Ask HN: Advice for husband struggling with 2-career marriage?
17 comments
Couples therapy.
There's no real good way to really address this over the internet.
You might end up shopping around a few different therapists as different relationships tend to IMO respond better to different therapists.
Don't worry about irrational or rational feelings, it is how you feel, that's ok. Same goes for her feelings.
There's no real good way to really address this over the internet.
You might end up shopping around a few different therapists as different relationships tend to IMO respond better to different therapists.
Don't worry about irrational or rational feelings, it is how you feel, that's ok. Same goes for her feelings.
> I'm trying to figure out if my feelings are rational or irrational.
Your feelings are your feelings, rationality doesn't not come into play. Your emotions do no define you unless you have allowed them control over you actions. Processing and reconciling them with your identity is the only way to the other side.
> When we started dating, my side gigs got in the way of our dating lifestyle
You aren't dating your wife anymore. I have no idea how much time has passed, but your decision to take on less side work then, should have no bearing on how much time your wife dedicates to her career now.
> She tells me I'm unsupportive of her because I'm jealous of her success
If the words, 'You are jealous of my success' came out of her mouth, I would love to know what action or statement it was in response to. Are you supportive? Are there things that she wants from you that you are willing and able to do? Are there things you are not prepared to do? Discuss with her honestly about your needs and short comings; with no expectations except that she will hear you say the words.
> I just feel like I'm fighting for some respect for myself
Do you respect yourself? Long term relationships are work and can cause our identity to be deeply tied to another. Reconnecting and accepting yourself is difficult but is require for true lasting self respect. It cannot be found in anyone else.
> I really do want my wife to be successful and happy, but
Is your wife happy? Is she in pain, over worked, lonely? Camaraderie around a shared pain or difficulty can be reconciling.
> I also don't want to be required to live with this feeling of sacrifice.
You are married with children, sacrifice is the life you signed up for. It is the blood, sweat and tears of raising the next generation, this is life. That could be a bad choice for you personally, but realizing and coming to terms with the facts of your situation is the first step to finding out how to make it better.
Your feelings are your feelings, rationality doesn't not come into play. Your emotions do no define you unless you have allowed them control over you actions. Processing and reconciling them with your identity is the only way to the other side.
> When we started dating, my side gigs got in the way of our dating lifestyle
You aren't dating your wife anymore. I have no idea how much time has passed, but your decision to take on less side work then, should have no bearing on how much time your wife dedicates to her career now.
> She tells me I'm unsupportive of her because I'm jealous of her success
If the words, 'You are jealous of my success' came out of her mouth, I would love to know what action or statement it was in response to. Are you supportive? Are there things that she wants from you that you are willing and able to do? Are there things you are not prepared to do? Discuss with her honestly about your needs and short comings; with no expectations except that she will hear you say the words.
> I just feel like I'm fighting for some respect for myself
Do you respect yourself? Long term relationships are work and can cause our identity to be deeply tied to another. Reconnecting and accepting yourself is difficult but is require for true lasting self respect. It cannot be found in anyone else.
> I really do want my wife to be successful and happy, but
Is your wife happy? Is she in pain, over worked, lonely? Camaraderie around a shared pain or difficulty can be reconciling.
> I also don't want to be required to live with this feeling of sacrifice.
You are married with children, sacrifice is the life you signed up for. It is the blood, sweat and tears of raising the next generation, this is life. That could be a bad choice for you personally, but realizing and coming to terms with the facts of your situation is the first step to finding out how to make it better.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
The comment about jealousy of her career was part of a recent spat that came about because I was annoyed at a situation related to her work travel. She was going to be away for just a day and a half, but then asked to take the morning before to exercise because she had been too busy at work the previous day and she uses exercise as her escape, so she "needs" it. In my mind, that is clearly saying, "my job was more important than exercise [OK, no problem], and now my exercise is more important than my family." On the surface, that's not a terrible statement, but then my mind says, "so that implies your job is more important than your family," which to me is not OK. Ultimately, it's not a big deal, she can go exercise in the morning, I can handle the kids and get them off to school, and me to work. But this situation really makes me angry about her priorities. As soon as I voice that, it's a fight and she actually turns it into an argument about feminism and says I'm trying to make a power play and keep her down. It's actually bizarre to me, to the point that I can't tell if I'm crazy because of the way she is reacting -- have I really said something to bring on a fight about feminism?
