Simple Dockerfile examples are often broken by default(pythonspeed.com)
pythonspeed.com
Simple Dockerfile examples are often broken by default
https://pythonspeed.com/articles/dockerizing-python-is-hard/
160 comments
> The first version is to lock down every dependency as tightly as you can to avoid accidentally breaking something...The second version is upgrade early, upgrade often...Google is an excellent example of a company that does this.
This is misleading. My understanding of Google's internal build systems is that they ruthlessly lock down the version of every single dependency, up to and including the compiler binary itself. They then provide tooling on top of that to make it easier to upgrade those locked down versions regularly.
The core problem is that when your codebase gets to the kind of scale that Google's has, if you can't reproduce the entire universe of your dependencies, there is no way any historical commit of anything will ever build. That makes it difficult to do basic things like maintain release branches or bisect bugs.
> if you want to lock down version numbers for a specific release, have an automated tool supply the right ones for you. And make it trivial to upgrade early, and upgrade often.
This part sounds like a more accurate description of what Google and others do, yes.
This is misleading. My understanding of Google's internal build systems is that they ruthlessly lock down the version of every single dependency, up to and including the compiler binary itself. They then provide tooling on top of that to make it easier to upgrade those locked down versions regularly.
The core problem is that when your codebase gets to the kind of scale that Google's has, if you can't reproduce the entire universe of your dependencies, there is no way any historical commit of anything will ever build. That makes it difficult to do basic things like maintain release branches or bisect bugs.
> if you want to lock down version numbers for a specific release, have an automated tool supply the right ones for you. And make it trivial to upgrade early, and upgrade often.
This part sounds like a more accurate description of what Google and others do, yes.
A larger problem is that Docker is nearly inherently unreproducible.
Downloading and installing system packages lists, etc.
For this reason, Google doesn't use Docker at all.
It writes the OCI images more or less directly. https://github.com/bazelbuild/rules_docker
Downloading and installing system packages lists, etc.
For this reason, Google doesn't use Docker at all.
It writes the OCI images more or less directly. https://github.com/bazelbuild/rules_docker
well also docker's sha hash for each layer is just a random sha and not a sha of the actual content.
also it includes a timestamp.
thus docker is not reporducible.
but google actually has kaniko and jib which correct that problem.
Your first point is incorrect. That was true of v1 docker images, but layers have been content-addressable for a while now.
Your second point is absolutely correct - we strip timestamps from everything which tends to confuse folks :)
Your second point is absolutely correct - we strip timestamps from everything which tends to confuse folks :)
> true of v1 docker images
yeah I missed that one. but basically it was still a pain. But yeah google's tools are actually awesome. I mean I even own a "fork" (or basically a plugin) for sbt which brings jib to sbt: https://github.com/schmitch/sbt-jib It's just so much easier to build java/scala images with jib than it is with plain docker.
yeah I missed that one. but basically it was still a pain. But yeah google's tools are actually awesome. I mean I even own a "fork" (or basically a plugin) for sbt which brings jib to sbt: https://github.com/schmitch/sbt-jib It's just so much easier to build java/scala images with jib than it is with plain docker.
Thou shalt be able to recognise the Unix Epoch 0
Yes they have a huge mono repository and tooling to update projects in it to specific versions. You don't get a choice really. You can go home one night with your project on say Java 7 and then wake up and find someone has migrated it to Java 8 because they've decided it's Java 8 now.
But that change only happened once all the tests for "your project" passed on Java 8.
So now you're saying that I have to write tests?
/s
/s
There is in fact something of a philosophy at Google that it's both your problem and your fault if a dependency upgrades in a way that breaks your project without breaking any of your tests.
This is the crucial difference. Library developers at Google know all their reverse dependencies, and can easily build, test, notify, or fix all of them.
You can't do that with external FOSS libraries. The closest thing we have is deprecation log messages and blog posts with migration guides.
You can't do that with external FOSS libraries. The closest thing we have is deprecation log messages and blog posts with migration guides.
Their external FOSS dependencies are imported into the monorepo and are built from there. So they get to use the same pattern there. Someone who updates the copy of the dependency in the monorepo will see the test failures of their reverse dependencies at that time, before the change is merged to master.
(Yeah they use different version control terminology since their monorepo doesn't use git, but I've translated.)
(Yeah they use different version control terminology since their monorepo doesn't use git, but I've translated.)
> The closest thing we have is deprecation log messages and blog posts with migration guides.
Rust has crater, which can at least build/test/notify over a large chunk of the rust FOSS ecosystem. It won't pick up every project, granted, and I haven't heard of anyone really using it outside of compiler/stdlib development itself, but it's an example of something a bit closer to what google has.
Rust has crater, which can at least build/test/notify over a large chunk of the rust FOSS ecosystem. It won't pick up every project, granted, and I haven't heard of anyone really using it outside of compiler/stdlib development itself, but it's an example of something a bit closer to what google has.
For an easy open source example of such tooling, see Pyup.
We use it to do exactly that: pin down every dependency to an exact version, but automatically build and test with newly released versions of each one. (And then merge the upgrade, after fixing any issue.)
We use it to do exactly that: pin down every dependency to an exact version, but automatically build and test with newly released versions of each one. (And then merge the upgrade, after fixing any issue.)
Or the original ruby bundler, which locks down exact versions in a `Gemfile.lock`, but lets you easily update to latest version(s) with `bundle update`, which will update the `Gemfile.lock`.
Actually, it goes further, `bundle update` doesn't update just to "latest version", but to latest version allowed by your direct or transitive version restrictions.
I believe `yarn` ends up working similar in JS?
To me, this is definitely the best practice pattern for dependency management. You definitely need to ruthlessly lock down the exact versions used, in a file that's checked into the repo -- so all builds will use the exact same versions, whether deployment builds or CI builds or whatever. But you also need tooling that lets you easily update the versions, and change the file recording the exact versions that's in the repo.
I'm not sure how/if you can do that reliably and easily with the sorts of dependencies discussed in the OP or in Dockerfiles in general... but it seems clear to me it's the goal.
Actually, it goes further, `bundle update` doesn't update just to "latest version", but to latest version allowed by your direct or transitive version restrictions.
I believe `yarn` ends up working similar in JS?
To me, this is definitely the best practice pattern for dependency management. You definitely need to ruthlessly lock down the exact versions used, in a file that's checked into the repo -- so all builds will use the exact same versions, whether deployment builds or CI builds or whatever. But you also need tooling that lets you easily update the versions, and change the file recording the exact versions that's in the repo.
I'm not sure how/if you can do that reliably and easily with the sorts of dependencies discussed in the OP or in Dockerfiles in general... but it seems clear to me it's the goal.
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I’d imagine this is easier now with dependabot joining Github, being free for all, and implementing a proper CI test system for your repos.
Logically, the next step is supporting such infra for containers. Automate all the mundane regression/security/functionality testing while driving dependency upgrades forward.
Logically, the next step is supporting such infra for containers. Automate all the mundane regression/security/functionality testing while driving dependency upgrades forward.
> Google is an excellent example of a company that does this.
Which part of Google would that be? My impression is the complete opposite, dependencies are not only locked down and sometimes even maintained internally.
Which part of Google would that be? My impression is the complete opposite, dependencies are not only locked down and sometimes even maintained internally.
Yeah but only google is google. You are not google, your code doesn’t need to google scale and you don’t need to go to their extremes to manage dependencies. They do it because they are forced to, doesn’t mean it is right or their way is how it should work for everyone.
I haven't worked at Google, but I have worked at Facebook, and I can say with some confidence that in this respect Facebook is Google too :)
For sure there are tradeoffs for big projects that don't make sense for small ones. But there are also times where big projects need a tool that's "just better" than what small projects need, and once that tool has been built it can make sense for everyone to use it. I think good, strong, convenient version pinning is an example of the latter, when the tools are available. That was the inspiration for the peru tool (https://github.com/buildinspace/peru).
For sure there are tradeoffs for big projects that don't make sense for small ones. But there are also times where big projects need a tool that's "just better" than what small projects need, and once that tool has been built it can make sense for everyone to use it. I think good, strong, convenient version pinning is an example of the latter, when the tools are available. That was the inspiration for the peru tool (https://github.com/buildinspace/peru).
