Ask HN: moving to US
24 comments
If I were you, I'd stay exactly where I was, open a small business selling software on the Internet to rich Westerners, quit my dayjob as soon as I covered my previous salary, and then expand your little sideline into something as big as you want to go.
You may feel you are not founder material yet. Break that down into exactly what you don't have going for you. Then, learn it as you go. Marketing, for example, really isn't black magic. Pricing is not black magic.
(If I can make a quick comment based on my previous professional dealings with Indian companies: "We're the cheapest possible price!" is a terrible, terrible way to position yourself. However, the fact that you have the cheapest possible living standards among similarly situated software firms means you will hit ramen profitability, or curry profitability if you'd rather, much faster than the rest of us will when charging the same price. That is sort of nice.)
Take this and all other advice (including the advice you're relying on to make your determination that you are not founder material) with a grain of salt.
You may feel you are not founder material yet. Break that down into exactly what you don't have going for you. Then, learn it as you go. Marketing, for example, really isn't black magic. Pricing is not black magic.
(If I can make a quick comment based on my previous professional dealings with Indian companies: "We're the cheapest possible price!" is a terrible, terrible way to position yourself. However, the fact that you have the cheapest possible living standards among similarly situated software firms means you will hit ramen profitability, or curry profitability if you'd rather, much faster than the rest of us will when charging the same price. That is sort of nice.)
Take this and all other advice (including the advice you're relying on to make your determination that you are not founder material) with a grain of salt.
why was this downvoted to zero? This is great advice! (I am Indian have lived in the USA , have no plans to move back on an H1 - the long waiting period for the GC isn't worth it - but if I were, this advice makes a lot of sense as an alternative)
This is excellent advice. But would it give an edge if you are starting a product on the lines of http://basecamphq.com/ ?
37 signals does have customers outside the US but I suppose its a small figure.
37 signals does have customers outside the US but I suppose its a small figure.
this is what I have been thinking lately. thanks its logical and different perspectives add to the meaning
This image enumerates all the possibilities: http://www.reason.com/images/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5a...
Chances are that you'll have to go the H1B route. Which ain't pretty, because most employers automatically ignore job applications with those dreaded letters.
You'll save yourself a bunch of time and trouble by researching the companies that do employ on H1B. Meebo is one: http://gigaom.com/2008/07/05/meebos-jen-how-to-find-hard-to-... .
Also, mention the need for H1B as early as possible in the application process (cover letter is a good place), so that you don't ace the interviews only to get rejected for that reason. Another possibility is to offer to pay the legal costs of H1B applications (in the region of US$5000).
Chances are that you'll have to go the H1B route. Which ain't pretty, because most employers automatically ignore job applications with those dreaded letters.
You'll save yourself a bunch of time and trouble by researching the companies that do employ on H1B. Meebo is one: http://gigaom.com/2008/07/05/meebos-jen-how-to-find-hard-to-... .
Also, mention the need for H1B as early as possible in the application process (cover letter is a good place), so that you don't ace the interviews only to get rejected for that reason. Another possibility is to offer to pay the legal costs of H1B applications (in the region of US$5000).
I think I can somewhat relate to where you are coming from. I did my Bachelor's in Engg from Mumbai in 2001 and then went to the US - did my MS there, dabbled in Google SoC, worked in a Sunnyvale startup, lived in SF for three years and have just returned back for good to Mumbai last week after living away from here for eight years.
The plan for returning here was to start something of own.
One of my key reasons for returning was the cumbersome H1B/GC process. After living in the US for five+ years I was still three years away from getting a GC. And this is hugely limiting if you want to work for a real early-stage startup which is where the real excitement is.. and they can rarely sponsor H1Bs.
There is an article by Paul Graham on Founders Visa - http://www.paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html. Honestly, until this becomes are reality I would say that having a H1B and looking for work with a real YC kind of startup is not really feasible and rarely works out.
