Ex-Googler designed a heat pump you'll want in your home(fastcompany.com)
fastcompany.com
Ex-Googler designed a heat pump you'll want in your home
https://www.fastcompany.com/91123783/this-ex-googler-designed-a-heat-pump-youll-actually-want-in-your-home
67 comments
I've been eyeing Mr Cool's DIY flush mount units.
https://mrcool.com/diy-ceiling-cassette/
I have a 100+ y/o farm house, so retrofitting can require some creativity. These recessed units should work, but I'm also toying with the idea of integrating mini-splits into built-in cabinets/dressers. I've been obsessed with greeting a nice large format wood CNC and I like the idea of hiding the return unit behind cosmetic panels.
https://mrcool.com/diy-ceiling-cassette/
I have a 100+ y/o farm house, so retrofitting can require some creativity. These recessed units should work, but I'm also toying with the idea of integrating mini-splits into built-in cabinets/dressers. I've been obsessed with greeting a nice large format wood CNC and I like the idea of hiding the return unit behind cosmetic panels.
I put a mr cool in my garage, no regrets at all.
I have also heard good things about mr cool.
I have trouble gauging them because they have flooded the DIY youtube crowd with free review units. There is no direct quid-pro-quo that I know of, but it's rare to see a DIY person bash something, and I worry it's out of a fear of biting the hand that gives them free stuff.
I bought mine, and this was before they were giving them to YouTubers. I've definitely seen those videos since then.
90 yr old house here. Steam heat, crappy vinal windows from the past 20 years, vermiculate insulation (asbestos risk??).
I like the idea of recessed units within the central wall with condensers in the attack. I need to vent the heat somewhere. Maybe if I get rid of all the gas (water, furnace), I can vent out the chimney.
I like the idea of recessed units within the central wall with condensers in the attack. I need to vent the heat somewhere. Maybe if I get rid of all the gas (water, furnace), I can vent out the chimney.
We got ours installed into the attic space with ducts. I guess this is easier with a single level house that didn't have any existing thing in place. It's a Daikin system. I think the ceiling ducts are pretty ugly but way nicer than a unit on the wall.
> Fujitsu 4-zone split system
What model did you buy? How complicated was the install? How did you buy it online - I understood Fujitsu to sell through distributors / installers? Where are you located?
What model did you buy? How complicated was the install? How did you buy it online - I understood Fujitsu to sell through distributors / installers? Where are you located?
AOU45RLXFZ outdoor unit, 2 7K ceiling cassettes, 1 9K cassette, and an 18K air handler. Installation was pretty easy so long as you are a mechanically inclined person, and are willing to invest around ~$500 in the tools to do the job right. Most of the labor is just basic carpentry and electrical.
The most complicated thing is preparing and flaring the copper tube ends, then pressure testing overnight. R410a is a high pressure refrigerant, the manual has very specific dimensional requirements for the flare to get a good seal. You need to cut the tube end well, then file it it perfectly square and deburr, and use a special orbital flaring tool that costs around $100 to get a flare that meets the required dimensions.
For pressure testing, the manual said to use Nitrogen at the system operating pressure of around ~450 PSI. So you will need to own/beg/borrow/steal a high pressure gas bottle and a regulator. I was too lazy to drive to the airport and borrow my friend's N2 bottle so I used Argon from my TIG welder, it it worked out fine. But yeah, most people do not have a source of 500 PSI inert gas just sitting around. You will also need a vacuum pump and gauge to evacuate the lines, but the compressor comes pre-charged with refrigerant so after evacuating, you just open the valves and start running it, no charging manifold or refrigerant fill needed.
I'm in the Pacific Northwest USA, I purchased from eComfort.com , no financial affiliation. One reason I chose Fujitsu is that all the installation and service data was easily available, but Fujitsu is a REAL pain about selling parts/aftermarket support unless you are licensed distributor. I found a guy through Reddit that I have used to order parts (I broke a thermistor wire by being ham-handed)
The most complicated thing is preparing and flaring the copper tube ends, then pressure testing overnight. R410a is a high pressure refrigerant, the manual has very specific dimensional requirements for the flare to get a good seal. You need to cut the tube end well, then file it it perfectly square and deburr, and use a special orbital flaring tool that costs around $100 to get a flare that meets the required dimensions.
