A new chapter – full-time working from a van in a forest(ghuntley.com)
ghuntley.com
A new chapter – full-time working from a van in a forest
https://ghuntley.com/a-new-chapter
240 comments
The landlord has to make the same repairs you would, and still turn a profit, at a margin likely higher than a mortgage’s interest rate. So that nice saved-up vacation money would still go away eventually.
For me the nag was about all the thing we wanted to do to the house but couldn’t because it was a rental.
To each their own I guess - there are fair points for both approaches. Do what makes sense financially and keeps you happy / less worried :)
For me the nag was about all the thing we wanted to do to the house but couldn’t because it was a rental.
To each their own I guess - there are fair points for both approaches. Do what makes sense financially and keeps you happy / less worried :)
They don't have to turn a profit from the rent. Many operate at a loss in a bet to build wealth from equity gains.
There's levels to it. If they bought the place cash, then the only thing they have to cover is the property taxes and maintenance. They are still getting a return on investment, but it's like 5% per year (assuming property values track inflation). You can see this in denser metros, where they put more cash down, thus reducing their returns.
If they bought it 20% down and want to cash flow for a goal of 8% cash on cash, that's another type of return on investment. If the property value tracks inflation, their return is probably closer to 20% yearly.
Also they can shelter that income through depreciation, mortgage interest, expenses, etc.
If they bought it 20% down and want to cash flow for a goal of 8% cash on cash, that's another type of return on investment. If the property value tracks inflation, their return is probably closer to 20% yearly.
Also they can shelter that income through depreciation, mortgage interest, expenses, etc.
So the landlord has to sell the property to make a profit? That may not be the best outcome either for the people who rent it.
HELOC
HIC! THANKSC FORC POSTINGC!
HELOC, HELOC again[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_equity_line_of_credit
(As The Cars might say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3mjTpZk3Ao)
(As The Cars might say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3mjTpZk3Ao)
I've come to believe that really what should determine your choice to buy a house or condo comes down just to circumstance or the leaning of your preference. If your tendency is to want a comfortable space that you can make your own, then make that your goal. Likewise if you have innumerable familial or professional long term constraints. If however most of your interests have nothing to do with being stationary and modifying or maintaining your home, then that pretty well points you in a different direction. Likewise again if you have no hard long-term constraints. You can look to other things like financial capability or potential investment returns, but I think the other considerations are more critical.
But you get to keep the money you'd spend on buying the house/apartment which you can then invest into other assets. Also, who repairs what is down to agreement. I've always been renting (it's not that uncommon here, in Europe, though it is less common here, in Hungary) and the agreement was always that all repairs that are due to proper usage is to be paid for by the landlord but any damage is to be paid for by the renter (me).
Now the little repairs that were due during these years (in 3 different downtown apartments) always went like this: I tell the landlord that something needs to be fixed, they tell me to call someone (or sometimes they send someone they know) and I pay for it, get the invoice which we then deduct from the rent next month. No extra profit made on the repairs. You can say that it is priced in the rent, but then that's the rent (which will be subject to competition). Yes, obviously they are looking to make some meaningful return on their investment. Whether that's higher than the mortgage's interest rate depends a lot on when they actually bought the property. But in an equilibrium the two should be pretty close because if they start to diverge too much people will either stop renting or they will stop buying apartments (and do the other).
Now the little repairs that were due during these years (in 3 different downtown apartments) always went like this: I tell the landlord that something needs to be fixed, they tell me to call someone (or sometimes they send someone they know) and I pay for it, get the invoice which we then deduct from the rent next month. No extra profit made on the repairs. You can say that it is priced in the rent, but then that's the rent (which will be subject to competition). Yes, obviously they are looking to make some meaningful return on their investment. Whether that's higher than the mortgage's interest rate depends a lot on when they actually bought the property. But in an equilibrium the two should be pretty close because if they start to diverge too much people will either stop renting or they will stop buying apartments (and do the other).
Margin on rent is always higher for several reasons: risk (the landlord remains hamstrung by a mortgage regardless of whether they have a tenant or not), privilege (not everyone can afford the downpayment, have good enough income history to convince the bank) or convenience (not everyone is interested in settling 10-20-30 years and bother with the hassle and costs of buying.)
Even assuming the margin on rent is similar to the interest on a mortgage, mortgages end. Renting does not.
So financially, unless the mortgage is much more expensive, buying is a better decision.
So financially, unless the mortgage is much more expensive, buying is a better decision.
Again: you either invest into a realty, that happens to be your home, so that you don't have to pay rent, or you pay a rent and you invest into something else. You have to always consider the opportunity cost before you decide which one is a better decision. And it will depend on the market.
> The landlord has to make the same repairs you would, and still turn a profit, at a margin likely higher than a mortgage’s interest rate
That's unlikely, if the rented space is part of a complex. The complex repairs are amortized across all the units. The issue is about cost per square footage. Given you don't have to pay for the same square footage (not the full lot, only the space your unit and parking occupies) it's almost always lower.
That's unlikely, if the rented space is part of a complex. The complex repairs are amortized across all the units. The issue is about cost per square footage. Given you don't have to pay for the same square footage (not the full lot, only the space your unit and parking occupies) it's almost always lower.
>The landlord has to make the same repairs you would, and still turn a profit, at a margin likely higher than a mortgage’s interest rate.
Many (most?) rentals in my area (in Scandinavia) is not for-profit and get cheap loans to build. Just like the utility company (electricity, heat, water, fiber). You can get permission to improve and if it is good for the environment you get some of the money back if you move out.
Many (most?) rentals in my area (in Scandinavia) is not for-profit and get cheap loans to build. Just like the utility company (electricity, heat, water, fiber). You can get permission to improve and if it is good for the environment you get some of the money back if you move out.
Yes, but the landlord does this repairs pre-tax and all the repairs are deductible.
Only against rental income right? Otherwise one could get a tax break simply by renting their own house to themselves. If just against rental income, then there still isn’t a difference (they get a tax break because tenants pay rent and for the repairs indirectly post tax).
Also, they can’t both be pretax and deductible. The former, the money never shows up on taxes at all, the latter they show up as a subtraction on taxable income.
Also, they can’t both be pretax and deductible. The former, the money never shows up on taxes at all, the latter they show up as a subtraction on taxable income.
I am not a tax specialist, nor do we know which country we are discussion (EU, US, Australia, like in the post).
But it may make more sense to buy real estate to rent out to others and live somewhere else for rent.
If a company holds a few apartments (and getting rid of non-paying renters can be tricky in some jurisdictions) then you can deduct interest payments, repairs etc.
If you live in your own house I don't know how much you can deduct mortgage payments. And if you need a new roof then you have to pay for this by your after tax income salary. Big difference.
I am eyeing a loft in an EU country. I wish I had the money to buy it, renovate it and making loft apartments out of it. One I would rent for myself (from my company).
But it may make more sense to buy real estate to rent out to others and live somewhere else for rent.
If a company holds a few apartments (and getting rid of non-paying renters can be tricky in some jurisdictions) then you can deduct interest payments, repairs etc.
If you live in your own house I don't know how much you can deduct mortgage payments. And if you need a new roof then you have to pay for this by your after tax income salary. Big difference.
I am eyeing a loft in an EU country. I wish I had the money to buy it, renovate it and making loft apartments out of it. One I would rent for myself (from my company).
I still don't understand how would it be cheaper if you're paying rent with money that was already taxed - deductions would only make sure it's not taxed again. Maybe you could avoid paying VAT?
Another situation would be if your company is financing the apartment directly with pre-tax money that didn't make a round-trip as income, though that's quite a different situation than most rentals, and may be a big no-no (or may be acceptable in your jurisdiction - no idea).
Another situation would be if your company is financing the apartment directly with pre-tax money that didn't make a round-trip as income, though that's quite a different situation than most rentals, and may be a big no-no (or may be acceptable in your jurisdiction - no idea).
You earn 100k as a wage slave. After 30% Tax 70k. (Random numbers). Now you pay for your roof 40k. You have 30k left. (Likely your would take a loan but lets ignore this now). The bottom line: You pay 30k in taxes and 40k for the roof and have 30k left.
Landlord has 100k rental income. To make it simple, he has to pay 30% tax too. But he has now another bisness expense of 40k for the roof, so he gets only 60k income. Not he pays 30% income tax on that, so he has only 42k left. But this is 12k more than you because the roof was a business expense.
Landlord has 100k rental income. To make it simple, he has to pay 30% tax too. But he has now another bisness expense of 40k for the roof, so he gets only 60k income. Not he pays 30% income tax on that, so he has only 42k left. But this is 12k more than you because the roof was a business expense.
