English speakers should learn math instead of a second language(leosstemhacks.wordpress.com)
leosstemhacks.wordpress.com
English speakers should learn math instead of a second language
https://leosstemhacks.wordpress.com/2019/06/13/learn-math-not-mandarin/
181 comments
I disagree with this machine-like optimization of human life. We are not machines running OSes allocating time.
Learning an instrument will help your brain in math. Learning any form of mindfulness will make you think more clearly and work efficiently. Learning languages will help you understand people and build connections and develop your brain in general.
Learning an instrument will help your brain in math. Learning any form of mindfulness will make you think more clearly and work efficiently. Learning languages will help you understand people and build connections and develop your brain in general.
My son has this habit of getting insanely deep into something when he is interested. Now, it is a Rubick's cube. Almost 24/7 he has that thing in his hand, solving it. He goes to bed with it.
My brain fries when trying to figure it out. He shows me how to do it, and I get it, but man it's definitely a different part of the brain than I'm used to using.
My brain fries when trying to figure it out. He shows me how to do it, and I get it, but man it's definitely a different part of the brain than I'm used to using.
You're free to disagree of course, but you should at least consider that you may be wrong. Perhaps we are machines running OSes allocating time (on wetware, not hardware). Or at least, maybe that's a useful way to think about how we spend our time.
I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll pretend to consider that I may be wrong, if you also pretend to consider that you may be wrong. Both knowing that neither are actually likely to consider anything of the sort.
I'm actually more than happy to consider any substantive contrary argument, but I didn't detect one in there. Even pretending to advocate for the mindset you describe is unproductive and even destructive. People reconsider viewpoints all the time.
I was being snarky because I found your comment arrogant. If you think that the analogy is useful, then I’d have no problem if you left a comment along the lines of “I find the wetware analogy useful.” But what you said is “you should change your mind” without providing any substance about why it’s a useful perspective or why you’re entitled to tell someone else to change their mind.
That's a fair critique. For the record, I was responding to a post that I felt had a similar tone.
> I disagree with this machine-like optimization of human life. We are not machines running OSes allocating time.
I doubt OP was offended. And I didn't say to change their mind. I said consider something that the tone of their comment indicated they hadn't seriously considered.
> I disagree with this machine-like optimization of human life. We are not machines running OSes allocating time.
I doubt OP was offended. And I didn't say to change their mind. I said consider something that the tone of their comment indicated they hadn't seriously considered.
All this blog post highlights is that you should have a strong and clear learning goal, because if you’re learning Mandarin because it might seem useful on vacation to China, you might be spending your time inefficiently.
I'm not sure if you're saying you agree with this, but I certainly do not. What if you just wanted to learn a language because you find learning a new language enjoyable? I've spent the past year learning another language with absolutely no end goal in mind of what I would do with it - I just find it to be a fun challenge. It's just a hobby.
I'm not sure if you're saying you agree with this, but I certainly do not. What if you just wanted to learn a language because you find learning a new language enjoyable? I've spent the past year learning another language with absolutely no end goal in mind of what I would do with it - I just find it to be a fun challenge. It's just a hobby.
"My hobby is X and I want to be better at it" seems like a pretty strong and clear goal to me.
Not really, though. I build software for a living. If I told my boss "we should make X better" they would probably want to know in what way will X be better, how much better do I want it to be, what will we gain from these improvements and approximately how long will it take me to make the improvements. That is, there should be a clear goal in mind that fits in to the bigger picture with a rough estimate of cost associated to determine if this task is worth undertaking.
For my hobby, I don't do any of this analysis. I attend a class every week and outside of class, I practice daily. I don't ask myself if it is time and money well spent, I don't have an end goal in mind (aside from the vague goal of "learning another language") or any idea how this fits in to some bigger picture. I just do it because I enjoy it. If I did all the same sort of analysis that I do at work in the context of my broader life goals, my bet is that I probably would come to the conclusion that learning this language is a waste of my time. But, what is the point of living if you spend 100% of your time achieving goals and none of your time enjoying your life. Thus, I spend time on hobbies outside of work.
For my hobby, I don't do any of this analysis. I attend a class every week and outside of class, I practice daily. I don't ask myself if it is time and money well spent, I don't have an end goal in mind (aside from the vague goal of "learning another language") or any idea how this fits in to some bigger picture. I just do it because I enjoy it. If I did all the same sort of analysis that I do at work in the context of my broader life goals, my bet is that I probably would come to the conclusion that learning this language is a waste of my time. But, what is the point of living if you spend 100% of your time achieving goals and none of your time enjoying your life. Thus, I spend time on hobbies outside of work.
In general learning foreign languages is useful for getting better in programming. It is possible that as a programmer you would get naturally attracted to such hobby.
If you went down that route, wouldn’t you include “enjoyment” as a goal, as a way your life would be “better”, and so that would get taken into account in your analysis?
Usually most people set goals that require some level of effort and/or self discipline over a longer period of time. I suppose you don't have to do this, but this is usually the standard reason for setting goals - so you can accomplish something you otherwise wouldn't if you didn't give it some special attention. Most people do things they enjoy by default - you only need to make some time for it, you don't really need to set a goal to do it.
>Usually most people set goals that require some level of effort and/or self discipline over a longer period of time.
You mean like attending a class every week and practicing daily?
You mean like attending a class every week and practicing daily?
Yeah, so this is kind of my point, actually. I like my hobbies, so they don't really require much effort and self discipline to engage in daily. If I don't have time to study one day, I don't beat myself up over it. It is just sort of my default thing to do when I have free time.
As another example, I also read fiction. I don't set goals like "I want to read X number of chapters this week" or "I want to read for X hours this week", nor do I track how much time I spend on it. It is purely for enjoyment, it doesn't matter.
As another example, I also read fiction. I don't set goals like "I want to read X number of chapters this week" or "I want to read for X hours this week", nor do I track how much time I spend on it. It is purely for enjoyment, it doesn't matter.
It reminds me a discussion with a group of students claiming that Max Weber was right saying that maximizing profits could explain human behaviour. I kept inventing more and more examples of behaviour that couldn't be explained by a pursuit of profit, and students replied on each with widening of their definition of a profit. Finally we came to a such definition that allowed any behaviour and explained nothing.
I suspect that the same could be done with your idea of a strong and clear goal.
I suspect that the same could be done with your idea of a strong and clear goal.
> What if you just wanted to learn a language because you find learning a new language enjoyable?
Yep, awesome but according to the post they shouldn’t. They should learn math because it is more useful. That is my issue with the post. Math is not more useful necessarily, because it depends on how you perceive life. One’s perspective on life tells how useful things are.
Yep, awesome but according to the post they shouldn’t. They should learn math because it is more useful. That is my issue with the post. Math is not more useful necessarily, because it depends on how you perceive life. One’s perspective on life tells how useful things are.
> start giving your kids amazing skills that you think will give them a fulfilling and good life from day one. Well yea, of course.
Definitely going to apply this to my kids, and I wish my parents did this with me on a broader space. They sent me to english classes every saturday for a lot of years (from 7 to 15 or so), and even though I hated it at the time, I'm grateful that they did because it's definitely a plus in my life nowadays. (I'm from South America, most people don't speak english or have a below mid proficiency level).
Definitely going to apply this to my kids, and I wish my parents did this with me on a broader space. They sent me to english classes every saturday for a lot of years (from 7 to 15 or so), and even though I hated it at the time, I'm grateful that they did because it's definitely a plus in my life nowadays. (I'm from South America, most people don't speak english or have a below mid proficiency level).
> start giving your kids amazing skills that you think will give them a fulfilling and good life from day one. Well yea, of course.
You'd think "well yea, of course" but man do I feel parents rarely do that. The majority, and I really do think the majority, seem to be content just doing nothing with the most valuable years of the childs life.
Perhaps I take that too seriously, but I don't think so. I feel that is one of our largest failings as a society. That and failing to encourage learning, lessons from past mistakes, self growth, etc etc.
You'd think "well yea, of course" but man do I feel parents rarely do that. The majority, and I really do think the majority, seem to be content just doing nothing with the most valuable years of the childs life.
Perhaps I take that too seriously, but I don't think so. I feel that is one of our largest failings as a society. That and failing to encourage learning, lessons from past mistakes, self growth, etc etc.
> just doing nothing with the most valuable years of the childs life
I was pushed pretty hard as a kid and I’m not a very happy adult even though I excelled academically and have a lot of “skills”. All of that pushing made me constantly criticize myself and I still push myself way too hard and feel like I’m never good enough.
As a parent, sometimes I think it’s best to do “nothing” and let my kid enjoy her childhood and do childish things without an enormous amount of pressure to develop all of these skills and “get ahead”. Kids need time to have a carefree life for awhile without adults constantly dumping pressure on them to be prepared for adult life by the time they are five years old.
I was pushed pretty hard as a kid and I’m not a very happy adult even though I excelled academically and have a lot of “skills”. All of that pushing made me constantly criticize myself and I still push myself way too hard and feel like I’m never good enough.
As a parent, sometimes I think it’s best to do “nothing” and let my kid enjoy her childhood and do childish things without an enormous amount of pressure to develop all of these skills and “get ahead”. Kids need time to have a carefree life for awhile without adults constantly dumping pressure on them to be prepared for adult life by the time they are five years old.
I definitely agree that having too many "skills" pushed on someone earlier can sometimes lead to self-criticism and other maladaptive behaviors.
I tend to think that parents should present to their children as many different potential things to learn and excel at, but allow the children to drive themselves towards what interests them. Parents can then guide them accordingly. But the child should still feel themselves in control. Sort of like when Tibetan Buddhists find the next Lama- they have the candidate choose an item from the predecessor's possessions.
I tend to think that parents should present to their children as many different potential things to learn and excel at, but allow the children to drive themselves towards what interests them. Parents can then guide them accordingly. But the child should still feel themselves in control. Sort of like when Tibetan Buddhists find the next Lama- they have the candidate choose an item from the predecessor's possessions.
Present to them a buffet and see what they come back with on their second trip through the line.