I do not have answers for the questions you have asked above. But I can share some of my experiences of working full-time in Mumbai, Bangalore and the SF Bay Area.
One thing you have got right for the startup mindset is your desire not to work in the kind of onsite/services jobs that the "big" IT firms from India provide. If you feel you would like to explore some creative/innovative technology start-up type of work there is a good chance you'll have to form your own team and take the leap. While I agree with you that the start-up culture in India is different - I'm not sure I can completely grasp what you mean by efforts/returns ratio is inadequate. "Returns" is very subjective.
I think if you work on some of the strengths of having a start-up in India but with global reach and applications - then there is no reason why you would not be able to get adequate returns as well as the kind of satisfaction.. if that is also something that you are looking for.
I'm available on email to discuss this further..
The plan for returning here was to start something of own.
One of my key reasons for returning was the cumbersome H1B/GC process. After living in the US for five+ years I was still three years away from getting a GC. And this is hugely limiting if you want to work for a real early-stage startup which is where the real excitement is.. and they can rarely sponsor H1Bs.
There is an article by Paul Graham on Founders Visa - http://www.paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html. Honestly, until this becomes are reality I would say that having a H1B and looking for work with a real YC kind of startup is not really feasible and rarely works out.
I do not have answers for the questions you have asked above. But I can share some of my experiences of working full-time in Mumbai, Bangalore and the SF Bay Area.
One thing you have got right for the startup mindset is your desire not to work in the kind of onsite/services jobs that the "big" IT firms from India provide. If you feel you would like to explore some creative/innovative technology start-up type of work there is a good chance you'll have to form your own team and take the leap. While I agree with you that the start-up culture in India is different - I'm not sure I can completely grasp what you mean by efforts/returns ratio is inadequate. "Returns" is very subjective.
I think if you work on some of the strengths of having a start-up in India but with global reach and applications - then there is no reason why you would not be able to get adequate returns as well as the kind of satisfaction.. if that is also something that you are looking for.
I'm available on email to discuss this further..
"I think if you work on some of the strengths of having a start-up in India but with global reach and applications ..." - Can you please elaborate on these strengths of having a start-up in India (apart from lower costs of living)?
well - for one
1. You (the founder of a startup in India) would have a better understanding of the Indian technology consumer market and the application of your idea to the Indian scenario than a tech company which is originated elsewhere.
2. You are in the same time-zone as 1 billion other people. If you have ways or means of crowd-sourcing any tasks needed for your startup - where better to crowd-source than here (of course this depends on how effective are you at crowd-sourcing)
3. If you can spot an opportunity in a crisis - then this place offers you the ideal basecamp to look for those crisis/opportunities.
I could go on.
I guess at the end of the day it all depends on the problem you are looking to solve or the "big idea". For e.g. If your startup is about making it easier for suburban residents to interact with their neighbors or promote neighborhood activities - Mumbai would be the wrong place to start that startup. But if you are looking at implementing infrastructure technologies for dense urban setups than Napa Valley, CA wouldn't be ideal.
I could go on.
I guess at the end of the day it all depends on the problem you are looking to solve or the "big idea". For e.g. If your startup is about making it easier for suburban residents to interact with their neighbors or promote neighborhood activities - Mumbai would be the wrong place to start that startup. But if you are looking at implementing infrastructure technologies for dense urban setups than Napa Valley, CA wouldn't be ideal.
Funny, a little ways below is a thread about people moving out of the US in order to start a startup so they can decrease their cost of living...
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=751742
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=751742
If I were you I'd take advantage of the fact that you're in India to start a local start-up. As others mentioned, your costs will be lower. Not only that, but you may be able to spot opportunities which have already been filled in the US, and "port" those solutions to India successfully.
At the very least, you should be able to make yourself enough money that you can then move to the US without worrying about getting a job.
At the very least, you should be able to make yourself enough money that you can then move to the US without worrying about getting a job.
I think patio11 has some excellent advice. On top of that, why not partner with someone who is already in US? That way you can have benefits of (one co-founder) being in India and benefits of (other co-founder) being in US.