I agree with this, but I think to the extent that such tools are lacking (or at least that the overhead is prohibitively high for smaller projects), the parent is correct. Thanks for tipping me off to peru; hadn't seen that before.
This isn't really a 'wow, look at the crazy stuff Google needs' thing.
Any tiny open source project benefits from a reproducible build (when you come back to it months later) and also new versions (with fixed vulnerabilities, and compatibility with the new thing you're trying to do).
Any tiny open source project benefits from a reproducible build (when you come back to it months later) and also new versions (with fixed vulnerabilities, and compatibility with the new thing you're trying to do).
No not really, any tiny open source project isn’t worth the hassle of making a reproducible build for.
Well, I look at reproducible as a scale (and incidentally, with an increase in effort as you slide along it, too).
A certain amount of reproducibility - a container, pinned dependencies - gives such large reward for how easy it is to achieve that it absolutely is worth it for a tiny open source project.
Worrying about the possibility of unavailable package registries and revoked signing keys, on the other hand, probably isn't.
It's a trade-off. But you certainly don't need to be Google-scale for some of it to be very worth your while.
A certain amount of reproducibility - a container, pinned dependencies - gives such large reward for how easy it is to achieve that it absolutely is worth it for a tiny open source project.
Worrying about the possibility of unavailable package registries and revoked signing keys, on the other hand, probably isn't.
It's a trade-off. But you certainly don't need to be Google-scale for some of it to be very worth your while.
I think this depends on your definition of "reproducible build." If you're talking about builds being bit for bit identical, that might not be worthwhile given the complexities of doing so with most build tools. But if you mean the same versions being used for dependencies, then absolutely.
Yes, I agree completely, as replied to sibling:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20032980
If I remember correctly Angular comes with unpinned dependencies.
The package.json file specifies unpinned dependencies.
The package-lock.json or yarn.lock or similar specifies the pinned dependencies.
The package-lock.json or yarn.lock or similar specifies the pinned dependencies.
Correct.
But neither the package-lock.json or the yarn.lock file is part of what you get when you create an angular project using the angular cli, meaning that the versions aren't pinned from googles side.
But neither the package-lock.json or the yarn.lock file is part of what you get when you create an angular project using the angular cli, meaning that the versions aren't pinned from googles side.
A. Nobody wants that. The reality is you're going to be using dozens of other libraries and will welcome wiggle room on how many versions your output includes. You want the list to be consistent and versioned, but you don't need the exact same one as Google.
B. If you really want to know what Angular is being tested with, see https://github.com/angular/angular/blob/master/yarn.lock
B. If you really want to know what Angular is being tested with, see https://github.com/angular/angular/blob/master/yarn.lock
> The post assumes that the first version should be your model.
No, it doesn't. It just assumes that you want explicit control over when you upgrade. You can always change your Dockerfile or your requirements.txt and build again when you've tested your software against a new Python version or a new version of a package. You can do that as often as you like, so this is perfectly consistent with "upgrade early, upgrade often". But not specifying exact versions in those files means they can get upgraded automatically when you haven't tested your software with them, which can break something.
No, it doesn't. It just assumes that you want explicit control over when you upgrade. You can always change your Dockerfile or your requirements.txt and build again when you've tested your software against a new Python version or a new version of a package. You can do that as often as you like, so this is perfectly consistent with "upgrade early, upgrade often". But not specifying exact versions in those files means they can get upgraded automatically when you haven't tested your software with them, which can break something.
From what I've seen, explicit version control does not really work unless there's an organizational force toward timely upgrade. In every company, everyone's busy, nobody has time to look at a service that's been running fine for six months (and risk getting paged "Why did you change it? It suddenly stopped working for us!"). The path of the least resistance is to not upgrade anything that's running "fine", and then old versions and their dependencies accumulate, and when you actually have to upgrade it becomes much more painful.
It might work if there's a dedicated team whose mission is upgrade dependencies for everyone in time, but I haven't seen one in action so I'm not sure how well it might work out. (Well, unless you count Google as one such example. But Google does Google things.)
It might work if there's a dedicated team whose mission is upgrade dependencies for everyone in time, but I haven't seen one in action so I'm not sure how well it might work out. (Well, unless you count Google as one such example. But Google does Google things.)
Totally agree with you. At my current company we've got a devpy repository where almost everything is ancient. Even trying to add a more modern version for your own service doesn't work because some people have pinned versions and some people haven't. It's not ideal.
At my last company (a smaller startup) we used to have a Jenkins job which would open a pull request with all of the requirements.txt updated to the latest available pypi version. That worked pretty well, you always had a pull request open were you could review what was available, it would run the test suite, you could check it out and try it, hit merge if everything looked good and roll it back if it caused an issue somewhere. It made it easy to trace where things changed but not as 'cowboy' as accepting all changes without any review or traceability.
At my last company (a smaller startup) we used to have a Jenkins job which would open a pull request with all of the requirements.txt updated to the latest available pypi version. That worked pretty well, you always had a pull request open were you could review what was available, it would run the test suite, you could check it out and try it, hit merge if everything looked good and roll it back if it caused an issue somewhere. It made it easy to trace where things changed but not as 'cowboy' as accepting all changes without any review or traceability.
Updating pinned dependencies is a form of paying down tech debt. You want to do it as quickly as you can afford to, but not mandate doing it robotically. If a new python version comes out, great, but mitigating a site outage is not the right time to try it.
> From what I've seen, explicit version control does not really work unless there's an organizational force toward timely upgrade.
I agree. But that doesn't contradict what I was saying. I was not saying that explicit version control always works. I was only saying that it is perfectly compatible with "upgrade early, upgrade often", since the post I was responding to claimed the contrary.
Also, if an organization can't reliably accomplish timely explicit upgrades, I doubt it's going to deal very well with unexpected breakage resulting from an automatic upgrade either.
I agree. But that doesn't contradict what I was saying. I was not saying that explicit version control always works. I was only saying that it is perfectly compatible with "upgrade early, upgrade often", since the post I was responding to claimed the contrary.
Also, if an organization can't reliably accomplish timely explicit upgrades, I doubt it's going to deal very well with unexpected breakage resulting from an automatic upgrade either.
And then you've just moved the immutability boundary to include the whole Docker image (including the application itself).
Enters dependabot and it's nice integration with Github
You get pinned versions that get updated when needed
You get pinned versions that get updated when needed
> and risk getting paged "Why did you change it? It suddenly stopped working for us!"
So, the alternative is that it suddenly stops working, but caused by the update being available instead of by any explicit action on your part. You'll have more time to react to the problem in this scenario than the other?
So, the alternative is that it suddenly stops working, but caused by the update being available instead of by any explicit action on your part. You'll have more time to react to the problem in this scenario than the other?
Isn't this dichotomy the whole point of dependency locking? Sometimes, you want to specify that your code requires a specific version. Sometimes, you just want to keep track of the most recent version that the code has been tested with. They are two totally different needs
I learned the hard way to lock down dependencies. Long ago, in a galaxy far far away, I was doing some Java/SQL Server stuff. We upgraded Java (which was badly needed), and immediately all the SQL stuff stopped working, which led to a few days of paralyzed bafflement.
Found out a few days later that the official release of the JVM broke the Microsoft SQL Server drivers, and Oracle had to ship a new version out asap. Meanwhile, we lost days of work.
Of course, that was also the bad old days of bad old configuration management. But I'd never do something like put an arbitrary version of a language driver in a Dockerfile, not for production.
edit: Of course, the main reason we get scared to upgrade is because we often can't easily back out the change. Docker fixes a lot of that.
Found out a few days later that the official release of the JVM broke the Microsoft SQL Server drivers, and Oracle had to ship a new version out asap. Meanwhile, we lost days of work.
Of course, that was also the bad old days of bad old configuration management. But I'd never do something like put an arbitrary version of a language driver in a Dockerfile, not for production.
edit: Of course, the main reason we get scared to upgrade is because we often can't easily back out the change. Docker fixes a lot of that.