I know what my kids would do. They would take nothing but Jello, play with the ice cubes in their water glass for the remainder of their mealtime and then later they will lose their shit because they feel hungry.
I'm not surprised that they would, sounds like what most kids would do. That's why the buffet has to be curated, so that the easiest way out / path of least resistance isn't just "empty calories". So limit the offerings. And maybe use approaches like the Maya Method [0] to "trick" them into thinking what's commonly regarded as work or chores, to be fun. It's not easy, but it can at least be tried.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17905657
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17905657
As with most things, everything in moderation but your comment reminded me of ‘slow parenting’ and ‘idle parenting’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_parenting
I mean, I had nothing done with me, and it was great. By that I mean my parents did nothing to help me and I grew up entirely unfocused and unparented.
The devil is in the details now isn't it? I didn't mean to portray absolutes, I'm referring to parents who are either too uncaring or too uneducated to actually parent their children.
I'm sad that my desire for parents to parent was downvoted. I'm sure people (like your post) took my comment as a desire to push kids none stop, but I (as a person who grew up poor) am very frustrated by seeing, repeatedly, children (my friends and I mostly) who grew up without parents. It is not ideal.
The devil is in the details now isn't it? I didn't mean to portray absolutes, I'm referring to parents who are either too uncaring or too uneducated to actually parent their children.
I'm sad that my desire for parents to parent was downvoted. I'm sure people (like your post) took my comment as a desire to push kids none stop, but I (as a person who grew up poor) am very frustrated by seeing, repeatedly, children (my friends and I mostly) who grew up without parents. It is not ideal.
>The idea of teaching children math as a language from day one is an interesting concept though.
How and how young?
I have a newborn I'm teaching numbers.
How and how young?
I have a newborn I'm teaching numbers.
Keep in mind that a child’s brain is incapable of leaning certain things before it develops enough. While hard and tedious repetition may seem to work, opportunity cost is horrendous.
You are going to burn yourself out real quick. Just give them a handful of cheerios and let them figure out counting for themselves.
My last kid is off to college as a pre med major in about 6 weeks. I basically did the opposite of all of the hard charging, teach your children everything, get your children ahead things that you see promoted here on HN. Mine were free range and breaking bones and getting deathly sick and etc etc etc. But you know what? None of it killed them. They found things they were interested in, and curiosity did the rest. They just had the regular problems. Girls used to be involved in petty high school dramas that would make Shakespeare look stoic for instance. But all in all, they turned out well.
I really feel bad for the children of some of the people I see posting on HN regarding child dev.
I really feel bad for the children of some of the people I see posting on HN regarding child dev.
From article: "So, really, there are only five global languages: English, Mandarin, Hindi, Spanish, and Arabic."
I would call all these "big" languages, but I would not call Mandarin, Hindi or Arabic "global" languages. There may be over 700M speakers of Hindi/Urdu, but they live mostly on the Indian subcontinent and Hindi is not really a language of global business or education.
Spanish, and outside the above list, French, are more "global" languages in the sense that the language is a majority-dominant and/or significant language of business on several continents.
(FWIW I do know English as second language and understand a few words of French and Spanish, and can get along with everyday things in Mandarin, though I am more fluent in a couple of other small languages (Swedish and German). I am certainly not belittling the mentioned big languages, I just do not think they are truly "global".)
I would call all these "big" languages, but I would not call Mandarin, Hindi or Arabic "global" languages. There may be over 700M speakers of Hindi/Urdu, but they live mostly on the Indian subcontinent and Hindi is not really a language of global business or education.
Spanish, and outside the above list, French, are more "global" languages in the sense that the language is a majority-dominant and/or significant language of business on several continents.
(FWIW I do know English as second language and understand a few words of French and Spanish, and can get along with everyday things in Mandarin, though I am more fluent in a couple of other small languages (Swedish and German). I am certainly not belittling the mentioned big languages, I just do not think they are truly "global".)
I don't know man?
Having worked with Halliburton a while back it certainly seemed like Arabic was a global language to me. Many nations where you just have to speak it when interacting with people below the C level. There's also a lot of business you have to do in Arabic, and a lot of times when the expertise you may need is really only available from Arabic speakers. Like if you want a half way accurate estimate of how much oil Cuba likely has in the North Cuba Basin for instance. They have tools and techniques that others just haven't developed. (Or hadn't at the time.)
But I do think that when we are not so dependent on fossil fuels, Arabic will become a VERY unimportant language. I'm just not sure when that will be?
Oh, also, I'd imagine Mandarin is important too. A lot people who dealt with the Chinese on the "gotta get shit done" level used it all the time there. Also a lot of traders downtown were using that all the time when I lived in Houston. You kind of just had to when you were dealing with things in China because for many people in those sorts of positions, a lot of stuff is just moving way too fast to not be able to find the chase and cut to it faster than the next guy.
Or it was anyway? I don't know if business with China from the US is slowing because of the Trade War? Been out of that game for a while now.
Having worked with Halliburton a while back it certainly seemed like Arabic was a global language to me. Many nations where you just have to speak it when interacting with people below the C level. There's also a lot of business you have to do in Arabic, and a lot of times when the expertise you may need is really only available from Arabic speakers. Like if you want a half way accurate estimate of how much oil Cuba likely has in the North Cuba Basin for instance. They have tools and techniques that others just haven't developed. (Or hadn't at the time.)
But I do think that when we are not so dependent on fossil fuels, Arabic will become a VERY unimportant language. I'm just not sure when that will be?
Oh, also, I'd imagine Mandarin is important too. A lot people who dealt with the Chinese on the "gotta get shit done" level used it all the time there. Also a lot of traders downtown were using that all the time when I lived in Houston. You kind of just had to when you were dealing with things in China because for many people in those sorts of positions, a lot of stuff is just moving way too fast to not be able to find the chase and cut to it faster than the next guy.
Or it was anyway? I don't know if business with China from the US is slowing because of the Trade War? Been out of that game for a while now.
I think "language X is needed in country Z" does not indicate that X is a global language. It just means that because of national/cultural pride, overall ignorance, or many other reasons, language X is needed there (because nothing else will be listened or understood).
At some point it just seems like semantics, appropriately enough. There are some significant regional languages like Arabic - or Portuguese, which hasn't been brought up yet - that a lot of people speak and potentially can be relevant depending on the industry or field. It's just that not all of those people are as widely distributed as the other languages.
can sympathize here. not sure where outside of France + former colonies French is used for "business", but we were throwing around $400-$600/hr for two native English + North African Arabic speakers (who also had expertise in other Arabic dialects) for logistics work in MENA years ago. was basically impossible to get anything done without those 2 guys.
Arabic also suffers from serious fragmentation: we would need help even between people Morroco, Tunisia, and Algeria even though they're basically neighbors. i think they are the same "language" in name only.
Arabic also suffers from serious fragmentation: we would need help even between people Morroco, Tunisia, and Algeria even though they're basically neighbors. i think they are the same "language" in name only.
Yes, this.
A "global language" is by definition a language learned by significant numbers of people as a second language [1].
By most people's accounting, only English, French, and Spanish are global languages. "Minor" global languages on the rise include Mandarin, Arabic, and Hindi, but these do not have nearly the geographical distribution nor the populations of second language learners that the main global languages have.
That said, unless you have a partner or other significant connections to your target language community, consume a large amount of target language media, or are living in a country that speaks your target language, speaking to other people is not the main motivation to learn a language. You learn a foreign language because it's fun and because there are numerous studies indicating knowing a foreign language benefits your mental abilities and health.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_language
A "global language" is by definition a language learned by significant numbers of people as a second language [1].
By most people's accounting, only English, French, and Spanish are global languages. "Minor" global languages on the rise include Mandarin, Arabic, and Hindi, but these do not have nearly the geographical distribution nor the populations of second language learners that the main global languages have.
That said, unless you have a partner or other significant connections to your target language community, consume a large amount of target language media, or are living in a country that speaks your target language, speaking to other people is not the main motivation to learn a language. You learn a foreign language because it's fun and because there are numerous studies indicating knowing a foreign language benefits your mental abilities and health.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_language
As a Hindi speaker, it really irks me when people refer to the language as "Hindu". For someone talking about languages, it comes across as not having done even the most basic due diligence into the subject at hand. Not saying that's you, but that's how it comes across.
I once had a colleague -- a reasonably educated colleague -- refer to Arabic as "Islamic"...
Depending on your area of expertise you may need different languages. Like, Greek if you go into medicine.
My litmus test for a global language is: do a non-trivial amount of places cater to people who only speak that language? english is obviously a Yes.
Mandarin and every other language is a no, even in the USA unless you live near a Chinatown. The only possible exception is Spanish. So there are just 2 global languages in my eyes.
Mandarin and every other language is a no, even in the USA unless you live near a Chinatown. The only possible exception is Spanish. So there are just 2 global languages in my eyes.
Then Mandarin should be because countries that get a lot of Chinese tourists will do non-trivial work to cater to them.
That is a very recent and not yet a very strong phenomenon, but yes, we're heading that way.
This is the only practical definition there is of a global language. The others are purely theoretical and intellectual. Practicality trumps all.
Another compelling point is that high school foreign language students almost never gain meaningful competence in the language they study: https://www.econlib.org/archives/2012/08/the_marginal_pr.htm...
Math courses have a much better track record of actually teaching their students something.
However, I think individual students should still take foreign languages in high school to fulfill college application requirements. On a societal level, though, those requirements are a massive waste of time and money.
Math courses have a much better track record of actually teaching their students something.
However, I think individual students should still take foreign languages in high school to fulfill college application requirements. On a societal level, though, those requirements are a massive waste of time and money.
> Another compelling point is that high school foreign language students almost never gain meaningful competence in the language they study
My guess is that this depends on the usefulness in somewhat common situations. English for non-native English speakers seems to work pretty well, especially in counties that don't dub movies and TV shows. I'm using my high school language skills right now.
Edit: admittedly, Latin didn't stick well with me though.
My guess is that this depends on the usefulness in somewhat common situations. English for non-native English speakers seems to work pretty well, especially in counties that don't dub movies and TV shows. I'm using my high school language skills right now.
