SpaceX Seeks Approval to Turn Texas Starbase Site into New City(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
SpaceX Seeks Approval to Turn Texas Starbase Site into New City
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-12-13/spacex-seeks-approval-to-turn-texas-starbase-site-into-new-city
48 comments
I owe my soul to the company store. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRh0QiXyZSk
Source that this is a company town of old?
Edit: Why am I getting dowvoted for asking for a source?
Edit: Why am I getting dowvoted for asking for a source?
The (tweet of the) letter from SpaceX to the judge says “Incorporating Starbase will streamline the processes required to build the amenities necessary to make the area a world class place to live.”
Elon Musk is the dominant shareholder for SpaceX. My understanding is that with Tesla he always tried to vertically integrate everything, but with X it's all cut to the bare minimum. Hard to say if he'll go for "company controlled" or "free market" for Starbase, Texas but "company controlled" is not an unlikely outcome.
Elon Musk is the dominant shareholder for SpaceX. My understanding is that with Tesla he always tried to vertically integrate everything, but with X it's all cut to the bare minimum. Hard to say if he'll go for "company controlled" or "free market" for Starbase, Texas but "company controlled" is not an unlikely outcome.
How does that tweet indicate that it's a company town of old?
The tweet is a medium, but it's the letter's content that's important. We only have a piece of the letter (and history) to go on.
If the company builds, owns, and operates all the amenities that make a town, it's a company town. Like buying stock, these opinions are speculation, and might look wise or foolish later.
If the company builds, owns, and operates all the amenities that make a town, it's a company town. Like buying stock, these opinions are speculation, and might look wise or foolish later.
> but it's the letter's content that's important
Yes, and the letter says SpaceX wants the town incorporated so they can turn over functions that they're currently doing to the new public body. So literally the opposite of the claim of a company town is happening.
Yes, and the letter says SpaceX wants the town incorporated so they can turn over functions that they're currently doing to the new public body. So literally the opposite of the claim of a company town is happening.
The part where it’s ran by SpaceX
Huh, it says they want to turn over functions to a public body.
It’s a Musk company, who believes a word of what they say?
Elon Musk has revolutionised two whole industries, leapfrogging both the space and car industries decades forward.
You might not like him, but give the man at least some credit for what’s been accomplished by SpaceX.
You might not like him, but give the man at least some credit for what’s been accomplished by SpaceX.
Whataboutism
Also, Musk's accomplishments are subsidized both literal government subsidies as well as exploitative labor practice (not to mention that he spends his wealth - again, tax payer money - to destroy democracy).
Don't put him on a pedestal.
Also, Musk's accomplishments are subsidized both literal government subsidies as well as exploitative labor practice (not to mention that he spends his wealth - again, tax payer money - to destroy democracy).
Don't put him on a pedestal.
> Musk's accomplishments are subsidized both literal government subsidies
Source that SpaceX got government subsidies?
Source that SpaceX got government subsidies?
I hope they fucking do it. Sometimes people just need to learn hard lessons. Maybe then they'll stop looking to billionaires for answers - at least for another hundred years or so until we forget this lesson (again).
Or, I'm wrong and trying to raise a family under indentured servitude as a serf for our Glorious Meme Lord in X-Town will be better than it sounds.
Or, I'm wrong and trying to raise a family under indentured servitude as a serf for our Glorious Meme Lord in X-Town will be better than it sounds.
Thanks,sometimes I wonder when humanity lost to he ability to serve plain text over http.
some time around when people realised they could make $ from it.
It seems like it would be a neat, happening place to be. But how dangerous would it be to live and work there? Is there the potential for the rockets to blow up and destroy the city or anything like that?
Working at SpaceX that may just be a hazard of the job, but if they want the location to be a real city with a post office and school and cafes and shopping and all that, it probably wouldn't work. But I'm not too familiar with how likely or how big adjacent city affecting disasters could be.
Working at SpaceX that may just be a hazard of the job, but if they want the location to be a real city with a post office and school and cafes and shopping and all that, it probably wouldn't work. But I'm not too familiar with how likely or how big adjacent city affecting disasters could be.
