ASML's boss has a warning for Europe(economist.com)
economist.com
ASML's boss has a warning for Europe
https://www.economist.com/business/2025/03/25/asmls-boss-has-a-warning-for-europe
136 comments
A comment regarding ‘American Isolationism’.
The USA is threatening to annex its (former) allies. This is not isolationism.
Additionally, we do have trade with the Asian countries mentioned. My factory produces heavy machinery, and we’ve installed it on sites in Taiwan. Europe has very good relationships with those countries.
The USA is threatening to annex its (former) allies. This is not isolationism.
Additionally, we do have trade with the Asian countries mentioned. My factory produces heavy machinery, and we’ve installed it on sites in Taiwan. Europe has very good relationships with those countries.
Given how openly hostile the United States is to the European Union (and will continue to be for at least the next 4 years), it would be extremely foolish for the EU to continue to go along with the US' chip war against China.
What does the EU stand to gain from trying to kneecap China's technological development? The US' motivation is clear: the US wants to maintain its hegemonic position. But the EU has no such position to defend.
Instead of acting as a mere pawn of the US, the EU should formulate its own foreign policy that maintains relations with both the US and China, and which avoids getting sucked into one or the other side of the US-China rivalry. The ASML CEO's statement on this is right:
> Referring to the Dutch government’s willingness to follow America’s lead on export bans, Mr Fouquet says that Europe must “decide for itself what it wants” and “should not be dictated to by anyone else”.
What does the EU stand to gain from trying to kneecap China's technological development? The US' motivation is clear: the US wants to maintain its hegemonic position. But the EU has no such position to defend.
Instead of acting as a mere pawn of the US, the EU should formulate its own foreign policy that maintains relations with both the US and China, and which avoids getting sucked into one or the other side of the US-China rivalry. The ASML CEO's statement on this is right:
> Referring to the Dutch government’s willingness to follow America’s lead on export bans, Mr Fouquet says that Europe must “decide for itself what it wants” and “should not be dictated to by anyone else”.
> Given how openly hostile the United States is to the European Union (and will continue to be for at least the next 4 years), it would be extremely foolish for the EU to continue to go along with the US' chip war against China.
China is just as much a threat to European companies and European interests as it is to American interests.
Trump and his foolishness aside, it's high time Europe wakes up and realizes China is already at war with us - in fact, it has been at war with us for well over a decade. China systematically undercuts our industries with slave labor and sharting on their environment (not that I'd care too much about smog in China, that's their business, but I do care when our industry can't compete because we actually want to protect our environment), China deploys organized hacker campaigns against us or outright buys up our companies to extract knowledge and know-how - and we've bent over for way too long. We haven't even ever insisted on reciprocity in market access ffs!
China is just as much a threat to European companies and European interests as it is to American interests.
Trump and his foolishness aside, it's high time Europe wakes up and realizes China is already at war with us - in fact, it has been at war with us for well over a decade. China systematically undercuts our industries with slave labor and sharting on their environment (not that I'd care too much about smog in China, that's their business, but I do care when our industry can't compete because we actually want to protect our environment), China deploys organized hacker campaigns against us or outright buys up our companies to extract knowledge and know-how - and we've bent over for way too long. We haven't even ever insisted on reciprocity in market access ffs!
> China systematically undercuts our industries with slave labor
By this argument isn't America undercutting Europe by taxing companies less and being ok with less worker rights?
> China is already at war with us
Who is us here? Because you are threatening a takeover of Greenland and giving up Ukraine to Russia. Not to mention tariffing and threatening your closest allies.
> and sharting on their environment
Per capita co2 emissions
USA: 14.21
China: 8.89
By this argument isn't America undercutting Europe by taxing companies less and being ok with less worker rights?
> China is already at war with us
Who is us here? Because you are threatening a takeover of Greenland and giving up Ukraine to Russia. Not to mention tariffing and threatening your closest allies.
> and sharting on their environment
Per capita co2 emissions
USA: 14.21
China: 8.89
> By this argument isn't America undercutting Europe by taxing companies less and being ok with less worker rights?
We, at least until Trump, got the US military keeping Russia out of Europe and dealing with a whole lot of other bullshit we were too frugal to deal with on our own on the global stage.
> Who is us here? Because you are threatening a takeover of Greenland and giving up Ukraine to Russia. Not to mention tariffing and threatening your closest allies.
Europe, that should be obvious from context.
> Per capita co2 emissions
CO2 is one thing, but the time that the Western world had smog events like China had up until their Olympic Games is decades in the past. Besides, China's per-capita emissions are driven down by the fact that they still have a lot of utterly poor people that barely cause any emissions.
We, at least until Trump, got the US military keeping Russia out of Europe and dealing with a whole lot of other bullshit we were too frugal to deal with on our own on the global stage.
> Who is us here? Because you are threatening a takeover of Greenland and giving up Ukraine to Russia. Not to mention tariffing and threatening your closest allies.
Europe, that should be obvious from context.
> Per capita co2 emissions
CO2 is one thing, but the time that the Western world had smog events like China had up until their Olympic Games is decades in the past. Besides, China's per-capita emissions are driven down by the fact that they still have a lot of utterly poor people that barely cause any emissions.
> the time that the Western world had smog events like China had up until their Olympic Games is decades in the past.
China has actually made very significant efforts to reduce smog, and there's been a huge improvement in the last 10 years. There's still way more smog than in the US or Western Europe, but it's gotten dramatically better, and it will probably continue to get better.
China has actually made very significant efforts to reduce smog, and there's been a huge improvement in the last 10 years. There's still way more smog than in the US or Western Europe, but it's gotten dramatically better, and it will probably continue to get better.
> We, at least until Trump, got the US military keeping Russia out of Europe and dealing with a whole lot of other bullshit we were too frugal to deal with on our own on the global stage.
Well we have Trump now.
> Europe, that should be obvious from context.
There is no "we" if you threaten to invade land and treat us like enemies. I thought the sarcasm was obvious.
> CO2 is one thing, but the time that the Western world had smog events like China had up until their Olympic Games is decades in the past.
How many decades of pollution did the USA emit developing through the last century while Asia didn't because they were insanely poor because of war and colonisation?