Edit: admittedly, Latin didn't stick well with me though.
I would say that the motivation non-English speaking students get from being immersed in English language media does more than half the work, though. Speaking as a Swede who took high school German and can barely introduce myself.
As far as the U.S. goes, I doubt students remember much of the math they learn, or gain much more competency in math than they would via a language course.
I teach a programming class and one of the 'easy' things I ask about is- "Have you taken algebra?"
All but 1 person had taken algebra, and with that I start into variables and functions.
So yes, people learn competent math skills in high school.
All but 1 person had taken algebra, and with that I start into variables and functions.
So yes, people learn competent math skills in high school.
Knowing what functions and variables are is below high school level, and I'd say it'd be comparative to knowing basic greetings in a foreign language. I doubt that many students who don't go on to study math after high school remember what's taught in courses at or past the Algebra 2 level.
There are lots of standardized tests that evaluate students’ math proficiency, and lots of research examining specifically how much math proficiency students gain from each year of school. Learning and retention could definitely be improved, but I’ve never seen research that claims it’s as low as it apparently is for foreign languages.
Standardised tests are pretty terrible at measuring actual competency. Standardised testing is one of the reasons why the US's school system is so poor. And I say this as someone who generally excels at these kind of arbitrary tests.
That is not relevant to the post, which assumes that the reader is actually interested in learning a language. Many (I would say most) high school students are not, and don't invest more than the minimum amount of time required to pass their courses.
Yes, if you do not practice regularly (preferably daily), and with persistence, you will not reach a high level at a foreign language. Relatively speaking, maybe math is easier. But that's not much of an argument for math and against language learning, unless you have no actual interests and just want to check a box off a list.
To be fair, many (and maybe most) adults who claim to be interested in language learning also end up giving up because they are not willing to put in the effort. Too bad for them, and for you if you find it a "waste of time and money"; I find it far more rewarding than flaunting advanced math knowledge.
Yes, if you do not practice regularly (preferably daily), and with persistence, you will not reach a high level at a foreign language. Relatively speaking, maybe math is easier. But that's not much of an argument for math and against language learning, unless you have no actual interests and just want to check a box off a list.
To be fair, many (and maybe most) adults who claim to be interested in language learning also end up giving up because they are not willing to put in the effort. Too bad for them, and for you if you find it a "waste of time and money"; I find it far more rewarding than flaunting advanced math knowledge.
As someone who lived in China for 10 years, they aren’t wrong if we are just talking about earning potential. The number of bilinguals is pretty high, you would make more than a couple of thousand RMB a month if you knew English in addition to a native mandarin. On the other hand, a machine learning expert would easily start around 60k RMB/month.
From a personal perspective, knowing another language is enriching, but don’t do it purely for the earnings gain.
From a personal perspective, knowing another language is enriching, but don’t do it purely for the earnings gain.
If you're living in a country where you don't speak the mainstream language, living there is more than reason enough by itself to learn it.
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A lot of foreigners working in China get by with only basic daily life mandarin. Mine was better than most, but no where useable for work.
Again, don’t learn mandarin just for the money. English is much more important, even in a country like China, at the upper tech echelon.
Again, don’t learn mandarin just for the money. English is much more important, even in a country like China, at the upper tech echelon.
It's pretty embarrassing to live in a country for 10 years and not being able to use it for work.
You'd be amazed at the bubbles expats can live in, especially high-value personnel like embassy staff, executives or subject matter experts. I've heard of people with english-speaking house staff (who also do all shopping), driver, everyone at the office, personal secretary who organises absolutely everything, doctors, schools - and a 24-hour phone number to dial if there's any difficulties outside that. People can go for years without ever actually having to talk to a local in their own language.
Plus, there can be weird dynamics at work. Some people will actually look down on you as having somehow debased yourself for making too much effort to study the local language, both fellow foreigners and the locals themselves. As best as I can understand, they think it comes across as too eager to please, or an attempt to ingratiate, or that you obviously don't love your own culture enough, or that you evidently have too much time and thus can't be all that important... have heard some variation on all of them.
Especially in Asia, there's a kind of stereotype of the Big Important Foreigner who has been Appointed to this Developing Country to do Important Things. Suddenly breaking into fluent $LOCALDIALECT kind of shatters that illusion and raises all sorts of questions. Sounds strange, but it's a thing.
Plus, there can be weird dynamics at work. Some people will actually look down on you as having somehow debased yourself for making too much effort to study the local language, both fellow foreigners and the locals themselves. As best as I can understand, they think it comes across as too eager to please, or an attempt to ingratiate, or that you obviously don't love your own culture enough, or that you evidently have too much time and thus can't be all that important... have heard some variation on all of them.
Especially in Asia, there's a kind of stereotype of the Big Important Foreigner who has been Appointed to this Developing Country to do Important Things. Suddenly breaking into fluent $LOCALDIALECT kind of shatters that illusion and raises all sorts of questions. Sounds strange, but it's a thing.
That attitude is definitely not a Chinese thing though.
In China, it’s the reverse. They think foreigners aren’t smart enough to learn Chinese. That’s why they are always amazed when some expat can speak even the most basic phrases.
The scary thing is that’s it’s often these “expat bubble” executives that are making decisions. No wonder foreign companies in China get taken to the cleaners.
In China, it’s the reverse. They think foreigners aren’t smart enough to learn Chinese. That’s why they are always amazed when some expat can speak even the most basic phrases.
The scary thing is that’s it’s often these “expat bubble” executives that are making decisions. No wonder foreign companies in China get taken to the cleaners.
That really isn’t always true though. There was a solid glass ceiling for non Chinese speaking managers at the senior level, and well, it was really just Chinese (even 大山 wouldn’t be Chinese enough for promo).
A senior Chinese manager in America is much more normalized than a senior western manager in China, (the former is an immigrant and has a green card, the latter is an expat and will go back next year after their assignment is done).
A senior Chinese manager in America is much more normalized than a senior western manager in China, (the former is an immigrant and has a green card, the latter is an expat and will go back next year after their assignment is done).
I haven't reached ten years abroad yet, not China, but for my anecdata, the local language is considered one of the harder ones for native English speakers to learn. To help remember it, I have to frequently put myself into situations where I feel pressure to speak and understand it. I can't just learn it by osmosis. I didn't grow up inundated by it, and I've had to invest considerably to get to where I am today with it.
I don't regret it at all, but it's time and energy which might have been better spent learning other things instead. Especially when English is mainly the official language at work, and many people on the street can speak it for business or travel anyway. Career options here are much more limited unless you have a decent command of English. My bigger reason to want to learn it has been for social purposes.
I don't regret it at all, but it's time and energy which might have been better spent learning other things instead. Especially when English is mainly the official language at work, and many people on the street can speak it for business or travel anyway. Career options here are much more limited unless you have a decent command of English. My bigger reason to want to learn it has been for social purposes.
>> living there is more than reason enough
> don’t learn mandarin just for the money
Did you reply to the wrong comment?
> don’t learn mandarin just for the money
Did you reply to the wrong comment?
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The article reads a bit like a rather long way for the author to excuse avoid learning a few of the natural languages of which it seems he would have much use. (Like French that they mention half their family speaking, or Mandarin with which they say they have a fascination..)
But also predicating all learning on its "objective usefulness" (however way you try to quantify this) seems short-sighted, what's the fun in learning something you know is useful but don't enjoy?
Somewhere there's a balance surely..
But also predicating all learning on its "objective usefulness" (however way you try to quantify this) seems short-sighted, what's the fun in learning something you know is useful but don't enjoy?
Somewhere there's a balance surely..
That's like saying "learn to play an instrument, not cooking". Everyone has different tastes/needs.
Why not learn multiple? Why make a false dichotomy? Math, programming languages, and alternative spoken languages are distinct useful things you can learn.
Otherwise what if someone said, don’t learn Math, learn Modula-2?
Otherwise what if someone said, don’t learn Math, learn Modula-2?
I've always had a suspicion that one person can't be a master of all things due to the physical limitations of human memory. Isn't that why we specialize?
In life you usually want to be a master of one thing, but have knowledge of many other things to apply that mastery as widely as possible. Learning 10 languages at the 101 level can let you say "Hi, I'm a master of (whatever)" to many more people.
No, you want to be a master of 2 things: A human language, and something that everyone else on the planet isn’t also a master of. Mastering two things is hard. Mastering three things is near impossible. (Although If you naturally get multiple human languages, from parents from different linguistic backgrounds, for example, that’s great. And you might have a chance of mastering both. But one of them ought to be English.)
More like the physical limitations on lifespan.
But probably memory as well. If I start specializing elsewhere I'll forget the intricate details of the thing I'm already specialized in.
Don't think it works like that.
Rather, it's that you have only so much time to dedicate to things... if you're focusing very much on one, then you're not spending time with the other -- and overtime, you'll lose that other thing. If you can manage to spend a good amount of time on two things (let's say, learning a new instrument and learning a language) everyday, consistently, then you will get both.
Rather, it's that you have only so much time to dedicate to things... if you're focusing very much on one, then you're not spending time with the other -- and overtime, you'll lose that other thing. If you can manage to spend a good amount of time on two things (let's say, learning a new instrument and learning a language) everyday, consistently, then you will get both.
It does work like that. As you get older your ability to retain information wanes.
That could be physical degradation from age, not necessarily the "running out of disk space".
Why does the cause matter?
Because if it's simply because of physical degradation, that means someone can keep on learning and not worry about running out of memory.
If your memory doesn't work, what does it matter how much you have?
You can create ungrounded abstractions all you you want, but as an older person who has commiserated with other older people, the common conception that it's harder to learn and retain things in older age is a real thing
You can create ungrounded abstractions all you you want, but as an older person who has commiserated with other older people, the common conception that it's harder to learn and retain things in older age is a real thing
Sure, but what you're describing is the difficulty of learning as age sets in. That's very different from the original assertion- "If I start specializing elsewhere I'll forget the intricate details of the thing I'm already specialized in." - unless that person was describing themselves as older.
If you wish to exclude more than half the population from your statement be explicit about it.
