Surgeon General says loneliness is driving US into anxiety and pessimism(bubblic.app)
bubblic.app
Surgeon General says loneliness is driving US into anxiety and pessimism
https://www.bubblic.app/blog/causes-of-loneliness-by-us-surgeon-general-vivek-murthy
101 comments
"If I told you, 'I went into my backyard, I made this pill. It's amazing. It's free. If you take it, it'll actually improve your health, make you feel better, improve your performance at work, improve your grades, boost your immunity,' you'd be like, 'Sign me up. I'll take that tomorrow.'" It turns out that's what social connection is. Just a little connection can go a long way in keeping us healthy.
> It's free
Free in terms of monetary costs but not free in terms of absolute costs for example time and emotional depletion.
For some people they see social connections as more risks that they can possibly lose something and be hurt if things don't work out or they are rejected.
And in general social connections require some type of mutual benefit so it is necessary to "give" as you "get".
Then another layer are that social connections in general need a reason. Is it a club, hobby, job, etc. which takes time and energy.
These "costs" are not universal and vary from person to person.
All these things can be overcome, but it is also important to look at the other side because the reason that people prefer just buying a pill to fix their problems is that the above mentioned costs for them are greater than the price of alternatives like medication, social media, gaming, etc.
Free in terms of monetary costs but not free in terms of absolute costs for example time and emotional depletion.
For some people they see social connections as more risks that they can possibly lose something and be hurt if things don't work out or they are rejected.
And in general social connections require some type of mutual benefit so it is necessary to "give" as you "get".
Then another layer are that social connections in general need a reason. Is it a club, hobby, job, etc. which takes time and energy.
These "costs" are not universal and vary from person to person.
All these things can be overcome, but it is also important to look at the other side because the reason that people prefer just buying a pill to fix their problems is that the above mentioned costs for them are greater than the price of alternatives like medication, social media, gaming, etc.
Surely there have been relationships in your life that were net positive? Was your mother caring and loving when you were young? Did you ever have a best friend? Ever been in love?
The easiest way to have a positive relationship is to just be the good friend you’d want for yourself. The thoughtful lover you’d want to be with, the sort of sibling you wish you had.
Doing these things costs you nothing. You might even find some positive emotions when you do them.
The easiest way to have a positive relationship is to just be the good friend you’d want for yourself. The thoughtful lover you’d want to be with, the sort of sibling you wish you had.
Doing these things costs you nothing. You might even find some positive emotions when you do them.
True that. Especially if you layer the fact that people are less used to socializing so the very act of it becomes emotionally taxing
If you gave me that spiel, I would assume you were trying to scam me.
hccb(5)
Always funny to see the kind of prestige the Surgeon General has in the US, and the weight that statements like this carry (like the one on smoking, too). Here in NL I can't think of anyone in a similar position. (I'm not knocking it at all, to be clear)
It goes beyond him.
He's the head of one of the US government's eight uniformed services[0]. Like, in a sense, he's literally a general.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Se...
He's the head of one of the US government's eight uniformed services[0]. Like, in a sense, he's literally a general.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Public_Health_Se...
Most people probably know the Surgeon General as that guy who always slaps his warning message that nobody reads on beer bottles, cigarette packs, etc.
> Social Infrastructure
That's a term that I use, for the type of social structure that most societies have[0]. Bit different from what he's written.
It's not just a problem for young folks. Older folks are having huge problems with loneliness.
I won't speak to how it affects our physical well-being, but it sure does affect our mental well-being, and our mental health can definitely inform our physical health.
I'm always an advocate of engaging in volunteer or nonprofit work. It definitely has its issues, but does wonders for loneliness.
Most of the folks that hang out here, have extremely valuable skills, that could do wonders for NPOs.
[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/infrastructure/#social_inf
That's a term that I use, for the type of social structure that most societies have[0]. Bit different from what he's written.
It's not just a problem for young folks. Older folks are having huge problems with loneliness.
I won't speak to how it affects our physical well-being, but it sure does affect our mental well-being, and our mental health can definitely inform our physical health.
I'm always an advocate of engaging in volunteer or nonprofit work. It definitely has its issues, but does wonders for loneliness.
