Is America approaching peak tip?(economist.com)
economist.com
Is America approaching peak tip?
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/06/20/is-america-approaching-peak-tip
87 comments
On holidays it really makes me think should I have frequented some other place where they paid staff better... Instead of seemingly exploiting them and their work...
Holidays are the time I feel best about tipping. When I first moved to my local area for school, I had no family and no place to really go for thanksgiving. And really no place was open (what with it being a holiday and all). The one exception was a local diner that's open 24/7/365. As a broke college student in a new town, that diner was my go to spot for that first thanksgiving and many a holiday after when everything else was closed and I had no where to go.
Since those days, even though I have family and friends to have holiday meals with, I've made it a point every year to have a small meal at the diner even if it's just coffee and a desert. And since I'm doing much better these days than a poor broke college student, I do it because I want to leave a large tip for the staff. No big Oprah style "you get at tip and you get a tip" performance or videos for youtube, just a simple card and big tip expressing my gratitude for them being there those years ago for past me, and for being around today for all the people who don't have anywhere to go still.
Whether they consider themselves exploited or not. Whether they're there because they need the work and the money, or (like I often did when I worked retail) they volunteered for the holiday shift because they had no where to be that day either. In either case, I was and remain grateful and the holidays are the one time a year I truly enjoy giving a tip.
Since those days, even though I have family and friends to have holiday meals with, I've made it a point every year to have a small meal at the diner even if it's just coffee and a desert. And since I'm doing much better these days than a poor broke college student, I do it because I want to leave a large tip for the staff. No big Oprah style "you get at tip and you get a tip" performance or videos for youtube, just a simple card and big tip expressing my gratitude for them being there those years ago for past me, and for being around today for all the people who don't have anywhere to go still.
Whether they consider themselves exploited or not. Whether they're there because they need the work and the money, or (like I often did when I worked retail) they volunteered for the holiday shift because they had no where to be that day either. In either case, I was and remain grateful and the holidays are the one time a year I truly enjoy giving a tip.
That is nice, and I really resonate with that. But I would be interested to know: would you still tip if you knew they now no longer catered for the broke college student? Are you tipping as a thank you to how they treated your historical self, or an incentive to keep up a good culture? For me I would feel conflicted about tipping and not tipping
I'm not quite sure I understand you question. I would tip in this manner for as long as they remained a place that was open 24/7/365. They weren't catering to the broke college student crowd, they're just one of those diners that's always open, of which there are a handful in most states. Usually the crowd they're catering to, if there is one are third shift employees and overnight truckers.
Even if they were paying their employees a full wage and not as tipped servers, I would still be tipping in this manner. It's an expression of gratitude to the people who – whether by choice or by necessity – make it so that even someone with no place to go on a holiday can have some place to go.
If that doesn't answer the question you were asking, as I said, I wasn't 100% clear on it so my apologies.
Even if they were paying their employees a full wage and not as tipped servers, I would still be tipping in this manner. It's an expression of gratitude to the people who – whether by choice or by necessity – make it so that even someone with no place to go on a holiday can have some place to go.
If that doesn't answer the question you were asking, as I said, I wasn't 100% clear on it so my apologies.
Isn’t it strange how employers can make the decision to pay their workers less than we think they’re worth, employees can make the decision to take a job working for less than we think they’re worth, and yet the person feeling responsible for all these decisions is us?
It is end result of free market. Every side, consumer, buyer, seller, employer, employee and so on try to get away with paying least they can. This is usually by choice, not many actually combat this... The strange bit is how we have ended up in situation that there is some moral mandate that there is extra payment between consumer and employee. In all other parts system operates rationally. You pay what you have to get something. Be it the product or the labour. Paying more will have indirect benefits like better retention and maybe better quality(more effective or better selling staff).
On employee side, well there is usually not option to forgo work as money is needed for survival... So their only option is to take work that is less than they might think they are worth. But this often results in poor retention as they will move for better options when possible.
On employee side, well there is usually not option to forgo work as money is needed for survival... So their only option is to take work that is less than they might think they are worth. But this often results in poor retention as they will move for better options when possible.
Arguably it's the result of a market failure. I don't know many people who enjoy tipping, in which case, I'd expect a free market would eventually produce some restaurants where you don't have to tip, even if it ends up being short-lived.
Instead, rather than see some businesses experiment with eliminating tips, I see a lot of businesses that haven't historically had tips start to request them. Worse, none of them as far as I can tell have lowered prices: it's just a new cost on top, much like bullshit fees tacked on by other industries, only with a new shame component built-in if you dare express frustration at having to pay it.
It's greedy exploitation stemming from the knowledge that the "free market" rarely exerts corrective pressures as well as advertised. The invisible hand is largely invisible because it isn't there.
Instead, rather than see some businesses experiment with eliminating tips, I see a lot of businesses that haven't historically had tips start to request them. Worse, none of them as far as I can tell have lowered prices: it's just a new cost on top, much like bullshit fees tacked on by other industries, only with a new shame component built-in if you dare express frustration at having to pay it.
It's greedy exploitation stemming from the knowledge that the "free market" rarely exerts corrective pressures as well as advertised. The invisible hand is largely invisible because it isn't there.
Some restaurants have been experimenting with eliminating or reducing tipping.[1] But I agree that it's a difficult task for the "free market" to solve at scale.
[1] https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/american-restaurants-do... https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/tipless...
[1] https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/american-restaurants-do... https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/tipless...
>well there is usually not option to forgo work as money is needed for survival... So their only option is to take work that is less than they might think they are worth
Is this somehow bad? Everything is only "worth" as what people are willing to pay for it, and labor isn't any different.
Is this somehow bad? Everything is only "worth" as what people are willing to pay for it, and labor isn't any different.
