Fuck You Startup World (2016)(medium.com)
medium.com
Fuck You Startup World (2016)
https://medium.com/startup-grind/fuck-you-startup-world-ab6cc72fad0e
87 comments
I understand and empathize with the sentiment but the rhetorical style really takes away from this piece for me. Peak medium right here. Comes off sounding like a pissed off child more than real critique.
Not worth reading in my opinion.
Not worth reading in my opinion.
I think if you take away the f words, all he is really doing is describing the startup culture, company he works in, nothing more. Albeit in a weird humorous way, maybe to get quick popularity on medium or raise up the coolness factor? In the end he pretty much sums it up as, thank you for making me one of you, just worded differently. Some people just like attention..
That very last line of the article confused me because throughout the article I thought it was a critique of the startup world, but then his message became mixed up. Was he showing self-awareness, or was this whole thing just a tongue-in-cheek fistbump to the startup world? Maybe that's the point. No idea but it took away quite a bit of the value for me.
Yeah, the article was never constructive but before that last line it was at least punk: pissed off and doesn't owe you a thorough explanation. But that line really drives home how little was said.
It’s meant to be a light hearted read (I think). And it is resonating with a lot of folks because it is fairly accurate. Kind of like how my wife (not in tech) thinks of HBO’s Silicon Valley as a comedy show while I think of it as a documentary.
That's what I took as well. Reminds me a lot of the way Denis Leary would give a standup routine.
Hmm.
"Fuck reading a book a week. No one can read that fast. Let me repeat that -NO ONE CAN FUCKING READ THAT FAST."
He/she/it thinks so? Maybe if it's a useless self improvement book. Perhaps he/she/it should practice their reading skills...
He/she/it thinks so? Maybe if it's a useless self improvement book. Perhaps he/she/it should practice their reading skills...
Agreed. I agree with most of the points in this post, but I can’t get behind this one.
I read 1-2 books a week because I prioritize reading time. Usually an hour or two before going to sleep. I find quiet reading time really helps me wind down and sleep better. And, I read thing I enjoy - mostly science fiction novels, nothing heavy. Reading is my time.
More people should make time to just read.
I read 1-2 books a week because I prioritize reading time. Usually an hour or two before going to sleep. I find quiet reading time really helps me wind down and sleep better. And, I read thing I enjoy - mostly science fiction novels, nothing heavy. Reading is my time.
More people should make time to just read.
Book reading can be like watching soap opera, mindless and you don't remember what you read after a few hours.
Good book reading requires introspection, time to digest, etc. Also, why are you reading it in particular? Is it just a story? What for?
Good book reading requires introspection, time to digest, etc. Also, why are you reading it in particular? Is it just a story? What for?
I would agree I used to go though 4 or 5 books an a lot less than a week and still read on average more than one per week.
Obviously if your dyslexic and have problems reading (not all dyslexics do btw) I could accept some people could be slower
Obviously if your dyslexic and have problems reading (not all dyslexics do btw) I could accept some people could be slower
Yup, math checks out. 80k words a book, so say 120k words/week. If you read 200 wpm then this would take about 10 hours or 1.5h per day.
Yep, and if you practice reading a lot, you’ll get much faster and get better comprehension.
Just try to avoid the styles of “quantity oriented” reading practice taught in e.g. law school. Nothing is more guaranteed to make books unappealing as a pleasure activity. People with learning disabilities and reading-oriented jobs may have different experiences with those techniques, though.
Just try to avoid the styles of “quantity oriented” reading practice taught in e.g. law school. Nothing is more guaranteed to make books unappealing as a pleasure activity. People with learning disabilities and reading-oriented jobs may have different experiences with those techniques, though.
Yeah, no.
If you're working 80-90 hour weeks, which isn't a crazy number from what I can tell at a lot of these startups, you aren't reading two or three books a week.
Or rather, it's very unlikely you have the mental capacity left to process what you're reading unless its mindless pap - which is fair, I can dig mindless pap - but that is almost the same creature as watching Netflix or 3 am infomercials.
If you are working two full time-jobs worth of hours each week and are still managing to read books, good job?
If you're working 80-90 hour weeks, which isn't a crazy number from what I can tell at a lot of these startups, you aren't reading two or three books a week.
