Star Citizen Alpha 3.10(robertsspaceindustries.com)
robertsspaceindustries.com
Star Citizen Alpha 3.10
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//17711-Star-Citizen-Alpha-3100
112 comments
I have strong doubts that it's actually a real scam. My impression is that the scope is just totally blown out and the devs are trying their best. I think it's a classic example of committing to something you can't reasonably ship.
I'll totally buy into some scammy behavior like ship purchases. But that's basically the only source of cash until it actually ships (lol), and we all know that big engineering teams are very expensive.
I backed SC at the smallest level way back, and I still enjoy it from time to time. It's definitely very cool and unique, the progress is just slow. They're trying to do way too much, IMO, and they don't really know how to communicate timelines well with the community. Hell, I don't know how to create estimates well.
I think if the game had been in the hands of a talented game studio, things would have gone much differently. Having to build out the studio and company along with the game is likely a big task. Processes that already exist in a studio have to be created from scratch. Plus, a studio would have a much easier time cutting the scope to meet deadlines. :P
But I could totally be convinced that it's a real scam in the future. The amount of work that has been put into it so far seems quite large by my estimation, and I doubt they are just doing that work to run away with folks' cash. 300 engineers would cost enough that I could see them being tight on cash anyways, even with the large crowdfunding efforts.
I'll totally buy into some scammy behavior like ship purchases. But that's basically the only source of cash until it actually ships (lol), and we all know that big engineering teams are very expensive.
I backed SC at the smallest level way back, and I still enjoy it from time to time. It's definitely very cool and unique, the progress is just slow. They're trying to do way too much, IMO, and they don't really know how to communicate timelines well with the community. Hell, I don't know how to create estimates well.
I think if the game had been in the hands of a talented game studio, things would have gone much differently. Having to build out the studio and company along with the game is likely a big task. Processes that already exist in a studio have to be created from scratch. Plus, a studio would have a much easier time cutting the scope to meet deadlines. :P
But I could totally be convinced that it's a real scam in the future. The amount of work that has been put into it so far seems quite large by my estimation, and I doubt they are just doing that work to run away with folks' cash. 300 engineers would cost enough that I could see them being tight on cash anyways, even with the large crowdfunding efforts.
I think the scam-ie-ness of it is more along the lines of predatory marketing.
They sell ship concepts for a lot of money. And are only now getting into the real meat-and-potatoes of the critical development. Things like server meshing, and appropriate object culling server/client side.
There are NO gameplay loops that don't involve a small variation of the following: Kill bounties / mine minerals / trade goods to earn money. Use money to buy ships. And even that is kinda bogus because your purchases may/may not persist between patches!
Any PVP is completely optional and not really a real gameplay loop.
Any group events are completely optional and not really a real gameplay loop. There are a few things you can do to speed up say mining loops by having a scout + cash maker(s).
There is ZERO logistics. There is ZERO economy (8 years in and they finally created money transfers).
Overall this is a project that has every incentive to keep developing forever and not deliver. Because of this they over-promised so so so much that it is almost impossible to meet these expectations.
Also development has been... insanely slow. Took them 7 years before they gave you a mobile respawn point on some ships. Took them 8 years to get aiming even remotely okay. Took them 8 years and NPCs still can't glitch out and stop moving/acting. 8 years later and only the latest top notch PC can even attempt to get 30fps in this game, and even then, not in most areas.
This has to be Fyre festival. The same thing happened there. "Just fund it, we'll figure it out." until... they couldn't figure it out. So they asked for more funding.
They sell ship concepts for a lot of money. And are only now getting into the real meat-and-potatoes of the critical development. Things like server meshing, and appropriate object culling server/client side.
There are NO gameplay loops that don't involve a small variation of the following: Kill bounties / mine minerals / trade goods to earn money. Use money to buy ships. And even that is kinda bogus because your purchases may/may not persist between patches!
Any PVP is completely optional and not really a real gameplay loop.
Any group events are completely optional and not really a real gameplay loop. There are a few things you can do to speed up say mining loops by having a scout + cash maker(s).
There is ZERO logistics. There is ZERO economy (8 years in and they finally created money transfers).
Overall this is a project that has every incentive to keep developing forever and not deliver. Because of this they over-promised so so so much that it is almost impossible to meet these expectations.
Also development has been... insanely slow. Took them 7 years before they gave you a mobile respawn point on some ships. Took them 8 years to get aiming even remotely okay. Took them 8 years and NPCs still can't glitch out and stop moving/acting. 8 years later and only the latest top notch PC can even attempt to get 30fps in this game, and even then, not in most areas.
This has to be Fyre festival. The same thing happened there. "Just fund it, we'll figure it out." until... they couldn't figure it out. So they asked for more funding.
I've put a lot of hours into Elite: Dangerous which arguably has many of the same critiques. I've also put a lot of hours into No Man's Sky.
I have not purchased Star Citizen but I did have a free weekend where someone who owns one of the most expensive ships in the game gave my a virtual tour of the system on their drop dead stunning space yacht that Elite could only dream about.
Atmospheric flight was a blast and the planets are gorgeous, especially compared to NMS and the lifeless husks of Elite.
The city world was a whole nother level and I actually got lost in the bustling city.
I sort of loved that we had enough time on the return jump to head down to the bar on his yacht (complete with ridiculously deeply modeled bottles behind the bar) to "have a drink" and chat while sitting and watching stars stream by like in Star Trek.
Start Citizen has a lot that is wrong with it and the business side is a nightmare. But as an avid space geek, I'll be damned if they didn't break a new barrier for immersion with me.
All I want now is a game that blends the flight and universe mechanics of Elite with the procedural generation of planets and some gameplay loops like NMS, but with the graphics and jaw droppingly beautiful graphics and immersive fine details of Start Citizen. In VR, with whatever Frankenstein of a machine could actually run it smoothly without melting.
I have not purchased Star Citizen but I did have a free weekend where someone who owns one of the most expensive ships in the game gave my a virtual tour of the system on their drop dead stunning space yacht that Elite could only dream about.
Atmospheric flight was a blast and the planets are gorgeous, especially compared to NMS and the lifeless husks of Elite.
