Financial lessons from my family's experience with long-term care insurance(whitecoatinvestor.com)
whitecoatinvestor.com
Financial lessons from my family's experience with long-term care insurance
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/financial-lessons-father-long-term-care-insurance/
209 comments
Healthcare is little more than a jobs program at this point.
I believe it is the largest industry by employment in every single state now.
That compounds the problem even further. Really fixing it would put a double digit percentage of people out of work. I'm all for it, but I can see why politicians are hesitant.
I believe it is the largest industry by employment in every single state now.
That compounds the problem even further. Really fixing it would put a double digit percentage of people out of work. I'm all for it, but I can see why politicians are hesitant.
> Really fixing it would put a double digit percentage of people out of work. I'm all for it, but I can see why politicians are hesitant.
I'd love to hear what you think "really fixing it" is, please share.
I can report that all (almost all?) of the hospitals and their networks both big and small in the area I am in have had layoffs this year of admin staff and healthcare professionals (nurses, doctors, etc). They have reduced bed counts, and cut programs and treatment options available. All of this was done in the name of the "affordability crisis" and is kind of like the 3rd wave of this kind of consolidation, belt-tightening behavior. And..prices haven't gone down, and they keep cutting.
I'd love to hear what you think "really fixing it" is, please share.
I can report that all (almost all?) of the hospitals and their networks both big and small in the area I am in have had layoffs this year of admin staff and healthcare professionals (nurses, doctors, etc). They have reduced bed counts, and cut programs and treatment options available. All of this was done in the name of the "affordability crisis" and is kind of like the 3rd wave of this kind of consolidation, belt-tightening behavior. And..prices haven't gone down, and they keep cutting.
I don't know all the answers, but I can tell you that cutting doctors and services is not what I had in mind. Mainly the behemoth that is everything tangential to that, namely insurance and pharma, for two. I worked on the insurance side(in tech), and most people wouldn't believe the number of people involved between the doctor getting money from the patient.
On the contrary of your statement, I would also do everything I could to allow more (capable, of course) people to become doctors each year, though I'm not sure what all that would entail. It feels criminal to me that we limit residency while a) every doctor I've ever visited is way oversubscribed and in a hurry, and b) specialist appointments are months out.
On the contrary of your statement, I would also do everything I could to allow more (capable, of course) people to become doctors each year, though I'm not sure what all that would entail. It feels criminal to me that we limit residency while a) every doctor I've ever visited is way oversubscribed and in a hurry, and b) specialist appointments are months out.
Ok, I pretty much agree with everything you suggest.
Browsing HN has conditioned me to react to sentiment like "healthcare...it's a jobs program...solve it by putting people out of work (the market will magically fix it)" to essentially be code for "I support continued abuse and further deprivations against the poor"
Browsing HN has conditioned me to react to sentiment like "healthcare...it's a jobs program...solve it by putting people out of work (the market will magically fix it)" to essentially be code for "I support continued abuse and further deprivations against the poor"
Healthcare is one of the rare examples where pretty much any reasonable-sounding change probably can't help but make things better.
Get rid of Pharma and there will be zero new drugs or treatments ever again. Have fun with that.
In the UK, with the NHS, it seems the focus of the NHS became management, rather than clinical care. One example I read of stuck with me; a superb nurse, who ran her ward extremely well, had to leave clinical nursing because as a career path, it was a dead end. She had to move into management, and her former ward descended into chaos.
NHS budget has last I knew increased many times over since 1948, but the bed count went from about 450k down to about 100k - and those numbers were from more than ten years ago.
A theory is presented to explain this, which is that the more money you put in, the more management you get, and the more management you get, the less time clinical staff have for clinical work; more money results in less clinical output - but more managerial output, which theory argues is the primary focus and product of NHS.
NHS budget has last I knew increased many times over since 1948, but the bed count went from about 450k down to about 100k - and those numbers were from more than ten years ago.
A theory is presented to explain this, which is that the more money you put in, the more management you get, and the more management you get, the less time clinical staff have for clinical work; more money results in less clinical output - but more managerial output, which theory argues is the primary focus and product of NHS.
This problem is far broader than health care. Doesn't matter whether your actual "product" is hospital wards, sheet steel, romance novels, or mowed lawns - if your sector of the economy is not structured to have draconian penalties for bloated management/bureaucracy/overhead, then it will quickly develop ever-worsening bloat. Because it's always quicker & easier to scale up the desks & paperwork. And guess who makes the decisions about where to allocate resources?
Seems like large tech companies never have a shortage of management.
Between the matrix style organizational structure and the many layers (project manager, program manager, director, VP, senior VP, BU president, etc…), I would love to know what, if anything, the higher levels actually DO.
Between the matrix style organizational structure and the many layers (project manager, program manager, director, VP, senior VP, BU president, etc…), I would love to know what, if anything, the higher levels actually DO.
> I would love to know what, if anything, the higher levels actually DO.
In many org's, they mostly compete with other higher-levels for status.
And the biggest signifiers of status are usually (1) how many lower-level managers ultimately report to you, and (2) how many layers those lower-level managers span.
In many org's, they mostly compete with other higher-levels for status.
And the biggest signifiers of status are usually (1) how many lower-level managers ultimately report to you, and (2) how many layers those lower-level managers span.
Shouldn't it be the margin on whatever product your division works on? How does bloat fly in a "capitalist" economy?
I have a perspective shift that may help: Physicians are the peak of blue-collar work.
Yes, a lot of physician work involves diagnoses; but it also involves getting one’s hand dirty. Hospitals are the peak of shop and factory work.
My wife, who worked as an RN in the OR is far handier with shop tools than I am as it’s time-sensitive physical labor!
Meanwhile the jobs program are all of the white collar variety; jobs that purport to support our healthcare workers includes 100% of the health insurance companies and programs.
Thanks to a generational messaging since the 1980s and 1990s, we white collar workers have wormed our way into all aspects of industry.
Yes, a lot of physician work involves diagnoses; but it also involves getting one’s hand dirty. Hospitals are the peak of shop and factory work.
My wife, who worked as an RN in the OR is far handier with shop tools than I am as it’s time-sensitive physical labor!
Meanwhile the jobs program are all of the white collar variety; jobs that purport to support our healthcare workers includes 100% of the health insurance companies and programs.
Thanks to a generational messaging since the 1980s and 1990s, we white collar workers have wormed our way into all aspects of industry.
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Beyond it being normally weird, that's a very weird thing to do.
With the aging population, we'll need more and more health care professionals. I'm not just referring to people over 60, even people 40 upwards require more care.
With the aging population, we'll need more and more health care professionals. I'm not just referring to people over 60, even people 40 upwards require more care.
I am not trying to start any sort of political discussion. However, I do not think many of the layoffs that have hit healthcare workers are due to maximizing profits for hospitals nor due to the lack of demand for healthcare.
If I am not mistaken, the current administration has enacted changes that have caused a significant reduction in federal grant funding for hospitals. So, many of the layoffs, as I understand it, are to make up for the coming losses in funding.
I live in a state with plenty of rural areas. There are growing fears of some rural hospitals being forced to completely shut down due to funding cuts.
If I am not mistaken, the current administration has enacted changes that have caused a significant reduction in federal grant funding for hospitals. So, many of the layoffs, as I understand it, are to make up for the coming losses in funding.
I live in a state with plenty of rural areas. There are growing fears of some rural hospitals being forced to completely shut down due to funding cuts.
> I'd love to hear what you think "really fixing it" is, please share.
I'm not that poster, but there's a really easy fix: Just model the system after Hong Kong's.
There's a tax-funded public system available to every citizen, so that everybody gets treatment. In practice, this is mostly utilized by the poor, and for emergencies like broken bones. You can see specialists via the public system, but there can be a wait of weeks to months. This is all effectively free. You'll never see a bill, or the bill will be extremely small. (e.g., $100 for four days of inpatient care.)
There's a private system for those willing to pay. This is unrestrained capitalism with little regulation and no parasitic middlemen. Want to see a specialist right now -- like later this afternoon, or first thing tomorrow morning? Sure. It'll usually be $200 or $300 out of pocket. No insurance necessarily involved. Diagnostics are also super fast -- same day or next day, usually. If you want an elective surgery, or if you want a superior tier of care (like a nicer hospital room, better food, more flexibility re scheduling,) you can pay for it privately... And usually without getting insurance companies involved.
There is effectively no "prescription" system. With very few exceptions for narcotics and certain stimulants, if you need a drug of any kind, you can buy it OTC. This includes steroids, weird nootropics, viagra (lol at needing a prescription for this), and all kinds of stuff. This vastly reduces the burden on the system.
Hong Kong's system is superior in every respect, and it's especially better at treating you like an adult. The American system is simultaneously complex and infantilizing.
I'm not that poster, but there's a really easy fix: Just model the system after Hong Kong's.
There's a tax-funded public system available to every citizen, so that everybody gets treatment. In practice, this is mostly utilized by the poor, and for emergencies like broken bones. You can see specialists via the public system, but there can be a wait of weeks to months. This is all effectively free. You'll never see a bill, or the bill will be extremely small. (e.g., $100 for four days of inpatient care.)
There's a private system for those willing to pay. This is unrestrained capitalism with little regulation and no parasitic middlemen. Want to see a specialist right now -- like later this afternoon, or first thing tomorrow morning? Sure. It'll usually be $200 or $300 out of pocket. No insurance necessarily involved. Diagnostics are also super fast -- same day or next day, usually. If you want an elective surgery, or if you want a superior tier of care (like a nicer hospital room, better food, more flexibility re scheduling,) you can pay for it privately... And usually without getting insurance companies involved.
There is effectively no "prescription" system. With very few exceptions for narcotics and certain stimulants, if you need a drug of any kind, you can buy it OTC. This includes steroids, weird nootropics, viagra (lol at needing a prescription for this), and all kinds of stuff. This vastly reduces the burden on the system.
Hong Kong's system is superior in every respect, and it's especially better at treating you like an adult. The American system is simultaneously complex and infantilizing.
Aside from the prescription part, this is exactly 1:1 how it works in the US. I say this having myself and my family utilize all of it extensively, public tax-funded emergency treatment, inpatient coverage, private doctors and specialists.
The public system in Hong Kong doesn't really cost anything. It's not that you get costs "waived" if you whine hard enough that you ought to be a charity case (which, by the way, is degrading,) and it's not that costs are passed on to a middleman. Medical treatment is transparently priced and simply inexpensive -- so it's simply not a cause of bankruptcy in Hong Kong, whereas, in the US...
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/medical-b...
Also, perhaps because it's a lot more laissez faire, the private system in Hong Kong is almost unimaginably superior to the private system in the US. It's far cheaper because pricing is transparent and most people pay cash! (Cutting out that middleman.) It's higher quality because there's a lot more competition, rather than collusion among a few major providers.
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/medical-b...
Also, perhaps because it's a lot more laissez faire, the private system in Hong Kong is almost unimaginably superior to the private system in the US. It's far cheaper because pricing is transparent and most people pay cash! (Cutting out that middleman.) It's higher quality because there's a lot more competition, rather than collusion among a few major providers.
