Ask HN: Tired of software career. What now?
111 comments
The traditional career progressions for software developers are management, entrepreneurship, and carpentry.
I feel seen.
Jokes aside, carpentry is an amazing complementary hobby for software related work. There's something about drawing on a piece of paper and using your hands to make it a reality that scratches a lot of itches.
Sadly, entrepreneurship doesn't leave much free time for carpentry.
Jokes aside, carpentry is an amazing complementary hobby for software related work. There's something about drawing on a piece of paper and using your hands to make it a reality that scratches a lot of itches.
Sadly, entrepreneurship doesn't leave much free time for carpentry.
I got into software because I am lazy.
I don't think physical work is for me.
Getting into manual machining is another good one. If you go into it with even a hint of a "move fast and break stuff" mentality you'll find yourself mostly just breaking a lot of stuff. It's good practice for being deliberate in your actions.
Followed by farming
Carpentry sounds amazing actually. Actually working with your hands !
I'm allergic to sawdust so went ceramics instead. Making things is awesome and it's always lots of fun with the anticipation of opening the kiln!
you've missed craft beer brewing
For more context, I develop on weekends and I enjoy that because I can tackle problems I find interesting. But I’m yet to find a job I enjoy that makes me feel whole.
If you enjoy development but not your job, look for a better job. If you have some money saved, try startups, those usually flame out but they are fun while they last and if you're an employee you're getting paid, usually quite well.
You might be asking too much of a job.
Speaking from my own experience, the only times I've ever looked for a job that "made me feel whole" were also the times I felt like other important parts of my life were empty, and I was trying to compensate for that by finding some mythical job that would "complete me."
It's as big a mistake to ask that of a job as it is to ask it of a partner. If you don't show up to the situation already whole, no one person/thing else is going to fix that for you.
Speaking from my own experience, the only times I've ever looked for a job that "made me feel whole" were also the times I felt like other important parts of my life were empty, and I was trying to compensate for that by finding some mythical job that would "complete me."
It's as big a mistake to ask that of a job as it is to ask it of a partner. If you don't show up to the situation already whole, no one person/thing else is going to fix that for you.
Very wise
A lot of value to this wisdom. That said, individuals can have a different kind of brain and carrot/stick equation. For me, the only time I felt whole was when I was only working 20 hrs a week as a freelance dev and I took a lot of breaks/vacation. Made half of what I could be making as a salaried employee but I had the space to build the rest of my life to feel whole. Kept my dream space nice, not dreaming about code or work.
I doubt such thing is sustainable in average software dev gigs but I'll keep trying.
I doubt such thing is sustainable in average software dev gigs but I'll keep trying.
You said “was”, so are you back to a regular salaried job now? Because it was not sustainable?
What sparks your flame? Is it viable as income? If so, try that. Sorry I couldn't be more specific.
It is odd that we treat time like it is the most worthless thing when it is the most valuable thing we have.
It is odd that we treat time like it is the most worthless thing when it is the most valuable thing we have.
Animals, creativity, beaches and reading!
I’d love a creative job. One where people give me open-ended problems or goals and I create, whether that be through logic or art, to arrive at a solution.
I spend almost all my spare time creating (via programming browser extensions) and pondering ideas.
It’s so true what you say about time. I recently dropped to a 32 hour week and it has been the single best choice I’ve made in my life. Now I just need to squeeze out creativity in those 32 hours
I’d love a creative job. One where people give me open-ended problems or goals and I create, whether that be through logic or art, to arrive at a solution.
I spend almost all my spare time creating (via programming browser extensions) and pondering ideas.
It’s so true what you say about time. I recently dropped to a 32 hour week and it has been the single best choice I’ve made in my life. Now I just need to squeeze out creativity in those 32 hours
I moved _back_ to Linux system administration after a few years of full-stack web development. I prefer developing software as a hobby instead of professionally, because the latter is just not enjoyable for me — at least not at any of the companies I've worked for.
I went through a similar career evolution. My escape from development went from evangelism/sales to marketing and finally product management. I actually found the business and customers interesting but could care ever less about tech cool chasing.
I feel ya – also seeking a career change, myself. Is going back to school for some other high-skill field a possibility for you? (doctors, lawyers, engineers, academia, etc.?)
Unfortunately, at least in the US, there are very few other middle-class jobs that someone can get into without a lot of formal education and/or experience. Software dev is (or at least used to be) an extreme outlier in that regard, propelling people up the economic ladder after just a few months of boot camp. I think those days are over, so if you want a comparable quality of life, I think it will take a lot of reskilling and expensive education/credentials (both in time and diplomas) :(
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In the meantime though, I will say this: As a software person, I've found it MUCH nicer to work for smaller to mid-sized companies vs big corporations. The salary isn't as good, but the work itself can be way more meaningful and impactful – everything you do directly impacts the product and customers, vs being a tiny cog in an insignificant wheel. None of the smaller companies I've worked for had the time, patience, or resources for endless Agile crap, for example. The codebases tended to be of mixed quality (sometimes they were homebrewed crap, other times they were OK consultant-written code) but overall, it's very much "not minutiae"... you have way more power over small-biz software like that, and there's a lot of problems to solve since your teams tend to be much smaller and your resources much fewer. All the problems are yours, but you are also empowered to make all the solutions. It's a much more satisfying feeling than "OK, I delivered 14 points this week, hope that shows up on my next review."