> Do you respect yourself?
That's a great question, and I always thought I did, but maybe not like I should. I'm healthy, I have a good job (by most standards, extremely good), but am I living up to my full potential? Probably not, and maybe that is disappointing.
> Is your wife happy?
Right now, I'd say definitely not. She is overworked, and outside of work she is going through a lot with a crazy family situation right now. She recently told me she cried twice in her office one day, but then refused to talk to me about it because "it's too stressful to talk about." That was another issue that made me feel like I'm on the outside and her job is on the inside.
> sacrifice is the life you signed up for
Yes, I know this. The thing I'm having a hard time coming to terms with is the disparate sacrifice between the two of us.
> realizing and coming to terms with the facts of your situation
I think this is the biggest thing I need to get out of this. It actually felt like a weight was immediately lifted when I was able to realize and vocalize this feeling that I might subconsciously be trying to sabotage her job because I see it as a higher priority in our relationship than me. I'm now wondering if I can embrace this role as the family catch-all that picks up responsibilities she's unable to share instead of feeling resentful about it. I'm hoping as long as I can recognize it as what it is, I'll be OK with it in the long run. But as I mentioned before, the thought of a slippery slope of sacrifice scares me. It's really not type of person I've ever been.
The comment about jealousy of her career was part of a recent spat that came about because I was annoyed at a situation related to her work travel. She was going to be away for just a day and a half, but then asked to take the morning before to exercise because she had been too busy at work the previous day and she uses exercise as her escape, so she "needs" it. In my mind, that is clearly saying, "my job was more important than exercise [OK, no problem], and now my exercise is more important than my family." On the surface, that's not a terrible statement, but then my mind says, "so that implies your job is more important than your family," which to me is not OK. Ultimately, it's not a big deal, she can go exercise in the morning, I can handle the kids and get them off to school, and me to work. But this situation really makes me angry about her priorities. As soon as I voice that, it's a fight and she actually turns it into an argument about feminism and says I'm trying to make a power play and keep her down. It's actually bizarre to me, to the point that I can't tell if I'm crazy because of the way she is reacting -- have I really said something to bring on a fight about feminism?
> Do you respect yourself?
That's a great question, and I always thought I did, but maybe not like I should. I'm healthy, I have a good job (by most standards, extremely good), but am I living up to my full potential? Probably not, and maybe that is disappointing.
> Is your wife happy?
Right now, I'd say definitely not. She is overworked, and outside of work she is going through a lot with a crazy family situation right now. She recently told me she cried twice in her office one day, but then refused to talk to me about it because "it's too stressful to talk about." That was another issue that made me feel like I'm on the outside and her job is on the inside.
> sacrifice is the life you signed up for
Yes, I know this. The thing I'm having a hard time coming to terms with is the disparate sacrifice between the two of us.
> realizing and coming to terms with the facts of your situation
I think this is the biggest thing I need to get out of this. It actually felt like a weight was immediately lifted when I was able to realize and vocalize this feeling that I might subconsciously be trying to sabotage her job because I see it as a higher priority in our relationship than me. I'm now wondering if I can embrace this role as the family catch-all that picks up responsibilities she's unable to share instead of feeling resentful about it. I'm hoping as long as I can recognize it as what it is, I'll be OK with it in the long run. But as I mentioned before, the thought of a slippery slope of sacrifice scares me. It's really not type of person I've ever been.
> Right now, I'd say definitely not. She is overworked, and outside of work she is going through a lot with a crazy family situation right now. She recently told me she cried twice in her office one day, but then refused to talk to me about it because "it's too stressful to talk about." That was another issue that made me feel like I'm on the outside and her job is on the inside.
