United States Digital Service renamed to DOGE(whitehouse.gov)
whitehouse.gov
United States Digital Service renamed to DOGE
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/establishing-and-implementing-the-presidents-department-of-government-efficiency/
114 comments
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I think there will a be a lot of 'this isn't what we voted for' moments under this new administration, , and that warnings dismissed as hyperbolic during the campaign season will turn out to have been entirely sober and realistic predictions.
I think there will a be a lot of 'this isn't what we voted for' moments under this new administration, , and that warnings dismissed as hyperbolic during the campaign season will turn out to have been entirely sober and realistic predictions.
They literally published their plan and no one believed them. After COVID my expectations for our country were pretty low, but now they are even lower. My Dad who worked as a public health nurse for 20 years supported this guy who wanted to shut down the DoE and leave the WHO. I just don't understand anymore.
I totally understand your point, but Musk said this was the end game when he bought twitter.
He wants x.com to be a single monolith “everything” app, just like they have in China.
The idea is to control currency, authentication, identity, reputation, commerce and communication, and to make use of it mandatory.
He wants x.com to be a single monolith “everything” app, just like they have in China.
The idea is to control currency, authentication, identity, reputation, commerce and communication, and to make use of it mandatory.
And funnel inauthentic adoration in the general direction of divorced dad billionaires
Which quote was that? Not finding anything, but then again I'm not sure exactly how to phrase the search.
multiple sources given at https://www.independent.co.uk/news/twitter-ap-elon-musk-meta...
also the whole "kitchen sink" image was probably a crude attempt at reinforcement
also the whole "kitchen sink" image was probably a crude attempt at reinforcement
> and to make use of it mandatory
That was really the part I was most curious about. As the article points out, a lot of big tech has been trying to make their app economy "indispensable" to consumers, but competition seems to have thwarted that mostly. If Elon is saying he'll make it mandatory by other means, then I'm really curious to hear what he is saying on the subject.
That was really the part I was most curious about. As the article points out, a lot of big tech has been trying to make their app economy "indispensable" to consumers, but competition seems to have thwarted that mostly. If Elon is saying he'll make it mandatory by other means, then I'm really curious to hear what he is saying on the subject.
Thwarted??
Can you run a business if you're not on Google Maps?
Can you run a business if you're not on Google Maps?
You absolutely can if you don’t have locations that are open to customers.
What I hear from the marketing folks I work with is that these days it’s less about Google and more “if you’re not advertising on Facebook, you’re not advertising.” (US centric perspective.)
What I hear from the marketing folks I work with is that these days it’s less about Google and more “if you’re not advertising on Facebook, you’re not advertising.” (US centric perspective.)
I think you missed the context. Thwarted in the sense that none of them have the necessity and reach of WeChat.
Then can you run a business without Visa?
I feel like you're being a bit disingenuous. The article stated that market competition has mostly thwarted the attempts of any single big tech company reaching the levels that WeChat has in China. If you're proposing Visa has done that (across all categories, not just financial), I'd be curious to hear your proposal.
To answer your question, though, Visa doesn't process payments for the dozen or so cannabis shops in my town and they are all thriving. I'm not saying it's common, or easy, but the answer is yes.
To answer your question, though, Visa doesn't process payments for the dozen or so cannabis shops in my town and they are all thriving. I'm not saying it's common, or easy, but the answer is yes.
Well you've disproven my point. Good work.
It wasn't a kitchen sink that he carried tho it was a bathroom sink... ah well he wouldn't know the difference...
Imagine being forced to use X. That sounds horrible.
>AFAIK, it has never been stated publicly that DOGE or Mr. Musk would get control of this most essential service, responsible for sourcing identity verification, etc.
The man has been plotting on Signal with a bunch of cronies. Of course, he was never revealing his plans.
But, honestly, this makes perfect sense. USDS is an easy way for them to backdoor their way into the technology environment of the federal government on day 1. He gets a crew of talented people to report to him on day 1 who know the ins and outs as good as anyone in the federal government.
