The brain functional connectome is robustly altered by lack of sleep(ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The brain functional connectome is robustly altered by lack of sleep
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26712339
73 comments
If Magnesium doesn't work for you, you may also consider trying a Melatonin[1] supplement about an hour or so before bed.
I have also seen a big impact of turning off the electronics and reading a book[2] in bed for the last hour or so of the day before trying to go to sleep.
Lastly, if you are a loud snorer or carrying more than a bit too much weight, you might want to investigate any sleep apnoea[3] issues.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin
[2] Actually, I'm usually reading ebooks, but on an e-ink display, not a light-emitting display of any sort, which is the point.
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea
I have also seen a big impact of turning off the electronics and reading a book[2] in bed for the last hour or so of the day before trying to go to sleep.
Lastly, if you are a loud snorer or carrying more than a bit too much weight, you might want to investigate any sleep apnoea[3] issues.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin
[2] Actually, I'm usually reading ebooks, but on an e-ink display, not a light-emitting display of any sort, which is the point.
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea
Melatonin is great but it shouldn't be used long term (more than a couple months). I tried it longer than that and it wasn't good, weird constitutional symptoms.. Also says so on the packaging.
I can second the opinion on Magnesium. Though, instead of magnesium L threonate, I used Magnesium malate. I have tried citrate and orotate forms and while they were both good, compared to malate the effect was mild. The malate form of magnesium had a better calming effect on the mind and muscles.
Will try L threonate next time and see how it works.
https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/
https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/
I had a similar beneficial response from magnesium supplements. I've always had a constellation of health issues, probably genetic, and constant anxiety and was one of the most detrimental to just getting on in life, and later I had much trouble sleeping, either not being able to get to sleep or not sleeping for very long.
I researched nutrition and genetics for many years and tried a number of supplements based on testing hypotheses I would come up with. I generally used the Linus Pauling Foundation guidance on RDA as they are annotaed with a history of how RDAs came about, whether the official RDA is optimal or not, various caveats etc.
Magnesium had a profound effect after I researched bioavailability and tried some of the organic forms. The two main ones that worked were magnesium glycinate and citrate.
I've also went through a phase of having a strong beneficial effect from high dose vitamin B12 (methyl form), which initially caused what I felt was deeper sleep but also intense nightmares; this effect wore off after a while and that might be due to correction of a deficiency.
I researched nutrition and genetics for many years and tried a number of supplements based on testing hypotheses I would come up with. I generally used the Linus Pauling Foundation guidance on RDA as they are annotaed with a history of how RDAs came about, whether the official RDA is optimal or not, various caveats etc.
Magnesium had a profound effect after I researched bioavailability and tried some of the organic forms. The two main ones that worked were magnesium glycinate and citrate.
I've also went through a phase of having a strong beneficial effect from high dose vitamin B12 (methyl form), which initially caused what I felt was deeper sleep but also intense nightmares; this effect wore off after a while and that might be due to correction of a deficiency.
You could also try meditation. It helps one to find a way to turn off the brain when it is not needed.
+1
I'm not an active practitioner of meditation, but I've been using some light mindful exercises [1] when going to bed, and it helped me falling asleep faster. It used to take me 30-45 minutes to shut down my brain; now I can do in 5-10.
Melatonin also helps, particularly when it's getting late and I'm too excited to sleep. I only take 300mcg, which is enough to make me want to sleep. But I use only as a last resort. It sometimes causes very vivid (and infrequently even lucid) dreams, and then my brain doesn't rest as much, and I wake up tired next morning.
[1] Nothing too fancy; just some tips from "Search Inside Yourself" [2]. Basically control your thoughts, empty your brain, focus on breathing, and consciously think on every muscle of your body. Rinse and repeat.
[2] http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0070XF474/
I'm not an active practitioner of meditation, but I've been using some light mindful exercises [1] when going to bed, and it helped me falling asleep faster. It used to take me 30-45 minutes to shut down my brain; now I can do in 5-10.
Melatonin also helps, particularly when it's getting late and I'm too excited to sleep. I only take 300mcg, which is enough to make me want to sleep. But I use only as a last resort. It sometimes causes very vivid (and infrequently even lucid) dreams, and then my brain doesn't rest as much, and I wake up tired next morning.