This is exactly true but it’s hard to accept that some people that are willing to work simply aren’t skilled enough to make a living wage
On the other hand, it also gives the consumer more power over the wages of an employee than any other business. Do you think your fast food or retail employees are under paid? Teachers? Fire fighters? Too bad, you have almost 0 power to change that (and some of those positions have policies / legal prohibitions from accepting tips at all). But your local restaurant servers? If you think they're not paid enough, you have the direct ability to make a change on that front. Sure you probably still need to convince everyone else to do it too, but on the other hand, we can see that working in the fact that the "expected" tip rate has risen over time from ~10% to ~20%.
In fact, now that I think about it, since tips are a percentage of the bill, I wonder if tipped wages keep place with inflation better than retail?
Not to say that this is a great system overall, but I also find the mindset that's worried about tipped wages to be odd, because like I said, if you think they should get paid more that's entirely in your control. No one needs to wait for the boss to decide to hand out raises or make market adjustments. And most of my friends who worked tipped jobs weren't bothered by the tips per-se as they were with the times when work was slow. Sure they griped about stingy tippers, but none of them ever had a top complaint of "man I wish I could just make $8/ hour flat rate instead of getting tips"
In fact, now that I think about it, since tips are a percentage of the bill, I wonder if tipped wages keep place with inflation better than retail?
Not to say that this is a great system overall, but I also find the mindset that's worried about tipped wages to be odd, because like I said, if you think they should get paid more that's entirely in your control. No one needs to wait for the boss to decide to hand out raises or make market adjustments. And most of my friends who worked tipped jobs weren't bothered by the tips per-se as they were with the times when work was slow. Sure they griped about stingy tippers, but none of them ever had a top complaint of "man I wish I could just make $8/ hour flat rate instead of getting tips"
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>In the 1950s tips ran to about 10% of bills. By the 1980s they rose to 15%. In recent years they have hit 20%. Whereas tipping used to be reserved for table service at restaurants, now buying a coffee or a muffin is likely to involve the employee flipping around a tablet screen to the customer to solicit a tip. That can be hard to refuse when the person behind you in line is peering over your shoulder. And these screens typically give three options—of, say, 18%, 20% or 23%—making it difficult to opt for something smaller.
This is perhaps a consequence of student debt nightmare from worthless, over priced college degrees. People waiting tables and serving coffee now are "highly educated" with expectations!
This is perhaps a consequence of student debt nightmare from worthless, over priced college degrees. People waiting tables and serving coffee now are "highly educated" with expectations!
Not just for that reason. A long time ago my home country had memes about people not being hired as a bus driver because they only had one PhD. The degree inflation is a separate issue and the tips won't happen unless people are paid really poorly. Instead in the us, the wages are too low and the social part of tipping works in employers' favour. Servers don't have high expectations - they want to afford a to live and food. In most places in the us that's not possible without tips.
It is possible, just increase prices by 20% and pay servers. Not that hard.
Convince the whole country to stop taking tips and pay 20% extra then. Let us know how easy that was...
My whole point is that it's not reasonable not to take tips in the us today.
My whole point is that it's not reasonable not to take tips in the us today.
The 20% part is easy enough, a year of inflation prove that pretty well. Now you just need to make tipping illegal, pretty straightforward really.
Not exactly straightforward when alcohol is sold. Alcohol laws see liability placed on the server, which means that technically transaction is directly between the customer and the server. Which is no doubt why tipping traditionally was only a practice in places where alcohol is sold.
I can't imagine we want to change that. Allowing someone to give endless amounts of alcohol to a customer without any repercussions is rife with problems, and removing the ability for a customer to pay a vendor for services rendered would undo everything we know.
I can't imagine we want to change that. Allowing someone to give endless amounts of alcohol to a customer without any repercussions is rife with problems, and removing the ability for a customer to pay a vendor for services rendered would undo everything we know.
>Not exactly straightforward when alcohol is sold. Alcohol laws see liability placed on the server, which means that technically transaction is directly between the customer and the server. Which is no doubt why tipping traditionally was only a practice in places where alcohol is sold.
This is an absolutely bizarre take. The fact that bartenders have liability to not serve patrons absurd amounts of alcohol, has no bearing on what the transaction is "technically" between. If you really want to get down to brass tacks, I doubt the merchant account on the credit card machine is going to the bartender, nor is the revenue showing up on his tax returns. Moreover, bartending isn't the only profession where you take on liability. Doctors are liable for malpractice as well. Does that mean you should tip your doctors as well?
This is an absolutely bizarre take. The fact that bartenders have liability to not serve patrons absurd amounts of alcohol, has no bearing on what the transaction is "technically" between. If you really want to get down to brass tacks, I doubt the merchant account on the credit card machine is going to the bartender, nor is the revenue showing up on his tax returns. Moreover, bartending isn't the only profession where you take on liability. Doctors are liable for malpractice as well. Does that mean you should tip your doctors as well?
By and large doctors operate independent businesses, so you are tipping them. Of course, doctors working as employees isn't completely unheard of. If you are worried about consistency, then you absolutely should also be tipping those in that situation, but as tipping on employment arrangements is never expected anywhere, not even where alcohol is sold, there is no onus for you to. It is your life to live. Do what you want.
>By and large doctors operate independent businesses, so you are tipping them.
Again, this is a bizarre take. The fact the person is the proprietor of the business doesn't mean you're "tipping" them by mere virtue of patronizing their business. Taxi drivers also operate as independent businesses, but it's a stretch to call the mere fact of paying your bill (ie. without adding anything extra) "tipping".
Again, this is a bizarre take. The fact the person is the proprietor of the business doesn't mean you're "tipping" them by mere virtue of patronizing their business. Taxi drivers also operate as independent businesses, but it's a stretch to call the mere fact of paying your bill (ie. without adding anything extra) "tipping".