On top of that, after 4 years, they can tout all the successes of DOGE. Hell, they might even claim it saved Healthcare.gov
The man has been plotting on Signal with a bunch of cronies. Of course, he was never revealing his plans.
But, honestly, this makes perfect sense. USDS is an easy way for them to backdoor their way into the technology environment of the federal government on day 1. He gets a crew of talented people to report to him on day 1 who know the ins and outs as good as anyone in the federal government.
On top of that, after 4 years, they can tout all the successes of DOGE. Hell, they might even claim it saved Healthcare.gov
> He gets a crew of talented people to report to him on day 1
The Digitial Service was pitched initially as a way for technologists to serve the country. The payscale was peanuts compared to most tech companies. I suspect some of the best will leave if the mission no longer aligns with their values, because they certainly weren’t doing it for the money.
The Digitial Service was pitched initially as a way for technologists to serve the country. The payscale was peanuts compared to most tech companies. I suspect some of the best will leave if the mission no longer aligns with their values, because they certainly weren’t doing it for the money.
It does make sense on paper, but I wonder how effective they will be. USDS never really controlled much (at least when I was there). It was much more about soft power, connecting disparate efforts, establishing best practices, boosting other teams when needed.
The idea that it's a backdoor to government technology is something that an outsider would think. For the record this also happened eight years ago when Jared Kushner tried to put his tennis buddy in charge.
The idea that it's a backdoor to government technology is something that an outsider would think. For the record this also happened eight years ago when Jared Kushner tried to put his tennis buddy in charge.
It makes sense as an agency that was already providing consultation to other agencies, and was inside the executive office of the president rather than being embedded in some other agency.
> It's disconcerting to see such a mismatch between rationale and deployment, particularly for a new agency with no oversight in Congress.
Disconcerting, but not surprising.
Disconcerting, but not surprising.
There was already a lawsuit filed off the bat challenging the structure of DOGE, so repurposing DS might have been to preempt that: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/20/doge-lawsuits-musk-...
It’s also possible DS had a critical mass of SV people that wasn’t beholden to existing bureaucracies. The structure of the DOGE teams embedded in each agency makes me think that someone thought through this quite carefully: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/trump-inauguration-presiden...
It’s also possible DS had a critical mass of SV people that wasn’t beholden to existing bureaucracies. The structure of the DOGE teams embedded in each agency makes me think that someone thought through this quite carefully: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/trump-inauguration-presiden...
Absolutely thought through carefully. People who think it's a joke because of the name will probably get a shock. Apparently they've been planning DOGE for months.
We can conclude a few things given this move, which I've been anticipating right since DOGE was first announced. It comes as no surprise. I think Elon's plan looks like this:
1. The purpose of the DOGE teams will be only partly efficiency. It will primarily be about control. Control initiatives might be disguised as efficiency initiatives in some cases.
2. The Trump agenda will be enforced by combining X.ai infrastructure with IT systems at big data scale using small projects. Think Grok reading every email sent by every federal employee looking for signs of subversion, stuff like that.
3. Targeted efforts to replace or augment key employees with LLMs, in particular to speed up approval processes in cases where Congress hasn't yet simplified the underlying procedures.
All this will NOT look like conventional government IT projects that take years and frequently stall out due to institutional inertia. They will be more like lightning strikes in which existing procedures, workflows and software are preserved but rendered essentially irrelevant by AI based automation, and which are forced on agencies by embedded outsiders given carte blanche administrator access before the middle managers even know what's happening. And maybe in some cases without the middle managers knowing what's happening.
Taking over USDS and then inserting loyal strike teams into each agency is exactly the right way to start such a strategy. You don't need many people to inject an LLM call into a teed off communication feed. USDS has people familiar with the broad outlines of the IT systems used across government.