Nearly identical with a coat of paint. Every "horror story" I've heard about having to beg with the health system here is tellingly parroted by people who do not have experience with the system. It is the default to get itemized bills when you are insured and the outcome is the same. And again, there is nothing unusual about private care in the US - I pay cash, direct, a small amount monthly, for excellent private care. The ghost people claim to haunt US healthcare is mostly propaganda that for some reason is consumed wholesale by people outside the US who have no stake in it.
You are completely wrong, and I can almost hear in my mind how you think something you are promoting as true, is 'basically true' - but please know there are plenty of people reading HN from afar and may come to expect 'free healthcare in US (just go to the ER!)' from your comments.
No it is not.
Lots of experience with the health system in the US, for me, and helping many other navigate the systems.
It's not even close to identical. If you go to ER here and you can't pay, they may provide you with a certain level of 'care' to 'stabilize you' (as the law says they are supposed to, and the feds send some money to hospitals to cover some of this), and you will get billed, and collections calling, and credit report issues, and threats to sue and have your property auctioned (have held one of these letters in my hand, complete with a list of property that was in my name.
Even worse, the 'care' you may get is normally crap. For example I have seen the same people with same condition, at one hospital get a quick surgery and leave with a colostomy bag for rest of life, and other person at other hospital with insurance get placed in a room and treated for weeks - then left with a warning to avoid seeds.
I have seen so many examples of places leaves humans to rot with no insurance - hospitals.
Even with insurance, you can find yourself waiting 6-8 weeks for a doc appointment. I have so many examples.
No it is not.
Lots of experience with the health system in the US, for me, and helping many other navigate the systems.
It's not even close to identical. If you go to ER here and you can't pay, they may provide you with a certain level of 'care' to 'stabilize you' (as the law says they are supposed to, and the feds send some money to hospitals to cover some of this), and you will get billed, and collections calling, and credit report issues, and threats to sue and have your property auctioned (have held one of these letters in my hand, complete with a list of property that was in my name.
Even worse, the 'care' you may get is normally crap. For example I have seen the same people with same condition, at one hospital get a quick surgery and leave with a colostomy bag for rest of life, and other person at other hospital with insurance get placed in a room and treated for weeks - then left with a warning to avoid seeds.
I have seen so many examples of places leaves humans to rot with no insurance - hospitals.
Even with insurance, you can find yourself waiting 6-8 weeks for a doc appointment. I have so many examples.
On reread: worth noting that the link you provided for some reason includes "missed more than 2 weeks of work" under "medical bankruptcy". I won't dismiss that out of hand without knowing more but that smells bad.
No, it’s not. Yes, we have Medicaid in the U.S., which makes everything free for the poor, but GP is saying that effectively everybody (including the not-so-poor) can get this level of care in Hong Kong. Definitely not true in the U.S.!
Pricing transparency also does not exist here as GP is claiming it does in Hong Kong. I am supposed to get certain imaging tests done every year, and I never know how much those will cost me until after I have already done them (in the U.S.). Maybe there is some way to get a non-binding estimate ahead of time, but I have never received such a thing and am not even sure it is possible. So I can’t easily “shop around”—or if can, tell me how because I (and I think most people) don’t know how.
I most certainly cannot pay $300 to see a specialist the same day in the U.S. I would have to pay that much to see my GP after waiting 6 weeks despite my employer paying more than $20k/year to insure my family. To see a specialist, I would have to wait a few months and probably pay $1-2k for one visit, not counting any tests or imaging that is ordered.
The description of Hong Kong’s system sounds amazing if true.
Pricing transparency also does not exist here as GP is claiming it does in Hong Kong. I am supposed to get certain imaging tests done every year, and I never know how much those will cost me until after I have already done them (in the U.S.). Maybe there is some way to get a non-binding estimate ahead of time, but I have never received such a thing and am not even sure it is possible. So I can’t easily “shop around”—or if can, tell me how because I (and I think most people) don’t know how.
I most certainly cannot pay $300 to see a specialist the same day in the U.S. I would have to pay that much to see my GP after waiting 6 weeks despite my employer paying more than $20k/year to insure my family. To see a specialist, I would have to wait a few months and probably pay $1-2k for one visit, not counting any tests or imaging that is ordered.
The description of Hong Kong’s system sounds amazing if true.
What free health services are available to me that I am unaware of?
How free do you want it? Emergency healthcare is free at point of service in the US. Most other healthcare is covered partially or entirely if you're employed, which you should be. I've had hundreds of thousands of dollars of inpatient medical care for my family that I paid nothing for. Every other metric just starts to deal with the impact of taxes on the definition of free. I'm sure there are countries with systems that are fuzzier feeling to use, but this one works just fine until someone invents infinite unlimited free doctors to replace it.
> Emergency healthcare is free at point of service in the US.
The same as any fancy restaurant meal is free: They gonna bill ya later
The same as any fancy restaurant meal is free: They gonna bill ya later
I agree the US system mostly works for well-employed people.
It is worth recognizing though that not all employed people get medical benefits. Indeed many minimum wage jobs, low income jobs, "casual" jobs etc come with no medical benefits.
It's also worth noting that I some states it's OK to get fired for being sick. At which point you may lose those benefits.
Plus in poor economic times (like being a federal worker right now) losing your medical because you lost your job, seems like a suboptimal outcome.
But I agree with your last statement, this system works just fine, for a large enough group, so there's little political incentive to change it.
It is worth recognizing though that not all employed people get medical benefits. Indeed many minimum wage jobs, low income jobs, "casual" jobs etc come with no medical benefits.
It's also worth noting that I some states it's OK to get fired for being sick. At which point you may lose those benefits.
Plus in poor economic times (like being a federal worker right now) losing your medical because you lost your job, seems like a suboptimal outcome.
But I agree with your last statement, this system works just fine, for a large enough group, so there's little political incentive to change it.
> I believe it is the largest industry by employment in every single state now.
This made be curious, so I looked around. FWIW, healthcare constitutes ~11% of the workforce in the US. It's ~16% in Germany, ~10% in the UK, and ~5% in France.
As a percentage of GDP healthcare is far higher in the US, of course.
This made be curious, so I looked around. FWIW, healthcare constitutes ~11% of the workforce in the US. It's ~16% in Germany, ~10% in the UK, and ~5% in France.
As a percentage of GDP healthcare is far higher in the US, of course.
It's actually a really hard thing to track, and BLS does a poor job of it in my opinion. That 11% covers most but not even all people at a clinic or hospital. It counts people from doctors to records specialist, but not say, janitors or IT, and nothing outside of that like insurance. And that's not necessarily wrong to do, but makes it hard to grasp the whole size.
If you add in everyone in insurance, pharma, devices, and the jobs those support, that number seems to be closer to 17% of the workforce from what I could put together.
Not sure if those in Europe do it similarly, but it just feels like a huge number of people. Maybe that is the result of demographics and a topheavy population, though.
If you add in everyone in insurance, pharma, devices, and the jobs those support, that number seems to be closer to 17% of the workforce from what I could put together.
Not sure if those in Europe do it similarly, but it just feels like a huge number of people. Maybe that is the result of demographics and a topheavy population, though.
It also doesn't count family members providing care for loved ones 'unpaid'.
Nor does it count any of the people who really should have more or better care but don't get it.
Nor does it count any of the people who really should have more or better care but don't get it.
Doubt european numbers count insurance (public or private) pharmacy etc or all the jobs that support healhcare in general (powerplants, construction workers, restaurants, etc)
Well when you get really down to it what is the most important thing in the world? Your health. Not much point being rich if you're in chronic pain.
And thanks to technology and science our first world society's got really good at keeping people alive and relatively comfortable.
And thanks to technology and science our first world society's got really good at keeping people alive and relatively comfortable.
I'm not so sure.
If we fix healthcare costs we can spend more on hospitals. With more hospitals means more jobs and more competitive care costs.
In addition, a lot of those insurance jobs are facing pressure from "AI".
If we fix healthcare costs we can spend more on hospitals. With more hospitals means more jobs and more competitive care costs.
In addition, a lot of those insurance jobs are facing pressure from "AI".
My father's doctor says she doesn't want healthcare reform or more doctors because then their salaries will tank.
This was the reason behind the AMA lobbying for the freeze on federally-funded residency slots back in the mid-90s (which is still being felt today, even after AMA has changed their tune).
We now have noctors, and the physician role is now in danger of becoming supplanted by incompetent mid-levels with better people skills.
I find the real problem is not the doctors, but the hospitals.
For a simple outpatient procedure, the fee from the hospital dwarfs that of the anesthesiologist and surgeon.
For an inpatient stay, the hospital charges thousands of dollars per night for a room! Makes the Ritz Carlton look cheap!
For a simple outpatient procedure, the fee from the hospital dwarfs that of the anesthesiologist and surgeon.
For an inpatient stay, the hospital charges thousands of dollars per night for a room! Makes the Ritz Carlton look cheap!
That is not exclusively an American thing. In my country currently 17% of the workforce is in healthcare. Probably need to start exporting more old folks to 3rd world countries where they can live out their days in resorts.
Or simply let them die when they are too old to survive without most basic automatable care. Say robot dropping food at the door.
To be fair, the NHS is the largest employer is the UK as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_Kingdom...
Keeping people healthy is labour intensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_Kingdom...
Keeping people healthy is labour intensive.
>Really fixing it would put a double digit percentage of people out of work.
Eh, I kind of disagree. It would put a lot of insurance people and hospital admins out of a job, but the boots-on-the-ground providers would be fine.
Eh, I kind of disagree. It would put a lot of insurance people and hospital admins out of a job, but the boots-on-the-ground providers would be fine.
Is it a coincidence that the industries with the most heavy government involvement - health care, education, and housing - are the most messed up with perverse incentives?
Whereas the software industry, with near zero government involvement, has had enormous improvements in function and has pushed the cost to literally zero.
Whereas the software industry, with near zero government involvement, has had enormous improvements in function and has pushed the cost to literally zero.
> Whereas the software industry, with near zero government involvement, has had enormous improvements in function and has pushed the cost to literally zero.
What's most frustrating about this-- just take the poultry industry. To bring the cost to zero, all it would take is a single hacker to steal one government-regulated chicken and click "Copy" in its elusive little context menu[1].
Try telling that to a young person today. If you're like me you'll get the so-called "Gen Z Stare" in response.
1: Assume a 2d chicken.
What's most frustrating about this-- just take the poultry industry. To bring the cost to zero, all it would take is a single hacker to steal one government-regulated chicken and click "Copy" in its elusive little context menu[1].
Try telling that to a young person today. If you're like me you'll get the so-called "Gen Z Stare" in response.
1: Assume a 2d chicken.
Sorry, but I'm completely lost on the chicken point. Would you mind expanding on that just a little more? Is the gov't keeping secret vat-grown super-chickens?
I think they're implying that software is completely unlike healthcare or chickens. One can be multiplied for free but the others cannot, no matter if regulated or not.
When it comes to healthcare, we didn't used to have so much regulation.
And, well, it sucked. People died, black people got injected with radiation, and we experimented on humans.
Ultimately, I don't want poor people to just... die. Because that's bad. So we need some sort of guarantees.
Or, we don't: in which case, I hope you're content scraping bodies off the freeway for free. Someone has to do it if we're not paying for their healthcare and disposal costs. Hope you're not busy next weekend!