Any agreement between a patron and a server to exchange an offer of value is also just "paying the bill". Any agreement between the patron and venue is a separate transaction. The law in most jurisdictions makes this quite clear.
What does that have to do with your claim that you're "tipping" doctors when you pay exactly what you owe? Or are you living in some bizzaro world where people actually pay doctors extra on top?
Where is the "extra on top" coming into play?
Imagine I'm your server at a restaurant. You agree to pay the restaurant $20 for the service it rendered and, separately, me $3 for the service I rendered, the latter of which oft called a tip. I now have $3 in hand. What more am I going to get "on top"? I've never heard of such a thing.
Are you somehow confused in thinking that the restaurant is taking $23? That might be reasonably described as "on top", but doesn't happen, so would be nonsensical to discuss.
Imagine I'm your server at a restaurant. You agree to pay the restaurant $20 for the service it rendered and, separately, me $3 for the service I rendered, the latter of which oft called a tip. I now have $3 in hand. What more am I going to get "on top"? I've never heard of such a thing.
Are you somehow confused in thinking that the restaurant is taking $23? That might be reasonably described as "on top", but doesn't happen, so would be nonsensical to discuss.
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Another unsolvable problem for US that has been solved... eh, anywhere else?
There are no countries where tipping is illegal. It is not a solved “problem”.
Of course, tipping isn't required anywhere, and that includes the US. If you don't want to tip... don't?
Of course, tipping isn't required anywhere, and that includes the US. If you don't want to tip... don't?
Haha I find the ridiculous arguments that Americans make to justify whatever insane customs they have somewhat entertaining.
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I imagine restaurant chains could make this their competitive advantage:
"No hidden costs. Service included. No tips expected. What you seen on the menu is the real price"
I'd be inclined to choose such a place as a tourist from Europe, who's accustomed to tipping being optional.
"No hidden costs. Service included. No tips expected. What you seen on the menu is the real price"
I'd be inclined to choose such a place as a tourist from Europe, who's accustomed to tipping being optional.
That's not how most people think. JCPenny tried removing discounts and clearance sales so they could say "what you see is the real price" and it was a disaster. Most people aren't doing the mental math to decide what's actually more expensive.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/27/business/jcpenney-history/ind...
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/27/business/jcpenney-history/ind...
For people that are currently paying 20% tips that's a big win. It doesn't change what they pay but streamlines the process.
But for people who are currently not tipping or paying less than 20% it would be a price increase.
If the people not tipping or tipping less than 20% were evenly distributed across all age, income, and other demographic groups probably nobody else would care.
Unfortunately non-tipping and low tipping is not evenly distributed in the US. That would need to be taken into account.
But for people who are currently not tipping or paying less than 20% it would be a price increase.
If the people not tipping or tipping less than 20% were evenly distributed across all age, income, and other demographic groups probably nobody else would care.
Unfortunately non-tipping and low tipping is not evenly distributed in the US. That would need to be taken into account.
I strongly doubt the local staff have much say about the tip options on the tablet, no matter what level of education they may have.
Not my experience running a restaurant. I just went through this last year. The last thing I wanted to add to my plate was changing the tipping options, but I also have to retain staff who were adamant that the tipping options needed to be higher. There is no business without them, so what do you do?
Raise their salaries?
No way they would go for that. That limits the potential upside. Tips have unlimited earning potential. A salary, even if higher, is a fixed quantity.
I'd be okay with eliminating tipping. Frankly, it would be way easier for me to take my margin if the price was baked into the menu! In a vacuum, it would be silly for me to do anything else. But you don't have a business without the staff. You are pretty much beholden to their whims.
There is a restaurant on every street corner and they are all hiring. If you don't keep staff happy, they aren't sticking around.
I'd be okay with eliminating tipping. Frankly, it would be way easier for me to take my margin if the price was baked into the menu! In a vacuum, it would be silly for me to do anything else. But you don't have a business without the staff. You are pretty much beholden to their whims.
There is a restaurant on every street corner and they are all hiring. If you don't keep staff happy, they aren't sticking around.
I wasn't suggesting to eliminate tipping, I was suggesting to raise salary as an alternative to changing the tipping options.
The unlimited earning potential would still be there.
The unlimited earning potential would still be there.
Well, they didn't ask for a higher salary, they asked for higher tipping options. "That's not what I asked for" isn't exactly a great way to keep staff happy.
Did they know that a higher salary was a possibility?
Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips?
As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum?
Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips?
As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum?
> Did they know that a higher salary was a possibility?
I certainly can't read minds, but I find it hard to believe that someone – especially someone who realized they could ask for higher tip options – would not realize that they could also ask for a higher salary. You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. I would be surprised if any of them were that out to lunch, but I don't have concrete data to go on.
I get higher salary requests too – and usually have to fulfill them, you don't have a business without staff – but that isn't the instance I was talking about. This doesn't really have any relevance to the topic at hand.
After all, if you are the server, you're going to want the highest tips you can get even if you also have a higher salary. Why wouldn't you? Let's be real. They are not doing the job of a server just for fun, they are there to maximize profit.
> Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips?
I wouldn't have much choice if that is what they wanted. You don't have a business without staff. I guess what you are asking is if it would bankrupt me? Who knows? There are too many hidden variables to even start to guess. I mean, you have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. We all understand that there is some tipping point where bankruptcy becomes inevitable, so servers wouldn't push for a million dollars a year or something. But assuming you mean within reason.
> As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum?
