You stay classy, Rails.(ruby-forum.com)
ruby-forum.com
You stay classy, Rails.
http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/213412
25 comments
It's not a matter of accurate estimates -- no one can do that -- it's a matter of managing expectations, and that is something a group of open source devs can do: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1545892
Is it possible for both sides of an argument to be wrong?
For comparison, the recent Django 1.2 release estimates:
* Total ticket counts weren't given after RC1 dropped. All open tickets as of RC1 were translation or documentation related.
Update Tickets Blocking RC 1 Est Rel Est
Mar 09 120 -- Mar 22 Mar 29
Mar 16 84 -- Apr 05 Apr 12
Mar 23 69 -- Apr 05 Apr 12
Apr 01 54 23 Apr 19 Apr 26
Apr 07 46 14 Apr 19 Apr 26
Apr 14 49 14 Apr 26 May 03
Apr 22 51 8 May 03 May 10
Apr 28 48 2 May 03 May 10
May 05 --* 0 Released May 10
May 15 -- 0 Released May 17
May 17 -- 0 Released Released
* Total ticket counts weren't given after RC1 dropped. All open tickets as of RC1 were translation or documentation related.
From one of the Rails Core members:
"We, too, are pretty annoyed that the release candidate has dragged on, but we want a candidate we'd feel comfortable deploying to production with our own apps. Thankfully, we've had tons of people testing the betas and bringing the polish up to release quality. That means a short RC cycle."
http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/213412#927556
All told, I have to say that this makes me feel better about Rails 3 than I would otherwise. I'm perfectly happy building apps in Rails 2.3.x, and would rather switch to Rails 3 when the likelihood of it containing showstopper bugs that will make me get up at 4AM to fix production issues has decreased.
"We, too, are pretty annoyed that the release candidate has dragged on, but we want a candidate we'd feel comfortable deploying to production with our own apps. Thankfully, we've had tons of people testing the betas and bringing the polish up to release quality. That means a short RC cycle."
http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/213412#927556
All told, I have to say that this makes me feel better about Rails 3 than I would otherwise. I'm perfectly happy building apps in Rails 2.3.x, and would rather switch to Rails 3 when the likelihood of it containing showstopper bugs that will make me get up at 4AM to fix production issues has decreased.
This Greg Donald guy is totally out of line, but he's just an irrelevant troll.
Edit: to the downvoters, what is your argument that he either a) isn't totally out of line or b) is relevant to the development of Rails or the Rails ecosystem despite his nearly complete lack of open source contributions (http://github.com/gdonald)?
The title here is "You stay classy, Rails," yet there is a single unnecessarily rude response from a Rails core member in response to criticism, followed by a bunch of inflammatory posts by a guy who apparently is just an immature troll who doesn't speak for anyone but himself.
Edit: to the downvoters, what is your argument that he either a) isn't totally out of line or b) is relevant to the development of Rails or the Rails ecosystem despite his nearly complete lack of open source contributions (http://github.com/gdonald)?
The title here is "You stay classy, Rails," yet there is a single unnecessarily rude response from a Rails core member in response to criticism, followed by a bunch of inflammatory posts by a guy who apparently is just an immature troll who doesn't speak for anyone but himself.
No context, link to a flame war, flamebait headline.
Initially, I was going to flag this post. However, the link sets the context for what could be an interesting discussion.
What is the proper way to handle releasing open source projects? Does having a flippant, almost combative, attitude help project development? Granted, I would have preferred a blog post analysis rather with link to this flamewar as part of its evidence. Nevertheless, it could spawn a good conversation, as long as it doesn't turn to a flamewar on HN.
What is the proper way to handle releasing open source projects? Does having a flippant, almost combative, attitude help project development? Granted, I would have preferred a blog post analysis rather with link to this flamewar as part of its evidence. Nevertheless, it could spawn a good conversation, as long as it doesn't turn to a flamewar on HN.
The right attitude to this sort of thing is simple, treat your open source users as you would your customers in a commercial setting.
The fact that the source is open does not mean the general rules of conduct change. A professional attitude coupled with quality stuff is what will get you contributions and respect.
The fact that the source is open does not mean the general rules of conduct change. A professional attitude coupled with quality stuff is what will get you contributions and respect.
I'm perfectly fine with "it's ready when it's ready". But if you choose to give yourself a deadline by saying "RC in days" and a couple of months later there is still no RC, you should be able to empathize with people who are curious about the delay.