And, well, it sucked. People died, black people got injected with radiation, and we experimented on humans.
Ultimately, I don't want poor people to just... die. Because that's bad. So we need some sort of guarantees.
Or, we don't: in which case, I hope you're content scraping bodies off the freeway for free. Someone has to do it if we're not paying for their healthcare and disposal costs. Hope you're not busy next weekend!
> People died, black people got injected with radiation, and we experimented on humans.
Those were experiments done by the government or funded by the government.
Those were experiments done by the government or funded by the government.
I'm just not sure how you get around a private market inevitably letting people die.
If someone can't afford healthcare, and in your vision we should refuse to provide it, then they die. That means, unfortunately, you are advocating for their death.
Which is fine, maybe. Except that we still have to deal with that. If they can't afford to dispose of their own bodies, now what?
No matter how you cut it, we either go back to the government or everything is awful.
Me asking you if you want to scrape bodies off the freeway isnt rhetorical. It might seem that way, because it's so extreme, but that's the reality here.
Someone, somewhere, has to pay for that. We already established that the person themselves cannot do it.
Should it be you? Should it be me? Or should it be everyone? If you answer everyone, congratulations, you've reinvented taxes.
The issue here is that these are already solved problems. Why do you think governments invented taxes hundreds of years ago? To steal from you? Look at the big picture.
If someone can't afford healthcare, and in your vision we should refuse to provide it, then they die. That means, unfortunately, you are advocating for their death.
Which is fine, maybe. Except that we still have to deal with that. If they can't afford to dispose of their own bodies, now what?
No matter how you cut it, we either go back to the government or everything is awful.
Me asking you if you want to scrape bodies off the freeway isnt rhetorical. It might seem that way, because it's so extreme, but that's the reality here.
Someone, somewhere, has to pay for that. We already established that the person themselves cannot do it.
Should it be you? Should it be me? Or should it be everyone? If you answer everyone, congratulations, you've reinvented taxes.
The issue here is that these are already solved problems. Why do you think governments invented taxes hundreds of years ago? To steal from you? Look at the big picture.
Under a free market, medical care will be cheap. There's no particular reason why health care should be so expensive, but every time the government takes it over, that's the result.
Look how cheap your cell phone is, despite the amazing engineering that went into it. Pretty much everyone has a cell phone, both rich and poor.
Look how cheap your cell phone is, despite the amazing engineering that went into it. Pretty much everyone has a cell phone, both rich and poor.
> Under a free market, medical care will be cheap.
This isn't an argument - this is an ideology, a pure faith.
There's no mechanism for this. Some things are just expensive.
Performing a surgery is expensive no matter what. It requires advanced machines and multiple humans with ideally decades of specialized training.
There may be "cheap" surgeries if there's no regulation, in the same way we have cheap shit on Temu - it's junk and doesn't work.
The cell phone reference you made kind of says it all - yes we have cheap cell phones. Most of them are shit.
We don't want shit medicine, shit surgeries, or shit chemotherapy. We want stuff that works.
Also, elephant in the room: products and services are necessarily different.
A phone is a PRODUCT. Medical care is a SERVICE. The difference being cheap products are good, sometimes, cheap services are bad.
We don't want a surgery to cost 100 dollars because that means the doctors are making, like, 2 bucks an hour. Which means we're living in a third world shit hole.
You don't want to live in a third world shit hole, do you? Great, then we're on the same page.
And, elephant number 2: healthcare can never, under any circumstances, be a free market. No matter how hard you try.
When you get sick and need to go to the hospital you might naively think the market of hospitals is thousands. This is wrong. Its actually a monopoly - there is only one hospital you can go to.
This is because of what healthcare is fundamentally - a service to keep you alive. You will go to whatever hospital is closest, because the human will to live transcends markets and even money as a concept.
This means, in a free market, it's not free at all - it's filled with only monopolies who can effectively charge whatever they want - which is exactly what we see.
The only places this doesn't happen is in places in which healthcare is nationalized. Because said countries know a free market is impossible, they don't even try, and they avoid the monopolization that's inevitable.
Some other people will naively point to systems in which there are both public and private options - and note that the private options are cheap and effective.
But that's only the case because of the public options. When private care has to compete with low cost public care, it will be cheap. If you remove that competition by privatizing all healthcare, then they can, once again, effectively charge whatever they want.
This isn't an argument - this is an ideology, a pure faith.
There's no mechanism for this. Some things are just expensive.
Performing a surgery is expensive no matter what. It requires advanced machines and multiple humans with ideally decades of specialized training.
There may be "cheap" surgeries if there's no regulation, in the same way we have cheap shit on Temu - it's junk and doesn't work.
The cell phone reference you made kind of says it all - yes we have cheap cell phones. Most of them are shit.
We don't want shit medicine, shit surgeries, or shit chemotherapy. We want stuff that works.
Also, elephant in the room: products and services are necessarily different.
A phone is a PRODUCT. Medical care is a SERVICE. The difference being cheap products are good, sometimes, cheap services are bad.
We don't want a surgery to cost 100 dollars because that means the doctors are making, like, 2 bucks an hour. Which means we're living in a third world shit hole.
You don't want to live in a third world shit hole, do you? Great, then we're on the same page.
And, elephant number 2: healthcare can never, under any circumstances, be a free market. No matter how hard you try.
When you get sick and need to go to the hospital you might naively think the market of hospitals is thousands. This is wrong. Its actually a monopoly - there is only one hospital you can go to.
This is because of what healthcare is fundamentally - a service to keep you alive. You will go to whatever hospital is closest, because the human will to live transcends markets and even money as a concept.
This means, in a free market, it's not free at all - it's filled with only monopolies who can effectively charge whatever they want - which is exactly what we see.
The only places this doesn't happen is in places in which healthcare is nationalized. Because said countries know a free market is impossible, they don't even try, and they avoid the monopolization that's inevitable.
Some other people will naively point to systems in which there are both public and private options - and note that the private options are cheap and effective.
But that's only the case because of the public options. When private care has to compete with low cost public care, it will be cheap. If you remove that competition by privatizing all healthcare, then they can, once again, effectively charge whatever they want.
Most other advanced nations have nationalized health care which works much better.
The US health care system is broken because health care is a natural monopoly that US free-market ideology dictates be run with (fake) "free markets" with result being a variety of companies profiting by abusing the system.
The US health care system is broken because health care is a natural monopoly that US free-market ideology dictates be run with (fake) "free markets" with result being a variety of companies profiting by abusing the system.
If they're fake free markets then free market ideology doesn't apply.
> health care is a natural monopoly
It obviously isn't, because it wasn't a monopoly before the 1960s when the government got involved in it.
> health care is a natural monopoly
It obviously isn't, because it wasn't a monopoly before the 1960s when the government got involved in it.
It's actually kind of refreshing to use free market lightly regulated medicine. I live in the UK where it's NHS government funded or related but travelling in Asia without insurance you can actually shop around and buy stuff - how much for a doc, how much for an xray etc. It's mostly quite cheap too. If you remove most of the regulatory barriers things work quite well. Obviously doctors and the like should pass exams for competence but I'm not sure you need to restrict it to only x people through y colleges in z country to restrict the supply. If the US said that to practice medicine and all you needed was a medical qualification from any respectable country it could drop costs like 10x I'd guess.
You cannot free market healthcare because quite frankly there is no real profit in this industry.
Yeah even your high net worth client that pays 50k in premiums every year wipes you out when they get some complicated form of cancer.
Edit this actually came up in a videogame called Cyberpunk. A lot of people here on HN consider themselves code wizards indispensable to their employer. Google will replace your multiple sclerosis ass.
Yeah even your high net worth client that pays 50k in premiums every year wipes you out when they get some complicated form of cancer.
Edit this actually came up in a videogame called Cyberpunk. A lot of people here on HN consider themselves code wizards indispensable to their employer. Google will replace your multiple sclerosis ass.
> Most other advanced nations have nationalized health care which works much better.
That's not true by the definition of "nationalization" (government ownership)
Switzerland and Netherlands are entirely private insurance. Most European countries have a public system and private system. It's very common for people to purchase supplemental insurance on top of what the government provides.
That's not true by the definition of "nationalization" (government ownership)
Switzerland and Netherlands are entirely private insurance. Most European countries have a public system and private system. It's very common for people to purchase supplemental insurance on top of what the government provides.
In the case of Switzerland, basic health insurance is provided by private companies but the price is mostly fixed by the Federal government.
Prices do vary between companies but many people just use the official insurance comparison tool and choose the cheapest as the services are completely identical. I'm completely against that system and would prefer a national health insurance like Japan.
Prices do vary between companies but many people just use the official insurance comparison tool and choose the cheapest as the services are completely identical. I'm completely against that system and would prefer a national health insurance like Japan.
other nations get benefits from 1. US subsidizing pharma startups and 2. less people with chronic diseases 3. offer lower quality of care at lower price point 4. import doctors vs solely rely on homegrown
USA is very very good at complicated, cutting edge medical care but not efficient at delivering routine care.
USA is very very good at complicated, cutting edge medical care but not efficient at delivering routine care.
It's complicated, yes, but simplifying somewhat the "US" does not subsidize pharma startups.
Yes, VCs do put money into pharma, but that's private money very much expecting an (overall) profitable return. (Ironically most of that profit comes from Americans who have little or no way to collectively bargain on pricing.)
And yes, for bigger companies, there are tax breaks etc, but most of those are regular tax breaks that any company gets.
I won't get into the chronic disease stats. Other than to say that good primary Healthcare tends to reduce the incidence of chronic diseases.
Quality of care is hard to gauge on a national basis. It's a highly localized product, so experience can be different in very small geographic areas. Equally "quality of care" is s metric with many axies.
Naturally for-profit medical advertises a lot, and they strongly push the "quality of care" message. So the general perception of that is "private is better". How much of that is true, how much is perception, is up for debate. My personal experience (which counts for nothing) having experienced both, is that the standard of medical care is the same. (Fewer tvs in public care though.)
I'm not sure what importing doctors has to do with anything, or if it's even true. Personally I don't really care where a Dr is from.
Yes, VCs do put money into pharma, but that's private money very much expecting an (overall) profitable return. (Ironically most of that profit comes from Americans who have little or no way to collectively bargain on pricing.)
And yes, for bigger companies, there are tax breaks etc, but most of those are regular tax breaks that any company gets.
I won't get into the chronic disease stats. Other than to say that good primary Healthcare tends to reduce the incidence of chronic diseases.
Quality of care is hard to gauge on a national basis. It's a highly localized product, so experience can be different in very small geographic areas. Equally "quality of care" is s metric with many axies.
Naturally for-profit medical advertises a lot, and they strongly push the "quality of care" message. So the general perception of that is "private is better". How much of that is true, how much is perception, is up for debate. My personal experience (which counts for nothing) having experienced both, is that the standard of medical care is the same. (Fewer tvs in public care though.)
I'm not sure what importing doctors has to do with anything, or if it's even true. Personally I don't really care where a Dr is from.
> (Ironically most of that profit comes from Americans who have little or no way to collectively bargain on pricing.)
Thats what i meant by US subsidizing pharma for the whole world. I didn't mean the us govt.
Would they continue to exist if every single country in the world is doing "collective bargaining"?