The city world was a whole nother level and I actually got lost in the bustling city.
I sort of loved that we had enough time on the return jump to head down to the bar on his yacht (complete with ridiculously deeply modeled bottles behind the bar) to "have a drink" and chat while sitting and watching stars stream by like in Star Trek.
Start Citizen has a lot that is wrong with it and the business side is a nightmare. But as an avid space geek, I'll be damned if they didn't break a new barrier for immersion with me.
All I want now is a game that blends the flight and universe mechanics of Elite with the procedural generation of planets and some gameplay loops like NMS, but with the graphics and jaw droppingly beautiful graphics and immersive fine details of Start Citizen. In VR, with whatever Frankenstein of a machine could actually run it smoothly without melting.
They have already accepted investment. I think they will run out of money and get picked up by a publisher. The game and audience is just waiting there, publishers would be silly not to bump it over the line. I doubt it would never get released though.
According to the feature tracker mentioned elsewhere, the game is 27% complete, far from "bump it over the line".
I guess you could postpone 60% of the outstanding features, get the game released and then work on add-ons with those features.
I guess you could postpone 60% of the outstanding features, get the game released and then work on add-ons with those features.
From what I can tell that's 27% of the _game systems_. Then they have the actual rest of the game to build with all the actual content. Planets, scenarios, dialogue, story (if there is one) etc.
Oh, and also another game (Squadron 42).
Oh, and also another game (Squadron 42).
Which is frankly MIA most of the time, Squadron 42.
The game content actually seems pretty quick to produce, given that it's been highly automated. They went from next to nothing to 20+ planets/moons with a mix of procedural and hand placed locations to visit in a short time frame. The technology means the artists basically paint the planets content in real time with brushes. Then the missions/social content is also a mix of hand written and procedurally generated content, eventually backed by an economic model that fuels the missions and NPC behavior. This all makes sense because it's an infinite open world, not a story game, but so far it plays pretty well.
The "hero" landing zones seem to take the longest. My guess is they will launch with only a handful of the star systems and build from there.
The game content actually seems pretty quick to produce, given that it's been highly automated. They went from next to nothing to 20+ planets/moons with a mix of procedural and hand placed locations to visit in a short time frame. The technology means the artists basically paint the planets content in real time with brushes. Then the missions/social content is also a mix of hand written and procedurally generated content, eventually backed by an economic model that fuels the missions and NPC behavior. This all makes sense because it's an infinite open world, not a story game, but so far it plays pretty well.
The "hero" landing zones seem to take the longest. My guess is they will launch with only a handful of the star systems and build from there.
That's kind of what No Man's Sky did, isn't it?
And apart from the initial backlash, it seems to be doing quite fine now, from what I hear.
And apart from the initial backlash, it seems to be doing quite fine now, from what I hear.
I don't think it's a good measure of man hours left though, given how turbulent the development has been I think you could throw away the first four years. Often not mentioned is the fact that they had to build out three AAA studios from nothing before getting meaningful progress underway, and S42 has been entirely scrapped and started again at least once.
I think they have a much clearer idea of how to finish the project now, and it's just taking the time execute it. Four year ago I honestly doubt they had it under control, and it's just lucky they had money beyond their wildest expectations coming through the door, which gave them the opportunity to fail enough times to begin to succeed.
I think they have a much clearer idea of how to finish the project now, and it's just taking the time execute it. Four year ago I honestly doubt they had it under control, and it's just lucky they had money beyond their wildest expectations coming through the door, which gave them the opportunity to fail enough times to begin to succeed.
I'm not convinced. Look at the most recent patch notes. It's ridiculous to be working on fluff like this when they don't have the core gameplay mechanics figured out (and this is just the fluff that they've actually completed):
- Bartenders will be seen keeping their work environment tidy by wiping down counters, disposing bottles, and polishing glasses, and chatting with patrons dynamically.
- Action that lets the player wipe their visor clear when it has become too obstructed by snow/rain/moisture. This action is available through the default keybind of LShift+Z or through the Inner Thought menu.
- We are introducing a new mechanic to planets that causes the temperature to rise and fall with the day and night cycle. This means that planets should be warmer during the day and cooler during the night.
Meanwhile, players still fall through the floors of ships, experience disconnects every 10 min, and PvP is an unplayable lag-fest. At least bartenders will now wipe down the counter after a player falls though it.
- Bartenders will be seen keeping their work environment tidy by wiping down counters, disposing bottles, and polishing glasses, and chatting with patrons dynamically.
- Action that lets the player wipe their visor clear when it has become too obstructed by snow/rain/moisture. This action is available through the default keybind of LShift+Z or through the Inner Thought menu.
- We are introducing a new mechanic to planets that causes the temperature to rise and fall with the day and night cycle. This means that planets should be warmer during the day and cooler during the night.
Meanwhile, players still fall through the floors of ships, experience disconnects every 10 min, and PvP is an unplayable lag-fest. At least bartenders will now wipe down the counter after a player falls though it.
I'm also in agreeance in a way but I think you're missing some of the forest for the trees. It ultimately doesn't matter what order things get done in for the final release, it only matters because the game is in open development, something that also slows development down a whole lot itself. So we don't get to have our cake and eat it. The reason these things are prioritized now are because people won't shut the hell up about the bartender, and the visor is game breaking because you can't see anything after it ices up.
As well, there are three entire studios working on this project, they can do more than one thing at once. Working on NPC interaction does not stop the whole show until it's done.
I'm in agreeance because part of me wishes they'd stop fussing with the open development and just finish the game. But that's not fair or realistic.
As well, there are three entire studios working on this project, they can do more than one thing at once. Working on NPC interaction does not stop the whole show until it's done.
I'm in agreeance because part of me wishes they'd stop fussing with the open development and just finish the game. But that's not fair or realistic.
The product and dev teams are missing the forest for the trees. Ice on the visor should not have been implemented in the first place. Why would they think it ok to implement an iced up visor with no way to clear it?
It seems to be evidence that they are not even thinking a single feature through.
It seems to be evidence that they are not even thinking a single feature through.
