Parisian Accent in 1912(franceculture.fr)
franceculture.fr
Parisian Accent in 1912
https://www.franceculture.fr/sciences-du-langage/archive-exceptionnelle-ecoutez-laccent-parisien-en-1912
167 comments
Canadian (anglo) here that went to French immersion (teachers were mostly from France). I don't really have an accent which sucks. People just think I am a stupid French person who makes grammatical mistakes here and there and has a more limited vocabulary set.
I am jealous of my American friends who speak with heavy accents and receive praise about their mastery.
I am jealous of my American friends who speak with heavy accents and receive praise about their mastery.
I know someone who was in that situation. She had a remarkable knack for accents (and recreating sounds generally) and did pick up French more quickly than I could. I wonder if this counts as a kind of "uncanny valley", because my experience was exactly what you reported. I spoke understandable but accented French, tilted more toward written formal French than conversational French (where I was much more limited). My friend, on the other hand, just seemed like a French person but with a faint speech anomaly and an oddly limited vocabulary at times.
It's not surprising that people initially took my version of French as an effort to learn a language properly, and hers as a sign of cognitive issues or trouble with language. Even once someone's aware of it, it won't necessary change the fundamental reaction (kind of what taller children go through - even when people learn they're much younger, they still apparently have trouble applying the standards they normally would for younger children).
Not sure what else to say about this, other than that I've seen it exactly was you describe (though not quite with the "heavy" accent, more of a moderate but immediately noticeable one).
It's not surprising that people initially took my version of French as an effort to learn a language properly, and hers as a sign of cognitive issues or trouble with language. Even once someone's aware of it, it won't necessary change the fundamental reaction (kind of what taller children go through - even when people learn they're much younger, they still apparently have trouble applying the standards they normally would for younger children).
Not sure what else to say about this, other than that I've seen it exactly was you describe (though not quite with the "heavy" accent, more of a moderate but immediately noticeable one).
> My friend, on the other hand, just seemed like a French person but with a faint speech anomaly and an oddly limited vocabulary at times.
Damn, now I wonder if that's how I come off when speaking English.
I'm from South America and have been living in the US for the last 8 years. But even before that, I always really liked English and as a kid worked really hard to emulate the way I heard it spoken in American TV shows.
The way I speak has been described as, "pretty much no accent, but you don't sound like you're from anywhere in particular." Other immigrants sometimes think I'm American, but most people say I sound like someone who speaks English as their first language, but they aren't be able to tell which country I could be from.
Maybe I should just have a bit more of a foreign accent, after all :D
Damn, now I wonder if that's how I come off when speaking English.
I'm from South America and have been living in the US for the last 8 years. But even before that, I always really liked English and as a kid worked really hard to emulate the way I heard it spoken in American TV shows.
The way I speak has been described as, "pretty much no accent, but you don't sound like you're from anywhere in particular." Other immigrants sometimes think I'm American, but most people say I sound like someone who speaks English as their first language, but they aren't be able to tell which country I could be from.
Maybe I should just have a bit more of a foreign accent, after all :D
What you described reminds me of Rosamund Pike in “Gone Girl”, I kept wondering what the deal was with her accent. But it turns out she’s British and did accent lessons. Her English wasn’t incorrect but just sounded really strange to my Midwest ears.
Oh hey :) I remember your username. I replied to a comment of yours yesterday.
Interesting. I'm gonna watch that movie when I get chance.
Interesting. I'm gonna watch that movie when I get chance.
> I don't really have an accent which sucks. People just think I am a stupid French person who makes grammatical mistakes here and there and has a more limited vocabulary set.
I recently stumbled across a French/English comedy special which has a bit specifically about this, and how much French people judge other French people's French.
I have absolutely zero experience with French and I still found most of the clips entertaining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIqVY1SwXls
I recently stumbled across a French/English comedy special which has a bit specifically about this, and how much French people judge other French people's French.
I have absolutely zero experience with French and I still found most of the clips entertaining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIqVY1SwXls
Thanks ! Hilarious. Its true French are super judgmental about French (not Québécois so much). Amusingly African French are exactly the same or worse then Europeans.
I had a girlfriend who did exactly the same as his wife.
I had a girlfriend who did exactly the same as his wife.
In this boat with my Italian. Northerners think I'm from the South. Southerners think I'm from Rome. Imagine their surprise when I tell them I'm from another Italy... Staten Italy.
Hah, I had this happen when doing some work in Rome. The CEO of the startup remarked that I had a heavy American accent, which... I was a bit taken aback by, because I rarely hear that, and I work hard to speak Italian well. Later, he heard me speaking with another guy at the company who was from near where I lived in Padova, and it dawned on him (I don't think he was the sharpest tool in the shed) that my accent was more 'Veneto' than American.
Is that in staten island?
Staten Island == Staten Italy
Staten Island has a very large population of Italian-Americans. Italian-American culture pervades many facets of Staten Island life and culture, even among non-Italians — so much so that many residents (and former residents like me) sometimes jokingly refer to it as Staten Italy.
Staten Island has a very large population of Italian-Americans. Italian-American culture pervades many facets of Staten Island life and culture, even among non-Italians — so much so that many residents (and former residents like me) sometimes jokingly refer to it as Staten Italy.
This is exactly the joke Paul Taylor (British living in France) tells in his standup show [1], which is super funny. I went to watch him live, what a great standup show.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pae2AMnmUVA
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pae2AMnmUVA
While working in France a couple of decades ago, I found that I got better service if I botched the accent and stuck to basic language (which I was ok at) than if I tried to match accent, use l'argot and sound native (which is my tendency) and screwed up language.
It was a helluva realization about psychology.
It was a helluva realization about psychology.
They teach us Quebecois accent which is sort of like the Texan/Southern dialect. It's associated with negative stereotypes.
On one call I recall a team from Paris snickering as my Quebecois co-worker spoke who was confused and embarrassed.
Heureusement, mon professeur était parisien.
On one call I recall a team from Paris snickering as my Quebecois co-worker spoke who was confused and embarrassed.
Heureusement, mon professeur était parisien.
That's it in a nutshell though, would in the US/Canada actually snicker because someone was talking with a Texan accent? It's a bit ridiculous.
Yeah, kinda. The stereotype [yes they are stereotypes, not trying to offend anybody] of a southern accent in the northeastern US is that the speaker is slow, unintelligent, backward, or most charitably, "folksy".
I'm not from the south so I'm not as sure what the stereotype is in the opposite direction -- about the "yankees". Probably that they are inept and arrogant? Any time I've heard American southerners talk about "yankees" that's pretty much the tone
Out on the west coast I never hear about these dynamics anymore. People don't care about north/south here. Though curiously to me, I have encountered many westerners who sound more southern than northern to my ear.
I'm not from the south so I'm not as sure what the stereotype is in the opposite direction -- about the "yankees". Probably that they are inept and arrogant? Any time I've heard American southerners talk about "yankees" that's pretty much the tone
Out on the west coast I never hear about these dynamics anymore. People don't care about north/south here. Though curiously to me, I have encountered many westerners who sound more southern than northern to my ear.
People in England do that all the time.