Every time I learn something new, a little of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took that wine making course and forgot how to drive?
- Homer Simpson
- Homer Simpson
Mastering a foreign language and math is not outside of realm of any human though - there's millions of people who learn both English and even more foreign languages together with math. Or anything else.
Or are you saying that non-Americans are less knowledgable because they learned one more language?
Or are you saying that non-Americans are less knowledgable because they learned one more language?
>Why not learn multiple? Why make a false dichotomy?
Because of opportunity cost
Because of opportunity cost
not really. if you are waiting in a line, or taking public transportation, you can use you smartphone to practice some natural language, but not math which requires deep focus.
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Okay if you want to treat life like an RPG you need to minmax the right skills in, fine. That's a very strange, naively calculated, and from my perspective, totally unfulfilling way to live life.
Actually it's how most regular people live life every moment. Go with this or that profession, learn this or that language, study this or that framework. Learn guitar or drums?
You don't need to be from Vulcan to understand you can't have it all simultaneously.
And it has nothing to do with microptimizing and minmaxing everything - which is a caricature.
Even just at the very high level view you know you have x time after work, and you could go study a foreign language, or you could study math, or learn to cook, or whatever. Some things you can fit together, most you need to prune...
You don't need to be from Vulcan to understand you can't have it all simultaneously.
And it has nothing to do with microptimizing and minmaxing everything - which is a caricature.
Even just at the very high level view you know you have x time after work, and you could go study a foreign language, or you could study math, or learn to cook, or whatever. Some things you can fit together, most you need to prune...
If we're talking about "opportunity cost" in a very fuzzy "you made an assessment that prefers another option" kind of way that's fine (though its goofy HN pseud-speak, but w/e), but it's also completely unhelpful in a discussion about what to focus on learning. To your point, everybody lives life this way, there's really no other way to live life than to make judgements, so why respond w/ that unless you're actually making some more targeted point about only learning things that provide you the highest utility.
>though its goofy HN pseud-speak
Opportunity cost is an open-ended economic term, not some obscure math or physics arcana, and it's core is all about preferring one option over another after an assessment (of what you lose by not going with the other, etc).
Using it casually is totally compatible with the concept, it's not like using hard math (e.g. Godel's incompleteness theorem") in some pseudo-scientific fashion.
>To your point, everybody lives life this way, there's really no other way to live life than to make judgements, so why respond w/ that unless you're actually making some more targeted point about only learning things that provide you the highest utility.
Everybody uses O/C in some way or another in their lives (it's not some obscure idea of only academic interest), but not everybody uses it well.
Many waste efforts on multiple things ("jack of all trades"), others chose the thing that makes them worse off professionally or personally over better options open to them, etc.
So, that's the point I was making: choosing math over Chinese (as the author suggests) can work out well from a O/C perspective. Understanding math better is more approachable than learning a language like Chinese adequately to make anything of it, and can have a wide impact (especially to a programmer, but also in personal life, business decisions, etc).
Opportunity cost is an open-ended economic term, not some obscure math or physics arcana, and it's core is all about preferring one option over another after an assessment (of what you lose by not going with the other, etc).
Using it casually is totally compatible with the concept, it's not like using hard math (e.g. Godel's incompleteness theorem") in some pseudo-scientific fashion.
>To your point, everybody lives life this way, there's really no other way to live life than to make judgements, so why respond w/ that unless you're actually making some more targeted point about only learning things that provide you the highest utility.
Everybody uses O/C in some way or another in their lives (it's not some obscure idea of only academic interest), but not everybody uses it well.
Many waste efforts on multiple things ("jack of all trades"), others chose the thing that makes them worse off professionally or personally over better options open to them, etc.
So, that's the point I was making: choosing math over Chinese (as the author suggests) can work out well from a O/C perspective. Understanding math better is more approachable than learning a language like Chinese adequately to make anything of it, and can have a wide impact (especially to a programmer, but also in personal life, business decisions, etc).
> Opportunity cost is an open-ended economic term, not some obscure math or physics arcana, and it's core is all about preferring one option over another after an assessment (of what you lose by not going with the other, etc).
lol I know its not arcana or hard math, but framing a decision people regularly make in life without any means of holistic assessment or accounting for the options like its a micro-econ problem if you just informally mean "make a judgement call", is the type of terminology abuse that's the hallmark of a pseud.
> but not everybody uses it well. Many waste efforts on multiple things ("jack of all trades"), others chose the thing that makes them worse off professionally or personally over better options open to them, etc.
And this is at the root of my objection to this, what could you possibly mean here by "not everybody uses it well"? To what or whose criteria can you possibly make such an assessment?
> So, that's the point I was making: choosing math over Chinese (as the author suggests) can work out well from a O/C perspective. Understanding math better is more approachable than learning a language like Chinese adequately to make anything of it, and can have a wide impact (especially to a programmer, but also in personal life, business decisions, etc).
You might fall in love with a Chinese national and want to learn your partner's native tongue. You might have your life wholly changed by a work of Chinese literature. This is why this whole framing is utterly insane, there's no way to account for all the ways your life might be bettered by both these pursuits. Why even make some facile pseudo-analytic attempt. It's just dumb STEM dick measuring to pretend like there's a way to assess this.
lol I know its not arcana or hard math, but framing a decision people regularly make in life without any means of holistic assessment or accounting for the options like its a micro-econ problem if you just informally mean "make a judgement call", is the type of terminology abuse that's the hallmark of a pseud.
> but not everybody uses it well. Many waste efforts on multiple things ("jack of all trades"), others chose the thing that makes them worse off professionally or personally over better options open to them, etc.
And this is at the root of my objection to this, what could you possibly mean here by "not everybody uses it well"? To what or whose criteria can you possibly make such an assessment?
> So, that's the point I was making: choosing math over Chinese (as the author suggests) can work out well from a O/C perspective. Understanding math better is more approachable than learning a language like Chinese adequately to make anything of it, and can have a wide impact (especially to a programmer, but also in personal life, business decisions, etc).
You might fall in love with a Chinese national and want to learn your partner's native tongue. You might have your life wholly changed by a work of Chinese literature. This is why this whole framing is utterly insane, there's no way to account for all the ways your life might be bettered by both these pursuits. Why even make some facile pseudo-analytic attempt. It's just dumb STEM dick measuring to pretend like there's a way to assess this.
>And this is at the root of my objection to this, what could you possibly mean here by "not everybody uses it well"? To what or whose criteria can you possibly make such an assessment?
Well, I'm not an alien that just landed. So I have personal experience with life, an understanding of culture, an education, some historical knowledge, etc, and so I can make judgements (even without writing some full formal paper of citing stats) about people making the wrong choices in their lives.
Maybe not perfect judgments, but it's not like I'm some alien that has just landed on Earth from space, and one has to wonder how could I ever possibly "make such an assessment" for others.
But even if you ignore me as a non-authority on the matter, I can argue that people themselves frequently lament their own previous life choices and with they'd gotten with X or Y, or lament how their choice on Y brought them to the bottom, and so on.
So from that alone, we can safely assume that "not everybody uses [their assessments on what options to follow] well".
Well, I'm not an alien that just landed. So I have personal experience with life, an understanding of culture, an education, some historical knowledge, etc, and so I can make judgements (even without writing some full formal paper of citing stats) about people making the wrong choices in their lives.
Maybe not perfect judgments, but it's not like I'm some alien that has just landed on Earth from space, and one has to wonder how could I ever possibly "make such an assessment" for others.
But even if you ignore me as a non-authority on the matter, I can argue that people themselves frequently lament their own previous life choices and with they'd gotten with X or Y, or lament how their choice on Y brought them to the bottom, and so on.
So from that alone, we can safely assume that "not everybody uses [their assessments on what options to follow] well".
>you want to treat life like an RPG you need to minmax the right skills in, fine. That's a very strange, naively calculated, and from my perspective, totally unfulfilling way to live life.
It's not naive to try and optimize learning to help maximize a fulfilling life. The available time in life to learn is finite and therefore choices have to be made.
Not every subject has equal importance. It would also be naive to think every subject or skill has equal relevance to a particular person's life and therefore one can just choose randomly.
(I learned that lesson very late in life. In my 20s, I was very careless and carefree about what I learned and I squandered away a lot of valuable years. I wasn't discriminating enough about the topics I spent time on.)
It's not naive to try and optimize learning to help maximize a fulfilling life. The available time in life to learn is finite and therefore choices have to be made.
Not every subject has equal importance. It would also be naive to think every subject or skill has equal relevance to a particular person's life and therefore one can just choose randomly.
(I learned that lesson very late in life. In my 20s, I was very careless and carefree about what I learned and I squandered away a lot of valuable years. I wasn't discriminating enough about the topics I spent time on.)
> It's not naive to try and optimize learning to help maximize a fulfilling life. The time in life to learn is finite and therefore choices have to be made.
There's lots of enjoyment to be had in learning things that aren't immediately (or even remotely) useful, and there's often a lot of unanticipated utility in learning things that are pursued for pure enjoyment. There are entire fields in mathematics that were/are pursued for personal enjoyment and later proved to be incredibly useful (or might never be!).
> Not every subject has equal importance. It would also be naive to think every subject or skill has equal relevance to a particular person's life and therefore one can just choose randomly.
I'm not saying you need to choose your pursuits randomly or without account of the time they take, but I think making these choices only for monetary gain or purely on some basis of what utility you think they'll provide is a pretty joyless existence in either case, and w/ the latter consideration is a pretty naive accounting of your ability to meaningful assess an "opportunity cost". Leisure activity, learning for learning's sake, broadening your cultural horizons, etc. are all worthwhile things in my book.
If you're talking about opportunity cost in a fuzzy "there are other things I'd rather learn, or some particular thing seems more useful to me now" kind of way, that's a goofy metaphor and an unhelpful insight in the context of offering advice about what things to learn.
> (I learned that lesson very late in life. In my 20s, I was very careless and carefree about what I learned and I squandered away a lot of valuable years. I wasn't discriminating enough about the topics I spent time on.)