You make a good point. Assuming you are correct on the scope creep issues, ironically if they actually were a scam and instead of building out an entirely new studio, hiring hundreds of people (which is what leads to so many delays and complications) if they just funneled the money out and hired a small team of developers to perpetuate the scam they probably would actually have more concrete Development done.
I don't think the ship purchases are scammy. If I tell you we have little plastic ships for sale, you buy a little plastic ship and you actually receive a little plastic ship, all parties have performed as agreed, that is not a scam.
>I think it's a classic example of committing to something you can't reasonably ship.
That sounds like a scam.
That sounds like a scam.
the problem they were running into was that they got to much money early on. that distorted their vision of what's possible and instead of keeping it realistic, they shot for the moon.
If it's a scam it's the most poorly executed scam I have encountered. They have hundreds of employees all working on two concurrent games, which currently releases regular builds. Is that not what people backed for? Not only that but it's truly a better space sim than most even in its Alpha form.
I have gotten hours of fun and atmospheric gameplay out of the scam to date and every quarter I get more to play with. Suits me fine.
The situation is far, far more easily explained by an intense project management incompetence and a vastly expanding scope.
My biggest fear is that they can't deliver on some of their technically challenging goals before running out of money due to wasteful project management, but so far they have executed all the big tech pillars.
I have gotten hours of fun and atmospheric gameplay out of the scam to date and every quarter I get more to play with. Suits me fine.
The situation is far, far more easily explained by an intense project management incompetence and a vastly expanding scope.
My biggest fear is that they can't deliver on some of their technically challenging goals before running out of money due to wasteful project management, but so far they have executed all the big tech pillars.
Using Derek Smart of all people as a source doesn't help. Guy is bitter, jealous and has a rather long history of crazy and putting out unfinished, mediocre games ever since BC3K.
Just look at the latest offering (removed from steam by the looks of it) that was a $99 early access thing started around 2012 I think: http://lodgame.com with a last update 2 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Smart
Just look at the latest offering (removed from steam by the looks of it) that was a $99 early access thing started around 2012 I think: http://lodgame.com with a last update 2 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Smart
To be fair, they disabled the Steam store page when the game moved to closed Beta because they are porting it.
http://lodgame.com/news/16-04-29-01/
http://lodgame.com/16-11-01-state-of-play/
The Steam page is still over here.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/266620/allnews/
You may not like him or his games, but at least he's still making games and he has people buying them. So I don't quite know why you have a problem with that when he has made so many games for a very long time now.
As to Star Citizen, well he has been right so far hasn't he? Didn't he say five years ago in July 2015 (I don't have the blog link, but go to his website at www.dereksmart.com) said the game could never be made? At the time they had raised about $85 million. It's not over $300 million and there is still no game. Even with almost $100m in additional investor money.
http://lodgame.com/news/16-04-29-01/
http://lodgame.com/16-11-01-state-of-play/
The Steam page is still over here.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/266620/allnews/
You may not like him or his games, but at least he's still making games and he has people buying them. So I don't quite know why you have a problem with that when he has made so many games for a very long time now.
As to Star Citizen, well he has been right so far hasn't he? Didn't he say five years ago in July 2015 (I don't have the blog link, but go to his website at www.dereksmart.com) said the game could never be made? At the time they had raised about $85 million. It's not over $300 million and there is still no game. Even with almost $100m in additional investor money.
> To be fair, they disabled the Steam store page when the game moved to closed Beta because they are porting it.
Thanks, didn't know that. However this was 4 years ago based on those blog posts. If we are considering games over-running and not deliverying then I think Derek Smart and LoD are in a very brittle glass house here.
> You may not like him or his games, but at least he's still making games and he has people buying them. So I don't quite know why you have a problem with that when he has made so many games for a very long time now.
You can see a list of the games made here: https://www.metacritic.com/company/3000ad-inc & https://www.metacritic.com/company/quest-online-inc
You cannot help but notice that none of them are well recieved (with only BC Millenium approaching a rasonable score) and most of them are iterations on a similar/ same idea. This, to me, reduces his authority in regards to game development and how it should be done, to basically 0.
> Didn't he say five years ago in July 2015 (I don't have the blog link, but go to his website at www.dereksmart.com) said the game could never be made? > It's not over $300 million and there is still no game. Even with almost $100m in additional investor money.
We still don't know if it will be made or not, work is ongoing, dev is happening and patches are being released. If the makers of Star Citizen go bankcrupt without the game being made then at that point he will be correct.
What we do know is that Star Citizen has a huge scope (And to be fair, it does sound like a lot of that scope is Chris Roberts brand scope creep) and lots of technical challenges, it could (probably will) take 10+ years go make.
Basically my point is that Derek Smart is infamous in gaming circles and, given his history and behaviour, I am shocked anyone would consider him an authoritative, reliable, even vaguely unbiased source.
Thanks, didn't know that. However this was 4 years ago based on those blog posts. If we are considering games over-running and not deliverying then I think Derek Smart and LoD are in a very brittle glass house here.
> You may not like him or his games, but at least he's still making games and he has people buying them. So I don't quite know why you have a problem with that when he has made so many games for a very long time now.
You can see a list of the games made here: https://www.metacritic.com/company/3000ad-inc & https://www.metacritic.com/company/quest-online-inc
You cannot help but notice that none of them are well recieved (with only BC Millenium approaching a rasonable score) and most of them are iterations on a similar/ same idea. This, to me, reduces his authority in regards to game development and how it should be done, to basically 0.
> Didn't he say five years ago in July 2015 (I don't have the blog link, but go to his website at www.dereksmart.com) said the game could never be made? > It's not over $300 million and there is still no game. Even with almost $100m in additional investor money.
We still don't know if it will be made or not, work is ongoing, dev is happening and patches are being released. If the makers of Star Citizen go bankcrupt without the game being made then at that point he will be correct.
What we do know is that Star Citizen has a huge scope (And to be fair, it does sound like a lot of that scope is Chris Roberts brand scope creep) and lots of technical challenges, it could (probably will) take 10+ years go make.
Basically my point is that Derek Smart is infamous in gaming circles and, given his history and behaviour, I am shocked anyone would consider him an authoritative, reliable, even vaguely unbiased source.