> Besides, China's per-capita emissions are driven down by the fact that they still have a lot of utterly poor people that barely cause any emissions.
Germany has a per capita co2 emission rate of 8.01 so even lower than China. The USA is at 14.21.
Well we have Trump now.
> Europe, that should be obvious from context.
There is no "we" if you threaten to invade land and treat us like enemies. I thought the sarcasm was obvious.
> CO2 is one thing, but the time that the Western world had smog events like China had up until their Olympic Games is decades in the past.
How many decades of pollution did the USA emit developing through the last century while Asia didn't because they were insanely poor because of war and colonisation?
> Besides, China's per-capita emissions are driven down by the fact that they still have a lot of utterly poor people that barely cause any emissions.
Germany has a per capita co2 emission rate of 8.01 so even lower than China. The USA is at 14.21.
TikTok, YMTC, DJI, DeekSeek, ZTE, Huawei, SMIC, BYD use ``slave labour''?
Have you been at recent top conferences in computer science? Every year the number of top papers coming from China increases. A direct consequence of the sustained investment into education. China also leads most European in EV adoption.
You man know Kübler-Ross's Five Stages Of Grief [1]. Like most Europeans, you seem to be stuck somewhere between denial and anger regarding European relative decline vis-a-vis China. I suggest flying over there and taking a look for yourself.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief
Have you been at recent top conferences in computer science? Every year the number of top papers coming from China increases. A direct consequence of the sustained investment into education. China also leads most European in EV adoption.
You man know Kübler-Ross's Five Stages Of Grief [1]. Like most Europeans, you seem to be stuck somewhere between denial and anger regarding European relative decline vis-a-vis China. I suggest flying over there and taking a look for yourself.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief
Your war rhetoric is false and dangerous, because if we are at war, then acts of war against them are justified. Should we bomb them because they work too long hours?
> Should we bomb them because they work too long hours?
No, but respond tit-for-tat. In this case, tariffs or import bans would be an appropriate response. In the case of hacking, either hackbacks or cutting China off from the Internet.
No, but respond tit-for-tat. In this case, tariffs or import bans would be an appropriate response. In the case of hacking, either hackbacks or cutting China off from the Internet.
China's threat is different from the US'. But anyway, the real threat to EU is in EU itself, as for all major organizations.
Is it China undercutting or is it US been hurting itself in inflation for decades?
>What does the EU stand to gain from trying to kneecap China's technological development?
Same reason it's a thereat top the US. Because China's technological development is a threat to the profitability of EU companies, meaning it's a threat to the EU citizens standard of living. Because who would buy anything made in EU if products from China cost half as much at the same quality?
Why do you think they're putting so high tariffs on Chinese EVs despite the EU's push for zero carbon environmentalism. If they cared so much about the environment they would import cheap Chinese EVs to accelerate the switch to EVs, but they care more about preserving jobs and profits in the union which is what every country prioritizes, because otherwise profits would collapse, unemployment would skyrocket.
Same reason it's a thereat top the US. Because China's technological development is a threat to the profitability of EU companies, meaning it's a threat to the EU citizens standard of living. Because who would buy anything made in EU if products from China cost half as much at the same quality?
Why do you think they're putting so high tariffs on Chinese EVs despite the EU's push for zero carbon environmentalism. If they cared so much about the environment they would import cheap Chinese EVs to accelerate the switch to EVs, but they care more about preserving jobs and profits in the union which is what every country prioritizes, because otherwise profits would collapse, unemployment would skyrocket.
This is shortsighted. A lot of EU businesses can, and do, benefit from partnering with China. Most EU countries willingly and intentionally de-industrialized in the past decades (see Dutch disease) and moved the production to China.
European countries also willingly and intentionally outsourced their technological edge to the US. This didn't end up in disaster either. Why should it be any different with China?
When Japanese or Korean cars came we had almost the same reactions. Nobody complains now. Why should it be different with China?
Most of the chips are produced in Taiwan. There is no way EU can catch up. What does, economically, change if this moves to China!
Treating technology and economy as a zero sum game is simply wrong.
European countries also willingly and intentionally outsourced their technological edge to the US. This didn't end up in disaster either. Why should it be any different with China?
When Japanese or Korean cars came we had almost the same reactions. Nobody complains now. Why should it be different with China?
Most of the chips are produced in Taiwan. There is no way EU can catch up. What does, economically, change if this moves to China!
Treating technology and economy as a zero sum game is simply wrong.
Indeed. And this is not only valid for ASML and chips but also for Ukraine. Europe doesn't know where its interests are, cannot defend them, and in fact is even unsure about its own identity- EU countries make strategic deals with non-EU ones (eg. Macron involving the UK in defence plans) while trying to isolate other EU members (Hungary, Slovakia). In the European media there is a constant confusion between EU and Europe, as if the political union and the geographic expression were interchangeable terms.
In this scenario it is absolutely trivial for the US to impose their own will on the EU. We act selflessly not out of a sense of responsibility or altruism but out of an actual lack of sense of self. And the current administration is so sure of the persistence of this state of things that has no trouble whatsoever antagonising the EU with threats and demands- they know we'll never get our acts together in any case.
In this scenario it is absolutely trivial for the US to impose their own will on the EU. We act selflessly not out of a sense of responsibility or altruism but out of an actual lack of sense of self. And the current administration is so sure of the persistence of this state of things that has no trouble whatsoever antagonising the EU with threats and demands- they know we'll never get our acts together in any case.
So they are warning that they might have to move if Europe don't help them do what? And move to where?
Article reads to me like they want the EU to start ignoring US export bans so that ASML can maintain their market position. Not sure how they would answer that "where?" though
I doubt it’s a real threat but it would be a country that would happily unsubscribe from US export bans. So Israel or Singapore would be two good options for the chip industry. South Korea or Switzerland you could argue for but are probably less realistic. Maybe Canada now, lol.
I can only see two possible positions: China or the Middle-East. The Middle-East does have its problems though and kinda depends on the US for security. So that leaves China as the most likely option.
America, duh
Good luck finding people willing to immigrate to the USA at this point, where the administration is (literally!) disappearing them by revoking visas and arresting them without legal recourse. Non-citizens are one intemperate op-ed away from living the rest of their days in a Louisiana jail without trial. That sounds so ridiculous that you'd think it had to be hyperbole, but it's literally happening now.