It looks like your wife is in a crisis now. It would only make sense for you to be supportive, by picking up a disproportionate part of chores or whatever, so that she can get her back on her feet. However, if this situation persists for a long time, I'd say you two should have a talk about her being in constant crisis mode (with stress, crying etc.) being bad for both of you, and what can you do to change it.
It looks like your wife is in a crisis now. It would only make sense for you to be supportive, by picking up a disproportionate part of chores or whatever, so that she can get her back on her feet. However, if this situation persists for a long time, I'd say you two should have a talk about her being in constant crisis mode (with stress, crying etc.) being bad for both of you, and what can you do to change it.
Good insight, thanks. I do notice some bouncing from crisis to crisis with her. Not that all of them are manufactured -- some are very real and unavoidable. However, she has a tendency to fall into the role of victim, where these things in her life happen to her, and she's just trying to survive. I would LOVE to figure out how to help her out of that mentality and take ownership of all aspects of her life.
A high demand job, with travel. She has all my empathy. You seem like a decent and grounded person. I hope you succeed in improving your relationship.
> have I really said something to bring on a fight about feminism?
She may feel that the help she is requesting of you, workout time in this case, would be freely given if the gender roles were reversed. I think this situation always leads to resentment regardless of gender.
It may help to reframe the situation as you both pulling together 'for the family.' She maybe physically leaving and that is a burden, but it is done for a purpose. Reaffirm your common goals and what you each need to be successful. Remember that one relationship is unlikely to be completely satisfying and you may need a parent's meetup, D&D group or tennis buddy.
Counseling is always an option.
> But as I mentioned before, the thought of a slippery slope of sacrifice scares me.
It is scary and exactly the reason you do need to express yourself and your needs. You need you, your family needs you.
> have I really said something to bring on a fight about feminism?
She may feel that the help she is requesting of you, workout time in this case, would be freely given if the gender roles were reversed. I think this situation always leads to resentment regardless of gender.
It may help to reframe the situation as you both pulling together 'for the family.' She maybe physically leaving and that is a burden, but it is done for a purpose. Reaffirm your common goals and what you each need to be successful. Remember that one relationship is unlikely to be completely satisfying and you may need a parent's meetup, D&D group or tennis buddy.
Counseling is always an option.
> But as I mentioned before, the thought of a slippery slope of sacrifice scares me.
It is scary and exactly the reason you do need to express yourself and your needs. You need you, your family needs you.
Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.
1. I strongly suggest therapists — one for your and one for you and your spouse. You may want someone more oriented towards coaching at the start. Note that a couples therapist is an advocate for the couple, while an individual therapist is for you. This will matter if your spouse might have some sort of trauma, personality disorder, etc.
2. Your wife seems to be in a place where she is asking herself a lot of challenging questions. You seem to know this cognitively, but you don’t seem to be accepting it emotionally. Given the situation you described in your post and some of the replies, I’m not surprised her behavior is erratic. That doesn’t make it “right”, but it does mean that one shouldn’t really be surprised.
3. Note that when she uses low blows like playing the feminist card (assuming that it’s an exaggeration), thats a sign of desperation and confusion on her side. Simply put, if you really are against her success, she should just leave — I imagine that’s not really what she wants.
4. I’m not sure where you are located, but dual incomes with kids to me suggests that some of that extra income should go into help around the house. This can be via a nanny, a house cleaner, someone to drive the kids around, etc. The amount you choose to spend has a potentially wide range, but the utility can be undeniably helpful. In many families this is done by extended family members, but if you don’t have that option, paying money works. I see lots of dual-income couples not near their families try to be superheroes and maintain a high-paced lifestyle all by themselves — that’s insane.
Best of luck!
2. Your wife seems to be in a place where she is asking herself a lot of challenging questions. You seem to know this cognitively, but you don’t seem to be accepting it emotionally. Given the situation you described in your post and some of the replies, I’m not surprised her behavior is erratic. That doesn’t make it “right”, but it does mean that one shouldn’t really be surprised.