Yeah, seriously, having been in the nightmare that is trying to rollback on systems not designed for it, it is my number one (background) priority to get systems to a place where rolling forward isn't the only answer for trying to rollback. I tell you virtualization really made my life easier, being able to at least take a snapshot prior to major upgrades was a game changer. After that, finally getting chef to the point where we could rebuild production in a mostly repeatable way (dependency chains can only be tamed so far without increasing infrastructure costs) really made dev work easier. Using chef kitchen to trivial build a new VM to know that you're close to production really helped reduce dev time by a lot (even if it seemed like the chef recipes would break in subtle ways every month or so). I've been watching Docker for years now, and am hoping it's hit the tipping point where the benefits outweigh the added complexity. I suspect my next gig that's lacking reproducibility I'll start with docker rather than chef and see how far that takes me.
I think of such virtualization as "rolling back by rolling forward". I can just deploy whatever version I want, when I want. If I don't like what's there, I can deploy a different version that happens to be an earlier version.
Docker by itself isn't enough. But Docker in concert with Kubernetes (or Openshift, in my world) is very, very powerful.
Docker by itself isn't enough. But Docker in concert with Kubernetes (or Openshift, in my world) is very, very powerful.
> we often can't easily back out the change. Docker fixes a lot of that.
Software can be hard to downgrade. Sometimes dependencies change. Sometimes data models are migrated one way only. Nobody takes the time to properly test them. Among other things.
How Docker, or any other container packaging format for that matter, could possibly help with that I do not understand. It is not the first time I've heard something like this, but I have never been in a situation where the application packaging was part of this particular problem.
Surely starting the an old version of some software isn't neither harder nor easier with Docker than any other way.
Software can be hard to downgrade. Sometimes dependencies change. Sometimes data models are migrated one way only. Nobody takes the time to properly test them. Among other things.
How Docker, or any other container packaging format for that matter, could possibly help with that I do not understand. It is not the first time I've heard something like this, but I have never been in a situation where the application packaging was part of this particular problem.
Surely starting the an old version of some software isn't neither harder nor easier with Docker than any other way.
Having the old Docker image makes it easy to revert to it. Whether this is easier or harder depends on what other way people were doing deployment.
Sometimes people don't have good deployment processes that automatically back up whatever they deployed. They might even have installed stuff manually, so they don't know how they did it last time. In that case Docker helps. The build might not be reproducible, but at least you have the binary.
Sometimes people don't have good deployment processes that automatically back up whatever they deployed. They might even have installed stuff manually, so they don't know how they did it last time. In that case Docker helps. The build might not be reproducible, but at least you have the binary.
The container contains many dependencies. If designed correctly, I can lock down my dependencies out to the port level. It's not that application packaging is itself the problem... it's that I have control over the environment. I can build a Docker image, test it, and know that is exactly the environment I'll be running in, out to the services level. No worrying about someone upgrading JBoss or the OS or openssl or something without me knowing about it or having any control over it.
You have to have tests and you need a CI that will scan your requirements.txt regularly and throw a warning when they're out of date.
Test are ESSENTIAL. You should be able to bump all your versions, run your tests and fix the errors. If something gets through broken, then you know where to add a test (before you fix it).
You should pin versions for your sanity. You should also have a process (a weekly process) to deal with updates to dependencies. Dependency Rot will catch up with you!
Test are ESSENTIAL. You should be able to bump all your versions, run your tests and fix the errors. If something gets through broken, then you know where to add a test (before you fix it).
You should pin versions for your sanity. You should also have a process (a weekly process) to deal with updates to dependencies. Dependency Rot will catch up with you!
Maybe this is pedantry, but I have a problem with "if something gets through broken, then you know where to add a test". No. If something gets through broken, your tests have failed to fulfill their purpose.
> The first version is to lock down every dependency as tightly as you can to avoid accidentally breaking something. Which inevitably leads down the road to everything being locked to something archaic that can't be upgraded easily, and is incompatible with everything else. But with no idea what will break, or how to upgrade. I currently work at a company that went down that path and is now suffering for it.
If you use a system like nix or guix, this concern is largely obviated.
If you use a system like nix or guix, this concern is largely obviated.
At my previous workplace we were using https://greenkeeper.io/ and locking dependencies, which i think may be the perfect compromise between those 2 systems of organization. You get pinned dependencies, resulting in stable builds. For every package update (automatically scanned), you get a branch spawned w/ tests run if you've set up CI. It makes staying up to date easy when it's an easy upgrade (just merge a green branch!), and you get isolated knowledge up-front when a dependency has upgraded and you're gonna need to budget some time on it.
GitHub just bought Dependabot, so something like this is now available in beta and eventual general availability for all GitHub users.
I think the last option you mentioned is (effectively) the best of both worlds. Lock down dependencies explicitly for the sake of reproducibility, but make it very easy to upgrade (as automatically as possible).
Not sure about Python, but I think its language specific. In the JS world, we have "yarn upgrade" which bumps all non-major versions of your dependencies to the latest. It then locks them in until the next time you upgrade something. There are other actions that may also upgrade them, but it's always through a dependency change in some way.
I still think the overall advice is good. We depend on node in our Dockerfile like this:
FROM node:11
If we went further into the version, of course we'd be even better off probably, but there's a tiny point to make here. We don't build any docker images for deployments from dev to production. In fact the last time a docker build is run is for the development environment. After that it's just carrying the image from dev to qa to stg to prod, and we simply change the configuration file along the way.
This makes it so that we're not re-building again and possibly getting a different set of binaries that were not tested in any of those other environments.
I still think the overall advice is good. We depend on node in our Dockerfile like this:
FROM node:11
If we went further into the version, of course we'd be even better off probably, but there's a tiny point to make here. We don't build any docker images for deployments from dev to production. In fact the last time a docker build is run is for the development environment. After that it's just carrying the image from dev to qa to stg to prod, and we simply change the configuration file along the way.
This makes it so that we're not re-building again and possibly getting a different set of binaries that were not tested in any of those other environments.
>FROM node:11
Node follows semver and rarely has breaking changes within major versions, so this makes sense to do. The article recommends pinning a minor version of Python because it doesn't follow semver and sometimes has breaking changes within minor versions.
Node follows semver and rarely has breaking changes within major versions, so this makes sense to do. The article recommends pinning a minor version of Python because it doesn't follow semver and sometimes has breaking changes within minor versions.
> This will occasionally lead to problems, but they tend to be temporary and easily fixed. And in the long run, your system will age better.
This is the reason I love archlinux. Most of the time, updates are no big deal. Sometimes, they break the system. Rolling release distros force you to deal with each change as it happens, usually with a warning that breakage is about to happen, and a guide for how to quickly deal with it. Once the system is up and running, basic periodic maintenance will keep it that way. In the past, I've used arch machines continuously for 5+ years and they work great and stay up to date.
Compare to intermittent release distros like Ubuntu. Every time I need to update an ubuntu machine, I end up reinstalling from scratch and configuring from the ground up. There are too many things that need tweaking or simply break between when releases are 6-24 months apart. And I'm not convinced that locking down dependencies actually solve anything. Wait six months after an LTS release, when you need to get the latest version of some package. Suddenly, you are rummaging through random blog posts and repos trying to find the updated package. PPAs, Flatpacks, Snaps, oh my! Intermittent distros offload a lot of their responsibility onto users by pretending like package update problems don't exist.
This is the reason I love archlinux. Most of the time, updates are no big deal. Sometimes, they break the system. Rolling release distros force you to deal with each change as it happens, usually with a warning that breakage is about to happen, and a guide for how to quickly deal with it. Once the system is up and running, basic periodic maintenance will keep it that way. In the past, I've used arch machines continuously for 5+ years and they work great and stay up to date.
Compare to intermittent release distros like Ubuntu. Every time I need to update an ubuntu machine, I end up reinstalling from scratch and configuring from the ground up. There are too many things that need tweaking or simply break between when releases are 6-24 months apart. And I'm not convinced that locking down dependencies actually solve anything. Wait six months after an LTS release, when you need to get the latest version of some package. Suddenly, you are rummaging through random blog posts and repos trying to find the updated package. PPAs, Flatpacks, Snaps, oh my! Intermittent distros offload a lot of their responsibility onto users by pretending like package update problems don't exist.