Without any context into what you think was squandered by learning other things, it's impossible for me to appreciate your POV on this, but it seems unlikely to me that you lost all that much.
There's lots of enjoyment to be had in learning things that aren't immediately (or even remotely) useful, and there's often a lot of unanticipated utility in learning things that are pursued for pure enjoyment. There are entire fields in mathematics that were/are pursued for personal enjoyment and later proved to be incredibly useful (or might never be!).
> Not every subject has equal importance. It would also be naive to think every subject or skill has equal relevance to a particular person's life and therefore one can just choose randomly.
I'm not saying you need to choose your pursuits randomly or without account of the time they take, but I think making these choices only for monetary gain or purely on some basis of what utility you think they'll provide is a pretty joyless existence in either case, and w/ the latter consideration is a pretty naive accounting of your ability to meaningful assess an "opportunity cost". Leisure activity, learning for learning's sake, broadening your cultural horizons, etc. are all worthwhile things in my book.
If you're talking about opportunity cost in a fuzzy "there are other things I'd rather learn, or some particular thing seems more useful to me now" kind of way, that's a goofy metaphor and an unhelpful insight in the context of offering advice about what things to learn.
> (I learned that lesson very late in life. In my 20s, I was very careless and carefree about what I learned and I squandered away a lot of valuable years. I wasn't discriminating enough about the topics I spent time on.)
Without any context into what you think was squandered by learning other things, it's impossible for me to appreciate your POV on this, but it seems unlikely to me that you lost all that much.
> There's lots of enjoyment to be had in learning things that aren't immediately (or even remotely) useful, and there's often a lot of unanticipated utility in learning things that are pursued for pure enjoyment.
I'm not sure what you're arguing against. Enjoyment is utility. But if I would enjoy learning two different things equally, I should pick the one that would also satisfy me in other ways, or the one that would deliver that enjoyment more efficiently, so I can also have time to do something else that I also enjoy.
There's a cost to spending time, that's why people call it spending time.
I'm not sure what you're arguing against. Enjoyment is utility. But if I would enjoy learning two different things equally, I should pick the one that would also satisfy me in other ways, or the one that would deliver that enjoyment more efficiently, so I can also have time to do something else that I also enjoy.
There's a cost to spending time, that's why people call it spending time.
That’s a very strange reading of the parent comment.
The opportunity cost of learning a language at school is very small.
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Eh read the article, there are more interesting points worth discussing or disagreeing with in it
> Just as natural languages derive directly from our needs to do things with, and communicate about, things in, and state of in the real world, such as running away from lions, attracting mates, and (more recently) engaging in commerce, mathematics derives directly from our needs to do the exact same sorts of things: count chickens (or the number of lions you are running away from), mark time, distance, and rate (as you run from them) and their relationships, and so on.
This is a pretty half-baked comparison. Math is great for describing things which can be defined precisely and their interactions. Numbers, physical systems, economics, etc.
Human language can be (and is) used for these purposes as well, but more broadly is useful for an entirely different purpose: expressing emotions, sussing out the meaning of things, developing relationships, providing a voice for the human condition. Mathematics is ill-suited at best for these purposes. Both language paradigms may be able to quantify how fast one has to run to get away from a lion. Only one of them can express why you’d want to, or the terror you’d feel trying to do so.
This is a pretty half-baked comparison. Math is great for describing things which can be defined precisely and their interactions. Numbers, physical systems, economics, etc.
Human language can be (and is) used for these purposes as well, but more broadly is useful for an entirely different purpose: expressing emotions, sussing out the meaning of things, developing relationships, providing a voice for the human condition. Mathematics is ill-suited at best for these purposes. Both language paradigms may be able to quantify how fast one has to run to get away from a lion. Only one of them can express why you’d want to, or the terror you’d feel trying to do so.
«there are no studies that suggest that learning math as a “native speaker” does not have at least the same, and perhaps even more benefit», this reasoning is so flawed.
Basic math is _really_ important, and not uniformly taught well. Stuff like understanding compound interest would help a _lot_ of people avoid poverty or financial hardship. What's surprising to me is that mathematics education (in many places) emphasizes things that are rarely useful _in daily life_ while ignoring things that are actually critical in many situations.
> Basic math is _really_ important, and not uniformly taught well. Stuff like understanding compound interest would help a _lot_ of people avoid poverty or financial hardship. What's surprising to me is that mathematics education (in many places) emphasizes things that are rarely useful _in daily life_ while ignoring things that are actually critical in many situations.
Agreed. I remember asking in high school what the material we studied was helpful for as I was struggling with motivation -- I was told to help shape my brain which is the blanket reasoning used from everything from Latin to music.
I think in addition to the important areas you highlighted, statistics is so fundamental to understanding the world around us and should be emphasized alongside.
Agreed. I remember asking in high school what the material we studied was helpful for as I was struggling with motivation -- I was told to help shape my brain which is the blanket reasoning used from everything from Latin to music.
I think in addition to the important areas you highlighted, statistics is so fundamental to understanding the world around us and should be emphasized alongside.
I would argue that an individual (and in turn, the entire world) would be benefit more from learning the "languages" of, or getting a good grounding in, logic and epistemology.
Logic, so you can think straight, and epistemology, so you are able to recognize when your axioms are not actually hard facts, which is where a lot of complicated fuzzy-logic style disagreements (anything related to complex systems (weather, economics, government), culture, gender, sexuality, etc) break down even between two people who have highly advanced logical capabilities.
Logic, so you can think straight, and epistemology, so you are able to recognize when your axioms are not actually hard facts, which is where a lot of complicated fuzzy-logic style disagreements (anything related to complex systems (weather, economics, government), culture, gender, sexuality, etc) break down even between two people who have highly advanced logical capabilities.
I am sad I am not seeing a strong cultural push towards everyone learning a single common language (which, for historical reasons, could well be English) at least as a well-acquired second language. Instead, the received present-day norm is to insist on cultural and linguistic diversity. Learn Spanish. Learn Mandarin. Learn German. Learn French. Oh, and while you are at it, learn Welsh or Irish too... It’s bewildering. And those enormous corps of translators seem like such a wasted effort!
It would be very useful to have a worldwide auxiliary language, but Esperanto's experience shows that the coordination challenges of picking one and convincing institutions or individuals that it's worth it for them are formidable.
People may also resent being told that they have to learn a specific language for many different reasons related to their feelings about that language or the people who speak it. You can see pockets (or wide swaths) of resentment toward many widely-spoken languages.
I remember being shocked at the thought that people around the world wouldn't naturally get enthusiastic about Esperanto as a sort of Schelling point and just learn it. But if you think about the practical day-to-day communication dynamics that people confront, they usually have some particular regional or national language that would be especially useful to learn. That benefit is obvious and reliably foreseeable, whereas the benefit of joining in an inchoate humanity-wide auxiliary language project is speculative and at best delayed.
People may also resent being told that they have to learn a specific language for many different reasons related to their feelings about that language or the people who speak it. You can see pockets (or wide swaths) of resentment toward many widely-spoken languages.
I remember being shocked at the thought that people around the world wouldn't naturally get enthusiastic about Esperanto as a sort of Schelling point and just learn it. But if you think about the practical day-to-day communication dynamics that people confront, they usually have some particular regional or national language that would be especially useful to learn. That benefit is obvious and reliably foreseeable, whereas the benefit of joining in an inchoate humanity-wide auxiliary language project is speculative and at best delayed.
I like English, and I love Russian. I can do with Russian wonderful bewildering things. Ow, I've seen some wonderful things that can be done with English and cannot be translated into Russian, but I know much more language tricks that cannot be translated into English.
It is a funny thing to borrow English tricks and to make them with Russian. For example I love the idea of phrasal verb, especially when a preposition becomes a word the sentence ends with. It is so alien for Russian, but somehow it have meaning when done in Russian.
I mean, I like English but I'm not ready to throw Russian away. From other hand, using grammar of one language with other is a way to converge languages into one, but it mightn't work. Some people become nervous when their language borrows features of other languages, they see it as an expansion of that other language, they are afraid of losing their beloved language.
There is a vocal opposition in Russia to the borrowing words from other languages, especially from English, which is seen as a dominant language abusing its power to oppress weaker languages (a natural Russian reaction to any power: power exists to be abused, it is an axiom in the Russian culture). I know that French have an opposition like this, though maybe due to other reasons.
Maybe if English started to incorporate words and grammar from all languages around the world, it could become a language of languages, but I suspect that languages needs rules forbidding some constructs to be language that allow express things. Incorporating all possible rules probably would make any word combination to be allowed and language might lose its purpose.
It is a funny thing to borrow English tricks and to make them with Russian. For example I love the idea of phrasal verb, especially when a preposition becomes a word the sentence ends with. It is so alien for Russian, but somehow it have meaning when done in Russian.
I mean, I like English but I'm not ready to throw Russian away. From other hand, using grammar of one language with other is a way to converge languages into one, but it mightn't work. Some people become nervous when their language borrows features of other languages, they see it as an expansion of that other language, they are afraid of losing their beloved language.
There is a vocal opposition in Russia to the borrowing words from other languages, especially from English, which is seen as a dominant language abusing its power to oppress weaker languages (a natural Russian reaction to any power: power exists to be abused, it is an axiom in the Russian culture). I know that French have an opposition like this, though maybe due to other reasons.
Maybe if English started to incorporate words and grammar from all languages around the world, it could become a language of languages, but I suspect that languages needs rules forbidding some constructs to be language that allow express things. Incorporating all possible rules probably would make any word combination to be allowed and language might lose its purpose.
It’s interesting that your first language is Russian. It happens to be mine, too. And I would eagerly — without a moment’s hesitation — throw it away for English as a common language. And this despite having studied Russian linguistics and literature at university level and having translated a handful of books into Russian.
If English as a common language was a real possibility, then I might accept it. Not without hesitation, but I think I would. But I couldn't imagine clearly such a possibility, because it is unreal. For example: why someone needs to abandon his/her native language? I personally couldn't just unlearn such a thing.