As someone who also did French Immersion in Canada, I'm very surprised that most of your teachers were from France. Over 13 years in school, I think every single teacher I had that spoke french was Quebecois, and taught Quebecois.
This was my experience too. A few years ago I was at a conference in Paris, and I understood every word which the people around me said in French... but the people around me didn't understand a single word I said in French!
My experience is that French is flat (rather monotonous rhythm and stress is much less important than in English). This makes it somewhat easy to follow for foreigners after some training compared to e.g. Spanish which is typically all over the place and very fast (though not more difficult once you get the hang of it).
On the other hand French speaker can get confused by strange intonation or stresses. Also there are several sounds that do not exist in English (e.g. /eu/, /u/, and the nasals /an/, /on/, /in/, the /ill/ can be problematic as well). Approximations of these sounds are distracting and can be genuinely confusing. And contrary to some English accents you can’t count on properly stressed syllables to help carry the meaning.
During my time in New York I had the opposite problem. As a native French speaker with some English education (having lived in London), apparently people understood me without difficulty. On the other hand, it took me a while to get the meaning of what other people were saying without asking them to repeat. After months it was still difficult to understand announcements in the subway.
On the other hand French speaker can get confused by strange intonation or stresses. Also there are several sounds that do not exist in English (e.g. /eu/, /u/, and the nasals /an/, /on/, /in/, the /ill/ can be problematic as well). Approximations of these sounds are distracting and can be genuinely confusing. And contrary to some English accents you can’t count on properly stressed syllables to help carry the meaning.
During my time in New York I had the opposite problem. As a native French speaker with some English education (having lived in London), apparently people understood me without difficulty. On the other hand, it took me a while to get the meaning of what other people were saying without asking them to repeat. After months it was still difficult to understand announcements in the subway.
> After months it was still difficult to understand announcements in the subway.
Don't worry, native English speakers also have difficulties with this
Don't worry, native English speakers also have difficulties with this
push, p/eu/sh?
long, l/on/ng, l/an/ng?
long, l/on/ng, l/an/ng?
Not quite, /eu/ in French is deeper, closer to /ö/ in German, I really can’t think of an English word with the same sound.
The /on/ nasal vowel is also approximated in “don’t” in some English accent, but again often imperfectly. In French, you don’t hear the n at all, whereas it is most often noticeable in “long”. AFAICT, the closest is /ão/ in Portuguese.
The /on/ nasal vowel is also approximated in “don’t” in some English accent, but again often imperfectly. In French, you don’t hear the n at all, whereas it is most often noticeable in “long”. AFAICT, the closest is /ão/ in Portuguese.
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> french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.
It's more than that. There's a growing divergence between the spoken French and the written French.
Où irions-nous ? Nous hésitâmes... (written French)
On allait où ? On a hésité... (spoken French)
Writings from the XVIIth century bare little difference to most modern novels. Of course, some words have evolved (e.g. "caresser" was akin to "praise", now it's more like "pet" or "fondle") but the grammar and the vocabulary is mostly identical.
Centuries ago, the langage spoken was already different from what was written. I think the main difference was that there were many local variations, like shown in the Littré dictionary (1870s). The uniformization came with WWI, then the modern communication.
It's more than that. There's a growing divergence between the spoken French and the written French.
Où irions-nous ? Nous hésitâmes... (written French)
On allait où ? On a hésité... (spoken French)
Writings from the XVIIth century bare little difference to most modern novels. Of course, some words have evolved (e.g. "caresser" was akin to "praise", now it's more like "pet" or "fondle") but the grammar and the vocabulary is mostly identical.
Centuries ago, the langage spoken was already different from what was written. I think the main difference was that there were many local variations, like shown in the Littré dictionary (1870s). The uniformization came with WWI, then the modern communication.
Yes, they don't teach you the "on a...", "faire le truc avec...", "ouais" and "ca marche" at school, altough everyone uses this. I just wish schools would prepare you a little better for the difference between writing and speaking. My daughter learned to say "chouette, c'est jolie!" in her french class, which is preposterous and almost akin to saying 'Jolly gay, old chap!' in English today.
> My daughter learned to say "chouette, c'est joli !" in her french class, which is preposterous and almost akin to saying 'Jolly gay, old chap!' in English today.
Don't be so harsh. I would not be surprised to hear a child (~6/8 years old) say that, assuming some kind of polite/policed family background.
> Yes, they don't teach you the "on a...", "faire le truc avec...", "ouais" and "ca marche"
Imagine us watching Stringer Bell from "The Wire" for the first time. Or listening to pop or rap. Or chatting with native speakers.
We just have more exposure.
Don't be so harsh. I would not be surprised to hear a child (~6/8 years old) say that, assuming some kind of polite/policed family background.
> Yes, they don't teach you the "on a...", "faire le truc avec...", "ouais" and "ca marche"
Imagine us watching Stringer Bell from "The Wire" for the first time. Or listening to pop or rap. Or chatting with native speakers.
We just have more exposure.
> Imagine us watching Stringer Bell from "The Wire" for the first time.
I tried to watch "The Wire" without English subtitles 10 years ago. No chance. I could barely make out individual words. After a season with subtitles, it just clicked.
I tried to watch "The Wire" without English subtitles 10 years ago. No chance. I could barely make out individual words. After a season with subtitles, it just clicked.
Pandemic, we got pandemic!
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I'm an American living in Germany and I'm always thrilled when Germans think I'm Dutch after hearing my German ;)
As for the accents, I had a similar experience when moving around from Berlin to Munich to Mainz with regard to the "clicking". It's like my brain suddenly recalibrated to understand the vowel and consonant changes in the accent (and particularly in certain areas the parts of the words that simply were dropped off the beginning/end of the word).
People often tell me "Wow, I wish I was good at languages like you" and I honestly want them to understand how I feel: I didn't learn German, I simply spent enough time in the language for my brain to catch up and learn it for me.
As for the accents, I had a similar experience when moving around from Berlin to Munich to Mainz with regard to the "clicking". It's like my brain suddenly recalibrated to understand the vowel and consonant changes in the accent (and particularly in certain areas the parts of the words that simply were dropped off the beginning/end of the word).
People often tell me "Wow, I wish I was good at languages like you" and I honestly want them to understand how I feel: I didn't learn German, I simply spent enough time in the language for my brain to catch up and learn it for me.
Because you sound like the guy who dubbed Goldeneye to them!
(JK ;) )
(JK ;) )
I often watch French language tv shows or movies to keep up my language skills. I recently watched "Call my agent." Way better than "Versailles" ;)
Thing is, it's very difficult for me to understand. But I realized that if I put on CC in French, I can understand it no problem, almost as well as if the CC was in English. But without the CC, I can't understand it well enough to enjoy the show.
This leads me to believe that my difficulty in understanding spoken vs written French might not be so much grammar and vocab of spoken French, but rather the difficulty of translating sounds to words in real time.
I really should leave the CC off entirely, but I want to enjoy the show, so for now, my compromise is to watch with CC in French. I am almost certainly compromising my language skills this way, though.
