The AI startup drama that's damaging Y Combinator's reputation(indiehackers.com)
indiehackers.com
The AI startup drama that's damaging Y Combinator's reputation
https://www.indiehackers.com/post/starting-up/the-ai-startup-drama-thats-damaging-y-combinator-s-reputation-GQKuTmpGV2uWOCoxtHBn
55 comments
We moderate less, not more, when a story involves YC or a YC startup. This is pretty much the #1 rule of HN moderation. I've posted about it many times over 10 years: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....
"Less" doesn't mean "we don't moderate at all"—that would be too big a loophole. "Less" means "do what we normally would, but not as much". That way we can keep the front page reasonably close to the site mandate while still having a consistent approach to conflicts of interest.
For example, if a story is the kind of thing we'd normally downweight off the front page (e.g. because it's a typical opinion piece or drama that isn't intellectually interesting), then "do what we normally would, only less" might mean that the article ends up halfway down the frontpage, whereas normally we'd downrank it off the frontpage altogether.
This approach goes back to the first morning that pg was showing me how he moderated HN and it was literally the first thing he said to me, before I had a chance to grab a chair. He kind of barked it actually - 'whatever you do, don't do that!'
10 years later, it has held up well: it's a simple rule, easy to be both transparent and consistent about, that addresses one of the hardest aspects of running a site like HN. It doesn't work perfectly (nothing on HN can work perfectly, for the simple reason that different segments of the community want different things) but I find it hard to imagine a better tradeoff.
This doesn't stop people from jumping to inaccurate conclusions (such as "HN mods suppress bad stories about YC" when in fact we do the opposite), but it does mean we can answer questions in good conscience, which is vital not only to community goodwill but also our own morale.
"Less" doesn't mean "we don't moderate at all"—that would be too big a loophole. "Less" means "do what we normally would, but not as much". That way we can keep the front page reasonably close to the site mandate while still having a consistent approach to conflicts of interest.
For example, if a story is the kind of thing we'd normally downweight off the front page (e.g. because it's a typical opinion piece or drama that isn't intellectually interesting), then "do what we normally would, only less" might mean that the article ends up halfway down the frontpage, whereas normally we'd downrank it off the frontpage altogether.
This approach goes back to the first morning that pg was showing me how he moderated HN and it was literally the first thing he said to me, before I had a chance to grab a chair. He kind of barked it actually - 'whatever you do, don't do that!'
10 years later, it has held up well: it's a simple rule, easy to be both transparent and consistent about, that addresses one of the hardest aspects of running a site like HN. It doesn't work perfectly (nothing on HN can work perfectly, for the simple reason that different segments of the community want different things) but I find it hard to imagine a better tradeoff.
This doesn't stop people from jumping to inaccurate conclusions (such as "HN mods suppress bad stories about YC" when in fact we do the opposite), but it does mean we can answer questions in good conscience, which is vital not only to community goodwill but also our own morale.
Yes, that's true. The thread reached the top of Hacker News, then disappeared. I had to use HN Algolia to find it again.
The thread reached the top of Hacker News, then went to #15. It spent 5 hours on the front page, which is a lot longer than it would have if the topic hadn't been YC-related. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41732846 for more.
The article only states that the post was deliberately lowered in the rankings to reduce its visibility. "Is this true" ? What your explanation is hinting at, although you're not saying it outright, is that "Yes, that's true." The graph posted below speaks for itself.
If you (or anyone) wants an accurate view, you can't just look at one graph. You need to take into account that moderators are downranking stories on HN all the time. HN is a curated site (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). If we weren't downranking stories all the time, the frontpage would be completely different—like a garden when there are no gardeners weeding it. The site would basically be all drama, all the time.
That article was of the type that we'd normally downweight off the front page, since it wasn't substantive or intellectually interesting in the way that the site mandate calls for. Since it was about YC, though, we cut the amount of downweight. The post went from #1 to #15 instead of (say) #55 or whatever. #15 on HN's front page is far from "disappeared". It's still a prominent position, and the post continued to receive a lot of attention and traffic that it otherwise would not have.