No, the days of the US being a mecca for global tech workers are over.
No, the days of the US being a mecca for global tech workers are over.
It’s amusing that you acknowledge your comment is hysterical hyperbole preemptively as if that will defeat any rebuttal. Guess I’ll just take your word for it then!
The truth is you still have a far greater chance of getting in trouble for saying the wrong thing in most of Europe than you do anywhere in the US.
Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes.
Maybe one day the 600 million people in Europe will decide to start finally integrating their countries for real and collaborate with each other on building and innovating like the Americans and Chinese. Until then, disjointed euro micro states are sitting ducks for getting stripped of their best talent and companies.
The truth is you still have a far greater chance of getting in trouble for saying the wrong thing in most of Europe than you do anywhere in the US.
Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes.
Maybe one day the 600 million people in Europe will decide to start finally integrating their countries for real and collaborate with each other on building and innovating like the Americans and Chinese. Until then, disjointed euro micro states are sitting ducks for getting stripped of their best talent and companies.
God you are both just awful at making a compelling argument.
So you find ad hominem attacks with zero points of discussion or argument to be more compelling?
> Also, enticing Europeans to move to the US is exceedingly easy. You ask, “do you want to 4X your current salary with 20% less taxes?” The answer is usually yes.
I don't really understand why people make claims like that. To me it's obvious that the vast majority of people are not particularly motivated by money. They would like to have more money, but once they have reached the standard of living common in developed countries, they are not willing to make the kind of life choices that would give them more money.
Finnish nurses are a good example. They would have a better standard of living in Norway. As Finnish citizens, they have a subjective right to live and work there, even stronger than in the EU. The language would be easy to learn. The culture and the society are very similar. And it's close to Finland, making it easy to visit your friends and family any time. But few nurses actually move there, because most people need better reasons than money for moving to another country.
I don't really understand why people make claims like that. To me it's obvious that the vast majority of people are not particularly motivated by money. They would like to have more money, but once they have reached the standard of living common in developed countries, they are not willing to make the kind of life choices that would give them more money.
Finnish nurses are a good example. They would have a better standard of living in Norway. As Finnish citizens, they have a subjective right to live and work there, even stronger than in the EU. The language would be easy to learn. The culture and the society are very similar. And it's close to Finland, making it easy to visit your friends and family any time. But few nurses actually move there, because most people need better reasons than money for moving to another country.
This is ironic since I actually live in Finland, and know exactly how wrong your comment is.
1. Finnish nurses need to learn to speak Norwegian to work there (nursing is not tech, you can't get by speaking english with your 75 year old patients).
2. Finnish and Norwegian are not at all related linguistically. Also, english fluency in the Nordics (and Europe in general) is grossly overstated by Americans whos only experience of Europe was spending a few months in a capital city with international students doing an exchange at Uni. English fluency declines dramatically among the general population each kilometer you move outside the capital and away from workers at international companies (same can be said for fluency decline by old age).
3. Nurses make only marginally more in Norway than they do in Finland, and when adjusting for cost of living (which is higher in Norway), depending on where you live you could make less. Best case you're looking at an extra 15,000 euro per year (with high taxes on that extra amount). Not an extra 300,000 per year with dramatically lower taxes like a talented engineer moving to the US would get. One is an actual opportunity to build financial independence. The other is a few bucks to piss away on a slightly nicer holiday.
4. Nurses in Finland are predominantly female (92%), and females are less likely than males to move countries for a job (not by a ton, but relevant for this analysis).
Even considering (4), I can assure you with 100% certainty, that if there were no language barrier and a nurse in Norway could make 350,000 euros per year you would see Finnish nurses making the move en masse. Finnish women are not stupid.
1. Finnish nurses need to learn to speak Norwegian to work there (nursing is not tech, you can't get by speaking english with your 75 year old patients).
2. Finnish and Norwegian are not at all related linguistically. Also, english fluency in the Nordics (and Europe in general) is grossly overstated by Americans whos only experience of Europe was spending a few months in a capital city with international students doing an exchange at Uni. English fluency declines dramatically among the general population each kilometer you move outside the capital and away from workers at international companies (same can be said for fluency decline by old age).
3. Nurses make only marginally more in Norway than they do in Finland, and when adjusting for cost of living (which is higher in Norway), depending on where you live you could make less. Best case you're looking at an extra 15,000 euro per year (with high taxes on that extra amount). Not an extra 300,000 per year with dramatically lower taxes like a talented engineer moving to the US would get. One is an actual opportunity to build financial independence. The other is a few bucks to piss away on a slightly nicer holiday.
4. Nurses in Finland are predominantly female (92%), and females are less likely than males to move countries for a job (not by a ton, but relevant for this analysis).
Even considering (4), I can assure you with 100% certainty, that if there were no language barrier and a nurse in Norway could make 350,000 euros per year you would see Finnish nurses making the move en masse. Finnish women are not stupid.
And I'm from Finland.
Nurse salaries have been a major talking point for decades. While only a small fraction of nurses move to Norway, it's still enough people that it gets mentioned in the news once in a while. Especially around elections.
The official languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish. If you speak one as a native language, you must learn the other. If you work as a nurse in Finland, it's quite likely that you have to use Swedish at work. At least occasionally. If you are comfortable doing that, learning Norwegian is not such a big deal.
I studied computer science and eventually ended up in the US. And I'm still here after a surprisingly long time. Based on what I have personally seen, Finns who move to the US for work are less likely to stay than those who move to Sweden, UK, or Switzerland. The culture is just too different. And if you have kids, the salaries are not actually that high. The consensus seems to be that for those with kids, 300k in the US is worth about as much as 100k in Finland. At least in the areas where immigrants with nominally high salaries are likely to live.
Nurse salaries have been a major talking point for decades. While only a small fraction of nurses move to Norway, it's still enough people that it gets mentioned in the news once in a while. Especially around elections.
The official languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish. If you speak one as a native language, you must learn the other. If you work as a nurse in Finland, it's quite likely that you have to use Swedish at work. At least occasionally. If you are comfortable doing that, learning Norwegian is not such a big deal.
