iplusplus · HackerTrans

Are you sure "You’re just ignoring the evidence that’s right in front of you" is a personal attack?

Happy Thanksgiving, Dan.

Please remember to take some time for yourself. HN will still be here.

If you're going to ban me permanently, I believe it would be fair to vouch my replies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18454702

I'm sorry things have deteriorated between us to this point, but you have been acting strangely and using your position in ways that do not fit the whole point of HN, which is pursuit of intellectual gratification. Someone had to call you on it. And predictably, you are now trying to frame me as if I have harassed you, when I merely mocked you.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

Since it's impossible to edit my comment once I post it, here's that Arc patch:

   (def oversubmitting (user ip kind (o url))
     (and enforce-oversubmit*
          (or (check-key user 'toofast)
              (ignored user)
              (< (user-age user) new-age-threshold*)
              (< (karma user) new-karma-threshold*))
  -       (len> (recent-items [or (author user _) (is _!ip ip)] 180)
  +       (len> (keep [is _!type kind]
  +                   (recent-items [or (author user _) (is _!ip ip)] 180))
                (if (is kind 'story)
                    (if (bad-user user) 0 1)
                    (if (bad-user user) 1 10)))))

Now, how are you going to frame this as harassment? Why is this email trying your patience? Why is it a bad thing for me to send you this?

You keep accusing me of being misleading. Yet you won't aim that criticism at yourself.

You have publicly called me a liar and said that I have been harassing you, when I have made it clear this was an intentional decision in order to protest your moderation policies, which have been increasingly political. Do not frame this as if I have done you harm; I haven't. Stop saying that flaws in my personality are why I am not allowed to participate on this forum. And above all, stop acting like a coward and twisting words to fit your own personal desires.

I have been on Hacker News six months longer than you have – a total of 12 years – and if you want to ban me, you'll have to do better than say I haven't been following the rules. I have, and I love this forum. I have met many lifelong friends here. I have tried to talk to you about the "probation" you applied, and you have completely refused to respond. Do not pretend like you have done well here, or that you have treated me with patience.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

In fact he cares so much about this forum that he won't let 12-year members participate fairly on it, and claims that mocking him when he acts like a dictator is "abusive to the community." He considers himself the community.

Don't take this place too seriously. You may find that 12 years later, all of your hard work in writing quality comments is for nothing, just because of the whims and moods of Pilate.

If you try to ask him "Why?" he will not explain the reasons (unless they are very clear-cut and obvious) and instead falls back on demanding respect and unquestioning obedience. It's a shame, because pg's reign was at least tactful.

The worst part is, if you confront him about any of this, he will claim it's not true and ban you permanently if you persist. (Well, if you persist publicly, at least.)

It's a good idea to suck up, though. If you do want to participate earnestly and in the long-term, I suggest getting used to that.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

Current code is at https://github.com/lumen-language/lumen/blob/f7bfd4dca71ed1e... if anyone's curious. It's basically a copy-paste from the official arc3.1 release.

(You can diff with the official sources at https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki/blob/f01d3f9c661eed055...)

Apologies for the nested replies; wasn't able to edit.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

FWIW, React is a built-in feature of the new Arc-in-JS port. Here's how it looks:

  (<a> href: "https://news.ycombinator.com" "Hacker News")

That lets you merge s-expression syntax with React syntax quite nicely.

  (<html>
    (<body>
      (<div> width: "100%" "Hello, world")))

Here's the output of a REPL session.

  $ rlwrap bin/lumen-node

  > (load "arc.l")

  > (print:compile:expand '(<a> href: "https://news.ycombinator.com" "Hacker News"))
  React.createElement("a", {href: "https://news.ycombinator.com"}, "Hacker News")

  > (print:html (<a> href: "https://news.ycombinator.com" "Hacker News"))
  <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com">Hacker News</a>

  > (print:html (<html> (<body> (<div> width: "100%" "Hello, world"))))
  <html><body><div width="100%">Hello, world</div></body></html>

  > (print:html (whitepage "Look ma, no Racket"))
  Warning: Each child in an array or iterator should have a unique "key" prop.

  Check the top-level render call using <html>. See https://fb.me/react-warning-keys for more information.
    in body

  <html><body bgcolor="white" alink="blue">Look ma, no Racket</body></html>

You can see it's actually JS, since you get all the same warnings that you'd normally get in a node repl. (It's literally running on Node.)

And (print:html (msgpage 'shawn toofast*)) spits out a page saying "You're submitting too fast. Please slow down. Thanks."

I find it much easier to generate HTML than traditional methods, and much more maintainable. But it's not fair to claim that something new is inherently better. Time will tell.

I'm most interested in any unexpected warts, but there don't seem to be any so far.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

Be careful. Questioning his decisions will earn you a 3-month ban:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18153219

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18153421

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18153478

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18153499

There is no point in even attempting to ask why.