This strategy makes sense for the Trump administration and others. Governments all over the west, not just America, are struggling with civil servants that have gone rogue and just refuse to implement direct orders or actively wage war against elected leaders. Nowhere is this more extreme than the USA, but this problem isn't unique to the right. In the UK recently some anonymous civil servants told the BBC that "there is a mood that we should just pull the plug on [Kier Starmer]". Starmer's "crime" in this case was to criticize the civil service, calling them comfortable with managed decline. I'm not a Labour supporter but he won the election fair and square. It's dystopian that elements of the civil service are openly telling high profile journalists that they are the ones in charge and can simply "unplug" Prime Ministers who mildly criticize them.
We can conclude a few things given this move, which I've been anticipating right since DOGE was first announced. It comes as no surprise. I think Elon's plan looks like this:
1. The purpose of the DOGE teams will be only partly efficiency. It will primarily be about control. Control initiatives might be disguised as efficiency initiatives in some cases.
2. The Trump agenda will be enforced by combining X.ai infrastructure with IT systems at big data scale using small projects. Think Grok reading every email sent by every federal employee looking for signs of subversion, stuff like that.
3. Targeted efforts to replace or augment key employees with LLMs, in particular to speed up approval processes in cases where Congress hasn't yet simplified the underlying procedures.
All this will NOT look like conventional government IT projects that take years and frequently stall out due to institutional inertia. They will be more like lightning strikes in which existing procedures, workflows and software are preserved but rendered essentially irrelevant by AI based automation, and which are forced on agencies by embedded outsiders given carte blanche administrator access before the middle managers even know what's happening. And maybe in some cases without the middle managers knowing what's happening.
Taking over USDS and then inserting loyal strike teams into each agency is exactly the right way to start such a strategy. You don't need many people to inject an LLM call into a teed off communication feed. USDS has people familiar with the broad outlines of the IT systems used across government.
This strategy makes sense for the Trump administration and others. Governments all over the west, not just America, are struggling with civil servants that have gone rogue and just refuse to implement direct orders or actively wage war against elected leaders. Nowhere is this more extreme than the USA, but this problem isn't unique to the right. In the UK recently some anonymous civil servants told the BBC that "there is a mood that we should just pull the plug on [Kier Starmer]". Starmer's "crime" in this case was to criticize the civil service, calling them comfortable with managed decline. I'm not a Labour supporter but he won the election fair and square. It's dystopian that elements of the civil service are openly telling high profile journalists that they are the ones in charge and can simply "unplug" Prime Ministers who mildly criticize them.
FDR’s criticism of public unions applies more generally: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-b.... The elected government shouldn’t have to cajole and negotiate with unelected civil servants to execute its agenda.
The comments about Starmer are shocking. So was the “Resistance.”
The comments about Starmer are shocking. So was the “Resistance.”
> There's no relationship between bureaucracy efficiency efforts and the digital service
Really? I thought much of the value of the USDS came from consolidating technology implementations that were aging and duplicated across different agencies, providing standard platforms and access, etc.
It seems directly related to “bureaucracy efficiency.” In fact I’m sure if you went back to read comments and discussion on previous posts about the USDS, you’d find people clearly referencing this value add.
Really? I thought much of the value of the USDS came from consolidating technology implementations that were aging and duplicated across different agencies, providing standard platforms and access, etc.
It seems directly related to “bureaucracy efficiency.” In fact I’m sure if you went back to read comments and discussion on previous posts about the USDS, you’d find people clearly referencing this value add.
Last Trump administration, the Digital Service decided it wouldn’t assist in certain DHS operations. I don’t know if that was just family separation stuff, of immigration enforcement more broadly.
That seemed short sighted. The employees can refuse to do something, and threaten to quit. But don’t expect your department to last long.
That seemed short sighted. The employees can refuse to do something, and threaten to quit. But don’t expect your department to last long.
I have a few friends who were involved in the creation of the US Digital Service, and as it stands it is one of the absolute best parts of our government. Formed after the Healthcare.gov disaster, the USDS brings Silicon Valley tech knowledge to the government in an attempt to ensure that we all have the online government services that we deserve. It's a tiny agency up against a massive bureaucracy that is anything but open to new ways of doing things. And they've made progress, but not enough.