The landlord doesn’t get to deduct expenses on their own residence. They can deduct expenses on other people’s residences for sure, but one end or the other is taxed at 30%. The landlord isn’t coming out ahead unless they are able to fudge numbers on their taxes in the confusion of their more complicated tax return. They can also deduct 25k in losses over rental revenue from personal income given lots of rules (like you can’t make more than $100k to get the full deduction and it phases out after $150k).
Landlord here. This implies perfect pricing, but it's still moist robots like me making very imperfect decisions.
How is your security of tenure renting where you are?
Sadly in my country, our rental laws are still firmly stuck in the "quarter-acre" dream of the 1960s, where renting was only something you did at university before shortly buying your first house with a tiny deposit and a Government backed home loan.
These days as house prices rocket, only now are changes being made to tenancy laws to give tenants some more security. Back in my renting days, I had to move 4 times in 5 years because the landlord wanted to move in, or they sold it, or the farm my cottage was on had been sold and the new owner wanted it for workers, etc.
So here, at least, owning removed a significant amount of stress for me - I know I'll still be living here in 5 years, I haven't been able to say that until now.
Sadly in my country, our rental laws are still firmly stuck in the "quarter-acre" dream of the 1960s, where renting was only something you did at university before shortly buying your first house with a tiny deposit and a Government backed home loan.
These days as house prices rocket, only now are changes being made to tenancy laws to give tenants some more security. Back in my renting days, I had to move 4 times in 5 years because the landlord wanted to move in, or they sold it, or the farm my cottage was on had been sold and the new owner wanted it for workers, etc.
So here, at least, owning removed a significant amount of stress for me - I know I'll still be living here in 5 years, I haven't been able to say that until now.
>>There is always that little nag in the back of your mind regarding a house
Do you not have any nagging thoughts about renting though? Because I went the exact opposite way. I was always super stressed when renting, because I knew that at the end of our contract the landlord could tell us to leave. Especially when we were on a monthly rolling contract, my stress about this was probably 10/10.
Now that we bought a house I sleep well - if anything goes wrong I can probably repair it myself, in case of appliances I can buy second hand ones cheap or again, try the repair myself ...and for things I can't repair myself(ie - boiler) I have insurance for. It's about 10x less stressful than renting to me.
Do you not have any nagging thoughts about renting though? Because I went the exact opposite way. I was always super stressed when renting, because I knew that at the end of our contract the landlord could tell us to leave. Especially when we were on a monthly rolling contract, my stress about this was probably 10/10.
Now that we bought a house I sleep well - if anything goes wrong I can probably repair it myself, in case of appliances I can buy second hand ones cheap or again, try the repair myself ...and for things I can't repair myself(ie - boiler) I have insurance for. It's about 10x less stressful than renting to me.
>because I knew that at the end of our contract the landlord could tell us to leave.
Luckily this can't happen in most of the EU. Even if the contract say X years you can't throw people out after the contract runs out unless you are moving in yourself.
Luckily this can't happen in most of the EU. Even if the contract say X years you can't throw people out after the contract runs out unless you are moving in yourself.
Definitely not true in the UK(and wasn't true when we were still in the EU) - if the contract comes to an end and the landlord doesn't want to extend it then that's it, you have to move out. They don't have to give any reason.
Ah yes, the assured shorthold tenancy, the default form of rental contract in the UK since the mid-1990s. That was an attempt to goose the housing market in a stagnant economy, together with buy-to-let mortgages. It was embarrassing to see the national newspapers promote the scheme enthusiatically.
Asset inflation is great when you hold assets, but the husing bubble is one of the ways the establishment pulled the ladder up from the Millennials and later.
Asset inflation is great when you hold assets, but the husing bubble is one of the ways the establishment pulled the ladder up from the Millennials and later.
In Ireland sadly we have a Landlord culture and many landlords move people on regularly to ensure they don't get any rights or simply get too comfortable.
You have insurance for major appliances ? Or do you mean a warranty?
Boiler insurance. £100 a year, includes a service, if the boiler breaks down it will be repaired or replaced. Similar thing is available for things like dishwashers and washing machines, but I have never seen the need.
Not op but our mortgage lender offers a “total home warranty” for like $8/month which covers appliances and systems (hvac, boiler, etc). It’s basically appliance insurance. And at that price it’s a pretty good deal when buying a used house.
You have similar anxieties with renting. "When will my landlord give me my 6 month notice?" Depending on your location and who you are finding an apartment for rent can't be easier. e.g. in Finland most landlords won't pick foreign names.
> 6 month notice
What alternative timeline is this?
What alternative timeline is this?
Come to Germany where it's almost impossible for a landlord to get rid of a tenant unless there are special circumstances and lots of time, effort and money involved by the landlord.
Europe :)
Nope :-)
In France I was given 2 weeks notice, immediately before Christmas.
The landlord sold the property I was in without telling me, then gave me 2 weeks.
That was difficult as I was booked to fly to the UK in 1 week.
Finding another place to live at Christmas is difficult. Doing everything to process it including moving within 1 week is difficult. Luckily for me, some Mormon friends came to visit, and when I told them my predicament, they did everything to help me move my stuff quickly to my new temporary place. Good people - thanks guys!
In January I had to find somewhere again, because I hadn't been find a suitable long term rental before Christmas.
In France I was given 2 weeks notice, immediately before Christmas.
The landlord sold the property I was in without telling me, then gave me 2 weeks.
That was difficult as I was booked to fly to the UK in 1 week.
Finding another place to live at Christmas is difficult. Doing everything to process it including moving within 1 week is difficult. Luckily for me, some Mormon friends came to visit, and when I told them my predicament, they did everything to help me move my stuff quickly to my new temporary place. Good people - thanks guys!
In January I had to find somewhere again, because I hadn't been find a suitable long term rental before Christmas.
This sounds very illegal. From what I know, in France the notice period is 1 month if it is "meublé", or 3 months if the appartment is empty.
Edit: actually, I just checked and that's for tenants. If the landlord wants to break the contract to sell the property, it's 3 months for "meublé", 6 months otherwise.
Edit: actually, I just checked and that's for tenants. If the landlord wants to break the contract to sell the property, it's 3 months for "meublé", 6 months otherwise.
Yes it's illegal in France, here is the official documentation:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F929
3 to 6 month with certified letter before the sale, and can only happen at lease renewal dates (every 3 years).
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F929
3 to 6 month with certified letter before the sale, and can only happen at lease renewal dates (every 3 years).
That's illegal. They can't throw you out even when the contract run out unless they are moving in themselves.
Where in Europe? In my experience (In Italy, Spain, Czech Republic) the notice period is 2 months.
We got 4 months in Ireland, but the statutory requirement was less than that for the time that we had been there. Had we been in the house another year os wo, it would have been 6 months.
Belgium, 6 months minimum with conditions.
UK.
Source: Frequently happened to me when I rented.
Source: Frequently happened to me when I rented.
UK.
Currently I can be given 2 months notice at any time.
This is actually preferable to on the earlier time with this tenancy, where I could be given 2 months notice and also the landlord makes an active decision whether to renew or decline every 12 months.
In fact they always send a no-reason formal eviction notice 3 months before the end of each 12 months renewal as a matter of policy, just to rub it in.
(I would be surprised if that's legal. It seems against the spirit of eviction law where timescales are supposed to begin when a tenant refuses to leave, not months before they are supposed to leave)
On one occasion they did decline to renew, giving no reason. They changed their mind at the last moment after I had a chat with the landlord's property manager. That was a source of great stress for me, not even knowing why.
Eventually I found out. The agency (not landlord) told me, to my face, that they didn't know the why, couldn't get a reason, but the landlord had decided not to renew. But later the landlord's property manager told me that the agency had lied to my face and the landlord did not initiate the decline.
It was the agency who had made the recommendation. I saw it advertised briefly at ~35% raise, so I suspect that was their motivation. These are not rent-controlled, I already pay a substantially above inflation annual raise, so it's not stuck on an ancient rate. If they had got a tenant in to replace me, not only would they have increased their agency fees as a percentage, they would have charged the landlord additional fees for processing a new tenant as well.
Currently I can be given 2 months notice at any time.
This is actually preferable to on the earlier time with this tenancy, where I could be given 2 months notice and also the landlord makes an active decision whether to renew or decline every 12 months.
In fact they always send a no-reason formal eviction notice 3 months before the end of each 12 months renewal as a matter of policy, just to rub it in.
(I would be surprised if that's legal. It seems against the spirit of eviction law where timescales are supposed to begin when a tenant refuses to leave, not months before they are supposed to leave)
On one occasion they did decline to renew, giving no reason. They changed their mind at the last moment after I had a chat with the landlord's property manager. That was a source of great stress for me, not even knowing why.
Eventually I found out. The agency (not landlord) told me, to my face, that they didn't know the why, couldn't get a reason, but the landlord had decided not to renew. But later the landlord's property manager told me that the agency had lied to my face and the landlord did not initiate the decline.