My guess would be not that dangerous. People would not live next door to the launch site, they would live a 20 minute drive away.
People live near KSC and Vandenburg, there are no dangers there. It will be loud when there are launches, but those are relatively uncommon and pre-scheduled events.
People live near KSC and Vandenburg, there are no dangers there. It will be loud when there are launches, but those are relatively uncommon and pre-scheduled events.
Forget safety, but wouldn't adding more people around the launch site make the required permits even more difficult to get? You have to close the roads, the beach, issue "over-pressure event" notices, and so on.
This isn't unique to Starbase. See also: Chernobyl/Pripyat.
Many cities arose around a major industrial operation, including the city I live in, Ostrava. Ostrava used to be a micro-town of around 1000 people from the 13th century (foundation) into the early 19th century, but with discovery of black coal, it swelled to its max size of 330 000 (reached around 1990), the entire urban area is close to a million people.
True, black coal mines and steel foundries cannot kill the entire city at once, but the pollution kills people slowly anyway.
Many cities arose around a major industrial operation, including the city I live in, Ostrava. Ostrava used to be a micro-town of around 1000 people from the 13th century (foundation) into the early 19th century, but with discovery of black coal, it swelled to its max size of 330 000 (reached around 1990), the entire urban area is close to a million people.
True, black coal mines and steel foundries cannot kill the entire city at once, but the pollution kills people slowly anyway.
Coal mining certainly can a hell of a lot of non-workers all at once
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberfan_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberfan_disaster
I think what they're going for here is "base town" not a literal city with anything resembling a downtown.
IDK about Texas law and process but I assume having an incorporated municipality takes a lot of stuff that would be permitted or planned or have resource allocation determined on the county or state level and makes it the purview of the municipality so SpaceX would gain the ability to manage things more unilaterally.
IDK about Texas law and process but I assume having an incorporated municipality takes a lot of stuff that would be permitted or planned or have resource allocation determined on the county or state level and makes it the purview of the municipality so SpaceX would gain the ability to manage things more unilaterally.
It makes sense if you expect to have a lot of employees based there, which I imagine they want.
But it also seems odd to plan a big population center near to the launch site given the loud sonic booms it will be generating. And as you say, a city implies way more than just SpaceX employees, you also need all the services and infrastructure that people expect in life.
But it also seems odd to plan a big population center near to the launch site given the loud sonic booms it will be generating. And as you say, a city implies way more than just SpaceX employees, you also need all the services and infrastructure that people expect in life.
I think the noise emissions of a successful launch already make it an unattractive and potentially hazardous (for your hearing) place to live, especially considering SpaceX' launch frequency.
"The US Government studied what regular sonic booms do to people during the supersonic jet craze in the 1960s and 70s! It drives them to murderous rage. While the 1964 OKC test had multiple events per day, they were limited to 2 psf."
https://bsky.app/profile/bsky.esghound.com/post/3lc43jtf5422...
https://bsky.app/profile/bsky.esghound.com/post/3lc43jtf5422...
Would it really be any worse than living near an airport? Launches are loud, sure, but so is an airplane flying overhead.
With a difference of 5 dB, one approximation for a Starship flyback boom at 20 km is a ∼50% increase in loudness over the Concorde boom (where 9 dB represents a loudness doubling;)
https://pubs.aip.org/asa/jel/article/4/11/113601/3320807/Sta...
tl;dr - it's very loud
https://pubs.aip.org/asa/jel/article/4/11/113601/3320807/Sta...
tl;dr - it's very loud
Sonic booms are way worse than general aviation noise. A one off boom, sure, but when its every day that's got to drive you crazy.
Yes, there are safety concerns, especially given SpaceX's track record at that site. They've already been fined for violating the Clean Water Act. Their pad design blows up and sends chunks miles away and into nearby towns.
But, Musk is on a b̶r̶i̶b̶e̶r̶y̶ campaign donation spree right now, so I'm sure he'll get this rammed through.
