Hello! Sorry for the delay, I thought the thread was indeed dead. Hehe.
Maybe you are right about clamp(), but I still think it's only available through “obscure” means if I may say so. So yeah, a clamp utility would help.
On performance and DevTools:
Take this site for instance: https://bentonow.com
According to Chrome’s coverage panel, 75% of the CSS is unused on the homepage. I’ve seen this pattern on a lot of Tailwind sites. With native CSS, it’s easier to serve styles just-in-time, alongside related components. That way, users aren’t forced to download styles for pages they’ll never visit. HTTP/3 makes this kind of modular CSS much more viable.
As for DevTools, I find them much lighter, simpler, and faster to use with native CSS compared to functional CSS like Tailwind. The DOM is cleaner, and the cascade panel is far more intuitive to explore. Selectors actually mean something and reflect real relationships between content elements.
If you want to compare, you can have a look at https://ecss.info/en and then check out any Tailwind site in the DevTools.
Some real issues with Tailwind I don't see mentioned as often is they should revolve around the lack of some modern and efficient CSS features and techniques and the inefficient, outdated habits it tends to promote as a result.
Over-reliance on media queries and the absence of the clamp() function are just two obvious examples among many others.
Performance and browser devtool usability also suffer under Tailwind (compared to good CSS). Since I wouldn't want to waste time on a “dead” thread, I'll stop here. But if anyone is curious and wants me to elaborate, it'll be a pleasure to do so.
1. some simple selectors can be used in specific contexts (like `html` for type inheritance, for instance). `flex-module` is a component name (albeit a very generic one only used for example purposes...) and `is-loading` is a "state class". I use simple prefixes to distinguish between selector types and `is` is one of them.
2. Breaking changes could be introduced through the Tailwind dependency tree. Some update could be necessary to patch an exploit, again breaking functionality. Updates become routinely necessary. Which is not the case for native code. Also, using new CSS features can be more taxing within the TW ecosystem than in with vanilla CSS. In a nutshell, it's about simplicity, maintenance and the perenniality of your code. On the other hand, you may be "lucky" and never experience something like the above. But I'd wager there's more chance that you will than not. At least, my own dev experience tells me this.
3. Well, I'd say it's a matter of scale... I see 60kb of CSS on Tailwind's homepage. If more than 80% is unused, that's something like 45kb of CSS. I think at this amount, you could see marginal improvements in rendering and loading. At least, more than with comething like 2-3kb of unused CSS. Hehe. But yeah, as I said, marginal. BUT! hehe, with a less monolithic approach to bundling CSS, as with links in components, for instance, there's a real gain to be had: the browser delays reading the files not being used in the current viewport. So, if you footer is not displayed in the first screem it's CSS won't be read, accelerating overall rendering. This, in my experience, makes a palpable difference.
Hope I'm being clear, english is not my first language. And thanks for the mental workout! Hehe.
1. Which part of the cascade do you struggle with? Because it can make your code really simple and efficient!
2. If you link your CSS inside your component you have a direct access to it. A simple editor split suffice to edit it. I would say that's a pretty standard workflow.
3. You can force (with Stylelint, for instance) the use of scoped selectors in CSS files, essentially preventing any selector spillover (which is a real problem). Scoping component selectors inside the one and only corresponding CSS file is important and achievable without complex code dependencies.
4. The drive to define reusable components should already be natural enough on its own! Heheh.
By approaching CSS with the good tools and mindset, you can have a great dev experience while preventing complex dependency chains, third party rules/lock-in. You can also use the most recent CSS features not implemented in Tailwind (looking at you clamp()!) to provide a better end-user experience more easily.
1. The stylelint config will flag any selector not scoped (be it a class or an attribute) to the filename. This way you'll be notified if any selector could be misapplied essentially preventing these global accidents.
2. You could use a build step for this, yes. Personally, I don't because the theme files more or less contain always the same tokens. I rarely add any (colors being the most frequent) and if I do, the cost of it being unused is minimal. My standard full theme file is around 5kb.
3. Stylelint complements my work but isn't necessary. My code does not depend on it to work, contrary to Tailwind, for instance. I'm free to stop using it any time.
4. It's a monolothic file containing all the code needed for the whole site and not only the page I'm looking at now. It may not make that much of a difference in performance, but still, the browser downloads CSS code it does not need now and then must read through all of it to apply needed rules. Not optimal.
By the way, it's great you came back with further questions! Hope to have addressed them at your satisfaction. Still at your disposal if you have more!
1. I don't think I understand why you think flex & grid are barely unusable... without a dozen classes..? Maybe an example would clarify this perception for me.
2. You barely need media queries anymore for responsive design. Auto-adapting flex or grid containers and the use of clamp() reduced 90% of my media query usage. I usually use like 1 to 4 media queries in project (for master layout and responsive nav, for example). And there's a nice side effect to this type of intrinsic design : layout and type is way easier to optimize for every viewport! Mobile first design is really easy to approach in this way.
3. You can apply a dark mode by only switching a theme file with design tokens inside. Way lighter, way easier to read, does not clutter your codebase.
4. As a corollary to the previous point, the defaults you are talking about can be CSS custom properties defined in a theme file as I think, Tailwind 4 will do. You could then use the exact same defaults in native CSS.