> Maybe if English started to incorporate words and grammar from all languages around the world, it could become a language of languages, but I suspect that languages needs rules forbidding some constructs to be language that allow express things. Incorporating all possible rules probably would make any word combination to be allowed and language might lose its purpose.
English borrows words promiscuously from other languages. Many were borrowed from French after the Norman conquest. Many were borrowed from Latin and Greek by scholars. In fact there's a list of lists here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_words_by_coun...
All the loanwords in English is one reason why its orthography (spelling) is so difficult.
English borrows words promiscuously from other languages. Many were borrowed from French after the Norman conquest. Many were borrowed from Latin and Greek by scholars. In fact there's a list of lists here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_words_by_coun...
All the loanwords in English is one reason why its orthography (spelling) is so difficult.
The worst thing (more exaggerated in American English) is that English speakers attempt to both pronounce and conjugate those borrowed words as they are in the source language. Part of that is obviously the Germanic roots, where there aren't any regular conjugations, and plenty of the conjugations are arbitrary infixes - but listen to an English person say "valet" or "herb," or worse, the horror of "Nicaragua" and it's obvious that Americans do this more.
Y Gymraeg is a lovely language. Music to my ears.
There have been several pushes for common languages. Latin once dominated at least the sciences and clergy. French was the literal lingua franca for a good while in various contexts. English has kind of taken over that role at the moment. But those languages are all a bit shitty when it comes to ease-of-learning. French with its complex grammar. English with its spelling oddities and its absolutely mind-bogglingly vast vocabulary. Latin, well, who even speaks Latin anymore.
Artificial languages like Esperanto are allegedly easier to learn, but they've never taken off.
I've long held the belief that the EU should make English a mandatory second language across all its member states. It's easily the most spoken second language in the EU already, but there are huge differences in proficiencies across countries/regions.
There have been several pushes for common languages. Latin once dominated at least the sciences and clergy. French was the literal lingua franca for a good while in various contexts. English has kind of taken over that role at the moment. But those languages are all a bit shitty when it comes to ease-of-learning. French with its complex grammar. English with its spelling oddities and its absolutely mind-bogglingly vast vocabulary. Latin, well, who even speaks Latin anymore.
Artificial languages like Esperanto are allegedly easier to learn, but they've never taken off.
I've long held the belief that the EU should make English a mandatory second language across all its member states. It's easily the most spoken second language in the EU already, but there are huge differences in proficiencies across countries/regions.
“Literal lingua franca” might be a bit confusing, because Mediterranean Lingua Franca was a pidgin based on northern Italian dialects.
English is already a mandatory second language in pretty much all countries of the EU. Where it isn't mandatory, it is still the de facto second language in education.
> But those languages are all a bit shitty when it comes to ease-of-learning. French with its complex grammar. English with its spelling oddities and its absolutely mind-bogglingly vast vocabulary.
Well, every natural language that developed organically and was not artificially created will, by necessity, have its quirks. But if it is learned early enough in life and actually used on a daily basis, people will overcome these quirks.
Latin’s use as an international language of religion, scholarship and science occurred during the time when it was already all but dead. Only a tiny minority of the population knew it; and there was neither a universal system of education to teach it, nor mass media to provide continuous examples of its usage. When French and German were tried as international languages, the situation was somewhat better in the sense that they both were living languages; but still there was no infrastructure in place to teach it to large segments of the population. Now, I feel, the situation is very different. A huge proportion of population receives primary and secondary education, which offers a great opportunity to teach a common second language. A massive amount of films, books, or radio programs offer examples of oral and written English usage; and the Internet is connecting people at a previously unimaginable scale. Now, I feel, we have a fighting chance of finally getting a common language.
Of course, I understand that a language becomes international not only due to its linguistic merits, but in a large respect due to the political and economic power of the countries where it is spoken. And since China is on the rise and the West is somewhat in decline, I fear that English may lose its momentum, and we may lose our chance to have it as a truly universal language.
Well, every natural language that developed organically and was not artificially created will, by necessity, have its quirks. But if it is learned early enough in life and actually used on a daily basis, people will overcome these quirks.
Latin’s use as an international language of religion, scholarship and science occurred during the time when it was already all but dead. Only a tiny minority of the population knew it; and there was neither a universal system of education to teach it, nor mass media to provide continuous examples of its usage. When French and German were tried as international languages, the situation was somewhat better in the sense that they both were living languages; but still there was no infrastructure in place to teach it to large segments of the population. Now, I feel, the situation is very different. A huge proportion of population receives primary and secondary education, which offers a great opportunity to teach a common second language. A massive amount of films, books, or radio programs offer examples of oral and written English usage; and the Internet is connecting people at a previously unimaginable scale. Now, I feel, we have a fighting chance of finally getting a common language.
Of course, I understand that a language becomes international not only due to its linguistic merits, but in a large respect due to the political and economic power of the countries where it is spoken. And since China is on the rise and the West is somewhat in decline, I fear that English may lose its momentum, and we may lose our chance to have it as a truly universal language.
That English is extremely difficult to write is a serious issue, though. A very large portion of English speakers are functionally illiterate.
Sure, why don't we start this initiative by learning Mandarin?
Or does it have to be YOUR language that everyone should be obligated to learn and communicate in?
Or does it have to be YOUR language that everyone should be obligated to learn and communicate in?
Firstly, it isn't mine. At least not by birth. Unfortunately.
Secondly, this kind of moral objection ("does it have to be YOUR language"), intended to shame the proponent of this idea for their presumptuousness, will never get us anywhere. Why don't we start this initiative by learning Mandarin, you say? Why not Arabic, someone replies. Why not French, another says. Why not Spanish, joins yet another. And Welsh, let’s not forget about Welsh, another cries.
Framing the question of why pick language X instead of language Y in moral terms is pointless. Sure, one can try to argue from a purely linguistic perspective, pointing out unwieldiness of Chinese characters as opposed to Latin-based alphabets; or the general rarity of tonal languages, such as Chinese; but that’s a crappy argument. A good argument, I think, is that we are at a point where English is already used as an international language in a number of spheres, and instead of discarding it and picking an entirely different language and re-training humanity to use it, it makes much more sense to continue pushing forward with it.
Secondly, this kind of moral objection ("does it have to be YOUR language"), intended to shame the proponent of this idea for their presumptuousness, will never get us anywhere. Why don't we start this initiative by learning Mandarin, you say? Why not Arabic, someone replies. Why not French, another says. Why not Spanish, joins yet another. And Welsh, let’s not forget about Welsh, another cries.
Framing the question of why pick language X instead of language Y in moral terms is pointless. Sure, one can try to argue from a purely linguistic perspective, pointing out unwieldiness of Chinese characters as opposed to Latin-based alphabets; or the general rarity of tonal languages, such as Chinese; but that’s a crappy argument. A good argument, I think, is that we are at a point where English is already used as an international language in a number of spheres, and instead of discarding it and picking an entirely different language and re-training humanity to use it, it makes much more sense to continue pushing forward with it.
Based on OP the number of English and Mandarin speakers is roughly the same, and considering written Chinese is mostly shared between languages that would mean that more people can currently read Chinese than English.
You have your qualms about Mandarin, but anyone can complain about a language they do not speak, and claim it is too difficult for this or that reason. Compared to English, Chinese grammar is very simple, the written language is compact, and there is little confusion about pronunciation. It seems as good as any (if not better than most) as an international language.
It seems you realize it as well, as it is hinted in your own posts; you will never convince everyone to pick your preferred language and convert to it. It is like trying to convert everyone to the same religion. You may think that your choice of [language/religion] is the best one, the one that makes the most sense, without realizing your own bias.
You have your qualms about Mandarin, but anyone can complain about a language they do not speak, and claim it is too difficult for this or that reason. Compared to English, Chinese grammar is very simple, the written language is compact, and there is little confusion about pronunciation. It seems as good as any (if not better than most) as an international language.
It seems you realize it as well, as it is hinted in your own posts; you will never convince everyone to pick your preferred language and convert to it. It is like trying to convert everyone to the same religion. You may think that your choice of [language/religion] is the best one, the one that makes the most sense, without realizing your own bias.
"Be kind. Don't be snarky."
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
There is a lot of unique content in Chinese already, and the number will grow substantially in the upcoming years. It includes scientific and not-scientific content. So I wouldn't call learning Mandarin a "waste of time".
>It includes scientific
Chinese is rife with misinformation, alternative facts, sophistry and pure garbage, any thing scientific is either translated to English already or tranlated from English and other languages.
>and not-scientific content.
It's OK if you major in Asian studies or something, for an average guy the overall quality of Chinese content is just not worth you time. Not to mention modern Chinese only existed little more than a century.
I repeat what I said, I oppose spending too much time (more than dabbling) on Chinese by any average person or student, Chinese is a very messy language, for the people worth your time talking to they most likely already know basic English.
Chinese is rife with misinformation, alternative facts, sophistry and pure garbage, any thing scientific is either translated to English already or tranlated from English and other languages.
>and not-scientific content.
It's OK if you major in Asian studies or something, for an average guy the overall quality of Chinese content is just not worth you time. Not to mention modern Chinese only existed little more than a century.
I repeat what I said, I oppose spending too much time (more than dabbling) on Chinese by any average person or student, Chinese is a very messy language, for the people worth your time talking to they most likely already know basic English.
Meeting someone half way is nice.
I like being able to talk to random other people speaking English as a foreign language. It's useful. It sure would be nice if English speakers would pick up some phrases or a basic understanding in a language of their choosing.
Also, languages aren't equal. Translating poetry is an art and most likely lossy. Emotions don't work the same across languages. I can tell my (ironically: Chinese) gf "I love you", but while that is true it is merely a crappy word by word translation of "Ich liebe dich". The latter is the sensation I feel, the former me describing as a 3rd party observer what's going on. Half-assed.
Don't learn Chinese because you read online articles claiming you should, don't stop learning Chinese because online articles call it useless and maybe do try to know more than one language..
I like being able to talk to random other people speaking English as a foreign language. It's useful. It sure would be nice if English speakers would pick up some phrases or a basic understanding in a language of their choosing.