It was the agency who had made the recommendation. I saw it advertised briefly at ~35% raise, so I suspect that was their motivation. These are not rent-controlled, I already pay a substantially above inflation annual raise, so it's not stuck on an ancient rate. If they had got a tenant in to replace me, not only would they have increased their agency fees as a percentage, they would have charged the landlord additional fees for processing a new tenant as well.
Sadly, the UK rental market is terrible.
Real estate managers are incentivized to change tenants frequently to generate more fees. Sometimes, this also goes against the interest of the landlord as depending on his contract he might need to pay pretty hefty readvertising fees.
Real estate managers are incentivized to change tenants frequently to generate more fees. Sometimes, this also goes against the interest of the landlord as depending on his contract he might need to pay pretty hefty readvertising fees.
Yeah, the UK rental market is pretty bad.
My understanding is those fees are no longer legal.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tenant-fees-act
See the section near the bottom starting "From 1 June 2019, the only payments that landlords or letting agents can charge to tenants in relation to new contracts are:"
Anecdotally, it seems these fees have indeed disappeared, although few people I know now live in rental accommodation in the UK.
My understanding is those fees are no longer legal.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tenant-fees-act
See the section near the bottom starting "From 1 June 2019, the only payments that landlords or letting agents can charge to tenants in relation to new contracts are:"
Anecdotally, it seems these fees have indeed disappeared, although few people I know now live in rental accommodation in the UK.
Sure, the fees have disappeared for tenants, but not for landlords! I know because I've been renting myself till last summer. It's a step in the right direction.
In a place such as Oxford or Cambridge you have tons of overseas landlords. Thus, agents are typically extracting fees from them by claiming the tenant has left and the house needs to be readvertised. But, in reality, the tenant wanted to renew the contract. Since they are not on-site, let alone managing the property themselves, it's easy to trick them.
In other words, agents often have a perverse incentive to force a high tenant turnover. Some agents are not like this because they are more ethical, or because they guarantee a minimum income per calendar month. But, on average, it's a very nasty market as you've noted.
In a place such as Oxford or Cambridge you have tons of overseas landlords. Thus, agents are typically extracting fees from them by claiming the tenant has left and the house needs to be readvertised. But, in reality, the tenant wanted to renew the contract. Since they are not on-site, let alone managing the property themselves, it's easy to trick them.
In other words, agents often have a perverse incentive to force a high tenant turnover. Some agents are not like this because they are more ethical, or because they guarantee a minimum income per calendar month. But, on average, it's a very nasty market as you've noted.
Finland. Never seen or heard of notice period on a "normal" rental less than 6 months. Tenant's usually can give 1 month notice. Landlord 6 months.
I am buying a place in the capital city of my country for this exact same reason. I want to travel and be free to do what I want, yet I also need a place to live in for the months that I'm not away traveling. I could rent something but that would be the same price as my mortgage and it will be lost money anyway. Instead I picked buying so only a small part (interest) is lost, but everything else goes back into my own pocket. So even if I'm only spending 50% in my own place it is still cheaper then renting.
However, you are talking about things that I don't really have to worry about since it is an apartment. So maybe there is a slight difference here.
However, you are talking about things that I don't really have to worry about since it is an apartment. So maybe there is a slight difference here.
It's important to realise that you can't compare your rent with your mortgage payments without factoring in a lot of things. The rent you pay includes things like taxes, insurances, upkeep, depreciation, risk and opportunity costs that your landlord has to pay while still coming out ahead. And he has to deal with all the administrative things too. So if you're a homeowner yourself, ask whether you're still coming out ahead carrying those costs yourself, plus the risk that something around your house breaks, plus the risk that your home might lose value for another reason, plus the opportunity cost of your down-payment not being invested otherwise (e.g. stocks). At the end of the day, it depends on the location and how far apart the purchase prices have diverged from rents. With the current economic situation and low interest rates, house prices where I live have mostly broken away from rents so significantly that it doesn't make any sense to buy from a financial standpoint.
I've checked your profile and saw you are living in Germany, I am living in The Netherlands and buying in Amsterdam. I do not know if it is different in Germany so I cannot say too much about that. However, regardless of what the situation is, in the end the landlord will have to come out ahead when you are paying rent. Only by that definition it should save you money in the long run when buying your own place.
The only argument that can be made is that the money you do not spend on your own house is money that could be put into a different investment like the stock market. But in NL renting a place is roughly as expensive as my monthly mortgage payments. So both situations it is money I cannot put in the stock market. Insurance and heating is being added on top of those monthly payments regardless of the option you pick.
The only argument that can be made is that the money you do not spend on your own house is money that could be put into a different investment like the stock market. But in NL renting a place is roughly as expensive as my monthly mortgage payments. So both situations it is money I cannot put in the stock market. Insurance and heating is being added on top of those monthly payments regardless of the option you pick.
In Berlin your rent will most surely be less than mortgage payment unless you take a very very long mortgage (like 50 years). Plus you need a down payment.
The reason it makes sense for landlords is that they have nothing else to do with the money if interest rate is zero or close to it - the alternative is slowly losing it (or higher risk stuff like stocks).
So they slowly build equity while not profiting every month, counting on prices continuing to rise for their long-term profit and if they run several properties you can get economies of scale going for managing them.
The reason it makes sense for landlords is that they have nothing else to do with the money if interest rate is zero or close to it - the alternative is slowly losing it (or higher risk stuff like stocks).
So they slowly build equity while not profiting every month, counting on prices continuing to rise for their long-term profit and if they run several properties you can get economies of scale going for managing them.
On a month to month outgoing basis I can imagine you might be correct that renting works out cheaper in some cases.
However, it's missing something I think is important. In my case we have a £335k home at 1.6% interest which means every year we pay £5000 in interest, but we paying off around £15000 of the principal on the loan. After 10 years we could sell the house, spend the £150k+ (assuming the home value stays the same) we've paid off on a sailing boat and head off around the world or whatever takes our fancy.
If we'd have rented we might have been able to save maybe £200 a month in outgoings. Even invested in index funds it's unlikely to come close.
However, it's missing something I think is important. In my case we have a £335k home at 1.6% interest which means every year we pay £5000 in interest, but we paying off around £15000 of the principal on the loan. After 10 years we could sell the house, spend the £150k+ (assuming the home value stays the same) we've paid off on a sailing boat and head off around the world or whatever takes our fancy.
If we'd have rented we might have been able to save maybe £200 a month in outgoings. Even invested in index funds it's unlikely to come close.
The situation in the UK is different than Germany - there are a lot less tenants protections & a lot less rent control (almost every renter in Germany is enjoying some sort of rent control - at the very least the landlords can't easily raise rent on an existing tenant and can't easily end the contract - which is by default unlimited in duration).
Rent is kept artificially low & safe in Germany via legislation, where as purchasing happens on the free market.
Also culturally Germans are very fiscally conservative and risk averse, it is not as common to take up debt (=mortgage) as in the UK or the US.
Rent is kept artificially low & safe in Germany via legislation, where as purchasing happens on the free market.
Also culturally Germans are very fiscally conservative and risk averse, it is not as common to take up debt (=mortgage) as in the UK or the US.
It doesn’t work like that.
You certainly paid a tax when you bought your home. I don’t know how it’s called or how much is it in your area, but you have to add that to the cost of what you bought, or deduce it from what you will sell (assuming the home value stays the same).
Then you also have to deduce all the real estate yearly taxes. And then all the costs associated with the real estate property itself (the ones you wouldn’t have to pay as a renter). Then you’ll have to deduce the real estate agency fees.
Then and only then you can start making some comparisons between buying and renting.
You certainly paid a tax when you bought your home. I don’t know how it’s called or how much is it in your area, but you have to add that to the cost of what you bought, or deduce it from what you will sell (assuming the home value stays the same).
Then you also have to deduce all the real estate yearly taxes. And then all the costs associated with the real estate property itself (the ones you wouldn’t have to pay as a renter). Then you’ll have to deduce the real estate agency fees.
Then and only then you can start making some comparisons between buying and renting.
In the UK there is stamp duty which you pay when you buy a house. First time buyers though get a pretty good deal, nothing on up to £250k, I think we paid around £2000.
However, there aren't property taxes which you wouldn't need to pay as a renter. The closest thing to my knowledge is council tax but that is the same whether you buy or rent.
On the other hand, I've spent hundreds of pounds on rental contracts, referral fees, unfair deposit deductions etc.
However, there aren't property taxes which you wouldn't need to pay as a renter. The closest thing to my knowledge is council tax but that is the same whether you buy or rent.
On the other hand, I've spent hundreds of pounds on rental contracts, referral fees, unfair deposit deductions etc.
All those things you mentioned in your last paragraph are illegal in Germany (or at least in Berlin). You just cant easily compare between countries like that - it can very well be that it "always" makes sense to buy in England because the rules ensure it while the opposite is true in another country.