I remember Derek Smart from my USENET days at the time of the BC3K fiasco.
I would definitely take his claims with some grains of salt. That said, Derek calling it a scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.
I would definitely take his claims with some grains of salt. That said, Derek calling it a scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.
> That said, Derek calling it a scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.
Agreed, but neither does it make it a scam. Any input he has on the subject is compromised and basically meaningless as evidence one way or the other. So we really should avoid citing him.
Agreed, but neither does it make it a scam. Any input he has on the subject is compromised and basically meaningless as evidence one way or the other. So we really should avoid citing him.
How is that? Everyone who isn't invested in the project is calling it a scam. Heck, even Forbes had a lengthy article about that a few months ago.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-...
So you're saying because it's still in dev and still raising money, so it's not a scam?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-...
So you're saying because it's still in dev and still raising money, so it's not a scam?
> So you're saying because it's still in dev and still raising money, so it's not a scam?
At no point have I weighed in on if it is a scam or not. All I am saying is that citing Derek Smart as an authority on the matter is not really a good idea either way. He is hugely biased and is basically praying it fails.
Citing other, probably less biased sources? Great, go ahead.
At no point have I weighed in on if it is a scam or not. All I am saying is that citing Derek Smart as an authority on the matter is not really a good idea either way. He is hugely biased and is basically praying it fails.
Citing other, probably less biased sources? Great, go ahead.
The problem these guys seem to have is that it was him who first blew the whistle. So they their dislike of him as an excuse.
I put $100 on it years ago, back when they were pushing the single player campaign. All I was hoping for was a spiritual successor to Freelancer, but I have long since given up hope of ever getting anything.
These days I check in on the project about once or twice a year and really no significant progress ever seems to have happened.
I don't know if it was always a scam, but it certainly feels like it has been for the last few years.
I don't know if it was always a scam, but it certainly feels like it has been for the last few years.
I followed a lot of Freelancer hype and some of the over-promise/under-delivery I experienced of Freelancer was exactly why I didn't put early money into Star Citizen.
Though my rule of thumb for Kickstarter projects is "get my money's worth from the entertainment value of development updates" and by those heuristics Star Citizen seems a great value for the money, and quite successful.
Though my rule of thumb for Kickstarter projects is "get my money's worth from the entertainment value of development updates" and by those heuristics Star Citizen seems a great value for the money, and quite successful.
Interesting, I only learned about Freelancer a year after release and never knew about the promises made during development.
My general rule for Kickstarter is don’t back software, I am just not good at estimating the likelihood of delivery with software. It’s a rule that I have only broken twice (font awesome and star citizen). In total I have backed 24 projects and Star Citizen is the only one not delivered.
My general rule for Kickstarter is don’t back software, I am just not good at estimating the likelihood of delivery with software. It’s a rule that I have only broken twice (font awesome and star citizen). In total I have backed 24 projects and Star Citizen is the only one not delivered.
Yeah, it's primarily software projects where I developed my risk heuristic of "will backer updates and development logs be amusing enough, whether or not anything is delivered" and for videogames the subheuristic of "is the value of the soundtrack worth whatever state the game is in at release". A lot of KS games I have backed for their soundtracks and anything about playing the game itself has been a welcome surprise, usually. Most games on KS you have a good idea of who the composer will be and the likelihood of delivery of a strong product from that composer, no matter whatever else with the game.
I've actually think I had more projects not deliver that weren't software, though, than software projects. At some I should review the statistics. Under the "did the backer updates entertain" heuristic though, I don't count any real losses.
I've actually think I had more projects not deliver that weren't software, though, than software projects. At some I should review the statistics. Under the "did the backer updates entertain" heuristic though, I don't count any real losses.
I've had people tell me with a straight face "I've spent $4,000 on it and have loved it the whole time." It really is a next-level addiction.
That's about $48 per month over seven years, which is not completely outrageous.
Worse yet, they spent $4,000 on a game that isn't released.
Hmm I just had a quick look st the 0th link and a lot of these yellow items seem to be done or in alpha stage. E.g. mining, unrestricted view distance and a lot more. Outdated data? Bias? Or am I getting something wrong?
I know this has been discussed a million times but seems the consensus is that Chris is actively trying to scam people and not just biting off more than he can chew, running into massive scope creep, and being incompetent?
I'm very peripherally following this story, mainly because it is the Duke Nukem Forever of this age, but my take on this is that after this much time and money how could he not have figured it out?
He's making vastly more money NOT shipping a product than he would have actually completing the the thing, it actually would make a great biz school study. On the scale of tech industry scams, it's also been overshadowed by the many VC busts that delivered even less and pulled in even more funding (looking at you, Magic Leap).
He's making vastly more money NOT shipping a product than he would have actually completing the the thing, it actually would make a great biz school study. On the scale of tech industry scams, it's also been overshadowed by the many VC busts that delivered even less and pulled in even more funding (looking at you, Magic Leap).
But it has shipped product? This is release notes from a playable build that players are actually playing. It's nothing like Duke Nukem Forever that people are jockeying up only for the latest screenshots, it has a live community of sorts already. Sure, it's not complete, but in the "continuously deployed living game model" and "early access game model" we're starting to see a an even more huge variety in what "complete" even means than ever before.
Thanks for the links. At this point I almost feel like this scam needs serious investigative journalism (wish we could interest a Matt Taibbi on this matter the same way he took on 2008 financial scams). This could be gaming’s Theranos.
There was a conversation a couple of years ago where many people who had invested in Star Citizen, due to so many delays are now were in different stages of their lives where they would be unwilling to now play the game.
I have never seen so much hype in a game that has yet to come to fruition for so long.
I have never seen so much hype in a game that has yet to come to fruition for so long.