Unfortunately, at least in the US, there are very few other middle-class jobs that someone can get into without a lot of formal education and/or experience. Software dev is (or at least used to be) an extreme outlier in that regard, propelling people up the economic ladder after just a few months of boot camp. I think those days are over, so if you want a comparable quality of life, I think it will take a lot of reskilling and expensive education/credentials (both in time and diplomas) :(
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In the meantime though, I will say this: As a software person, I've found it MUCH nicer to work for smaller to mid-sized companies vs big corporations. The salary isn't as good, but the work itself can be way more meaningful and impactful – everything you do directly impacts the product and customers, vs being a tiny cog in an insignificant wheel. None of the smaller companies I've worked for had the time, patience, or resources for endless Agile crap, for example. The codebases tended to be of mixed quality (sometimes they were homebrewed crap, other times they were OK consultant-written code) but overall, it's very much "not minutiae"... you have way more power over small-biz software like that, and there's a lot of problems to solve since your teams tend to be much smaller and your resources much fewer. All the problems are yours, but you are also empowered to make all the solutions. It's a much more satisfying feeling than "OK, I delivered 14 points this week, hope that shows up on my next review."
> Software dev is (or at least used to be) an extreme outlier in that regard, propelling people up the economic ladder after just a few months of boot camp. I think those days are over, so if you want a comparable quality of life, I think it will take a lot of reskilling and expensive education/credentials (both in time and diplomas) :(
Those days have been over for awhile, now even the 4-year degrees aren't cutting it. It probably won't return to the way it was, ever. A combination of macroeconomics and market saturation are mostly to blame, regardless about what the AI grifters are selling executives these days.
Those days have been over for awhile, now even the 4-year degrees aren't cutting it. It probably won't return to the way it was, ever. A combination of macroeconomics and market saturation are mostly to blame, regardless about what the AI grifters are selling executives these days.
> everything you do directly impacts the product and customers, vs being a tiny cog in an insignificant wheel.
This is why I actively sought smaller companies when I was fresh out of uni. I knew I didn't want to be a tiny, insignificant cog in a giant machine, far removed from the users.
At the place I'm at now I'm wearing many hats. I architect solutions along with customers. I implement them, and have a lot of freedom in how that's done, including tools. And there can be lots of interesting programming challenges in the details of this work, be it algorithmically, programming language-wise etc etc, which needs figuring out.
If I have questions regarding some new feature I'm developing I can pick up my phone and call some of our customers to better understand their workflows and needs. Likewise I get very direct feedback, which I like. Most customers don't know what's possible and not, so if you design or implement a good solution it's not seldom you'll be perceived as a literal wizard.
I guess I was somewhat lucky with the place I'm at. My team lead is easy going and doesn't micromanage. Our CEO said he learned quickly that the less he's in the way of us programmers the better, so he lets us do our thing unless there's something precarious.
As you said, I could probably get paid better elsewhere. But I earn enough, and I enjoy what I'm doing so far.
That said, it's not for everyone. You'll probably will need to be tolerant of less-than-great quality code, not mind juggling several things at once, and not mind talking to customers directly.
This is why I actively sought smaller companies when I was fresh out of uni. I knew I didn't want to be a tiny, insignificant cog in a giant machine, far removed from the users.
At the place I'm at now I'm wearing many hats. I architect solutions along with customers. I implement them, and have a lot of freedom in how that's done, including tools. And there can be lots of interesting programming challenges in the details of this work, be it algorithmically, programming language-wise etc etc, which needs figuring out.
If I have questions regarding some new feature I'm developing I can pick up my phone and call some of our customers to better understand their workflows and needs. Likewise I get very direct feedback, which I like. Most customers don't know what's possible and not, so if you design or implement a good solution it's not seldom you'll be perceived as a literal wizard.
I guess I was somewhat lucky with the place I'm at. My team lead is easy going and doesn't micromanage. Our CEO said he learned quickly that the less he's in the way of us programmers the better, so he lets us do our thing unless there's something precarious.
As you said, I could probably get paid better elsewhere. But I earn enough, and I enjoy what I'm doing so far.
That said, it's not for everyone. You'll probably will need to be tolerant of less-than-great quality code, not mind juggling several things at once, and not mind talking to customers directly.
I suggest you try to look for a new job. It doesn't cost you much (other than some time) and you can test if you think the grass is greener on the other side. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It can give you a taste of the hiring market, which isn't very easy right now, and that can sometimes make you appreciate what you have. If you are taking interviews and everything sounds boring, maybe that will give you what you need to look at different careers and then start interviewing for those jobs?
Not every software job is awful though. There's nothing about software itself that make it have to be awful.
Why not just find a different seat and see if that improves your mood? Not every place is organized the same way, not every codebase is spaghetti.
Why not just find a different seat and see if that improves your mood? Not every place is organized the same way, not every codebase is spaghetti.
This.
When a job starts to make you feel this way, it's time for a new job.
Go work at a startup if you want to do green field stuff with latest tooling that doesn't suck yet.
When you interview at a place, make sure it doesn't suck like your current place. Interview them.
When a job starts to make you feel this way, it's time for a new job.
Go work at a startup if you want to do green field stuff with latest tooling that doesn't suck yet.
When you interview at a place, make sure it doesn't suck like your current place. Interview them.
Accurate but it can be really tough to find the good places. My experience is that most huge companies are not great. Too much bureaucracy. Startups can be a lot of fun, but the relentless pressure to grow, and grow fast can cause problems. My favorite places have been small, steadily growing companies working on things that are not "winner take all" markets, where you can do things right, move quickly, and know most of the people you work with.
Have you always felt this way about development? Or is this a newer feeling?
If it's newer, you might just be burnt out and taking a step away from the stuff you hate for a while may be enough to regain your excitement and motivation.
If it's newer, you might just be burnt out and taking a step away from the stuff you hate for a while may be enough to regain your excitement and motivation.
I’ve always felt this way about work. It’s so much of our time working on making other people rich, making things that don’t matter. I recently dropped to a 32 hour week to combat this feeling.
I really enjoy the creativity of development in my spare time. I just wish I had that creativity the whole time.
I’m a person who needs to be constantly thinking of ideas and trying things, that's when I’m at my happiest
I really enjoy the creativity of development in my spare time. I just wish I had that creativity the whole time.