Or rather, it's very unlikely you have the mental capacity left to process what you're reading unless its mindless pap - which is fair, I can dig mindless pap - but that is almost the same creature as watching Netflix or 3 am infomercials.
If you are working two full time-jobs worth of hours each week and are still managing to read books, good job?
As far as I can tell, having observed this question closely if intermittently for 20 years, those 80-90 hour work weeks are a myth. Which is unsurprising, since self-reported data is famously unreliable.
There's never any independent evidence, and to the extent that you can test the claims, they don't hold up. For example, if you look in the parking lots of these buildings at night or look for which office windows have lights on, it's obvious that they're nearly all empty, and that's always been the case. But both sides in the argument ("yeah I worked that hard" vs. "no one should work that hard") have an incentive to agree on inflated numbers, so they can argue about the rest.
I do remember one startup where the CEO would have a tantrum if someone left before midnight, but that was only for a brief period (the situation was unstable), and even at the peak of that insanity, no one worked close to 80-90 hours a week. People would just come in late the next day. They certainly thought they were working 80 hours though.
There's never any independent evidence, and to the extent that you can test the claims, they don't hold up. For example, if you look in the parking lots of these buildings at night or look for which office windows have lights on, it's obvious that they're nearly all empty, and that's always been the case. But both sides in the argument ("yeah I worked that hard" vs. "no one should work that hard") have an incentive to agree on inflated numbers, so they can argue about the rest.
I do remember one startup where the CEO would have a tantrum if someone left before midnight, but that was only for a brief period (the situation was unstable), and even at the peak of that insanity, no one worked close to 80-90 hours a week. People would just come in late the next day. They certainly thought they were working 80 hours though.
Well, if we can take the position that the lot of the people at start ups are wildly inflating their hours, then, yeah, a book a week is entirely reasonable.
Having occasionally seen people working that much outside of crunch - only at one startup and in the game industry, admittedly - I've just been taking those claims at face value.
Having occasionally seen people working that much outside of crunch - only at one startup and in the game industry, admittedly - I've just been taking those claims at face value.
Yeah, let’s not shame people for reading, even if they’re reading dumb shit or doing it just to brag. Getting practiced at reading fast and well, even if you practice on stupid subjects, is a valuable skill that’ll stick with you for a long time. It’s also something of a gateway drug to reading more broadly, and that’s key to escaping cognitive/cultural bubbles, which is what the article is critiquing.
The author asks, “how about ‘really’ reading that book?”, drawing a distinction between “reading” and “reading + absorbing + reflecting + enjoying...”.
I thought the point was more that the types described in the article were all about consuming self-help or experience books, like Gladwell or Lean Startup, and weren't books by Dostoevsky or books on business case studies or something that actually required critical thinking skills.
A book a week is easy if you don't have anything else to do. I used to read a book every 2-3 days when I was in highschool. Now with kids and family and my company going nuts I'm lucky if I can get 10 pages in per night.
It's all your fault, sorry. I have kids and family and a company too.
Unless you know taneq personally (and I doubt you do by your attack), don't judge him/her. Seriously. You don't know what their homelife is like, so please be civil and refrain judgement. I've worked with a lot of kids, and the amount of attention they require varies wildly, depending on disposition and even health conditions.
Who's judging? What's that have to do with anything? We all have the same amount of time per day, you choose how to spend yours.
Not all families and companies are the same or going through the same thing so while that comment on the surface makes sense I don't think it is 100% accurate.
I do agree that prioritizing time to read is important but at different points in ones life the amount of time/energy available can fluctuate greatly.
I do agree that prioritizing time to read is important but at different points in ones life the amount of time/energy available can fluctuate greatly.
Reply to filesystem dude: He isn't prioritizing kids and family over reading, he is prioritizing his private entertainment time to not include reading. I can't believe all he has left is time for 10 pages per week.
You're too busy attacking, you didn't realize the rate was 10 per night. Depending on the text, that's about 30 minutes of reading for me (I'm not a fast reader) so that' understandable. I barely have 30 minutes to myself after getting up at 6, commuting, working 9 hours, commuting back, making dinner, eating, getting everyone ready for bed, quality time with family, and then finally settling down for the night for some time with my wife. Rinse repeat, where's the time for myself?
Substitute in some housework for the commute and that's basically my day.