Thing is, it's very difficult for me to understand. But I realized that if I put on CC in French, I can understand it no problem, almost as well as if the CC was in English. But without the CC, I can't understand it well enough to enjoy the show.
This leads me to believe that my difficulty in understanding spoken vs written French might not be so much grammar and vocab of spoken French, but rather the difficulty of translating sounds to words in real time.
I really should leave the CC off entirely, but I want to enjoy the show, so for now, my compromise is to watch with CC in French. I am almost certainly compromising my language skills this way, though.
> This leads me to believe that my difficulty in understanding spoken vs written French might not be so much grammar and vocab of spoken French, but rather the difficulty of translating sounds to words in real time.
I'm an English-only speaker and watch English with subtitles and it definitely increases my understanding too. I think I definitely have a problem mapping sounds to meaning, names especially can take me 3 or 4 times to hear properly when introduced if it's a little noisy. It gets embarrassing to ask them to repeat themselves.
Spoken conversations also don't stick as well in my memory - if I read something once there's a good chance I remember it adequately, not so much for listening.
I'm an English-only speaker and watch English with subtitles and it definitely increases my understanding too. I think I definitely have a problem mapping sounds to meaning, names especially can take me 3 or 4 times to hear properly when introduced if it's a little noisy. It gets embarrassing to ask them to repeat themselves.
Spoken conversations also don't stick as well in my memory - if I read something once there's a good chance I remember it adequately, not so much for listening.
I asked some French friends if there was any good French TV that I could watch to learn more, but also enjoy at the same time. They started talking amongst themselves and I honestly thought they hadn't heard me, until about 5 minutes later they turned back and just said: "Non" :D
For an learner who wants to understand, I’d strongly recommend _Le petit prince_e and _L’homme qui plantait des arbres_. Both about an hour long, beautifully animated, adapted verbatim from books that have easy to find translations.
Both as meant for children (and adult who think like them) so you might feel condescended to — but both have a very simple, classic language, distinctly articulated that makes it easier to follow for foreigners.
The stories are wonderful too: about what makes a life worthwhile and conservation.
The other recommendation I’d make are:
* audio-books that might not have movie equivalent: the accent in _Regain_, by the same Giono as _L’homme qui plantait des arbres_ has me to tears;
* any version of Criminal (the UK one was popular but the French, German and Spanish one are great too); all have the same minimal set and nothing but dialogue (it feels like a hilarious and successful exercise in saving money on production);
* hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.
Both as meant for children (and adult who think like them) so you might feel condescended to — but both have a very simple, classic language, distinctly articulated that makes it easier to follow for foreigners.
The stories are wonderful too: about what makes a life worthwhile and conservation.
The other recommendation I’d make are:
* audio-books that might not have movie equivalent: the accent in _Regain_, by the same Giono as _L’homme qui plantait des arbres_ has me to tears;
* any version of Criminal (the UK one was popular but the French, German and Spanish one are great too); all have the same minimal set and nothing but dialogue (it feels like a hilarious and successful exercise in saving money on production);
* hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.
Le petit prince, although understandable by children, evokes deep philosophical ideas and a subtle sense of humour and can also be a great experience for adults. The language is beautiful and would really shine in a good audiobook.
> hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.
Yes, Lupin is great for that. The accents are not too heavy and the text, though not high literature, is not too dumb (often a problem with series, to be honest). The language is contemporary with a bit of slang but nothing outlandish that I recall. Also, the American accents of the dubbed version are completely out of character so the French audio is the way to go anyway.
> hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.
Yes, Lupin is great for that. The accents are not too heavy and the text, though not high literature, is not too dumb (often a problem with series, to be honest). The language is contemporary with a bit of slang but nothing outlandish that I recall. Also, the American accents of the dubbed version are completely out of character so the French audio is the way to go anyway.
Engrenages, le Bureau des Légendes. You will not regret it.
As a français, I second this. I'm extremely critical of most TV shows and I tend to quit very fast when get the impression I'm losing time.
Engrenages is about the only TV shows I am able to watch in french, and it's a really good one. I'd would say, frankly, that it's our equivalent to The Wire.
The Bureau (Le Bureau des Légendes) is the only good French show I've seen lately, and it's also one of my favourite shows period.
My all time favourite French show, Kaamelott, would be utterly inpenetrable for non-native French speakers because it relies heavily on verbal comedy and speech registers.
My all time favourite French show, Kaamelott, would be utterly inpenetrable for non-native French speakers because it relies heavily on verbal comedy and speech registers.
I really enjoyed 'Marseille' (it's on Netflix I believe). Although I'm fairly proficient in french I watched it with the french subtitles on so I could learn all kinds of new swearing words and verlan (street language where you inverse the order of syllables).
May I recommend https://madelen.ina.fr/
They have old tv shows that are easier to follow then contemporary series.
I also enjoy to watch French dubbed US shows on Netflix that I‘m already familiar with.
Watch "Au service de la France" and "Family Business", both really funny. Second one is a bit vulgar.
I have that experience with anime. Sometimes Japanese subtitles really help.
What's interesting and weird to me: both Dutch and French speakers from Belgium (so, Flemish and Walloon people) often sound like they have the same accent when speaking English! To me at least. Anybody else noticed this?
And Flemish people have a totally different accent when speaking English than Dutch people. TO my ears most Dutch people have a distinct English accent; some more than others, but almost always identifiable as from Dutch origin.
Walter Lewin (as in e.g. https://youtu.be/sJG-rXBbmCc) is a quite extreme example, despite the fact that he has lived in the US since 1966. Carice van Houten (Melisandre in Game of Thrones) has it too but less pronounced.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too, and that I simply don't notice it as much (being Flemish myself).
Germans speaking English are often recognizable as well.
Walter Lewin (as in e.g. https://youtu.be/sJG-rXBbmCc) is a quite extreme example, despite the fact that he has lived in the US since 1966. Carice van Houten (Melisandre in Game of Thrones) has it too but less pronounced.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too, and that I simply don't notice it as much (being Flemish myself).
Germans speaking English are often recognizable as well.
> I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too
Yes! One thing I sometimes notice is that, in Flemish we pronounce "wat is" as "wadis", and sometimes Flemish people in English will also say "Whad is". So Flemish people end up saying "Whad is dat?" instead of "What is that?". (Also lots of "eh?"s and the occasional "allez" pop up.)
Yes! One thing I sometimes notice is that, in Flemish we pronounce "wat is" as "wadis", and sometimes Flemish people in English will also say "Whad is". So Flemish people end up saying "Whad is dat?" instead of "What is that?". (Also lots of "eh?"s and the occasional "allez" pop up.)
As a Flemish person, I wouldn't say Flemish and Walloon have the same accent in English, but I guess I'm not the one to judge. What is funny though, is that _in English_, you can sometimes detect different Flemish accents, i.e. when someone is speaking in English, I can tell whether they're from West-Flanders, from Antwerp, or from Limburg (in the east of Flanders). Their typical Flemish accent seeps through in their English. Also, the Dutch have the same accent in English as they do in Dutch (compared to the Flemish variant of Dutch).
French R and soft G are shared among other things between the French and people from the South of Holland and below.
