tsv_ · HackerTrans

9 miesięcy temudiscuss

Thank you for sharing this example! You've perfectly captured one of my main frustrations: pytest tries to be "helpful" by adding extra context, but ends up obscuring the actual error.

tsv_

9 miesięcy temudiscuss

Thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective, this is exactly the kind of thoughtful feedback that helps me understand different testing philosophies.

Your distinction between assertions (preconditions/invariants) vs tests (things being verified) is really interesting. I can absolutely see how using different syntax helps communicate intent: "this MUST be true for the test to even make sense" vs "this is what we're actually testing". That semantic clarity is valuable, it reminds me of contract programming in languages like D where preconditions and postconditions have distinct roles.

You're absolutely right about the special assertion handling, that's definitely special behavior and I should have been clearer. What I meant was that the expressions themselves evaluate using Python's normal rules without hidden transformations. For example, Playwright's `expect(loc).to_have_text("text")` silently normalizes whitespace, so "hello world" might match "hello world". With plain asserts, `assert element.text == "hello world"` means exactly that: no normalization, no special matching rules. The expression evaluates the same way it would in a REPL.

But yes, extracting the failure details does require machinery that I'm not thrilled about either. It's the one compromise I made to support the plain assert syntax that many Python developers expect. But actually, you can use the `asserts` helper which does exactly what you described without any special handling:

  from vedro import scenario, asserts as _
  
  @scenario
  def calculate_discount():
      product = ...
      
      discounted = apply_discount(product, 0.2)
      
      _.assert_equal(discounted.price, 80.0)

tsv_

10 miesięcy temudiscuss

Thanks for the feedback, it helps me see things from a different perspective.

These are excellent questions, and you're absolutely right that they should be clear from the landing page. I'll work on fixing that.

Short answers:

1. Good point about asserts. When writing the benefits, I was targeting a broader audience (unittest users, people coming from other languages like JS), but the reality is most visitors are probably "pytest escapers" who already know pytest uses assert. I'll reorganize the selling points to focus on what actually differentiates Vedro.

2. The main philosophy is "all you need is functions and their compositions", no special decorators or dependency injection magic. But this is indeed missing from the index page. Will definitely add clear examples showing how to handle common fixture use cases with plain functions.

3. One diff example on the landing page clearly isn't enough. I'll add more comparisons. Since you hate pytest's diff output too, I'd love to hear what specifically bothers you about it, your pain points would be incredibly valuable for improving how I present Vedro's approach.

tsv_

10 miesięcy temudiscuss

Thanks for the support! It means a lot, especially from someone who shares the pytest frustration.

About bare `assert`s. Vedro is actually flexible enough to use any matchers you prefer, but let me share why I stick with plain asserts:

1. In most editor themes, `assert` jumps out with distinct syntax highlighting. When scanning tests, I can quickly spot the assertions and understand what's being tested.

2. The expressions feel cleaner to me:

   assert error_code not in [400, 500]
   # vs
   assert_that(error_code, is_not(any_of(400, 500)))  # hamcrest

3. I like that there's nothing new to learn, the expressions work exactly like they do in any Python code, with no special test behavior or surprises.

Would love to hear what specifically bothers you about bare asserts, always looking to understand different perspectives on testing ergonomics!

tsv_

10 miesięcy temudiscuss

I'm working on Vedro, a Python testing framework as a pytest alternative without the magic and with clear output.

The main idea is that tests should just be Python: plain `assert` statements instead of custom matchers, no fixture magic, and when tests fail you get readable diffs that actually show what went wrong. Tests can be simple functions or structured with steps that self-document in the output.

https://vedro.io

I would be very happy to receive any feedback!

tsv_

2 lata temudiscuss

Each time a new LLM version comes out, I give it another try at generating tests. However, even with the latest models, tailored GPTs, and well-crafted prompts with code examples, the same issues keep surfacing:

- The models often create several tests within the same equivalence class, which barely expands test coverage

- They either skip parameterization, creating multiple redundant tests, or go overboard with 5+ parameters that make tests hard to read and maintain

- The model seems focused on "writing a test at any cost" often resorting to excessive mocking or monkey-patching without much thought

- The models don’t leverage existing helper functions or classes in the project, requiring me to upload the whole project context each time or customize GPTs for every individual project

Given these limitations, I primarily use LLMs for refactoring tests where IDE isn’t as efficient:

- Extracting repetitive code in tests into helpers or fixtures

- Merging multiple tests into a single parameterized test

- Breaking up overly complex parameterized tests for readability

- Renaming tests to maintain a consistent style across a module, without getting stuck on names

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