[1] Nothing too fancy; just some tips from "Search Inside Yourself" [2]. Basically control your thoughts, empty your brain, focus on breathing, and consciously think on every muscle of your body. Rinse and repeat.
[2] http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0070XF474/
Logged in to say the same thing I've said in other threads: mindful meditation works for me. Had some overwhelming stress over the last couple of years which lead me to learn and attempt mindful meditation - works very well for me.
I have panic disorder and have sometimes stayed up all night panicking (sucks) - I tried everything and nothing worked as well as meditation, which has basically cured this for me
This. Meditation has improved my life in so many ways.
What sleep issues did you have exactly? There are many, and magnesium supplementation may not be suitable for all. Thanks in advance.
Some days I wake up after only a couple of hours of sleep. Other days my brain simply won't turn off. I try to sleep, but the brain simply won't stop thinking random stuff and staying awake.
Do you get enough exercise? The kind of exhaustion you get from spending all day and night programming doesn't make you tired in the right way like physical work does.
Watch out for the blue light coming from the screens, too.
Watch out for the blue light coming from the screens, too.
Alright, you convinced me. Sounds very similar to my ongoing situation.
I've been taking clonidine and vitamin d for stress and anxiety and I'm really annoyed with the way doctors prescribe (wrote about this a couple hours ago in this thread -https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10824879)
Was it a drastic change, or something more subtle for you?
I've been taking clonidine and vitamin d for stress and anxiety and I'm really annoyed with the way doctors prescribe (wrote about this a couple hours ago in this thread -https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10824879)
Was it a drastic change, or something more subtle for you?
It made a big difference for me. No, not subtle.
Oddly enough, ASMR videos work great for me (reddit.com/r/asmr)
Just make sure you turn the monitor off on your laptop, or greatly dim it (https://justgetflux.com). Bright light will keep you awake.
Just make sure you turn the monitor off on your laptop, or greatly dim it (https://justgetflux.com). Bright light will keep you awake.
It's just frustrations about things that keep me up, even if they are sort of latent, suppressed frustrations which I've deferred thinking about.
I think most of us have a lot of frustrations about various things, so to me that's the first thing I would look at regarding sleep issues. The guy getting exactly what he wants sleeps well.
More specifically, I'll have trouble falling asleep and then start thinking about what's not good in my life, and I'll often sit up then and there, crack open my laptop, and take some action to at least be closer to making the thing better (writing an email to get the ball rolling, or just reflecting about ways to interpret whatever the issue). I then usually feel more satisfied and can sleep, though I may lose an hour or two doing this.
My point is take a hard look at what isn't going as well in your life as you'd hope.
I think most of us have a lot of frustrations about various things, so to me that's the first thing I would look at regarding sleep issues. The guy getting exactly what he wants sleeps well.
More specifically, I'll have trouble falling asleep and then start thinking about what's not good in my life, and I'll often sit up then and there, crack open my laptop, and take some action to at least be closer to making the thing better (writing an email to get the ball rolling, or just reflecting about ways to interpret whatever the issue). I then usually feel more satisfied and can sleep, though I may lose an hour or two doing this.
My point is take a hard look at what isn't going as well in your life as you'd hope.
I suffered from the same problem for years. I am now finally able to fall asleep in a few minutes. It's hard to explain but I let my mind unguided and coming with images and thoughts like I am already dreaming. Focused thinking completely wake up my brain (the worse being math operations)
And physical activity of course, being physically tired definitely helps
Instead of working on software when you get home, how about zoning out to some TV or movies? I find that after an hour of TV, it is very easy to fall asleep.
I'd give this a try, because meds always have side effects.
I'd give this a try, because meds always have side effects.
Given that they said "But I can't give up my hobby" (zoning out to TV instead means giving up that hobby) and the fact that the solution they found largely solves the problem without the use of meds, why would they bother giving it a try?
Not "watch TV instead of programming", watch TV before bed instead of programming.
I have to do this. I've got a zone of about an hour before my usual 11pm sleep time where if I'm programming, I will not get to sleep until around 2-3am, and the next day will be at least subpar and possibly worse. Sometimes I get so into it that I just don't notice and end up blowing past it, and I pay every time.