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Why is this news? This doesn't belong on HN. One Rails community member got uppity and Jeremy linked the classic DHH FU image as a joke.
Come on people.
You may as well be asking where Ruby 2.0 is seeing as how we were supposed to have it years ago. Instead, most of us use flavors of 1.8.7, dabble with 1.9.x, and haven't heard any fish tales of 2.0 in a while.
As others have said, it's open source. Rails 3.0 will be out soon enough.
In the meantime, someone else mentioned Padrino. As a fan of things minimalist, I'll +1 people taking a moment to look at it while they wait on Rails 3.
Come on people.
You may as well be asking where Ruby 2.0 is seeing as how we were supposed to have it years ago. Instead, most of us use flavors of 1.8.7, dabble with 1.9.x, and haven't heard any fish tales of 2.0 in a while.
As others have said, it's open source. Rails 3.0 will be out soon enough.
In the meantime, someone else mentioned Padrino. As a fan of things minimalist, I'll +1 people taking a moment to look at it while they wait on Rails 3.
From the link:
> I was looking at Padrino recently and rather like it. It's a young framework, nowhere near as mature, but has an interesting architectural "value prop"... and at least so far I haven't gotten any STFUs from the development team. :)
The client shouldn't care how the core team treats his/her developer. The client should only care about the product. While an insult from a core member may hurt feelings, it doesn't make ActiveRecord any less useful.
> I was looking at Padrino recently and rather like it. It's a young framework, nowhere near as mature, but has an interesting architectural "value prop"... and at least so far I haven't gotten any STFUs from the development team. :)
The client shouldn't care how the core team treats his/her developer. The client should only care about the product. While an insult from a core member may hurt feelings, it doesn't make ActiveRecord any less useful.
"The client should only care about the product. While an insult from a core member may hurt feelings, it doesn't make ActiveRecord any less useful."
Maybe. But you know that every lib and app has bugs, so when you start looking at tools you take into account how reliable it is now, and what happens down the line as bugs or issues are uncovered.
If the project members seem to have a shitty attitude about users' concerns, you should have second thoughts.
Realistically you want to look at the big picture and be a bit pragmatic about these things. People should by now know what to expect from various Ruby cliques, decide if it's worth the annoyance, and act accordingly. Overall, stuff gets done in Rails, even if not on the schedule people might want.
However, people should also look at the dozen or so other Ruby Web frameworks and see if their communities might not be more the kind they want to be a part of. The Nitro, and now Ramaze, community, was and is a big reason for my interest. The people and the code rocks.
Maybe. But you know that every lib and app has bugs, so when you start looking at tools you take into account how reliable it is now, and what happens down the line as bugs or issues are uncovered.
If the project members seem to have a shitty attitude about users' concerns, you should have second thoughts.
Realistically you want to look at the big picture and be a bit pragmatic about these things. People should by now know what to expect from various Ruby cliques, decide if it's worth the annoyance, and act accordingly. Overall, stuff gets done in Rails, even if not on the schedule people might want.
However, people should also look at the dozen or so other Ruby Web frameworks and see if their communities might not be more the kind they want to be a part of. The Nitro, and now Ramaze, community, was and is a big reason for my interest. The people and the code rocks.
That's a very polite way to put it, imo. These same people demanding an immediate release would also be the first to weep prose all over the internets upon the first contact with a bug.
No one was demanding an immediate release. They were just asking for some form of communication. Their expectations were set for a release back in June. That date came and went without any information. A month and a half later, it takes someone asking about it just to get "real soon" as a reply.
Go take a look at how Django handles this: http://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/. For the 1.2 release, they posted every week with a detailed update of when they thought the RC would drop, what bugs were holding it back, and what areas needed the most help. Each week, you could see them getting closer, and when they got delayed, you understood why.
Go take a look at how Django handles this: http://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/. For the 1.2 release, they posted every week with a detailed update of when they thought the RC would drop, what bugs were holding it back, and what areas needed the most help. Each week, you could see them getting closer, and when they got delayed, you understood why.
If I used Rails and had to put up with a release cycle that didn't meet my expectations, you can be sure I would fork it. The bunch of people in that thread can organize themselves and get intimate with the source tree (or switch to something else.)
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I want Rails 3 and a white iPhone. Gimme now or I'm going to spend my impatient youth bitching about it in fanboy forums.
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Expecting open source developers to give accurate estimates is kind of silly. However, responding with "Fuck you" is unnecessarily rude.