I’m a person who needs to be constantly thinking of ideas and trying things, that's when I’m at my happiest
Definitely start applying. When I’ve gotten to this point in my software career before just knowing I wasn’t trapped made me feel much better.
I don’t know how deep you are in your career, but I’m at 20+ years and I’ve felt like this at least 4 or 5 times. I’ve never actually switched companies, but I’ve switched job’s within my company 3-8 times spring depending on how you want to measure a job switch.
I don’t know how deep you are in your career, but I’m at 20+ years and I’ve felt like this at least 4 or 5 times. I’ve never actually switched companies, but I’ve switched job’s within my company 3-8 times spring depending on how you want to measure a job switch.
I still love software but I couldn't care less about agile, design docs, promos, PIPs, management BS.
As in, I cannot care about the low value management BS that is eating my precious time on this planet.
As in, I cannot care about the low value management BS that is eating my precious time on this planet.
Consider firmware development, if you can get your foot in that door. You’d work on a product rather than a website or service. It might be a different enough experience to keep you sane.
A break and then a job switch might be what are you are looking for. The problem is you can't usually line up a job for "in 3-6 months time" and you have to have the finances sorted ahead of time.
That's like asking someone "What's going to be my favorite color?"
Only you can answer that.
Only you can answer that.
Even him can not answer it
Blue! No Yelllloooooooooowwwwwwww......
Find a new job.
My job has hard problems, chill people, and I care a lot about that we build.
We do have boring work and spaghetti code in places but to be honest, I unload all of that onto junior devs.
My job has hard problems, chill people, and I care a lot about that we build.
We do have boring work and spaghetti code in places but to be honest, I unload all of that onto junior devs.
Any other creative pursuit that involves some level of engineering.
Buy a 3D printer, start some woodworking/furniture stuff, learn to weld. Dig a pond and breed koi fish.
Buy a 3D printer, start some woodworking/furniture stuff, learn to weld. Dig a pond and breed koi fish.
I really like your ideas actually
I'm looking around for a career change. It sucks more if you have a family to provide for since SWE is low effort for high monetary gain compared to other things.
I've switched jobs a few times in the past years as a SWE/architect and even did consulting for many years. I can't seem to recapture the enjoyment I had at the beginning (back in the 2000s), it's kinda all the same now. I'm also tired of stand-ups, Groundhog Day "retros" and generally appearing to be interested. I think the whole cloud thing has taken the fun out of coding for me in the last twelve or so years.
Also, if JIRA was a face, I'd fucking punch it.
Thought of teaching maths or computing. I love that shit, but society doesn't value that as it pays so little.
Seriously thinking about becoming a paramedic, maybe a coroner/ME... time is running out though. Getting old.
Edit: Also maybe a govt. IT job. It's less, but maybe the benefits are enough to balance out. Would be cool to fix up some crumby govt. software.
I've switched jobs a few times in the past years as a SWE/architect and even did consulting for many years. I can't seem to recapture the enjoyment I had at the beginning (back in the 2000s), it's kinda all the same now. I'm also tired of stand-ups, Groundhog Day "retros" and generally appearing to be interested. I think the whole cloud thing has taken the fun out of coding for me in the last twelve or so years.
Also, if JIRA was a face, I'd fucking punch it.
Thought of teaching maths or computing. I love that shit, but society doesn't value that as it pays so little.
Seriously thinking about becoming a paramedic, maybe a coroner/ME... time is running out though. Getting old.
Edit: Also maybe a govt. IT job. It's less, but maybe the benefits are enough to balance out. Would be cool to fix up some crumby govt. software.
> Also, if JIRA was a face, I'd fucking punch it.
I used to hate JIRA. I'm using IBM CLM these days. I miss JIRA.
I used to hate JIRA. I'm using IBM CLM these days. I miss JIRA.
You don't sound like you're necessarily tired of software programming, you're tired of web programming. (And the things that come with it - giant spaghetti messes, standups, messy tooling. True, those can happen in any kind of programming, but they seem to be more intense in web programming.)
So you might at least consider a different kind of programming - if you can figure out a way to get hired to do that.
So you might at least consider a different kind of programming - if you can figure out a way to get hired to do that.
If you've got a lot of front end experience, you could consider moving into design. That's what I did, and for similar reasons. You do have to pretend to care about what you're building, but that's probably going to be something you have to deal with any time you're working for someone else (or even for yourself, frankly).
The other thing to consider is just letting this industry break your spirit. Only half joking—what's true is that a lot of the problem you have is in the expectations. If you want an authentic, intellectually satisfying experience where you only work on interesting things and don't have to put up with a bunch of bullshit every day, I agree that you're in the wrong business. But, I don't know where to refer you; I don't know of a job where those things aren't a problem. And the money and benefits of this job are pretty good, and you even get to work inside, out of the rain. So, you could just put in your time and live for the other 16 hours a day when you're not working (more if you can swing it). This is how people have gotten through life for thousands of years.
The other thing to consider is just letting this industry break your spirit. Only half joking—what's true is that a lot of the problem you have is in the expectations. If you want an authentic, intellectually satisfying experience where you only work on interesting things and don't have to put up with a bunch of bullshit every day, I agree that you're in the wrong business. But, I don't know where to refer you; I don't know of a job where those things aren't a problem. And the money and benefits of this job are pretty good, and you even get to work inside, out of the rain. So, you could just put in your time and live for the other 16 hours a day when you're not working (more if you can swing it). This is how people have gotten through life for thousands of years.
Try farming. The world needs more farmers and less industrial farms.
Or medicine. More bureaucracy, but perhaps more intrinsically rewarding.
Or medicine. More bureaucracy, but perhaps more intrinsically rewarding.