Some nights we decide to use our "couples time" for reading, and that's nice but also doesn't happen too often because we do actually need some time to talk to each other as well. :)
Some nights we decide to use our "couples time" for reading, and that's nice but also doesn't happen too often because we do actually need some time to talk to each other as well. :)
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Okay. So the parent poster prioritizes his kids and family over reading. And you're guilting him for that?
Long commute, audiobook, 1.5-2x regular speed.
Came here to complain about the drinking.
When I worked for a startup, they had days where the company bought people beer.
- I don't drink, but I felt pressure to do it anyway, so I could be part of the team.
- There was an alcoholic on the team. Can't imagine what that was like for him.
- People would inevitably get drunk and do stupid shit. I remember when a senior employee got drunk and completely embarrassed herself in front of a client. She was fired the next day.
Can't we enjoy beer at home or at the bar? Why do we have to drink at work?
I get the feeling that for some people, startups are just a way to make college last for ever.
- I don't drink, but I felt pressure to do it anyway, so I could be part of the team.
- There was an alcoholic on the team. Can't imagine what that was like for him.
- People would inevitably get drunk and do stupid shit. I remember when a senior employee got drunk and completely embarrassed herself in front of a client. She was fired the next day.
Can't we enjoy beer at home or at the bar? Why do we have to drink at work?
I get the feeling that for some people, startups are just a way to make college last for ever.
I understand what people say about celebrating a release, but I agree with you that I am against drinking on the job.
I work with several alcoholics, and they are ones that have no desire to get better. It is extremely uncomfortable when management says that you should go out to the bar so you can get to know them better, especially when you drink very little (or several people on my team, not at all). I'm left with the choice, do I socialize and get deal with the potential ramifications, or do I stay away and make myself an outsider?
I work with several alcoholics, and they are ones that have no desire to get better. It is extremely uncomfortable when management says that you should go out to the bar so you can get to know them better, especially when you drink very little (or several people on my team, not at all). I'm left with the choice, do I socialize and get deal with the potential ramifications, or do I stay away and make myself an outsider?
When I try to "get to know people better" I suggest both a bar and coffee shop - usually close to each other - and ask which they prefer. I'm fine either way and don't care about an explanation so it's 100% up to them with less pressure.
Why do you have a problem with the company buying people a beer on some days? would you also object to a company meal put to celebrate a major release.
I've never seen people forced to drink alcohol at social events BTW.
In the real world you have to realise that not everyone is exactly like you and how to get along and work with people from different backgrounds and cultures.
I've never seen people forced to drink alcohol at social events BTW.
In the real world you have to realise that not everyone is exactly like you and how to get along and work with people from different backgrounds and cultures.
> would you also object to a company meal put to celebrate a major release
Not at all. I would object though if that meal only included dead animals.
> I've never seen people forced to drink alcohol at social events BTW.
Social pressure is very real.
> In the real world you have to realise that not everyone is exactly like you and how to get along and work with people from different backgrounds and cultures.
Very true. People need to realize that other people have very complex relationships with alcohol. For some people it's a fun party drink that helps you socialize. For others, it's a poison drink that ruined their family and perhaps took a loved one from them. In my opinion, being more sensitive to the latter is more important than catering to the former.
Not at all. I would object though if that meal only included dead animals.
> I've never seen people forced to drink alcohol at social events BTW.
Social pressure is very real.
> In the real world you have to realise that not everyone is exactly like you and how to get along and work with people from different backgrounds and cultures.
Very true. People need to realize that other people have very complex relationships with alcohol. For some people it's a fun party drink that helps you socialize. For others, it's a poison drink that ruined their family and perhaps took a loved one from them. In my opinion, being more sensitive to the latter is more important than catering to the former.
Because "drinking together" is so culturally ingrained as a social bonding experience that not drinking booze makes you an outsider.
In my country 'drinking together' is also a very important part of the culture, and on Friday's ~4.30pm work stops and the company drinks together. I don't drink and have never encountered any issues with simply saying no (but still attend the event). Curious what negative responses people have encountered.
I wonder too because although I do drink, there have been times where it's just poor timing. I simply say "Sorry, I can't tonight because: antibiotics, driving home, dinner with family, etc, etc" and have had zero issues.
Even hearing "I don't drink" flies just fine.
Even hearing "I don't drink" flies just fine.