Why do you configure from ground up? Don't you have your home directory in a separate partition? I keep it around and reuse it in case I have to upgrade the whole system. When you install most of your configuration into user space (except things like ssl and third party repos) it becomes easier to recover from a full system upgrade. Worked for me past 10 years.
You can always have both in parallel. The first one to test changes and deploy to production and the second one to try to upgrade your dependencies. Should all the test pass on the second one, you can then commit the new requirements.txt and other updated package versions.
You can then run the second continuously and warn when it fails and handle whatever happened manually, without having a broken prod.
You can then run the second continuously and warn when it fails and handle whatever happened manually, without having a broken prod.
we do that but it's hard to CI a whole operating system, some week ago we got bit by a weird imagemagick bug that was triggered by very specific tiffs that weren't in out test suite but that one of our clients used extensively for their product images.
annoying and wouldn't have happened if we were running pinned versions, that said getting stuck on old software would be worse. however nothing can ever test something like that fully, just too many combinations :(
annoying and wouldn't have happened if we were running pinned versions, that said getting stuck on old software would be worse. however nothing can ever test something like that fully, just too many combinations :(
Yup software will always break. The key is whether you can fix it quickly (fix meaning land commits AND get it in prod) and test for the issue in an automated way in the future.
I used to be strongly in favor of using fixed versions everywhere, but now I also have a mixed opinion. I think a reasonable compromise is to continually update and to promote images. That way you can start with `dev --> prod` when you're small and add more QC layers as things grow.
Something that's even more difficult is dealing with upstream changes. What do you do when `ubuntu:18:04` updates? It's easiest if the upstream is released with a predictable cadence (ex: every Wednesday), but none are AFAIK. That way you could plan a routine where you regularly promote an update through QC.
I'm not sure what to think about event driven release engineering like auto-builds (repo links) on Docker Hub. I think that might be an ok solution for development builds or rebuilds of base containers, but it seems to be abused. I bet there are maintainers of popular images on Docker Hub that are effectively triggering new deployments for downstream projects every time they publish a new image.
Something that's even more difficult is dealing with upstream changes. What do you do when `ubuntu:18:04` updates? It's easiest if the upstream is released with a predictable cadence (ex: every Wednesday), but none are AFAIK. That way you could plan a routine where you regularly promote an update through QC.
I'm not sure what to think about event driven release engineering like auto-builds (repo links) on Docker Hub. I think that might be an ok solution for development builds or rebuilds of base containers, but it seems to be abused. I bet there are maintainers of popular images on Docker Hub that are effectively triggering new deployments for downstream projects every time they publish a new image.
Something we have built for our stuff: There's a private repository and all applications run with minimum versions for their dependencies, so if there's a new available version, everything will update.
Beyond that, we have a daily job that runs the integration tests of all applications with the upstream repository, and if all integration tests end up green, the current set of upstream dependencies gets pushed into the private repository.
It is work to get good enough integration tests working, and at times it can be annoying if a flaky new test in the integration test suite breaks fetching new versions. But on the other hand, it's a pretty safe way to go fast. Usually, this will pull in daily updates and they get distributed over time.
And yes, sometimes it is necessary to set a maximum version constraint due to breaking changes in upstream dependencies. Our workflow requires the creation of a priority ticket when doing that.
Beyond that, we have a daily job that runs the integration tests of all applications with the upstream repository, and if all integration tests end up green, the current set of upstream dependencies gets pushed into the private repository.
It is work to get good enough integration tests working, and at times it can be annoying if a flaky new test in the integration test suite breaks fetching new versions. But on the other hand, it's a pretty safe way to go fast. Usually, this will pull in daily updates and they get distributed over time.
And yes, sometimes it is necessary to set a maximum version constraint due to breaking changes in upstream dependencies. Our workflow requires the creation of a priority ticket when doing that.
In your examples, you're comparing locking down a system and letting it age.. vs upgrading and fixing things that are broken.
The difference here is the amount of labor. In your first example, you propose no labor investment.. and in the 2nd, regular investment of labor. Of course that results in the 2nd system being better. If you invested the same labor required by your 2nd example in the 1st, you would likely have an equally usable and up to date system. Similarly, if you didn't invest any labor in the 2nd, you would have a broken unusable system (since the bugs would never get fixed).
Another way to think about this is that as systems age (bugs are found, exploits, etc), they create technical debt. You need to invest the time to address that debt, or you will suffer later down the road.. same as most tech debt.
The difference here is the amount of labor. In your first example, you propose no labor investment.. and in the 2nd, regular investment of labor. Of course that results in the 2nd system being better. If you invested the same labor required by your 2nd example in the 1st, you would likely have an equally usable and up to date system. Similarly, if you didn't invest any labor in the 2nd, you would have a broken unusable system (since the bugs would never get fixed).
Another way to think about this is that as systems age (bugs are found, exploits, etc), they create technical debt. You need to invest the time to address that debt, or you will suffer later down the road.. same as most tech debt.
My understanding about google is that they approach the dependencies as trying to build one statically linked binary and they tend to try to put all of the dependencies together in the same repo. (Mono-repo). For a large organization, I'm not convinced that's a sane way to go. Individual groups should have the primary responsibility for the modules that they produce.
What we need is:
1. Tools that will automatically upgrade for us and report back when there are failures.
2. Better automated tools on where our code is missing test coverage (automated upgrades should break our code when something changes)
3. Better CI/CD rejection support (Something breaks the build, force a revert of the code)
What we need is:
1. Tools that will automatically upgrade for us and report back when there are failures.
2. Better automated tools on where our code is missing test coverage (automated upgrades should break our code when something changes)
3. Better CI/CD rejection support (Something breaks the build, force a revert of the code)
There is a 3rd and IMO ideal approach. Instead of pinning to dependencies, you pin to an entire set of dependencies. You are guaranteed stability and that dependencies work together while you are pinned to one set. Non breaking changes like security fixes can still happen but major updates don’t. This is less reproducible than locking everything, but we get to reuse fixes among projects and backport them to the shared set. Updating your dependencies is just moving to a new package set. This approach is utilized by NixOS and Stack, but AFAICT no where else.
Until a simple bugfix breaks your system because you relied on the wrong behavior.
"but they tend to be temporary and easily fixed."
Only if your dependencies do the same, otherwise you have a new version of something and your dependency wants something old. Especially hard when older dependencies are no longer maintained.
For different environments and languages the problem might be bigger or smaller depending of the culture, strong/weak type coupling, cross compilation or runtime VMs.
This is the reason we've removed all Scala dependencies and now only depend on Java dependencies.
Only if your dependencies do the same, otherwise you have a new version of something and your dependency wants something old. Especially hard when older dependencies are no longer maintained.
For different environments and languages the problem might be bigger or smaller depending of the culture, strong/weak type coupling, cross compilation or runtime VMs.
This is the reason we've removed all Scala dependencies and now only depend on Java dependencies.
I don’t think your Dockerfile should be downloading your dependencies and building from scratch. Let your build pipeline pull them in, run tests, and pass them verbatim into your container.
Vendor your dependencies if you have to, or maintain a cache, but don’t make your Dockerfile redo all of that work.
Vendor your dependencies if you have to, or maintain a cache, but don’t make your Dockerfile redo all of that work.
We have a Dockerfile for builds, and a Dockerfile that consumes the built artifacts for deployment.
[deleted]
this assumes your build agent is running the same environment as the docker image. What happens when you’re running ubuntu and pull in packages that won’t work in alpine? (Or worse, if it’s windows/OSX and Linux)
If you have the need to go back to older versions of your code and patch them, you want to lock things down at least at the point of release.
> Google is an excellent example of a company that does this.
Chromium is still using Python 2 in its build system.
Chromium is still using Python 2 in its build system.
Python 2 is mature and stable, but not obsolete. It does still receive bugfixes as needed; the latest was version 2.7.16, released 2019-03-04. Maintenance will continue until 2020-01-01.
Sure, I still wouldn't call that "upgrade early, upgrade often".
Your last option us exactly what the author recommends -- pip-tools.
