Flying with Miniature Horses(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Flying with Miniature Horses
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/travel/mini-horse-service-plane.html
108 comments
Or just pass another law forbidding the 'depriving [any] passengers of the flight experience that they bought and paid for'. I see no compelling reason for taxes to subsidize companies just to help them follow the law, i get no subsidies to help me not steal things or to obey traffic lights. And I'm not posting millions in profits.
There is a huge difference between laws that require you not to do something, and ones that require you to spend limited resources providing affirmative benefits to people.
No there isn’t. You can logically construct one set from the other.
If you are unable to run a business that provides equal access to the level required by regulation, then your business is unsustainable and cannot function. This is the same situation as running a business that cannot afford to provide a service while meeting environmental regulations.
If you are unable to run a business that provides equal access to the level required by regulation, then your business is unsustainable and cannot function. This is the same situation as running a business that cannot afford to provide a service while meeting environmental regulations.
From the politician's point of view there is a very important difference. If you raise taxes and then use that money to pay for something then you are responsible for a tax increase. Opposition politicians can point to your tax increase and complain that this is costing the average taxpayer $N per year.
However if you make a regulation which does the same thing then the cost does not cross the government's books, so nobody can say that you are costing anybody anything in particular. Its much better politics, regardless of the economics.
However if you make a regulation which does the same thing then the cost does not cross the government's books, so nobody can say that you are costing anybody anything in particular. Its much better politics, regardless of the economics.
By forcing airlines to allow horses, that means the airlines have to expend effort for that. That means they have to raise prices. That means all airline fliers are paying for it. I don't see a reason why all US citizens should pay for it instead of all US fliers paying for it.
As far as depriving other passengers, it's up to the airlines how to do that. They are incentivized to provide a good experience to fliers in order to keep people willing to fly with them.
As far as depriving other passengers, it's up to the airlines how to do that. They are incentivized to provide a good experience to fliers in order to keep people willing to fly with them.
The set of all US citizens, not the subset of US fliers, is the set that democratically elected the reps that enacted this law. They should be willing to pay for it.
Too many laws are enacted on the basis that they will be popular only because a majority of people will not have to pay for them and thus see no downsides.
Too many laws are enacted on the basis that they will be popular only because a majority of people will not have to pay for them and thus see no downsides.
When the government pays for things, it distorts the economics, because the true cost of that thing is being hidden from the consumers. By including the cost of enforcement in the cost of the service itself, the market can balance better.
For example, when allowing horses, that means the plane uses additional fuel. Usually the cost of the fuel is included in the ticket, so as fuel becomes scarcer, prices go up, and less people fly. But when the government starts paying for some of that fuel, it will hide that price increase from consumers, so they will fly more than they should, and use fuel faster than they should.
Also, almost 90% of Americans have flown[1], so it's not like filers are some tiny minority.
[1] http://survey.airlines.org/
For example, when allowing horses, that means the plane uses additional fuel. Usually the cost of the fuel is included in the ticket, so as fuel becomes scarcer, prices go up, and less people fly. But when the government starts paying for some of that fuel, it will hide that price increase from consumers, so they will fly more than they should, and use fuel faster than they should.
Also, almost 90% of Americans have flown[1], so it's not like filers are some tiny minority.
[1] http://survey.airlines.org/
Yes, but how else will you be able to pull out your phone and start a video call with: “I’m on an aeroplane. Look down. I’m on a horse.”
[deleted]
People are more willing to spend other peoples’ money than their own. News at 11.
There's a difference between getting help, and getting enabled.
People with mental illness often make terrible decisions, but there's a trend to say we have to tolerate these terrible decisions because that's helping them, when it might do the opposite.
OK, so service animals might be effective. But for a non-permanent disability, couldn't travelling without one be a milestone to work towards, rather than an unalienable right? Obviously it depends on individual circumstances, but who should make the call?
People with mental illness often make terrible decisions, but there's a trend to say we have to tolerate these terrible decisions because that's helping them, when it might do the opposite.
OK, so service animals might be effective. But for a non-permanent disability, couldn't travelling without one be a milestone to work towards, rather than an unalienable right? Obviously it depends on individual circumstances, but who should make the call?