Could people then please just stop commenting on people who don't drink. I stopped drinking and to be honest, it is a pain in the ass to listen to lame comments from people trying to be funny.
Well, at the companies I worked for, usually there was a choice of drinks, and people had no problems putting fruit juice in their glasses. If anyone asked why, they said they're driving, and that was it.
> If anyone asked why, they said they're driving, and that was it.
Exactly. Why do they need to ask? Why do I need to invent some reason why I prefer to drink X over Y? If it was coffee over tea, coca-cola over lemonaid, or water over fruit juce, I wouldn't have to justify those choices to anyone but the most insufferable of people trying to transfer their life/health choices onto me. If a colleague is giving me a hard time every day over my choice to drink coffee because "hey, man, I stopped drinking coffee last week and I feel so much better," I'd be justified in telling them to shut up because I just don't care. But alcohol is on the table and I need to think of an excuse, regardless of whether I'm driving or not. It's bullshit.
Exactly. Why do they need to ask? Why do I need to invent some reason why I prefer to drink X over Y? If it was coffee over tea, coca-cola over lemonaid, or water over fruit juce, I wouldn't have to justify those choices to anyone but the most insufferable of people trying to transfer their life/health choices onto me. If a colleague is giving me a hard time every day over my choice to drink coffee because "hey, man, I stopped drinking coffee last week and I feel so much better," I'd be justified in telling them to shut up because I just don't care. But alcohol is on the table and I need to think of an excuse, regardless of whether I'm driving or not. It's bullshit.
For those criticizing the delivery, I think the author is borrowing from a classic Ed Norton mirror rant from the film 25th hour. Probably on youtube.
It's a great scene, which many interpret as more of a love letter to the city than actual vitriol. By the end, one realizes Ed Norton's character, Monty, is mostly mad at himself.
One can arguably make a similar interpretation of this piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OYe3uk8Fi8
One can arguably make a similar interpretation of this piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OYe3uk8Fi8
Funny, that rant turns into a love letter to New York by the end (Norton is expressing his frustration at what he'll miss when he goes to prison). If this Medium rant has a similar denouement it's even more subtle.
There is some throwing out the baby with the bath water here. It's taken me a decade to understand what I value in a working environment, everyone should examine that for themselves, especially people straight out of college. Many of the things listed are tools used by startups to attract young, impressionable people and keep them at the office at all hours. I disagree with that mentality, but it took me a long time to identify that incentive.
10x, Rockstar, Ninja, open office, stock over cash all tend to make me go the other way at this point.
There is also the issue of sweating blood for someone else's success or for toliet paper.
10x, Rockstar, Ninja, open office, stock over cash all tend to make me go the other way at this point.
There is also the issue of sweating blood for someone else's success or for toliet paper.
That's depends stock can be a much more tax efficient way of remuneration - though in the USA employee stock options do seem to be taxed excessively and dont have enough safe guards for the employee
> But more than all, start-up world, fuck you for making me one of you.
There are plenty of bootstrapped startups quietly humming along, working normal hours, where the employees enjoy life and family time without engaging in the culture. You don't hear about them as much.
There are plenty of bootstrapped startups quietly humming along, working normal hours, where the employees enjoy life and family time without engaging in the culture. You don't hear about them as much.
Around here, bootstrapped companies with a successful, but not world-shattering, income stream and business model are referred to--sometimes pejoratively, sometimes not--as "lifestyle businesses." I'm not aware of many aside from Atlassian who, in the purely-tech software-y space, really would have the kind of income streams to suggest HN's definition of "startup".
And those kinds of business are much more my thing, so I am not throwing shade, but there is a difference.
And those kinds of business are much more my thing, so I am not throwing shade, but there is a difference.
I recently went through an interview process at a downtown SF startup, from their words I 'aced' all technical aspects and they were 'dying' to get me in town for an on-site, final interview.
What did the on-site interview consist of? I was scheduled quick meetings with various people in the chain of command, all of whom I had already spoken with (some at great length) and then I was to accompany the whole team out for drinks/happy hour at a local pub.
I don't drink. I told them I don't drink. This was a culture fit test, I never went to the interview as that wasn't a team I wanted to be a part of. I want to write code, work with people who are better/smarter/more experienced than I am in order to better myself - happy hour isn't going to do that.