A segment of the staff would fit into that end of the spectrum. Unfortunately, the awful state of software in the industry means that variable tipping options wasn't a technical choice (absent of running two entirely separate system). As such, they got pushed into the same rates the other restaurant staff whether they liked it or not. I didn't hear any complaints, though. If they start asking for lower tipping rates, I might have to find a workaround for the technical limitations. But so far it hasn't come up (and I will be completely shocked if it ever does).
I certainly can't read minds, but I find it hard to believe that someone – especially someone who realized they could ask for higher tip options – would not realize that they could also ask for a higher salary. You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. I would be surprised if any of them were that out to lunch, but I don't have concrete data to go on.
I get higher salary requests too – and usually have to fulfill them, you don't have a business without staff – but that isn't the instance I was talking about. This doesn't really have any relevance to the topic at hand.
After all, if you are the server, you're going to want the highest tips you can get even if you also have a higher salary. Why wouldn't you? Let's be real. They are not doing the job of a server just for fun, they are there to maximize profit.
> Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips?
I wouldn't have much choice if that is what they wanted. You don't have a business without staff. I guess what you are asking is if it would bankrupt me? Who knows? There are too many hidden variables to even start to guess. I mean, you have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. We all understand that there is some tipping point where bankruptcy becomes inevitable, so servers wouldn't push for a million dollars a year or something. But assuming you mean within reason.
> As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum?
A segment of the staff would fit into that end of the spectrum. Unfortunately, the awful state of software in the industry means that variable tipping options wasn't a technical choice (absent of running two entirely separate system). As such, they got pushed into the same rates the other restaurant staff whether they liked it or not. I didn't hear any complaints, though. If they start asking for lower tipping rates, I might have to find a workaround for the technical limitations. But so far it hasn't come up (and I will be completely shocked if it ever does).
I really dislike savvy servers. In my regular trips to the US they leave me feeling quite unsettled. The best wait staff are the ones in Europe. They really hate you for being a customer. I respect that. The best system I've lived with is NZ: table service is less common, you often go up to the counter to order, you always go up to pay. There's less interaction which is fine by me, I'm there to have a nice meal, not have a relationship with the staff. Americans have a different attitude to the whole experience of eating out, I'm not convinced it's a healthy one.
> but I find it hard to believe that someone ... You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server.
Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers?
Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant? (Which I've read about in previous stories about tippping/no tippping. Like giving poor service to people they know won't tip well, or telling lies about the state of the restaurant to get a sympathy bonus.)
Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue?
Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"? Because your description to me sounds like they are correctly using their market advantage, which doesn't require a college degree.
That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment.
Your response also sounds like I am correct, and it's not the people who are behind the counter serving muffins who are the main driver of the change in your restaurant's policies, bur rather they are the secondary beneficiaries of changes driven by your (traditionally tipped) wait staff.
Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers?
Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant? (Which I've read about in previous stories about tippping/no tippping. Like giving poor service to people they know won't tip well, or telling lies about the state of the restaurant to get a sympathy bonus.)
Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue?
Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"? Because your description to me sounds like they are correctly using their market advantage, which doesn't require a college degree.
That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment.
Your response also sounds like I am correct, and it's not the people who are behind the counter serving muffins who are the main driver of the change in your restaurant's policies, bur rather they are the secondary beneficiaries of changes driven by your (traditionally tipped) wait staff.
> Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers?
They're likely savvy enough to know that if I can cashflow what would have been the tip, it works in my favour. There is good reason the workers (and, quite often, customers!) prefer to keep it a separate transaction. Sucks for me, but what can you do? You don't have a business without staff (and customers). They hold all the power.
> Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant?
No doubt to the extent that it is to their favour. They most certainly aren't there for my benefit.
> Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue?
Perhaps, but pursuant of a degree is always done for the feel good emotions, not rational decision making. Not even the savviest person alive is able to keep all emotions at bay. Sometimes you just gotta spend money to get laid.
> Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"?
Well, if we look to the historical record it does not appear that servers always had savvy, but that the rise of savvy people taking serving positions has raised the bar (although that could be the result of not having good data rather than some actual change).
What we do know is that colleges flat out won't allow anyone without savvy into their halls, going to great lengths to banish anyone who might try, so as a result there is a strong correlation between having savvy and having college debt. Did savvy people start taking serving jobs because they had to in order to service the debt? It is quite possible.
> That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment.
Okay....? That's fine. I couldn't care less about what richrichie had to say, and I care even less about someone pressing an arbitrary button that does nothing.
> Your response also sounds like I am correct
Let's hope. As long as it isn't me that's correct. I can think of nothing more defeating than spending all that time writing comments, and then not being able to learn anything from it because I was already correct.
They're likely savvy enough to know that if I can cashflow what would have been the tip, it works in my favour. There is good reason the workers (and, quite often, customers!) prefer to keep it a separate transaction. Sucks for me, but what can you do? You don't have a business without staff (and customers). They hold all the power.
> Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant?
No doubt to the extent that it is to their favour. They most certainly aren't there for my benefit.
> Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue?
Perhaps, but pursuant of a degree is always done for the feel good emotions, not rational decision making. Not even the savviest person alive is able to keep all emotions at bay. Sometimes you just gotta spend money to get laid.
> Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"?
Well, if we look to the historical record it does not appear that servers always had savvy, but that the rise of savvy people taking serving positions has raised the bar (although that could be the result of not having good data rather than some actual change).
What we do know is that colleges flat out won't allow anyone without savvy into their halls, going to great lengths to banish anyone who might try, so as a result there is a strong correlation between having savvy and having college debt. Did savvy people start taking serving jobs because they had to in order to service the debt? It is quite possible.
> That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment.
Okay....? That's fine. I couldn't care less about what richrichie had to say, and I care even less about someone pressing an arbitrary button that does nothing.