Probably a doctor and not an airline should make the call? It seems like a useful principle that airlines should not be in charge of medical decisions, which would imply that airlines should never question traveling with a horse (besides checking the doctor's authorization) - if we think that someone is being overprescribed a horse, we-as-society should follow up with the prescribing doctor and perhaps medical licensing boards, but we-as-society shouldn't put indirect pressure on the doctor via the patient themselves via a flight attendant.
I think it's reasonable for a doctor to prescribe a horse, and it's also reasonable for an airline to not accommodate someone flying with a horse.
More generally, I don't think all of society needs to be forced to accommodate any possible prescription by a doctor.
More generally, I don't think all of society needs to be forced to accommodate any possible prescription by a doctor.
> I think it's reasonable for a doctor to prescribe a horse
And that's where you and I disagree. This therapy animal business seems to be exploding in popularity, and maybe there's something to it, though it seems too popular too quick to be properly vetted. But even if animals are the ultimate therapy, this idea that any and all animals should now be accepted as therapy is over the top.
And that's where you and I disagree. This therapy animal business seems to be exploding in popularity, and maybe there's something to it, though it seems too popular too quick to be properly vetted. But even if animals are the ultimate therapy, this idea that any and all animals should now be accepted as therapy is over the top.
My mom is scared of dogs, and I dislike dogs and cats due to their smell, bad owners, and possibility of being attacked by certain breeds (which may or may not be due to bad owners, but that doesn’t matter to me). The physical disability service animals, I was okay with due to it being easy to verify legitimate use and being rare enough. But this ESA nonsense is out of hand, where it’s very easy to make something up or even make yourself believe you need a pet and subject everyone else to it.
I guess my big problem is there’s no standards, and I have no security in knowing that someone sitting inches away from me or my family has an untrained pit bull that they’re claiming is an ESA, and I can’t do anything about it until after the damage is done.
I guess my big problem is there’s no standards, and I have no security in knowing that someone sitting inches away from me or my family has an untrained pit bull that they’re claiming is an ESA, and I can’t do anything about it until after the damage is done.
Sure, that's a reasonable argument, but that's different from the argument of "should we, as society, try to wean people off horses". If airlines want to discourage passengers who need horses for practical reasons / for the good of the airline, that's one thing, and we can discuss what the airline's needs are (and even whether there's a way that the airline would be happy to accommodate it, e.g. with some flights designed for pets or something, which I'm sure a lot of pet owners without medical needs would be delighted to pay for). If they want to discourage those passengers for the alleged good of the passengers, that's quite different.
I agree. I wonder if any doctor has ever been disciplined by a licensing board for his or her substantive judgment in one of these accommodation cases. (That is for an inappropriate decision rather than for some procedural lapse like not doing an examination or something.)
It's unlikely to be a goal for people with a service animal. It takes years and a lot of money to train a service animal - it's not a quick fix.
As someone over 6ft, all I would like to know is what airline has enough legroom for a horse to go in front of you.
Unless I missed something, the "completely reasonable reason" appears to be that horses live a lot longer than dogs.
They're apparently calmer, require less social contact, and cause fewer allergy problems, in addition to the lifespan benefit, which is considerable. And, as the article mentions, if you need mobility/stability assistance, a horse can be more helpful than a dog.
Really, once you learn that there people who could reasonably prefer mini-horses to dogs, the article has answered the question it sets out to.
Really, once you learn that there people who could reasonably prefer mini-horses to dogs, the article has answered the question it sets out to.
> cause fewer allergy problems
I have a very hard time believing that. Do you have a source? It's all anecdotal, but the few people I know with dog allergies, seem to be very mild cases. While horse allergies seem to be fairly common and much more severe.
I have a very hard time believing that. Do you have a source? It's all anecdotal, but the few people I know with dog allergies, seem to be very mild cases. While horse allergies seem to be fairly common and much more severe.
Allergies require exposure to the allergen, and since far more people have significant dog exposure than have significant horse exposure, dog allergies are much more common. That's why there is very little online about horse allergies; there is also very little online about panda bear allergies.
Airport officials will sometimes ask for Cali’s official “horse ID,” Ms. Ramouni said. Unaware of any organization that offers such a thing, she and a friend eventually made a card themselves.
OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards.
Cali is used to going for long stretches without urinating...