But, Musk is on a b̶r̶i̶b̶e̶r̶y̶ campaign donation spree right now, so I'm sure he'll get this rammed through.
The pad was fixed prior to the second test launch with the addition of a water deluge system.
The clean water act issue involved a dispute between Texas and the EPA about which kind of Texas permit SpaceX needed for a potable (drinkable) water deluge at the pad. Texas regulators told SpaceX what they needed to do for permitting, SpaceX did it, and then the EPA came back and made them file different paperwork and pay a fine. My understanding is that the EPA did not require any changes to the deluge system, just different paperwork.
SpaceX concluded that paying the fine was faster than fighting the EPA.
SpaceX's version of events:
https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1823080774012481862
The clean water act issue involved a dispute between Texas and the EPA about which kind of Texas permit SpaceX needed for a potable (drinkable) water deluge at the pad. Texas regulators told SpaceX what they needed to do for permitting, SpaceX did it, and then the EPA came back and made them file different paperwork and pay a fine. My understanding is that the EPA did not require any changes to the deluge system, just different paperwork.
SpaceX concluded that paying the fine was faster than fighting the EPA.
SpaceX's version of events:
https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1823080774012481862
IIRC the Clean Water Act violation was discharge of potable water from the deluge system, which, while technically a violation, is a little absurd given the exact same effect would occur when it rains.
The debris from flight 1 you’re referring to did not reach any towns, and they have since added the above mentioned deluge system to prevent pad damage.
The debris from flight 1 you’re referring to did not reach any towns, and they have since added the above mentioned deluge system to prevent pad damage.
I didn't read the article (soft paywall), but there's a lot of precident for towns formed around industries. Taking the US northeast for example- the Industrial Revolution in the mid-19th century saw cities spring up to take advantage of local resources. Woonsocket RI was founded around a river that provides power to mills. There are many other examples of mill towns- the buildings still stand, and are often coverted to office or residential space.
In any case, SpaceX needs a place where its employees can live. But where is the dividing line between "corporate campus" and a municipality with local elective government?
In any case, SpaceX needs a place where its employees can live. But where is the dividing line between "corporate campus" and a municipality with local elective government?
Look a City of Industry in California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Industry,_California
My guess would be SpaceX wants to pay for and hire their own police/fire/roads instead of paying for and using the county/Brownsville. Probably have to plan any little thing at least three months in advance, particular if it involves utilities.
My guess would be SpaceX wants to pay for and hire their own police/fire/roads instead of paying for and using the county/Brownsville. Probably have to plan any little thing at least three months in advance, particular if it involves utilities.
Since we are living in another Gilded age (previous one 1870's to 1900), look to recreating earlier arrangements of employees and employers [1]. Modern day company town.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
Good thing there are plenty of other employment opportunities for SpaceX employees should they wish to not live in a company town.
Somehow I think most of them are pretty happy working at one of the most interesting and ambitious companies in the world.
Somehow I think most of them are pretty happy working at one of the most interesting and ambitious companies in the world.
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Maybe less like the old company town and more like what happened in 'Wild Wild Country' when a cult took over a town. Elon would have his own police force, can set municipal laws, enforce them as he see fit.
I would imagine this is as much about having the authority delegated to SpaceX who will effectively run the city and so can issue permits and the like for building. Not some desire to make it a better place to work but just a better place to do business. The reason for the move from Cal is probably because of all their "red-tape" and this way they can play fast and loose with the environment and residents lives.
I'm sure his new city will also give generous tax breaks to the biggest employer in the city...
I'm sure that this won't end up going the way of Fordlandia.
Inb4 the first part of Texas to actually achieve independence
Independence from... what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
"To build a city around Texas Starbase! Insanity. But where else could we be free from the clutching hand of the Parasites? Where else could we build an economy that they would not try to control, a society that they would not try to destroy? It was not impossible to build Xstan around Texas Starbase. It was impossible to build it anywhere else."
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What's next? SpaceX paying their employees with X-coins which are only usable in their own company store?