The rental/real estate markets work differently in Austria and Germany and that's (partially) why home ownership patterns in those countries are so different to England's. Vienna and Berlin both have something close to 90% of the population renting rather than owning, and it's not because they are idiots.
There are massive incentives erected to keep renting tenant-friendly in a way that would never fly in a more capitalist country like the UK or the US.
The rental/real estate markets work differently in Austria and Germany and that's (partially) why home ownership patterns in those countries are so different to England's. Vienna and Berlin both have something close to 90% of the population renting rather than owning, and it's not because they are idiots.
There are massive incentives erected to keep renting tenant-friendly in a way that would never fly in a more capitalist country like the UK or the US.
I didn't suggest that buying always makes sense. I was only trying to point out that comparing month to month costs isn't a fair comparison, since a significant part of the money you put into a mortgage becomes available to you in the fullness of time. With rent, once you've paid it it's gone.
You're right, sorry I just wanted to reiterate as i often experienced that people in other countries don't understand how regulated the market is the German speaking countries.
E.g. many large american cities like chicago would have purchase prices similar to berlin but 2-3x the rental prices due to these regulations keeping Berliner rents artificially low.
Trying to actually check my vague memory: if numbeo[0] is anywhere near accurate (I anecdotally believe it's close enough to give you a good rough estimate) Berlin is both drastically more expensive to buy than Chicago (almost 50% more expensive) and drastically cheaper to rent (a bit over 40% cheaper).
Obviously this completely changes your buy vs rent calculous!
[0]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
E.g. many large american cities like chicago would have purchase prices similar to berlin but 2-3x the rental prices due to these regulations keeping Berliner rents artificially low.
Trying to actually check my vague memory: if numbeo[0] is anywhere near accurate (I anecdotally believe it's close enough to give you a good rough estimate) Berlin is both drastically more expensive to buy than Chicago (almost 50% more expensive) and drastically cheaper to rent (a bit over 40% cheaper).
Obviously this completely changes your buy vs rent calculous!
[0]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
Housing prices change. Rent prices change. Here in SoCal I was going to buy a place but the pandemic hit so we decided to rent.
Our rent payment is about half what we would pay if we bought. Just look at the last two places I rented: Rent1: $2500/mo Condo next door: $850k. That’s 4K mortgage and 1k HoA.
Rent2: $4100 Equivalent mortgage: $10k/mo
Doesn’t make sense to buy unless you are speculating on housing prices.
Our rent payment is about half what we would pay if we bought. Just look at the last two places I rented: Rent1: $2500/mo Condo next door: $850k. That’s 4K mortgage and 1k HoA.
Rent2: $4100 Equivalent mortgage: $10k/mo
Doesn’t make sense to buy unless you are speculating on housing prices.
Housing prices don't change (much) after you buy. Rent is at the mercy of your landlord and the market. Here in metro Milwaukee rents are up 30% since I bought a house, but my mortgage/taxes/insurance is up 1% (I pay $18/mo more now in taxes).
My home value has skyrocketed as well, but so has every other home. However, the growth cancels out, I get my home's growth as a sort of discount were I to sell and buy another home. It's called the housing ladder and is key to preserving wealth as your housing needs change and the market gets more expensive.
Your example works in shorter time frames, buying vs renting in a given year or 3. But over the long haul I've only regretted thinking like that in my 20s and not just snatching up a home and land.
It's easier to make a person who will need a house than it is to build a house, and it's extremely difficult to make more land to put a house on.
Edit: grammar/clarity
My home value has skyrocketed as well, but so has every other home. However, the growth cancels out, I get my home's growth as a sort of discount were I to sell and buy another home. It's called the housing ladder and is key to preserving wealth as your housing needs change and the market gets more expensive.
Your example works in shorter time frames, buying vs renting in a given year or 3. But over the long haul I've only regretted thinking like that in my 20s and not just snatching up a home and land.
It's easier to make a person who will need a house than it is to build a house, and it's extremely difficult to make more land to put a house on.
Edit: grammar/clarity
« in the end the landlord will have to come out ahead when you are paying rent » is way too simplistic I’m afraid. He doesn’t have to « come ahead », or at least not in the way you think he has to.
You don’t know how your landlord got the property you’re renting. He may purely and simply never bought it. Or he bought it when it was costing nothing for him, or on the reverse a lot which prevents him to sell. Or selling it would generate massive tax for him. Or it is a diversification strategy. Etc.
And to say « renting is roughly as expensive as my mortgage payment » to justify to buy is a very common and very bad argument that is built on a misconception of what is at stake.
When you buy a property, being a flat or a house, you have costs associated with it. A lot of them. Costs associated with the purchase and costs associated with the property.
First of all, you’ll have to pay some sort of one-off real estate tax when you buy. Then you will pay all the interests of your bank credit (which are higher the longer is your credit). Then you will pay all on the on-going real estate taxes. Then you will pay all the costs of the property itself (all the on-going things a renter do not have to pay, all the big 5-10 years maintenance tasks like frontage restauration).
So renting is bad only if it is costing more than all those costs during the period, minus the real estate price increase during the period.
I don’t know where you live but in a lot of big cities, it is actually way way cheaper to rent than to buy.
The truth is most people do not really look at the proper numbers when they want to justify to buy a property because there is a lot more involved in being the owner of the place than what people want to admit.
You don’t know how your landlord got the property you’re renting. He may purely and simply never bought it. Or he bought it when it was costing nothing for him, or on the reverse a lot which prevents him to sell. Or selling it would generate massive tax for him. Or it is a diversification strategy. Etc.
And to say « renting is roughly as expensive as my mortgage payment » to justify to buy is a very common and very bad argument that is built on a misconception of what is at stake.
When you buy a property, being a flat or a house, you have costs associated with it. A lot of them. Costs associated with the purchase and costs associated with the property.
First of all, you’ll have to pay some sort of one-off real estate tax when you buy. Then you will pay all the interests of your bank credit (which are higher the longer is your credit). Then you will pay all on the on-going real estate taxes. Then you will pay all the costs of the property itself (all the on-going things a renter do not have to pay, all the big 5-10 years maintenance tasks like frontage restauration).
So renting is bad only if it is costing more than all those costs during the period, minus the real estate price increase during the period.
I don’t know where you live but in a lot of big cities, it is actually way way cheaper to rent than to buy.
The truth is most people do not really look at the proper numbers when they want to justify to buy a property because there is a lot more involved in being the owner of the place than what people want to admit.
I do get the feeling that NL/Amsterdam is one of the few exceptions to everything you are saying. I am aware of all the costs but 3 key things to note here:
1) I am not paying the real estate tax for this apartment. (This is a coulance thing from the Dutch government and is only available till the first of april for houses above 400k EU.)
2) The rents in Amsterdam are roughly the same as my mortgage. The interest rates are at an all time low at 1.4% for 20 years.
3) Interest rates can be deducted from my income so I don't have to pay tax over it (either 36% or 49%). While rent cannot be deducted.
To give you an idea about numbers. My mortgage is around 440k with a monthly payment of +/- 1500eu (includes interest). For the same apartment a 1500eu rent a month isn't unheard of. On top of this you have to pay for electricity and heating yourself and the insurance. When renting the additional tax (e.g. waste or sewer) is also added on top of the monthly payment regardless of buying or renting. The only thing that you have to pay when buying is when things break down, or the so called 'VvE' which is an organisation maintaining the building itself.
So yes I do agree with the statement that it cannot easily be compared, but in the situation of The Netherlands I feel like this is the right choice to make.
Edit: Although, if you (or anyone) disagrees with it I am curious to know why.
To give you an idea about numbers. My mortgage is around 440k with a monthly payment of +/- 1500eu (includes interest). For the same apartment a 1500eu rent a month isn't unheard of. On top of this you have to pay for electricity and heating yourself and the insurance. When renting the additional tax (e.g. waste or sewer) is also added on top of the monthly payment regardless of buying or renting. The only thing that you have to pay when buying is when things break down, or the so called 'VvE' which is an organisation maintaining the building itself.
So yes I do agree with the statement that it cannot easily be compared, but in the situation of The Netherlands I feel like this is the right choice to make.
Edit: Although, if you (or anyone) disagrees with it I am curious to know why.
I am not disagreeing with you. I don’t know all the numbers for your case and I don’t want to compute everything for your specific scenario.
But I’m just saying that there is a general assumption in most discussions around buying versus renting that buying is always better. It’s not.
It’s the general argument « when you buy you don’t throw your money out the window ».
In reality you do throw money out the window when you buy, only differently, and I’m highlighting the numbers people usually do not take into account when they make their comparison.
Comparing mortgage payments and rents is usually not the good way to do that, because the costs when you buy are only partially monthly based.
One other number I didn’t mention above: real estate agency fees.