Good points, but it's amusing that his solution to #1 didn't lock down the patch version, nor the distro around it. I think that also makes a decent point for Nix[0], which solves #1-#3 by default (since choosing a particular version of Nixpkgs locks down the whole environment, and considers the build as a DAG of dependencies rather than a linear history). It also supports exporting Docker images, while preserving Nix's richer build caching.[1]
[0]: https://nixos.org/nix/
[1]: https://grahamc.com/blog/nix-and-layered-docker-images
[0]: https://nixos.org/nix/
[1]: https://grahamc.com/blog/nix-and-layered-docker-images
Good point, will go fix that. My soon-to-be-ready attempt at a production-ready template (https://pythonspeed.com/products/pythoncontainer/) covers the tradeoff between point releases vs. not-point-releases, and it does pin the OS.
And yes, Nix fixes some of the problems of building a production-ready image, but only a subset.
And yes, Nix fixes some of the problems of building a production-ready image, but only a subset.
Could you elaborate on the remaining problems with Nix for building Python images?
Not an expert on Nix, but it's not so much that Nix has problems (though I'm sure it does, my initial research suggested it's not quite there yet for Python packages) but that there other things you need to get right.
For example:
1. Signal handling (only one bit of https://hynek.me/articles/docker-signals/ is Dockerfile specific, the rest still applies.)
2. Configuring servers to run correctly in Docker environments (e.g. Gunicorn is broken by default, and some of these issues go beyond Gunicorn: https://pythonspeed.com/articles/gunicorn-in-docker/).
3. Not running as root, and dropping capabilities.
4. Building pinned dependencies for Python that you can feed to Nix.
5. Having processes (human and automated) in place to ensure security updates happen.
6. Knowing how to write shell scripts that aren't completely broken (either by not writing them at all and using better language, or by using bash strict mode: http://redsymbol.net/articles/unofficial-bash-strict-mode/)
etc.
For example:
1. Signal handling (only one bit of https://hynek.me/articles/docker-signals/ is Dockerfile specific, the rest still applies.)
2. Configuring servers to run correctly in Docker environments (e.g. Gunicorn is broken by default, and some of these issues go beyond Gunicorn: https://pythonspeed.com/articles/gunicorn-in-docker/).
3. Not running as root, and dropping capabilities.
4. Building pinned dependencies for Python that you can feed to Nix.
5. Having processes (human and automated) in place to ensure security updates happen.
6. Knowing how to write shell scripts that aren't completely broken (either by not writing them at all and using better language, or by using bash strict mode: http://redsymbol.net/articles/unofficial-bash-strict-mode/)
etc.
> though I'm sure it does, my initial research suggested it's not quite there yet for Python packages)
Can you expand on what's missing? I've successfully used nix to cross-compile a pretty substantial python application (+ native extensions, hence the cross compilation), for embedded purposes, and it pretty much worked out of the box. Adding extra dependencies was straightforwards.
I think you can use pypi2nix for pinned dependencies, and you can run it periodically for security updates.
Can you expand on what's missing? I've successfully used nix to cross-compile a pretty substantial python application (+ native extensions, hence the cross compilation), for embedded purposes, and it pretty much worked out of the box. Adding extra dependencies was straightforwards.
I think you can use pypi2nix for pinned dependencies, and you can run it periodically for security updates.
Like I said, it was very preliminary research... I reached the bit where pypi2nix did "nix-env -if https://github.com/garbas/pypi2nix/tarball/master" and wasn't super happy about the implications of "just use master" for production readiness.
If it works, though, that's great!
The more general point though is that in my experience no tool is perfect, or completely done, or without problems. E.g. the cited https://grahamc.com/blog/nix-and-layered-docker-images suggests you need to spend some time manually thinking about how to create layers for caching? Again, very preliminary research—I know people are using it, I'm just skeptical it's a magic bullet because nothing tends to be a magic bullet.
If it works, though, that's great!
The more general point though is that in my experience no tool is perfect, or completely done, or without problems. E.g. the cited https://grahamc.com/blog/nix-and-layered-docker-images suggests you need to spend some time manually thinking about how to create layers for caching? Again, very preliminary research—I know people are using it, I'm just skeptical it's a magic bullet because nothing tends to be a magic bullet.
> The more general point though is that in my experience no tool is perfect, or completely done, or without problems
I agree. I had to do a lot to cajole nix to cross-compile some python extensions.
However, I've done this before manually and using various build systems, and the advantage of Nix is that (1) equivalent builds are cached (reducing compile time), (2) the dependency graph is assured to be clean, (3) the entire state is pure (I can send my nix expressions to a hydra and be guaranteed a successful build), and (4) reuse -- once I modified the higher-level python combinators to build cross extensions, I can add new modules easily.
I agree. I had to do a lot to cajole nix to cross-compile some python extensions.
However, I've done this before manually and using various build systems, and the advantage of Nix is that (1) equivalent builds are cached (reducing compile time), (2) the dependency graph is assured to be clean, (3) the entire state is pure (I can send my nix expressions to a hydra and be guaranteed a successful build), and (4) reuse -- once I modified the higher-level python combinators to build cross extensions, I can add new modules easily.
Regarding layering, it used to be a completely manual process (just like with Dockerfiles), but the point of the blog post was that you can now use `buildLayeredImage` and correct layering will Just Happen.
Ah, neat, hadn't realized that was an actual Nix feature now. The post made it sound like this was just something they were writing for themselves.
Nix does a pretty poor job of being able to specify the exact version that you need of something.
It's not great at mix-and-match pinning, but if you pin a version of Nixpkgs then you will always build from the same environment (down to the libc). There's some boilerplate, sadly, but it's still fairly simple to understand.[0]
[0]: https://github.com/Etimo/photo-garden/blob/f597b95c0c488abad...
[0]: https://github.com/Etimo/photo-garden/blob/f597b95c0c488abad...
You don’t need pkgsBootstrap - you can use builtins.fetchGit instead of fetchFromGitHun
True, but that will do a real git clone (which is generally much slower than just downloading a static zip).
I feel like programmers often fail to grasp the distinction between example code and production-ready code.
On one project, we made some example code available, and people would copy and paste it into their project, change a few lines, and launch it into production. Then they were surprised it didn't handle this or that situation or deal with this or that detail.
Yeah, no shit it doesn't handle those things, it's example code! You're supposed to read this code along with the documentation so you can get a gist of what the API is like. It's a learning aid, not a software deliverable. Your real code is going to be more complicated. This simplified code exists to get you past the "how the hell does all this fit together at a high level?" hurdle faster. Once you're over that hurdle, you can start on the real implementation.
On one project, we made some example code available, and people would copy and paste it into their project, change a few lines, and launch it into production. Then they were surprised it didn't handle this or that situation or deal with this or that detail.
Yeah, no shit it doesn't handle those things, it's example code! You're supposed to read this code along with the documentation so you can get a gist of what the API is like. It's a learning aid, not a software deliverable. Your real code is going to be more complicated. This simplified code exists to get you past the "how the hell does all this fit together at a high level?" hurdle faster. Once you're over that hurdle, you can start on the real implementation.
Hopefully there is documentation; often there is not. It's borderline criminal that nearly all examples omit error-handling code, at least for the broad-strokes classes of errors that you, as the library author, know can and will occur.
I hated Java's checked exceptions, but it did let you have some idea what kind of errors were expected to be possible. Most of the time I'm excavating deep layers of source code, monitoring and logging to see what the errors might be, and tossing in catch-all handlers to keep the stack from unwinding too far if at all in doubt.
I hated Java's checked exceptions, but it did let you have some idea what kind of errors were expected to be possible. Most of the time I'm excavating deep layers of source code, monitoring and logging to see what the errors might be, and tossing in catch-all handlers to keep the stack from unwinding too far if at all in doubt.
Yeah, I agree with that. That is usually hard-won knowledge, too, so if it doesn't get transferred, that creates a lot of pain.
Unfortunately, a lot of people hate writing documentation and just want to get it over with as quickly as possible. (Ability to create working software doesn't necessarily correlate with ability or desire to share knowledge.)
Also, if you look at it in terms of incentives, it's tricky to reward people for making sure the documentation of gotchas is reasonably complete. By definition, these are things that people would probably not see until they're pointed out. So it's hard to tell if someone has really done it. (And when people are busy, things that aren't rewarded are unlikely to happen.)