I studied computer science and eventually ended up in the US. And I'm still here after a surprisingly long time. Based on what I have personally seen, Finns who move to the US for work are less likely to stay than those who move to Sweden, UK, or Switzerland. The culture is just too different. And if you have kids, the salaries are not actually that high. The consensus seems to be that for those with kids, 300k in the US is worth about as much as 100k in Finland. At least in the areas where immigrants with nominally high salaries are likely to live.
I have lived in both countries, and 300K in the US goes much further than 100k in Finland (we're talking FIRE money vs. paycheck-to-paycheck living). The people saying this are likely Nokia transfers who only have experience living in Silicon Valley.
300K as a family in even midwestern US cities (far cheaper than the coasts) is not crazy for a college educated couple. My US friends and entire extended family earns roughly 100-150Kish per year living in the US midwest (so roughly 300k household income per couple, yet at much lower tax rates).
On this salary they afford childcare, houses 2-3X the size of the average Finnish house in Metro-Helsinki (not kidding), expensive vacations, two new cars, fantastic health insurance via employer, and maxing out retirement accounts -- which has MASSIVE benefits over the Finnish pension system where the government takes control of your money and invests it in crap 0% yielding bonds. I personally know many US couples who are liquid millionaires already by their mid 40s just from working normal jobs w/ 401ks, and much of this is tax free wealth that importantly, they have full control over.
In Espoo/Helsinki/Vantaa, 100k household income gets your family a tiny 3-bed row house, one used Passat, a trip to the canary islands, and yes government childcare/healthcare. The main difference though, the Finnish family making 100k never accrues any actual wealth or sizable investment assets like stocks (And even if they did, government eats 20% more than in the US with higher cap gains tax). They will never reach financial independence. They will be begging the future austerity government for permission to retire at 70 (age keeps going up, so not unlikely). Hopefully the economy doesn't keep stagnating and the population doesn't keep declining, because it's not even really their money, it can easily be squandered by the collective.
300K as a family in even midwestern US cities (far cheaper than the coasts) is not crazy for a college educated couple. My US friends and entire extended family earns roughly 100-150Kish per year living in the US midwest (so roughly 300k household income per couple, yet at much lower tax rates).
On this salary they afford childcare, houses 2-3X the size of the average Finnish house in Metro-Helsinki (not kidding), expensive vacations, two new cars, fantastic health insurance via employer, and maxing out retirement accounts -- which has MASSIVE benefits over the Finnish pension system where the government takes control of your money and invests it in crap 0% yielding bonds. I personally know many US couples who are liquid millionaires already by their mid 40s just from working normal jobs w/ 401ks, and much of this is tax free wealth that importantly, they have full control over.
In Espoo/Helsinki/Vantaa, 100k household income gets your family a tiny 3-bed row house, one used Passat, a trip to the canary islands, and yes government childcare/healthcare. The main difference though, the Finnish family making 100k never accrues any actual wealth or sizable investment assets like stocks (And even if they did, government eats 20% more than in the US with higher cap gains tax). They will never reach financial independence. They will be begging the future austerity government for permission to retire at 70 (age keeps going up, so not unlikely). Hopefully the economy doesn't keep stagnating and the population doesn't keep declining, because it's not even really their money, it can easily be squandered by the collective.
We are talking about immigrants, not US citizens. If you come to the US in the normal H-1B to green card pipeline, your employer decides where you are allowed to live. Which is usually in an area with very expensive housing.
You have more options once you get a green card. But with the initial uncertainty and delays in getting H-1B, the employer choosing not to sponsor a green card immediately, and the years of bureaucracy for getting the green card, that can easily be a decade after the initial offer. Which is plenty for people who don't particularly like the American culture to decide to go to somewhere with lower salaries, lower costs, and more freedom to make your own choices.
You are comparing the most expensive area in Finland to areas you consider cheap in the US. But from a Finnish immigrant's perspective, the reasonable comparison would be the opposite. You are forced to live in an expensive area in the US, but if you return to Finland, you can choose a cheaper city. €100k/year would be close to the median for a family with kids in Helsinki but a pretty good income in other cities.
You have more options once you get a green card. But with the initial uncertainty and delays in getting H-1B, the employer choosing not to sponsor a green card immediately, and the years of bureaucracy for getting the green card, that can easily be a decade after the initial offer. Which is plenty for people who don't particularly like the American culture to decide to go to somewhere with lower salaries, lower costs, and more freedom to make your own choices.
You are comparing the most expensive area in Finland to areas you consider cheap in the US. But from a Finnish immigrant's perspective, the reasonable comparison would be the opposite. You are forced to live in an expensive area in the US, but if you return to Finland, you can choose a cheaper city. €100k/year would be close to the median for a family with kids in Helsinki but a pretty good income in other cities.
> To me it's obvious that the vast majority of people are not particularly motivated by money.
Are you sure we are living in the same world?
Also the example you provide is not pertinent. There is a reason why Software devs move the most. There are barriers for other professions. It is not easy to move as a doctor, lawyer, civil servant, etc...
Are you sure we are living in the same world?
Also the example you provide is not pertinent. There is a reason why Software devs move the most. There are barriers for other professions. It is not easy to move as a doctor, lawyer, civil servant, etc...
Software developers are often the ones who move back. When you can have good enough standard of living anywhere, you may start paying attention on where you actually want to live.
The best predictor for moving permanently to another country for work seems to be a PhD. Jobs are scarce in the academia. And even if you are in the industry, you are probably the kind of person looking for the most interesting jobs.
The best predictor for moving permanently to another country for work seems to be a PhD. Jobs are scarce in the academia. And even if you are in the industry, you are probably the kind of person looking for the most interesting jobs.
I think you overestimate that. In the end, I'm sure there will be still a lot of people willing to go, who maybe ignore politics and so on. Salaries in USA are just that much higher, especially if you're an expert in your field.
Are you talking about the Turkish grad student at Tufts who got arrested and deported to Louisiana recently?
>Good luck finding people willing to immigrate to the USA at this point
My German boss just moved to the US. He really loves it there. He said he's also getting better healthcare for his child which has some rare form of autism or something, at which only the US has invested into research and cures at this point.