But I’m just saying that there is a general assumption in most discussions around buying versus renting that buying is always better. It’s not.
It’s the general argument « when you buy you don’t throw your money out the window ».
In reality you do throw money out the window when you buy, only differently, and I’m highlighting the numbers people usually do not take into account when they make their comparison.
Comparing mortgage payments and rents is usually not the good way to do that, because the costs when you buy are only partially monthly based.
One other number I didn’t mention above: real estate agency fees.
Another thing to consider: You should not compare to your entire mortgage payment--only to the interest portion of the payment. The principal portion of the payment is not an expense: It goes from one of your pockets to the other because it is your own home equity. Also you need to apply any tax advantage you get from mortgage interest(in the USA it's deductible), so subtract your effective tax rate. You also need to add to that your estimated property taxes / 12 (and that's often tax deductible), and add any expected yearly expenses / 12.
So mortgage_interest * (1-T) + property_taxes/12 * (1-T) + home_expenses/12. Compare that to rent payment.
So mortgage_interest * (1-T) + property_taxes/12 * (1-T) + home_expenses/12. Compare that to rent payment.
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What about using it as a vacation rebtal while away. There are probably companies that take care of the details. Personal stuff could be locked away somewhere.
I have quite the opposite experience: my stress level decreased since I own. I guess it depends on your financial comfort. Doing the vanlife is great but what happens if you lose your job and your van needs maintenance? Maybe add a downturn on the stock market. Suddenly you have nothing. It’s a very personal choice, for me traveling freely while being assured I have a place back home (albeit very minimalist) was needed.
I've been a landlord for ten years and I've always been a renter.
For people like me with no desire to have kids and minimal ownership of furniture and toys, renting is nice.
I've always wanted to be a renter for life, but recently I also have been thinking about buying some land in upstate New York or in the outskirts of some European city and building a livable structure like an A frame or a geodesic dome.
I do think urban housing prices are insane. My rental units were in the suburbs, and now I have vacation rentals in Southern Utah instead. So the rent price ratios made sense. In denser cities, the landlord would have to out like 50% down just to break even on the mortgage. Yes, they may be cash flowing, but just barely, and the nuance is they put a massive down payment. It just depends on location.
For those who need a general rule of thumb comparing rent vs mortgage, there's the 5% rule: https://www.pwlcapital.com/rent-or-own-your-home-5-rule/
For people like me with no desire to have kids and minimal ownership of furniture and toys, renting is nice.
I've always wanted to be a renter for life, but recently I also have been thinking about buying some land in upstate New York or in the outskirts of some European city and building a livable structure like an A frame or a geodesic dome.
I do think urban housing prices are insane. My rental units were in the suburbs, and now I have vacation rentals in Southern Utah instead. So the rent price ratios made sense. In denser cities, the landlord would have to out like 50% down just to break even on the mortgage. Yes, they may be cash flowing, but just barely, and the nuance is they put a massive down payment. It just depends on location.
For those who need a general rule of thumb comparing rent vs mortgage, there's the 5% rule: https://www.pwlcapital.com/rent-or-own-your-home-5-rule/
"...but our <A/C || roof || plumbing || appliance> is going to need to be replaced in the next year or so"
How does this prevent you from going on a trip? I don't understand. Mind to elaborate a bit?
How does this prevent you from going on a trip? I don't understand. Mind to elaborate a bit?
Many people don't have enough money to replace their roof and go on a trip in the same period.
Replacing our roof last year was 40.000USD, (250.000DKK). While we able to pay it off faster, it’s basically a 14 year bank loan. Not everyone, depending on country and salary, is able to get those loans at reasonable rate, but you’ll still need a new roof. That means saving like crazy and holidays get expensive pretty fast, and isn’t something you REALLY need, making it a place to save money.
Try saving to much on home maintenance and you risk damaging your property, lowering it’s value in the future. Owning a home is expensive, it’s still a sound finacial choice, depending on country and so on, but it has a running cost.
Try saving to much on home maintenance and you risk damaging your property, lowering it’s value in the future. Owning a home is expensive, it’s still a sound finacial choice, depending on country and so on, but it has a running cost.
Having a home is definitely expensive, but in my mind it also comes down to manage money.
When you get your pay, put aside money first and save for dedicated budgets.
Decide what budget you think is required in each slot.
Example: I want a house saving for min $30000 for unexpected and expected maintenance.
I want a minimum of $8000 for vacations.
Etc
Then, save as much as you can into those accounts until you reach their goal and then keep saving into them, but maybe lower the amount.
In the beginning (and if your out in time, this will be while you're DINKing) it might be rough, but it will be easier as your buffers stabilize.
When fixing the house, don't steal money from your travel buffer. And absolutely never take money from house buffer for travels. :-)
I think a lot of people spend way to much on luxury, like eating out or having three movie streaming services instead of none or one. And then they realize that "oops, no money left for savings this month neither"
Survival, savings, higher standard, then luxury, not the other way around.
When you get your pay, put aside money first and save for dedicated budgets.
Decide what budget you think is required in each slot.
Example: I want a house saving for min $30000 for unexpected and expected maintenance.
I want a minimum of $8000 for vacations.
Etc
Then, save as much as you can into those accounts until you reach their goal and then keep saving into them, but maybe lower the amount.
In the beginning (and if your out in time, this will be while you're DINKing) it might be rough, but it will be easier as your buffers stabilize.
When fixing the house, don't steal money from your travel buffer. And absolutely never take money from house buffer for travels. :-)
I think a lot of people spend way to much on luxury, like eating out or having three movie streaming services instead of none or one. And then they realize that "oops, no money left for savings this month neither"
Survival, savings, higher standard, then luxury, not the other way around.
40000USD!? Must be one hell of a roof. Where I live it’s less than a quarter of that unless you live in a McMansion.
It’s Denmark, and that was actually the cheapest offer. Half the cost is labour, but we opted for the cheaper cemet tiles, the alternative would have been clay tiles, like bricks, but for the roof.
It’s honestly a pretty good deal. Oh and we have a 25% VAT on everything, so your price is basically just what I have to pay in VAT.
It’s honestly a pretty good deal. Oh and we have a 25% VAT on everything, so your price is basically just what I have to pay in VAT.
But even when renting the roof still needs to be replaced. Owner pays for it, but it is financed from rent money.
Sure but the point is that you always pay the monthly rent no matter what instead of having to pay 40k one month because of the roof. Also, in some places, it’s actually cheaper to rent because properties are overvalued.
I don’t know how it works around the world, but maintenance of the property is normally factored into the rent. Large maintenance work won’t affect your rent so your expences are more predictable.
expenses are predictable, which may lower the stress level, which is the main part of the parent comment. However owners want to make money using the property, so rent is overall higher then the cost of owning the property including roof replacements.
The problem many home buyers face is that it has become normal to go deeply into debt to buy and maintain a house, so it is not like they pay rent into their own house ownership account which slowly accumulates reserves for costly maintenance. A house costs twice as much as its sale price and if one has to go into dept to buy it in the first place, one is not middle class.
Back in Boomer-Days a middle class worker could buy and maintain a house, provide for a family with multiple children, pay for their education and still have money left to go on vacation. Today two working parents can't do the same, instead children go into debt to finance their education and fathers live in their cars in googles parking lot.
The problem many home buyers face is that it has become normal to go deeply into debt to buy and maintain a house, so it is not like they pay rent into their own house ownership account which slowly accumulates reserves for costly maintenance. A house costs twice as much as its sale price and if one has to go into dept to buy it in the first place, one is not middle class.
Back in Boomer-Days a middle class worker could buy and maintain a house, provide for a family with multiple children, pay for their education and still have money left to go on vacation. Today two working parents can't do the same, instead children go into debt to finance their education and fathers live in their cars in googles parking lot.
Why do roofs need replacement? Cant they make more durable roofs? Is it the rain? (Never had to deal with such problems so have no idea)
Oh, you can, but it grows expensive fast.
Around here (Norway) a lot of houses have shingles on the roof - typical lifespan ~20 years or so. On the upside, it is simple to replace.
Next step up being corrugated steel, though mostly it is shaped to look like tile. IIRC you can expect to get 30-40 years out of one.
Proper tile - lifespan depends greatly on the quality of the tile, but around here (west coast, lots of crap weather) the limiting factor tends to be the nails used to hold the tiles in place.
Anecdotally, my father in law and I redid a slate roof last laid in 1917 last year. The nails had all but rusted away, and only the sheer mass of the slates held them in place. We redid it using marine grade stainless screws, part of me is a little peeved that I won't ever know how long it lasts - but I fully expect it to last way more than 100 years. Was fun to etch a couple of small plaques for my far-off descendants to read, though. We put them under the first couple of slates you'd need to remove when redoing the roof. :-)
Around here (Norway) a lot of houses have shingles on the roof - typical lifespan ~20 years or so. On the upside, it is simple to replace.