It's actually kind of nice to have an hour where I can read for light entertainment or watch some video content or something and do so guilt-free by even the most rigorous standards of productive time use, because I don't have anything net productive I can do in that time. In fact, budgeting entertainment into that time slot is just about the most productive use of that time.
I have to do this. I've got a zone of about an hour before my usual 11pm sleep time where if I'm programming, I will not get to sleep until around 2-3am, and the next day will be at least subpar and possibly worse. Sometimes I get so into it that I just don't notice and end up blowing past it, and I pay every time.
It's actually kind of nice to have an hour where I can read for light entertainment or watch some video content or something and do so guilt-free by even the most rigorous standards of productive time use, because I don't have anything net productive I can do in that time. In fact, budgeting entertainment into that time slot is just about the most productive use of that time.
If the hobby is causing serious problems, then maybe changes should be seriously considered. I would never prioritize my current lifestyle + meds over changing said lifestyle without meds, especially when sleep is in the balance.
That of course depends on whether you consider a magnesium supplement to be "meds". If one is legitimately deficient in some micronutrient, then I hardly think ensuring one gets sufficient amount of that micronutrient to be considered "medicating".
For me personally TV seldomly works. Either in too bored and start thinking about/doing something else, or I start to be really awake and then can't easily stop continuing to watch.
Regularly doing sports and reading fiction (often only 15min, never less than 5) before sleeping works better for me.
But it's perfectly normal to differ here ;)
Regularly doing sports and reading fiction (often only 15min, never less than 5) before sleeping works better for me.
But it's perfectly normal to differ here ;)
I think long walk/run would be better than staring at yet another screen in this case..just my view. I find both running and walking extremely relaxing.
Exercise makes it pretty difficult for me to sleep, for up to 3 hours after. So, if done with the appropriate lead time, it should work.
Personally what I do is 30 minutes of exercise, just as a break in between the two activities(projects), after a shower it allows me to restart with better mood and more energy. Still too early to make me asleep at night time.
"chew some valerian root and get more exercise" - Fight Club
At what time do you take the magnesium?
Shouldn't you be asking your doctor that? And also whether you, particularly, should take such a supplement?
I know this will be an unpopular opinion but Magnesium is conventional enough of a supplement that you can easily get away with trying it on your own without consulting a physician.
If you want to be extremely strict, sure, but that supplement is already in various foods that people take daily.
do you consult your doctor before trying a different brand of coffee?
If merely trying a new brand can cause a medical condition worthy of its own name or if it can have adverse effects depending on other medical issues I might have, then yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermagnesemia
Do you take all kinds of vitamins and supplements with this cavalier, throw caution to the wind, attitude, or just magnesium because you happen to know it's tame enough? Before supplements don't always bode well with existing conditions, or even with high dosages.
Do you take all kinds of vitamins and supplements with this cavalier, throw caution to the wind, attitude, or just magnesium because you happen to know it's tame enough? Before supplements don't always bode well with existing conditions, or even with high dosages.
there are instant coffee brands with extra caffeine added in as well... you can die from drinking the previous quantity of this new brand of coffee!
>you can die from drinking the previous quantity of this new brand of coffee!
Obviously almost everybody knows about coffee and has already tried many brands in their life (even by going to different restaurants or coffee shops) -- including days when they've drank several times their usual intake. Plus, they've seen countless others doing the same, even before they've started drinking themselves (e.g. their parents).
With magnesium or some random supplement? Not exactly the same case.
Obviously almost everybody knows about coffee and has already tried many brands in their life (even by going to different restaurants or coffee shops) -- including days when they've drank several times their usual intake. Plus, they've seen countless others doing the same, even before they've started drinking themselves (e.g. their parents).
With magnesium or some random supplement? Not exactly the same case.
Do you ingest the daily recommended amount of magnesium? I'm not a medical doctor, so ask one ... but high magnesium levels apparently can lead to arrhythmias (they can also treat them in the right context and dosage). So just a word of caution.