For pressure testing, the manual said to use Nitrogen at the system operating pressure of around ~450 PSI. So you will need to own/beg/borrow/steal a high pressure gas bottle and a regulator. I was too lazy to drive to the airport and borrow my friend's N2 bottle so I used Argon from my TIG welder, it it worked out fine. But yeah, most people do not have a source of 500 PSI inert gas just sitting around. You will also need a vacuum pump and gauge to evacuate the lines, but the compressor comes pre-charged with refrigerant so after evacuating, you just open the valves and start running it, no charging manifold or refrigerant fill needed.
I'm in the Pacific Northwest USA, I purchased from eComfort.com , no financial affiliation. One reason I chose Fujitsu is that all the installation and service data was easily available, but Fujitsu is a REAL pain about selling parts/aftermarket support unless you are licensed distributor. I found a guy through Reddit that I have used to order parts (I broke a thermistor wire by being ham-handed)
I would love to see a YouTube walkthrough of your setup!
Sorry, I have toomuchtodo buildingjets to start a Youtube channel, lol!
But there are probably a ton of videos out there from people with better video production skills and a more pleasant presentation style than mine. I really taught myself HVAC installation from YT videos and reading the equipment manuals a lot.
But there are probably a ton of videos out there from people with better video production skills and a more pleasant presentation style than mine. I really taught myself HVAC installation from YT videos and reading the equipment manuals a lot.
What about jet building videos! :)
Saw this recently. If I had to guess, this is a (heavily marked up) rebadging of a Midea or Gree [1] unit with some software around it.
Nothing wrong with Midea or Gree, though they tend to be considered to be second-tier to Mitsubishi and Fujitsu, but the markup seems quite a bit for a marginally (debatable) better appearance.
[1]: When you see a mini-split, if it's not Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, or Daikin, it's likely made by Midea or Gree.
Nothing wrong with Midea or Gree, though they tend to be considered to be second-tier to Mitsubishi and Fujitsu, but the markup seems quite a bit for a marginally (debatable) better appearance.
[1]: When you see a mini-split, if it's not Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, or Daikin, it's likely made by Midea or Gree.
Another fancy-looking VC-funded aircon: https://www.electricair.io/
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for Tesla to make residential heat pumps/air conditioners as per Master Plan 3.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for Tesla to make residential heat pumps/air conditioners as per Master Plan 3.
Wow, I can’t wait to learn more about this heat pump—it must be the most amazing heat pump ever, since it was designed by an ex-Googler!
It’ll probably get cancelled though
Doesn’t appear that they have injected a sufficient quantity of the word “Google” into this article. I can’t see that it has any bearing on the topic.
Yeah. "Ex Googler" used to mean "probably a really smart person".
Now as I was reading through that article I kept thinking things like "How are they gonna rug pull buyers?" "What's gonna happen when they hold someone's home heating to ransom because they aren't paying some backend service subscription?" "Who're they planning upon selling room occupancy and energy use data to?" "How much legitimately purchased and expensively installed hardware is gonna end up bricked when this "20% project" get's graveyarded because the person driving it got distracted by some new shiny project?"
Now as I was reading through that article I kept thinking things like "How are they gonna rug pull buyers?" "What's gonna happen when they hold someone's home heating to ransom because they aren't paying some backend service subscription?" "Who're they planning upon selling room occupancy and energy use data to?" "How much legitimately purchased and expensively installed hardware is gonna end up bricked when this "20% project" get's graveyarded because the person driving it got distracted by some new shiny project?"
The individuals at google are largely not responsible for various business transgressions you might have. There are plenty of people trying to do their best in the environment they were in. Ex-Googlers aren't inherently people who want to be shady, there is no reason to assume this business would be any shadier than any other Silicon Valley business.