> Your response also sounds like I am correct
Let's hope. As long as it isn't me that's correct. I can think of nothing more defeating than spending all that time writing comments, and then not being able to learn anything from it because I was already correct.
I wrote my comment as an objection to richrichie's dismissal of counter staff with "worthless" degrees. You replied with your experience of mostly table service staff, with no mention of their degree attainment.
What historical record do you refer to?
Servers have always had savvy, and started unionizing in the late 1800s, including a wave of strikes in 1912 and 1913. This didn't require a college degree. https://restaurantworkersunion.org/allarticles/nycrestaurant... says three of the demands were:
"The first demand was for a $20 minimum weekly wage for waiters, which would largely eliminate the tipping system. The second was for a universal eight-hour working day, which would replace the much longer shifts that many had been forced to work. The third demand was for the abolition of private employment agencies, which often took portions of worker’s pay in return for securing a job."
As for "colleges flat out won't allow anyone without savvy into their halls".
How do colleges measure "savvy"? So-called "legacy admissions" are not based on savvy. If someone is admitted for being a good football, water polo, or lacross player, does that automatically make them more savvy than being a good Pokémon player?
If your parents are rich enough to pay for classwork, SAT, and ACT tutors, does that make you more savvy? (To say nothing of parents who have donated millions to the school over the years, and just happen to have their kid accepted there.)
I may have done well on my SAT and got good grades (which is enough for many colleges), but that did not make me savvy in any sort of business sense that would apply to a waitstaff position.
Acting and improv training would have been better, and that doesn't require a college education (likely one of those "useless" degrees).
What historical record do you refer to?
Servers have always had savvy, and started unionizing in the late 1800s, including a wave of strikes in 1912 and 1913. This didn't require a college degree. https://restaurantworkersunion.org/allarticles/nycrestaurant... says three of the demands were:
"The first demand was for a $20 minimum weekly wage for waiters, which would largely eliminate the tipping system. The second was for a universal eight-hour working day, which would replace the much longer shifts that many had been forced to work. The third demand was for the abolition of private employment agencies, which often took portions of worker’s pay in return for securing a job."
As for "colleges flat out won't allow anyone without savvy into their halls".
How do colleges measure "savvy"? So-called "legacy admissions" are not based on savvy. If someone is admitted for being a good football, water polo, or lacross player, does that automatically make them more savvy than being a good Pokémon player?
If your parents are rich enough to pay for classwork, SAT, and ACT tutors, does that make you more savvy? (To say nothing of parents who have donated millions to the school over the years, and just happen to have their kid accepted there.)
I may have done well on my SAT and got good grades (which is enough for many colleges), but that did not make me savvy in any sort of business sense that would apply to a waitstaff position.
Acting and improv training would have been better, and that doesn't require a college education (likely one of those "useless" degrees).
In Denmark those staff will often press the "no tip" button themselves.
They don't want to beg.
They don't want to beg.
> This is perhaps a consequence of student debt nightmare from worthless, over priced college degrees. People waiting tables and serving coffee now are "highly educated" with expectations!
I hate this sentiment. Not every degree is going to lead to a high paying career, but knowledge is worth having in it's own right. If people are passionate enough spend four years studying art history or poetry or underwater basket weaving then I'm glad we are sharing and preserving that knowledge in our culture. I don't like tipping culture, and I don't really think the two are related, but if tipping is the only way that we could get a generally well rounded educated population then I suppose I'll prefer tipping.
I hate this sentiment. Not every degree is going to lead to a high paying career, but knowledge is worth having in it's own right. If people are passionate enough spend four years studying art history or poetry or underwater basket weaving then I'm glad we are sharing and preserving that knowledge in our culture. I don't like tipping culture, and I don't really think the two are related, but if tipping is the only way that we could get a generally well rounded educated population then I suppose I'll prefer tipping.
This ignores the actual reason most people go to college: They are by and large not doing it to gain knowledge for its own sake, or to become more well rounded people. They are doing it for vocational training and/or to satisfy a credential requirement/expectation from employers.
Yes, there exist (often already very privileged) students who have no career motivation for going to school and are just going for the knowledge and culture, but the vast majority go for career reasons.
Yes, there exist (often already very privileged) students who have no career motivation for going to school and are just going for the knowledge and culture, but the vast majority go for career reasons.
>I hate this sentiment. Not every degree is going to lead to a high paying career, but knowledge is worth having in it's own right. If people are passionate enough spend four years studying art history or poetry or underwater basket weaving then I'm glad we are sharing and preserving that knowledge in our culture.
There's probably some non-zero value in learning underwater basket weaving or whatever, but I don't see why it should be publicly funded. I don't see any fundamental difference between someone wasting 6 figures on an useless degree, and someone wasting 6 figures on a useless hobby.
There's probably some non-zero value in learning underwater basket weaving or whatever, but I don't see why it should be publicly funded. I don't see any fundamental difference between someone wasting 6 figures on an useless degree, and someone wasting 6 figures on a useless hobby.
Personally I think having a society that has a mix of educational background is desirable. I don’t really expect a national emergency that can only be averted my mobilizing our collective underwater basket weaving expertise, but I do think in a general sense it’s good for society to hedge its bets and invest some amount in a wide variety of expertise. Career prospects are already a good incentive for people to study in demand fields. Having a few underwater basket weavers is still a gain for everyone in society.
On top of that, in the US a lot of time in an undergraduate program is spent on general education. Someone who’s degree is in underwater basket weaving still has more education in general than a person without a degree, and that’s also good for society.
On top of that, in the US a lot of time in an undergraduate program is spent on general education. Someone who’s degree is in underwater basket weaving still has more education in general than a person without a degree, and that’s also good for society.