Edit: why the salty replies?
My German boss just moved to the US. He really loves it there. He said he's also getting better healthcare for his child which has some rare form of autism or something, at which only the US has invested into research and cures at this point.
Edit: why the salty replies?
No doubt this is true in this specific case, but does this example extrapolate to the general case?
The original point was that given the US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech, would the average highly qualified immigrant be more or less predisposed to want to immigrate.
This is made worse by the fact that there appears to be no goal to all this beyond intimidation and chilling effect. Even if you deported every single Palestine protester it would make a zero impact on the stated policy goals of mass deportation of illegal immigrants. None of the recent high profile protester cases were in the country illegally. They simply stated their opinion, and in one case, in an op ed for the student newspaper.
Note that the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers. So, when a smart software engineer in Europe sees that the current US president is willing to crush the most fundamental of civil liberties to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants, which will in no way do anything to meet his stated policy objectives, what do you think that engineer is likely to conclude?
The original point was that given the US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech, would the average highly qualified immigrant be more or less predisposed to want to immigrate.
This is made worse by the fact that there appears to be no goal to all this beyond intimidation and chilling effect. Even if you deported every single Palestine protester it would make a zero impact on the stated policy goals of mass deportation of illegal immigrants. None of the recent high profile protester cases were in the country illegally. They simply stated their opinion, and in one case, in an op ed for the student newspaper.
Note that the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers. So, when a smart software engineer in Europe sees that the current US president is willing to crush the most fundamental of civil liberties to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants, which will in no way do anything to meet his stated policy objectives, what do you think that engineer is likely to conclude?
>US government's openly hostile attitude towards immigrants who simply exercised free speech
Source for such claims please? German and UK governments are even more authoritarian on free speech. You can get arrested for a tweet insulting a politician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc
>the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers
So did Germany and Austria and most of western EU. They were buddy-buddy to Putin in the past for their gas, and now they're buddy-buddy with Azerbaijan who's slaughtering Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh because EU needs their gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict
>to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants
Source for such claims please? How many skilled legal immigrants have been deported or subject to illegal government oppression?
Source for such claims please? German and UK governments are even more authoritarian on free speech. You can get arrested for a tweet insulting a politician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc
>the US has touted freedom of speech frequently and loudly when chastising autocratic foreign powers
So did Germany and Austria and most of western EU. They were buddy-buddy to Putin in the past for their gas, and now they're buddy-buddy with Azerbaijan who's slaughtering Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh because EU needs their gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict
>to make examples of a handful of legal immigrants
Source for such claims please? How many skilled legal immigrants have been deported or subject to illegal government oppression?
> Source for such claims please?
There have been many such cases in the news recently: Mahmoud Khalil, Rumeysa Ozturk, Yunseo Chung, Momodou Taal...
According to US Sectary of State Marco Rubio, the Trump administration is currently seeking to deport over 300 students, purely for criticizing Israel. None of them has been accused of any crime. The Trump administration calls anyone who protests against Israel a Hamas supporter and terrorist, cancels their visa, and tries to deport them.
There have been many such cases in the news recently: Mahmoud Khalil, Rumeysa Ozturk, Yunseo Chung, Momodou Taal...
According to US Sectary of State Marco Rubio, the Trump administration is currently seeking to deport over 300 students, purely for criticizing Israel. None of them has been accused of any crime. The Trump administration calls anyone who protests against Israel a Hamas supporter and terrorist, cancels their visa, and tries to deport them.
>There have been many such cases in the news recently: Mahmoud Khalil, Rumeysa Ozturk, Yunseo Chung, Momodou Taal...
Coming to a country to incite domestic terrorism or vocally support terrorist groups, gets you in trouble with the law in any country.
If you move to Germany/France/etc and occupy a university campus in support of Palestine, the police will drag you away and you will get deported.
Coming to a country to incite domestic terrorism or vocally support terrorist groups, gets you in trouble with the law in any country.
If you move to Germany/France/etc and occupy a university campus in support of Palestine, the police will drag you away and you will get deported.
None of them did anything even remotely similar to "inciting domestic terrorism" or "vocally support[ing] terrorist groups" (though the latter would actually be protected by the 1st Amendment).
If they had been in any way involved with domestic terrorism, then they could be charged, sentenced, and probably deported as a consequence. But what they actually did was peacefully protest, write Op-Eds, and generally speak their minds. That's 100% covered by the 1st Amendment.
The Trump administration hasn't charged these students with anything. It's asserting the right to deport legal immigrants purely based on their political opinions, which is an obvious breach of the 1st Amendment.
If they had been in any way involved with domestic terrorism, then they could be charged, sentenced, and probably deported as a consequence. But what they actually did was peacefully protest, write Op-Eds, and generally speak their minds. That's 100% covered by the 1st Amendment.
The Trump administration hasn't charged these students with anything. It's asserting the right to deport legal immigrants purely based on their political opinions, which is an obvious breach of the 1st Amendment.
>None of them did anything even remotely similar to "inciting domestic terrorism" or "vocally support[ing] terrorist groups"
They were political agitators. A visa is a privilege not a right, and may be revoked for any reason, you don't have to commit a crime.
>though the latter would actually be protected by the 1st Amendment
The 1st amendment applies to US citizens, not guests on visas.
Why do you move to a country on a visa and then protest against it? Name me a country who accepts that from its visitors.
A visa to move to a country is a privilege, not a right. If you're protesting the government who gave you that visa and you're not a citizen, then get out, good-bye, nobody wants extra trouble makers, you can legally protest by leaving the country you dislike.
How is this even a conversation? Imagine you invite a guest in your house starting to annoy you the hell out. You'd want them out even though they haven't committed any crimes worth calling the police.
They were political agitators. A visa is a privilege not a right, and may be revoked for any reason, you don't have to commit a crime.
>though the latter would actually be protected by the 1st Amendment
The 1st amendment applies to US citizens, not guests on visas.
Why do you move to a country on a visa and then protest against it? Name me a country who accepts that from its visitors.
A visa to move to a country is a privilege, not a right. If you're protesting the government who gave you that visa and you're not a citizen, then get out, good-bye, nobody wants extra trouble makers, you can legally protest by leaving the country you dislike.