Also, languages aren't equal. Translating poetry is an art and most likely lossy. Emotions don't work the same across languages. I can tell my (ironically: Chinese) gf "I love you", but while that is true it is merely a crappy word by word translation of "Ich liebe dich". The latter is the sensation I feel, the former me describing as a 3rd party observer what's going on. Half-assed.
Don't learn Chinese because you read online articles claiming you should, don't stop learning Chinese because online articles call it useless and maybe do try to know more than one language..
With that mentality I doubt that you speak a foreign language. If that's the case, of course you think that everything "important" is translated for you already - it's not going to show up on Google if you don't search it in its published language. Considering your tone I doubt I can convince you, so all I will say is that you don't know what you're missing.
Please don't cross into personal attack on HN.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Personal attack? How fitting on a post about languages that people can't seem to read.
Yes, seven "you"'s in a row coupled with negative statements crosses into personal attack. Please follow the site guidelines so we don't have to ban you again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> Chinese is rife with misinformation, alternative facts, sophistry and pure garbage
Sorry, but you can't post slurs to Hacker News and we ban accounts that do it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(Sometimes people do this when they're of that background themselves and have some criticisms to make, so to speak, of the home team. That may be fine in person but it's not fine here. It has an overwhelmingly provocative effect whether you mean it that way or not.)
Sorry, but you can't post slurs to Hacker News and we ban accounts that do it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(Sometimes people do this when they're of that background themselves and have some criticisms to make, so to speak, of the home team. That may be fine in person but it's not fine here. It has an overwhelmingly provocative effect whether you mean it that way or not.)
The author raises a good point that I agree with: math provides more direct value than learning a foreign language to native English speakers. The author talks about what children should be learning and I don't know enough about children's education to disagree, but if you're an adult, I think it's a good idea to learn at least one second language.
Language study and math are not mutually exclusive for me.
When I've learned math it's through focused effort, sitting down and doing math problems, thinking really hard, and talking to people with a whiteboard.
When I start study languages I'm mostly filling time, things like listening to podcasts in the language, going through Anki flashcards while waiting in line or on the subway, or reading things about the language.
Learning the foundations of a foreign language is closer to brushing my teeth or going to the gym than it is to learning math. You just do some mundane things every day for a long time and suddenly you wake up with new skills.
Once you have a solid foundation, then it's closer to having fun than studying. You just chat with people or read things you're interested in, the same as you probably already do for fun in your first languages.
Anyways, my point is that if you have even a little free time or some downtime (like a commute), you can probably fit in time to learn a new language and not take anything away from your other pursuits like actively studying.
That said, I don't think learning a new language is easy, but it's rewarding and the improved cultural understanding, of both your target language and culture and your first culture and languages, it brings makes it worth it to people who live in a globally connected society.
Language study and math are not mutually exclusive for me.
When I've learned math it's through focused effort, sitting down and doing math problems, thinking really hard, and talking to people with a whiteboard.
When I start study languages I'm mostly filling time, things like listening to podcasts in the language, going through Anki flashcards while waiting in line or on the subway, or reading things about the language.
Learning the foundations of a foreign language is closer to brushing my teeth or going to the gym than it is to learning math. You just do some mundane things every day for a long time and suddenly you wake up with new skills.
Once you have a solid foundation, then it's closer to having fun than studying. You just chat with people or read things you're interested in, the same as you probably already do for fun in your first languages.
Anyways, my point is that if you have even a little free time or some downtime (like a commute), you can probably fit in time to learn a new language and not take anything away from your other pursuits like actively studying.
That said, I don't think learning a new language is easy, but it's rewarding and the improved cultural understanding, of both your target language and culture and your first culture and languages, it brings makes it worth it to people who live in a globally connected society.
Someone who's studying these as a hobby is likely going to run into more uses for Mandarin in their day to day life than, say, Calculus. You're more likely going to run into a situation where you're saying "I wish I could talk to that person" or "I wish I knew what that said" than you are going to run into a situation where you go "I wish I could calculate the second derivative of that formula." And though I doubt self-studying either of those is going to boost your career much, self-studying Mandarin is probably going to be more beneficial (it makes sense to stick "I speak Mandarin" on more resumes than "I know calculus").
In the end, though, you're best off either studying something to reach a specific goal (learning the math that engineers need in order to become an engineer) or studying something that interests you.
In the end, though, you're best off either studying something to reach a specific goal (learning the math that engineers need in order to become an engineer) or studying something that interests you.
Sure, you don't run into situations requiring math. Instead existing everyday situations are perceived in new ways because you understand calculus.
Can you give an example? I can't think of any everyday situation that most people would run into where calculus comes in handy. It's definitely necessary for certain specific applications, but not ones I'd call everyday situations.
A lot of things are governed by differential equations, so understanding how they behave is helpful. Financial models, physics models, biology models commonly use them.
> Financial models, physics models, biology models commonly use them.
In what specific everyday situations would most people find these useful? It's not like it's common for people run into situations where they say "if only I could calculate the predator prey systems" or "if only I could calculate radioactive decay." I've studied these, and I don't think I've ever run into some everyday situation where I've said "Man, I'm really glad I can apply my differential equations/vector calculus/etc. here." Even in the rare situation where I want to calculate compound interest I opt to just use a interest calculator since it's quicker and less error prone than doing it by hand.
In what specific everyday situations would most people find these useful? It's not like it's common for people run into situations where they say "if only I could calculate the predator prey systems" or "if only I could calculate radioactive decay." I've studied these, and I don't think I've ever run into some everyday situation where I've said "Man, I'm really glad I can apply my differential equations/vector calculus/etc. here." Even in the rare situation where I want to calculate compound interest I opt to just use a interest calculator since it's quicker and less error prone than doing it by hand.
> I don't trust the experts, if only I could build my own disease spread model with partial vaccination - then I could compute the nash equilibrium strategy for the vaccinate-don't vaccinate game.
Epidemics, zombie invasions, zombie epidemics, vaccination, vaccination against zombie invasions.
My read on this is pretty complex. On the one hand, my verbal ability is off the charts - I never scored lower than an 800 on a PSAT or SAT. My math ability is good but not great. For some time I've felt I'd have been better served by being the worst math or CS student at my college rather than one of the best foreign language students.
The reason is, our society has a number of clear paths for people with highly developed M ability, but fewer viable paths for highly developed V ability. Basically just law school, and that isn't what it used to be. I think that's a problem for us as a society, but it's not going away soon. I'm advising my son to major in something quantitative.
That being said, the author's apparent advice not to take fl at all is insane. Especially for high school students. If you are not MIT/CalTech material, Ivies like to see foreign languages.
The reason is, our society has a number of clear paths for people with highly developed M ability, but fewer viable paths for highly developed V ability. Basically just law school, and that isn't what it used to be. I think that's a problem for us as a society, but it's not going away soon. I'm advising my son to major in something quantitative.
That being said, the author's apparent advice not to take fl at all is insane. Especially for high school students. If you are not MIT/CalTech material, Ivies like to see foreign languages.
Yeah, even for state schools there is often a foreign language requirement. For example, University of Maryland requires applicants to have taken at least 2 years of foreign language courses[1]. If you decide not to check those boxes, you’re just making the college application process unnecessarily difficult for yourself. Take 4 years of Spanish or whatever else and move on.
[1] https://admissions.umd.edu/apply/requirements/freshman
[1] https://admissions.umd.edu/apply/requirements/freshman
I feel like it's much easier to start learning Mandarin than Maths. I can't really put into words why I feel this way, given that there are great resources like Khan Academy out there. Maybe it's easier to gauge fluency in a language than it is in maths? When do you stop learning? Maybe you're proficient enough when you can order from an all-Mandarin menu? As soon as you can't read a bit on a menu, you know what you need to work on next. But what about maths? I know how to add and divide. I'm fluent at trig and pretty good at some bits of algebra. Pretty rusty in calculus and OK at stats. I'm sure having this knowledge makes parts of my job easier. But maths is such a huge and diverse field.
Not knowing what I don't know, I find it very difficult to gauge whether I'd benefit from learning more, if that makes sense.
Not knowing what I don't know, I find it very difficult to gauge whether I'd benefit from learning more, if that makes sense.
I don't get the point they're trying to make.
I think the analogy between math and a language that you can learn as "native language" is quite far-fetched and flawed, but let's accept it for the sake of argument.
Then, I'd say that in most developed societies, we already learn math as a native language since birth. Many toys for babies are focused on counting (among other skills, like recognizing colors, shapes and basic words). Parents routinely ask their kids to count things, just as they help them learn the language. Then, once you go to preschool and then school, there are always math lessons alongside the language lessons.
So in my view, what they're advocating already happens, so I'm not sure what change they're proposing.
I think the analogy between math and a language that you can learn as "native language" is quite far-fetched and flawed, but let's accept it for the sake of argument.
Then, I'd say that in most developed societies, we already learn math as a native language since birth. Many toys for babies are focused on counting (among other skills, like recognizing colors, shapes and basic words). Parents routinely ask their kids to count things, just as they help them learn the language. Then, once you go to preschool and then school, there are always math lessons alongside the language lessons.
So in my view, what they're advocating already happens, so I'm not sure what change they're proposing.
I like learning languages because I like learning. There doesn't need to be a reason. This is a very engineery perspective, I don't like it.
Actually, math is not an universal language. There are several different languages within math, see http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rosetta.pdf
Note that the Wikipedia claim about total speakers, the Wiki page notes that "Speaker totals are generally not reliable because they sum estimates from different dates and sources, usually uncited."
From my experience (and I emphasize on that) I can tell you from us (I'm from East Africa, speaking English, Swahili, French and two other natives languages) being proficient in at least English/French is an existential question. I really understand why a US citizen may think twice before starting learning a new language. For us, if you want a "normal" life, you do have to learn other 2 languages. We do not have that luxury.
The author's argument immediately fails at the fact that math papers are written in natural language and you'll have no chance of understanding the paper if you don't speak that language.
Just because I can read a math paper written in English or German I don't harbor any illusions I'll be able to understand one written in Mandarin.
On top of that there's that mathematical notation really isn't as standardized as one would hope. Neither is basic terminology (which already isn't consistent between different disciplines/schools within the same language).