Godfather was Walloon, ex-roommate was Flemish. Very different accents when speaking English - my godfather sounded like a French person, the Flemish roommate could be mistaken for a Scandinavian ... also notable that he sounded nothing like a Dutch person, who in my experience have very good British or North American "clean" accents.
> Also, I learned that the french in school is nothing like the french they speak in France. Sure, you get by and they'll understand you, but french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.
Virtually everyone who learns a language in school as you described will feel this way when they encounter native speakers in the target language's country(s) of origin.
The reality of school teaching is that it enforces prescriptive snapshots of the language. It teaches the grammatical "rules" of a language at a moment in time, but these rules are always changing. Common English has changed a lot since 1800; consider how different an English class in 1800s might be from one now, though they are both valid in being called English classes. The classes continue exist, but they are often lingering behind the real deal.
Language is developed naturally by our minds, and its inner workings are still largely unknown to us. The best way to learn it is by actual exposure to it, as it is meant to be used. You are always going to be removed from this reality if you are sitting in a classroom with minimal direct exposure.
Virtually everyone who learns a language in school as you described will feel this way when they encounter native speakers in the target language's country(s) of origin.
The reality of school teaching is that it enforces prescriptive snapshots of the language. It teaches the grammatical "rules" of a language at a moment in time, but these rules are always changing. Common English has changed a lot since 1800; consider how different an English class in 1800s might be from one now, though they are both valid in being called English classes. The classes continue exist, but they are often lingering behind the real deal.
Language is developed naturally by our minds, and its inner workings are still largely unknown to us. The best way to learn it is by actual exposure to it, as it is meant to be used. You are always going to be removed from this reality if you are sitting in a classroom with minimal direct exposure.
I can literally hear La pizza song [1] in my head as I read your comment which is pretty much all I remember from elementary school. It was only in my final year of high school that our teacher who was from Paris really pushed us and it didn't involve us singing awkward songs.
Now I have PTSD everytime I see or eat pizza, the song plays in my head, like some sick Pavlov experiment.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j3hPW3pvOw
Now I have PTSD everytime I see or eat pizza, the song plays in my head, like some sick Pavlov experiment.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j3hPW3pvOw
Every time I try to pronounce "Auvergne" to a French person they quite literally cannot comprehend what I'm aiming for. It's pretty remarkable that I've been trying for years at this point and still can't get it right! I can manage Clermont-Ferrand at least so I can sort of fudge what I mean using that but still, it would be nice to figure it out one day :D
Auvergne has a lot of the sounds that are almost impossible to get right: 'au' has few equivalent other than the Scandinavian 'å' (and they rarely make the connection), 'v' is muted, the wet 'gn' sounds like the Spanish 'll' but is hard for even then to put in the middle of a word — and the unheard final 'e' will trip anyone in the country for less than two decade.
“Bonjour“ and “croissant” are classic examples too: the opening 'b' is muted, 'j' only exist in some arabic dialect, etc.
I used to live near the Louvre and the hundreds of tourist ordering at the local bakery were offended that, pointing at the pastries and articulating as much as they could, the baker would claim to have no idea what they wanted. I had to explain that she genuinely couldn’t understand and she was sincerely confused at them pointing at a croissant and asking for a “Keurrawssanteu”. Those two things could not be the same — it’s not an accent: someone from Switwzerland or Quebec would have no problem even though they sound completely different. I could make sense because I spoke English. “But I’m speaking in French…” Well… almost.
“Bonjour“ and “croissant” are classic examples too: the opening 'b' is muted, 'j' only exist in some arabic dialect, etc.
I used to live near the Louvre and the hundreds of tourist ordering at the local bakery were offended that, pointing at the pastries and articulating as much as they could, the baker would claim to have no idea what they wanted. I had to explain that she genuinely couldn’t understand and she was sincerely confused at them pointing at a croissant and asking for a “Keurrawssanteu”. Those two things could not be the same — it’s not an accent: someone from Switwzerland or Quebec would have no problem even though they sound completely different. I could make sense because I spoke English. “But I’m speaking in French…” Well… almost.
> (I totally dig their counting system though, septante, huitante et nonante makes so much more sense).
French beginner, holy shit I'm just gonna use that if I ever speak with native speakers. I'll tell 'em I learned in Switzerland. soixante-dix and quatre-vingt-dix is bonkers!
French beginner, holy shit I'm just gonna use that if I ever speak with native speakers. I'll tell 'em I learned in Switzerland. soixante-dix and quatre-vingt-dix is bonkers!
Redoing counting was the best thing the Swiss may have ever done.
Not sure if you are a wine drinker, but the natural wines coming out of Auvergne are absolutely delicious!
Some of the most interesting wines in the world IMO.
Some of the most interesting wines in the world IMO.
Have you ever gone to Quebec, or heard that accent?
Never been there, but I met a french-speaking couple from Montreal once. I could understand them just fine, but couldn't place the accent. It didn't really occur to me hearing white people speaking french were from another country than France. (My former neighbour was from Congo and I was able to converse with him in french although his patois was hard to follow).
It is said that the Quebec French accent is the same as was spoken in France in the 1600’s and hasn’t changed that much over the years whereas the French accent, has. I’m not sure if this is true, however.
That's bad popular linguistics. Québec French has kept features that are archaic by Mainland French standards (the most blatant being the unfinished separation of oi and ai, which was solidified around the French Revolution), but it also has its own innovated features.
You've got the same thing going on with American accents, and some of them keeping older English features. Simon Roper made a nice video about that [1].
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rb0HPDnc8Y
You've got the same thing going on with American accents, and some of them keeping older English features. Simon Roper made a nice video about that [1].
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rb0HPDnc8Y
I think it’s a case of divergent evolution. We notice archaic phrases because they are funny, but québécois French also evolves.
This is also noteworthy because it's the first time (presumably only in French) that we have a recording of someone listening back to their own voice and reacting to it. The interviewee clearly recognises their own voice, and is surprised at how heavy their accent is!
It must have been an odd feeling - like looking at your reflection for the first time!
It must have been an odd feeling - like looking at your reflection for the first time!
I went through this same experience as a student, having gone "up" to Paris. As part of a "communication class" we were taped, and then saw our own recording. Video was not as common at the time as it is nowadays, but to me it was quite shocking: I could barely understand myself!
It was not only the accent (now weaker with time), but also mumbling plus talking too fast. It was a good experience. Definitely motivated me to pay more attention when I speak, slow down and articulate more (the accent part was not the main issue there ;).
It was not only the accent (now weaker with time), but also mumbling plus talking too fast. It was a good experience. Definitely motivated me to pay more attention when I speak, slow down and articulate more (the accent part was not the main issue there ;).
I remember some Reddit shower thought that the first person to record and play back sound must have thought they did it wrong when they heard their own voice.
What makes me think is that people before this and photography didn't have precise recordings of anything natural. Images, sounds, videos... all that was totally evanescent and inspecting it wasn't even in the people's mind I guess.
This is a recording from an interview of a Parisian craftsman that took place in 1912. The purpose was to study the different accents that were found in Paris at the time. They mention that it's easy to tell apart someone from Paris 14th arrondissement (south-ish) and someone from Montmarte (north). When the interviewee listens to the recording, he's astonished to hear why people have sometimes been mentioning slowness in his speech.