> I don’t care about what we are building
I don't switch jobs much, but this is when I do. If I don't care about it, and I'm tired of the org and its practices, and the system is stuck in some way, I have to bounce. I'll just drag myself and the team/project/org down because my paycheck will only buy so much caring from me. We'll all be better off if I'm somewhere more satisfying and they fill my slot with someone who can muster more care.
The system I'm on now is important (to a lot of people, though not everyone) so my frustrations with it (tech debt, lack of proper sustainment over the years, poor project management) are things I can get past because I care enough to also tackle them and help improve all of those issues. If it was an unimportant web app, I'd probably be gone by now with the quality of this system overall.
So what qualities of a system would make you care enough to get past your other frustrations (which will exist on almost any project in almost any org with almost any team, to some extent at least).
I don't switch jobs much, but this is when I do. If I don't care about it, and I'm tired of the org and its practices, and the system is stuck in some way, I have to bounce. I'll just drag myself and the team/project/org down because my paycheck will only buy so much caring from me. We'll all be better off if I'm somewhere more satisfying and they fill my slot with someone who can muster more care.
The system I'm on now is important (to a lot of people, though not everyone) so my frustrations with it (tech debt, lack of proper sustainment over the years, poor project management) are things I can get past because I care enough to also tackle them and help improve all of those issues. If it was an unimportant web app, I'd probably be gone by now with the quality of this system overall.
So what qualities of a system would make you care enough to get past your other frustrations (which will exist on almost any project in almost any org with almost any team, to some extent at least).
> I'll just drag myself and the team/project/org down
I wish everyone had this much self awareness. Some people just hold on for dear life to collect a paycheck. I get it, people have a family and bills to pay, but at least use the slack time to find another job.
I wish everyone had this much self awareness. Some people just hold on for dear life to collect a paycheck. I get it, people have a family and bills to pay, but at least use the slack time to find another job.
> I wish everyone had this much self awareness.
Thanks, it didn't come easy. A few personal, professional, and academic failures before I got there myself. The last straw was when I realized I was the toxic asshole at a job. Lots of problems, my concerns were real, but my reaction was not helpful for anyone. I bounced and gave myself a mental reset and have been more deliberate about it since then.
Thanks, it didn't come easy. A few personal, professional, and academic failures before I got there myself. The last straw was when I realized I was the toxic asshole at a job. Lots of problems, my concerns were real, but my reaction was not helpful for anyone. I bounced and gave myself a mental reset and have been more deliberate about it since then.
>> The last straw was when I realized I was the toxic asshole at a job
It takes a lot of experience, wisdom and courage to accept and fix that. What other factors do you think helped you fix it? Financial security which allows one to take breaks or top notch in demand skills that helps one find a new job quickly come to mind, but it could something non-material and I am interested in hearing that. Thanks for sharing your journey.
It takes a lot of experience, wisdom and courage to accept and fix that. What other factors do you think helped you fix it? Financial security which allows one to take breaks or top notch in demand skills that helps one find a new job quickly come to mind, but it could something non-material and I am interested in hearing that. Thanks for sharing your journey.
It's been a busy day, so I'll say that after that the main thing that helped me was finally accepting I have issues with anxiety and doing something about it. Things that most people would consider small get blown out of proportion in my head (or can). And many small things become insurmountable to me, or excessively frustrating. Cognitive behavioral therapy, in particular, helped me a lot with dealing with it. I still have anxiety issues, but now I see it coming and react in better and more effective ways than becoming burnt out, frustrated, depressed, toxic, or whatever else I had done prior to that.
I'm sorry but it's incredibly difficult to find such a job. My work history isn't long, but out of all companies I've worked for, all of them sucked in their own, unique ways. Currently I'm at a company that's moving away from coding towards having meetings over processes, and honestly, the pay is good while expectations are low, which allows me to just cruise.
The problem is once I'm deep into a certain job all recruiters assume that I should continue working on this type of job. It's extremely difficult to switch career.
Nice rant. Go watch “Office Space” that will tell you what to do, and no it’s not burn it all down.
> Go watch “Office Space” that will tell you what to do, and no it’s not burn it all down.
Last thing the poor fella wants to consider at this point is "burn-down charts".
Last thing the poor fella wants to consider at this point is "burn-down charts".
Tell the consultants you come in late through the back door and only work just hard enough to get fired?
Haha Office Space is a real feeling
I love how at the end of Office Space, Peter goes to work construction. The shift from IT work to home building perfectly prefigured the 00s economy. Talk about life imitating art.
If the OP does end up making a career change, keep us updated so we can place some bets.
In all seriousness, I hope the OP can find satisfaction in their work... somewhere.
If the OP does end up making a career change, keep us updated so we can place some bets.
In all seriousness, I hope the OP can find satisfaction in their work... somewhere.
So far the winning “career” in this thread that made me excited was carpentry. Working with my hands! Otherwise I’d love to be a forest ranger or conservationist, but alas I have to wait for a double hip replacement lol
HR asked us for a favorite movie around 2002 (Office Space came out in 1999 along with the Matrix funny enough) I divulged my love for Office Space which I’m sure led to me being labeled a rebel. So be it.
I'm probably projecting here, but I wonder if you're having a bit of an existential crisis. I.e., "Why am I even doing this? It's ultimately not important."
I don't really have any advice on the matter. I just thought it might be help you locate the kernel of your discontent.
I don't really have any advice on the matter. I just thought it might be help you locate the kernel of your discontent.
Probably. I’m of that age that you have a quarter-life crisis lol. I will have to dig deeper
I'm in the same boat. It seems very common for people to feel burnt out in their careers after the first 5-10 years. Trouble is that the economy seems so intimidating right now.
The tragedy of middle-aged invisible family men. I provided some raw materials and ChatGPT wrote it.
They've got some money, but debts weigh them down, A ledger of losses in a life nearly drowned. They cherish their family, yet silence prevails, Words left unspoken, love hidden behind veils.