Most of the folks that hang out here, have extremely valuable skills, that could do wonders for NPOs.
[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/infrastructure/#social_inf
Right, the whole aspect of shared culture passed down many generations contain the wisdom that makes sure everyone has a role in the society
I'm in my sixties and can compare my life in seventies with the life of my kids (in late twenties now) and the life of kids nowadays. The obvious difference is that people nowadays don't have to interact with too many different people. They can totally ignore most of the world without any consequences, but this wasn't the case when I grew up. I had the myriad of relatives, cousins etc you had to interact with. In lot of cases this was awkward for me as introverted nerd, but I learned a lot from it. Without this need and practice I can totally see myself being lonely single in later life, not as father of three, grandfather of two, member of several communities etc I am now.
Where do you go to meet real humans and have social interaction?
Our (the states) reliance on car central culture is killing us in more ways than one.
I grew up in the suburbs and you could easily go a week without substantially interacting with people.
Jump in your metal capsule, drive 7 mins to Walmart, walk quietly across the huge parking lot, get your item and return home.
Contrasted with dense urban city with public transit, you will serendipitously bump into people and be forced to interact more with society, even if it is just exchanging pleasantries.
This is killing ourselves socially, not to mention how much cars cause physical death.
I grew up in the suburbs and you could easily go a week without substantially interacting with people.
Jump in your metal capsule, drive 7 mins to Walmart, walk quietly across the huge parking lot, get your item and return home.
Contrasted with dense urban city with public transit, you will serendipitously bump into people and be forced to interact more with society, even if it is just exchanging pleasantries.
This is killing ourselves socially, not to mention how much cars cause physical death.
That 'dense urban landscape' basically does not exist outside of NYC in the US. I'm not sure I'd choose it as a forever home anyway.
For me personally, when looking for a 'forever home' I'm starting to look at smaller college towns. They often have a walkable core around the college, you have access to continuing education opportunities and a college library.
While yes, living around a gaggle of college age kids can be tiring as you get older, a local university fosters a lot of intellectual vibrancy that you wouldn't get without it. You can always hang out with the older folks who teach the classes and serve the college age population.
For me personally, when looking for a 'forever home' I'm starting to look at smaller college towns. They often have a walkable core around the college, you have access to continuing education opportunities and a college library.
While yes, living around a gaggle of college age kids can be tiring as you get older, a local university fosters a lot of intellectual vibrancy that you wouldn't get without it. You can always hang out with the older folks who teach the classes and serve the college age population.
I assure you that living in the city you can easily go about your business for a week or more without talking to anyone if you so choose. People who don't know each other don't interact with each other in the city.
In affluent white neighborhoods somewhat true. Not at all true in my part of the city.
I loved living in a city more than I like driving around the suburbs, but suburbs exist and you can't wave a magic wand and turn them into cities. Being mad at cars isn't a solution, they're necessary for how much of the country is laid out.
And I feel like this could all come to no good
The kids who populate these cul-de-sacs will never know what stood
Beneath their cookie-cutter houses, fields and streams and woods
They'll sit in cars and wait for mom to drive them out of this boring neighborhood
- Defiance, Ohio; “Oh! Susquehanna”
The kids who populate these cul-de-sacs will never know what stood
Beneath their cookie-cutter houses, fields and streams and woods
They'll sit in cars and wait for mom to drive them out of this boring neighborhood
- Defiance, Ohio; “Oh! Susquehanna”
I do improvisational comedy. The improv community is very small despite being in a major metropolitan area.
Just sign to a gym. Not the pumping iron ones. Sign up to a martial arts gym, a dance studio, an art school. Anything that is more of a social activity, and that YOU LIKE. If you find a group of people that share the same niche interest that you genuinely have, you make friends. My personal advice to the engineer type of guys, is go to a BJJ gym if you want to practice something that is extremely challenging both physically and intellectually. The number of techniques is virtually infinite, and you can become good by simply memorizing more tech than your average jock. So, to make male friends (but not only that) go to a BJJ gym. If you want to meet girls, go to a dance studio. Both skills will be really valuable in terms of physical and mental health throughout your life, apart from the friends you'll make.