As a native French speaker, what most strikes me in this recording is actually the contrast between:
- the language level, which is very much higher than what you would get recording anyone on the street today, with fairly rich grammatical forms, and few of the now common shortcuts or mistakes - in a way, a more beautiful and educated French than you can find in most of today's France, the kind you'd find only in older traditional upper class families
- the accent itself, which has kind of a lower-social-status conotation;
- the guy pronouncing everything, who is neither in the highs nor in the lows of society, but a middle class small busines owner who presumably did not receive higher (nor probably even high school) education
Were I not an optimist, I'd say this unfortunately is a sad illustration of what has become of education and language in our country, and more generally the acceptance by our society of everything and anything under the pretext that everyone deserves a chance even when they don't match the level previously judged as the acceptable minimum.
- the language level, which is very much higher than what you would get recording anyone on the street today, with fairly rich grammatical forms, and few of the now common shortcuts or mistakes - in a way, a more beautiful and educated French than you can find in most of today's France, the kind you'd find only in older traditional upper class families
- the accent itself, which has kind of a lower-social-status conotation;
- the guy pronouncing everything, who is neither in the highs nor in the lows of society, but a middle class small busines owner who presumably did not receive higher (nor probably even high school) education
Were I not an optimist, I'd say this unfortunately is a sad illustration of what has become of education and language in our country, and more generally the acceptance by our society of everything and anything under the pretext that everyone deserves a chance even when they don't match the level previously judged as the acceptable minimum.
[deleted]
> - the guy pronouncing everything
What I found interesting is that while he does pronounce more things than a typical Parisian would today, he does skip some e's, in a very typical Parisian manner.
What I found interesting is that while he does pronounce more things than a typical Parisian would today, he does skip some e's, in a very typical Parisian manner.
Fascinating, sounds like a mix of high-class grammar with low-class phonology.
Funny to see France Culture (originally just a radio station pre-internet) on the top of HackerNews. France Culture was often playing in the background when I would go visit my Parisian relatives. For those French language speakers, I recommend listening to the “La Méthode scientifique” science news podcast [1].
[1] https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifiq...
[1] https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifiq...
It is fascinating how fast accents change. I have recordings from my childhood (30 years ago) and you can hear a definitely different accent! Today only people born in small towns speak like that, but I had never left my city by that time,
A few years ago I moved for work from a town in northern Italy to another. While only 70km away the two places have very distinct accents. After a couple of years people from my hometown would comment on how I sounded as a guy from the new town (people from the second town would never mistake my origins though, so I guess I had a funny mixed accent).
As a Frenchman in Dublin, Ireland, even I could hear a distinct accent difference between people from the north and the south banks of the river.
Now I wonder if the same could be true of Paris and I'm just blind to it because it's my native language.
Now I wonder if the same could be true of Paris and I'm just blind to it because it's my native language.
Northside and southside Dublin are radically different accents. Less so now, with mass media and increased mobility gradually reducing the extremes, but exemplars of each are almost chalk and cheese - like Queen's English vs Cockney.
Northside drops trailing Ts, replacing them with a gentle glottal stop ("give me my coat" -> "gimme me coa'"), "book" may be pronounced "buke", etc.
Southside, at the sterotypical maximum, pushes trailing Ts towards SH and broadens vowels ("are you all right" -> "ore you awl roish" - it's not quite sh, but in that direction).
(I was born in Dublin, my father and his siblings grew up in North Strand in the shade of Croke Park, but I grew up in Galway, so I observed the accent as an outsider when staying in Dublin.)
Northside drops trailing Ts, replacing them with a gentle glottal stop ("give me my coat" -> "gimme me coa'"), "book" may be pronounced "buke", etc.
Southside, at the sterotypical maximum, pushes trailing Ts towards SH and broadens vowels ("are you all right" -> "ore you awl roish" - it's not quite sh, but in that direction).
(I was born in Dublin, my father and his siblings grew up in North Strand in the shade of Croke Park, but I grew up in Galway, so I observed the accent as an outsider when staying in Dublin.)
I can recognize Italian accents and words that are distinct between towns that are < 20 km apart.
I left my country about 10 years ago to come to US. I talk to my parents and friends every once in a while, so my native language is sharp but that's my only interaction with it (I read, write, speak, think, dream etc in (sometimes broken) English exclusively). But a couple days ago my mom was watching TV and I overheard the conversation (by teenagers) in the show she's watching and it blew my mind how tiny tiny little things were different in their accents. I cannot put it into words exactly what was off about them, probably something to do with stress, but it was a shocking revelation. I asked her about it and she said she can't notice any difference. I asked her to switch to some other shows to see if it was idiosyncratic style of these people, but other shows had similar differences. I guess 10 years is long enough for tiny changes in languages.
I am from south east in France (nearby Marseille), now living in Switzerland, and while my accent was fairly tamed for a provençale, before, I have taken a light French Swiss accent now :'
I moved from iowa to minnesota and made some friends from rural wisconsin, my mother was quite amused when a new accent would come out from time to time.
Each one of those are very distinctive, and even eastern Iowa is more like Wisconsin than the rest of the state. You ask any of those people to say a word like "cow" with a vowel and you get different and notable accents. I recall meeting a woman recently who had been born and raised in Seattle, but her parents came from Wisconsin - I knew, because I could clearly hear their accent in her speech.
Another funny one, the more "locally idiomatic" an expression, the heavier is my accent.
No kidding. The way I managed to identify the accents of my own city was to not live there anymore.
Then you come back and suddenly most people have an accent! It's funny.
Then you come back and suddenly most people have an accent! It's funny.
Some interesting U.S. accents:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6089621A87373FBE
The oddest is Tangier Island, VA:
https://youtu.be/AIZgw09CG9E
Relevant to this submission, a Cajun accent:
https://youtu.be/hV8TQTUSsgw
Relevant to HN, tech talk circa 1985:
https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6089621A87373FBE
The oddest is Tangier Island, VA:
https://youtu.be/AIZgw09CG9E
Relevant to this submission, a Cajun accent:
https://youtu.be/hV8TQTUSsgw
Relevant to HN, tech talk circa 1985:
https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU
> Relevant to HN, tech talk circa 1985:
> https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU
Since this thread is about accents, I start watching that and immediately hearing the guy say "hard drive" and "automatic" I think: he's from New York.
> https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU
Since this thread is about accents, I start watching that and immediately hearing the guy say "hard drive" and "automatic" I think: he's from New York.
[deleted]
It's amusing hearing them discuss the differences between the accents of Montparnasse, Montmartre and La Villette. Who today could identify where, within Paris somebody is coming from based on accents only? I know I couldn't. The world was bigger back then, a different arrondissement was already a foreign place.
The world is bigger, but not that much. The speech and clothing differences between "Paris Ouest" and "Paris Est" are still recognizable. While differences are less stark, arrondissements still have distinct styles.