This is typical of horses, especially females like this one featured in TFA. They like to really stretch out their legs while urinating (I guess they don't like splashes?) and are only comfortable doing so in particular situations. Whereas they will defecate anywhere, so it's impressive that this animal has been trained not to do that.
OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards.
Cali is used to going for long stretches without urinating...
This is typical of horses, especially females like this one featured in TFA. They like to really stretch out their legs while urinating (I guess they don't like splashes?) and are only comfortable doing so in particular situations. Whereas they will defecate anywhere, so it's impressive that this animal has been trained not to do that.
> OK, that's awesome. We should all make our own ID cards.
If you are asking for ID even though you don't know what ID should be provided or even if any is required then FU, you get the one written in crayons.
If you are asking for ID even though you don't know what ID should be provided or even if any is required then FU, you get the one written in crayons.
Someone I know relayed a story to me once wherein, at the passport gate into England she, a Canadian citizen, was held up by the passport control agent for not having a visa document. "Where's your visa?" "I don't need a visa, I'm a Canadian citizen. Your queen is my queen." "So you don't have one?" "Yes, because I don't need one."
Fun fact: there is exactly one situation in the United States in which you are required to fly with non-TSA approved locks on your luggage. That situation is when there's a gun in your checked in bags. The easiest way to meet that requirement is with a flare gun. Some perfectly reasonable people that are concerned about theft and privacy will travel with a flare gun for no reason other than it lets them lock their luggage.
The rules around flying are weird and full of perverse incentives that are easily hacked.
The rules around flying are weird and full of perverse incentives that are easily hacked.
Flying with a declared flare gun in your checked baggage photography gear cases was a trick I heard some professional photographers use.
Reportedly, that activates some chain of custody-like procedures, including that it's unlikely to be lost, and that the case isn't opened at potentially arbitrary points of time by unknown workers in between (damage, theft).
Reportedly, that activates some chain of custody-like procedures, including that it's unlikely to be lost, and that the case isn't opened at potentially arbitrary points of time by unknown workers in between (damage, theft).
Can confirm that this works with a real firearm. You need to put non-TSA locks on the case, and it's kept in custody of the airline at baggage claim (does not go on the carousel). You must provide ID to retrieve the case.
I use a cheap 1911 frame. This is a 48.5-state solution; don't try it in Illinois or NYC.
I use a cheap 1911 frame. This is a 48.5-state solution; don't try it in Illinois or NYC.
The custody bit is inconsistent at best.
Do NOT fly into Massachusetts with a gun. To have a gun in MA you must have a MA gun license
A starter pistol with a non-bored barrel is purported to be legal in Massachusetts, so that's an option too. Just don't bring ammunition, that's a problem if it is a type usable in a regular firearm.
Mass non-residents don't need the license as long as it's unloaded and in a case.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/gun-ownership-in-massachus...
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/gun-ownership-in-massachus...
>Non-residents with a valid Massachusetts non-resident hunting license do not need a firearm license to possess or carry rifles and shotguns and ammunition during the hunting season.
>Non-residents do not need a firearms license to transport their firearms in or through the Commonwealth, provided the firearms are unloaded and enclosed in a case while traveling.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
This seems to indicate that a MA firearms license is required if
a. You are staying in MA
b. You don’t have a MA hunting license and/or it is not hunting season.
>Non-residents do not need a firearms license to transport their firearms in or through the Commonwealth, provided the firearms are unloaded and enclosed in a case while traveling.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
This seems to indicate that a MA firearms license is required if
a. You are staying in MA
b. You don’t have a MA hunting license and/or it is not hunting season.
It's worth looking up the law in question, instead of their description.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Cha...
Here the exemption is for:
> (h) Possession of rifles and shotguns and ammunition therefor by nonresidents traveling in or through the commonwealth, providing that any rifles or shotguns are unloaded and enclosed in a case;
I'd think that it would be hard to argue that "traveling in or through" doesn't include staying in some sort of accommodations during your trip.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Cha...
Here the exemption is for:
> (h) Possession of rifles and shotguns and ammunition therefor by nonresidents traveling in or through the commonwealth, providing that any rifles or shotguns are unloaded and enclosed in a case;
I'd think that it would be hard to argue that "traveling in or through" doesn't include staying in some sort of accommodations during your trip.