The comment was about the caché of assosciation with Google.
Regardless of the reality of the character of any individual Google employee or ex employee, the point is valid that Google's name comes with a different, and worse, impression today than yesterday.
Regardless of the reality of the character of any individual Google employee or ex employee, the point is valid that Google's name comes with a different, and worse, impression today than yesterday.
> any shadier than any other Silicon Valley business.
That certainly doesn't inspire confidence.
That certainly doesn't inspire confidence.
Man, this is such horseshit. You work for Google, you do so voluntarily and you’re implicitly signing on to their way of business. You’re culpable. You don’t get to take the big salary paid for by the transgressions of the top guys and still have clean hands, and it is total bullshit to be an apologist for anyone that signs up for it.
See: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Erg09oOpmo
See: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Erg09oOpmo
I just want one that can be cleaned inside.
Several years ago I had 3 zones of a 4 zone mini split installed, and then after they filled up with mold and dust in one year (thanks, "eco" mode) I discovered it's practically impossible to clean the blower inside.
I did it anyway, by taking them all apart while still attatched to the lines, but I had to flex the lines as the units had to come off the hangers away from the wall to get the blower housing apart. This was obviously not something you do very many times before you spring a leak and I never did it again.
It was also super ungainly and messy and required moving everything out from underneath each unit, which was super inconvenient since this incuded book shelves and dressers and wall mounted shelves etc.
I also ended up getting cleaner on the bearings. One time, on year-old sealed bearings probably didn't hurt anything, but it's not exactly good to get bearings wet, especially regularly like if cleaning were actually a regular maintenance operation.
The units were clearly never meant to come apart, and I can't understand, why not??? The plastic screen does not actually keep the unit clean. It helps but it's just a screen not magic.
Several years ago I had 3 zones of a 4 zone mini split installed, and then after they filled up with mold and dust in one year (thanks, "eco" mode) I discovered it's practically impossible to clean the blower inside.
I did it anyway, by taking them all apart while still attatched to the lines, but I had to flex the lines as the units had to come off the hangers away from the wall to get the blower housing apart. This was obviously not something you do very many times before you spring a leak and I never did it again.
It was also super ungainly and messy and required moving everything out from underneath each unit, which was super inconvenient since this incuded book shelves and dressers and wall mounted shelves etc.
I also ended up getting cleaner on the bearings. One time, on year-old sealed bearings probably didn't hurt anything, but it's not exactly good to get bearings wet, especially regularly like if cleaning were actually a regular maintenance operation.
The units were clearly never meant to come apart, and I can't understand, why not??? The plastic screen does not actually keep the unit clean. It helps but it's just a screen not magic.
Two articles on Quilt hitting the front page? Compare the specs on these units to brands that make mini-splits you want - Quilt is either hiding performance numbers intentionally or because they think their target market doesn't care.
But, nobody who lives in colder climates should buy these given the lack of technical specs Quilt provides. Look at my comment the other day in another thread comparing the Quilt to a GE unit. The Quilt is subpar - especially on the heating side.
But, nobody who lives in colder climates should buy these given the lack of technical specs Quilt provides. Look at my comment the other day in another thread comparing the Quilt to a GE unit. The Quilt is subpar - especially on the heating side.
Previous discussion on the Quilt heat pump: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40380594
Great! Another "innovative" heat pump that will be available somewhere around 2035, if it ever reaches the market...
It's a sleeker, stylier, VC oriented heat pump!
As an ex-goggler, I'm sure Paul will make millions in the first round and have a great story to tell on the golf course...
The only substantial thing I could find was that the company has it's own installers and fixed, disclosed pricing. Both of these are a plus, unlike the double sided sticky tape veneer add-ons...
It's a sleeker, stylier, VC oriented heat pump!
As an ex-goggler, I'm sure Paul will make millions in the first round and have a great story to tell on the golf course...