So unless a Chinese mathematician deigns to translate the paper into a language I understand, I'll just be screwed.
The underlying concepts may be universal, but the language and notation of mathematics today just isn't.
Edit: For those who want to have a taste of what mathematics in a foreign language is like, have a look at this Chinese Wikipedia article on a very basic topic: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BF%9E%E7%BB%AD%E5%87%BD%E6...
Just because I can read a math paper written in English or German I don't harbor any illusions I'll be able to understand one written in Mandarin.
On top of that there's that mathematical notation really isn't as standardized as one would hope. Neither is basic terminology (which already isn't consistent between different disciplines/schools within the same language).
So unless a Chinese mathematician deigns to translate the paper into a language I understand, I'll just be screwed.
The underlying concepts may be universal, but the language and notation of mathematics today just isn't.
Edit: For those who want to have a taste of what mathematics in a foreign language is like, have a look at this Chinese Wikipedia article on a very basic topic: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BF%9E%E7%BB%AD%E5%87%BD%E6...
I collect math, machine learning, statistics, etc urls. The ones discussed on HN have the HN discussion below the article:
https://github.com/melling/MathAndScienceNotes/blob/master/m...
https://github.com/melling/MathAndScienceNotes/tree/master/s...
https://github.com/melling/MathAndScienceNotes/blob/master/m...
This recent HN was interesting, for example:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811715
https://github.com/melling/MathAndScienceNotes/blob/master/m...
https://github.com/melling/MathAndScienceNotes/tree/master/s...
https://github.com/melling/MathAndScienceNotes/blob/master/m...
This recent HN was interesting, for example:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811715
Learning other languages has absolutely improved my life and changed the way I think, just as much as learning mathematics. It has opened my eyes to the world that exists outside the anglosphere.
Just make sure that you have native speakers to talk to, the benefit of learning a language is being able to talk to people!
Just make sure that you have native speakers to talk to, the benefit of learning a language is being able to talk to people!
Why are they mutually exclusive?
If you don't know any maths there are things that are hard to describe or even conceptualise.
If you know only one language there are assumptions you make and things you don't know that you don't even know you don't know.
If you don't know any maths there are things that are hard to describe or even conceptualise.
If you know only one language there are assumptions you make and things you don't know that you don't even know you don't know.
Can't disagree more. Learning a spoken language is much more than picking-up a communication tool - it opens a world of culture and thought that is bigger than the language itself. Yes, the same can be said of mathematics, and both are as valuable.
I'm European, speak 3 languages and use math every day, professionally. I've studied, lived and worked in the US for many years and am often shocked at some of my American friends' lack of perspective on international affairs.... keep-up with the math education but don't do it at the cost of languages... you can't afford to.
I'm European, speak 3 languages and use math every day, professionally. I've studied, lived and worked in the US for many years and am often shocked at some of my American friends' lack of perspective on international affairs.... keep-up with the math education but don't do it at the cost of languages... you can't afford to.
Totally agree. A second language expands your world dramatically.
There's no shortage of Math advocates, one of you needs to put together the Math equivalent of DuoLingo. A math textbook isn't the only way to work on math daily.
[deleted]
Fun fact: more people speak English in China than in North America.
- - - -
In re: teaching math ASAP see Iconic Math http://iconicmath.com/ and (the general idea of) "Proofs without words" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_without_words
- - - -
In re: teaching math ASAP see Iconic Math http://iconicmath.com/ and (the general idea of) "Proofs without words" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_without_words
Having lived in China for several years, it's very important to stress that the average English level of those "English speakers" is lower than that of your average American toddler.
[deleted]
What you should learn depends on your interests. Curious about metallurgy? Then German holds a great reservoir of hard won knowledge. Culture, aesthetics, and hard math? There French has profound influence. And so on. Buddhist wisdom is scribed in Sanskrit, Hindi, Chinese, and many others. Extend and spread your knowledge using whatever language and idioms are most appropriate and useful.
This sounds like wonderful advice to me. If you are an English speaker, I frankly don’t see the return on the immense investment of time and energy learning a language requires unless you will eg live there or do much business there. Unfortunately for the average person I’d imagine learning math might not be extraordinarily useful either.
The author makes a good point of course.
But I'd add that, for native English speakers writing to a broad audience, they should spend a little time learning how non-native speakers use and understand the language.
A few changes in word choice, sentences structure and idioms can make informal communication significantly clearer.
But I'd add that, for native English speakers writing to a broad audience, they should spend a little time learning how non-native speakers use and understand the language.
A few changes in word choice, sentences structure and idioms can make informal communication significantly clearer.
Before one has learned a foreign language one has not a deep understanding of their first language at all.
Maybe he should try studying math in Mandarin. It doesn't have to be so zero-sum...
haha that's very optimistic! I'm thinking about getting into gymnastics and also maybe skiing, a cork 720 backflip seems like a good first step!
I like the comparison between learning the language of math and learning a foreign language. In both cases, learning the language gives you increased access to more culture, history, knowledge, and means to express yourself. This is a good way to answer "Why do need to learn math?" which people often ask me. As in "What am-I going to use this for?"
I don't like the idea of learning math INSTEAD of a foreign language, since both are meaningful and interesting for different reasons.
In writing math books I often had to come up with various analogies to try to motivate readers to invest the time---look, if you get through these hairy equations you'll have access to powerful math modelling skills and be able to read Wikipedia pages that have equations in them without going into panic. I'll add the "learn a new language for the culture/history" angle too, not sure which is more convincing...
I don't like the idea of learning math INSTEAD of a foreign language, since both are meaningful and interesting for different reasons.
In writing math books I often had to come up with various analogies to try to motivate readers to invest the time---look, if you get through these hairy equations you'll have access to powerful math modelling skills and be able to read Wikipedia pages that have equations in them without going into panic. I'll add the "learn a new language for the culture/history" angle too, not sure which is more convincing...
Languages are overrated.I was born in a country with population of only 3M people,so I had no choice but to learn English.Later on in life I also learned Russian,because I ended up living with Russians for more than a year.Yes, it's great to go out there and be able to talk to people but that's about where it ends. That's why, unless one has some useful skills(IT, engineering, plumbing,etc.), knowing languages won't take you very far.In my previous company most people spoke at least 4 languages.And what? Everybody was on crappy salaries,even though most were very well educated but very few could do anything outside linguistics sector.In business, languages help, however I'm yet to see any jobs that'd pay more just because one can speak German and Italian...
So is there a better way to learn math now? I haven’t taken a course in over a decade and would love to understand proofs. I admittedly memorized a lot to get through math during K-12 and most of Uni.
The math in high school was more relevant 50 years ago than now, though. Most students who learn calculus will never, ever, integrate a function again in their life. Most people who don’t learn statistics will get bombarded with arguments based on statistical analysis, often done sloppily but only obvious to someone with training in the subject.
So, if your choice is between calculus or Spanish, Spanish might be the better choice.
So, if your choice is between calculus or Spanish, Spanish might be the better choice.
Steven Strogatz in his book "Infinite Powers" shares the story of author Herman Wouk interviewing Richard Feynman about his role in the Manhattan Project. Feynman asked Wouk if he knew calculus. When Wouk replied, no, Feynman said "You had better learn it. It's the language God talks".
Strogatz writes, "It isn't necessary to learn how to do calculus to appreciate it, just as it isn't necessary to learn how to prepare fine cuisine to enjoy eating it." His book gives a broader view of calculus than any text--more like calculus appreciation.
> Most students who learn calculus will never, ever, integrate a function again in their life.
This is true. But will they never, ever use the concepts of slope or area under a curve? An appreciation for calculus (or mathematics in general) can enhance one's life in other ways. To know enough math to appreciate the mystery of unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics [0], is mind-expanding.
[0] https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.htm...
Strogatz writes, "It isn't necessary to learn how to do calculus to appreciate it, just as it isn't necessary to learn how to prepare fine cuisine to enjoy eating it." His book gives a broader view of calculus than any text--more like calculus appreciation.
> Most students who learn calculus will never, ever, integrate a function again in their life.
This is true. But will they never, ever use the concepts of slope or area under a curve? An appreciation for calculus (or mathematics in general) can enhance one's life in other ways. To know enough math to appreciate the mystery of unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics [0], is mind-expanding.
[0] https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.htm...
I agree, learning calculus does enhance one’s life. Statistics enhances your life even more though since you will actually use it. I use calculus sometimes at work and I use it when learning new mathematical concepts but it still doesn’t even come close to how important statistics is to me.
Sometimes it just comes down to utility. If you live in Nevada and you’re wondering whether you should learn how to drive or how to sail, pick driving.
Sometimes it just comes down to utility. If you live in Nevada and you’re wondering whether you should learn how to drive or how to sail, pick driving.
Or walk and chew gum, like the rest of the world does.
Why not both?
Seems to work for the rest of humanity.
Seems to work for the rest of humanity.
Math + Mandarin = X;
Math + English = Y;
Mandarin = 1.11;
English = 1.12;
Article Usefulness = Math(X-Y)
You need to factor in: “English is the de facto language of Business, Engineering, Science, and, most influentially, The Internet.”
Ok, but spend a little time on the Chinese internet. Sure, they use "some" obligatory English, but the dependency is likely not what many imagine it to be.
Seems a bit silly. Americans typically learn enough math for the example problems he lists by the time they graduate high school.
I don't think learning Mandarin is such a bad idea, personally.
I don't think learning Mandarin is such a bad idea, personally.
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You learn math because you want to be able to quantify scientific questions, or because you want to dig deep into quantitative logic for its own sake.
But what if you want to do something else? Such as getting to know your spouse, children or friends better. What if you simply want to make music?
I would say, then do that instead of learning math!
All this blog post highlights is that you should have a strong and clear learning goal, because if you’re learning Mandarin because it might seem useful on vacation to China, you might be spending your time inefficiently.
The idea of teaching children math as a language from day one is an interesting concept though. But even that still comes down to: start giving your kids amazing skills that you think will give them a fulfilling and good life from day one. Well yea, of course.