The 8th arrondissement at lunch time has a uniform, distinct from La Défense's. The 16th's rue de Passy and the 7th's rue Cler have clear differences in clothing and speech style on a Saturday morning. Le Marais and the 11th have different stereotypical accessories.
We'll see what'll be the public opinion about us in 108 years!
The 8th arrondissement at lunch time has a uniform, distinct from La Défense's. The 16th's rue de Passy and the 7th's rue Cler have clear differences in clothing and speech style on a Saturday morning. Le Marais and the 11th have different stereotypical accessories.
We'll see what'll be the public opinion about us in 108 years!
And the N-E suburbs became the soil for a completely new 'banlieue' accent and lingo (blend of gypsy and northern-africa).
Would love to know more about those differences in dress and speech within Paris. I've spent many months in France and love the country but spent less than a week total in Paris even though its a city that fascinates me.
An accent is an indication of the extent of communication beyond a group.
The world wasn't bigger back then (or even today). People were less connected and their speech patterns were not influenced by audio-visual media.
The world wasn't bigger back then (or even today). People were less connected and their speech patterns were not influenced by audio-visual media.
See funny thing is as a French person in London.
I don't think I can spot accents from different parts of Paris, but I can definitely spot accents from different parts of London.
I think there's something else at play, I'm not sure what. Maybe how much people have moved in last few decades? Maybe how much of a hyper-local life there is in each area?
I don't think I can spot accents from different parts of Paris, but I can definitely spot accents from different parts of London.
I think there's something else at play, I'm not sure what. Maybe how much people have moved in last few decades? Maybe how much of a hyper-local life there is in each area?
I don't disagree. That still exists to some extent. I don't think I could tell a Brooklyn accent from a Bronx accent, but i think some can? (Can they hear it in 20-year-olds not just 60-year-olds? Not sure).
I can very easily tell Bronx from Brooklyn from Manhattan from Queens, in some cases down to specific neighborhoods or cultures...but really only in folks 60+, maybe occasionally in people more in the 40+ range who had fairly isolated upbringings, but that's it. Any younger than that, I often can only even tell you're from New York City by word choice and slang, not accent. I suspect that's similar to what's going on in Paris, albeit I'm in absolutely no position to know.
(For context: I did not grow up in NYC, but my family was from there, and I lived there for quite awhile myself as well. It's entirely possible someone who did grow up in NYC can do better than I can, but, at least to my ear, it gets very close to just standard American broadcast English the younger you go, so I doubt it.)
(For context: I did not grow up in NYC, but my family was from there, and I lived there for quite awhile myself as well. It's entirely possible someone who did grow up in NYC can do better than I can, but, at least to my ear, it gets very close to just standard American broadcast English the younger you go, so I doubt it.)
The usual caveat about Paris applies: the city of Paris is but a tiny core of the larger Paris metropolitan area (Paris: 2.1M people, Paris metro: c. 10M). Paris is about one fifth of its metro area, a city like NYC is about half.
A closer analogue to being able to distinguish accents from Montparnasse, Montmartre and La Villette would be to able to distinguish accents from different places in Manhattan.
I think even today there are substantial accent differences within the Paris metropolitan area (think Versailles vs le Marais vs Aulnay), but within Paris proper not so much.
A closer analogue to being able to distinguish accents from Montparnasse, Montmartre and La Villette would be to able to distinguish accents from different places in Manhattan.
I think even today there are substantial accent differences within the Paris metropolitan area (think Versailles vs le Marais vs Aulnay), but within Paris proper not so much.
Related: I really enjoyed the movie Inglourious Basterds. It was especially original and interesting, as it relied heavily on languages and accents for the plot.
However, what killed my suspension of disbelief (as a native French speaker) was the fact that the French actress spoke with an unmistakable early 21st century accent, definitely out of place in a second world war movie.
This was a big letdown, considering how much attention had been given to accents in the rest of the movie.
However, what killed my suspension of disbelief (as a native French speaker) was the fact that the French actress spoke with an unmistakable early 21st century accent, definitely out of place in a second world war movie.
This was a big letdown, considering how much attention had been given to accents in the rest of the movie.
What a great movie! Still my favorite Tarantino film to date. I suppose the whole accents thing was directed for the primarily Anglophone viewer (since some of it depends on reading the subtitles, if you do not understand the language), so perhaps we can forgive Mélanie Laurent for not bothering with a 1940s accent.
It's been a while since I've last watched it and I might be completely wrong here as I am no expert in accents, but I believe that none of the languages spoken had an accent that sounded like someone from the 1940s.
Both the English and German were much closer to a 21st century accent than a 1940s one, and so was the French one as you mentioned.
Both the English and German were much closer to a 21st century accent than a 1940s one, and so was the French one as you mentioned.
At some point, the interviewer and the interviewee discuss how easy it is to tell apart the accents attached to various neighbourhoods in Paris. For those interested with the same process with the English language, I strongly recommend the film Pygmalion (1938) which I enjoyed much more than the later My Fair Lady.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_(1938_film)
Over the last decades living in France, I've heard several friends that lost their accent, notably from Loire and Jura. Of course some new French accents may emerge locally or in some communities, but the geography plays a lesser role.
Over the last decades living in France, I've heard several friends that lost their accent, notably from Loire and Jura. Of course some new French accents may emerge locally or in some communities, but the geography plays a lesser role.
Interesting, while listening it sounded to me like the accent in François Truffaut's films. Then I realized that those films are closer to that recording than current times! (The 400 Blows is from 1959)
Unrelated, but the English literal translation of Les quatre cents coups is just daft, it should have been "The school of hard knocks" or similar.
For me all the old accents feels similar, so it reminds me of some Louis-de-Funès movies.
My grand-parents still today have a similar way of speaking as well. It is not only the accent, but also the pace and vocabulary.
Also, nowadays everybody is speaking casual French, but formal French was actually a thing in the past ;)
My grand-parents still today have a similar way of speaking as well. It is not only the accent, but also the pace and vocabulary.
Also, nowadays everybody is speaking casual French, but formal French was actually a thing in the past ;)
I had the same reaction, I heard similar accents in old pieces of media - even by some people that are still famous today (though mostly dead).
There are many more recordings in the BNF archives linked by the article.
There are even recordings of people speaking latin and Esperanto in 1912. Fascinating stuff!
There are even recordings of people speaking latin and Esperanto in 1912. Fascinating stuff!
Arletty's accent[1] in Hôtel du Nord (1938) is amazing too!
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYic1U1a6yw
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYic1U1a6yw
I don't like it. It sounds like fast bullet sentences exagerated for cinematic effects. I appreciate it but I associate it with movies from that period, not with how people really talked.
I used to know someone who talked just like that.
Hôtel du Nord has been on my watch list for a long time. Thanks for the reminder. It looks like the waterway in the background is the Canal Saint-Martin. Sometimes people forget there are other waterways in Paris besides the Seine :-)
I suppose accents are changing rapidly everywhere. We recently found a recording of my parents talking to me as a baby in the late 1970s. They both sounded like the actors from "The Good Life".