The only substantial thing I could find was that the company has it's own installers and fixed, disclosed pricing. Both of these are a plus, unlike the double sided sticky tape veneer add-ons...
okr(2)
Interesting. I need a 15k-18k BTU mini split (20+ SEER) right now to climate-control an exterior building, but they're far cheaper at $1-2k plus another $1.5k for installation. Considering adding solar too to offset ongoing electrical costs.
Edit: Also considering a 42 SEER Carrier model that will be more expensive initially but cheaper to run.
Edit: Also considering a 42 SEER Carrier model that will be more expensive initially but cheaper to run.
Whether this succeeds or not it's nice when people put their time into societally beneficial enterprises rather than ad companies.
The greatest minds of our generation (if such things exist) have probably been wasted on serving ads and high frequency trading.
The greatest minds of our generation (if such things exist) have probably been wasted on serving ads and high frequency trading.
There are sleek units that don't have the external part for apartments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J-YyrU_D_I Cheaper too I think.
The article doesn't mention subscriptions, which is pretty interesting. Will this be a standalone hardware product?
At over 6K per room it’s about 2-3k more than split acs that I had professionally installed. Just an observation.
[deleted]
I’m sorry, but a major home improvement investment of $6,500 per room relying on a small VC-backed startup is a recipe for disaster, given its cloud-connected nature. If it shipped with Matter/HomeKit/etc support out of the box, I might feel more confident knowing I can still configure it long after the company goes belly up, or Google buys in and inevitably kills the product 10 years from now.
> If it shipped with Matter/HomeKit/etc support out of the box
Tech specs mentions Matter on their website.
Tech specs mentions Matter on their website.
It's too expensive anyways.
As as an Australian the most interesting thing here is how unfamiliar the US market is with split systems. Here they are absolutely standard, except for older homes that use gas ducted heating, and fancy new homes that use underfloor hydronic heating.
We just had some installed. Sure would be nice if we had pretty options like Quilt but...no.
The integrated light seems very sensible.
We just had some installed. Sure would be nice if we had pretty options like Quilt but...no.
The integrated light seems very sensible.
Split systems are extremely standard in Asian countries, even in high rise buildings where each family gets their own mini split. Modern mini splits are just about as efficient as central AC, not to mention the energy savings from only having to cool individual rooms where the humans are, instead of the whole living area.
Also, both Japanese brands like Daikin and Chinese brands like Mijia (Xiaomi) and Colmo (Midea) have pretty-looking air conditioners. [1] [2]
[1] https://www.acdirect.com/daikin-12000-btu-mini-split-wall-mo...
[2] https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804135466220.html?gateway...
Also, both Japanese brands like Daikin and Chinese brands like Mijia (Xiaomi) and Colmo (Midea) have pretty-looking air conditioners. [1] [2]
[1] https://www.acdirect.com/daikin-12000-btu-mini-split-wall-mo...
[2] https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804135466220.html?gateway...
> is how unfamiliar the US market is with split systems
This was completely true 10 years ago. These days though mini split is the standard in the US for remodeling. If you go to a slightly wealthier part of an urban city almost every house has them.
Used to be you would put in high-velocity central during a remodel (instead of ducts, it uses smaller pipes, with the air moving relatively fast since the pipe is much smaller). Total it's exclusively mini split.
New construction hasn't fully switched over yet though. Partly because mini splits can't provide enough heating for a northern climate, and since you need a fire someplace, you use that same ducting for the A/C.
This was completely true 10 years ago. These days though mini split is the standard in the US for remodeling. If you go to a slightly wealthier part of an urban city almost every house has them.
Used to be you would put in high-velocity central during a remodel (instead of ducts, it uses smaller pipes, with the air moving relatively fast since the pipe is much smaller). Total it's exclusively mini split.
New construction hasn't fully switched over yet though. Partly because mini splits can't provide enough heating for a northern climate, and since you need a fire someplace, you use that same ducting for the A/C.
Ah interesting. I heard a podcast interview with the CEO of Quilt and it really seemed he didn't expect the audience to even know what a split system was or how it worked.