I live in US and I would love to explore options to partner someone in India. Being Indian myself, I know that there are some business models which have very good potential and require presence in India and US both. e.g. selling westerns clothes (with traditional india designs) made in india over web.
I have other ideas too, some geeky, some not-so-geeky. If you are interested, send me a one liner on 'my HN user name' at gmail dot com. we can share some ideas and may be collaborate if we hit it off.
You can try for an E5 Visa (investor) -- the companies here are not exactly high tech but you need $500k
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/smallbusiness/0907/galle...
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/smallbusiness/0907/galle...
How about O1 visas (emporary workers and trainees: extraordinary ability or achievement)? Any experience on how hard is to get one?
The only person I'm aware of in the tech field (though I'm sure there are many) who got into the US on an O-1 visa is David Heinemeier Hansson (Rails / 37signals).
The criteria for O-1 are particularly tough - after all, you have to prove you're extraordinary and world class in your field. I suspect David's application was based significantly around him being the Google/O'Reilly Hacker of the Year 2005. You need to be at the top of your industry (or be talked about as if you were) to get one of those babies..
The criteria for O-1 are particularly tough - after all, you have to prove you're extraordinary and world class in your field. I suspect David's application was based significantly around him being the Google/O'Reilly Hacker of the Year 2005. You need to be at the top of your industry (or be talked about as if you were) to get one of those babies..
I've only heard of mid to large sized companies sponsoring H1Bs, but startups rarely. Maybe they don't have time for the red tape?
I don't know much about the details of H1Bs or implications. But when I was working in the United States (2005 to 2007) I was holding a J1 then "upgraded" to an H1B.
To move to the United States the J1 is the best, in my opinion : nearly no taxes, affordable (~$1,000). But it's limited to 18 months, once in your life.
As for H1B, two problems (for startups) :
- you need a lawyer, and it's a bit expensive. Count at least k$2~3 in legals.
- you need to pay a decent wage. For a software engineer I don't think you can go anywhere below $5,400 a month (it depends on the state, that's in NY...). Anyway it's nowhere in the "surviving on ramen" ballpark.
To move to the United States the J1 is the best, in my opinion : nearly no taxes, affordable (~$1,000). But it's limited to 18 months, once in your life.
As for H1B, two problems (for startups) :
- you need a lawyer, and it's a bit expensive. Count at least k$2~3 in legals.
- you need to pay a decent wage. For a software engineer I don't think you can go anywhere below $5,400 a month (it depends on the state, that's in NY...). Anyway it's nowhere in the "surviving on ramen" ballpark.
What happens if you are working for a startup on an H1B and it goes out of business?
You have around 1 month to find a new job, or you go back home.
This is often cited as the main reason why H1B holders can't negociate wages as high as permanent residents, and end up being paid much less : they can't quit easily without taking quite huge risks, and their bosses knows it...
This is often cited as the main reason why H1B holders can't negociate wages as high as permanent residents, and end up being paid much less : they can't quit easily without taking quite huge risks, and their bosses knows it...
Same here. Unless you're really lucky and find a startup willing to sponsor you, your best bet is probably to do the H-visa thing at a big company until you can get a Green Card. Then you're free to have some fun, as long as you don't stay out of the country for longer than half a year.
That's the route my folks took, though from Germany, so it might be different for you (with per-country quotas and whatnot).
That's the route my folks took, though from Germany, so it might be different for you (with per-country quotas and whatnot).
hii,
i am also based in india.
i wonder have you considered working in good US firms(google, amazon et. al.)in india itself.
the reason i am asking is why one has to move to US if those companies have a presence here(hoping same culture,work as done in US ).
Work culture in India sure is way different and sadly not quite entrepreneurial in nature in fact non-professional to some extent :(
I am not talking about some particular company but the general work culture here.
You know, my friend....one thing you could do is marry an american girl? haha
am sure I'll get genuine answers here. thanks for reading this.