> Possession of rifles and shotguns
This specifically does not mention handguns. Handguns have much narrower exemptions: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Cha...
IANAL but a starter pistol with no ammo is probably ok, but hey, it is only 2 1/2 years in jail if you are convicted.
(edit - fixed typo)
This specifically does not mention handguns. Handguns have much narrower exemptions: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Cha...
IANAL but a starter pistol with no ammo is probably ok, but hey, it is only 2 1/2 years in jail if you are convicted.
(edit - fixed typo)
Ah, you’re absolutely right.
Interesting, though, that their FAQ page says “firearms” are allowed while the code only provides an exception for rifles and shotguns (excluding handguns). Seems dangerously misleading considering the penalties for violations
Interesting, though, that their FAQ page says “firearms” are allowed while the code only provides an exception for rifles and shotguns (excluding handguns). Seems dangerously misleading considering the penalties for violations
Yes... I might switch to using a Remington 870 action with barrel and magazine removed. Still reasonably compact!
Yes, there is a federal preemption law (FOPA) that permits travel through a restrictive/prohibitive state if the origin and destination permit the carrier to lawfully posses the firearm. However, meeting the FOPA criteria may be treated as an affirmative defense in some states. IANAL so YMMV.
IANAL but you should read the actual law, not a summary even when it is from the state:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Cha...
I am a Mass resident and know not to mess with Mass gun laws - they carry a minimum of 2 1/2 years in jail.
Total coincidence - MA has the lowest gun death rate at <1/3 the national average and <1/6 some of the most dangerous states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_Uni...
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Cha...
I am a Mass resident and know not to mess with Mass gun laws - they carry a minimum of 2 1/2 years in jail.
Total coincidence - MA has the lowest gun death rate at <1/3 the national average and <1/6 some of the most dangerous states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_Uni...
Yours is the wrong citation. See my other post for the correct exemption.
Boston is your big city, right? It had 56 people murdered in 2018. Here are their pictures. https://www.universalhub.com/2018/boston-murders-2018
As near as I can tell from the available pictures, the victims are largely or entirely black. They make up 23% of the city, according to wikipedia, or 159,754 people. So that is about 35 black victims per 100,000 black residents.
In 2018, Chicago is about 40 black victims per 100,000 black residents.
This is comparable to black victim rates elsewhere. I don't think that your gun rates are helping so much as the fact that you are a mostly white state without many urban centers.
Boston is your big city, right? It had 56 people murdered in 2018. Here are their pictures. https://www.universalhub.com/2018/boston-murders-2018
As near as I can tell from the available pictures, the victims are largely or entirely black. They make up 23% of the city, according to wikipedia, or 159,754 people. So that is about 35 black victims per 100,000 black residents.
In 2018, Chicago is about 40 black victims per 100,000 black residents.
This is comparable to black victim rates elsewhere. I don't think that your gun rates are helping so much as the fact that you are a mostly white state without many urban centers.
Thank you for sharing this.
Seeing the faces of the victims really hammers home the reality of murder in the United States: something that's much worse for black men (and the black community) than it is for everyone else.
Seeing the faces of the victims really hammers home the reality of murder in the United States: something that's much worse for black men (and the black community) than it is for everyone else.
asmithmd1(2)
> Total coincidence - MA has the lowest gun death rate at <1/3 the national average and <1/6 some of the most dangerous states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_Uni...
And yet Massachusetts' murder rate of 3.2/100k/yr is right about the median for the US. Who ever would have thought? (Granted, the suicide rate of 8.8/100k/yr is pretty impressive, and some of that might be assignable to their gun control efforts)
And yet Massachusetts' murder rate of 3.2/100k/yr is right about the median for the US. Who ever would have thought? (Granted, the suicide rate of 8.8/100k/yr is pretty impressive, and some of that might be assignable to their gun control efforts)
Lower availability of guns does not influence murder rates (much?).
Murder is when one human wants to kill another and that's not hard, humans are as dedicated as they are fragile.
What availability of guns influences most are homicides. Where you don't necessarily want to kill another human but you want their stuff or you want to teach them a lesson, also accidental deaths and I think suicides (probably quickness and decisiveness draws people).
Murder is when one human wants to kill another and that's not hard, humans are as dedicated as they are fragile.