Speaking of pre-release hype for over-promised scope,
Internet Historian's "The Engoodening of No Man's Sky" is surprisingly a well told, heart-warming (albeit quite long) video telling the story of No Man's Sky, how it got so hyped, and the good-faith steps the developers took to do their best to make good on their promises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5BJVO3PDeQ
Internet Historian's "The Engoodening of No Man's Sky" is surprisingly a well told, heart-warming (albeit quite long) video telling the story of No Man's Sky, how it got so hyped, and the good-faith steps the developers took to do their best to make good on their promises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5BJVO3PDeQ
For those that dismissed NMS due to the launch fiasco and never looked at it again, it’s now an incredible game. If they’d launched it then in the state it’s in now, it would probably have been a colossal hit and gone down as one of the best space survival/exploration games ever made. For me personally it’s easily top 5, and space survival is the primary genre I play almost every day.
Also, playing it on PSVR is incredible. No cut-down “VR Experience”, it’s the full game in VR. Doing VR dog fights in an asteroid belt against waves of fighters, then transitioning through the atmosphere as the fight follows you down to ground level is an awesome experience.
Also, playing it on PSVR is incredible. No cut-down “VR Experience”, it’s the full game in VR. Doing VR dog fights in an asteroid belt against waves of fighters, then transitioning through the atmosphere as the fight follows you down to ground level is an awesome experience.
There's no doubt that the devs turned No Man's Sky into a good game, well-worth the asking price. There's little doubt that Sony and unexpected hype were the driving forces behind the over-promising and under-delivering. God help me though, I just can't let it go. I cannot let go that Murray apologizes for literally everything except what he actually did wrong. He's sorry for getting ahead of himself, he's sorry for believing his own hype, he's sorry for letting Sony push the studio too hard. What he hasn't said, in the hours upon hours of interviews he's done since release, is apologize for looking us in the eye and telling us things he knew weren't true. Not once has he apologized for the moral failure of making the conscious choice to lie to us. And I looked, boy did I look, because I wanted to believe that he was sorry for that. But he isn't.
So I encourage people to play No Man's Sky. It's a good game. But I will never, ever give Sean Murray my money again.
So I encourage people to play No Man's Sky. It's a good game. But I will never, ever give Sean Murray my money again.
You have put words into his mouth I think, though it sounds as though you have looked harder than me. I can imagine a version where he truly believed the features he said would be in the game would make it in time for launch if only he tried hard enough. Instead of lieing, what he did was fail to deliver. The difference is intention and I personally think it matters more than how things unfold in most circumstances.
He said the game had multiplayer when it not only had no netcode of any kind but none was being worked on. That is a lie.
Their advertising materials including their post-launch Steam page featured large-scale space battles, rivers, formation flying with wingmen, etc were so egregiously false they triggered an investigation by the UK’s Advertising Standards Authority.
Their advertising materials including their post-launch Steam page featured large-scale space battles, rivers, formation flying with wingmen, etc were so egregiously false they triggered an investigation by the UK’s Advertising Standards Authority.
> it’s now an incredible game.
No, the core gameplay is the same, it's incredibly shallow, even by survival standards. I understand some people love busy work, but let's not pretend they did something incredible. They barely fulfilled their original promises (multi-player). Murray still needs to apologize publicly for his lies on TV though.
No, the core gameplay is the same, it's incredibly shallow, even by survival standards. I understand some people love busy work, but let's not pretend they did something incredible. They barely fulfilled their original promises (multi-player). Murray still needs to apologize publicly for his lies on TV though.
Completely agree. I have played NMS on launch day. Played everything it had to offer. Even went through the grind and flew to the middle of the galaxy.
Biggest disappointment in gaming I ever had.
Recently played it again. Has it more content? Sure. Has it multiplayer? Well.. I guess you can see each other, but it's a terrible experience in so many ways. Has it most of the features promised to be in the game even before it launched? Not.. even.. close. It might be an "okay" or for some people even "good" game, but compared to what has been promised, it would still deserve the steam rating of "mostly negative"
Biggest disappointment in gaming I ever had.
Recently played it again. Has it more content? Sure. Has it multiplayer? Well.. I guess you can see each other, but it's a terrible experience in so many ways. Has it most of the features promised to be in the game even before it launched? Not.. even.. close. It might be an "okay" or for some people even "good" game, but compared to what has been promised, it would still deserve the steam rating of "mostly negative"
Aye this was my experience too. Played it a bunch when I was pet-sitting for friends and my amigo was cool w/ me using his gaming PC & Steam account.
It was pretty cool for the first 4 hours, but got repetitive fairly quickly.
Caveat: I'm not really into the big open survival games anyway; Subnautica was alright, but Fallout 4 and Rust (the game) put me to sleep.
I'm still waiting for something on par with Freespace or the old Playstation classic Colony Wars (1 & 2).
It was pretty cool for the first 4 hours, but got repetitive fairly quickly.
Caveat: I'm not really into the big open survival games anyway; Subnautica was alright, but Fallout 4 and Rust (the game) put me to sleep.
I'm still waiting for something on par with Freespace or the old Playstation classic Colony Wars (1 & 2).
What other space survival games do you play? Have you ever tried subnautica?
I've been playing it since it came on Game Pass. It's very enjoyable if you want some unstructured noodling around in space.
I certainly saw the hype for no man's sky and perhaps they released the game a little earlier than they should've, given the scope that they claimed.
But hey, at least the rubber hit the road when the game was released.
But hey, at least the rubber hit the road when the game was released.
I have a $60 pledge from 2014. I install once or twice a year and spend about 2-3 weeks just sucked into it. Bugs and all, its fun.
I have other games I spent $60+ on and maybe got about a week of entertainment from.
I have other games I spent $60+ on and maybe got about a week of entertainment from.
See the wonderful Sunk Cost Galaxy: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7SIP0NDfM2yyHKfRmCAo...
I really loved Eve Online but just felt like I came way too late too it. I was hoping Star Citizen would be my Eve do over.
Twice a year I install SC. The mechanics are confusing, some places too big to get around, and constant lost connections, an issue I’ve never had. I really want this to be the MMO I get in on the ground floor of, but I’m losing interest.
Also, when they sell ships for real money, insurance should be permanent. I refuse to buy any new ships beyond the starters until they figure this out.
Twice a year I install SC. The mechanics are confusing, some places too big to get around, and constant lost connections, an issue I’ve never had. I really want this to be the MMO I get in on the ground floor of, but I’m losing interest.