I only tip for table service and taxis. If I see a tip on anything else, I happily hit no tip. I don't do delivery either since even with tips delivery drivers still bring my food cold. I'd rather get off my bum and guarantee hot food immediately without the risk of the driver eating it.
Feel free to not tip if you make less than the tipee or maybe 2x the tipee ?
My home currency is worth ~20x less than USD. I fall totally into this category. But I feel enough dumb pressure that I'll cave. As a result I simply avoid these types of interactions. USA is the weirdest place to be poor! One somehow feels shabby and less-than, even while walking past endless homeless.
What does it mean for a currency to be worth less than another currency? That makes no sense.
I read it as wages, which makes total sense. A well-off person in one country could earn less than a poor person in another.
I think they mean that 1 USD = 20 theircurrency, which is meaningless.
Yeah, I saw a default tip for making a week-long hotel booking on online, which amounts to more than peanuts--oh and it was on top of the already mandatory 'service fees and taxes'. I would think only the taxes are mandatory and service fees should be in the advertised price. (I checked if booking different number of days changed the 'service fee', no it was a straight daily percentage). Same goes for shipping+handling that hides the actual price of items.
Shipping and handling costs can vary widely with the number of items purchased. If I buy one shoe lace or three, the shipping costs are going to be the same... so if you price shipping into the item price, folks buying three pairs of shoe laces will pay excess shipping from folks buying one pair of shoe laces.
I'm not talking about reasonable rates but the ones on eBay that lists an item underpriced at $20 with $50 s+h. I've started seeing this pattern spread to other online sellers besides such platforms.
This is similar to 'free delivery' on Uber Eats which still has a service charge--it's a delivery service! All it means is there's no extra delivery charge on top. Plus priority if you'd like that maybe still warm. It's all a meaningless cash grab.
This is similar to 'free delivery' on Uber Eats which still has a service charge--it's a delivery service! All it means is there's no extra delivery charge on top. Plus priority if you'd like that maybe still warm. It's all a meaningless cash grab.
Oh, I can agree with that. Ebay has so much potential if they would clean the platform up of practices like that.
I would love for my state to make all fees and tips included in the price like Europe. The price should be the price. Make asking for a tip illegal. Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers so they do not need the tip. Have a separate price for take away so that eating in includes a bit extra to cover the additional costs.
But alas, I live in a red state so it is never going to happen.
But alas, I live in a red state so it is never going to happen.
Tipping isn’t illegal in Europe, and as someone who has worked in the service industry I don’t really like the idea of making it illegal either (Even if its just making asking for one illegal).
But IMO it should be a measure of the service provided not an expectation pushed on the customer. A nice gesture given by the customer.
I remember a visit to the States where I stayed with friends, so got to see “Real America”, not just tourist traps. On my visit when we were just chilling out I remember my friend’s parents ran a Limo service and the discussion they had because one rider hadn’t tipped the driver, and who they were going to call them up and demand a tip. I can remember thinking that shit just wouldn’t fly back home and if I got a call demanding a tip after the fact I would just laugh my head off and put the phone down.
But it’s a different culture I suppose, one I still can’t get my head around.
EDIT: I see how it would be hard to change right now, IMO it would have to be gradual. Servers can easily make more than their wage just in tips, removing tips and paying the staff the same "wage" as if they got tips would have to put that increase of costs on to the products, which the avg customer will baulk at even if they are paying the same overall.
But IMO it should be a measure of the service provided not an expectation pushed on the customer. A nice gesture given by the customer.
I remember a visit to the States where I stayed with friends, so got to see “Real America”, not just tourist traps. On my visit when we were just chilling out I remember my friend’s parents ran a Limo service and the discussion they had because one rider hadn’t tipped the driver, and who they were going to call them up and demand a tip. I can remember thinking that shit just wouldn’t fly back home and if I got a call demanding a tip after the fact I would just laugh my head off and put the phone down.
But it’s a different culture I suppose, one I still can’t get my head around.
EDIT: I see how it would be hard to change right now, IMO it would have to be gradual. Servers can easily make more than their wage just in tips, removing tips and paying the staff the same "wage" as if they got tips would have to put that increase of costs on to the products, which the avg customer will baulk at even if they are paying the same overall.
Excessively requiring tipping is a form of tax-dodging. Tips are untaxed and exempt from social security fees.
Tips are absolutely taxable income and are required to be reported: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tip-income-is-taxable-and-must-...
Which is why your server wants you to tip in cash, because then there's no official record of the tip.
P.S. to tipped employees, paying taxes sucks, but cheating yourself out of SS credits by not paying your taxes sucks more in the long term. Especially if you wind up with some disability in early adulthood that limits your work capabilities. You want your pay history with the social security administration to be as long and as high as it can be, so bite the bullet and pay your taxes on your tips too.
Which is why your server wants you to tip in cash, because then there's no official record of the tip.
P.S. to tipped employees, paying taxes sucks, but cheating yourself out of SS credits by not paying your taxes sucks more in the long term. Especially if you wind up with some disability in early adulthood that limits your work capabilities. You want your pay history with the social security administration to be as long and as high as it can be, so bite the bullet and pay your taxes on your tips too.
>Which is why your server wants you to tip in cash, because then there's no official record of the tip.
That theoretically makes sense, but I've never actually seen that. If I'm paying with card, it's almost always added to the total bill, so there's always a record.
That theoretically makes sense, but I've never actually seen that. If I'm paying with card, it's almost always added to the total bill, so there's always a record.
Right, if you put your tip on your card (or the restaurant adds it automatically), that's going to have a record because it's not in cash. The restaurant owners want this because having the records of tips means they don't have to pay more than the tipped minimum wage if your tips + the base rate >= standard minimum wage. They want to be able to prove to the government you got your full minimum wage, so they want you to use a card for tipping.