I'm going to try to look on the bright side and say that maybe this means the wonderful people at the USDS are about to get a huge influx of funding and staffing, and will get to better fulfill the promise of their agency. But at the same time, I'm afraid that this White House may not have the best interests of this particular agency in mind.
Fun side story: on my first day working on Barack Obama's presidential transition, I spent about four hours watching a presentation from the Section 508[1] department about how to make screen-reader accessible PDFs. It took three people to give that presentation – one to speak, one for the live demo, and another to advance the slides. It was quite a downshift from the campaign, where we'd moved very quickly to harness the tech we needed.
[1] https://www.section508.gov/
I'm going to try to look on the bright side and say that maybe this means the wonderful people at the USDS are about to get a huge influx of funding and staffing, and will get to better fulfill the promise of their agency. But at the same time, I'm afraid that this White House may not have the best interests of this particular agency in mind.
Fun side story: on my first day working on Barack Obama's presidential transition, I spent about four hours watching a presentation from the Section 508[1] department about how to make screen-reader accessible PDFs. It took three people to give that presentation – one to speak, one for the live demo, and another to advance the slides. It was quite a downshift from the campaign, where we'd moved very quickly to harness the tech we needed.
[1] https://www.section508.gov/
> huge influx of funding and staffing
That would be antithetical to their new name.
That would be antithetical to their new name.
It's not illogical to staff up an agency charged with efficiency so you can cut more staffing elsewhere. This is honestly what most SaaS does.
It's not necessarily illogical, but it can just as easily be a smoke cloud around some sinecures, and the details of this effort (including but not limited to the meme name) don't fill me with confidence that they're going to fix real problems.
Unless they don't determine it to be waste. Then it'd be perfectly in-line.
the USDS is the biggest joke to tech people in DC – just silicon valley more cosplay
"Agency has the meaning given to it in section 551 of title 5, United States Code" ... "each Agency Head shall establish within their respective Agencies a DOGE Team of at least four employees" ... "each DOGE Team will typically include one DOGE Team Lead, one engineer, one human resources specialist, and one attorney"
that's at least 500k in salaries even for the lowball public sector, and there are at least 230 federal agencies, which you can be damn sure are gonna interpret this as broadly as possible, i.e. including the subagencies that's 400+ under 5 USC § 551 (see https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies)
nothing like kicking off your "efficiency" drive with a $200m+ expense
that's at least 500k in salaries even for the lowball public sector, and there are at least 230 federal agencies, which you can be damn sure are gonna interpret this as broadly as possible, i.e. including the subagencies that's 400+ under 5 USC § 551 (see https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies)
nothing like kicking off your "efficiency" drive with a $200m+ expense
"that's at least 500k in salaries even for the lowball public sector"
I'm not sure I agree with the approach, but this seems overstated. At least from an engineer perspective, there are sub-$70k engineer jobs. That four person team could be $250k. Also, they could be pulling that internally instead of external hires.
I'm not sure I agree with the approach, but this seems overstated. At least from an engineer perspective, there are sub-$70k engineer jobs. That four person team could be $250k. Also, they could be pulling that internally instead of external hires.
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Those teams will be tasted with heavy responsibilities (or at least workload) and most of them will want to compensated accordingly. Also, even for low paid jobs you're overlooking benefits, pension contributions etc.
While some of them might be internal hires, to the extent that they were previously productive, those jobs will have to be replaced, and to the extent that they were not, they will be incentivized to make broad decisions whose eventual costs may fall upon the public in terms of lower responsiveness or less effective outcomes or the loss of impartiality.
While some of them might be internal hires, to the extent that they were previously productive, those jobs will have to be replaced, and to the extent that they were not, they will be incentivized to make broad decisions whose eventual costs may fall upon the public in terms of lower responsiveness or less effective outcomes or the loss of impartiality.
That GS-8 or whatever making $70k probably costs 50% or double that after benefits
Yeah, with benefits will be higher. Maybe 50% at most for gov jobs.