Their wives look away, where passion once burned, Cold beds and long nights where affection's adjourned. Their children reach out, but only for gold, A transaction of love that's grown bitter and old.
They enter the office with silence in tow, Leaving with burdens only they know. They rage at the world, but keep it inside, A secret despair, in shadows they hide.
Life is a balance of wants and regret, A dance in the dark, with a past they forget. They carry on, in the weight of their plight, Hoping for dawn in an endless night.
They've got some money, but debts weigh them down, A ledger of losses in a life nearly drowned. They cherish their family, yet silence prevails, Words left unspoken, love hidden behind veils.
Their wives look away, where passion once burned, Cold beds and long nights where affection's adjourned. Their children reach out, but only for gold, A transaction of love that's grown bitter and old.
They enter the office with silence in tow, Leaving with burdens only they know. They rage at the world, but keep it inside, A secret despair, in shadows they hide.
Life is a balance of wants and regret, A dance in the dark, with a past they forget. They carry on, in the weight of their plight, Hoping for dawn in an endless night.
Hear me out. Find a back end job in a stable non-startup. The rate of tech change is so much more reasonable.
Ya, I'm in a similar situation. I burn out every 1-2 years. This time I'm finding that I may be autistic/neurodivergent. The equation is very different for me and I have to start approaching it a bit differently what I look for in a (dev) job. The advice I've read in these sort of threads don't always resonate with me; we are all different kinds of people. Some people are much more tolerant of the vast sea of grindy dev jobs. There's gotta be something more interesting out there, the harder "more interesting" problems that are worth spending 30+hrs a week on. Leave the basic stuff for the basic people and everybody can be happy.
Joining a neurodivergent support group has been great; meet some similar minds.
Joining a neurodivergent support group has been great; meet some similar minds.
This is the talk you must watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxZuzDKoI0
"Pushing through friction" by Dan Na.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxZuzDKoI0
"Pushing through friction" by Dan Na.
Some options:
* Move to a frontend job that is less chaotic. RoR jobs are relatively easy to find and some codebases are quite tidy. Plus, the framework moves slowly and there is little JS.
* Move to a backend job that uses an interesting technology, like Erlang, OCaml or Haskell. These technologies will provide some stimulation due to elegance and novelty.
* Pivot to a job in a different domain. Consider academic, industrial and national laboratories where you can leverage your coding experience.
* Move to a frontend job that is less chaotic. RoR jobs are relatively easy to find and some codebases are quite tidy. Plus, the framework moves slowly and there is little JS.
* Move to a backend job that uses an interesting technology, like Erlang, OCaml or Haskell. These technologies will provide some stimulation due to elegance and novelty.
* Pivot to a job in a different domain. Consider academic, industrial and national laboratories where you can leverage your coding experience.
Erlang and Elixir project organization can be a spaghetti mess too. You can construct spaghetti out of anything that has relationships in it.
And in the functional world, there are people with awful egos due to the connection with academia. In many areas of academia, engineering best practices and tooling are mostly irrelevant.
And in the functional world, there are people with awful egos due to the connection with academia. In many areas of academia, engineering best practices and tooling are mostly irrelevant.
"RoR jobs are relatively easy to find"
Not my experience, so do tell! Any sources, where should I look?
Not my experience, so do tell! Any sources, where should I look?
Yeah, this was certainly true about 5 years ago. The market has thinned a lot over the last few years.
I’ve also been thinking about embedded and firmware. I have an EE degree so could do that if I re-read some stuff.
Firmware programming seems neat, I enjoy C programming as you really have to think to do anything
Firmware programming seems neat, I enjoy C programming as you really have to think to do anything
I was in your position with web development and went back to uni to get a mechanical engineering degree. Started at 38 and graduated at 42. I’ve been working at it for 10 years now and specialise in designing data centres funnily enough. There’s much less ageism in “physical” engineering work which is positive but I also took a very large hit in seniority and compensation to switch. In hindsight, moving sideways into non-web development may have been a good option too but in the end it all comes down to what you find fulfilling. I’m more proud that I’ve helped build things that last like children’s hospitals and geothermal heating for local swimming pools. Sounds like taking a break first may be a good idea. Good luck!
This was my plan too, until I realized I'd start at 40 and finish at like 45 or 46. Would any company/engineering firm hire a mid-life intern with no engineering experience?
Absolutely. There was a student in his 50’s in my graduating year who was an aviation mechanic previously. There’s also a lot of opportunities at engineering firms for developers. Start that way and see if you like it maybe.
That's good to know, thank you! It's a dream I hope to pursue someday soon...
I didn't know engineering firms hired developers (what for? CAD stuff, or...?) That's a great idea, though.
I didn't know engineering firms hired developers (what for? CAD stuff, or...?) That's a great idea, though.
It's a great way to get started if you're already a developer. Here's some of the stuff my company is doing in the digital space:
https://www.aurecongroup.com/expertise/digital-engineering-a...
They like to showcase the visualisation and AI stuff but there's also a lot of development doing stuff like parametric modelling plus everyday CRUD apps for internal systems etc.
They like to showcase the visualisation and AI stuff but there's also a lot of development doing stuff like parametric modelling plus everyday CRUD apps for internal systems etc.
Not just that but, if you need to finance that degree, you need to also consider how long you're going to be paying it off.
Fair point. I did my mech eng degree in Australia where university is heavily subsidised for citizens. Total cost for the 4 year degree here was $32,000 (roughly $21,560USD at today’s exchange rate)
Maybe this will be a balm to the soul:
Repair and remain (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41226039 - 6 days ago (250 comments)
Repair and remain (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41226039 - 6 days ago (250 comments)
I have been there before. Let me tell you, changing jobs is a lot easier than changing careers. And internal transfer is easier than changing jobs. Try an internal transfer to something with growth opportunity. If that doesn’t work, try changing jobs. I’d only change career if you have thoroughly weighed my options though.