What availability of guns influences most are homicides. Where you don't necessarily want to kill another human but you want their stuff or you want to teach them a lesson, also accidental deaths and I think suicides (probably quickness and decisiveness draws people).
The point was that (virtually) no one ever campaigns for gun control on the basis of reducing suicide - only murder, and often only mass shootings.
But Massachusetts is middling (20/50) on the gun murder rate ('''includes murders and willful manslaughters, but excludes "deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident" and justifiable homicides.'''). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_Uni...
Yes, the only thing the Mass laws do is stop gun deaths "caused by negligence, suicide, or accident" and justifiable homicides - self defense or police shootings
If the primary source of gun deaths is suicide/accident, does it make sense to put limits on "assault rifles"?
Do background checks help prevent suicides or accidents?
On the other hand, waiting periods, permit to purchase, etc., may be more helpful in preventing suicides (or minimizing fatal suicide attempts).
What were the statistics and trends in Massachusetts before the laws were in force?
It's important to look at the intent and effect of proposed (and on-the-books) legislation, and at the context of statistics.
Do background checks help prevent suicides or accidents?
On the other hand, waiting periods, permit to purchase, etc., may be more helpful in preventing suicides (or minimizing fatal suicide attempts).
What were the statistics and trends in Massachusetts before the laws were in force?
It's important to look at the intent and effect of proposed (and on-the-books) legislation, and at the context of statistics.
We would also need data on suicide by other means in order to make any sort of statements regarding the effect gun availability on total suicides.
I looked for it, but there are lots of confounding factors, particularly that statistics don't really distinguish between accidental poisoning/overdose and attempted suicide by poisoning/overdose.
There is a good discussion of various factors (duration of suicide crises, availability of means, opportunity to abort the attempt or be rescued, and the lethality of the mechanism).
"Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date."
"A number of studies have indicated that when lethal means are made less available or less deadly, suicide rates by that method decline, and frequently suicide rates overall decline. This has been demonstrated in a number of areas: bridge barriers, detoxification of domestic gas, pesticides, medication packaging, and others."
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
There is a good discussion of various factors (duration of suicide crises, availability of means, opportunity to abort the attempt or be rescued, and the lethality of the mechanism).
"Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date."
"A number of studies have indicated that when lethal means are made less available or less deadly, suicide rates by that method decline, and frequently suicide rates overall decline. This has been demonstrated in a number of areas: bridge barriers, detoxification of domestic gas, pesticides, medication packaging, and others."
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
Does that include a flare gun?
The very first Google hit on this says it is a poor idea.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/34042190
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/34042190
Pretty much everything in that article is the opposite of my numerous experiences. You goto ticket counter just like normal and declare the firearm, they look at it, stick a card in the outer bag and verify you have the only key. You also can travel with ammo as long as it's in 'original package'. Then after that it depends on the airport, some you just walk it over to tsa just like an oversized bag. All in all it takes about 10min extra. Very easy, never been hassled at all. Each airline has their own rules which are clearly spelled out on their websites. I've never tried sticking a bunch of camera gear in the pelican but it wouldn't be difficult, they just look in the box, at no time do they touch it so you can have whatever under it. Xray might pickup on it and they ask you to open, which is why you walk it over to them.
There's a reply to that comment that casts doubt on its accuracy. I'm not sure which is correct but felt worth pointing out.
I've traveled with a sword and tried to get a security screen but TSA wouldn't do it for me. I'm curious if a rifle bolt would be enough to get the added security.
Legally, the lower receiver of a firearm is the piece that’s subject to background checks and other firearm-related laws. Presumably that’s all that would be technically needed.
For purposes of ownership anyway, but not for purposes that the TSA likely cares about in keeping planes safe. Pretty much any recognizable gun part is going to get the gun treatment at the airport. Guarantee you couldn't just waltz through with a complete upper.
> TSA likely cares about in keeping planes safe
I chuckled.
I chuckled.
A flare gun, a burly lock, and a pelican case is a well known trio for travel for people like national geographic photographers.
$40k worth of camera optics is worth it.
$40k worth of camera optics is worth it.
I'm pretty sure they closed this loophole, and banned them altogether:
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...
Also, with regular firearms, they have to be in case specially designed for the firearm. You can't just lock it in your regular suitcase.