What did the on-site interview consist of? I was scheduled quick meetings with various people in the chain of command, all of whom I had already spoken with (some at great length) and then I was to accompany the whole team out for drinks/happy hour at a local pub.
I don't drink. I told them I don't drink. This was a culture fit test, I never went to the interview as that wasn't a team I wanted to be a part of. I want to write code, work with people who are better/smarter/more experienced than I am in order to better myself - happy hour isn't going to do that.
You didn't give them a chance to respond to the information that you don't drink?
As someone who also rejected a company because their drinking culture seemed like a big part of their identity (and I don't drink), it depends. In this case, I could sense it was big enough of a contrast to who I am that it wasn't the type of space I wanted to work. There's enough fish in sea to find a better fit.
> I don’t fucking care about the complexity of this code block because I can afford another EC2 instance
Ironically, these words are a good example of start-up mentality.
Ironically, these words are a good example of start-up mentality.
It's a great pity this article got flagged so quickly as it's really interesting, despite the form.
F*ck ranty clickbait tech bro stories on Medium?
Im not sure about some of these.. but this one is so wrong I feel like it should be addressed:
Fuck reading a book a week. No one can read that fast. Let me repeat that -NO ONE CAN FUCKING READ THAT FAST.
Yes you can. If you find this difficult, please start reading regularly. You'll get better at it over time. This should not be a challenge.
Fuck reading a book a week. No one can read that fast. Let me repeat that -NO ONE CAN FUCKING READ THAT FAST.
Yes you can. If you find this difficult, please start reading regularly. You'll get better at it over time. This should not be a challenge.
Books differ so much in size and difficulty that this is a rather meaningless metric.
Even on the fiction side the differences in size are huge (typically 100 pages to 1300 pages) and the ease of reading differs as well.
On the non fiction side the differences in reading speed can be 100x depending on difficulty and familiarity with the material. For example, I'd consider the workload of one semester of my university program equivalent to about three medium sized books, which amounts to two months per book, without a fulltime job on the side.
Even on the fiction side the differences in size are huge (typically 100 pages to 1300 pages) and the ease of reading differs as well.
On the non fiction side the differences in reading speed can be 100x depending on difficulty and familiarity with the material. For example, I'd consider the workload of one semester of my university program equivalent to about three medium sized books, which amounts to two months per book, without a fulltime job on the side.
I find it somewhat difficult. Any tips for trying to get to that rate?
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Just read. You’ll get faster. You don’t need to think about it or rush, just take the time you feel you need and you’ll soon get faster whilst still maintaining the same level of comprehension.
Plenty of people are judged for this shit when they have reading disabilities and learning disabilities. Fuck that advice.
Ok.. that's different. The quote says "no one".. it doesn't say, "I have a learning disability, and would appreciate some understanding and accommodation from my coworkers."
> using no staging environment
This is really bad. I see it very often and I really, really don't understand the reason for that.
This is really bad. I see it very often and I really, really don't understand the reason for that.
> pushing to production 100 times a day
Its just automation -- nothing to be bragged about. Silly stuff we all love.
Its just automation -- nothing to be bragged about. Silly stuff we all love.
The startup world is big enough that this says little more than "Fuck You World".
Fellow seems seriously f*-up. Perhaps a mandatory vacation is in the cards?
Or, you know, seriously sane, and it's the things he complains about that are fucked up.
Indeed :p
This title, in addition to being obvious click bait, contains inappropriate and offensive language. Profanity is generally used by people too stupid to come up with something more intelligent to say.
You might consider reviewing the research on people who frequently use profanity.
Hope you’re not getting too much saddle rash on that high horse!
The only thing I got from this post is that I want to seriously avoid working with a person who expresses themselves in such an unproductive way.
Look, just because people care about some things that you don’t seem to care about doesn’t mean you get to step into their world and tell them that everything they do is wrong using vulgar language. If you don’t like the culture, leave.
If you think aspects of the culture can be improved, then help in identifying the problems and offer constructive solutions. Instead this guy just says “Fuck XYZ” a hundred times and thinks he has some unique insight to offer.
Look, just because people care about some things that you don’t seem to care about doesn’t mean you get to step into their world and tell them that everything they do is wrong using vulgar language. If you don’t like the culture, leave.