Unfortunately, a lot of people hate writing documentation and just want to get it over with as quickly as possible. (Ability to create working software doesn't necessarily correlate with ability or desire to share knowledge.)
Also, if you look at it in terms of incentives, it's tricky to reward people for making sure the documentation of gotchas is reasonably complete. By definition, these are things that people would probably not see until they're pointed out. So it's hard to tell if someone has really done it. (And when people are busy, things that aren't rewarded are unlikely to happen.)
I wonder if people who complain about this have thought about what it would be like for beginners to only get to see production code. Sometimes the cow needs to be spherical.
This reminds me of that image of how to draw an owl. People forget that everyone starts somewhere and there is no magical jump from beginner level code to production code. Having good, well-explained examples of the beginner and intermediate were incredibly beneficial to me.
We solved this by explicitly making the code examples non-copy-pasteable at all, for example include strings like "<put your URL here>" and things like that, so they won't even work by accident.
I have spent a ridiculous time building this so I'll take the opportunity and share.
It builds python wheel packages in a build container and installs them in an app container. Works great for cpython and pypy. Also allows to build for alpine and works for most other languages. We started to build basically everything that way.
https://gist.github.com/tuco86/67d84dfb27268b1faf05d2dbb1acb...
Ok, I kind of cheated and added the user just now. Sue me. Also posted this in the other Docker related news. Sue me again.
https://gist.github.com/tuco86/67d84dfb27268b1faf05d2dbb1acb...
Ok, I kind of cheated and added the user just now. Sue me. Also posted this in the other Docker related news. Sue me again.
Looks like the last line needs to be updated to have the server listen on 8080 instead of 80. (I'm guessing this is left over from before you added the non-root user.)
Building the wheels in a build container and copying in the wheelhouse is a great idea. Thanks for posting this.
The problems described here are called 'release engineering.' Dockerfiles don't solve release engineering, they provide an abstraction for building a release candidate, putting it through a pipeline, and then tagging a successful build as your release. In other words, the end-container is the immutable object that should be deployed, not the Dockerfile.
If you are building the container in each stage of your CI/CD pipeline, you are doing it wrong.
If you are building the container in each stage of your CI/CD pipeline, you are doing it wrong.
> A broken Docker image can lead to production outages, and building best-practices images is a lot harder than it seems. So don’t just copy the first example you find on the web: do your research, and spend some time reading about best practices.
While I may not agree with absolutely everything in the article, this final point is paramount. Please don't blindly use technology because you managed to find a copypasta config that runs. Running != good.
While I may not agree with absolutely everything in the article, this final point is paramount. Please don't blindly use technology because you managed to find a copypasta config that runs. Running != good.
Definitely very true. I write more C++ than anything else, and the sheer number of online examples that start with
edit: lack of semicolons strikes again!
using namespace std;
using std::chrono::duration;
using std::cout;
edit: lack of semicolons strikes again!
That's... true in the specific example, becuase C++'s standard library is a huge, promiscuous mess of obvious-looking symbol names that are just asking for a collision with a user name.
But in general the notion that we want to isolate "everything" into a namespace is a net loss. Clear and simple abstractions have real value, and short undeclared names are an important part of being clear and simple.
The modern convention of separately importing every symbol you use gets really out of hand, when most of the time it really is appropriate that you just declare "my code is using this API" and expect things to work without having to link your program by hand with a giant shipping manifest of symbols at the top of your source files.
But in general the notion that we want to isolate "everything" into a namespace is a net loss. Clear and simple abstractions have real value, and short undeclared names are an important part of being clear and simple.
The modern convention of separately importing every symbol you use gets really out of hand, when most of the time it really is appropriate that you just declare "my code is using this API" and expect things to work without having to link your program by hand with a giant shipping manifest of symbols at the top of your source files.
I strongly disagree. In Python, you can find exactly where every identifier comes from (unless you use `from foo import *`, but that's frowned upon) and it makes it extremely easy to navigate code and documentation.
I've had to look at some C# web service code recently, and the amount of magic it relied on made it impossible for me to find what I was looking for, even using grep.
I've had to look at some C# web service code recently, and the amount of magic it relied on made it impossible for me to find what I was looking for, even using grep.
And I strongly repeat that well-understood and commonly-used APIs benefit (strongly, heh) from concision and idiom.
Seriously, when was the last time a C programmer needed to figure out where identifiers like "strlen" or "fread" come from? The problem you posit need not exist for big chunks of commonly used APIs, and the inability of modern programmers (trained, it seems, on C# web service code) to see that is frustrating.
Seriously, when was the last time a C programmer needed to figure out where identifiers like "strlen" or "fread" come from? The problem you posit need not exist for big chunks of commonly used APIs, and the inability of modern programmers (trained, it seems, on C# web service code) to see that is frustrating.
> Seriously, when was the last time a C programmer needed to figure out where identifiers like "strlen" or "fread" come from?
http://www.suodenjoki.dk/us/archive/2010/min-max.htm
http://www.suodenjoki.dk/us/archive/2010/min-max.htm
But isn't something like
from tk import *
Yes, and it does make code more difficult to read. I've looked at a fair amount of Python code, and it is very rare to see import * in the wild.
On the other hand, import * is nice to have in a repl.
On the other hand, import * is nice to have in a repl.
While I agree with the general point of using best practices in code samples, the Cpp Core Guidelines actually encourage[0] using
> sometimes a namespace is so fundamental and prevalent in a code base, that consistent qualification would be verbose and distracting.
I also work mainly in C++, and personally I prefer using it, together with -Wshadow to catch possible issues.
0: https://github.com/isocpp/CppCoreGuidelines/blob/master/CppC...
using namespace std;
> sometimes a namespace is so fundamental and prevalent in a code base, that consistent qualification would be verbose and distracting.
I also work mainly in C++, and personally I prefer using it, together with -Wshadow to catch possible issues.
0: https://github.com/isocpp/CppCoreGuidelines/blob/master/CppC...
Problems arise when you upgrade your compiler and a new symbol was added to std::
[deleted]
For reproducible builds, `python:3.7` isn't specific enough. python:3.7.3-alpine3.9 is more specific, for example. There aren't supposed to be breaking changes in the bugfix releases, but they'll happen anyway.
And `python:3.7@sha256:35ff9f44818f8850f1d318aa69c2e7ba61d85e3b93283078c10e56e7d864c183` is even better.
Ran into this recently. Docker container was running into issues until I changed "python:3.7-alpine" to "python:3.7.3-alpine3.9". It was because a package I was relying on from "apk add" changed between Alpine versions.
I could probably safely make it "python:3.7-alpine3.9" (instead of pinning to Python 3.7.3), since the issue was the Alpine version, but at this point I'm starting to really buy into the whole reproducible build thing.
I could probably safely make it "python:3.7-alpine3.9" (instead of pinning to Python 3.7.3), since the issue was the Alpine version, but at this point I'm starting to really buy into the whole reproducible build thing.
overfitting here?
This Dockerfile linter would warn you about multiple of these problems and more:
https://github.com/hadolint/hadolint
I am actually preparing my own article titled "Docker antipatterns" that will include many more points like this.
"Broken" means "does not work". These examples do work. I'm annoyed by this incongruity. "Not sustainable"/"Not Forward Compatible", etc. would have been preferable.
This is an advertisement disguised as a technical post on container security.
Then I wish all advertising were like this. It's very informative and provides a solution rather than just pointing out the problem. I hope this page ends up ranking highly in search results because there are a lot of incomplete Dockerfiles employing questionable practices that sit at the top of search results and proliferate due to cargo culting.
It's a technical post on a company's blog. (which contains links to the company's products, but I didn't feel advertised to) Like thousands that have been posted on HN over the years.
its an ad:
https://pythonspeed.com/products/pythoncontainer/
Production-Ready Python Containers is getting closer to release, but it isn’t quite ready. So sign up below to get notified when the template is available for purchase.
I feel like the better solution to #4 is setting up UID namespacing for docker instead of (just) creating random users within the container. Even if you create a user, it's still going to run as whatever UID it has within the container (probably 1000 is most likely your UID if you're the only one using said system)
Nice eBomb. Describes the problem, offers value, does it politely so it is HN (and other places) friendly, then "there are still problems..." and then the paid solution.