Next step up being corrugated steel, though mostly it is shaped to look like tile. IIRC you can expect to get 30-40 years out of one.
Proper tile - lifespan depends greatly on the quality of the tile, but around here (west coast, lots of crap weather) the limiting factor tends to be the nails used to hold the tiles in place.
Anecdotally, my father in law and I redid a slate roof last laid in 1917 last year. The nails had all but rusted away, and only the sheer mass of the slates held them in place. We redid it using marine grade stainless screws, part of me is a little peeved that I won't ever know how long it lasts - but I fully expect it to last way more than 100 years. Was fun to etch a couple of small plaques for my far-off descendants to read, though. We put them under the first couple of slates you'd need to remove when redoing the roof. :-)
Sure, you can get a roof that last for 120 - 150 years, but the cost means that many opted for cheaper solutions. My house was built with an asbestos roof, those last forever, almost. If a tile broke I would get asbestos particles in my yard.
I've lived in houses which were close to 100 years old(British terraced houses from the 1930s) and the idea of having to replace the roof is.....a bit weird. Sure they need repairs, an odd tile replaced here and there, but....replacing the whole thing? I can't think of any reason why you'd need to do that.
My parents replaced the roof on their 150-year-old slate-roofed house, as did several other people on the street.
A house that old will often have developed a few minor leaks in its lifetime. It's been subject to a lot of weathering. Probably it was put in without any felt underneath, as was normal at the time. Maybe the nails have weakened from rust. Many lofts are a bit damp, due to condensation as the roof is of course cold. So often the battens holding the slates will be a bit tired as well.
You spend a few years with strategically placed plastic tubs catching drips, then a once-a-decade storm comes along, you lose several slates at once, and it's time for a new roof.
A house that old will often have developed a few minor leaks in its lifetime. It's been subject to a lot of weathering. Probably it was put in without any felt underneath, as was normal at the time. Maybe the nails have weakened from rust. Many lofts are a bit damp, due to condensation as the roof is of course cold. So often the battens holding the slates will be a bit tired as well.
You spend a few years with strategically placed plastic tubs catching drips, then a once-a-decade storm comes along, you lose several slates at once, and it's time for a new roof.
Asphalt shingles. They degrade over time and can’t be replaced piecemeal. They’re cheap and easy to lay down. I think the original idea behind them was that the home owners could DIY cheaply every 10-15 years but both houses and people have moved away from that being considered an option. If you have a low pitch roof without a lot of valleys it’s still easy to do though.
Where I live, there is extreme weather like hurricanes or tornadoes. Even if you opt for a more expensive roof, the wind might come along and wreck it. Most people I know have shingles, and they wear down in the elements after 20 years or so. You might start getting leaks or you might not, but once your roof reaches a certain age you can expect to start seeing problems. Kinda like a car.
If your plumbing or roof fails and you aren't there to deal with it immediately, the bill is pretty steep (once the weather / water gets inside the house).
Out of curiosity: would you be still renting when you are over 70? In my mind the kind of people who never mind owning a house is the kind of people who know they will inherit their parents’ house.
I currently own and 100% expect to rent something like a low-maintenance condo in a community when older.
What about a nag in the head that something would happen to the bank account that has the money that you got from selling the house or by money deprecation with relation to housing prices (or stock market crash if in stocks)?
Buy some real estate that someone else lives in, maybe through a REIT.
Accessibility link for noJSers who still want to see the images: https://archive.is/Xx1WB
I lived out of a minivan and then a larger fan for 2.5 years while writing software and loved it.
It was one of the most freeing and enriching experiences of my life, and was so much better than living in a stationary building.
I traveled all around the country and was still able to remain productive. In fact, I was more productive and motivated, because my life was actually interesting and different day-to-day.
It was sometimes uncomfortable, especially in the beginning when I learned the ropes, but nothing too bad. (This is in the U.S., where it's safe to do in majority of places.)
In my gradual cutting of monthly upkeep expenditures I had to give it up in favor of more detached living, but it was great, and I would do it again if I didn't have to do paid work to accomplish it.
I lived out of a minivan and then a larger fan for 2.5 years while writing software and loved it.
It was one of the most freeing and enriching experiences of my life, and was so much better than living in a stationary building.
I traveled all around the country and was still able to remain productive. In fact, I was more productive and motivated, because my life was actually interesting and different day-to-day.
It was sometimes uncomfortable, especially in the beginning when I learned the ropes, but nothing too bad. (This is in the U.S., where it's safe to do in majority of places.)
In my gradual cutting of monthly upkeep expenditures I had to give it up in favor of more detached living, but it was great, and I would do it again if I didn't have to do paid work to accomplish it.
So, something that always seems to be missing from these blog posts: what do you do about showering / bathroom? What happens when it gets into cold wintery weather?
A video linked to the post answers both questions, in a pretty elegant setup, for an 6m single-occupant van:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-DgMYB6L0c
Bathing:
- Sponge bath, external shower hookup, or an internal shower, are common. Using gym / campground / community centre facilities is also frequent, loss of these a major fallout of Covid. Taking a "navy shower" minimises water use. There are recirculating showers (with filters) used by some, and instant-on-demand hot water heaters (used by most). The video shows a bathroom built into cabinets which opens for use, shower curtail is pulled up. Fixed-wall stalls exist but really chew into space, often double as closet space.
- Cassette or composting toilets latter w/ urine diverter, are common. Again, using available facilities is often preferred.
- Winter is easy: a small heater and insulation. Condensation is a bigger worry than cold, especially against the front windshield. Summer heat is generally worse --- keeping a metal box under full sun cool is a challenge. Especially where solar exposure is needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-DgMYB6L0c
Bathing:
- Sponge bath, external shower hookup, or an internal shower, are common. Using gym / campground / community centre facilities is also frequent, loss of these a major fallout of Covid. Taking a "navy shower" minimises water use. There are recirculating showers (with filters) used by some, and instant-on-demand hot water heaters (used by most). The video shows a bathroom built into cabinets which opens for use, shower curtail is pulled up. Fixed-wall stalls exist but really chew into space, often double as closet space.
- Cassette or composting toilets latter w/ urine diverter, are common. Again, using available facilities is often preferred.
- Winter is easy: a small heater and insulation. Condensation is a bigger worry than cold, especially against the front windshield. Summer heat is generally worse --- keeping a metal box under full sun cool is a challenge. Especially where solar exposure is needed.
I'll blog about this next. Add yourself to the newsletter at https://ghuntley.com/signup to get it in your inbox.
i signed up for your newsletter and look forward to your post eagerly.
for bathrooms, i can usually find one. for showering, i used to find them too... but more recently showers are just something i gave up. i live indoors atm and i have access to a shower pretty much 24/7, and i,m just not interested.
i don,t think it is missing, it is one of the most frequently asked questions, and also one of the most frequently answered.
i don,t think it is missing, it is one of the most frequently asked questions, and also one of the most frequently answered.
Could you please share your monthly expenses. I found this fascinating.
I try to avoid them.
I expect more and more people are going to live in vans, buy tiny houses etc. Housing prices across the world are insane, rental prices are even worse (though Covid has put a temporary brake on rents/prices, it will go back up soon enough). And wages aren't rising, and rental companies buying up properties every chance they get.
Something needs to change. Why screw oneself with a 30 year mortgage, plus property taxes, plus constant maintenance headaches? And deal with shitty HOA too, in some places. Maybe this is a good way to silently protest and force progressive housing policy changes.
Something needs to change. Why screw oneself with a 30 year mortgage, plus property taxes, plus constant maintenance headaches? And deal with shitty HOA too, in some places. Maybe this is a good way to silently protest and force progressive housing policy changes.
The problem is not the cost of houses, but the cost of land in desirable locations. Van living and tiny houses don’t solve those problems and most people are still bound to their city jobs.
> Housing prices across the world are insane,
They only are insane if you insist on living centrally in large cities. Which you can't do anyway if you live in a van. So it's hard to give a lot of weight to this prediction.
They only are insane if you insist on living centrally in large cities. Which you can't do anyway if you live in a van. So it's hard to give a lot of weight to this prediction.
I think they’re just insane generally. Almost everywhere in the U.K., housing is much more expensive than the cost of building it.
This is really beginning to concern me. I think we’ve created a fake plastic economy built on face plastic house prices. By stoking the bubble, the purchase and renovation of housing keeps pushing money through the economy.
By constantly remortgaging, new value is “created” which allows people to have a new kitchen, go on holiday, buy a car, extend their house. But it feels like a trick to me. I’m not an economist, but where’s the wealth creation here?
As a result of the forever rising prices, foreign investors buy properties, often leaving them empty. They see the game the government is playing and exploit it.