Your server probably still prefers you to leave the line blank and tip in cash though.
Your server probably still prefers you to leave the line blank and tip in cash though.
I just bought movie tickets with a $1.89 "fee" tacked on to the price. They didn't even say what the fee was for. Just "$11.75 + $1.89 Fee". There was zero findable information about what the fee was for and why it was that amount. They didn't even list a vague purpose like "Service Fee." It was just a fee. Why do this? Just say "$13.64" like a normal human being.
A big percentage of ticket price goes directly to the studio/distributor, perhaps the entire fee stays with the theater.
> Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers so they do not need the tip.
Servers at my mid-range restaurant bring in around $20 per hour in tips, on top of a base $16 minimum wage. So approximately $36 per hour is where you'd need it to land. Anything less and they ain't showing up. It is already hard enough to find anyone at that rate!
Servers at my mid-range restaurant bring in around $20 per hour in tips, on top of a base $16 minimum wage. So approximately $36 per hour is where you'd need it to land. Anything less and they ain't showing up. It is already hard enough to find anyone at that rate!
Let the industry self-regulate that. You stipulate a reasonable minimum wage, but like most other industries, mid-level and above restaurants need to pay a competitive wage, or talent goes elsewhere. If the going rate post-tip is about $36/hour, then the restaurants can target that as their post-tip benchmark wage.
I can tell you as a different type of talent worker, nobody is trying to pay me minimum wage. Minimum wage is set to ensure there's a reasonable floor on downmarket offerings. When you're 18 and fresh out of school and you work at your local Cracker Barrel, minimum wage ensures you don't get exploited. It's not the benchmark for experienced workers who have picked up a valuable skillset.
You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business, makes their business unviable. Well for one, that's nobody else's problem -- there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business. Making something economically viable is the whole game.
But it seems like everyone just flunked grade school arithmetic.
The cost is a wash at the end. At mid-range restaurants and above, practically everyone tips the same 18-20% on top of the base cost of the meal. If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference. It's the exact same cashflow. You can pay a living wage on what you're already charging customers on the final card settlement.
They all seem to be imagining this nightmare scenario where they're forced to raise their menu prices, and that prices them out of the business versus their competitors who, somehow, don't need to do the same.
The law shouldn't cater to business operators with no business sense.
I can tell you as a different type of talent worker, nobody is trying to pay me minimum wage. Minimum wage is set to ensure there's a reasonable floor on downmarket offerings. When you're 18 and fresh out of school and you work at your local Cracker Barrel, minimum wage ensures you don't get exploited. It's not the benchmark for experienced workers who have picked up a valuable skillset.
You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business, makes their business unviable. Well for one, that's nobody else's problem -- there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business. Making something economically viable is the whole game.
But it seems like everyone just flunked grade school arithmetic.
The cost is a wash at the end. At mid-range restaurants and above, practically everyone tips the same 18-20% on top of the base cost of the meal. If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference. It's the exact same cashflow. You can pay a living wage on what you're already charging customers on the final card settlement.
They all seem to be imagining this nightmare scenario where they're forced to raise their menu prices, and that prices them out of the business versus their competitors who, somehow, don't need to do the same.
The law shouldn't cater to business operators with no business sense.
> You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business
They're not exactly wrong, I suppose. A restaurant isn't in the business of food, they are in the business of letting the patrons feel like they are kings for a moment of their life. Being able to throw some shilling at "the help" is part of the experience.
I've experimented with not offering tipping as an option when I have worked on the floor and customers become quite irate about it. I was actually a little taken back at first, but it makes sense when you stop and think about why the business model exists.
That's not say restaurants couldn't pivot into a new business model, but outlawing the old model would absolutely see that business go under. Anything else would be in violation of the law.
> there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business.
Fair enough. But by the same token, it is curious that there are calls to end the experience customers crave and one that provides a pretty good living for those doing the work. All parties are making the transactions voluntarily.
> If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference.
Indeed. Which is way better for me as it is easier for me to skim my margins off the top. Humans aren't perfect calculators. They wouldn't notice a few cents here and a few cents there in my favour. The law prevents me from taking a margin from tips, though, so there is much greater accounting visible to the worker there. I suspect the "tipping should be illegal" idea stems from restauranteurs themselves.
I am certainly a proponent! Bring on making tipping illegal. Who doesn't want the cashflow through their own books? But until then, I am beholden to my customers and staff. Without them, I truly don't have a business.
They're not exactly wrong, I suppose. A restaurant isn't in the business of food, they are in the business of letting the patrons feel like they are kings for a moment of their life. Being able to throw some shilling at "the help" is part of the experience.
I've experimented with not offering tipping as an option when I have worked on the floor and customers become quite irate about it. I was actually a little taken back at first, but it makes sense when you stop and think about why the business model exists.
That's not say restaurants couldn't pivot into a new business model, but outlawing the old model would absolutely see that business go under. Anything else would be in violation of the law.
> there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business.
Fair enough. But by the same token, it is curious that there are calls to end the experience customers crave and one that provides a pretty good living for those doing the work. All parties are making the transactions voluntarily.
> If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference.
Indeed. Which is way better for me as it is easier for me to skim my margins off the top. Humans aren't perfect calculators. They wouldn't notice a few cents here and a few cents there in my favour. The law prevents me from taking a margin from tips, though, so there is much greater accounting visible to the worker there. I suspect the "tipping should be illegal" idea stems from restauranteurs themselves.
I am certainly a proponent! Bring on making tipping illegal. Who doesn't want the cashflow through their own books? But until then, I am beholden to my customers and staff. Without them, I truly don't have a business.