The question is - is it happening more quickly than before. Almost certainly, I'd say, if you listen to examples of London accents across the centuries like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20
The question is - is it happening more quickly than before. Almost certainly, I'd say, if you listen to examples of London accents across the centuries like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20
> Almost certainly, I'd say, if you listen to examples of London accents across the centuries like these
MAJOR caveat there; to a large extent that's presumably based on people _guessing_ what a London accent was like 600 years ago. There's some evidence, but there certainly aren't recordings, and there'd be ~no information on the small details.
MAJOR caveat there; to a large extent that's presumably based on people _guessing_ what a London accent was like 600 years ago. There's some evidence, but there certainly aren't recordings, and there'd be ~no information on the small details.
[deleted]
Yes, radio started flattening them out and ubiquitous video is only going to accelerate that process.
I really noticed this working in a school when I lived in Tennessee. A lot of the faculty had fairly heavy southern accents, but I don't remember ever noticing it with the students. It makes sense though when you realize that a huge chunk of the voices the students learned from were on YouTube, TV, etc., not just people from their own hometown.
Posts to HN are supposed to be in English*, but this thread is so good that we'll make an exception.
* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
C'est bon
For my first trip to Poland I learned how to say “Sorry, I can’t speak Polish“ in Polish, with a perfect BBC Polish accent. I figured it was the least I could do. Unfortunately, it was treated as a NOP. People would simply repeat what they said but with even more explanation. In retrospect I can imagine that if someone said “sorry, I can’t speak English“ in an accent in English I might make the same mistake.
A couple of years later I ended up with a beautiful Polish girlfriend and she spoke no English. In six weeks with the help of a pocket phrase book and Polish/English dictionary constantly by my side I could hold a conversation in Polish perfectly well. The things that motivate us…
A couple of years later I ended up with a beautiful Polish girlfriend and she spoke no English. In six weeks with the help of a pocket phrase book and Polish/English dictionary constantly by my side I could hold a conversation in Polish perfectly well. The things that motivate us…
Early 20th c. Paris accents always bring back memories memories of Céline [1].
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb_ZA_ZwRxA
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb_ZA_ZwRxA
Is this the first podcast in our history?
People placed a lot more 'art' into their speech than people nowadays. You hear it in the old English of England as well with the particularity of enunciation. Speech was the main interface of communication compared to today's more logocentric and multimedia audio visual world. In our age we appear to place that art into crafting text messages (nuances of capitalisation, punctuation, abbreviations, emojis etc.).
There's a huge selection bias at play. Back then being recorded was a big deal and quite rare, so what little of it survives to this day was probably not representative of the bulk of how people talked.
Also back then people traveled less (especially in the lower classes) which probably made accents stronger and more easily identifiable. Now it's routine for people of all classes to move to a different part of the country for studies or work, and you have mass media spamming a somewhat "standard" Parisian French across the country.
And speech is still the main interface of communication. In general when people send casual texts they'll try to emulate the spoken language, including nonstandard inflections and spelling changes etc...
If anything on average we probably pay a lot less attention to the written word than we used to because we use it so much more and for much more casual conversation. Few people used to write "wanna grab sumthin 2 eat?" a few decades ago.
Also back then people traveled less (especially in the lower classes) which probably made accents stronger and more easily identifiable. Now it's routine for people of all classes to move to a different part of the country for studies or work, and you have mass media spamming a somewhat "standard" Parisian French across the country.
And speech is still the main interface of communication. In general when people send casual texts they'll try to emulate the spoken language, including nonstandard inflections and spelling changes etc...
If anything on average we probably pay a lot less attention to the written word than we used to because we use it so much more and for much more casual conversation. Few people used to write "wanna grab sumthin 2 eat?" a few decades ago.
Perhaps being recorded was a big deal back then. So they made more effort. Today it is common to have ones speech recorded, even for mass media.
One of the highlighted characteristic of this recording, is it is a live conversation, not something rehearsed.
So, while what you said may be true for radio broadcasts, I am not sure it is at play here even if the interviewee knows he is being recorded.
So, while what you said may be true for radio broadcasts, I am not sure it is at play here even if the interviewee knows he is being recorded.
In 1912, the recording equipment would have been quite conspicuous.
I think this is hugely reaching, as though some random french craftsman is consciously making an art of his speech. It's just an accent. Accents come and go.
No, it's really not. The spoken French has simplified over time and lost nuances in the process. It also shows if you compare tv news from the fifties and now. The parent remark is not about accent.
It has gained new nuances in the process. I wouldn't call it a simplification, given that foreign speakers often struggle with some of the finer points of slang.
I would not say that nuances were lost. At most, word usage and the way nuances are expressed have changed. People from the 1910s just happen to make use of many words that have fallen out of use for the people living in 2021.
Someone from 1910 would have a hard time understanding all the neologisms that were introduced after two world wars and decolonization until today.
For us from 2021, someone from 1912 uses words that are commonly found in written works from the same period (and after). This is why we feel it sounds like 'art'. Written words live way longer than spoken words.
Even today, common spoken French is very different from common written French.
Someone from 1910 would have a hard time understanding all the neologisms that were introduced after two world wars and decolonization until today.
For us from 2021, someone from 1912 uses words that are commonly found in written works from the same period (and after). This is why we feel it sounds like 'art'. Written words live way longer than spoken words.
Even today, common spoken French is very different from common written French.
But what has that to do with making an art of speech? Nothing to indicate literacy has made speech "unartful".
Born in the wrong generation? I think the 'art' part you mention is just different nowadays.
I mean one of my favorite channels on youtube is a pair of disembodied Canadian hands and voice, he has a way with words: https://youtu.be/toewD0VInlc. Here's a dictionary (do set it to show more than 10 at a time): https://codepen.io/LegoLife/full/YVXbMR
I mean one of my favorite channels on youtube is a pair of disembodied Canadian hands and voice, he has a way with words: https://youtu.be/toewD0VInlc. Here's a dictionary (do set it to show more than 10 at a time): https://codepen.io/LegoLife/full/YVXbMR
I don't know if I would call that art, if we're talking about the traditional Parisian accent that is linked here (a popular accent, mostly used by lower classes). Today it sounds rather uneducated, and although it is easier to understand than many other local French accents, it doesn't sound especially clearer than modern speech.
Although it might sound clearer to English speakers because it features more word-level stress while standard French doesn't really have it (but this has not been lost recently).
Although it might sound clearer to English speakers because it features more word-level stress while standard French doesn't really have it (but this has not been lost recently).
I studied French for many years in high-school and college. I've since forgotten much of it, but I was able to easily follow this "uneducated" accent. At times I found myself not even needing to read the subtitles. I had forgotten some of the meanings, but I could pick out the words and structure. Compare this to when I was learning French: most of the spoken material was in a more modern accent and was spoken much more quickly (as is de rigueur). I wonder if some of these older accents may be useful in teaching.
Similarly I've been learning Spanish the past few years, and the most comprehensible accents are those from Guatemala, Nicaragua, and Honduras--some of the poorest Spanish-speaking countries. I cannot for the life of me understand a heavy Mexican or Chilean accent, but I can easily follow Guatemalan. It's interesting from a socio-linguistic perspective if nothing else.