Feels like the U.K. government doesn’t have a Plan B. They don’t know how to create a strong economy so they turn to retail and the housing market. Surely the wheels have to fall off at some point?
This is really beginning to concern me. I think we’ve created a fake plastic economy built on face plastic house prices. By stoking the bubble, the purchase and renovation of housing keeps pushing money through the economy.
By constantly remortgaging, new value is “created” which allows people to have a new kitchen, go on holiday, buy a car, extend their house. But it feels like a trick to me. I’m not an economist, but where’s the wealth creation here?
As a result of the forever rising prices, foreign investors buy properties, often leaving them empty. They see the game the government is playing and exploit it.
Feels like the U.K. government doesn’t have a Plan B. They don’t know how to create a strong economy so they turn to retail and the housing market. Surely the wheels have to fall off at some point?
> This is really beginning to concern me. I think we’ve created a fake plastic economy built on face plastic house prices. By stoking the bubble, the purchase and renovation of housing keeps pushing money through the economy.
This has been an issue for a long time now. There should have been a crash in 2008/2009 but instead the government in the UK decided to prop up house prices with various schemes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, for many people, house owners and people looking to purchase, this helped people stay out of negative equity/allowed people to purchase their own home.
> By constantly remortgaging, new value is “created” which allows people to have a new kitchen, go on holiday, buy a car, extend their house. But it feels like a trick to me. I’m not an economist, but where’s the wealth creation here?
I'm not sure remortgaging is creating new value. All money is loaned into existence, remortgaging is just creating new debt secured on your home. It still has to be paid back. People could still get loans, just not perhaps at the same favorable rate.
There has been a lot of money printing over the past 10 years or so, I think rising house prices are a natural result of that. I think it's more of a case of decreasing purchasing power of the £ in your pocket, rather than homes rising in value. Have a look at this chart when house prices are compared with gold[0]. It's also a function of the availability of loans, since now you can borrow cheaply over long periods, this increases the total amount people are able to borrow, as it's much easier to service the debt.
What's more surprising to me is that we're not really seeing inflation in other areas of the economy, such as wages or consumer goods. Inflation has been surprising low since the crisis of 2008/2009.
[0] http://pricedingold.com/uk-house-prices/
This has been an issue for a long time now. There should have been a crash in 2008/2009 but instead the government in the UK decided to prop up house prices with various schemes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, for many people, house owners and people looking to purchase, this helped people stay out of negative equity/allowed people to purchase their own home.
> By constantly remortgaging, new value is “created” which allows people to have a new kitchen, go on holiday, buy a car, extend their house. But it feels like a trick to me. I’m not an economist, but where’s the wealth creation here?
I'm not sure remortgaging is creating new value. All money is loaned into existence, remortgaging is just creating new debt secured on your home. It still has to be paid back. People could still get loans, just not perhaps at the same favorable rate.
There has been a lot of money printing over the past 10 years or so, I think rising house prices are a natural result of that. I think it's more of a case of decreasing purchasing power of the £ in your pocket, rather than homes rising in value. Have a look at this chart when house prices are compared with gold[0]. It's also a function of the availability of loans, since now you can borrow cheaply over long periods, this increases the total amount people are able to borrow, as it's much easier to service the debt.
What's more surprising to me is that we're not really seeing inflation in other areas of the economy, such as wages or consumer goods. Inflation has been surprising low since the crisis of 2008/2009.
[0] http://pricedingold.com/uk-house-prices/
Was hoping someone would reply and convince me I was wrong rather than agree :-/
“Value” in quotes because it isn’t, as you said.
Regarding inflation: I think house price rises have been stoked by the stamp duty trick once again, but agree that there may also be a bit of inflation mixed in.
The reason we’re not seeing general inflation yet is the extra money supply has yet to leave bank accounts and move through the consumer economy. After things open up, we should see that money being spent and a short term boom, then as demand rises prices will respond and we’ll see inflation. At least according to Keynes, who in retrospect just seems to be more and more correct.
Wages won’t rise at the same pace because employers will exploit inflation, the trade unions are weak, and the govt doesn’t care - 120K dead and the Tories are seven points ahead, reality doesn’t matter in U.K. politics.
“Value” in quotes because it isn’t, as you said.
Regarding inflation: I think house price rises have been stoked by the stamp duty trick once again, but agree that there may also be a bit of inflation mixed in.
The reason we’re not seeing general inflation yet is the extra money supply has yet to leave bank accounts and move through the consumer economy. After things open up, we should see that money being spent and a short term boom, then as demand rises prices will respond and we’ll see inflation. At least according to Keynes, who in retrospect just seems to be more and more correct.
Wages won’t rise at the same pace because employers will exploit inflation, the trade unions are weak, and the govt doesn’t care - 120K dead and the Tories are seven points ahead, reality doesn’t matter in U.K. politics.
Getting a mortgage isn't purchasing a home, paying off a mortgage is purchasing a home. The bank owns your home when you get a mortgage, and they have the right to sell if you miss even your last payment.
If the housing market crashes 30% tomorrow it'll bankrupt everyone who signed on for a 30-year mortgage in the last 10 years, unless they've overpaid substantially. Very few leveraged first time buyers who bought since 2008 own their homes yet.
If the housing market crashes 30% tomorrow it'll bankrupt everyone who signed on for a 30-year mortgage in the last 10 years, unless they've overpaid substantially. Very few leveraged first time buyers who bought since 2008 own their homes yet.
Most of the price is in the land value. And quite a lot of the bubble money is from overseas, as you've spotted. The UK is using housing as an export industry. One of the few export industries unaffected by Brexit.
UK retail is just wrecked. Even before the pandemic it wasn't great.
UK retail is just wrecked. Even before the pandemic it wasn't great.
>housing is much more expensive than the cost of building it.
Why would you expect to only pay for the price of building it?
There is also a lot of value in land itself, the view from it, the infrastructure around that land, what other people (And businesses, and schools, airports, restaurants, etc. etc. etc.) live there in close proximity. What laws are in place on that general part of earth... There is so much more at play here than "cost of building it".
Why would you expect to only pay for the price of building it?
There is also a lot of value in land itself, the view from it, the infrastructure around that land, what other people (And businesses, and schools, airports, restaurants, etc. etc. etc.) live there in close proximity. What laws are in place on that general part of earth... There is so much more at play here than "cost of building it".
If you look at the net of local affordability, access, and availability, the problem is widespread.
Housing has become a principle (and one of the largest) asset classes. The things that make it suitable for investing are precisely the same attributes that make it inaccessible, especially to the young, poor, old, and otherwise disadvantaged.
Flyover-state housing may be affordable by SF / New York / LA / Chicago standards. It's often not affordable to locals themselves.
And services (data, power, food, support, healthcare, education) are often far below standards typical on the coasts / near major metros.
Housing has become a principle (and one of the largest) asset classes. The things that make it suitable for investing are precisely the same attributes that make it inaccessible, especially to the young, poor, old, and otherwise disadvantaged.
Flyover-state housing may be affordable by SF / New York / LA / Chicago standards. It's often not affordable to locals themselves.
And services (data, power, food, support, healthcare, education) are often far below standards typical on the coasts / near major metros.
All of this - and maintenance. The house that may be "inexpensive" re: sale price may cost just as much to fix. The cost of fixing X sq ft of thing or replacing appliance Y may certainly increase with the size of the home, but even small homes can have major expenses (and if you are in a "cheaper" area this means more home for less, so more to fix).
Lack of regulation in places without rigid building code enforcement can also make it hard to find people who aren't hacks (if you can find people at all) in construction.
Lack of regulation in places without rigid building code enforcement can also make it hard to find people who aren't hacks (if you can find people at all) in construction.
> And services (data, power, food, support, healthcare, education) are often far below standards typical on the coasts / near major metros.
I think you're combining the worst of opposite ends of the spectrum here. When services are lacking, the prices are cheap too. You can live in a disconnected shack in a depressed rural area for practically nothing today too, just like (many more people did) in the past.
I think you're combining the worst of opposite ends of the spectrum here. When services are lacking, the prices are cheap too. You can live in a disconnected shack in a depressed rural area for practically nothing today too, just like (many more people did) in the past.
Power and internet in small towns (and anywhere larger) isn't "far below" the standards on the coasts, the internet is fast and power is reliable.
There's a lot less restaurants, and they are all the same, and grocers tend not to stock quite as much variety, so those are more true.
Education and healthcare are a lot more variable. I expect having to travel further tends to be the biggest difference in healthcare.
There's a lot less restaurants, and they are all the same, and grocers tend not to stock quite as much variety, so those are more true.
Education and healthcare are a lot more variable. I expect having to travel further tends to be the biggest difference in healthcare.
Internet quality ... varies heavily. Newer development tends to be better.