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...
Also, with regular firearms, they have to be in case specially designed for the firearm. You can't just lock it in your regular suitcase.
The guidelines for traveling with firearms only mention a "hard-sided container", so if your regular suitcase is sufficiently hard it should qualify. For ammunition, they do require a box specifically designed to carry it.
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunit...
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunit...
The question of whether the case or bag is secure enough will vary by the TSA inspector. I flew from Austin to SC and had no problems with the case leaving Texas, however the TSA agent on my return flight wouldn't accept it. I ended up mailing my pistol back to myself [0]
The criteria seemed to be that the case or bag can't be pried open enough to dump any of the contents out (gun, magazine, ammo, etc). Which makes sense until you realize that a thief is just going to take the entire thing and open it when they get home...
Experiments showed that even a Pelican brand case isn't sturdy enough to prevent this. The only one I've found that works are the cheap stamped steel pistol cases (with the easily picked wafer locks). You can't pry open a corner on them with just hand strength.
[0] https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-frequently-asked-quest...
The criteria seemed to be that the case or bag can't be pried open enough to dump any of the contents out (gun, magazine, ammo, etc). Which makes sense until you realize that a thief is just going to take the entire thing and open it when they get home...
Experiments showed that even a Pelican brand case isn't sturdy enough to prevent this. The only one I've found that works are the cheap stamped steel pistol cases (with the easily picked wafer locks). You can't pry open a corner on them with just hand strength.
[0] https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-frequently-asked-quest...
Yes...but. Be prepared to spend up to an hour extra at the airport to try to find the one person at the TSA who actually knows the rules and will OK everything. It took several hours for some folks to get out of McCarran (LAS) airport at DEFCON just last week.
This isn't always the case, sometimes it's only a few minutes. But it does add some "unpredictability" to air travel.
This isn't always the case, sometimes it's only a few minutes. But it does add some "unpredictability" to air travel.
How do airlines accommodate passengers who have allergies to these animals? Do they let them know before the board that there will be an animal they're allergic to on board? Do they have to wait for the next flight, or does the passenger with the animal have to wait?
This may sound dickish, but as someone who always has to pay extra for more legroom because the length of my thighs is longer than the standard seat pitch, when is being tall going to be declared a disability?
I'm pretty average height so I can't personally relate to this experience, but it does logically seem like you have a point. After all, it's not your fault you're so lanky; you were born that way (well.. you know what I mean.) Isn't that equally deserving of accommodation?
I wish whoever downvoted you could explain themselves to help me understand why they think tall people shouldn't be reasonably accommodated.
I wish whoever downvoted you could explain themselves to help me understand why they think tall people shouldn't be reasonably accommodated.
(1) Disability
The term "disability" means, with respect to an individual
(A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual;
...
(2) Major Life Activities
(A) In general
For purposes of paragraph (1), major life activities include, but are not limited to, caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, seeing, hearing, eating, sleeping, walking, standing, lifting, bending, speaking, breathing, learning, reading, concentrating, thinking, communicating, and working.
The term "disability" means, with respect to an individual
(A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual;
...
(2) Major Life Activities
(A) In general
For purposes of paragraph (1), major life activities include, but are not limited to, caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, seeing, hearing, eating, sleeping, walking, standing, lifting, bending, speaking, breathing, learning, reading, concentrating, thinking, communicating, and working.
Okay, but why are tall people not also deserving of accommodation? That's the part I'm curious about.
Disability law gives people that have been dealt a strictly shit hand by life--like eyes or legs that don't work--a bit of a less shitty day to day life.
Are all the people endlessly whining about airplane seats really going to make the case that being tall is a strictly shit hand in life? Given all the data about better pay and relationship outcomes and everything else? It's an obnoxious and the posters deserve all the downvotes they get.
Are all the people endlessly whining about airplane seats really going to make the case that being tall is a strictly shit hand in life? Given all the data about better pay and relationship outcomes and everything else? It's an obnoxious and the posters deserve all the downvotes they get.
If eating to the point of obesity and losing a foot to diabetes is worth accommodating, I don't see why having exceptionally awkwardly long legs shouldn't be accommodated either. In either case it's an unusual physical attribute that causes trouble for the afflicted, but in the later case the afflicted has no blame.