Pub quiz meetings, art galleries, film festivals.
Literally pick any half-organized activity. They’ll be posted all over the Web (sorry, you will probably need a Facebook account), your city’s website may have lists of organizations, and there are probably some fliers posted at the library (and the library may run a few gatherings themselves!)
Those are so important! I often struggle to suggest activities other than sports
Piggy backing to add - running clubs, book clubs, board game clubs, church if you're religious.
In my case a local makerspace to play board games. I've made a few friends that I hang out with outside the space -- sometimes I host events in my home, sometimes we go out to get dinner or whatever.
Tennis and rock climbing. Sports are easy gateways for friendship
I gave up before lockdown, and it turned out I was just preparing for what everybody else felt was the social apocalypse.
Volunteer work. I volunteer with one group (and have been doing this for almost 8 years now). I can't believe how many friends I have just from this one activity.
Neighbors. Just start talking to them. Have them over. We do this for football (NFL) games or just for dinner.
Surprisingly (or maybe not). Kpop concerts. My wife is very into this music scene. She has definitely made friends she keeps in touch with (friends she met at the concert). I went to one and I couldn't believe how many fans went alone and formed their own groups at the concert to watch/dance. And this is for all ages (I saw 80 year olds down to the teenagers). Edit: I should note that the concerts she has been to did not cost an arm and a leg.
Neighbors. Just start talking to them. Have them over. We do this for football (NFL) games or just for dinner.
Surprisingly (or maybe not). Kpop concerts. My wife is very into this music scene. She has definitely made friends she keeps in touch with (friends she met at the concert). I went to one and I couldn't believe how many fans went alone and formed their own groups at the concert to watch/dance. And this is for all ages (I saw 80 year olds down to the teenagers). Edit: I should note that the concerts she has been to did not cost an arm and a leg.
Both X and Bluesky are surprisingly pleasant places if you mute/block political keywords and accounts.
Bluesky notably having powerful blocklists.
"Technology got us into this problem, and technology will get us out of it!"
Gotta meet where the people are to get them unstuck!
Community college noncredit courses.
Classes are actually so great for meeting new people. Caveat: needs to be in person
Do people even do that any more? Serious question. I'm old and literally have no idea!
Hacker News.
I find HN more depressing than other social media. It's more focused on money, more anonymous (which isn't necessarily bad, but harder to connect with people), but mostly it's by far the most arrogant. I became a lot happier when I stopped showing up here regularly.
Def on the higher end of social media IQ spectrum
Clan, guild and hood
Pickleball courts
Part of me thinks the meanness with which people interact with each other online makes people more hesitant to interact with others irl.
Yeah the online interaction can't convey the human warmth as well as irl does for sure.
> The reason for anxiety and pessimism is because people are feeling more lonely.
Might anxiety cause loneliness? Seems pretty logical.
> More than half the people in America feel lonely, and the numbers are actually the greatest among the young people, young boys and girls. And this not only has implications in mental health, but it also has implications in physical health. It increases the risk for heart disease and premature death. Vivek also mentions that loneliness is a mental health issue.
The issue has come up before: Mightn't bad physical health, and especially bad mental health, cause loneliness?
It's certainly plausible that causation happens in both directions; I expect there's more than zero of that. But which direction is the bigger one? I have no idea. And if someone wants to say this with the authority of the Surgeon General, I want them to bring citations that actually prove causality.
Might anxiety cause loneliness? Seems pretty logical.
> More than half the people in America feel lonely, and the numbers are actually the greatest among the young people, young boys and girls. And this not only has implications in mental health, but it also has implications in physical health. It increases the risk for heart disease and premature death. Vivek also mentions that loneliness is a mental health issue.
The issue has come up before: Mightn't bad physical health, and especially bad mental health, cause loneliness?
It's certainly plausible that causation happens in both directions; I expect there's more than zero of that. But which direction is the bigger one? I have no idea. And if someone wants to say this with the authority of the Surgeon General, I want them to bring citations that actually prove causality.
Lets autisticly cut to the chase, this article is 100% about 1 paragraph.