How is this even a conversation? Imagine you invite a guest in your house starting to annoy you the hell out. You'd want them out even though they haven't committed any crimes worth calling the police.
> They were political agitators.
Political agitation is Constitutionally protected in the United States. In fact, it's one of the most important activities that people like Jefferson and Madison wanted to protect.
> A visa is a privilege not a right, and may be revoked for any reason
No, it cannot be revoked for any reason. Revoking visas because of Constitutionally protected speech is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment. The government is not allowed to retaliate against people (not just citizens - anyone) for speech.
> Name me a country who accepts that from its visitors .
Every liberal democracy.
> nobody wants extra trouble makers
Nobody wants fascists, but we're not kicking you out.
> Imagine you invite a guest in your house
This isn't your house. It's the United States of America. There are laws and Constitutional rights. If you don't like it, how about you go somewhere more suited to your tastes - somewhere without freedom of speech and due process.
Political agitation is Constitutionally protected in the United States. In fact, it's one of the most important activities that people like Jefferson and Madison wanted to protect.
> A visa is a privilege not a right, and may be revoked for any reason
No, it cannot be revoked for any reason. Revoking visas because of Constitutionally protected speech is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment. The government is not allowed to retaliate against people (not just citizens - anyone) for speech.
> Name me a country who accepts that from its visitors .
Every liberal democracy.
> nobody wants extra trouble makers
Nobody wants fascists, but we're not kicking you out.
> Imagine you invite a guest in your house
This isn't your house. It's the United States of America. There are laws and Constitutional rights. If you don't like it, how about you go somewhere more suited to your tastes - somewhere without freedom of speech and due process.
It's the classic case of the US being great when you've got a lot of money. Which is why a company full of highly skilled engineers threatening to relocate to the US isn't an empty threat. These are exactly the kinds of people who would have a pretty good life there, so I doubt they'd find any issue bringing many along.
Doesn't have to be the US. Switzerland is also a magnet for top companies and skilled people, especially the German ones, due to language and culture similitudes in some regions but with less taxes and red tape and higher standard of living.
And of course highly skilled people who work hard, want to be in a place that compensates them highly for their efforts, otherwise what's the point of busting your ass for decades if you're gonna be getting the same mediocre quality services as people on minimum wage?
And of course highly skilled people who work hard, want to be in a place that compensates them highly for their efforts, otherwise what's the point of busting your ass for decades if you're gonna be getting the same mediocre quality services as people on minimum wage?
> My German boss just moved to the US. he's also getting better healthcare for his child
This "better healthcare" will be true in the USA, for about 1 or 2% of top earners.
This "better healthcare" will be true in the USA, for about 1 or 2% of top earners.
I have to wait 3 weeks for a doctor appointment in my utopian European nation. I also have to pay for it since I earn too much money after being taxed >40% on my slightly-over-us-median income.
Thankfully I’m not in need of dental surgery, else I would be waiting 4 years.
I doubt anywhere in the USA is that bad. To me it looks like health insurance is baked into the cost of living. Obviously bad for poor people and should be addressed but I imagine anyone on the median wage should be fine?
I doubt anywhere in the USA is that bad. To me it looks like health insurance is baked into the cost of living. Obviously bad for poor people and should be addressed but I imagine anyone on the median wage should be fine?
Not sure why you're being downvoted for sharing your experience and opinion. Nobody even bother to comment on it.
Welp that funding is likely gone. Hope they already discovered everything his son needs.
Historically yes, the US has been the global leader for more “bespoke” medical needs.
Historically yes, the US has been the global leader for more “bespoke” medical needs.
clearly he was planning this move ahead of time with one goal in mind, that is to get specialized help for his kid thanks to amounts of money he has
of course he would be happy with this move even if "normal" people would burn around him because he and his family is shielded and have gold parachute that allows him to go back to eu within hours
of course he would be happy with this move even if "normal" people would burn around him because he and his family is shielded and have gold parachute that allows him to go back to eu within hours
People working hard their whole lives in order to provide a better than average life for their own families and children? WOW, how dare they?!
What? You realise that even in say, Europe, for example in France, parties like Le Front National get almost half of the votes? Germany also has a lot of voters for their own extreme right wing parties.
I know it might seem weird when you are in a hive mind but a lot of people do agree with whatever trump does. Even in places where you'd expect them not to. I'm in Morocco for example right now and most people either I've talked to are either ambivalent or slightly like Trump (or dislike him due to his position on Gaza, but Biden was even worse in terms of total inaction).
But I won't blame people for thinking that whatever is popular on Reddit or Blue sky actually is a majority opinion, just because of how insanely one sided and dramatic those places and people who spend a lot of time there tend to be. It's really brain rot inducing.
I know it might seem weird when you are in a hive mind but a lot of people do agree with whatever trump does. Even in places where you'd expect them not to. I'm in Morocco for example right now and most people either I've talked to are either ambivalent or slightly like Trump (or dislike him due to his position on Gaza, but Biden was even worse in terms of total inaction).
But I won't blame people for thinking that whatever is popular on Reddit or Blue sky actually is a majority opinion, just because of how insanely one sided and dramatic those places and people who spend a lot of time there tend to be. It's really brain rot inducing.
This is what people mean by "polarisation". Parties (and party members) are less defined by what they stand for and more, A LOT more, by that they hate each other. On fox news this is easy to see ("Far left threatens European peace treaty ..."), but in reality you see similar things on the right part ("The brazen hypocrisy of the right's Tesla protest outrage ...")
Both parties are trying to demonize each other. Biden did not fuck up the country with communism, obviously. But Trump is not hitler ...
Meanwhile I've seen democrats spit on other democrats because they were pro-Israel. It's not just on the right. And then you read about republicans responding to someone's wife getting deported by stating she deserved it. Fucking hell, where are we going?
People need to come together again. And yes, Trump is not making that easy, but it is the way forward.