5. Simple rules about CSS usage, enforced by Stylelint for example, can prevent the vast majority (and maybe all!) of the cascading problems you mention. Here are some rules and a Stylelint config I posted in a reply below: https://ecss.info. I've got a good track record with teamwork and this config.
CSS solutions may be really easy to use when approached properly. I'm happy to follow up with examples and/or reply to subsequent questions and thoughts!
1. I address the problem of relevance by inserting the CSS right into the component with a link tag. If the component is not used, the CSS isn't either. A positive side effect of this technique is that you always have an easy access to the CSS by following the link in your editor of choice. As for the relevance of the rules inside the component, the said component should be light/simple enough that this isn't harder that glancing a minute (max!) at both files.
2. You can use Stylelint to ensure adherence to specific rules. I have developed a config aiming to prevent these kinds of problems. You can find rules, guidelines and a link to the Stylelint config (still beta) at https://ecss.info.
3. A CSS theme file with custom property design tokens is sufficient. As I understand, Tailwind 4.0 made the switch to CSS tokens. You can thus use the same naming convention for your tokens in native CSS.
As complementary advantages you get future-proof code, no build step, and a lot less unused CSS (for instance, Tailwind's own homepage sports 85% unused CSS!).
I'm happy to elaborate further or respond to any subsequent questions you may have!
I invite (for fun and learning!) anyone here still thinking native CSS provides no efficient solution to the problems Tailwind may have solved 5 years ago to challenge me:
Bring up any said problem and I'll give you an efficient, robust, fast, simple and maintainable way to solve it in pure, native CSS (maybe even with further advantages!).
The time has come to embrace good ol' CSS again! Heheh.
The clamp() CSS function (and auto-adapting grids) can reduce media query usage to a really loooow minimum. Nowadays I use media queries only for mobile nav and maybe layout grid adaptation. Like 2 to 4-5 media queries per project maximum.
I think that's what the comment you're responding to meant.
I started linking component stylesheets directly in the component HTML, de facto eliminating unused CSS from the output. HTTP3 provides performance gains we can benefit from by serving multiple CSS files "just-in-time".
I've had great results since. No more unused CSS. No more minifying nor bundling. What you write is what you get. It's liberating! Hehe.
Yes it's still and always evolving and we need less and less of the heavy JS frameworks to produce interfaces. HTMX is way lighter than React, for instance. And from what I know, it's enough for many, many app use cases.
Why would you need a custom selectbox in the example you provided? Because you could use the menu element with the popup API and AJAX if I understand your example correctly.
On a sidenote, do you know about HTMX? If so, what do you think about it?
CSS was not meant to be used by programmers but by designers... so yeah there's a disconnect there. But that does not mean programmers cannot use it the way it was intended to instead of making it, at great cost, like what they would have wanted it to be from the beginning!
Also, wouldn't you say that there are also many rules and guiding principles necessary to write good javascript? Genuinely curious here.
For the curious, here is a set of "simple" rules for CSS authoring that, coupled with linting (through Stylelint, for instance) can address a lot (most?) of the issues raised in the article and the comments:
You may have to group elements, yes. But generally speaking, they already are grouped in some logical sense. And you can do a lot now with grid, without having to wrap child elements in containers. It's not absolutely separated but to great degree it is (in my experience at the very least).
Quite true, unfortunately. But I think there are benefits that can be "feeled" almost instantly. I think problem is one of focus.
Lots of team leads don't focus on these solutions and their benefits but rather on the most recent technologies and their own benefits while ignoring (or accepting as inevitable) their costs. The longer you look in that direction, the harder it gets to see what you are missing or could get by looking elsewhere.
You can use structural HTML and CSS inside components as their content is already structured and should not change on whim. Same for the first "master" layout layer.
Applying styles with "form" classes like card still is semantic too!
With recent display roles (like grid, flex, contents, etc.) the HTML needed exclusively for layout problems is really minimized if not completely nonexistent.
With `:has()` you can query "up" and "previous".
Some structure in your HTML is absolutely necessary, yes. But I'm not sure it is a problem. Data, content and states have structure.
Classes and attributes should be used for styling purposes, yes. Namespacing and linting can do most of the heavy work of keeping things tidy.
Maybe you are right about clamp(), but I still think it's only available through “obscure” means if I may say so. So yeah, a clamp utility would help.
On performance and DevTools:
Take this site for instance: https://bentonow.com According to Chrome’s coverage panel, 75% of the CSS is unused on the homepage. I’ve seen this pattern on a lot of Tailwind sites. With native CSS, it’s easier to serve styles just-in-time, alongside related components. That way, users aren’t forced to download styles for pages they’ll never visit. HTTP/3 makes this kind of modular CSS much more viable.
As for DevTools, I find them much lighter, simpler, and faster to use with native CSS compared to functional CSS like Tailwind. The DOM is cleaner, and the cascade panel is far more intuitive to explore. Selectors actually mean something and reflect real relationships between content elements.
If you want to compare, you can have a look at https://ecss.info/en and then check out any Tailwind site in the DevTools.
Happy to chat more if you’re interested!