3. Note that when she uses low blows like playing the feminist card (assuming that it’s an exaggeration), thats a sign of desperation and confusion on her side. Simply put, if you really are against her success, she should just leave — I imagine that’s not really what she wants.
4. I’m not sure where you are located, but dual incomes with kids to me suggests that some of that extra income should go into help around the house. This can be via a nanny, a house cleaner, someone to drive the kids around, etc. The amount you choose to spend has a potentially wide range, but the utility can be undeniably helpful. In many families this is done by extended family members, but if you don’t have that option, paying money works. I see lots of dual-income couples not near their families try to be superheroes and maintain a high-paced lifestyle all by themselves — that’s insane.
Best of luck!
Thanks for your insight, good things to think about.
Don't discount your own feelings. They are real, and are forever with you. Whether you can come to terms with the situation or push for a compromise is something that you will have to answer for yourself. I think most healthy relationships are built on communication/understanding/compromise, so you should be able to express issues and needs and reach an equitable arrangement.
Lots of great advice here already (especially #1 and #4 from @csa), so I'll only add two things:
1. A good exercise for you and your wife: take turns expressing how you each feel and why you feel that way to one another. Then, take turns describing the other person's feelings and frustrations back to each other. Sometimes the biggest source of frustration comes from feeling unheard. Doing this forces you to actually listen (vs. waiting for your turn to talk) and helps demonstrate that you're at least hearing and understanding where the other person is coming from.
2. After talking to your wife, you may find out that there really is an unfair imbalance right now. If so, it's important to get a sense of whether this imbalance is short- or long-term. Most couples where both partners work take turns prioritizing each other's career. It sounds like you just need to find out if what's happening right now is forever or not, and maybe get a little more recognition from her for how much you're stepping up right now.
1. A good exercise for you and your wife: take turns expressing how you each feel and why you feel that way to one another. Then, take turns describing the other person's feelings and frustrations back to each other. Sometimes the biggest source of frustration comes from feeling unheard. Doing this forces you to actually listen (vs. waiting for your turn to talk) and helps demonstrate that you're at least hearing and understanding where the other person is coming from.
2. After talking to your wife, you may find out that there really is an unfair imbalance right now. If so, it's important to get a sense of whether this imbalance is short- or long-term. Most couples where both partners work take turns prioritizing each other's career. It sounds like you just need to find out if what's happening right now is forever or not, and maybe get a little more recognition from her for how much you're stepping up right now.
Thanks, it's so easy to forget that we'll never understand each other without listening to each other.
Re: 2, I am beginning to embrace my role as it is now, and I feel so much better about it already. Whether it's short- or long-term, I can take pride in my ability to enable her to be the best mom and wife she can be.
Re: 2, I am beginning to embrace my role as it is now, and I feel so much better about it already. Whether it's short- or long-term, I can take pride in my ability to enable her to be the best mom and wife she can be.
Well, think of it this way: why should you necessarily be the one resentful that she’s pursuing a career rather than homemaking full time? Why shouldn’t she be the one resentful that you’re pursuing a career rather than being a full time homemaker?
This is a really important moment in your life. You're on the right track asking questions about it. I do have some actionable steps you can take.
1. Please, please read the book "The Five Love Languages". Don't say another word to her until you have this short book in your head. It will explain, right away, the things you need from your wife to feel loved and happy with her. You have noticed resentment building in you (its good that you're self aware and willing to talk about it). Being resentful can lead to you being really aggressive in an argument which will drive her even more into personal goals and then your marriage is over. Remember, she is still the one you fell in love with. Right now, she is high on success.
2. When a person is selfish, it is extremely hard to take away the euphoria they are feeling. For the purposes of this online discussion, it maybe you who are selfish. However, because you're the one asking about it, know that you will be the one to start the both of you down the right path. You will be the one who understands what is really going on. That is a big job, and you'll have to commit yourself to making the marriage last and work in a better way.