Thats what i meant by US subsidizing pharma for the whole world. I didn't mean the us govt.
Would they continue to exist if every single country in the world is doing "collective bargaining"?
> It's complicated, yes, but simplifying somewhat the "US" does not subsidize pharma startups.
This is utterly false. Agencies like NIH, BARDA, and NSF fund early-stage biomedical R&D by providing SBIR/STTR grants to biotech and pharma startups. They also fund basic research and clinical trials as well as translational studies.
There is the Orphan Drug Tax Credit and R&D Tax Credit. Also, access to NIH labs, etc.
There is a whole plethora of funding. Moderna’s mRNA platform was heavily backed by NIH and BARDA even before COVID.
This is utterly false. Agencies like NIH, BARDA, and NSF fund early-stage biomedical R&D by providing SBIR/STTR grants to biotech and pharma startups. They also fund basic research and clinical trials as well as translational studies.
There is the Orphan Drug Tax Credit and R&D Tax Credit. Also, access to NIH labs, etc.
There is a whole plethora of funding. Moderna’s mRNA platform was heavily backed by NIH and BARDA even before COVID.
“USA is very very good at complicated, cutting edge medical care” - i hear this but haven’t seen it in practice or in statistics. Everyone I know that has needed such things has had the same poor quality of care that primary care providers have - long waits, insurance issues and mediocre outcomes.
> i hear this but haven’t seen it in practice or in statistics
curious. what kind of statistics would that show up?
When i was looking into clinical trials for prostate cancer. almost 80% of experimental cutting edge medicine was in usa. They even have spl k2 visa for International patients to participate.
curious. what kind of statistics would that show up?
When i was looking into clinical trials for prostate cancer. almost 80% of experimental cutting edge medicine was in usa. They even have spl k2 visa for International patients to participate.
I suppose it’s semantics but i wouldn’t consider experimental research “medical care”.
even outside clinical trials. for prostate cancer, only doctors i found practicing newer therapies was in usa.
I think the broader extrapolation is that the social contract has emerged around giving private enterprise wide latitude to promote the public welfare. However that does mean that the quality of said welfare entirely revolves how profitable you are to said enterprise. While great for airline tickets, its a tragedy for healthcare.
Like 5-10% of the US's total GDP gets wasted annually on the layers and layers and layers of healthcare middlemen… for worse outcomes.
Where did you get that number from? It doesn't even pass the sniff test.
17% of GDP is spent on healthcare. Claiming 60% of that is just "middleman overhead" makes no sense when the highest European countries spend 70% of what the US spends on healthcare.
If you want an actual analysis of why US healthcare costs are higher, I'd recommend the McKinsey study that compared category spending vs OECD countries. Exhibit 2 on page 4.
https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/dotcom/client_serv...
Administrative costs are way higher in the US, but it only accounts for 15% of the higher cost.
The biggest driver is outpatient care - Americans get way more healthcare and it costs more (quantity * price).
17% of GDP is spent on healthcare. Claiming 60% of that is just "middleman overhead" makes no sense when the highest European countries spend 70% of what the US spends on healthcare.
If you want an actual analysis of why US healthcare costs are higher, I'd recommend the McKinsey study that compared category spending vs OECD countries. Exhibit 2 on page 4.
https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/dotcom/client_serv...
Administrative costs are way higher in the US, but it only accounts for 15% of the higher cost.
The biggest driver is outpatient care - Americans get way more healthcare and it costs more (quantity * price).
Eh. Most of the US' "worse outcomes" are upstream of the healthcare system and would be upstream of it under any other country's healthcare model too. (Diet/exercise, and vehicle-related injury.) Feel free to criticize the spending, but the worse outcomes angle is kind of disingenuous.
That is crazy. That is more than the defense budget.
The fun part is that government intervention has driven a lot of the messed up things about US healthcare.
Super inflated prices nobody pays? - law on “U&C prices”
Consolidation of small oncology clinics into huge hospital systems? - law on 340B prices
All of these laws were put into place in an attempt at regulating prices, and as a result, entities exploited the law to give themselves even more profit than if the laws never existed.
Now that’s not to argue the government is solely at fault, but it’s remarkable how much government intervention had made the US system worse, not better.
Super inflated prices nobody pays? - law on “U&C prices”
Consolidation of small oncology clinics into huge hospital systems? - law on 340B prices
All of these laws were put into place in an attempt at regulating prices, and as a result, entities exploited the law to give themselves even more profit than if the laws never existed.
Now that’s not to argue the government is solely at fault, but it’s remarkable how much government intervention had made the US system worse, not better.
My youngest and I were discussing how removing zoning barriers to ADU (in-law suites) can be a big win for families and small win for housing in general.
In short, build an efficiency apartment on family property for an alone-living relative. Family can better provide support; the relative's residence goes back into the housing supply.
The municipality provides usual construction inspections but doesn't prevent the construction for non-pragmatic reasons.
ref: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=zoning+to+allow+ADU%2C+in-law...
In short, build an efficiency apartment on family property for an alone-living relative. Family can better provide support; the relative's residence goes back into the housing supply.
The municipality provides usual construction inspections but doesn't prevent the construction for non-pragmatic reasons.
ref: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=zoning+to+allow+ADU%2C+in-law...
There's another interesting twist to this. The insurance company is willing to pay a certain hourly rate to home health care providers. There is a limited number of health care providers willing to work for this rate. Supplementing the rate is not permitted. Lo and behold, it is sometimes not possible to find a health care provider which the insurance will pay for.
I was living with MS for years before being officially diagnosed in 2021. I got annual MRIs, and I did not take any meds due to side effects. I had one flare up in 2021. My legs decided to a break and I was numb from the waist down. I decided to try MS-4. The numbness and Muscle spasms went away after a couple of weeks, but it took almost 3 months to walk properly without a cane. In June, it will be four years without incident, and I am extremely happy that I made the decision to not take any meds and went for the MS-4 formula even though my neurologist got upset and one told me to quit my job because I will be disabled. Well, I am not disabled, I still refuse to take those meds, and I am doing just fine. Believe in yourself and go with your instincts. Doctors don't know it all. I’m surprised a lot of people with MS haven’t heard of the MS-4 protocol, Visit uinehealthcentre. net I hope you find it helpful
The best way to do long-term care for a loved one is to hire the nurses they like at a facility they stay at for a short while to treat the sick person at home. This is vastly cheaper than doing so in a facility, and the nurses earn more and are incentivized to keep the person as healthy as possible because the job pays very well since there is no facility extracting enormous overhead and executive salary costs from their salary.
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I wonder if moving his father to an assisted living facility at some point will be a better option. I have little experience with this topic so I am genuinely curious.
In my experience, these facilities are all in crisis. They can't find people to staff the facilities and provide care and when they do, they can't afford to pay them.
My father has a neurodegenerative disorder and we've struggled to find a place that will provide consistent care. My mother, a retired nurse, is the one who tends to do a significant amount of the work to feed, clean, and otherwise care for him despite paying over $10k/month. It's infuriating.
My father has a neurodegenerative disorder and we've struggled to find a place that will provide consistent care. My mother, a retired nurse, is the one who tends to do a significant amount of the work to feed, clean, and otherwise care for him despite paying over $10k/month. It's infuriating.
Oh wow, that's frustrating! I hope you find someone to provide consistent care at a reasonable price. Btw do your parents live in a state with high cost of living or this is a general situation across the country?
Midwest, so cost of living is relatively low to moderate. I don't have firsthand experience elsewhere but it's my understanding that what we experience isn't uncommon.
This is the third facility he's been in and options are limited because a lot of facilities aren't staffed to provide memory care. Unfortunately, there just aren't many options unless you're wealthy enough to have in-home care.
This is the third facility he's been in and options are limited because a lot of facilities aren't staffed to provide memory care. Unfortunately, there just aren't many options unless you're wealthy enough to have in-home care.
For those in the US, In some states like Minnesota, if you have long-term care insurance, assets can be sheltered equal to the amount of the LTC policy. This allows you qualify for Medicare with significant assets beyond the House, Vehicle and traditional qualifying assets. The sheltered assets could be used for legacy or personal needs.
> they each paid about $14,000 in annual premiums for 10 years, and the daily benefit started at $200 per day.
Insurance companies have to make money, but that's not that good of a deal, and the payout isn't that high ($73k annually) considering you won't be doing much else.
Insurance companies have to make money, but that's not that good of a deal, and the payout isn't that high ($73k annually) considering you won't be doing much else.
Consider also that by the time you need a nursing home or some other form of continual skilled care you are probably going to die within that year.
"Long-Term" is sort of a scare tactic that is used to get you imagining that you're going to be needing expensive skilled care for years. That can happen, but isn't normal.
"Long-Term" is sort of a scare tactic that is used to get you imagining that you're going to be needing expensive skilled care for years. That can happen, but isn't normal.
Severe dementia id exactly when it does happen, though. Most patients die within months of moving into a nursing home. Dementia patients average ten years.
“That can happen but isn’t normal” is exactly the kind of thing that insurance should be for. Unfortunately, US health insurance is more oriented towards covering everything rather than spreading out the risk of rare high-cost events.
My person pet peeve for insurance is dental insurance. Here's what Delta Dental offers for its own employees:
https://www1.deltadentalins.com/content/dam/ddins/en/pdf/car...
If you get the PPO, you have an in-network annual benefit cap of $2,500. So you're paying your insurance company to pay your dentist for you? And as soon as the bill gets large enough that you'd actually need insurance, they tap out?
https://www1.deltadentalins.com/content/dam/ddins/en/pdf/car...
If you get the PPO, you have an in-network annual benefit cap of $2,500. So you're paying your insurance company to pay your dentist for you? And as soon as the bill gets large enough that you'd actually need insurance, they tap out?
What's the problem? 2500 is enough to get a cleaning and a couple fillings per year. If dental insurance covered everything you need, now, at no extra cost, people would simply get coverage for a year, get their mouth fixed, and cancel it.
[deleted]
Given that my only experience with such homes is indeed long-term, I'd be curious to see actual statistics on this
The studies I’ve seen that say months or a small number of years specially look at older adult admissions, so may exclude a lot of dementia patients.
US study:
> The mean age of decedents was 83.3 (SD 9.0) and the majority were female (59.12%), and White (81.5%). Median and mean length of stay prior to death were 5 months (IQR 1-20) and 13.7 months (SD 18.4), respectively. Fifty-three percent died within 6 months of placement. Large differences in median length of stay were observed by gender (men, 3 months vs. women, 8 months) and net worth (highest quartile, 3 months vs. lowest quartile, 9 months) (all p<.001). These differences persisted after adjustment for age, sex, marital status, net worth, geographic region, and diagnosed chronic conditions (cancer, hypertension, diabetes, lung disease, heart disease, and stroke).
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2945440/
Danish Study:
> The median survival after nursing home admission was 25.8 months, with the 3-year survival being 37%.
https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/49/1/67/5639744
Tbh, there’s a lot of data on this because it’s easy to measure.