Solution: Social Interaction
What happened about 50 years ago which REDUCED social interaction significantly? There's only 3 answers. All decisions by politicians with a negative consequence to social interaction per year. It will continue to trend worse. Social media, which only got invented recently, has no bearing on this conversation. Sorry, I wont be able to say what these 3 are here. The name of these will only serve to get me labelled *ist. I've got the ism, whatever.
Why is nobody allowed to discuss those 3 answers? Reddit committed suicide is now far behind Linkedin having overtly banned and pushed over 50% of their users off their site. Why is it that these 3 answers are bannable offences, but also not listed in the reddit rules? Well I asked... they dont want to boost these topics by putting them in the rules. So instead you get banned for violating a rule you didnt know was a rule? They unban you like as if they are doing you a favour.
Why is it governments have sunk billions if not trillions into trying to fix this problem... but refuse to look at the 3 answers? Are they willfully blind? Ignorance due to censorship is not an excuse.
You can have quadrillion $ into 'community development' and 'social infrastructure' but you are literally throwing that money into a pit of fire. It hasnt worked for decades... completely insane to keep trying. But taxpayer money grows on trees i guess.
Why do politicians not do the extremely unpopular, stupid to do, yet necessary changes? political suicide sure. In this case, probably assassinated.
Why does it have to become a crisis? Only after its a crisis will people listen to a fix, but we do have a social crisis.
The fundamental reason democracy needs actual free speech and no censorship is because sometimes you gotta say what's unpopular. Sometimes you even need to do it. But when you are in a situation where you even self-censor to avoid theoretical censorship, the discussion never happens.
This is why we are in this situation.
Solution: Social Interaction
What happened about 50 years ago which REDUCED social interaction significantly? There's only 3 answers. All decisions by politicians with a negative consequence to social interaction per year. It will continue to trend worse. Social media, which only got invented recently, has no bearing on this conversation. Sorry, I wont be able to say what these 3 are here. The name of these will only serve to get me labelled *ist. I've got the ism, whatever.
Why is nobody allowed to discuss those 3 answers? Reddit committed suicide is now far behind Linkedin having overtly banned and pushed over 50% of their users off their site. Why is it that these 3 answers are bannable offences, but also not listed in the reddit rules? Well I asked... they dont want to boost these topics by putting them in the rules. So instead you get banned for violating a rule you didnt know was a rule? They unban you like as if they are doing you a favour.
Why is it governments have sunk billions if not trillions into trying to fix this problem... but refuse to look at the 3 answers? Are they willfully blind? Ignorance due to censorship is not an excuse.
You can have quadrillion $ into 'community development' and 'social infrastructure' but you are literally throwing that money into a pit of fire. It hasnt worked for decades... completely insane to keep trying. But taxpayer money grows on trees i guess.
Why do politicians not do the extremely unpopular, stupid to do, yet necessary changes? political suicide sure. In this case, probably assassinated.
Why does it have to become a crisis? Only after its a crisis will people listen to a fix, but we do have a social crisis.
The fundamental reason democracy needs actual free speech and no censorship is because sometimes you gotta say what's unpopular. Sometimes you even need to do it. But when you are in a situation where you even self-censor to avoid theoretical censorship, the discussion never happens.
This is why we are in this situation.
I wonder how introversion affects loneliness.
I'm not just introverted, I am rather extreme ... to the point where I've wondered if I might have schizoid personality disorder (characterized by apathy towards forming close personal relationships).
I don't dislike being around people, I'm no misantrhope, but when I do engage in social activities I'm usually literally bed-ridden for a day or two after. I'm not even exaggerating. It is a level of fatigue that is reminiscent of the symptoms of clinical depression (but it's not depression because the cause and effect is well observed over 40 years of trying to figure myself out). When this happens I have zero motivation, zero energy, zero desire to do anything but sit on my fat unproductive lazy ass and be a complete vegetable and this will last for a day two depending on the intensity of the social interaction (if I go on vacation and disrupt my routine for a couple of weeks, I'm looking at upwards of a week to recover).
Introverts commonly describe the need "re-charge" after social interaction, and that's clearly what this is. It's just dialled up to 11 for me.