> Let me tell you, changing jobs is a lot easier than changing careers.
Is that still true? Tech interviews have reached an unprecedented level of crazy the past few years.
Is that still true? Tech interviews have reached an unprecedented level of crazy the past few years.
I guess it’s technically easier to interview at Taco Bell. But I assume usually changing careers requires some kind of certification.
I frequently think about the Neofetch dev who archived everything on Github and just put “Have taken up farming.” It just feels like he escaped the Matrix.
https://github.com/dylanaraps
https://github.com/dylanaraps
Knee-jerk reaction: change jobs.
Slightly longer reaction: find out what the actual problem is, get more context (you got any dependants?), are you in a position to trial-and-error? Is the job the problem or is it multiperson work that is the issue?
Slightly longer reaction: find out what the actual problem is, get more context (you got any dependants?), are you in a position to trial-and-error? Is the job the problem or is it multiperson work that is the issue?
people you like or admire, what do they do?
not OP, but I'm about to graduate (I have some previous experience though) and already tired of this industry, mostly due to the intense competition for juniors. I feel like I'm already burned out.
The problem for me is that the people I like or admire have jobs that seem completely unattainable. I have considered product management, but that's not something you can just get into straight out of school (as far as I'm aware) and it appears to be just as competitive as software.
Musicians, film/TV directors, Youtubers (e.g. Tom Scott), writers, historians, game directors (Masahiro Sakurai is a favorite of mine), indie hackers, indie gamedevs.
In other words: creative, somewhat independent people whose jobs are one in a million.
Unfortunately I don't have any financial safety net to pursue any of these dreams, so I'd appreciate guidance or advice in building a career that pays the bills and is at least somewhat enjoyable to me.
The problem for me is that the people I like or admire have jobs that seem completely unattainable. I have considered product management, but that's not something you can just get into straight out of school (as far as I'm aware) and it appears to be just as competitive as software.
Musicians, film/TV directors, Youtubers (e.g. Tom Scott), writers, historians, game directors (Masahiro Sakurai is a favorite of mine), indie hackers, indie gamedevs.
In other words: creative, somewhat independent people whose jobs are one in a million.
Unfortunately I don't have any financial safety net to pursue any of these dreams, so I'd appreciate guidance or advice in building a career that pays the bills and is at least somewhat enjoyable to me.
Is there any market or industry that you would like to work in? Like the domain itself is interesting to work in?
I thought I really enjoyed startups, because I spend most of my spare time thinking of ideas. And I’m really good at turning ideas into something and convincing others what I’m building is good. But there too is minutiae.
I think working on my own programming language would be awesome. I think it’s the web I take issue with, tedious frontend designs, shitty spaghetti code mixed with view logic.
I really enjoy nature and the outdoors, but have arthritic hips(im not even 30 lol) so that limits me a bit! Otherwise I probably would be a forest ranger :)
I like helping people as well, my favourite part of my current role has been helping the junior engineer and pair-programming with them
I think working on my own programming language would be awesome. I think it’s the web I take issue with, tedious frontend designs, shitty spaghetti code mixed with view logic.
I really enjoy nature and the outdoors, but have arthritic hips(im not even 30 lol) so that limits me a bit! Otherwise I probably would be a forest ranger :)
I like helping people as well, my favourite part of my current role has been helping the junior engineer and pair-programming with them
"... and I don’t care about what we are building."
I find this is the main culprit behind most career dissatisfaction. Spending 8+ hours a day working to build and support something you don't care about is a recipe for being unhappy.
I've turned down jobs that were more lucrative for jobs that I felt more personally compelled to participate in, because I felt the impact of the work would be more beneficial. On tough days, it's a pretty good motivator to keep my chin up.
If you enjoy software development, then finding a more personally compelling job might be the right call. If you truly don't like the process, outside of your current environment/employer, I'd say life is too short to spend it doing something you don't enjoy.
I find this is the main culprit behind most career dissatisfaction. Spending 8+ hours a day working to build and support something you don't care about is a recipe for being unhappy.
I've turned down jobs that were more lucrative for jobs that I felt more personally compelled to participate in, because I felt the impact of the work would be more beneficial. On tough days, it's a pretty good motivator to keep my chin up.
If you enjoy software development, then finding a more personally compelling job might be the right call. If you truly don't like the process, outside of your current environment/employer, I'd say life is too short to spend it doing something you don't enjoy.
I think it’s the case. Perhaps I do need something more compelling. I’d love be building solutions that people can self-host. Power to the people type stuff
Your mile may vary but I wouldn't advise looking for new jobs at the moment[0]. The current job market is a dumpster fire so recruiters and hiring managers are on their absolute worst behavior right now. If the money's good and especially if you're fully remote, I'd say just do whatever you have to do to keep the job and focus on building another source of income independently of your job. The long term goal being to eventually end your dependence upon employers. At least that's my career goal that I'm trying to work towards. If you do it that way and especially if you keep your expenses low, you can have a soft landing instead of being forced to uproot your entire life to get out.
If you've already got significant savings, you can either use the runway to launch your own startup or even just buy an already profitable business that makes enough money to pay for your living expenses.
I'm not sure I'd suggest switching to a different job if you hate all of the bullshit around corporate programming because you'll probably hate all of the bullshit around whatever other job you pivot into as well. If you own the company, you can choose to just not do all of that agile/waterfall/scrum/whatever bullshit and to build whatever you want built assuming you can make enough revenue or investor funding from it to make it financially viable.
[0]: If you truly hate your job and/or insist on looking anyway, I'd recommend looking until you burn out on job interviews and dealing with the rampant spam and fake jobs polluting the job boards. If you get an offer worth accepting before that, that means you've won the lottery. If you don't, stop your search until the market improves or you feel like trying it again. My own experience being forced into a job search in this market against my will[1] has strengthened my own resolve to get the hell out of employment so that I don't ever have to deal with job interviews ever again.