US study:
> The mean age of decedents was 83.3 (SD 9.0) and the majority were female (59.12%), and White (81.5%). Median and mean length of stay prior to death were 5 months (IQR 1-20) and 13.7 months (SD 18.4), respectively. Fifty-three percent died within 6 months of placement. Large differences in median length of stay were observed by gender (men, 3 months vs. women, 8 months) and net worth (highest quartile, 3 months vs. lowest quartile, 9 months) (all p<.001). These differences persisted after adjustment for age, sex, marital status, net worth, geographic region, and diagnosed chronic conditions (cancer, hypertension, diabetes, lung disease, heart disease, and stroke).
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2945440/
Danish Study:
> The median survival after nursing home admission was 25.8 months, with the 3-year survival being 37%.
https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/49/1/67/5639744
Tbh, there’s a lot of data on this because it’s easy to measure.
$140,000 in premium and $73,000/year in payout seems like a terrible deal for the insurance company.
Two sets of my grandparents have needed daily helpers for years. And that’s just for regular day to day care. Not in response to a particular trauma.
Two sets of my grandparents have needed daily helpers for years. And that’s just for regular day to day care. Not in response to a particular trauma.
It has been a terrible deal. These policies have been a disaster for the industry. They're very expensive and they've raised premiums to cover rising costs, which causes people to drop the policy unless they're sure they'll need it. And then those people often require care for many years, generating massive losses.
Insurance is wonderful when it works, but the conditions for it to work can be quite fragile.
Insurance is wonderful when it works, but the conditions for it to work can be quite fragile.
Certain types of insurance can be funny because of how much information asymmetry there is.
Or perfect pricing. When insurance pricing is perfect, it’s never worth it.
“It appears you’re slipping on ice and about to hit a tree with your automobile, to continue your insurance, please deposit $27k within the next 6 seconds”
“It appears you’re slipping on ice and about to hit a tree with your automobile, to continue your insurance, please deposit $27k within the next 6 seconds”
The basic bargain of insurance is supposed to be: the insured buys it before they foresee needing it, and the insurance company keeps premiums level. If either side defects from this protocol, things fall apart.
No the basic bargain of insurance is a community paying their surplus into a pool that pays out for random unfortunate events that are uncorrelated and could happen to any member of the community.
Adversarial for profit insurance does not make sense as it creates perverse incentives.
Adversarial for profit insurance does not make sense as it creates perverse incentives.
LTC policies are such a bad deal they almost bankrupted General Electric.
It is a terrible deal. Most don't offer LTC insurance anymore.
A lot of people think of insurance like a savings account rather than something like a sequence of options being rolled over so when they experience the reality of what they've been spending money on they tend to get very upset.
From the European POV this is awful and marginally scary. A commenter down the article writes that she is gonna sell her mother's house in order to serve her and even that will not last long.
The way US health care functions is an argument that the nation's principles (all free capitalism and no public intervention) are problematic.
If I were POTUS for a season, I would make a volcanic erruption in the health system. If I needed to care an elder without insurance, I would pay out of pocket a willing friend or even a homeless and not proceed to euthanasia as a commenter suggested.
The way US health care functions is an argument that the nation's principles (all free capitalism and no public intervention) are problematic.
If I were POTUS for a season, I would make a volcanic erruption in the health system. If I needed to care an elder without insurance, I would pay out of pocket a willing friend or even a homeless and not proceed to euthanasia as a commenter suggested.
I don't know about LTC insurance. I can tell you though; how it works in Texas where I live. If you want to go into a reputable facility, meaning one that is actually staffed and pays their staff a livable wage, it is very expensive; you pay out of your own pocket and after you had exhausted your savings etc. then they will apply for Medicaid on your behalf and use those government funds to continue your care.
As for me, when it is my turn, I plan to do "home attendant services". My understanding is that Medicare will pay, after a doctor has declared I am home bound, medical services at my home. I will have to arrange for meals, bathing, etc. out of my own pocket. When that time comes, I hope to find people at my church who are willing to do this. When it comes close to my time, I would need the doctor to say I need "at home hospice". Then an attendant will stay with me 24 hours a day and give me painkillers etc. until I pass in my own home.
As for me, when it is my turn, I plan to do "home attendant services". My understanding is that Medicare will pay, after a doctor has declared I am home bound, medical services at my home. I will have to arrange for meals, bathing, etc. out of my own pocket. When that time comes, I hope to find people at my church who are willing to do this. When it comes close to my time, I would need the doctor to say I need "at home hospice". Then an attendant will stay with me 24 hours a day and give me painkillers etc. until I pass in my own home.
We have a ton of public intervention in health, it’s just not very well done. The US government spends more per capita on health care than other developed countries, while covering only a fraction of the population. We’ve had universal health care for almost forty years, it’s just bad and nobody wants to call it that. A law called EMTALA says hospital emergency rooms can’t turn people away for being unable to pay, so anyone can get care, just in a very inefficient way. Properly covering everybody is Socialism(tm) and therefore isn’t in the cards.
> all free capitalism and no public intervention
Who is going to tell them?
Who is going to tell them?
One thing I don't get, given all the talk that the US healthcare system is like it is "because capitalism" - is why doesn't supply increase given the sky high costs?
You'd think with the insane money the system is gouging out of people, every man and his dog would be trying to get a bite?
Also sounds like buying insurance isn't enough there, you'd have to buy some kind of insurer management service to deal with all the bullshit required to claim
You'd think with the insane money the system is gouging out of people, every man and his dog would be trying to get a bite?
Also sounds like buying insurance isn't enough there, you'd have to buy some kind of insurer management service to deal with all the bullshit required to claim
Delay, deny, defend --- this is the insurance industry's modus operandi.
Insurance is the only industry where customers are the enemy.
Insurance is the only industry where customers are the enemy.
I wrote a longer response but deleted it as it was just a personal anecdote. Suffice it to say I'll never buy LTC insurance or participate in any elder care such as "assisted living" or "nursing care." It's all (IMO) engineered to drain old people of their assets before they die. Providing care is nowhere on the list of motivations of anyone involved.
I could not agree more. My father has a neurodegenerative disorder that requires 24 hour care. He did tons of research and purchased LTC insurance decades before he was diagnosed. Experiencing first hand how difficult and predatory both the insurance company and the care facilities are has made it so I will never put my own children through it. My plan is to just euthanize myself when the time comes.
ta555555(1)
I disagree. Getting a $3800/mo payment for up to 3 years sure was nice when I had to put mom in a $4000/mo assisted living facility.
There’s a reason companies got away from offering these policies, they were losing money on them.
There’s a reason companies got away from offering these policies, they were losing money on them.
In my case they never paid. According to the lawyers I had involved, this isn't uncommon.
Some states are forcing you to buy LTC insurance. I’ve heard Washington does this through some convoluted laws.
Washington imposed a LTC tax where some percentage of your income is taxed and goes into a fund for LTC. At the time they implemented it, you could opt out by procuring private LTC insurance. Most tech people I know did, because it was cheaper than the tax imposed. We’re still waiting to see if it’s safe to cancel our private policies.
It’s a stealth income tax. Most high income people saw through it and opted out by buying their own LTC (which isn’t indexed to income) and then canceling it once their exemption was recorded.
I only know a couple people who have since canceled their private policies due to a fear the laws will be amended requiring periodic attestation. I’m still holding my policy, though I am eager to cancel it.
I don’t understand. How is it an income tax? It’s a requirement to get a particular kind of insurance right?
It's an income tax in all but name because your income is taxed a certain percentage in order to fund the benefit.
There was a brief window where you could get LTC insurance from any provider and use it to opt out of the tax. High income earners did that because it was cheaper than paying the tax and also because receiving the benefit required you to stay in WA. The opt-out window has since closed, and if you haven't opted out by now, you will forever pay that tax if you work in WA.
https://wacaresfund.wa.gov/how-it-works
There was a brief window where you could get LTC insurance from any provider and use it to opt out of the tax. High income earners did that because it was cheaper than paying the tax and also because receiving the benefit required you to stay in WA. The opt-out window has since closed, and if you haven't opted out by now, you will forever pay that tax if you work in WA.
https://wacaresfund.wa.gov/how-it-works
Yea, just like the country forces you to buy Medicare, except convoluted because people hate social safety nets.
Medicare provides a long term benefit as well, anyways the LTC is insolvent and is mostly a ploy to get everyone to pay for expensive unhoused neighbor care (well, the homeless industrial complex gets most of the money, it probably isn’t being used to help many). It doesn’t transfer if you ever leave the state, and doesn’t pay out very much if you ever need it.
As has been planned and legislated for years, it does transfer out of state as of 2030, which is such well advertised information that people who don’t know it are clearly operating entirely on curated propaganda, not their own thoughts.
You were right in one thing: that yes, it’s going to be insolvent. Why? Because the idiots in legislature were convinced by the anti-safety-net bastards to add an exemption carve-out that fucked the entire financial plan. If you let anyone opt out of Medicare it wouldn’t have existed for six weeks. And now those bastards have the nerve to turn around and say oohhhhh noooooo it’s not even fiscally stable!
But, homeless industrial complex? Ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.
For anyone not blinded by that nonsense - the WA LTC benefit would fill in the gaps for people who do not qualify for Medicare long term care, which is basically everyone who is going to need the Medicare benefit, and keep them from going bankrupt, destroying their family or simply dying for lack of care in that year it takes before Medicare kicks in for them.
You were right in one thing: that yes, it’s going to be insolvent. Why? Because the idiots in legislature were convinced by the anti-safety-net bastards to add an exemption carve-out that fucked the entire financial plan. If you let anyone opt out of Medicare it wouldn’t have existed for six weeks. And now those bastards have the nerve to turn around and say oohhhhh noooooo it’s not even fiscally stable!
But, homeless industrial complex? Ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.
For anyone not blinded by that nonsense - the WA LTC benefit would fill in the gaps for people who do not qualify for Medicare long term care, which is basically everyone who is going to need the Medicare benefit, and keep them from going bankrupt, destroying their family or simply dying for lack of care in that year it takes before Medicare kicks in for them.
The crucial understanding is that incentives are cross aligned because the product is risk coverage.
The more immediate/pressing your need for risk coverage, the worse it is for them to sell it to you. The less you need it, the better it is for them to sell it to you and the worse for you to buy it.
Pretty different than ice cream or cars or housing. Too many people just think “oh corporate greed” without thinking about the underlying economics (partly because of how us culture pretends markets are magic).
The more immediate/pressing your need for risk coverage, the worse it is for them to sell it to you. The less you need it, the better it is for them to sell it to you and the worse for you to buy it.
Pretty different than ice cream or cars or housing. Too many people just think “oh corporate greed” without thinking about the underlying economics (partly because of how us culture pretends markets are magic).
This is why state's have insurance commissions.
In the past, insurance companies (think: liability, fire, life, shipping) responded to a claim by hiring a lawyer and negotiating down. Like most contracts.
So states began creating insurance commissions, which serve as law firms that defend consumers from insurance companies. In practice, their existence forces insurance companies to pay what they are owed.
We need insurance commissions for health insurance. If there is a reason why the policy shouldn't pay (services received after policy expired, for example), the insurance commission has to sign off.
This is how normal insurance works. Health insurance, of course, is not normal insurance.
In the past, insurance companies (think: liability, fire, life, shipping) responded to a claim by hiring a lawyer and negotiating down. Like most contracts.
So states began creating insurance commissions, which serve as law firms that defend consumers from insurance companies. In practice, their existence forces insurance companies to pay what they are owed.