Ironically, the only people left who are willing to listen are people who I would normally classify as right-leaning nutjobs. I consider myself firmly centrist, willing to listen to anyone with a good idea. But I now have them stuffing my inbox with "I told you so's" and "Isn't this evidence that the left wields its power to silence anyone who disagrees with them?"

It's becoming harder and harder to ignore claims that I would have once considered so absurd as to immediately write off whoever was saying them. But as someone who is currently living with the effects of merely asking "Why?", it's worth pointing out what will happen if you continue to press this.

I used to read a lot of hellbanned comments. I remember thinking "These people... What is their problem? Why can't they see that they deserve to be banned for spouting off such nonsense?"

It's an ironic twist of fate. But the only thing left to do is to try to call out bad behavior, calmly but firmly, and to appear reasonable to whoever is listening. Because, somewhat surprisingly, there are a few.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

The trouble with incurring Dan's wrath is that he's right 99% of the time. That gives the impression that he's omniscient and benevolent, since 99 out of 100 random people will back his decisions.

That puts those of us in the 1% in a terrible position. It's difficult to even figure out whether you did something wrong. And if you conclude that – against the odds – you seem to be innocent, what do you do?

Dan has also given the impression that the community stands by his decisions. This is often not true, but he uses software tricks to make it appear true. As an example, he often flags comments manually, which immediately and unconditionally kills them and marks them as [flagged]. You can tell he does this, because it says [flagged] rather than [flagged] [dead]. I have been quietly gathering evidence for some time now: https://imgur.com/a/2GwVibp

The worst part is, all attempts at trying to discuss the situation are ruthlessly rejected. And since you're bucketed into the same category as some very unsavory people, no one who cares will side with you. And all the rest don't care.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18153219 Not 30 minutes ago, I tried – for the dozenth time – to extend an olive branch and agree to focus on the site's goal of gratifying intellectual curiosity. It was immediately rejected.

As someone who is trying to write a book on Lisp, this must be the ultimate proof that the site is no longer about attracting bookish people. That may have been the original aim, but HN is now intended to be an entertainment site. If your comments do not entertain, expect to be hit. Hard. And the surest way to not entertain is to comment about social issues.

Dan also likes to frame his moderation decisions as reasonable, and will go to great lengths to make them seem that way. For example, all of my accounts were banned two weeks ago, for three months. Dan called this a "probation", which is precisely the opposite of what probation is. He also said that it was possible to continue using HN, since there is a fine vouching system that will grab the good comments.

Very few people read dead comments. I know. I've measured. Effectively, if you're hellbanned, you're screwed. But you turn out to be screwed for a subtle but important reason: It's impossible to post more than two comments every 5 hours. This is a sharp increase from the old limit of five comments every three hours. And if you have made any comment within the last 5 hours, you cannot submit anything. Any attempt to do so will be met with "You're posting too fast. Please slow down. Thanks."

HN also uses many tricks that make it appear the community is against you, when in fact it is the software. For example, I am reasonably certain that there exists a setting which will automatically downvote your comments in certain circumstances. Such a setting has the uncomfortable effect that it is completely impossible to present any evidence of it without appearing to be completely unhinged.

All of this is to say:

Thanks, now I'm regretting not going with the pithier 'ur mom has 5M monthly users' a little less.

Please don't regret having original thoughts. HN is in the terrible position of having so much inertia that it no longer matters whether a moderator is behaving badly, or whether he is using software tricks to make it seem like the community is on his side. And since he is the de facto leader of HN, there is much to gain by being on his side, and much to lose by speaking out.

And again, 99% of his decisions are correct. But when he makes 100 decisions a day, there are a growing number who are the recipient of harsh actions with no recourse. Any attempt at pointing this out is quickly and immediately silenced, and used as evidence that you deserve to be silenced.

-- sillysaurus3, palish, shawn. The condemned. Proudly an HN community member for 11 years. I miss you guys.

iplusplus

8 lat temudiscuss

Could you please stop banning all of my HN accounts?

The first 1k words of my Lisp book are up at https://gist.github.com/shawwn/06812ce37e4dbd49abab277aa836e.... Hopefully the submission will be welcome when it's ready. "Welcome" would include "being able to respond to comments," which is the main concern.

The hardest part is to know what to cut, or whether it's even interesting. It's also daunting trying to measure up to any work that came before. Most people won't give honest feedback, and there aren't many places to post Lisp topics.

I'm extending you a gesture of trust by asking you like this. I could have kept this account a secret. I'm also posting this in a collapsed comment thread, so it shouldn't damage the site. There is no reason to ban this account or to impose a rate or ranking limit.

If this account meets the same fate as all the rest, then (a) I have no idea what your goals are, and (b) I give up trying to change your mind. But at least I'm trying.