> What your explanation is hinting at, although you're not saying it outright, is that "Yes, that's true."
I wouldn't say so. The reason for downweighting the post was that it wasn't a good article for HN. The reason for downweighting the post less was that it was about YC. You can call that "deliberately lowered in the rankings" but it's equally true to say "deliberately heightened in the rankings". It depends on which baseline you're comparing to. Relative to the baseline of standard practice on HN, the post was heightened, not lowered.
Is that clearer? I'm not asking you (or anyone) to agree with, like, or approve of how we moderate HN but I would like the details to be understood.
That article was of the type that we'd normally downweight off the front page, since it wasn't substantive or intellectually interesting in the way that the site mandate calls for. Since it was about YC, though, we cut the amount of downweight. The post went from #1 to #15 instead of (say) #55 or whatever. #15 on HN's front page is far from "disappeared". It's still a prominent position, and the post continued to receive a lot of attention and traffic that it otherwise would not have.
> What your explanation is hinting at, although you're not saying it outright, is that "Yes, that's true."
I wouldn't say so. The reason for downweighting the post was that it wasn't a good article for HN. The reason for downweighting the post less was that it was about YC. You can call that "deliberately lowered in the rankings" but it's equally true to say "deliberately heightened in the rankings". It depends on which baseline you're comparing to. Relative to the baseline of standard practice on HN, the post was heightened, not lowered.
Is that clearer? I'm not asking you (or anyone) to agree with, like, or approve of how we moderate HN but I would like the details to be understood.
decide for yourself
https://hnrankings.info/41697032/
this happens very, very frequently
https://hnrankings.info/41697032/
this happens very, very frequently
Really not to sure which direction you're going with "this happens very, very frequently".
Like the CA admissions thread wasn't on the frontpage initially for under 24h and it had 3x the comments as the YC thread. https://hnrankings.info/41697032,41700516/
Like the CA admissions thread wasn't on the frontpage initially for under 24h and it had 3x the comments as the YC thread. https://hnrankings.info/41697032,41700516/
So this shows a rapid climb and rapid fall.
I understand that articles don’t just climb due to the magnitude of upvotes, but also the velocity or upvote rate.
All kinds of articles don’t stick to the top, to me the more likely explanation is that the rate of upvotes was not sustained.
I understand that articles don’t just climb due to the magnitude of upvotes, but also the velocity or upvote rate.
All kinds of articles don’t stick to the top, to me the more likely explanation is that the rate of upvotes was not sustained.
The current top post has been in that position for >8 hours.
With both fewer upvotes and comments.
https://hnrankings.info/41721668/
8 of the current top 10 stories have been on the front page for longer than the submission that is critical of ycombinator and every single one of them has vastly fewer upvotes and comments. It's not even close, the story that is currently in position 6 has 1/4th the upvotes and 1/10th the comments. It has been on the front page since its submission.
https://hnrankings.info/41721318/
It's been on the front page for 11 hours.
It is impossible for the velocity, given any reasonable common sense examination, for the upvotes on that post to be greater than the story that was nuked after 2 hours.
There is no submission on the front page, some of which have been on the front page for over 24 hours, that has more upvotes, comments, or any conceivable rate of upvoting or commenting that even approaches 1/10th of the nuked story.
There is one submission that has an average of four upvotes per hour.
Assuming that upvotes fall off precipitously after leaving the front page, which I would say is a safe assumption, the nuked story had an upvote rate of several hundred per hour.
There's something fishy going on and that smell isn't the strong odor given off by Salt Water Dimmers, a submission to a barren wikipedia page about an obsolete technology with 13 upvotes and 5 comments that debuted on the front page, and has been there for several hours.
I'm not joking. On the front page of HN for several hours is a link to a 200-word wikipedia article about dimmers used in stage productions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41687950
For what it's worth, stories about Boom (a ycombinator joint) SEEM to get nuked extremely rapidly when non-VC non-techbro domain experts start chiming in about what their chances for success actually are and how there's a 50% chance they're the next OceanGate and a 50% chance they're just a scam that got way too big for its britches.