We need insurance commissions for health insurance. If there is a reason why the policy shouldn't pay (services received after policy expired, for example), the insurance commission has to sign off.
This is how normal insurance works. Health insurance, of course, is not normal insurance.
We need to just nationalize these things as basic civic infrastructure that everyone funds as part of the social contract.
My immediate worry is that insurance usually focuses on fixing private harm, not public harm.
If my house burns down, there's both public harm and private harm. The public harm is the danger to bystanders, the loss of neighboring real estate values, etc. The private harm is the fact that I lost most of my equity and have to declare bankruptcy to get out of my mortgage.
Insurance is focused around preventing private harm.
So the state is now on it's own in preventing public harm (already the case), but also now liable to remedy the private harm too.
I personally know many millionaires who lost their mansions in the LA fire. I'm glad tax payers aren't paying to rebuild their $20 million dollar houses.
That's an extreme example, but insurance benefits those who have something to lose the most.
Let's keep government insurance focused on things that private industry refuses to insure, like unemployment and health insurance for sick people.
If my house burns down, there's both public harm and private harm. The public harm is the danger to bystanders, the loss of neighboring real estate values, etc. The private harm is the fact that I lost most of my equity and have to declare bankruptcy to get out of my mortgage.
Insurance is focused around preventing private harm.
So the state is now on it's own in preventing public harm (already the case), but also now liable to remedy the private harm too.
I personally know many millionaires who lost their mansions in the LA fire. I'm glad tax payers aren't paying to rebuild their $20 million dollar houses.
That's an extreme example, but insurance benefits those who have something to lose the most.
Let's keep government insurance focused on things that private industry refuses to insure, like unemployment and health insurance for sick people.
LTC insurance is covered by insurance commissions.
Yes indeed. Part of the problem is having “insurance” draining part of the resources. Long term care means it isn’t an “accident,” but a constant recurring cost. Saving the money up front, producing income, and paying directly for what you need is often a better strategy.
I think this underestimates the "cost" of LTC.
And also doesn't consider when the LTC starts. It could start at any time, even before working age.
And also doesn't consider when the LTC starts. It could start at any time, even before working age.
Companies are not in business to lose money, and you have to fight them to collect. That there are some low probability exceptions is not enough in their favor imho.
There seems to be no will to replace this dysfunctional arrangement with a social safety net unfortunately.
Because injustice is corruption.
So every area of our lives that feels like it doesn't work like it used to - cost of living, healthcare, education, antitrust enforcement, journalism, accountability at the highest levels - represents a segment of the economy which has been corrupted.
Through this lens, socioeconomic policies start to make sense. For example, if your goal is to skim a fraction of the income from everyone in an economy and redirect those funds to specific goals/organizations/individuals, you could put tariffs on common goods and pass the funds collected on to companies granted large government contracts. Then the largest companies like GM and Ford see their profits reduced or even show a loss, while Grok and Palantir have all the money they need for mass surveillance.
Explanations for regulatory capture aren't normally this reductive, but wealth inequality has reached such monumental proportions that the simplest answer tends to be the right one when the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.
So every area of our lives that feels like it doesn't work like it used to - cost of living, healthcare, education, antitrust enforcement, journalism, accountability at the highest levels - represents a segment of the economy which has been corrupted.
Through this lens, socioeconomic policies start to make sense. For example, if your goal is to skim a fraction of the income from everyone in an economy and redirect those funds to specific goals/organizations/individuals, you could put tariffs on common goods and pass the funds collected on to companies granted large government contracts. Then the largest companies like GM and Ford see their profits reduced or even show a loss, while Grok and Palantir have all the money they need for mass surveillance.
Explanations for regulatory capture aren't normally this reductive, but wealth inequality has reached such monumental proportions that the simplest answer tends to be the right one when the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.
So through that lens how do you explain the healthcare situation before the start of tariffs, or is your entire worldview shaped based only on the news you read in the last three days?
Sorry for my late reply.
I believe that the US healthcare crisis started in 1973 when Nixon signed the HMO Act, which had the effect of tying health insurance to employment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Maintenance_Organizatio...
The alternative would have been some kind of single-payer option where US tax dollars would fun Medicare and/or Medicaid for all. Here is an explanation I found:
https://medicaiddirectors.org/resource/understanding-managed...
This differs from a public option, which would be a generic insurance offered by the government at a substantial savings over private:
https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2019/07/why-a-public-opt...
A public option likely would be 20-50% less expensive than private due to the 80/20 rule and the fact the European healthcare is about 1/2 the cost of US healthcare, so a current $400/month plan might be $200-320/month:
https://www.aeaweb.org/research/regulating-health-insurers-a...
https://nashbio.com/blog/healthcare/the-healthcare-divide-pr...
Unfortunately Obamacare (Romneycare) forced everyone to get insurance or face a tax penalty mandate, which was lifted by Trump in the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017:
https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/affordable-care-a...
-
Knowing these facts, what's really going on? Two things:
* Obamacare did little to address the natural monopoly aspect of healthcare, so costs exploded
* Republican concerns about government overreach into our private lives (knowing our info and determining who receives care) and negative impacts on private health industries have not been heard
Natural monopolies are things that everyone needs, such as water, sewer, trash, electricity, education, healthcare, etc:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly
Meaning that eventually running a capitalist system results in 1 or 2 companies controlling the entire market and charging whatever they wish, since high cost of entry prevents competition. Without competition, there is no supply and demand curve to counteract price increases. In other words, whoever controls the water can sell it at any price. Or insulin, or Epipens, or Hepatitis C treatments.
The only way to bring costs down on a natural monopoly is through regulation. Society chooses which firm(s) will supply the good or service, and how much it will cost. Overages are paid through subsidies, which can be high, but are at least under public review, unlike when private industry controls a market.
These are the reasons why healthcare got so expensive. But the meaning behind it, that's more nuanced.
The US is very into individual responsibility. Our belief is that a strong citizenry ensures a strong nation. Because we defeated not just fascism in WWII, but the rise of socialism and communism during the Cold War. Our privately funded athletes beat state-funded athletes in the Olympics. Our private industry runs more efficiently than (for example) national construction projects in Russia and China which built cities that nobody lives in. We have our own pork barrel projects, but they tend to be limited by public scrutiny, unlike in communist nations.
The US is also very into privacy. We have medical privacy laws like HIPAA which may not exist with state-funded medical care. Now, this is a half-truth, because Europe has arguably the same or better privacy than we do. Because there is little incentive to sell medical information there, unlike here.
What it really comes down to is that people who are used to paying through the nose for US health insurance after a lifetime of hard work aren't ready to see others receive it for free through the government. They don't want someone determining how long they have to wait for care, or if they receive it at all. They perceive government red tape as making health providers even more expensive or putting them out of business. As in, why would doctors go to medical school merely to be paid little more than teachers and other public servants? Yes, privacy may be impacted with single-payer. But in the US, the answer is usually about $$$.
Sadly, this debate has resulted in the lose-lose we see today: rising costs with no backstop, and threatened privacy due to regulatory capture by health companies which have misaligned incentives and are too big to fail.
-
My solution to this political impasse would be a gradual transition to single-payer healthcare (probably Medicare for All) on an opt-in basis, either at the state or individual level. Knowing that taxpayers who opt in may pay a higher rate for a time to supplement those on private insurance. Until enough people are in the single-payer system that it becomes self-evidently better and the majority switch to it. Similar to private school vouchers, except going the other direction: public healthcare vouchers.
People could still buy private insurance to supplement Medicare for All and go to the front of the line. I don't like it, because I believe that healthcare is a human right that shouldn't depend on money, but this is America. If someone has the money to pay doctors overtime, then it probably makes little economic sense to stop them.
Medical research should go back to the previous university/publicly funded model. So grants would be available for companies pursuing billion dollar cures for cancer and other diseases which diminish quality of life or its duration. Then medications would be sold at close to wholesale price. This eliminates the current problems where pharmaceutical companies sell treatments instead of cures, that tend to start out very expensive.
-
Sorry this got so long. I believe that you'd receive a similar summary from an LLM, and that without this context, a debate would fall into dogmatic attacks that lead nowhere.
Edit: fixed small typos.
I believe that the US healthcare crisis started in 1973 when Nixon signed the HMO Act, which had the effect of tying health insurance to employment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Maintenance_Organizatio...
The alternative would have been some kind of single-payer option where US tax dollars would fun Medicare and/or Medicaid for all. Here is an explanation I found:
https://medicaiddirectors.org/resource/understanding-managed...
This differs from a public option, which would be a generic insurance offered by the government at a substantial savings over private:
https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2019/07/why-a-public-opt...
A public option likely would be 20-50% less expensive than private due to the 80/20 rule and the fact the European healthcare is about 1/2 the cost of US healthcare, so a current $400/month plan might be $200-320/month:
https://www.aeaweb.org/research/regulating-health-insurers-a...
https://nashbio.com/blog/healthcare/the-healthcare-divide-pr...
Unfortunately Obamacare (Romneycare) forced everyone to get insurance or face a tax penalty mandate, which was lifted by Trump in the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017:
https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/affordable-care-a...
-
Knowing these facts, what's really going on? Two things:
* Obamacare did little to address the natural monopoly aspect of healthcare, so costs exploded
* Republican concerns about government overreach into our private lives (knowing our info and determining who receives care) and negative impacts on private health industries have not been heard
Natural monopolies are things that everyone needs, such as water, sewer, trash, electricity, education, healthcare, etc:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly
Meaning that eventually running a capitalist system results in 1 or 2 companies controlling the entire market and charging whatever they wish, since high cost of entry prevents competition. Without competition, there is no supply and demand curve to counteract price increases. In other words, whoever controls the water can sell it at any price. Or insulin, or Epipens, or Hepatitis C treatments.
The only way to bring costs down on a natural monopoly is through regulation. Society chooses which firm(s) will supply the good or service, and how much it will cost. Overages are paid through subsidies, which can be high, but are at least under public review, unlike when private industry controls a market.
These are the reasons why healthcare got so expensive. But the meaning behind it, that's more nuanced.
The US is very into individual responsibility. Our belief is that a strong citizenry ensures a strong nation. Because we defeated not just fascism in WWII, but the rise of socialism and communism during the Cold War. Our privately funded athletes beat state-funded athletes in the Olympics. Our private industry runs more efficiently than (for example) national construction projects in Russia and China which built cities that nobody lives in. We have our own pork barrel projects, but they tend to be limited by public scrutiny, unlike in communist nations.
The US is also very into privacy. We have medical privacy laws like HIPAA which may not exist with state-funded medical care. Now, this is a half-truth, because Europe has arguably the same or better privacy than we do. Because there is little incentive to sell medical information there, unlike here.
What it really comes down to is that people who are used to paying through the nose for US health insurance after a lifetime of hard work aren't ready to see others receive it for free through the government. They don't want someone determining how long they have to wait for care, or if they receive it at all. They perceive government red tape as making health providers even more expensive or putting them out of business. As in, why would doctors go to medical school merely to be paid little more than teachers and other public servants? Yes, privacy may be impacted with single-payer. But in the US, the answer is usually about $$$.
Sadly, this debate has resulted in the lose-lose we see today: rising costs with no backstop, and threatened privacy due to regulatory capture by health companies which have misaligned incentives and are too big to fail.