I've seen docker images that do a git clone from the master head to get the source, so basically if their Github account gets hacked. You're f'd.
I've seen docker images that do a git clone from the master head to get the source, so basically if their Github account gets hacked. You're f'd.
It seems like the folks making docker files could stand to learn package management with a mature package system before making docker files.
I wonder how many use docker after they learn ?
I wonder how many use docker after they learn ?
why is running as root in the docker a problem? Isn't the whole point of containers to isolate the container? So what is the difference in a container running root or a user? If there is, wouldn't that be more of a docker bug?
The page the article is linking to http://canihaznonprivilegedcontainers.info is mixing up running as root with running docker with --privileged. Latter one renders Docker security to zero, but is barely required.
I’m not saying “go run your all your Docker images as root”, but this is clearly FUD.
Non-privileged containers are still having "root", just with way fewer capabilities (See Docker [0] docs).
I’m not an expert, but I guess depending what you are doing the most problematic capability might be AUDIT_WRITE, because it is not namespaced and could be abused for DOSing syslog. But you might require it for things like sshd, sudo, adduser, passwd, …
Depending on how you are holding it the NET_BIND_SERVICE and NET_RAW can be an issue (depends on how your docker network looks like), but the others appear not to be a security issue per-se.
This page [1] gives a good overview on default capabilities, though they are also confusing to the reader with "better disable this".
I've created an issue, not sure if I have resources to fix their page though. [2]
[0]: https://docs.docker.com/engine/reference/run/#runtime-privil...
[1]: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/secure-your-containers-one-we...
[2]: https://github.com/mhausenblas/canihaznonprivilegedcontainer...
I’m not saying “go run your all your Docker images as root”, but this is clearly FUD.
Non-privileged containers are still having "root", just with way fewer capabilities (See Docker [0] docs).
I’m not an expert, but I guess depending what you are doing the most problematic capability might be AUDIT_WRITE, because it is not namespaced and could be abused for DOSing syslog. But you might require it for things like sshd, sudo, adduser, passwd, …
Depending on how you are holding it the NET_BIND_SERVICE and NET_RAW can be an issue (depends on how your docker network looks like), but the others appear not to be a security issue per-se.
This page [1] gives a good overview on default capabilities, though they are also confusing to the reader with "better disable this".
I've created an issue, not sure if I have resources to fix their page though. [2]
[0]: https://docs.docker.com/engine/reference/run/#runtime-privil...
[1]: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/secure-your-containers-one-we...
[2]: https://github.com/mhausenblas/canihaznonprivilegedcontainer...
Non-privileged containers running as root are a definite security risk.
Real world example: CVE from February 2019 which allowed escalation to root on host. It's preventable by (among other things) "a low privileged user inside the container".
See https://blog.dragonsector.pl/2019/02/cve-2019-5736-escape-fr...
Real world example: CVE from February 2019 which allowed escalation to root on host. It's preventable by (among other things) "a low privileged user inside the container".
See https://blog.dragonsector.pl/2019/02/cve-2019-5736-escape-fr...
(Same discussion as on lobste.rs)
Thank you for this link, I've only seen the initial CVE announcement.
> This is not FUD [...]
The site is practicing FUD, it accomplishes communicating a message in an untruthful fashion by mixing two different things into one. (Just check out their stack overflow links, it is not clear if they are talking about root or `--privileged`)
People are confused wether `docker root == host system root` and this site doesn't help them to get a better understanding whether or not it is the case. (It isn't) Plus it misses what its main goal should be, running a Secure Docker environment.
You are talking about a previous exploit, not a permanent issue. Keeping your host system up to date and additional hardenings is always going to be necessary in exposed environments.
> Use Docker containers with SELinux enabled (--selinux-enabled). This prevents processes inside the container from overwriting the host docker-runc binary.
Authors recommendation is also using SELinux, this also helped with outer Docker/Kernel related vulnerabilities in the past. Why isn't the page even mentioning this?
---
I think it is important to give a proper outlook on how problematic things are and not to confuse people with super high expectations. You often end up running containers that you have only little control about.
1. Avoiding root in self-built containers is definitively the way to go, since it reduces (unnecessary) attack surface, but
Just googled and this is rather more helpful:
- https://dev.to/petermbenjamin/docker-security-best-practices...
- https://blog.aquasec.com/docker-security-best-practices
- https://sysdig.com/blog/7-docker-security-vulnerabilities/
- https://github.com/docker/docker-bench-security
Thank you for this link, I've only seen the initial CVE announcement.
> This is not FUD [...]
The site is practicing FUD, it accomplishes communicating a message in an untruthful fashion by mixing two different things into one. (Just check out their stack overflow links, it is not clear if they are talking about root or `--privileged`)
People are confused wether `docker root == host system root` and this site doesn't help them to get a better understanding whether or not it is the case. (It isn't) Plus it misses what its main goal should be, running a Secure Docker environment.
You are talking about a previous exploit, not a permanent issue. Keeping your host system up to date and additional hardenings is always going to be necessary in exposed environments.
> Use Docker containers with SELinux enabled (--selinux-enabled). This prevents processes inside the container from overwriting the host docker-runc binary.
Authors recommendation is also using SELinux, this also helped with outer Docker/Kernel related vulnerabilities in the past. Why isn't the page even mentioning this?
---
I think it is important to give a proper outlook on how problematic things are and not to confuse people with super high expectations. You often end up running containers that you have only little control about.
1. Avoiding root in self-built containers is definitively the way to go, since it reduces (unnecessary) attack surface, but
1. It requires some glue code
2. Might slow down your builds (`Dockerfile` multistage `cp --from=0 /app /app` loses permissions, requires chown afterwards)
2. some capabilities to test things (sshd for testing ansible scripts for example)
3. can you use kaniko for building Docker images from within Docker without root?
1. Use SELinux
2. Use monitoring
3. Drop capabilities that aren't necessary (NET_BIND_SERVICE, NET_RAW, ...)
4. Use docker network separation
5. Frequent system updates
Just googled and this is rather more helpful:
- https://dev.to/petermbenjamin/docker-security-best-practices...
- https://blog.aquasec.com/docker-security-best-practices
- https://sysdig.com/blog/7-docker-security-vulnerabilities/
- https://github.com/docker/docker-bench-security
A root user inside the container can cause more havoc inside the container. One issue is that you might have sensitive data accessible from within inside the container. A hacker replacing system binaries inside the container might also affect how your application inside the container runs, a read-only user makes this much more difficult.
You can't assume all containers have same access and trust-level as a user because at some point you also have to process your requests and store your data - and that processing is most likely also be done in another container (even if your actual data-volume is mounted outside the container). For such containers same security measures as for a physicial machine applies.
You can't assume all containers have same access and trust-level as a user because at some point you also have to process your requests and store your data - and that processing is most likely also be done in another container (even if your actual data-volume is mounted outside the container). For such containers same security measures as for a physicial machine applies.
If you are in a UID namespace, it likely is not a big deal. But if you were ever to have something escape from a container, it would be a much bigger problem if it was uid 0 in the root namespace.
I do not intend to play down the importance of using docker carefully.
But the reproducible build aspect of the critic seems unnecessary to me: Isn't that more a concern of the packaging system? (no python scripter)
If your packaging systems supports version selection/locking, then use your packaging system right. If your packaging system cannot pin a version, how should docker solve this?
But the reproducible build aspect of the critic seems unnecessary to me: Isn't that more a concern of the packaging system? (no python scripter)
If your packaging systems supports version selection/locking, then use your packaging system right. If your packaging system cannot pin a version, how should docker solve this?
Docker can't escape all the blame here - its layer caching mechanism is IMHO flawed. It's fine to say that a packaging system should offer reproducibility but Docker's layer caching design assumes that every RUN command produces reproducible results.
You could of course blame users for not making sure that all the commands they use in their Dockerfiles are actually reproducible but many/most examples even in the official documention are clearly not reproducible.
Therefore you end up with what is in my opinion a semi-broken system - building images seems to be reproducible (and fast) until you lose your layer cache or you spin up a new CI build agent or a new dev joins the team and tries to build the same image.