It shouldn't matter if you think tall people are lucky for being tall, or whatevver your hangup is. All that should matter is if their physical condition is causing them trouble.
It shouldn't matter if you think tall people are lucky for being tall, or whatevver your hangup is. All that should matter is if their physical condition is causing them trouble.
You can probably accommodate yourself by folding your legs up a bit. Sure that's uncomfortable, but economy-class commercial flight is uncomfortable. No one wonders why airlines charge very wide passengers for two seats. If your legs are so long that you can't fit in your seat, buy another seat or buy a first-class seat.
I think OPs point is that if you have a disability and need more room than a standard seat gives, the airline will assist you and give you a different seat.
As a tall person (I'm only 6ft though) I have no idea what the seat is going to be like until I get onboard. Some aircraft (even on the same airline and route I've had differences) have plenty of room, others have my knees squished against hard plastic for three hours, forcing even my spine to not be straight. I try to get an emergency exit row or at least an isle seat, but that's not always possible. It also usually means I need to sit separate from my family (as kids can't go in emergency exit rows).
Plus airlines don't always know or advertise which seats have more leg room.
One of the European low cost airlines charges you extra for emergency exit row seats, but in one configuration I've been on only the outer seat has extra legroom.
A few years ago I was flying with some friends on a national airline, one of whom is taller and bigger than me. At the check in desk he was assigned emergency exit row 13. It turns out the aircraft didn't have a row 13, and the only spare seats were the smallest seats in the last row.
(Also I'm my experience busses/coaches are usually much worse than aircraft regarding leg room)
As a tall person (I'm only 6ft though) I have no idea what the seat is going to be like until I get onboard. Some aircraft (even on the same airline and route I've had differences) have plenty of room, others have my knees squished against hard plastic for three hours, forcing even my spine to not be straight. I try to get an emergency exit row or at least an isle seat, but that's not always possible. It also usually means I need to sit separate from my family (as kids can't go in emergency exit rows).
Plus airlines don't always know or advertise which seats have more leg room.
One of the European low cost airlines charges you extra for emergency exit row seats, but in one configuration I've been on only the outer seat has extra legroom.
A few years ago I was flying with some friends on a national airline, one of whom is taller and bigger than me. At the check in desk he was assigned emergency exit row 13. It turns out the aircraft didn't have a row 13, and the only spare seats were the smallest seats in the last row.
(Also I'm my experience busses/coaches are usually much worse than aircraft regarding leg room)
That isn't correct. Overweight people who need two seats are typically charged for two seats or for business class.
ITT 6' has been described both as "tall" and "pretty average height". I'm also that height, and like any other arbitrary measure of humans it depends on context. Among typical commercial flyers in mainland USA or northern Europe? No, 6' is not particularly tall in that group. That is a privileged group, so tall dudes fit right in. Somehow tall dudes even felt comfortable inserting themselves into this conversation. TFA is about blind people and how they fly commercially. Whether ignoring blind people or hating on fat people, tall people haven't represented themselves well here.
ITT 6' has been described both as "tall" and "pretty average height". I'm also that height, and like any other arbitrary measure of humans it depends on context. Among typical commercial flyers in mainland USA or northern Europe? No, 6' is not particularly tall in that group. That is a privileged group, so tall dudes fit right in. Somehow tall dudes even felt comfortable inserting themselves into this conversation. TFA is about blind people and how they fly commercially. Whether ignoring blind people or hating on fat people, tall people haven't represented themselves well here.
I'm 6' and consider myself average, airline seats aren't particularly problematic for me. But there are some people who are much much taller than me, such that they legitimately don't fit in those seats. And unlike the massively obese, it's not a condition inflicted on them by over-eating..
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More info on guide horses, including advantages:
http://guide-horse.org/
http://guide-horse.org/
Flying with 2 dogs in the same row in a few weeks for the first time and I know I am going to get some stern looks from others on the plane. They have their ESA documentation and everything is set to go, we're in first class at the bulkhead (yay points), and they are extremely well behaved.
I cannot even fathom trying to get a horse onto a plane since I am already playing mental gymnastics with my two dogs.
I cannot even fathom trying to get a horse onto a plane since I am already playing mental gymnastics with my two dogs.