I just wanted to say that your post challenged (and will likely change) an assumption I've always had about restaurant owners and tipping culture. I've always just assumed, without ever having been restaurateur, that both servers and owners loved/supported the tipping status quo. Of course servers love it. But why restaurant owners? "It lets those greedy restaurant owners pay their staff less!" as the trope goes. It never really occurred to me that it's kind of a pain for you, too, and that you'd also rather just ditch it.
The thing I don't understand though is: How is tipping sneaking in to other non-restaurant businesses, if it's not really supported by the business owners? After all, they're the ones deciding to offer the option to tip.
The thing I don't understand though is: How is tipping sneaking in to other non-restaurant businesses, if it's not really supported by the business owners? After all, they're the ones deciding to offer the option to tip.
> After all, they're the ones deciding to offer the option to tip.
I don't have direct experiencing running a retail business outside of hospitality, but I would venture to guess it is the only way to retain staff. After all, if you are the worker, why would you work at the store that refuses to allow tips when you can just as easily go to the store next door that does?
Superficially, it is true that the business owner gets the final say, but they don't get to make the choice in a vacuum. You don't have a business without staff.
I don't have direct experiencing running a retail business outside of hospitality, but I would venture to guess it is the only way to retain staff. After all, if you are the worker, why would you work at the store that refuses to allow tips when you can just as easily go to the store next door that does?
Superficially, it is true that the business owner gets the final say, but they don't get to make the choice in a vacuum. You don't have a business without staff.
> on top of a base $16 minimum wage
That depends on what state you're in. The Federal minimum tipped wage is $2.13 per hour and has not increased in years. (If wages and tips, combined, don't equal the minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, teh employer is supposed to make up teh differences.)
A number of states have set a different minimum tipped wage, just as they have set a different minimum wage. Seven states have the same minimum tipped and non-tipped wage. (California is $16 for both tipped and non-tipped employees.)
That depends on what state you're in. The Federal minimum tipped wage is $2.13 per hour and has not increased in years. (If wages and tips, combined, don't equal the minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, teh employer is supposed to make up teh differences.)
A number of states have set a different minimum tipped wage, just as they have set a different minimum wage. Seven states have the same minimum tipped and non-tipped wage. (California is $16 for both tipped and non-tipped employees.)
> That depends on what state you're in.
Are you under the impression that this is some kind of unobserved Schrodinger's Cat restaurant? There is no depends. That's what it is. It has already been observed. The state within the box is known.
Are you under the impression that this is some kind of unobserved Schrodinger's Cat restaurant? There is no depends. That's what it is. It has already been observed. The state within the box is known.
Why throw in the red state line? No states do that.
Agreed. I live in a blue state where the minimum wage for fast food workers is $20 and they still expect tips on top of that.
What are you talking about?
You can still tip in Europe. In fact, if you tip at bars enough at the rate of 1-3 EURs per drink , you'll end up getting free drinks and significantly better service.
That was the best part about being in Europe. Tips were appreciated whereas in america, wait staff expect them and feel entitled to absorb 25% tips.
That was the best part about being in Europe. Tips were appreciated whereas in america, wait staff expect them and feel entitled to absorb 25% tips.
In Australia there is no tipping and the full price, including all fees and taxes, is the list price. So if you're in a bar and see a beer for $5 and you have $5 in your pocket, you can buy that beer. It speeds things up considerably because when paying for stuff, you can just tap your card. No need to click through a tip UI or fill out a receipt, just tap-and-go.
I would add that tapping your card in Australia now will typically add a service fee on to the price.
Also there are some cafes and restaurants that have 10% surcharge for public holidays, etc. So the hidden costs are creeping in, but thankfully not mainstream yet.
Also there are some cafes and restaurants that have 10% surcharge for public holidays, etc. So the hidden costs are creeping in, but thankfully not mainstream yet.
> Also there are some cafes and restaurants that have 10% surcharge for public holidays
This is increasingly common in NZ but also entirely justifiable as staff must legally be paid time and a half on public holidays and wages is likely the largest component of the restaurant's costs
This is increasingly common in NZ but also entirely justifiable as staff must legally be paid time and a half on public holidays and wages is likely the largest component of the restaurant's costs
This has been common in NZ since at least 2007. It's not really justifiable. Wages aren't 100% of the costs, plus open cafes and restaurants make more on public holiday days. Seeing as it's busier on a public holiday I just avoid going out to places on those days. It feels like a tax on people who don't have a cushy remote job who can time shift their eating out pleasure time.
I can imagine the possibility of the opposite happening. As we reach an economy of automation-based abundance, we might see a transition to a gift economy.
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Tipping is so awkward for everyone involved but to get rid of it would upset a large segment of society. It's foremost out of control and I think it's because of greed, which is not a bad thing because everyone wants to get as much money as they can.
The problem is that the greed has exacerbated beyond reasonable greed and now threatens social cohesion, and commerce. The guilt with tipping, or not tipping enough, or when they bring the card swipe to the table and look at you while you tip. It's.. awful. Simply awful.
I am tired of tipping for what seems to be the basic function of a job, then being tacitly or overtly being guilted into tipping more. In my large American city is the reason I don't go out as often.
The problem is that the greed has exacerbated beyond reasonable greed and now threatens social cohesion, and commerce. The guilt with tipping, or not tipping enough, or when they bring the card swipe to the table and look at you while you tip. It's.. awful. Simply awful.
I am tired of tipping for what seems to be the basic function of a job, then being tacitly or overtly being guilted into tipping more. In my large American city is the reason I don't go out as often.
Interesting. I never feel good about tipping. If I tip I feel bad, because I caved in to the pressure. If I don't tip I feel bad, because the staff will wrongly think I didn't like them or their performance. Then there's the question of how much % is right... What an unpleasant social convention. Just give me higher prices on the menu.