> but high magnesium levels apparently can lead to arrhythmias
Not true. It is low levels of magnesium that can cause heart disease. See: http://content.onlinejacc.org/article.aspx?articleid=1121693
Not true. It is low levels of magnesium that can cause heart disease. See: http://content.onlinejacc.org/article.aspx?articleid=1121693
I'm afraid the body is not that simple. Both too little and too much mess with the heart:
> Magnesium is also cardiotoxic and, in high concentrations, can cause bradycardia [#]. Occasionally, complete heart block and cardiac arrest may occur at levels greater than 7 mmol/L. [0]
[0] http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/246489-overview#a4
[#] a type of arrythmia
> Magnesium is also cardiotoxic and, in high concentrations, can cause bradycardia [#]. Occasionally, complete heart block and cardiac arrest may occur at levels greater than 7 mmol/L. [0]
[0] http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/246489-overview#a4
[#] a type of arrythmia
7mmol/L in just the blood supply, when magnesium supplements are in the order of 60mg per pill, would equate to an intake of about 1g of magnesium or 17 perfectly assimilated magnesium pills, in short enough time that the body has not started to eliminate the magnesium.
One to three pills before bed time is not going to pose any kind of risk.
One to three pills before bed time is not going to pose any kind of risk.
Same boat thanks for the tips (you and everyone else in this thread).
How many days before significant changes appeared ?
Barely suppressing my horror at the word 'connectome' to make a relevant comment:
As a new (6 months) parent, I can confirm anecdotally that lack of sleep profoundly messes with the brain. Even getting your normal duration of sleep, but punctuated with lots of short waking periods, makes it almost impossible to function in highly demanding intellectual tasks for any length of time.
And if you have any underlying mental issues (hint: you do), you better believe those are coming to the surface when you've been chronically sleep deprived for 3 months.
Long story short: for the love of all that is good, sleep well. If there's something stopping you, find a way to get help or get away for a while so you can get some real sleep. The ability to think properly comes back remarkably quickly after a good sleep.
As a new (6 months) parent, I can confirm anecdotally that lack of sleep profoundly messes with the brain. Even getting your normal duration of sleep, but punctuated with lots of short waking periods, makes it almost impossible to function in highly demanding intellectual tasks for any length of time.
And if you have any underlying mental issues (hint: you do), you better believe those are coming to the surface when you've been chronically sleep deprived for 3 months.
Long story short: for the love of all that is good, sleep well. If there's something stopping you, find a way to get help or get away for a while so you can get some real sleep. The ability to think properly comes back remarkably quickly after a good sleep.
For better or worse, 'connectome' is a legit term used in the field. It's relatively newish (quickly skimming the literature, first mention was in a 2005 article). It follows the naming convention setup by 'genome', and includes many variants:
- genome (set of dna material in a cell)
- exome (set of exonic dna material)
- transcriptome (set of all messenger RNA)
- proteome (set of proteins in a cell)
- interactome (set of all interactions in a cell -- protein, small molecular, etc)
- metabolome (set of all small molecular compounds / interactions in a sample)
- connectome (set of all connections in the brain -- e.g. a wiring diagram)
etc etc
- genome (set of dna material in a cell)
- exome (set of exonic dna material)
- transcriptome (set of all messenger RNA)
- proteome (set of proteins in a cell)
- interactome (set of all interactions in a cell -- protein, small molecular, etc)
- metabolome (set of all small molecular compounds / interactions in a sample)
- connectome (set of all connections in the brain -- e.g. a wiring diagram)
etc etc
While we're all on the same team, there's also a distinction in the functional connectome (often as determined by fMRI) vs the structural one (determined by viral tracers and electron microscopy). Of course the goal is to see how the two relate. The one described in the article is functional.
Yep, it is, and "functional" means undirected in this context, as contrasted w/ "effective" or directed. These graphs are often defined by stats like Granger causality as well as some partition of the brain.
There's a Prof. named Sporns who has a lot to say about this.
There's a Prof. named Sporns who has a lot to say about this.
I have never slept well my entire life. 4-6 hours a night is my average. It doesn't seem to impact me... I have always felt great, and I have always coded on complicated things without issue.
There has to be a ratio difference for people.
There has to be a ratio difference for people.