Also, when they sell ships for real money, insurance should be permanent. I refuse to buy any new ships beyond the starters until they figure this out.
They made the mistake of advertising LTI (life time insurance) as an exclusive feature for early backers. They had some events with LTI afterwards, but it is always combined with an outcry of some early backers that they should be the only ones with LTI, because that is their reward for backing early.
Personally I think LTI should not have been offered at all, since it could potentially break the game if offered on expensive Ships that people will then use as suicide bombers without consequence, but that is a different issue.
Personally I think LTI should not have been offered at all, since it could potentially break the game if offered on expensive Ships that people will then use as suicide bombers without consequence, but that is a different issue.
Did Elon Musk make an electric vehicle and a reusable space rocket in the same time frame? Did we get to space faster than building a video game about space?
Yes,
SpaceX founded in 2002 and first reached orbit in 2008, so 6 years.
Tesla founded in 2003 and first deliveries was 2012, so 9 years.
Development of Star Citizen began in 2010 and it's still not even in beta.
SpaceX founded in 2002 and first reached orbit in 2008, so 6 years.
Tesla founded in 2003 and first deliveries was 2012, so 9 years.
Development of Star Citizen began in 2010 and it's still not even in beta.
Warframe is not much older and that game is actually suffering from feature bloat where it takes new players around 300 hours to even scrape the surface of the game.
Warframe is by far not doing anything as complex as SC. And most of the bloat is content, rather than actual systems IME.
I've not tracked this project since its huge Kickstarter 7 years ago, it's just now reaching an Alpha state? Did the dev bite off more than they can chew?
The designer (Chris Roberts) landed way too much money, and used it to justify a seemingly unbounded project scope.
As one might imagine, an unbounded project takes infinite time to deliver.
And they seem to be keeping to that schedule.
tl;dr - Don't give artists unlimited time and budget. Bad things happen without constraints.
As one might imagine, an unbounded project takes infinite time to deliver.
And they seem to be keeping to that schedule.
tl;dr - Don't give artists unlimited time and budget. Bad things happen without constraints.
> The designer (Chris Roberts) landed way too much money
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
Currently at ~300 MILLION dollars? imagine if this game broke the 1 Billion $ barrier in funding.... that would be insane!
At this point its almost a "meme" to donate to this project. Like rich crazies on wsb's throwing money around, this projects donation button, probably hits the dopamine receptors too
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
Currently at ~300 MILLION dollars? imagine if this game broke the 1 Billion $ barrier in funding.... that would be insane!
At this point its almost a "meme" to donate to this project. Like rich crazies on wsb's throwing money around, this projects donation button, probably hits the dopamine receptors too
>Currently at ~300 MILLION dollars?
But that's not so much for such a game, for comparison:
"Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" - $200 million
"Grand Theft Auto V" - $137.5 million to $265 million
"Destiny" - $500 million
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-expensive-video-gam...
But that's not so much for such a game, for comparison:
"Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" - $200 million
"Grand Theft Auto V" - $137.5 million to $265 million
"Destiny" - $500 million
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-expensive-video-gam...
Most of those include marketing too. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_g... Star Citizen has the highest development cost.
It is also two games, not one. Squadron 42 is being developed separately and will release separately to Star Citizen.
They also had a failed attempt at Squadron42 developed by a partner agency that was thrown away.
They also had a failed attempt at Squadron42 developed by a partner agency that was thrown away.
I would imagine that any multi-hundred-million project has had unproductive branches, pivots and starts. Star Citizens has been been more public, so it's harder to compare, but I don't think many of the others on the list had a straight path to what was released.
Star Wars: The Old Republic 200
Star Citizen 215+
But again if you compare SC to SW.....
Star Citizen 215+
But again if you compare SC to SW.....
> But again if you compare SC to SW.....
They are both pretty much failures?
Expect only one of them took money from customers before having anything to show for it.
They are both pretty much failures?
Expect only one of them took money from customers before having anything to show for it.
[deleted]
> rich crazies on wsb's
Could someone explain this, please? Is that wall street bets or something different?
Could someone explain this, please? Is that wall street bets or something different?
The DID stop adding stretch goals/scope creep.
But it already went way too far in scope before they stopped scope creeping.
Not a scam, just bad planning IMO.
But it already went way too far in scope before they stopped scope creeping.
Not a scam, just bad planning IMO.
I only tangentially follow the news (original backer for the $35-whatever-tier), but last I checked, there was a reality check ~1 year ago.
They actually hired and empowered a PM to ride herd over the project (including Chris Roberts), and that's helped with forward progress.
Previously, it seemed there was a lot of unnecessary technical churn for artistic reasons. E.g. the "We can make this thing 5% better, but it will take a 50% increase in time because we'll have to rewrite a lot of code" request.
They actually hired and empowered a PM to ride herd over the project (including Chris Roberts), and that's helped with forward progress.
Previously, it seemed there was a lot of unnecessary technical churn for artistic reasons. E.g. the "We can make this thing 5% better, but it will take a 50% increase in time because we'll have to rewrite a lot of code" request.
Is there an article on this?
> The DID stop adding stretch goals/scope creep.
Probably because it drew major criticism and they simply found out people would throw even more money at them if they simply kept "releasing" new ships (or rather their concept art).
The new ships/concept art I can kinda understand as the artists basically need to wait for the engine most of the time.
Kinda extreme but still not a scam IMO.
Kinda extreme but still not a scam IMO.
It still feels fairly pyramid-schemey. "Purchase now, with expectation of return if others purchase in the future"
I think it's an unfair comparison only because they make it clear that a "pledge" is to support development of the game. Like getting a keychain from a patreon artist.
But it's ultimately unprecedented, and we are all learning as we go. I doubt there will be a crowd funded game like this again for a while.
But it's ultimately unprecedented, and we are all learning as we go. I doubt there will be a crowd funded game like this again for a while.
AFAIK they actually stated that they could complete it without any more funding.
Yes, I just re-installed it yesterday to try it out. The scope is amazing, super complex systems planets you can land on, cities with subway systems and districts.