-
My solution to this political impasse would be a gradual transition to single-payer healthcare (probably Medicare for All) on an opt-in basis, either at the state or individual level. Knowing that taxpayers who opt in may pay a higher rate for a time to supplement those on private insurance. Until enough people are in the single-payer system that it becomes self-evidently better and the majority switch to it. Similar to private school vouchers, except going the other direction: public healthcare vouchers.
People could still buy private insurance to supplement Medicare for All and go to the front of the line. I don't like it, because I believe that healthcare is a human right that shouldn't depend on money, but this is America. If someone has the money to pay doctors overtime, then it probably makes little economic sense to stop them.
Medical research should go back to the previous university/publicly funded model. So grants would be available for companies pursuing billion dollar cures for cancer and other diseases which diminish quality of life or its duration. Then medications would be sold at close to wholesale price. This eliminates the current problems where pharmaceutical companies sell treatments instead of cures, that tend to start out very expensive.
-
Sorry this got so long. I believe that you'd receive a similar summary from an LLM, and that without this context, a debate would fall into dogmatic attacks that lead nowhere.
Edit: fixed small typos.
>> There seems to be no will to replace this dysfunctional arrangement with a social safety net unfortunately.
I think one problem is that healthcare in many cases is meant to tackle the 1.5-2 sigma problems -- so naturally few people really encounter bad healthcare. The others thing they have good healthcare, until they are unlucky enough to encounter an issue.
I'm shocked how many people on my exact same health plan at work think it is a great plan.
I think one problem is that healthcare in many cases is meant to tackle the 1.5-2 sigma problems -- so naturally few people really encounter bad healthcare. The others thing they have good healthcare, until they are unlucky enough to encounter an issue.
I'm shocked how many people on my exact same health plan at work think it is a great plan.
I’ve heard from many recent moms that Aetna regularly denies normal labor and delivery charges that are explicitly covered in their plans. That then forces you through a months long process of calling them repeatedly, tolerating hold times of 1-2 hours each time, and getting virtually no help. And maybe at the end of it, when your child is almost one year old, they may pay out. That’s for a normal delivery with no complications.
Aetna knows exhausted and stressed moms are less likely to persist. It is blatantly fraudulent but they get away with it because no one has the time or money to get their executives thrown in jail.
Aetna knows exhausted and stressed moms are less likely to persist. It is blatantly fraudulent but they get away with it because no one has the time or money to get their executives thrown in jail.
People need to stop looking at it like this.
Healthcare is a triangle. There are three players. You, Insurance, and Doctor.
All three are adversaries and allies in different ways.
Healthcare is a triangle. There are three players. You, Insurance, and Doctor.
All three are adversaries and allies in different ways.
In reality the triangle is Doctors, Insurance, Hospitals, and you in the middle.
In reality what the article says is they needed adult-sitters.
Family at first but USE PROFESSIONALS. Due to scummy ins company wanting docs.
How is that health care? Babysitting is now health care???
We need a better way to deal with dementia. Not health care.
A literal babysitter to make sure they eat and don't run into the street.
I don't see dementia as sickness. Brain illness maybe.
So we have to warehouse these feeble folk. That is the problem.
We need a more humane way rather than Doctor K's method..
What about the poor old guys girlfriend?
Family at first but USE PROFESSIONALS. Due to scummy ins company wanting docs.
How is that health care? Babysitting is now health care???
We need a better way to deal with dementia. Not health care.
A literal babysitter to make sure they eat and don't run into the street.
I don't see dementia as sickness. Brain illness maybe.
So we have to warehouse these feeble folk. That is the problem.
We need a more humane way rather than Doctor K's method..
What about the poor old guys girlfriend?
The alternative is to depose them.
It's a massive shame how he is treated right now. Right after the deposition of one mass murderer CEO, another would-be mass murderer insurer backtracked their plans to limit time under anesthesia.
Deposition works.
Even those who believe human lives are equal (they are not) have to admit the price of one dead (bad) person outweighs the number of people who would have died or had serious complications from rushed procedures.
It's a massive shame how he is treated right now. Right after the deposition of one mass murderer CEO, another would-be mass murderer insurer backtracked their plans to limit time under anesthesia.
Deposition works.
Even those who believe human lives are equal (they are not) have to admit the price of one dead (bad) person outweighs the number of people who would have died or had serious complications from rushed procedures.
There are three things a nation needs to accept about universal health care:
(1) It’s expensive (2) Everybody has to pay (3) The government’s gotta run it
(1) It’s expensive (2) Everybody has to pay (3) The government’s gotta run it
Computers and software used to be extremely expensive about 30 years ago, yet private industry advanced the state of the art and brought the prices down.
There seems to be very little talk about making medical education cheaper and more accessible. Why wouldn't it be cheaper if we had more MDs and nurses? What if we made it easier to become an MD ?
The insurance system is a cartel and they are greedy. However the regulations (upheld by the government) enable it.
There seems to be very little talk about making medical education cheaper and more accessible. Why wouldn't it be cheaper if we had more MDs and nurses? What if we made it easier to become an MD ?
The insurance system is a cartel and they are greedy. However the regulations (upheld by the government) enable it.
We've done that to some extent via the legal enablement of nurse practitioner and physician assistant led care. Of course, largely speaking all they do is supervise the recording of patient metrics and prescribe drugs in label-consistent ways, but that often works out reasonably well for the patient. When the patient needs specialty care then the NP or PA simply punts them into the winds of referrals and insurance justifications.
I'm not sure there's any realistic way to enhance the availability of specialists. You can't 'stub' your way through providing the care of a skilled gastroenterologist by substitution with a NP, though PAs in specialty care are becoming common.
I'm not sure there's any realistic way to enhance the availability of specialists. You can't 'stub' your way through providing the care of a skilled gastroenterologist by substitution with a NP, though PAs in specialty care are becoming common.
Why not open more medical schools? And eliminate the matching system? If you want to be an ____-ologist, here is the list of requirements. Meet the requirements and you are the ___ologist. Not whether or not a practice group likes you, or your parents knew which colleague to talk to. Don't allow the supply of MDs to be constrained.
The bigger restriction is number of residency positions which has been limited by government funding constraints. Also you need sufficient skilled doctors to train these residents. There is also the issue of physician burnout and preferences of doctors to be specialist vs being in primary care. So what often happens is foreign medical grads apply for these kind of roles. Also foreign medical doctors have a couple of requirements to work in the US. Get their foreign degree reviews to meet requirements, pass the US medical exams and finally they have to redo their residency even if they have significant experience. Some of this is largely controlled at the state level. Some states are considering loosening the residency part to a shorter period for primary care position for foreign doctors that are willing to work in underserved areas. I know California is also reducing restrictions on foreign dentists.
Because your congressman gets lots of donations from doctors and hospitals. Doctors like to drive fancy cars.
In places with Catholics, you usually get the bishops advocating for the local Catholic hospital system.
In places with Catholics, you usually get the bishops advocating for the local Catholic hospital system.
So government (my congressman) IS the problem! Thanks for reinforcing what Reagan said 40 years ago.
Sure, but what these types of people fail to understand is that the only way to solve the problem is also government.
It turns out the real world is a big complicated messy place and there's rarely a simple answer like "delete government!"
It turns out the real world is a big complicated messy place and there's rarely a simple answer like "delete government!"
Ironically, your guy Reagan was paid and supported by the AMA to fight “socialized medicine” and increasing the number of doctors in the 1960s.
This cult of personality in American politics is such a curse.
It really is. I’m not a fan of Reagan’s politics, but I respect his point of view.
But the weird deification of him, now displaced by the new guy’s cult of personality is so awful and toxic. He’s either a giant among men or a demon, and both positions are wrong.
But the weird deification of him, now displaced by the new guy’s cult of personality is so awful and toxic. He’s either a giant among men or a demon, and both positions are wrong.
I think the weirdness is the recent condemnation of him by the far-left. They are shitting on a guy who has been dead for 20 years. It's absolutely bizarre. It seemed to start about 2020 out of the blue.
Health care is so different though because the market doesn't work.
If you are facing death, no one wants the off brand, budget cancer treatment. No one is going to shop around for the best value cancer treatment.
If you have a heart attack, no one is going to call around for the best price on the ambulance.
It is like a luxury market. People shop around for the best doctor/treatment with no regard at all for the price.
So it is like complaining that a luxury service market is expensive.
The only way around this is a completely state run health care system that you have no choice.
If you are facing death, no one wants the off brand, budget cancer treatment. No one is going to shop around for the best value cancer treatment.
If you have a heart attack, no one is going to call around for the best price on the ambulance.
It is like a luxury market. People shop around for the best doctor/treatment with no regard at all for the price.
So it is like complaining that a luxury service market is expensive.
The only way around this is a completely state run health care system that you have no choice.
Without relgulation, the profit seekers would remain in power and the same applies to more medical staff.
The insurance system is a profit seeking institution, that functions as intended. Why dont you talk about that BURNING aspect?
The insurance system is a profit seeking institution, that functions as intended. Why dont you talk about that BURNING aspect?
You didn't address a single thing I said
Government does not have to run it. Gokernment needs to ensure it is run well but there is no reason they have to run it.
Oversight doesn’t work, look at the finance markets.
works very well there - don't confuse imperfection for not working.
It works in other countries
>The government’s gotta run it
But there are plenty of countries with functioning healthcare systems that are private? The Swiss, for instance. Moreover depending on what counts as "government’s gotta run it" (paying for it? administering it? actually providing care?) you can argue that the German or even Canadian systems aren't government run, at least to some degree.
But there are plenty of countries with functioning healthcare systems that are private? The Swiss, for instance. Moreover depending on what counts as "government’s gotta run it" (paying for it? administering it? actually providing care?) you can argue that the German or even Canadian systems aren't government run, at least to some degree.
In the Swiss system the private insurance companies are required to be non-profits. The government sets the standard for care and coverage and all the companies can do is compete on price.
Basically what Obamacare was originally intended to be before they had to compromise to get it passed.
Basically what Obamacare was originally intended to be before they had to compromise to get it passed.
Who were they compromising with? The Congress had large Democrat majorities in both houses during the ACA legislative process.
The 60th vote was Ted Kennedy who died in office and a Republican was elected to fill the seat, forcing passage of an earlier bill.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Senate_sp...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Senate_sp...
They were trying to get Republican votes so that the law would be bipartisan. In the end it passed on a party line vote, so maybe the compromises were a mistake...
The parties weren't yet ideologically sorted. The Democratic majority included dozens of members of the Blue Dog coalition, a conservative group who (among other things) didn't support healthcare reform.
Also the us Congress is blocked by the senate needing 60 votes/supporters to reach cloture on every single bill, except the once per year thing that got the bbb passed. So it's very easy to block the other side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(United_States_...
All the Democrats bought by the private health insurance companies I assume.
Democrat senators Lieberman and Baucus mainly torpedoed it. And Pelosi refused to get republicans on board.
I've heard good things about the Dutch system of healthcare and that it may be adoptable to the US. I'd totally agree that healthcare corporations become non profit like Kaiser here in the US. They aren't perfect, but they seem to be better than the their for profit competitors.