And this happens even if I had a great time with people that I really care about. Even date night with my wife will do this to me.
Every time I hear about the loneliness epidemic I wonder how universally applicable this is: to what degree are introverts susceptible to the negative effects of loneliness? To what degree do other introverts feel lonely? And are some people (like me) just wired so differently in the brain that we're "immune" to loneliness.
I mean I've gone months without talking to a single other human being. The data suggests that I should have all sorts of symptoms as a result, including "cabin fever" etc. But I've never experienced that. I certainly don't feel depressed when this happens. If anything I'm more productive and energetic and happy versus when I'm interacting with people regularly. I'm not even sure that I know what loneliness feels like or if I'm capable of experiencing it.
This is very personal and subjective. I'm mostly writing it just to see if other introverts feel the same or differently. If the "epidemic" is an "extrovert's epidemic" or I'm just, for lack of a better term, completely fucked in the head with an actual mental disorder that prevents me from ever feeling the slightest desire to connect with others, even following prolonged periods of isolation.
I'm not just introverted, I am rather extreme ... to the point where I've wondered if I might have schizoid personality disorder (characterized by apathy towards forming close personal relationships).
I don't dislike being around people, I'm no misantrhope, but when I do engage in social activities I'm usually literally bed-ridden for a day or two after. I'm not even exaggerating. It is a level of fatigue that is reminiscent of the symptoms of clinical depression (but it's not depression because the cause and effect is well observed over 40 years of trying to figure myself out). When this happens I have zero motivation, zero energy, zero desire to do anything but sit on my fat unproductive lazy ass and be a complete vegetable and this will last for a day two depending on the intensity of the social interaction (if I go on vacation and disrupt my routine for a couple of weeks, I'm looking at upwards of a week to recover).
Introverts commonly describe the need "re-charge" after social interaction, and that's clearly what this is. It's just dialled up to 11 for me.
And this happens even if I had a great time with people that I really care about. Even date night with my wife will do this to me.
Every time I hear about the loneliness epidemic I wonder how universally applicable this is: to what degree are introverts susceptible to the negative effects of loneliness? To what degree do other introverts feel lonely? And are some people (like me) just wired so differently in the brain that we're "immune" to loneliness.
I mean I've gone months without talking to a single other human being. The data suggests that I should have all sorts of symptoms as a result, including "cabin fever" etc. But I've never experienced that. I certainly don't feel depressed when this happens. If anything I'm more productive and energetic and happy versus when I'm interacting with people regularly. I'm not even sure that I know what loneliness feels like or if I'm capable of experiencing it.
This is very personal and subjective. I'm mostly writing it just to see if other introverts feel the same or differently. If the "epidemic" is an "extrovert's epidemic" or I'm just, for lack of a better term, completely fucked in the head with an actual mental disorder that prevents me from ever feeling the slightest desire to connect with others, even following prolonged periods of isolation.
I've never experienced that impact from interacting with other people, but I have described myself as being "wired to be alone."
If you think about it, it's not that unusual throughout history. Sailors, cowboys, shepherds, ranchers, prospectors, hunters etc., have been jobs done by those who preferred to be by themselves.
I remember watching a documentary about the first Iditarod. After the winner got to the finish line, there was an extravagant meal and cameras and news reporters. But the poor guy was so used to being alone with his dogs that he wasn't able to eat a thing with all those people around.
If you think about it, it's not that unusual throughout history. Sailors, cowboys, shepherds, ranchers, prospectors, hunters etc., have been jobs done by those who preferred to be by themselves.
I remember watching a documentary about the first Iditarod. After the winner got to the finish line, there was an extravagant meal and cameras and news reporters. But the poor guy was so used to being alone with his dogs that he wasn't able to eat a thing with all those people around.
That's very interesting and I wonder if it is related to your physical fitness? Social interaction and going out does require more from your body and I wonder if this is something you can train for like you train your muscles
And that's profitable.
So it shall continue.
So it shall continue.
I've read that the average american adult went from spending 11 hours per week with friends and family few decades ago to 4+ in 2010s, and sub 3 after covid.
Loneliness is the big sickness of our modern IT times.