Problem is there are still so many bugs that it is completely unplayable. Every time I've given it a chance over the last 7 years it's been the same story. As much as it pains me to admin it, it is likely they will run out of money before they can achieve stability.
Problem is there are still so many bugs that it is completely unplayable. Every time I've given it a chance over the last 7 years it's been the same story. As much as it pains me to admin it, it is likely they will run out of money before they can achieve stability.
It seems so. I get their emails on a regular basis and I'm just no longer interested. When I bought in at over $100 I was hesitant because of the expected 2-3 year wait for release but I liked their goal. 7 years later and it now just feels like vaporware. I know they've released playable content, but it was nowhere near what was promised and now I've just lost interest.
They bit off more than they can chew and then they hired a team of biters to bite off even more. Only this year are we seeing a reasonable pace of development and a lockdown of some core features, but there is more scope creep in this bad boy yet!
Also it's a bit of a misunderstanding with the use of Alpha, it has been in Alpha for years now. It is a perpetual alpha, more like a WIP not an initial release of a full game.
Also it's a bit of a misunderstanding with the use of Alpha, it has been in Alpha for years now. It is a perpetual alpha, more like a WIP not an initial release of a full game.
It's been in playable alpha for many years. It isn't "just now" reaching alpha.
I would vehemently disagree. I would say it has been a testable alpha for several years. This is still not really a game you can play, more of a series of functional prototypes or demos of specific content.
What is out today would have been really promising in August of 2013.
What is out today would have been really promising in August of 2013.
Ok, so define "play" because I've "played" this game a lot, by my definition.
I make no claim that it's done, mind you. Only that it is playable, and that it is a game.
I make no claim that it's done, mind you. Only that it is playable, and that it is a game.
I'm an early backer of the game ($35) and give it a try once per year or so. This update (3.10) has some long overdue changes to the flight model which sound nice.
That said their roadmap is a joke - it doesn't even have the non-alpha phase on it.
It's painfully obvious now that as long as the developers remain in this early development phase, they are able to raise large amounts of money through the sale of virtual spaceships. As soon as there is a real game to play, this well will likely dry up. Will there be other source of capital? Probably, but they may not be as rich.
That said their roadmap is a joke - it doesn't even have the non-alpha phase on it.
It's painfully obvious now that as long as the developers remain in this early development phase, they are able to raise large amounts of money through the sale of virtual spaceships. As soon as there is a real game to play, this well will likely dry up. Will there be other source of capital? Probably, but they may not be as rich.
I'm not a backer, just a curious gamer.
My perspective is that they're losing too much momentum, and looks like the game (if ever will have a full release), will be for a niche of the niche that started following the project.
I mean, how will they even market this among triple A titles budgets? They can't even take the ride for the "new space age" hype from media entertainment/tech achievements.
Part of the strength of this type of "business model" is precisely the backing of a community that want things to happen... but like you said, they're stretching it beyond what's reasonable.
I can only assume that with this development budget - which is in the AAA level - they must need AAA sales level, right? Or are they marking up this game for 200 USD annual subscriptions (assuming is 10x20 USD (avg season pass for AAA gamees?? no idea)?
My perspective is that they're losing too much momentum, and looks like the game (if ever will have a full release), will be for a niche of the niche that started following the project.
I mean, how will they even market this among triple A titles budgets? They can't even take the ride for the "new space age" hype from media entertainment/tech achievements.
Part of the strength of this type of "business model" is precisely the backing of a community that want things to happen... but like you said, they're stretching it beyond what's reasonable.
I can only assume that with this development budget - which is in the AAA level - they must need AAA sales level, right? Or are they marking up this game for 200 USD annual subscriptions (assuming is 10x20 USD (avg season pass for AAA gamees?? no idea)?
They don't need to make their money back because they never invested any, people have already bought the game. The employees are paid, CR has taken his salary. Mission accomplished. It's more nuanced than that, but it is definitely not a traditional invest > produce > reward cycle. It was more like reward > produce > reward/debt, remains to be seen.
The long term goal though is to sell in game currency, and it's that simple I think. I imagine we will see ship sales continue after launch, but you will instead have people paying for in game currency and buying the ships in game. While you could grind for them in game, many people will just buy the currency to save time.
The long term goal though is to sell in game currency, and it's that simple I think. I imagine we will see ship sales continue after launch, but you will instead have people paying for in game currency and buying the ships in game. While you could grind for them in game, many people will just buy the currency to save time.
If the game were to be released (and received well), it would generate a lot of new sales. There are a lot of people who don't preorder.
If we are too old, we can watch our kids play this game... eventually.
The old joke now days is you’ll have to be a ‘Senior Star Citizen’ to play the game.
Does backing the game for 10 years grand you permanent residency as a Sentior Star Citizen?
Reminds me of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser_3000AD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser_3000AD
You would be highly amused to know that the game's creator, Derek Smart, has written extensively against Star Citizen:
http://dereksmart.com/2018/11/star-citizen-year-six/
A con man knows better than anyone how to spot a fellow con man, as they say.
http://dereksmart.com/2018/11/star-citizen-year-six/
A con man knows better than anyone how to spot a fellow con man, as they say.
Oh gawd, I remember that. Fortunately I managed to return it for a refund.
It's easy (and somewhat justified) to criticize the creators here, but I don't think they're the root problem. The root problem is that gaming media and wishful-thinking funding platforms like Kickstarter reward insanely ambitious elevator pitches over more modest but achievable ones.
It's easy (and somewhat justified) to criticize the creators here, but I don't think they're the root problem. The root problem is that gaming media and wishful-thinking funding platforms like Kickstarter reward insanely ambitious elevator pitches over more modest but achievable ones.
Seems like BC3000AD managed to spend less time in development, somehow! Surprising, I always got the vibe it had been in development hell for a decade or more
There's actually an entire single player game on or parallel to the Star Citizen roadmap as well. "Squadron 42 Cinematic Teaser": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VppjX4to9s4
I backed this game just after it's kickstarter campaign 7 (?) years ago. Mainly for the MMO aspect.
The vision since has changed so much, I probably won't enjoy the MMO part. It looks more and more like a job in a space simulator, rather than a game that might not be 100% realistic, but at least fun.