Here I am. I am pro-Israel, I can even defend Netanyahu (well, his actions in a war defending Israel, where I have issues is him turning authoritarian). I am pro-Ukraine, pro-EU-US cooperation. I am anti-deportation (isn't everyone?) and pro-science. I am anti-mass-layoffs in government. I DO see the democrats as the party of the rich (WHY are they doing this btw? Are these people morons? If Trump manages to get the poor on his side, even with lies, and the democrats keep doing their poor=dumb thing, even when it's true, the democrats will lose every time). I was an Obama democrat (and since didn't vote).
Where should I go, if I don't want to be attacked.
Both parties are trying to demonize each other. Biden did not fuck up the country with communism, obviously. But Trump is not hitler ...
Meanwhile I've seen democrats spit on other democrats because they were pro-Israel. It's not just on the right. And then you read about republicans responding to someone's wife getting deported by stating she deserved it. Fucking hell, where are we going?
People need to come together again. And yes, Trump is not making that easy, but it is the way forward.
Here I am. I am pro-Israel, I can even defend Netanyahu (well, his actions in a war defending Israel, where I have issues is him turning authoritarian). I am pro-Ukraine, pro-EU-US cooperation. I am anti-deportation (isn't everyone?) and pro-science. I am anti-mass-layoffs in government. I DO see the democrats as the party of the rich (WHY are they doing this btw? Are these people morons? If Trump manages to get the poor on his side, even with lies, and the democrats keep doing their poor=dumb thing, even when it's true, the democrats will lose every time). I was an Obama democrat (and since didn't vote).
Where should I go, if I don't want to be attacked.
I’m trying to move there. And that is a hyperbole. It’s a tiny amount of cases being reported by the media as being de facto what’s happening.
It’s the same with all of the so-called travel warnings issued by some Western countries. The “warnings” were literally just to have your paperwork in order I.e., obey the law and don’t overstay your visa. It’s far more strict than previous admins but certainly nothing that would deter me from moving there (just yet) at least.
I don’t think Americans have any idea how good they have it under any administration, especially if they are in tech. The lauded benefits of Europe are grossly exaggerated for the most part.
It’s the same with all of the so-called travel warnings issued by some Western countries. The “warnings” were literally just to have your paperwork in order I.e., obey the law and don’t overstay your visa. It’s far more strict than previous admins but certainly nothing that would deter me from moving there (just yet) at least.
I don’t think Americans have any idea how good they have it under any administration, especially if they are in tech. The lauded benefits of Europe are grossly exaggerated for the most part.
Tiny is not zero. Our founding fathers believed that it was better for guilty people to go free than for one innocent to be detained.
Well it depends on what you are referring to. If it’s people not being allowed into the US for various reasons I don’t think that has anything to do with the constitution. But yeah obviously these people being rounded up and being sent to Ecuador and whatnot definitely seems to fly in the face of the founding fathers
> obey the law and don’t overstay your visa
Khalil and Ozturk broke zero laws and had permanent residency. They are now in jail essentially forever simply because the administration doesn't like what they were saying.
Khalil and Ozturk broke zero laws and had permanent residency. They are now in jail essentially forever simply because the administration doesn't like what they were saying.
Agree completely. I was referring more about entry to the US in the first place.
I suppose the current admin doesn’t believe the first amendment applies to non-citizens. I think I saw that judges are trying to block it. Do they have a point? Does the second amendment apply for non-citizens?
I suppose the current admin doesn’t believe the first amendment applies to non-citizens. I think I saw that judges are trying to block it. Do they have a point? Does the second amendment apply for non-citizens?
The entire Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments) applies to everyone, not just citizens.
The Bill of Rights never mentions citizens. It was formulated as a set of restrictions on what the federal government is allowed to do. The government shall not censor opinions. The government shall not establish a national religion. The government shall not jail anyone without due process. And so on. The Bill of Rights doesn't contain any clause like, "... except for non-citizens."
What Trump is trying to do flies in the face of more than two centuries of Constitutional practice.
The Bill of Rights never mentions citizens. It was formulated as a set of restrictions on what the federal government is allowed to do. The government shall not censor opinions. The government shall not establish a national religion. The government shall not jail anyone without due process. And so on. The Bill of Rights doesn't contain any clause like, "... except for non-citizens."
What Trump is trying to do flies in the face of more than two centuries of Constitutional practice.
Honestly, and cynically: it doesn't matter at this point. You can't put that genie back in the bottle. We can now take political prisoners in the US, and it won't stop at these two. Realistically it won't stop with this administration.
The tools are too useful and too tempting.
Did you even read the article? ASML is chaffing against American-led export regulations. The Trump government is still very keen on restricting China’s ability to make cutting edge chips.
The threat to move is probably empty. But it’s not a threat to move to the place that is generating their head winds.
The threat to move is probably empty. But it’s not a threat to move to the place that is generating their head winds.
"the Dutch government’s willingness to follow America’s lead on export bans" is obviously the main problem. What kind of lever do the US possess on the dutch?
The EUV "lightbulb" was invented in the US and the patents are owned by the US government.
For the Dutch to allow ASML to ignore those patents would create a technology economic war between the US and EU.
I guess ASML could try and invent a different way to generate the EUV, but nobody has don't that yet - it is an extremely difficult problem (and took many years to find one solution). If those patents are the crux of US control, then presumably ASML will be researching alternatives (citations?).
China has different solutions (in particular China can ignore US patents).
From Wikipedia:
For the Dutch to allow ASML to ignore those patents would create a technology economic war between the US and EU.
I guess ASML could try and invent a different way to generate the EUV, but nobody has don't that yet - it is an extremely difficult problem (and took many years to find one solution). If those patents are the crux of US control, then presumably ASML will be researching alternatives (citations?).
China has different solutions (in particular China can ignore US patents).
From Wikipedia:
To address the challenge of EUV lithography, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US governmentUpdate:
Apparently China is developing its own EUV source.
It would be ironic if ASML licenced new tech from China eh?
Of course it's quite possible that any new Chinese techniques have some relevant patents - the video says that other EUV generation techniques were investigated in Japan and Europe.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rIR3wfZ-EV0
Apparently China is developing its own EUV source.
It would be ironic if ASML licenced new tech from China eh?
Of course it's quite possible that any new Chinese techniques have some relevant patents - the video says that other EUV generation techniques were investigated in Japan and Europe.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rIR3wfZ-EV0
Patents don’t last forever.