It also confused me for a long time that they are called "heat pumps". I'm used to that term describing the technology more broadly, as in heat pump hot water systems, etc.
It also confused me for a long time that they are called "heat pumps". I'm used to that term describing the technology more broadly, as in heat pump hot water systems, etc.
Mini-splits are common in the US too.
The innovation seems to be two-fold:
- looks stylish
- vertically integrated installer network
Of those two ideas, “looks stylish” seems like a winner to me, but it is also easily copied.
The innovation seems to be two-fold:
- looks stylish
- vertically integrated installer network
Of those two ideas, “looks stylish” seems like a winner to me, but it is also easily copied.
I'm surprised that lack of installers is even a pain point though. Here, I had dozens, perhaps hundreds of choices. And once we decided what we were getting it was done within a week.
Australia is more regulated than the US when it comes to plumbing and electrical, but it's still no problem getting an installer. Anyone who can install an air conditioner can install a heat pump, it's literally an identical job.
No airflow is a bummer. My boring ducted AC brings fresh air to each room. Optionally mixed with fresh air from outside. Minisplit guarantees you are just circulating the same air around the room.
Having ducted AC that brings fresh air to each room has the obvious drawback that you're wasting energy to cool down (or heat up) rooms that do not contain any humans. Like when you are sleeping in your bedroom, there's no point in cooling your living room and kitchen as well in most cases. A split system that only circulates air within one room would use a fraction of the energy in that case.
Anyway, you could always install one of these in addition to your aircon if you want air from the outside: https://broan-nutone.com/en-us/fresh-air-systems/residential
Anyway, you could always install one of these in addition to your aircon if you want air from the outside: https://broan-nutone.com/en-us/fresh-air-systems/residential
I know smart duct vents exist, but I am hesitant to dramatically change the pressure the ducts operate under since it might blow out the circulation fan.
Daikin has a range which pulls air from the outside. I'm using it in the room I am in now. Here in Sendai the nights are cold enough that my house is coasting still. Thus the mini split is acting only as a fan and pulling in fresh air. This house is old, 30+ years, so it's nice as a retrofit to improve air quality.
Opening a window would be an obvious alternative but then sound would mix.
The true benefit of mini splits is the hyper competitive market. There is a mini split for all desires and the prices to install are reasonable here in Japan.
Opening a window would be an obvious alternative but then sound would mix.
The true benefit of mini splits is the hyper competitive market. There is a mini split for all desires and the prices to install are reasonable here in Japan.
Having an ex-Googler on board could be seen as a potential yellow flag, as it opens the door to the future 'Google-ification' of things! But hey, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they've seen the light since departing the Googleplex. After all, everyone deserves a chance to turn over a new leaf!
" If someone installs a single system in one room, at a cost of $6,499 ..."
WHAT???
I can buy a panasonic 1.5hp mini-split inverter, enough for a medium sized room, for <$500, then a couple hundred to install it at most.
And probably a hand-crafted heirloom wood surround/cabinet with solid gold accents for the remaining $~6k.
WHAT???
I can buy a panasonic 1.5hp mini-split inverter, enough for a medium sized room, for <$500, then a couple hundred to install it at most.
And probably a hand-crafted heirloom wood surround/cabinet with solid gold accents for the remaining $~6k.
Sounds like it's optimized for places that don't get cold.
based on what?
No mention of being better than existing heat pumps beyond heavy central emphasis on the aesthetics.
most of the population does not live in areas that regularly have below zero Fahrenheit temperatures, still a massive market despite not working in minnesota
And still a speedbump to universal use because they only work situationally and can't just be used by default. Traditional heating technologies can. They just work everywhere.
Heat pumps have to be opted into by choice on a regional basis as an alternative to the default heating options.
Heat pumps have to be opted into by choice on a regional basis as an alternative to the default heating options.
This is already the case. In the West, Seattle for example, electric heat is very common while in the Midwest it is not.