The US government has standard pay tables. My understanding is that the grades are determined by experience. They couldn't pay skilled workers less than their rate.
Have you looked at the USA jobs gov site? I've seen low paying engineering jobs.
Some of these agencies have IT infrastructure meant to accommodate thousands of people. Many have convoluted structures to protect data; webs of contractor-led programs that are barely connected. You really think an engineer that will accept 70k pay is going to even understand what's going on?
They can make it revenue neutral by firing the DEI people :)
Was the external DOGE organization, as previously described, supposed to have a digital modernization component? It seemed like more of a project to ‘cut expenses’, like an external GAO.
The silly part of me wants to say they picked USDS because it had a D in it, but I’m guessing that wasn’t it.
The silly part of me wants to say they picked USDS because it had a D in it, but I’m guessing that wasn’t it.
The USDS Administrator shall commence a Software Modernization Initiative to improve the quality and efficiency of government-wide software
After seeing so many failed "modernization" projects that just made things worse, this should be the biggest worry.
After seeing so many failed "modernization" projects that just made things worse, this should be the biggest worry.
On the other hand, it'll likely never be finished before the president's term is up, judging from my own experiences with modernization projects.
Not even that long:
The U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization shall terminate on July 4, 2026.
The U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization shall terminate on July 4, 2026.
Is this going to be like what happened with NAFTA where something gets renamed with some token changes and then mission accomplished is declared?
> Doge is an Internet meme that became popular in 2013
Hopefully Elon gets to the Harlem Shake or Gangam style soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_(meme)
Hopefully Elon gets to the Harlem Shake or Gangam style soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_(meme)
Was the font always so massive?
No. If the content is thin, make a large headline.
(Worked well throughout Trump's campaign. They even printed it on red caps.)
(Worked well throughout Trump's campaign. They even printed it on red caps.)
Nope. That's new. wow. A big change in vibe/look right out the gate. Uggh.
"Big font. Much wow. Big win." - Doge
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Dodgy department
this is the saddest shit, the Digital Service was something good and wholesome and valuable.
We all saw what happened to Twitter, Inc, right?
We all saw what happened to Twitter, Inc, right?
What a joke.
Jen Pahlka—a HealthCare.gov rescue team member who helped start the US Digital Service—has been writing a really informative series of posts that summarize what the Obama administration learned from its efforts to make government more efficient.
Here's a good starting point: "Bringing Elon to a Knife Fight": https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/bringing-elon-to-a-knife-figh...
The basic goal of making government work well is (or should be) bipartisan. The nuts and bolts of how you do that are really hard to get right.
Here's a good starting point: "Bringing Elon to a Knife Fight": https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/bringing-elon-to-a-knife-figh...
The basic goal of making government work well is (or should be) bipartisan. The nuts and bolts of how you do that are really hard to get right.
I hate to be flippant, but it's just abundantly clear that Pahlka is soon going to be the newest recipient of a "fell for it again" award. I'm still an Elon fan at heart, but it's absolutely impossible to believe he's interested in the nuts-and-bolts view of government efficiency she's describing. He's repeatedly said that the problem is the government spending too much money, which he'll fix by finding employees, departments, and regulations to get rid of.
Reality continues its convergence with The Onion.
The photo op of the US president signing the country out of the Paris Agreement in 2025, in public, to a cheering crowd is also a great fit for a Mad Max backstory intro montage.
Max stands on a tall wall made of scrap, inside a compound protecting him from the mad man with a bullhorn and his cronies below. The broad chested mad man on the ground belows:
- I know words, I know the best words for I am the most stable genius.
- I know words, I know the best words for I am the most stable genius.
It was surreal seeing Fox News have polymarket bets being taken on what Trump would say side by side with him speaking.
And I don’t even know what to say about the president and First Lady releasing official meme coins…
And I don’t even know what to say about the president and First Lady releasing official meme coins…
> I don’t even know what to say about the president and First Lady releasing official meme coins…
wait, this actually happened?
wait, this actually happened?