With both fewer upvotes and comments.
https://hnrankings.info/41721668/
8 of the current top 10 stories have been on the front page for longer than the submission that is critical of ycombinator and every single one of them has vastly fewer upvotes and comments. It's not even close, the story that is currently in position 6 has 1/4th the upvotes and 1/10th the comments. It has been on the front page since its submission.
https://hnrankings.info/41721318/
It's been on the front page for 11 hours.
It is impossible for the velocity, given any reasonable common sense examination, for the upvotes on that post to be greater than the story that was nuked after 2 hours.
There is no submission on the front page, some of which have been on the front page for over 24 hours, that has more upvotes, comments, or any conceivable rate of upvoting or commenting that even approaches 1/10th of the nuked story.
There is one submission that has an average of four upvotes per hour.
Assuming that upvotes fall off precipitously after leaving the front page, which I would say is a safe assumption, the nuked story had an upvote rate of several hundred per hour.
There's something fishy going on and that smell isn't the strong odor given off by Salt Water Dimmers, a submission to a barren wikipedia page about an obsolete technology with 13 upvotes and 5 comments that debuted on the front page, and has been there for several hours.
I'm not joking. On the front page of HN for several hours is a link to a 200-word wikipedia article about dimmers used in stage productions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41687950
For what it's worth, stories about Boom (a ycombinator joint) SEEM to get nuked extremely rapidly when non-VC non-techbro domain experts start chiming in about what their chances for success actually are and how there's a 50% chance they're the next OceanGate and a 50% chance they're just a scam that got way too big for its britches.
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The bias on the site is really terrible. It's not always YComb itself so much, but all the valley stuff.
As with anything you have "the powerful people" who have opinions on what critiques are "fair", and will demand them communicated with perfect decorum.
Additionally, people are aware of how it will "look". In a way they don't care, but in reality there's always an appearance people prefer to keep.
Anyway actually break out some pointy critiques, and they'll get mad.
As with anything you have "the powerful people" who have opinions on what critiques are "fair", and will demand them communicated with perfect decorum.
Additionally, people are aware of how it will "look". In a way they don't care, but in reality there's always an appearance people prefer to keep.
Anyway actually break out some pointy critiques, and they'll get mad.
dang has said on multiple occasions they don't and he has never given me any reason to doubt his integrity. Quite the opposite.
The rule is "we moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is the story". In other words, we do moderate such stories, we just do less (usually a lot less) than we would if it were a different topic. I posted a longer explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41732846 and there are 10 years' worth of similar explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....
There are a lot of HN folks here ( startups, ... )
Dang said they didn't do it and it's being flagged by users.
Which obviously makes sense of you think about it.
Dang said they didn't do it and it's being flagged by users.
Which obviously makes sense of you think about it.
The flags on hn are extremely powerful, so I don't doubt this. Just a few flags obliterate a post with tons of upvotes. It wouldn't take many people to kill it, and it doesn't require a conspiracy
I will frequently flag posts that are rage bait or where the comments are just the same few people arguing. I haven't flagged this one because I commented in it but it's a very low value post.
What makes it low value in your opinion? The story combines AI, YC, software licenses etc., which are generally of interest to the HN community.
It's gossip rage bait to feel the feelings of superiority in the writers community vs VC land. It doesn't dive into any of those things, if it did that could be valuable, it's just reporting events to drive feelings.
“You don’t need a formal conspiracy when interests converge” - George Carlin
Is this supposed to assauge the concerns of the public? Is dang not employed by, and thus a representative of, Y Combinator? There is every reason to believe he is directly responsible for protecting the interests of the company.
"Company investigated Company and found that Company did nothing wrong"
"Company investigated Company and found that Company did nothing wrong"
> There is every reason to believe he is directly responsible for protecting the interests of the company.
Yes, but the way we do it is different from the common assumption because we want to optimize HN's value for YC globally rather than overreacting to any particular story.
HN's value to YC consists of the community, and the community only exists because of goodwill and trust. To jeopardize that for the sake of suppressing a particular story (even if the article is false and/or sensational and/or shallow, silly or whatever) would be a super dumb tradeoff, so (as my son once said when he was little) "that what we not do".