Sleeping little != sleeping poorly. I only sleep 5-6 hours in a normal night. But usually very restful (not fitful or waking up a lot) hours.
I second this statement. I did polyphasic sleep for months with a very rigorous schedule, sleeping 4.5h/day, eating well, doing exercise, coding a lot, learning lots with great retention. After the adaptation period I felt great.
Otherwise, I usually sleep 7h - 8h, and that's restful. However, I once had to endure 2 months of pain, waking up every 1h - 3h and having to walk around at night. In total, I slept 7h - 7h30 ... but felt extremely tired, I had trouble remembering words, had no energy, was confused, and found it hard to think ...
Otherwise, I usually sleep 7h - 8h, and that's restful. However, I once had to endure 2 months of pain, waking up every 1h - 3h and having to walk around at night. In total, I slept 7h - 7h30 ... but felt extremely tired, I had trouble remembering words, had no energy, was confused, and found it hard to think ...
Same here. In fact, when I sleep for 8-9 hours, I am profoundly less sharp and productive.
That said, I'm only 20, and I don't want to wreak havoc on my future health. Difficult stuff.
That said, I'm only 20, and I don't want to wreak havoc on my future health. Difficult stuff.
Similar here. These days I usually sleep around 6 hours (used to be 5.15ish). If I sleep longer repeatedly I start to get migraine like headaches. Weird, but at some point I decided it's not worth worrying about.
yes, even I have observed this to be a phenomenon, I have seen people who sleep barely few hours a day but they are energetic and can solve tough problems and stuff like that.
do you sleep during the day? When you sleep 4 hours for couple days straight do you wake up easily with no fuzzy head or anything like that?
I had paid less attention to sleep until I got hit by Appendicitis and I had to be operated, that was a waking call for me to take health seriously, so I stopped all the late night waking and started sleeping at least 6-7 hrs daily. What I have observed is that if you keep everything under check then it won't impact your health much, too much of anything is bad, so I started to daily exercise, meditate
You have no idea how awesome it feels to meditate at 5.30am under a giant tree listening to the sound of birds chirping. Sadly I shifted to a Metro now, so can't sit under a tree, but I do meditate, it helps to clear my mind, meditation + daily exercise = good health
I understand how any trip to the hospital might lead to a reflection on your health. However, I fail to see how appendicitis is related to a lack of sleep.
haha yeah the trip to the hospital lasted less than a week thanks to the advanced way to remove appendix, but since then I started on the proper schedule of sleeping at least 7 hrs a day no matter what, diet, exercise and everything else, so getting enough sleep is the part of living a proper life and the hospital life I have to thank
I wonder if the changes are eventually reverted. How long would it take? Does it always?
With an AHI[1] of [148, 150] across two tests, I'm quite sure my brain is... shall we say.. "uniquely connected".
// I just spent the last few days in the ICU due to the heart problems that come from lack of O2. Not fun. Seriously, get your sleep.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea%E2%80%93hypopnea_index
// I just spent the last few days in the ICU due to the heart problems that come from lack of O2. Not fun. Seriously, get your sleep.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea%E2%80%93hypopnea_index
That sounds extremely unpleasant. What can you do about it, and what are you managing to do?
When I find myself "in a rut" mentally, sometimes a day-night-day of no sleep followed by a night of slightly more sleep than usual does just the trick to make me more coherent and productive.
Sleep deprivation is known to have fast-acting, acute antidepressant effects. This may have something to do with whatever sensation you're noticing.
PDF of paper available?
I watch nature programs narrated by David Attenborough when I need to get to sleep.
There is something strangely calming about observing nature.
But my job as a software developer involves brain-intensive work, and when I come home after work, I work on hobby software development projects, which means my brain is working intensely whenever I am awake. That may be the stress leading to my sleep issues. But I can't give up my hobby.
All doctors want to do is put me on prescription pills for the rest of my life, and all of these prescription sleeping pills are addictive. So I have been avoiding prescription meds.
Then I discovered that magnesium supplements largely solves my problem. I hope this helps someone: If you have sleep issues try Magnesium L-Threonate. Magnesium fixed two issues for me: sleep and muscle stiffness.