Similarly I've been learning Spanish the past few years, and the most comprehensible accents are those from Guatemala, Nicaragua, and Honduras--some of the poorest Spanish-speaking countries. I cannot for the life of me understand a heavy Mexican or Chilean accent, but I can easily follow Guatemalan. It's interesting from a socio-linguistic perspective if nothing else.
No. The sentences are more elaborate and pronunciation, while heavily emphased in comparison with modern casual french, doesn't suffer yet from "word eating". Links(?) between words are also clearer, less mumbled together.
England/the UK is also a bit of a special case with its strong class system. Your accent is important socially in that regard.
This is still the case today but was even more so and educated upper classes people were taught to speak 'properly'. That very posh accent you hear in old British films and old BBC footage is called "traditional received pronunciation(RP)" [1].
That being said, accent is a social marker almost everywhere. It certainly is one in France, including because the country is very centralised on Paris and regional accents are usually deemed 'inferior' (it's similar to England, tbh). These days in France the accent and way of speaking you want to avoid at all cost is "l'accent des cités", i.e. the accent of people, often of foreign descent, from the bad suburban areas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
This is still the case today but was even more so and educated upper classes people were taught to speak 'properly'. That very posh accent you hear in old British films and old BBC footage is called "traditional received pronunciation(RP)" [1].
That being said, accent is a social marker almost everywhere. It certainly is one in France, including because the country is very centralised on Paris and regional accents are usually deemed 'inferior' (it's similar to England, tbh). These days in France the accent and way of speaking you want to avoid at all cost is "l'accent des cités", i.e. the accent of people, often of foreign descent, from the bad suburban areas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
The one thing that is as steady and unavoidable as language change is people complaining about language change.
Incredible to hear this accent but also the fact that it's completely clear and comprehensible, if different sounding, than the modern Parisian accent!
What I found endearing about the guy being interviewed was that he would often start off his sentences with "Ahhhh".
It’s striking how much he sounds like my grand-mother who was born in 1920 about 400 m from there (Luxembourg). Same attention to language without being aristocratic or effete; same reluctance to sound slow.
So is there a big difference between the artisan’s accent and modern day Parisian accents?
Other than the recording quality and lack of modern fillers like ben ouais bof quoi etc, I can’t personally tell.
It’s markedly less refined than modern Parisian French, though I mostly hang out in District 7. Your mileage may vary.
They speak like my grand mother pretty much (who's not from paris but from the south). Slow, old words and expressions, same intonation towards the end.
It's very sing-songey - more ups and downs in the cadence. I quite like how easy it was to understand (and slow!), compared to modern Parisian French.
Sounds like my grandfather.
it's me, or it sounds a bit like french swiss accent?
This is a French language article. I don't understand what this is supposed to be about.
Is everyone commenting so far French?
Is everyone commenting so far French?
> Is everyone commenting so far French?
You don't have to be French to understand French. There are other countries where French is the main language, and you can speak French as your second (or third, ..) language.
You can use DeepL or Google Translate to translate to a language you understand.
You don't have to be French to understand French. There are other countries where French is the main language, and you can speak French as your second (or third, ..) language.
You can use DeepL or Google Translate to translate to a language you understand.
>You don't have to be French to understand French. There are other countries where French is the main language, and you can speak French as your second (or third, ..) language.
Obviously. I still don't understand why this is on frontpage.
Obviously. I still don't understand why this is on frontpage.
Using the novel technology of the time (gramophone) to record hyper-local accents and witness someone discovering his own accent, probably one of the first ever to do so.
It's an interesting turning point in the history of modern technology, a bit like the first time someone saw himself in a picture or in a movie.
It's an interesting turning point in the history of modern technology, a bit like the first time someone saw himself in a picture or in a movie.
1912, the content would fit the term antique. It denotes, with proof, how accents evolve. The proof is relatively unique for its age. Hence, it is historic, it is history. Relevant history, even, given the uniqueness.
For me, personally (YMMV), I am going to link it to my mother (born 1951, my father passed away) who has been to Paris in the 70s with my father, as well as with me about 10 years ago. She's also far better in French than I am. I'm curious on her take. Same with my mother-in-law; she loves the French language.
Here's another example which shows how society changes. A Trip Down Market Street [1], San Francisco a couple of days or weeks before the 1906 earthquake. You can take from it what you want, what I found interesting I commented on in that item [2].
If people upvoted, it was deemed interesting. Regardless, you don't have to enjoy it. I know this is primarily a native English speaking website, but does that mean interesting history from outside of native English speaking regions is forbidden?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15944621
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034871
For me, personally (YMMV), I am going to link it to my mother (born 1951, my father passed away) who has been to Paris in the 70s with my father, as well as with me about 10 years ago. She's also far better in French than I am. I'm curious on her take. Same with my mother-in-law; she loves the French language.
Here's another example which shows how society changes. A Trip Down Market Street [1], San Francisco a couple of days or weeks before the 1906 earthquake. You can take from it what you want, what I found interesting I commented on in that item [2].
If people upvoted, it was deemed interesting. Regardless, you don't have to enjoy it. I know this is primarily a native English speaking website, but does that mean interesting history from outside of native English speaking regions is forbidden?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15944621
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034871
Anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity is on-topic here
I don't know French at all (I'm one of those so-called monolinguals, aka 'American'), but I can generally understand enough of any romance language to get by, at least if there's subtitles.
Interestingly, the guidelines say nothing about non-English language submissions. I think every now and then this is okay although obviously it would become a problem for moderation if it happened all the time.
One can read the french language without being french.
Sure, many Canadians do it everyday ;)
Beside it, there are 300 million French speakers worldwide today, up almost 10% since 2014, and a recent survey showed that 44% of them live in sub-Saharan Africa.
By 2050, a full 85% of French speakers could live on the continent, according to an estimate by an organisation that monitors statistics on who speaks the language.
Beside it, there are 300 million French speakers worldwide today, up almost 10% since 2014, and a recent survey showed that 44% of them live in sub-Saharan Africa.
By 2050, a full 85% of French speakers could live on the continent, according to an estimate by an organisation that monitors statistics on who speaks the language.
Pro tip: memorize the “stop words” (ie closed word classes: prepositions, pronouns, determiner, function words, modal verbs) of romance languages and you’ll be able to comprehend almost all simple text in all of them.
“Trust me, I’m European”.
“Trust me, I’m European”.
Irish person here, but I speak French.
Found the recording surprisingly understandable.
Of course (French) sub-titles help...
It's more about French language. It can possibly be interesting to listen even if you don't speak French.
I'm not French but it is my second language.
Turns out understanding a heavy Auvergnat accent is... difficult! I wrestled with the accent a couple of weeks, but after a while it 'clicked'. This was pretty much a matter of 'waking up and not having to translate it in your mind', a very strange sensation. I learned to distinct several accents: Parisian and Marseillais are different beasts, and Swiss-french is also different (I totally dig their counting system though, septante, huitante et nonante makes so much more sense).
Also, I learned that the french in school is nothing like the french they speak in France. Sure, you get by and they'll understand you, but french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.
Nowadays people think I'm a Walloon (French-speaking from Belgium, while I'm Dutch), which is a great compliment to me!