I understand the skepticism, and of course you're free to disbelieve any part of what I say. All I can do is explain to people what we do and how we think about it, answer questions when asked, and hope that this is good enough to keep the bulk of the community happy.
Yes, but the way we do it is different from the common assumption because we want to optimize HN's value for YC globally rather than overreacting to any particular story.
HN's value to YC consists of the community, and the community only exists because of goodwill and trust. To jeopardize that for the sake of suppressing a particular story (even if the article is false and/or sensational and/or shallow, silly or whatever) would be a super dumb tradeoff, so (as my son once said when he was little) "that what we not do".
I understand the skepticism, and of course you're free to disbelieve any part of what I say. All I can do is explain to people what we do and how we think about it, answer questions when asked, and hope that this is good enough to keep the bulk of the community happy.
I don't really care about your concerns. If you are willing to lie for an employer we are ethically distant. I've seen no indication dang is willing to do that either and seen him being very open about things he didn't need to be. Also the way ownership works isn't so simple anymore as HN is YC. More like YC is HNs major sponsor these days.
I would hardly consider "moderating a public forum in accordance with your employer-mandated job description guidelines" to be "lying."
"dang" is a detail--the point is, if someone is being cut a paycheck by a company, the public is well within reason to believe that person has a job obligation to favorably represent the interests of that company.
"dang" is a detail--the point is, if someone is being cut a paycheck by a company, the public is well within reason to believe that person has a job obligation to favorably represent the interests of that company.
> I would hardly consider "moderating a public forum in accordance with your employer-mandated job description guidelines" to be "lying."
Explicitly saying you don't do X while doing X is lying, whether or not you are getting a paycheck for it.
(And to be clear, I doubt dang is lying; there’s no need to resort to centralized moderation to explain the observed behavior.)
Explicitly saying you don't do X while doing X is lying, whether or not you are getting a paycheck for it.
(And to be clear, I doubt dang is lying; there’s no need to resort to centralized moderation to explain the observed behavior.)
But dang has on multiple occasions said he doesn't do this so that would be not just lying up unnecessary lying.
Would anyone stop using HN if you knew they buried negative stories about YC? You're all still here so likely no.
Would anyone stop using HN if you knew they buried negative stories about YC? You're all still here so likely no.
> and he has never given me any reason to doubt his integrity
in other news: man kills his family, neighbours swear they were a normal happy family, It's totally unexpected, we never would have thought something like this could happen
past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior if and only if nothing else changes.
not speaking about dang specifically, but IMO it's a bit different to not do something when it benefits your reputation and to not do anything when it can harm your job safety.
in other news: man kills his family, neighbours swear they were a normal happy family, It's totally unexpected, we never would have thought something like this could happen
past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior if and only if nothing else changes.
not speaking about dang specifically, but IMO it's a bit different to not do something when it benefits your reputation and to not do anything when it can harm your job safety.
Power eventually turns a high trust society into a low trust society when that power is used to one’s own advantage.
I agree, which is why we're so careful about this - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41732846 elsewhere in this thread for what I mean by that.
Community goodwill is the only value HN has, so we take our lumps when we have to, rather than jeopardize that.
Community goodwill is the only value HN has, so we take our lumps when we have to, rather than jeopardize that.
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I'm sure nobody has hard proof either way, but there's certainly an ongoing pattern of the symptom. This place only exists to promote YC, so you can decide for yourself which is the simplest explanation.
They could just make all mod actions transparent. They won’t, of course, because that would mean accountability.
@dang is that true?
That’s a pretty wild quote from Matthew Duke Pan, one of the PearAI “founders”:
> dawg i chatgpt'd the license, anyone is free to use our app for free for whatever they want. if there's a problem with the license just lmk i'll change it. we busy building rn can't be bothered with legal
[https://x.com/anothercohen/status/1840515897804623882/photo/...]
> dawg i chatgpt'd the license, anyone is free to use our app for free for whatever they want. if there's a problem with the license just lmk i'll change it. we busy building rn can't be bothered with legal
[https://x.com/anothercohen/status/1840515897804623882/photo/...]