If you think aspects of the culture can be improved, then help in identifying the problems and offer constructive solutions. Instead this guy just says “Fuck XYZ” a hundred times and thinks he has some unique insight to offer.
Judging from the commentary surrounding the piece, it seems like it was mostly tongue in cheek. I think something productive to take away from the piece is to sincerely ask whether any of the points he raises are valid, and I think some of them are.
The points in the article are tired, un-compelling points. They don't highlight anything new that hasn't been meme'd a million times already.
He does, but you're so distracted by the fucks that you didn't notice ;)
>The only thing I got from this post is that I want to seriously avoid working with a person who expresses themselves in such an unproductive way.
God forbid somebody's frustration with BS isn't productively expressed!
God forbid somebody's frustration with BS isn't productively expressed!
You're right of course, but it's always better to fight BS with something as close to objective truth as possible, rather than even more BS.
Reacting to BS with one's own BS is totally understandable given the emotions involved, I don't blame anyone for that. But ultimately it does nothing to help counter the BS that was being reacted to.. It mostly just provides an emotional outlet for the author (which is fine, a lot of great writing has no higher goal).
However, if someone's goal is to help change the state of things for the better, much better to start making shovels and passing them around, than to manufacture one's own "good" BS to counter preexisting "evil" BS. This is an observation about the world in general, nothing specific to this article. Less BS is always better than more BS, always and forever.
Reacting to BS with one's own BS is totally understandable given the emotions involved, I don't blame anyone for that. But ultimately it does nothing to help counter the BS that was being reacted to.. It mostly just provides an emotional outlet for the author (which is fine, a lot of great writing has no higher goal).
However, if someone's goal is to help change the state of things for the better, much better to start making shovels and passing them around, than to manufacture one's own "good" BS to counter preexisting "evil" BS. This is an observation about the world in general, nothing specific to this article. Less BS is always better than more BS, always and forever.
Some times the use of blunt language is appropriate - yes its a hard call and you have to be careful how and when you use it
> The only thing I got from this post is that I want to seriously avoid working with a person who expresses themselves in such an unproductive way.
Everything in this world is about being productive
Everything in this world is about being productive
I remember reading a great article a while ago about how, since the industrial revolution, it is common to judge people against the same criteria that we judge machines. So we ask about "productivity", "efficiency", and "time in operation", rather than the classical virtues like "judgement", "integrity" and "humility". I wish I could remember the name of that piece.
I expressed a personal preference. If you enjoy working with someone who would put out a memo in this style, then that's up to you. But my personal preference (which I'm happy to take even more downvotes for) is to not work with someone like this.
I just didn't find this piece compelling in any way. I think someone like DHH offers a more valuable criticism of the downsides to startup culture - and as a bonus he sets a real world example of some of the solutions he'd like to see more broadly by implementing some of them in his own company.
Meanwhile, this particular author writes a post like this and then goes and works for WeWork. There's a hint of irony somewhere here.
I just didn't find this piece compelling in any way. I think someone like DHH offers a more valuable criticism of the downsides to startup culture - and as a bonus he sets a real world example of some of the solutions he'd like to see more broadly by implementing some of them in his own company.
Meanwhile, this particular author writes a post like this and then goes and works for WeWork. There's a hint of irony somewhere here.
Why would you want to work with someone who actively undermines the productive capacity of the workplace? All that means is everyone else has to work harder to balance them out.
There are plenty of people who'd say frat culture undermines the productive capacity of the workplace, likewise with alcohol or being able to hit on others, or difficulties people have because hookup culture is now a thing. Both extremes of that are clearly terrible... there's really no right answer.
I don't disagree. My comment was specifically geared towards the comment thread calling out productive communication, and whether or not that's a valid characteristic of a desirable coworker (as well as the inverse).
Some consider it an ideology called “Economism”
My comment from back then:
> Although I genuinely miss Valleywag and all the absurdity that it covered (e.g. Clinkle), I'm not sure if this is a fair critique of startup culture outside of having the excuse to say the F word a lot. As someone living in San Francisco, I can say that there are more to startups and startup culture than the stereotypes seen in Medium thought pieces and the Hacker News front page, although given the end of this particular Medium thought piece, that may be the point.
Given that the OP now works at WeWork, I suppose the startup world can't be f'ed forever.