wrong' and will notice a significant weight gain from the extra water retention.
And possibly saturate your toilet too!
Recommended dose by whom?
It's most popular in sports training and adjacent aesthetics, and the norm among that community is in grams. While most products are available as powders that you could perhaps measure out in milligrams, their reference dosage for advertising is usually 5g.
It's most popular in sports training and adjacent aesthetics, and the norm among that community is in grams. While most products are available as powders that you could perhaps measure out in milligrams, their reference dosage for advertising is usually 5g.
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I did mean 5g, not 5mg. Thanks to everyone who pointed out the error.
Is it just creatine? I've had some good results - improved mental clarity, just to discover it has taurine added.
It is pure Creatine. This is definitely an above average result from the supplement, from what I understand. Probably from some sort of deficiency in the long chain of reactions that make it. My bet is that the sleep deficiency measured in this study is also impacting when of the reactions too. I wish it was easier to measure these things to actually know for sure.
Be careful with it, as too much Creatine can put extra stress on your kidneys.
Taking creatine cured my lightheadedness that occurs when standing up after squatting for a few minutes, which happens a lot at my job (plumbing). It also reduced other negative effects of sleep deprivation, such as impaired cognition, but to a lesser degree.
Same though I'm sadly not qualified for plumbing and had spent a lot of money for plumbing issues. Is that how you got into the business ? Your Profile states that you are "just another programmer". This is BTW what I love about HN, intelligent people from all walks of life, South American Neuroscientists, Pakistani Particle Physicists, Australian Professors of European Philosophy, Chinese Poets, NY Musicians designing their own Guitar pedals, Radical GNU/OS Evangelists from Kazakhstan commingling with Italian Plumbers and Nevada Hippies that worship the Sun Gods by running their website on the power that the heavens giveth.
My dad is a plumber, and I learned a bit while working with him. I was in software development for about 8 years, intermittently (casual games and microcontrollers in C++, Java/Kotlin for Android), and at the last job (the Android one) I burnt out so bad I got clinical depression which took years to manage. Plumbing to me is a fallback that is going on for too long. Pays the bills and meds until I get fit for demanding mental work. By the way, my lower back is demanding some mental work, for a change, after 3 weeks of carving out grooves for pipes in walls and floors with a big perforator
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I don't know if you know this yet, but what greatly helps me when I've stood up too fast and am on the verge of 'seeing stars' is tensing up my abdominal muscles, which essentially helps push back the blood towards the brain.
I figured, if it's good enough for fighter pilots pulling 8g maneuvers, it should be good enough for me accidentally getting out of bed too quickly. And turns out it works!
I figured, if it's good enough for fighter pilots pulling 8g maneuvers, it should be good enough for me accidentally getting out of bed too quickly. And turns out it works!
How much do you take? How often?
1.5g-3g a day is fine. Powder form comes with little dosing spoon.. just do a little reading its very accessible.
5g once a day, standard gym goer protocol.
Orthostatic hypotension
Other studies already proved those effects with creatine with a normal dose schedule, what they were testing is if a single high dose would have a beneficial effect too, which it did.
A normal schedule is 3-5g per day with an optional loading phase of 10-20g per day during 7 days.
In the study they used a single dose of 0.35g/kg which means 20-40g per dose. How do they not get diarrhea? The loading phase is usually split into several doses to avoid diarrhea and I can personally attest to that being a good idea.
A normal schedule is 3-5g per day with an optional loading phase of 10-20g per day during 7 days.
In the study they used a single dose of 0.35g/kg which means 20-40g per dose. How do they not get diarrhea? The loading phase is usually split into several doses to avoid diarrhea and I can personally attest to that being a good idea.
I love creatine for the amplified neural oscillations produced by the greater efficiencies in the ATP metabolism. I experience more "deep work", or the ability for me to focus for longer periods/stretches of time.
So instead of that shallow caffeine buzz, and relying on a stress hormone for extra energy, why haven't I thought of this before..
I was hyped on it until I read there was some controversy about it making your hair fall out. Nope.
There's been no studies that verify that claim as far as I know.
Found this review which backs up what you said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7871530/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7871530/
It also disproves several other myths surrounding creatine, like kidney damage.
Although, I could see this being beneficial in fields where labour is scarce (e.g.: the medical field), I fear it could lend towards a "sleep deprivation is okay, just take creatine" rationale in other fields.