Whoa! I saw that quote in the article and thought it was some random twitter snarky satire. Not the actual founder.
I genuinely don't understand how you can make a business based on open source and not get IP lawyers involved.
I genuinely don't understand how you can make a business based on open source and not get IP lawyers involved.
The difference between 20-somwething founders and adults
As an investor I'd probably pick passion and dedication over maturity and responsibility too
As an investor I'd probably pick passion and dedication over maturity and responsibility too
There are 20-somethings and then there are 20-somethings. That attitude isn’t just an age thing.
The header image of his X account is also telling regarding his priorities: https://x.com/CodeFryingPan/header_photo
The header image of his X account is also telling regarding his priorities: https://x.com/CodeFryingPan/header_photo
The other cofounder is not far from him:
https://x.com/secemp9/status/1840517950060855431
If you are depending on an open source project for your startup, why say “Get dat shit outta here” after you change its name to your product? If its shit then why use it?
If you are depending on an open source project for your startup, why say “Get dat shit outta here” after you change its name to your product? If its shit then why use it?
Don’t know why the link doesn’t go to the article correctly. Here’s the working link: https://www.indiehackers.com/post/starting-up/the-ai-startup...
Submitted URL was https://www.indiehackers.com/post/starting-up/the-ai-startup...
Our software changed it to the canonical URL it got from that page, which was https://www.indiehackers.com/starting-up/the-ai-startup-dram...
I'll change to your link above now. Thanks!
p.s. I would have done this sooner but wasn't aware of this thread until an hour or so ago
Our software changed it to the canonical URL it got from that page, which was https://www.indiehackers.com/starting-up/the-ai-startup-dram...
I'll change to your link above now. Thanks!
p.s. I would have done this sooner but wasn't aware of this thread until an hour or so ago
Saved you two clicks
“PearAI, an open-source AI code editor. When people looked at its code they found that it was a clone of an existing open-source project called Continue.dev.”
Also worth noting that continue is also YC backed
Wait, so that's.. three open source AI code editors backed by YC so far, or more?
Including Void, Continue, and PearAI.
Including Void, Continue, and PearAI.
There’s probably a few, but it’s funny bc Pear is a fork of Continue
Why should people be dissuaded from clicking twice to develop a more nuanced take of their own than a two sentence summary from a stranger with unknown biases?
Regardless of what you think of Pear, making the claim that they have damaged Y Combinator's reputation is pretty dramatic.
Knowing the title is in reference to Pear (and not something that could be _actually_ damaging to YC's rep) lets me know the article is probably isnt worth the time.
Knowing the title is in reference to Pear (and not something that could be _actually_ damaging to YC's rep) lets me know the article is probably isnt worth the time.
> Regardless of what you think of Pear, making the claim that they have damaged Y Combinator's reputation is pretty dramatic.
YC's main value is in subsequent fundraising, wherein companies are pre-vetted by YC before being invested in by VCs. If they lose the confidence of VCs as being a reliable arbiter of preseed startups, the better startups will just go elsewhere (already happening) and soon the VCs will too. Thus harming YC's reputation massively.
YC's main value is in subsequent fundraising, wherein companies are pre-vetted by YC before being invested in by VCs. If they lose the confidence of VCs as being a reliable arbiter of preseed startups, the better startups will just go elsewhere (already happening) and soon the VCs will too. Thus harming YC's reputation massively.
If the link is to indiehackers it's just going to be a forum post from another stranger with unknown biases.
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Recent and related. Others?
YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41707495 - Oct 2024 (256 comments)
Pear AI founder: We made two big mistakes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41701265 - Sept 2024 (228 comments)
Y Combinator Traded Prestige for Growth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41697032 - Sept 2024 (244 comments)
YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41707495 - Oct 2024 (256 comments)
Pear AI founder: We made two big mistakes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41701265 - Sept 2024 (228 comments)
Y Combinator Traded Prestige for Growth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41697032 - Sept 2024 (244 comments)
It is becoming increasingly clear that YC is a recruitment pipeline for megacorps with the fringe benefit of a successful company launch.
Is this true? I never thought HN moderated content critical of itself