Parts of ASML machines are also made in the US. It is more of a globalised supply chain than you might think. And there are patents, etc.
Zeiss in Germany is also an important supplier to ASML.
And the leading-edge fabs are dependent on suppliers other than just ASML: some of these suppliers are US companies that sell very-expensive software.
And the leading-edge fabs are dependent on suppliers other than just ASML: some of these suppliers are US companies that sell very-expensive software.
EU probably should start thinking about its own economical and security interests. Eu is not ready to be a true player at the moment, but at least she can think of ways to balance US and China.
TLDR ASML wants to sell to China but can't. Their share price has fallen due to companies like Intel and Samsung cutting costs and this CEO is looking for other ways of earning his bonus.
ASML (or the EU) actually has leverage over the US, here. This is a key initiative of the current (and past) US administration, but it depends on ASML, and the US isn't close to an alternative.
They mention they rely on some US parts, and the US is in a better position to apply that power and win a game of chicken. ASML is a company, so unlikely to make a moral stand and choose destruction over continuing to do limited business.
Well, yeah, and US hostility towards Europe on top. Why should ASML obey US foreign policy decisions while US doesn't care about ASML?
so just late stage capitalism's pure greed imported to eu
The answer to these corporate threats is and should always be nationalisation. Not the threat of nationalisation, just immediate aquisition by the state.
I am not sure I agree with your take, but one of our era's big questions is whether the economy and/or big enough businesses/industries should be above politics (and the law?). I see the USA and China as extremes in this regard. We shall see.
So, like China, where the state takes over whatever company it feels like?
It probably needs a long hard look at the consequences of such decisions in the long term.
On one hand, it’s authoritarian, on the other hand not doing that might lead to fairly critical businesses becoming unaligned with the interests of the country, or leaving outright.
> What troubles him more is geopolitics. The pressure on asml began to build in 2019, when the Dutch government, at America’s urging, barred the company from exporting its advanced euv machines to China.
On the other hand, this position is understandable and it makes me wonder why the Dutch would do this and keep such limitations in place - especially after seeing how clearly hateful the current US administration is towards the EU.
The EU should look towards ensuring its own prosperity and that includes the interests and the future of the companies within it.
That's a common sense take in my eyes.
On one hand, it’s authoritarian, on the other hand not doing that might lead to fairly critical businesses becoming unaligned with the interests of the country, or leaving outright.
> What troubles him more is geopolitics. The pressure on asml began to build in 2019, when the Dutch government, at America’s urging, barred the company from exporting its advanced euv machines to China.
On the other hand, this position is understandable and it makes me wonder why the Dutch would do this and keep such limitations in place - especially after seeing how clearly hateful the current US administration is towards the EU.
The EU should look towards ensuring its own prosperity and that includes the interests and the future of the companies within it.
That's a common sense take in my eyes.
Current Dutch government is pro-Trump
It seems the narratives against China (or Russia) are starting to dilute. Beyond left and right, it's really about realpolitik, power and its desires. When you're at the top and not fighting for survival, you have the luxury to construct whatever narrative suits your position.
Yes, where appropriate.
I would understand if you’re suggesting this for resource extraction companies (even if I don’t agree with the idea) but how does it work for companies with a lot of intellectual property and know how? If the people want to leave, how are you going to stop them? Authoritarianism? Bring back the worst from the last century and run it back?
The people don't want to leave. Even if the company moves, most of the people won't.
This is a paper exercise that can be resolved once and for all with paper regulations.
This is a paper exercise that can be resolved once and for all with paper regulations.
Historically, State-run companies perform badly, for themselves and also for the economy and market as a whole.
It seems this is because of the implicit State guarantee, and political entanglement and intervention.
It seems this is because of the implicit State guarantee, and political entanglement and intervention.
That's an assertion, not fact.
Certainly, privatisation of state companies across the EU has been a disaster and no efficiency has been gained, so I wonder where the historical record you're reading is?
Certainly, privatisation of state companies across the EU has been a disaster and no efficiency has been gained, so I wonder where the historical record you're reading is?
Worst is the privatized abd heavily subsidized public transport companies.
The answer to such attempts at nationalisation is poison pill clauses.
I bet most companies can survive a management self-destruct.
(Also, while a poison pill threat can be a good management decision, taking the poison pill is a seriously bad management decision. So a government can just bet on that.)
(Also, while a poison pill threat can be a good management decision, taking the poison pill is a seriously bad management decision. So a government can just bet on that.)
"most companies can survive a management self-destruct" — if it is an oil extraction company, maybe. Otherwise, knowledge and processes can be easily destroyed for good.
If the company can survive then it just means you need to make the poison pill stronger.
Would actually help most places than hinder, I think.
I suggest you read the EU Takeover Directive and the associated transposition into NL law. Such shareholder rights plans aren't commonly legal outside the US.
[deleted]
... and letting them sell to China, if only to piss off the White House
buckle8017(2)
The ASML article is hinting that Europe should fab more of its own ICs. Most of ASML's equipment is exported, not used within Europe. It's not that ASML wants to leave Europe. It's that they need more European customers.
Other articles in those two issues cover how Europe is starting to respond to American isolationism and Russian aggression. US threats to pull out of NATO are taken seriously, and contingency plans for a post-US NATO are underway. It looks like France will provide the nuclear deterrent. France's nuclear weapons program is not dependent on the US, but the UK's is. Further acquisition of US fighter aircraft is now much less likely. There's a concern that the F-35 is too "cloud enabled" and dependent on US data sources. The Swedish Gripen is looking like a better option. Efforts to replace US satellite dependency are underway, with recent launches on Ariane boosters from French Guiana. Reduction of EU dependence on the US internet is progressing. All the countries with borders facing Russia or Ukraine have upped military spending considerably. There's debate from the countries further from the front line on how much they have to.
Decades-old alliances and trade patterns are shifting. Europe has less of a problem with China than the US does. Russia is much closer, has caused trouble for a century, and there's a lot of bad history there. The US has a long history with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, but Europe does not. Nor does Europe have any obligations to Israel, which helps when getting along with the Arab world.
Read more non-US sources on what's happening. Huge, slow changes are underway.