This is kind of a nonsense argument.
"They just work everywhere" isn't true. Not everywhere has natural gas access, not everywhere has oil/propane delivery, not everywhere has access to wood fuel.
So now we're back to making situational decisions about heating technology anyway.
One fuel source that's more universally available than any of the above is electricity.
Electric heat pumps can work in more places than any single traditional fuel source. It's only when you combine all of those fuel sources you can make the "less universal" argument.
Add electric baseboards as a backup for sub -5F temps and you can cover 100% of the country with electricity.
"They just work everywhere" isn't true. Not everywhere has natural gas access, not everywhere has oil/propane delivery, not everywhere has access to wood fuel.
So now we're back to making situational decisions about heating technology anyway.
One fuel source that's more universally available than any of the above is electricity.
Electric heat pumps can work in more places than any single traditional fuel source. It's only when you combine all of those fuel sources you can make the "less universal" argument.
Add electric baseboards as a backup for sub -5F temps and you can cover 100% of the country with electricity.
I could almost believe you were making your argument in good faith until,
>Add electric baseboards as a backup for sub -5F temps and you can cover 100% of the country with electricity.
Now that is nonsense. They don't work in Minneapolis. Which brings us back full circle to the topic at hand: this "ex-googler" heat pump does nothing to improve on the operations or universality of heat pumps. It just makes them look aesthetically pleasing and that's worthless.
I'm not anti-heat-pump. I just wish they'd be developed into a truly universal solution.
>Add electric baseboards as a backup for sub -5F temps and you can cover 100% of the country with electricity.
Now that is nonsense. They don't work in Minneapolis. Which brings us back full circle to the topic at hand: this "ex-googler" heat pump does nothing to improve on the operations or universality of heat pumps. It just makes them look aesthetically pleasing and that's worthless.
I'm not anti-heat-pump. I just wish they'd be developed into a truly universal solution.
electric resistance baseboards work everywhere, they're 100% efficient in terms of heat generation
heat pumps work well until about -5F (they still work at temps below this, but max temp is limited)
I know because I live in an area that occasionally sees temps as low as -10F. I removed oil for electric.
when using both in tandem electric heat can work everywhere
but it doesn't matter... only a small percent of the country sees temperatures that low, so it would be fine if they continued using gas
heat pumps work well until about -5F (they still work at temps below this, but max temp is limited)
I know because I live in an area that occasionally sees temps as low as -10F. I removed oil for electric.
when using both in tandem electric heat can work everywhere
but it doesn't matter... only a small percent of the country sees temperatures that low, so it would be fine if they continued using gas
by astounding coincidence, in California Gov Newsom wrote as follows:
( new targets and requested actions outlined in the letter)
Clean and Healthy Buildings: Creating a goal of 3 million climate-ready and climate-friendly homes by 2030 and 7 million by 2035, supplemented by 6 million heat pumps by 2030, and directing 50 percent of investments to low-income and disadvantaged communities.
https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/07.22.2022...
( new targets and requested actions outlined in the letter)
Clean and Healthy Buildings: Creating a goal of 3 million climate-ready and climate-friendly homes by 2030 and 7 million by 2035, supplemented by 6 million heat pumps by 2030, and directing 50 percent of investments to low-income and disadvantaged communities.
https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/07.22.2022...
[deleted]
I retrofit a Fujitsu 4-zone split system into my house, that I bought online. I installed a hidden air handler in a centrally located closet to cover the open-floorplan downstairs, which mostly made that space useless for other storage. I also installed 3 recessed flush-mount ceiling-mount units (called a "ceiling cassette") in the bedrooms, which luckily had attic access above. They were 22" wide to fit between the rafters. Nice unobtrusive look. They also offer a floor mounted unit that is less obtrusive than the ol' box on the wall, but it has a slightly lower SEER rating. And can limit where you put your furniture.
Also LG has one called the "Art Cool" which is essentially a very thick picture frame you can hang on the surface and disguise with a pretty picture. They should make one built into an OLED TV...