Not that I can think of an clean and performant solution to this problem.
You could of course blame users for not making sure that all the commands they use in their Dockerfiles are actually reproducible but many/most examples even in the official documention are clearly not reproducible.
Therefore you end up with what is in my opinion a semi-broken system - building images seems to be reproducible (and fast) until you lose your layer cache or you spin up a new CI build agent or a new dev joins the team and tries to build the same image.
Not that I can think of an clean and performant solution to this problem.
We have been working on a simplified container build system which does away with layers altogether. [1]
The use of layers at the build stage adds a lot of needless complexity with very little benefits and users really need to step back and question the value they are getting from the use of layers. [2]
Words like 'immutability', 'declarative' and 'reproduciblity' are often used in ways that can lead to user misunderstanding and can be accomplished with simpler workflows. For instance immutability, reuse, composition do not require layers. There needs to be a lot more technical scrutiny to avoid confusion.
[1] https://www.flockport.com/docs/containers#builds
[2] https://www.flockport.com/guides/say-yes-to-containers.html
The use of layers at the build stage adds a lot of needless complexity with very little benefits and users really need to step back and question the value they are getting from the use of layers. [2]
Words like 'immutability', 'declarative' and 'reproduciblity' are often used in ways that can lead to user misunderstanding and can be accomplished with simpler workflows. For instance immutability, reuse, composition do not require layers. There needs to be a lot more technical scrutiny to avoid confusion.
[1] https://www.flockport.com/docs/containers#builds
[2] https://www.flockport.com/guides/say-yes-to-containers.html
This is a great point -- you could potentially solve this using --cache-from which makes the layer cache explicit, and not something that varies between dev / CI / new devs.
This issue isn't Docker, Docker itself obviously can't deal with this. The issue is the examples and tutorial people provide on Docker packaging often don't talk about the requirements (pun intended) for reproducible builds at all.
Or they don't talk about need to run as not-root.
Or they suggest base images that are often broken in subtle ways (Alpine Linux).
Or they talk about multi-stage builds for small images, and neglect to explain that you've just destroyed your caching (this is fixable, but you need to know to expect it and how to fix it.)
Etc.
Or they don't talk about need to run as not-root.
Or they suggest base images that are often broken in subtle ways (Alpine Linux).
Or they talk about multi-stage builds for small images, and neglect to explain that you've just destroyed your caching (this is fixable, but you need to know to expect it and how to fix it.)
Etc.
The caching part is (mostly) generally fixable by making sure to always add your source code in two stages - dependency files first, then resolve dependencies, and the rest of the source code later.
Rarely is this done though. And definitely alpine+musl doesn't always do what you might expect, and it's often language dependent as to whether or not you'll encounter something strange (not to mention you forfeiting bash)
Rarely is this done though. And definitely alpine+musl doesn't always do what you might expect, and it's often language dependent as to whether or not you'll encounter something strange (not to mention you forfeiting bash)
>If your packaging systems supports version selection/locking, then use your packaging system right.
That's exactly what the article is recommending in point 2. The original Dockerfile author was using pip in a way that's only intended for in development. Having a requirements.txt file is the correct way to use pip when distributing a project.
That's exactly what the article is recommending in point 2. The original Dockerfile author was using pip in a way that's only intended for in development. Having a requirements.txt file is the correct way to use pip when distributing a project.
Most Python packaging systems don't include the Python VM itself, though they can specify which version is required. In the post, Docker is used to provide a specific version of the Python VM.
I would move the requirements.txt and pip install to after the user creation seeing as you'll invalidate that cache if your requirements change.
Best part is that was brought up as an issue in the article only to do the same thing in an example
Best part is that was brought up as an issue in the article only to do the same thing in an example
Running pip with sudo doesn't seem a great idea either...
(1) and (2) aren't really broken, IMHO. For most cases always using the most up to date version is better than having 100% reproducible builds. After all, you have the docker image that you can distribute if you really need to. Better to pick up security and performance patches as they become available. If those updates break something then you can make the decision to fix on a known good version.
If you always pin, you have history to tell you which versions were good. If you mostly don't, you have to start disassembling a bunch of old images just to figure out what they were built from.
The final example in the article is broken. Python interpreter as PID 1 can't handle linux signals.
This is why I have a caveat at the top of the article as well as right after the last example. This particular issue is fixable with `docker run --init`, so not strictly necessary to fix in images.
It can if you install the appropriate signal handlers, which, if you don't fork, is quite easy. While for a real-world app you're probably right, the article's example is not fleshed out sufficiently to tell one way or another.
not everyone is on a upgrade-daily churn, and should not have to be ! if you are externally exposed, sure, because security .. but really, isn't there some room here for different life cycles ?
In general, in Go, Java, and Python I've resorted to copying in the Gopkg files, pom.xml, and requirements.txt, and then running the requisite dependency installer for the language (dep, pip, mvn, etc...) and then just copying in the rest of the repo, relying on the .dockeringore with a default-ignore for everything and specifying the individual files/directories you may want to add, and in some cases a rootfs folder when necessary.
This seems to be the happy medium for me. I don't have very strong opinions on requirements.txt always being the pinned output from a pip freeze, and it seems like pipenv may actually die in a few years, and poetry will evolve to take the mantle, but I do lots of things with conda anyway.
This seems to be the happy medium for me. I don't have very strong opinions on requirements.txt always being the pinned output from a pip freeze, and it seems like pipenv may actually die in a few years, and poetry will evolve to take the mantle, but I do lots of things with conda anyway.
Isn't it ironic that he isn't pining down the docker version?
Isn't the example on how to make the referenced file better another contribution to the pool of "broken by default" images?
Either that or I don't get the argument.
Not locking it to a specific version is better for security updates. Do you want it to run stable with vulnerabilities or to run secure and broken?
> Not locking it to a specific version is better for security updates.
The idea is that you should take responsibility for your containers and verify fixes and test your application.
> Do you want it to run stable with vulnerabilities or to run secure and broken?
If these are your two choices, you have a staffing or a workflow problem.
The idea is that you should take responsibility for your containers and verify fixes and test your application.
> Do you want it to run stable with vulnerabilities or to run secure and broken?
If these are your two choices, you have a staffing or a workflow problem.
Probably going to want to use tagged docker repos so that updating certain packages, no matter the language, don't suddenly break your images
One more broken part is
CMD [ "python", "./yourscript.py" ]
Why/what do you think this breaks / what does wrapping it in a shell do for you?
E.g., for me, the following Dockerfile:
E.g., for me, the following Dockerfile:
FROM python:3
RUN pip3 install ipdb
COPY test.py /test.py
CMD ["python", "test.py"]
import ipdb; ipdb.set_trace()
print('Hello, World.')
» docker run -ti --rm 52e98c118dc3
> /test.py(2)<module>()
1 import ipdb; ipdb.set_trace()
----> 2 print('Hello, World.')
ipdb> p globals()
{'__name__': '__main__', '__doc__': None, '__package__': None, '__loader__': <_frozen_importlib_external.SourceFileLoader object at 0x7f809a8c8278>, '__spec__': None, '__annotations__': {}, '__builtins__': <module 'builtins' (built-in)>, '__file__': 'test.py', '__cached__': None, 'ipdb': <module 'ipdb' from '/usr/local/lib/python3.7/site-packages/ipdb/__init__.py'>}
ipdb> ^D
Exiting Debugger.
»Very good clues!
There are two basic approaches to take with dependency management.
The first version is to lock down every dependency as tightly as you can to avoid accidentally breaking something. Which inevitably leads down the road to everything being locked to something archaic that can't be upgraded easily, and is incompatible with everything else. But with no idea what will break, or how to upgrade. I currently work at a company that went down that path and is now suffering for it.
The second version is upgrade early, upgrade often. This will occasionally lead to problems, but they tend to be temporary and easily fixed. And in the long run, your system will age better. Google is an excellent example of a company that does this.
The post assumes that the first version should be your model. But having seen both up close and personal, my sympathies actually lie with the second.
This is not to say that I'm against reproducible builds. I'm not. But if you want to lock down version numbers for a specific release, have an automated tool supply the right ones for you. And make it trivial to upgrade early, and upgrade often.