[1]: Specifically, I was laid off from a great job that I was very happy at where there was very minimal corporate bullshit to worry about because their client cancelled a project that I was supposed to be working on. The company didn't have anything else for me to do.
If you've already got significant savings, you can either use the runway to launch your own startup or even just buy an already profitable business that makes enough money to pay for your living expenses.
I'm not sure I'd suggest switching to a different job if you hate all of the bullshit around corporate programming because you'll probably hate all of the bullshit around whatever other job you pivot into as well. If you own the company, you can choose to just not do all of that agile/waterfall/scrum/whatever bullshit and to build whatever you want built assuming you can make enough revenue or investor funding from it to make it financially viable.
[0]: If you truly hate your job and/or insist on looking anyway, I'd recommend looking until you burn out on job interviews and dealing with the rampant spam and fake jobs polluting the job boards. If you get an offer worth accepting before that, that means you've won the lottery. If you don't, stop your search until the market improves or you feel like trying it again. My own experience being forced into a job search in this market against my will[1] has strengthened my own resolve to get the hell out of employment so that I don't ever have to deal with job interviews ever again.
[1]: Specifically, I was laid off from a great job that I was very happy at where there was very minimal corporate bullshit to worry about because their client cancelled a project that I was supposed to be working on. The company didn't have anything else for me to do.
What's your plan for independence? I am thinking of doing the same but I am slightly worried that it may get worse than regular employment at some point.
I'm also a fullstack developer.
There's a ton of questions here we can't answer for you. Some places you might start:
1. Start living frugally. Most people "live up to their income". This creates the impression that you're trapped, because you have to keep making the same amount of money or more. But this isn't the case. If you're making an average fullstack developer salary you can live on a fraction of your income. That can give you a lot of options such as "take a job that pays less" or "take some unpaid time off" or in the long run simply "retire early".
2. In a similar vein, eliminate debt and any other obligatory monthly expenses you can. This especially includes housing expenses--if you can downsize to own a home outright, do that. Not having regular expenses means you don't need regular income.
3. Share your feelings with any relevant stakeholders in your life: your spouse if you're married, your kids. Any solutions you look for are going to have to include them so it makes sense to start collaborating with them on those solutions. Hint: Your boss isn't one of these people, even if they legitimately are your friend.
4. Talk to a therapist. Just as it's valuable to have input from stakeholders in your life, it's valuable to have input from outsiders who have no stake in what you do and can look at this more objectively. Additionally, if you're like me, you spent a lot of time learning about computers and science and math and other academic pursuits, and never spent any time intentionally learning emotional skills. In the same way you might seek a class organized by a teacher to learn a new programming language, you can seek out someone to learn emotional skills.
5. Try new things. Things outside your career and outside of your comfort zone. Things that are the opposite of what you're doing that you don't like--things that are unprofitable, physical, or outdoors. I think part of the problem with a lot of software folks is that they get stuck doing what they don't want because they never figure out what they do want. It may be that you don't know what you want to do because you haven't tried it yet.
I think pretty fundamentally, a lot of us got into this career because we thought it would make us happy. At this point, I simply don't believe happiness comes from a job for most people. Some people enjoy what they do for a living, but fundamentally it's the thing they're doing, not the fact that it's their job, that brings them happiness.
For me what the last few years have looked like is: stopping drinking, getting medicated for ADHD in a way that's geared toward making my life better not making me more productive (meaning, non-stimulant), diving deep into rock climbing which gets me physically active and outdoors, moving into a van (which is paid off) to remove all housing expenses, and doing fullstack development freelance so I have ample chances to take unpaid time off. I make less money, but I make more than I need. I'm working on some esoteric programming projects that have gotten me back to the things I liked about programming in the first place. I don't feel like I'm where I want to be, but at this point that feels hopeful, like I have goals I'm making progress toward.
Your answer probably doesn't look like mine, but don't be afraid to dream of something equally as outlandish-sounding if it sounds appealing; the reasons you feel like you can't do something may be less critical than you think.
There's a ton of questions here we can't answer for you. Some places you might start:
1. Start living frugally. Most people "live up to their income". This creates the impression that you're trapped, because you have to keep making the same amount of money or more. But this isn't the case. If you're making an average fullstack developer salary you can live on a fraction of your income. That can give you a lot of options such as "take a job that pays less" or "take some unpaid time off" or in the long run simply "retire early".
2. In a similar vein, eliminate debt and any other obligatory monthly expenses you can. This especially includes housing expenses--if you can downsize to own a home outright, do that. Not having regular expenses means you don't need regular income.
3. Share your feelings with any relevant stakeholders in your life: your spouse if you're married, your kids. Any solutions you look for are going to have to include them so it makes sense to start collaborating with them on those solutions. Hint: Your boss isn't one of these people, even if they legitimately are your friend.
4. Talk to a therapist. Just as it's valuable to have input from stakeholders in your life, it's valuable to have input from outsiders who have no stake in what you do and can look at this more objectively. Additionally, if you're like me, you spent a lot of time learning about computers and science and math and other academic pursuits, and never spent any time intentionally learning emotional skills. In the same way you might seek a class organized by a teacher to learn a new programming language, you can seek out someone to learn emotional skills.
5. Try new things. Things outside your career and outside of your comfort zone. Things that are the opposite of what you're doing that you don't like--things that are unprofitable, physical, or outdoors. I think part of the problem with a lot of software folks is that they get stuck doing what they don't want because they never figure out what they do want. It may be that you don't know what you want to do because you haven't tried it yet.