Nowadays I'm just looking forward to Squadron 42, hoping they will at least manage to release episode 1 before running out of money
The vision since has changed so much, I probably won't enjoy the MMO part. It looks more and more like a job in a space simulator, rather than a game that might not be 100% realistic, but at least fun.
Nowadays I'm just looking forward to Squadron 42, hoping they will at least manage to release episode 1 before running out of money
I didn't expect to see this here.
My biggest excitement for this game is how it's being built with systemic gameplay at its core. For me, that has always been my draw to games. Their ability to model interesting systems and let you play and tinker with them. It adds almost immeasurable depth to a game.
I implore anyone with a negative or shallow opinion on the project to dive a bit deeper and check out their approach. It's such an impressive technical achievement already, and it is already a fun game to play with more content than some games have on release.
It gets plenty of negative press, and I think it's entirely down to poor communication. I can't see how anyone could be disappointed by what is being delivered, except for the timeframes.
My biggest excitement for this game is how it's being built with systemic gameplay at its core. For me, that has always been my draw to games. Their ability to model interesting systems and let you play and tinker with them. It adds almost immeasurable depth to a game.
I implore anyone with a negative or shallow opinion on the project to dive a bit deeper and check out their approach. It's such an impressive technical achievement already, and it is already a fun game to play with more content than some games have on release.
It gets plenty of negative press, and I think it's entirely down to poor communication. I can't see how anyone could be disappointed by what is being delivered, except for the timeframes.
It's already the most expensive game to be ever developed at 250m dollars[0] with only 27% (self claimed) completion.
It looks like a fraud scheme[&] where the previous customers money is being used to gain new customers without actually providing the finished product.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_g...
[1] https://starcitizentracker.github.io/
[&] is there a specific name for this type of scam, it doesn't follow the typical Ponzi, pyramid scheme blueprint.
It looks like a fraud scheme[&] where the previous customers money is being used to gain new customers without actually providing the finished product.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_g...
[1] https://starcitizentracker.github.io/
[&] is there a specific name for this type of scam, it doesn't follow the typical Ponzi, pyramid scheme blueprint.
> is there a specific name for this type of scam, it doesn't follow the typical Ponzi, pyramid scheme blueprint.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oz8xtBx06mcZWoNJm/giphy.gif
https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oz8xtBx06mcZWoNJm/giphy.gif
So this is the only game I've ever backed (and I refuse to even pre-order games) so I guess it shows how much I wanted to believe. I only paid ~£30 so I'm not too bothered, but it is sad.
Honestly, if you try the game, for the first hour or so it's beautiful. Going down to a planet and flying around is pretty magical but it quickly wears out and you won't play again until the next big release.
It does have real potential, but they need to cut 99% and focus on the basics.
Honestly, if you try the game, for the first hour or so it's beautiful. Going down to a planet and flying around is pretty magical but it quickly wears out and you won't play again until the next big release.
It does have real potential, but they need to cut 99% and focus on the basics.
Repeated changes to the scope
Repeated changes to the ToS
Repeated changes to the schedule
Not a single commitment met
6 years late and no sign of shipping a feature complete beta any time soon (certainly not by 2022)
Selling virtual ships for thousands that aren't even playable and probably never will be
Never even shipping the original promised scope and being absolutely nowhere near the impossibly large current scope.
Respectfully - fuck DNF, fuck NMS, fuck Prey, fuck 3000AD.
Star Citizen is the absolute king of gaming vaporware bullshit.
Repeated changes to the ToS
Repeated changes to the schedule
Not a single commitment met
6 years late and no sign of shipping a feature complete beta any time soon (certainly not by 2022)
Selling virtual ships for thousands that aren't even playable and probably never will be
Never even shipping the original promised scope and being absolutely nowhere near the impossibly large current scope.
Respectfully - fuck DNF, fuck NMS, fuck Prey, fuck 3000AD.
Star Citizen is the absolute king of gaming vaporware bullshit.
Hmmmmm....
I was one of the original backers at the minimal amount. I think 35$.
I absolutely loved the Wing Commander series and it still ranks as one of my all time favorites so I eager to see what Chris Roberts would produce.
I've played the game co-op with a friend on and off over the years and have definitely gotten more then 35$ enjoyment from the game. As long as they keep moving forward, I have little to complain about.
I absolutely loved the Wing Commander series and it still ranks as one of my all time favorites so I eager to see what Chris Roberts would produce.
I've played the game co-op with a friend on and off over the years and have definitely gotten more then 35$ enjoyment from the game. As long as they keep moving forward, I have little to complain about.
I bought it eons ago, never played it.
The newsletter gets annoying sometimes ha, hope they finish it someday
The newsletter gets annoying sometimes ha, hope they finish it someday
This is the first I’ve heard of this project. Got my hopes up, but apparently development has been slow and controversial?
Sigh, guess we’ll have to wait a little longer for The Oasis.
Sigh, guess we’ll have to wait a little longer for The Oasis.
It was a kick starter project from back in 2012! It has raised over $300M through crowdfunding overall plus additional investments.
Wow an alpha to a game that is unplayable. awesome, I want my money back...
The "Chandler" of the gaming world.
Star Citizen is without a doubt a total scam, with development pushing out the absolute mimimum[0] to keep more sucke^H^H^H^H^Hpeople investing more money. They're pulling in more money every year, with this year on track to be the biggest year yet[1].
I'm far from the only person who thinks it's a scam[2] and there's entire subreddits[3] devoted to people complaining and trying to get refunds.
The SC rabbit-hole is deep and (if you're into the industry drama) very entertaining, and while I don't feel sorry for the rabid fanboys who go into every SC thread defending their tens of thousands of dollars spent on a tech demo, I do absolutely feel sorry for the MILLIONS[4] of people who got suckered by these predators and led to believe they'll ever get what they paid for.
[0] https://starcitizentracker.github.io/
[1] https://www.gamerspack.com/2020/05/13/star-citizen-funding-r...
[2] http://dereksmart.com/2018/11/star-citizen-year-six/
[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen#Funding