3. People are selfish. You, your wife, your children, the guy who cut you off in traffic ... the people at work who think your wife is amazing your husband just doesn't understand you. She won't listen to them, unless its been your tenth argument and you yelled at her again and have not met her love language.
4. You can be totally happy with your wife. She can totally respect you. You'll need to use forgiveness and an ongoing understanding about how great marriages work. You learn about software techniques all the time, you're on HN after all! So now, spend a few moments learning about great marriages and how they work from the book, "The Five Love Languages".
5. Imagine, try to really imagine this, that your wife is unfulfilled as a person and as a wife. She does not have bad intentions. She is emotionally starving for something missing in her life. What if you could do, say, or in a small way meet that emotional need? Would you be willing to do it? If you're not, then someone or something else will!
1. Please, please read the book "The Five Love Languages". Don't say another word to her until you have this short book in your head. It will explain, right away, the things you need from your wife to feel loved and happy with her. You have noticed resentment building in you (its good that you're self aware and willing to talk about it). Being resentful can lead to you being really aggressive in an argument which will drive her even more into personal goals and then your marriage is over. Remember, she is still the one you fell in love with. Right now, she is high on success.
2. When a person is selfish, it is extremely hard to take away the euphoria they are feeling. For the purposes of this online discussion, it maybe you who are selfish. However, because you're the one asking about it, know that you will be the one to start the both of you down the right path. You will be the one who understands what is really going on. That is a big job, and you'll have to commit yourself to making the marriage last and work in a better way.
3. People are selfish. You, your wife, your children, the guy who cut you off in traffic ... the people at work who think your wife is amazing your husband just doesn't understand you. She won't listen to them, unless its been your tenth argument and you yelled at her again and have not met her love language.
4. You can be totally happy with your wife. She can totally respect you. You'll need to use forgiveness and an ongoing understanding about how great marriages work. You learn about software techniques all the time, you're on HN after all! So now, spend a few moments learning about great marriages and how they work from the book, "The Five Love Languages".
5. Imagine, try to really imagine this, that your wife is unfulfilled as a person and as a wife. She does not have bad intentions. She is emotionally starving for something missing in her life. What if you could do, say, or in a small way meet that emotional need? Would you be willing to do it? If you're not, then someone or something else will!
Thanks, I've heard about this book a few times now, so I've just ordered it for myself (and maybe my wife).
And jeeze, #5 there is speaking directly at me.
And jeeze, #5 there is speaking directly at me.
Trust your gut in these situations, and dont let anyone else tell you that you are being irrational.
My wife started working as a therapist, then found a career in sales and quickly moved up to a Director-level role leading a sales team. She's proud of her success and does a pretty good job juggling that and family life.
We have two young kids.
I realized I have an issue with my wife's job, feeling like it takes priority over our family. I feel I sacrifice small things regularly to allow her extra freedom for her job. I feel she budgets a disproportionate amount of energy and focus on her job, ignoring or putting off family-related duties or obligations that have a negative effect on the entire family.
When I think about my wife and her career, I'm proud of her success and I don't think I have any issue with her earning more than me or having a "better title." But I seem to have some issue with feeling less important than her job because I get annoyed when I feel that way. She tells me I'm unsupportive of her because I'm jealous of her success, but I just feel like I'm fighting for some respect for myself and I worry about a slippery slope of further sacrifice.
When we started dating, my side gigs got in the way of our dating lifestyle -- meaning it wasn't totally acceptable for me to spend hours on nights and weekends doing contract work. The income was not necessary, so I slowly let it fade away. It was never something I felt actively bitter about, but no doubt it was a sacrifice I made to have more time for her. It comes up now because when she needs extra support for her job, it's at my expense, and if I give her grief for that, I'm being unsupportive.
I'm realizing that what I'm dealing with might be a somewhat recent phenomenon, but also probably fairly common these days. I really do want my wife to be successful and happy, but I also don't want to be required to live with this feeling of sacrifice. I'm trying to figure out if my feelings are rational or irrational.