Dutch system and original Romney care (and early versions of Obama care) had a lot in common. Health care providers are private, insurance companies private, gov dictates a basic list of treatments which count as "basic care" and must be covered by insurance, sets max deductible / copay etc, insurance companies are not allowed to refuse any customers, everyone must have insurance, if you can't afford it gov will pay for your insurance.
Afaik that's the gist of it. The ACA has been maimed on various fronts (e.g. the mandate "everyone must have health insurance" is no longer practically in effect), but it originally started out very similar. Far more than to, e.g., the UK's NHS which is fundamentally quite different.
Afaik that's the gist of it. The ACA has been maimed on various fronts (e.g. the mandate "everyone must have health insurance" is no longer practically in effect), but it originally started out very similar. Far more than to, e.g., the UK's NHS which is fundamentally quite different.
So why don't we see Republican Americans advocating to adopt the Swiss system which provides universal coverage at a lower per capita cost?
If you only ever look at the way a system works at a specific point in time you only observe it at that point in time.
America has had multiple attempts at solutions for healthcare over the years, each started with good intent and then waylaid by various causes to produce what we have right now.
A sibling comment mentions political compromise to pass the ACA, as an example of this.
Another example is that HMOs were started with inherent goodness, but got “corrupted” (in my mind) by profit seeking.
To directly answer your question: a core tenet of the Republican tent is minimal government involvement in day to day lives of the citizenry. Ergo, the Swiss system won’t work because it involves a lot of bureaucracy. Republicans link bureaucracy to cost, and feel this is not an appropriate use of tax payers dollars.
The holes in this political doctrine are not part of my answer here fwiw. Please no “but…” comments to that end :)
America has had multiple attempts at solutions for healthcare over the years, each started with good intent and then waylaid by various causes to produce what we have right now.
A sibling comment mentions political compromise to pass the ACA, as an example of this.
Another example is that HMOs were started with inherent goodness, but got “corrupted” (in my mind) by profit seeking.
To directly answer your question: a core tenet of the Republican tent is minimal government involvement in day to day lives of the citizenry. Ergo, the Swiss system won’t work because it involves a lot of bureaucracy. Republicans link bureaucracy to cost, and feel this is not an appropriate use of tax payers dollars.
The holes in this political doctrine are not part of my answer here fwiw. Please no “but…” comments to that end :)
To be fair the tenet is minimal involvement in the day to day operations of the economy and maximal involvement in the day to day lives of the citizenry.
I do find the ironies in political platforms quite beautiful. I also love how they provides endless fodder for largely fruitless internet discussion ^_^
In speaking with my republican father in law on his opposition to universal healthcare, it dawned on me that he views it as a sort of zero sum game. If he has healthcare today, and then universal healthcare offers it to folks that don't have it today, it is a loss for him.
Something I've run into in similar situations is the "moral necessity of punishment", sort of a reverse just-world fallacy.
"There are people not good enough for health care and helping them would violate this natural order".
"There are people not good enough for health care and helping them would violate this natural order".
It’s absolutely the case that public health coverage will benefit some people who make bad health decisions at the cost to some of those who make good decisions (or the decisions themselves must be made by a central authority).
That doesn’t make it the wrong policy decision. Lots of systems we happily manage with similar dynamics. But I don’t think denying that basic fact is the right path forward. The moral hazard is real and worth acknowledging.
That doesn’t make it the wrong policy decision. Lots of systems we happily manage with similar dynamics. But I don’t think denying that basic fact is the right path forward. The moral hazard is real and worth acknowledging.
Ironically the people who make bad health decisions are often benefiting the medical system by dieing more often around retirement age rather than going on to live 20+ years past retirement with age-related healthcare problems that cost WAY more than any other health conditions they could encounter when they are younger.
Smokers for example have more lung disease and cancer which cost money to treat, but usually not until they are in their 60s so they still spend their entire life paying into the system, but then they die soon after, saving on age related healthcare costs. And that is on top of smoking disqualifying someone from many treatments and surgeries, making smokers a net-win for healthcare costs to society.
Being really fat also seems to have similar effects, although the the finances are much closer so perhaps the second order effects from being fat cancel them out. But on paper they are still a bit cheaper than the average person.
Many people will argue against it because it "feels wrong" and they think unhealthy people should be punished (for example with higher insurance fees) and don't want to admit that unhealthy people are subsidizing their own healthcare, doubly so if you add in the sin taxes they have been paying their whole life that often result in more state income than their entire life-time medical costs add up to. But there has been numerous studies across the decades in Europe and the US showing how much cheaper unhealthy people that die earlier are to care for compared to the 90 year old granny walking everyday and risking broken hips and taking 30 different medications a day.
Smokers for example have more lung disease and cancer which cost money to treat, but usually not until they are in their 60s so they still spend their entire life paying into the system, but then they die soon after, saving on age related healthcare costs. And that is on top of smoking disqualifying someone from many treatments and surgeries, making smokers a net-win for healthcare costs to society.
Being really fat also seems to have similar effects, although the the finances are much closer so perhaps the second order effects from being fat cancel them out. But on paper they are still a bit cheaper than the average person.
Many people will argue against it because it "feels wrong" and they think unhealthy people should be punished (for example with higher insurance fees) and don't want to admit that unhealthy people are subsidizing their own healthcare, doubly so if you add in the sin taxes they have been paying their whole life that often result in more state income than their entire life-time medical costs add up to. But there has been numerous studies across the decades in Europe and the US showing how much cheaper unhealthy people that die earlier are to care for compared to the 90 year old granny walking everyday and risking broken hips and taking 30 different medications a day.
The problem is we're already doing that, just worse.
Insurance is just risk-pooling. The most effective risk-pooling requires a bigger pool. That's why we have big insurance companies and bigger companies offer better employer healthcare plans.
Well, the biggest pool is the entire US population. So, we should just do that.
We already have socialized medicine. If my coworker smokes, I pay for that. If we're going to do socialized medicine, we should do it right.
Insurance is just risk-pooling. The most effective risk-pooling requires a bigger pool. That's why we have big insurance companies and bigger companies offer better employer healthcare plans.
Well, the biggest pool is the entire US population. So, we should just do that.
We already have socialized medicine. If my coworker smokes, I pay for that. If we're going to do socialized medicine, we should do it right.
What moral hazard? Is there someone out there smoking 16 packs a day on the basis that their lung cancer will be treated for free??
I think bad health is usually its own punishment.
I think bad health is usually its own punishment.
This is going to be the ultimate issue if we do achieve some sort of post scarcity world where human labor is redundant. The idea that it’s not someone’s fault their indenture is unnecessary let alone a moral failing deserving of punishment is foreign to a lot of American thinking. The puritanical labor is godly mentality combined with the long term warping of anti Soviet propaganda is going to lead to some serious wide spread suffering that would take what should be the greatest achievement of man kind and turn it into a scourge.
Obamacare was a replica of Romneycare, which was implemented in Massachusetts. It was the republican approach of leveraging private enterprise and encouraging consolidated medical networks.
The difference now is the republicans have changed, and nuanced issues are just not welcome on the platform of a party following a cult of personality.
The difference now is the republicans have changed, and nuanced issues are just not welcome on the platform of a party following a cult of personality.
They were advocating for it before Obama tried to get it done. It was implemented in Massachusetts and termed "Romneycare" as Mitt Romney was the governor. Once Obama tried to implement it, it was government overreach and had to be watered down to get consensus. Personally I think we should have a govt option along side others, but all healthcare should be nonprofit (as in the Swiss model). Profit extraction is antithetical to healthcare.
Because it's any amount of government spending for one. And for two (this one is more of my opinion than the last one) the US has a problem where we, as a culture, view poor people as somehow morally or ethically broken, which is what causes them to be poor. Therefore, we shouldn't spend money that could positively impact them, regardless of its overall benefit. I got mine, so anyone can, but as the cultural zeitgeist.
Almost nobody in US politics who talks about something doesn't understand it or thinks it through. That's for people on the left and and on the right. They just repeat talking points that are given to them by wealthy party donors.
Because Republican Americans tend to overwhelmingly think "government bad, private business good". Even the "small-c conservatives".
Although they think government is good at controlling their version of morality.
(1) is not correct. The US spends more than other nation per capita on health care
(3) isn't correct either. It needs to be regulated in some way. Government doesn't have to run it. I think it should be treated more like a utility
(3) isn't correct either. It needs to be regulated in some way. Government doesn't have to run it. I think it should be treated more like a utility
Your first point doesn't mean that universal health care in the US would not be expensive. It definitely would, not that the USG couldn't afford it, but it wouldn't be cheap.
Agree with your second point.
Agree with your second point.
It’s not a matter of acceptance. We can’t accept the cost of anything consistently growing at a rate faster than GDP. That’s just math, not ethics or political choice theory or anything else. Health care cost growth is going to slow one way or the another.
Watch what happens to the GDP if they don’t tackle the health care problem. You think it’s expensive now? Negotiating drug prices isn’t going to solve the problem. Having “health insurance” isn’t going to work when an AI decides whether your illness warrants saving you.
You all need to think about what’s going to happen to you when you can’t move anymore. Will you have enough money? Triple it. Maybe 6x it. Only the rich will be able to live healthy unless you’re diligent about your own health or strike it rich in an IPO.
You all need to think about what’s going to happen to you when you can’t move anymore. Will you have enough money? Triple it. Maybe 6x it. Only the rich will be able to live healthy unless you’re diligent about your own health or strike it rich in an IPO.
But growth is also going to slow due to demographics, and this is unavoidable. Are we going to prioritize caring for humans? Or line goes up? Because line goes up is going to hit the demographic wall eventually.
https://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/our-research/dependency-and-dep...
https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/spring/summer-2018/demogra...
https://www.cato.org/commentary/clear-eyed-look-our-demograp...
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jesusfv/Slides_London.pdf
https://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/our-research/dependency-and-dep...
https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/spring/summer-2018/demogra...
https://www.cato.org/commentary/clear-eyed-look-our-demograp...
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jesusfv/Slides_London.pdf
It has more to do with demand than being anything. Demand for healthcare is highly inelastic. If the price of Pokémon’s grew faster than GDP consistently we would be fine. But if the price of a necessity for life does, we will not be fine.
This is why life necessities are often treated as a public responsibility. Health care is one of the few that is treated as a luxury.
This is why life necessities are often treated as a public responsibility. Health care is one of the few that is treated as a luxury.
What part of the cost of healthcare involves providing profits for middlemen?
Americans are perfectly conditioned to instinctively and aggressively deny all three. :(
You need to get this long before you need it, but also ensure it is good plan that will take care of you. The person in the article is lucky to have kids doing that, if you don't have kids who care who will care for you.
"ensure it is good plan that will take care of you. "
That's basically impossible. You will only know if you made the right choice once you are actually starting to use the insurance.
That's basically impossible. You will only know if you made the right choice once you are actually starting to use the insurance.
not exactly - you can check on the experience of those who have it. Though of course things can change.
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Interesting this comment!!! It looks like there are bots out there shilling specific treatments on message boards? Wonder where this price shows up in our cost structure!!!???
You comment is the definition of spam
As to OP, the simplest solution is to move out of the US early enough or become “poor” enough and be in a wealthy blue state by the time you get to this predicament.