Why was this flagged? Highly relevant tech news.
I prefer when governments at least pretend to be serious.
Glad I'm not American, so sorry for you guys for the next four years.
Glad I'm not American, so sorry for you guys for the next four years.
Unfortunately, most nations aren't insulated from the consequences of what America has decided to do to itself.
With the US freely surrendering much of its soft power to China and Russia (e.g. by exiting the WHO, ...), I suppose it'll a bit more insulated.
WHO wasn't supposed to be a tool of soft power, and the fact it turned to one makes the decision to leave it all more valid. What soft power does a healthcare organisation provide, that couldnt be better served by your own means?
I think you're confusing soft power with hard power.
How do you feel about something like the International Atomic Energy Agency?
Showing up to do work is how you wield soft power nonetheless, even if it's a side effect.
What is happening now will take a lot longer than 4 years to recover from if ever. Just feel sorry for us, that it is just us, which it won't be.
I don't think there is any sort of recovering from this. Have we recovered from the Bush years? Have we recovered from the fall of the Roman Empire?
Unfortunately I think they are serious, just not about solving the problems they say they will solve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joV-9FFoA3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joV-9FFoA3Q
I know Americans tend to be patriots, but also that they often have a misunderstanding of the rest of the western world. I wonder if they care how the rest of the western world views the US democracy (which was never considered to be strong implementation of democracy) and the clown government that is now being installed.
I much prefer it when they are actually serious. Hasn't happened anywhere on a while, at least on national stages
"Glad I'm not X" doesn't matter when the withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement will hit the whole planet.
That agreement does nothing but launder tax money into "green" companies.
We set oil burning records every year.
The people writing that agreement fly around in private jets.
Snap out of it!
We set oil burning records every year.
The people writing that agreement fly around in private jets.
Snap out of it!
We surpassed the goals set by the accord already and other countries ignore it because it has no teeth. Nothing was lost.
Yellow jacket riots?
It feels like being on a train about to go over a collapsed bridge. Watching as the first cars go over the cliff.
Which country are you based in, Canada? I have bad news for what’s happening with your government, both related to America and not.
Serious like Biden preemptively pardoning all of his family and Dr "Gain of function research is worth the risk" Fauci?
Really? I’m looking forward to finally getting some adults in the room.
It’s hilarious when the campaign is focused on getting immigration, public safety and the government budget under control (all basic functions of government that haven’t been functioning) and people’s response is “i feel sorry for you”.
Uhh, ok?
It’s hilarious when the campaign is focused on getting immigration, public safety and the government budget under control (all basic functions of government that haven’t been functioning) and people’s response is “i feel sorry for you”.
Uhh, ok?
The problem is that our government has been merely pretending to be serious while being extremely unserious: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/03/28/....
Musk, who has revolutionized two massive industries, is “serious.” The outgoing administration was cosplaying seriousness. America didn’t want to reelect Trump. They did it because the “grownups in the room” were a tire fire that managed to do almost everything wrong, from immigration to foreign policy.
Musk, who has revolutionized two massive industries, is “serious.” The outgoing administration was cosplaying seriousness. America didn’t want to reelect Trump. They did it because the “grownups in the room” were a tire fire that managed to do almost everything wrong, from immigration to foreign policy.
Sorry that we got what we voted for?
Don’t be.
Democracy is not a game focused on picking the best outcome. Democracy is a game of trial and error.
Don’t be.
Democracy is not a game focused on picking the best outcome. Democracy is a game of trial and error.
(Not mine) This is like buying Twitter and renaming it to X
AFAIK, it has *never* been stated publicly that DOGE or Mr. Musk would get control of this most essential service, responsible for sourcing identity verification, etc.
There's no relationship between bureaucracy efficiency efforts and the digital service. Indeed, one would have expected DOGE to be injected into the Office of Personnel Management.
It's disconcerting to see such a mismatch between rationale and deployment, particularly for a new agency with no oversight in Congress.