How do you honestly function day to day if you need to have two dogs with you at all times? Do you work from home? How can you drive without being an emotional wreck?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but I see your post and it causes my brain to short circuit. I don't want you confined to your house, but if you are so fragile psychological and emotionally that you can't function for a few hours without your two dogs at your side should you really be flying?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but I see your post and it causes my brain to short circuit. I don't want you confined to your house, but if you are so fragile psychological and emotionally that you can't function for a few hours without your two dogs at your side should you really be flying?
One is mine, one is my wife's. We both suffer from anxiety and depression.
> I'm not trying to be a dick [...] if you are so fragile psychological and emotionally that you can't function for a few hours without your two dogs at your side should you really be flying?
heh
> I'm not trying to be a dick [...] if you are so fragile psychological and emotionally that you can't function for a few hours without your two dogs at your side should you really be flying?
heh
I'm not the parent, and I'm guilty of being exasperated at people calling their purse dogs "support animals" to get them on planes, BUT...
1) The obvious answer to your first questions: lots of people do work from home, and/or work in dog-friendly locations. Also, lots of people take their dog with them on all car trips including local errands.
2) Re: "can't function for a few hours without your two dogs" -- the FLIGHT is a few hours but unless the dogs are beaming there via transporter, they still need the dogs at the destination!
1) The obvious answer to your first questions: lots of people do work from home, and/or work in dog-friendly locations. Also, lots of people take their dog with them on all car trips including local errands.
2) Re: "can't function for a few hours without your two dogs" -- the FLIGHT is a few hours but unless the dogs are beaming there via transporter, they still need the dogs at the destination!
Re 2, most airlines are completely fine with transporting your dogs, service animal or not. In a crate.
If you can afford a seat for them, it's a way better experience for the dog in coach
Not all are competent enough to get them there alive.
This sort of comment does no favors to the people who rely on ESAs. Of course every airline is completely competent at the mundane task of keeping living things alive. In fact air travel is safer than certain other forms of travel.
Also, flying is a particularly stressful experience for many people. Specially when you are afraid someone may lose your dog or leave it behind. Being without their dog for a few hours in other situations may be completely fine, though.
What are you talking about? Surely you've seen people who keep dogs as pets. They lead entirely normal lives, for the most part. And you must have also seen people who have not just one dog, but two or more, and they still have a normal life. If you understand that, is it that big of a leap to imagine that some of those people may also have $50 to certify their pets as ESAs?
> If you understand that, is it that big of a leap to imagine that some of those people may also have $50 to certify their pets as ESAs?
Except emotional support animals are more than just your average pet.
Except emotional support animals are more than just your average pet.
Nice to see NYT engaging in clickbait headlines.
I cannot even sit in a normal plane due to my height, and yet people fly with a horse???? I really want to find some way to fly with a Pygmy Hippo. Or how about a friendly Caiman?
Did the article ask and then mostly dodge the question, How do you fit a horse in front of your seat?
Did the article ask and then mostly dodge the question, How do you fit a horse in front of your seat?
It didn't dodge the question at all. There's a photo, and the article talks about the photo extensively.
"Airlines that have engaged with miniature horses before typically put Ms. Ramouni and Cali in the bulkhead row, which has more legroom and no seats in front. Throughout the flight Cali stands at Ms. Ramouni’s feet."
It didn't dodge the question at all. There's a photo, and the article talks about the photo extensively.
"Airlines that have engaged with miniature horses before typically put Ms. Ramouni and Cali in the bulkhead row, which has more legroom and no seats in front. Throughout the flight Cali stands at Ms. Ramouni’s feet."
But if that's not available? (Typically? What happens atypically?) The paragraphs after that question seemed to be mostly about making sure the horse didn't pee on anybody, not how it physically fit. Also, it looked like the horse is longer than a single seat wide. Does she always travel with a companion?
Unfortunately the times seems to have decided I'm only allowed to read this article once and now it won't load.
Unfortunately the times seems to have decided I'm only allowed to read this article once and now it won't load.
No, it spends several paragraphs on this question.
So in this case we decide that disabled people ought to be able to take their assistance animals on planes. Fine. But then we the people should be paying the airlines to carry the disabled person and their service animal without depriving other passengers of the flight experience that they bought and paid for. We've collectively decided to help and we should collectively bear the cost.