I think pretty fundamentally, a lot of us got into this career because we thought it would make us happy. At this point, I simply don't believe happiness comes from a job for most people. Some people enjoy what they do for a living, but fundamentally it's the thing they're doing, not the fact that it's their job, that brings them happiness.
For me what the last few years have looked like is: stopping drinking, getting medicated for ADHD in a way that's geared toward making my life better not making me more productive (meaning, non-stimulant), diving deep into rock climbing which gets me physically active and outdoors, moving into a van (which is paid off) to remove all housing expenses, and doing fullstack development freelance so I have ample chances to take unpaid time off. I make less money, but I make more than I need. I'm working on some esoteric programming projects that have gotten me back to the things I liked about programming in the first place. I don't feel like I'm where I want to be, but at this point that feels hopeful, like I have goals I'm making progress toward.
Your answer probably doesn't look like mine, but don't be afraid to dream of something equally as outlandish-sounding if it sounds appealing; the reasons you feel like you can't do something may be less critical than you think.
I was surprised by the number of science grad students I knew who were into This Old House. The dream of applying your expertise in a short time frame with tangible results.
I want to re-educate myself and combat climate change. Non-profit or maybe politics. Need a big pile of cash first so I can disregard the looming threat of ever lacking money.
been there - only way out is to start your own company.
I don't think you can fix burn out with new responsibilities and challenges. At least it didn't work for me.
Before you will make any significant changes in your life I highly recommend to take long vacations. It depends how severe the burn out is. Maybe you need 2 weeks, maybe 1 month, maybe 2 months will help.
Before you will make any significant changes in your life I highly recommend to take long vacations. It depends how severe the burn out is. Maybe you need 2 weeks, maybe 1 month, maybe 2 months will help.
>Tired of software
Why not hardware?
Why not hardware?
It was the stress and oft-time futility of debuggery that drove me from software development to technical communications. I could interview developers without having to walk a mile in their moccasins. I wasn't writing poetry, but I wasn't writing octal either.
[deleted]
>Is it time to move jobs, or time to move careers?
Split the difference and try a new stack/specialty.
I remember being burnt out and tired of all the shit and I decided to try a new stack/language and development got fun again. Then, I was able to get to company that also treated folks better. It didn't happen over night, but it really made me happier and in the long run I ended up making a lot more money.
If you can hang on for a while longer, try transitioning to a backend stack, to data engineering, to data science, to something else. Maybe even just doing full stack with a different framework at a better company.
Split the difference and try a new stack/specialty.
I remember being burnt out and tired of all the shit and I decided to try a new stack/language and development got fun again. Then, I was able to get to company that also treated folks better. It didn't happen over night, but it really made me happier and in the long run I ended up making a lot more money.
If you can hang on for a while longer, try transitioning to a backend stack, to data engineering, to data science, to something else. Maybe even just doing full stack with a different framework at a better company.
I think there are lots of us having the same questions. I'm at a point in my life where I just can't stand it anymore (after 25 years).
I'm thinking about doing something completely different for a while, even if it pays a whole lot less, hoping that this somehow rekindles the fire for software development...
It may be helpful to consider the matter from the lens of 'what is my core competency'. I had similar existential questions recently, and pursued an MBA to that end (after realising that I enjoyed analysing people behaviour in companies and thought that might translate into a management career). By the end of it, I realised that I was simply able to 'do' the job of a dev much more naturally than becoming a manager. At that stage, the problem changed from 'what do I want to do' to 'what can I actually do'.
I'm sure you are capable of switching careers and skillsets more successfully than I was, but for me, metaphorically speaking, after peering over the hedge, I came to be content with the color of the grass on my own side.
I'm sure you are capable of switching careers and skillsets more successfully than I was, but for me, metaphorically speaking, after peering over the hedge, I came to be content with the color of the grass on my own side.
agile & scrum = burn out developers
I went through the same thing last few years. Ended up joining a venture capital firm as a technical researcher and love it.
I focus on crypto most of the time, and sometimes robotics, AI or developer tooling. I mostly talk to startups about their tech and do due diligence to make sure they know what they're doing.
I read a lot of whitepapers and go to technical discussions at conferences to know where the industry is going to see where we should be investing.
I focus on crypto most of the time, and sometimes robotics, AI or developer tooling. I mostly talk to startups about their tech and do due diligence to make sure they know what they're doing.
I read a lot of whitepapers and go to technical discussions at conferences to know where the industry is going to see where we should be investing.
Into 10 years into the career, I have found that in the end its all about the people.
Most of the comapanies suck making life easier for software developlemt, with useless standups, lack of documentation, proper testing, quick tasks, and on top of it micromanagement, un-productive meetings and with no foucs on culture. To me, all this energy drainging activities.
It is hard to find the real joy for the job, in such cases.
I've found over the years that doing software engineering is fun, but being a software engineer is not. Especially the song and dance of trying to get hired.
In companies there is often a lack of leadership, organization, communication, honesty, and skill. I became a software developer because I like building things in Rails, so that's what I am focusing on.
For you, I would highlight that there are other languages/frameworks out there which might help with your tooling woes - but everything else is the state of the industry.
In companies there is often a lack of leadership, organization, communication, honesty, and skill. I became a software developer because I like building things in Rails, so that's what I am focusing on.
For you, I would highlight that there are other languages/frameworks out there which might help with your tooling woes - but everything else is the state of the industry.
Maybe consider indie hacking? It's still software but way more exciting, more ownership, etc. And the upside if you're very successful is that you'll have free time to do anything else.
I’m sick of the mess of tooling, of the colleagues who code these giant spaghetti messes, I’m tired of standups. I’m tired of the codebase, and I don’t care about what we are building.
But most or all I’m tired of all the minutiae. I just feel like what we are working on, and how we are doing it, is boring as hell. There’s no intellectual stimulation.
Is it time to move jobs, or time to move careers?
What other careers are good for burnt out developers?