The issue with power has more to do without outages. In urban areas, these may last a few hours, excepting major incidents (hurricanes, earthquakes). In rural regions, outages may span days, even weeks. Outside the US (or outside mainland US, as in Puerto Rico), even longer.
"Services" includes retail and technical capacities -- whether it's local computer repair or someone who knows how to do basic cabling. Again: cities offer a much more diverse economy, with far more specialties than rural regions do. This may not be debilitating, but it is a factor to consider.
The issue with power has more to do without outages. In urban areas, these may last a few hours, excepting major incidents (hurricanes, earthquakes). In rural regions, outages may span days, even weeks. Outside the US (or outside mainland US, as in Puerto Rico), even longer.
"Services" includes retail and technical capacities -- whether it's local computer repair or someone who knows how to do basic cabling. Again: cities offer a much more diverse economy, with far more specialties than rural regions do. This may not be debilitating, but it is a factor to consider.
Large cities is where jobs are. 90% of the jobs out there are non remote.
While I see some of your point, it goes without saying that vanlife or smaller dwellings will still have maintenance and overhead. You can trade the HOA for gas costs and campground fees(across the US at least unless you're on public land). The vehicle will breakdown, the vehicle will get broken into, etc, etc...
With a more remote workforce now on the long term horizon, why not just move to a cheaper city rather completely jumping off the proverbial cliff?
(This comment is coming from someone who is considering van life and I have also spent some extended periods of time working and living out of my vehicle).
With a more remote workforce now on the long term horizon, why not just move to a cheaper city rather completely jumping off the proverbial cliff?
(This comment is coming from someone who is considering van life and I have also spent some extended periods of time working and living out of my vehicle).
Yeah, true. But there is a big difference between maintaining a three bedroom house (or apartment) and a tiny house. Van life is probably much harder (just guessing, I haven't done it), so it will probably not be as widespread as tiny houses.
Remote work might not be possible for everyone.
Personally, moving to a cheaper city would be my first choice, followed by tiny house.
All of these have pros and cons. But for many people in their 20s/30s, buying a house might never be an option at all, simply because they can't afford it.
Unless progressive policies are implemented, we can expect major housing crisis soon. People want their home's value to continuously increase, they see their home as an investment first - instead of seeing it as a place to live, first.
I dunno what the solution is, but I don't think this situation can continue.
Remote work might not be possible for everyone.
Personally, moving to a cheaper city would be my first choice, followed by tiny house.
All of these have pros and cons. But for many people in their 20s/30s, buying a house might never be an option at all, simply because they can't afford it.
Unless progressive policies are implemented, we can expect major housing crisis soon. People want their home's value to continuously increase, they see their home as an investment first - instead of seeing it as a place to live, first.
I dunno what the solution is, but I don't think this situation can continue.
A cheap home base + a van seems like a flexible option. You've got low overhead but the option to hit the road for on-location gigs or when the wanderlust kicks in. A co-housing arrangement might make the base more tractable.
Starlink internet may be the catalyst for an exodus from the cities(even though many smaller cities and towns do have good enough internet). Or at least a re-examination , given that so many are working from home.
My primary home is a campervan (Promaster 2500). I travel to places and then I rent a house or apartment for a few months to bring some stability to my life. Then I move onto the next place. It is lovely. I can't think of any other way to live.
How long have you been doing this?
About 6 months now. I got stuck in the US, so I decided to do something different instead of just couch surfing at friends houses. Bought a campervan that was already mostly fitted out, did the rest myself.
Prior to that, I spent 2 years on a motorbike living out of hotels and rentals all over Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
I am lucky to have a job and a life that was already remote.
Prior to that, I spent 2 years on a motorbike living out of hotels and rentals all over Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
I am lucky to have a job and a life that was already remote.
I did a similar thing (full time van living while doing full time software development, but in the US) for ~ 6 months until the pandemic cut the trip short. Depending on the build of your van, you will have differing levels of reliance on public resources. Unfortunately, our van was built around urban living - showering in gyms, working in coffee shops, etc.
In normal life, I think that's a much _simpler_ approach than being out in the forest. We were never far from a water source or a hardware store in case of emergency, which came in handy more than once.
I hope it continues to work out for them!
In normal life, I think that's a much _simpler_ approach than being out in the forest. We were never far from a water source or a hardware store in case of emergency, which came in handy more than once.
I hope it continues to work out for them!
I’m on day 1,002 in my Civic, the last stop before a tent. With showers and the library and people not afraid of each other it was pretty good and I questioned why I paid $1,850/mo for 350sqft for so long. I camp 10 blocks from there. Hope it’s normal soon. Going on a year without a shower. Nobody I know will put me in a hotel and decreasing few will talk to me. I need to get my shit together, apparently. I was waking up at 3am to sponge bath myself when I worked retail—was not enough. “At least we’re not in Africa” -a diverse boss from my Engineering days.
Do you know how much a monthly gym membership near you costs? If money is an issue, I could chip in via paypal or venmo. (Just a grad student with kids here, so don't expect too much, please.)
Hang in there. You're a good person, and you are enough just the way you are. You don't need anyone's approval to exist.
If you are in East Coast U.S., I may be able to find you a shower.
If you are in East Coast U.S., I may be able to find you a shower.
Second this and also willing to chip in. I'm not sure where you are but I know in the US it is fairly common for gas station truck stops to have shower facilities as well!
If this sort of thing interests you, watch Nomadland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadland_(film)
It's about people in American with similar situations who decide to go off grid. And like the OP are a bit older, not necessarily the hippie type.
The movie is quite stark and realistic. A mix of documentary and drama. And it starts Frances McDormand from Three Billboards, who is excellent in it.
That said, this lifestyle has absolutely no appeal to me. What do you do when you get older? I mean much older? Is a 70 year going to be lugging propane tanks around and doing odd jobs for food? There needs to be some sort of plan, doesn't there?
It's about people in American with similar situations who decide to go off grid. And like the OP are a bit older, not necessarily the hippie type.
The movie is quite stark and realistic. A mix of documentary and drama. And it starts Frances McDormand from Three Billboards, who is excellent in it.
That said, this lifestyle has absolutely no appeal to me. What do you do when you get older? I mean much older? Is a 70 year going to be lugging propane tanks around and doing odd jobs for food? There needs to be some sort of plan, doesn't there?
While I don't think you're wrong on average about the physical abilities of senior people these days, consider that anyone who is forced to do a reasonable amount of manual labor as they age will age a lot a slower than if they were sedentary.
My dad has been 100% sedentary since his 60s. He's now 71 with the mobility of a 90 year old. His father was a military man who kept a strict exercise routine till his 80s. He looked (and performed like) 55 at 75. Designing a lifestyle that forces you to move and lift heavy things is a really good idea.
My dad has been 100% sedentary since his 60s. He's now 71 with the mobility of a 90 year old. His father was a military man who kept a strict exercise routine till his 80s. He looked (and performed like) 55 at 75. Designing a lifestyle that forces you to move and lift heavy things is a really good idea.
There is definitely a benefit to keeping up an exercise regime, but people who work manual labor jobs throughout their career frequently suffer from severe joint pain, back pain, and other other unpleasant consequences as they age. Many of my father's friends were physically destroyed and living with chronic pain by the time they reached their early-50s.
Absolutely, hard manual labour 8 hours/day for 40 years will wreck anyone worse than the same time at a desk job. What is needed is a gentler average through our whole life.
It's all about balance, sitting is deadly, overwork in bad conditions is deadly
both are good when done properly
both are good when done properly
> Is a 70 year going to be lugging propane tanks around and doing odd jobs for food?
Good question. That’s a thing. People have this grey nomad ideal and when they reach that age they sell up everything and buy a big rig, only to find that at age 70, it’s difficult to drive such a thing. Particularly if they’ve never reversed a trailer before.
This is why you can buy second hand rigs that are 12 months old that are hardly used, cheap.
Good question. That’s a thing. People have this grey nomad ideal and when they reach that age they sell up everything and buy a big rig, only to find that at age 70, it’s difficult to drive such a thing. Particularly if they’ve never reversed a trailer before.
This is why you can buy second hand rigs that are 12 months old that are hardly used, cheap.
There are systems in trucks now that can basically reverse a trailer for you.
The idea of living in a converted van has certainly appealed to me many times. However, vehicles need maintenance and consumables, to the point that their natural life is quite short compared to a building (which also needs maintenance and consumables). Is the “freedom” that the mobility buys you worth it over, say, 10 years; at which point, your van is nearing the end of its life? A middle ground might be a boat, but I am aware of the adage: “The two happiest days of a boat owner’s life are the day he buys a boat and the day he sells it!”
10 years is far from end of life for a vanlife conversion. Many conversions start with something older than that. Boats are in water, so they have a lot more wear and tear. If you stay out of the road salt states, it's normal to see 40 year old camper vans still in daily use.
The real limiting factor is when the furnishings, flooring, cabinets, appliances, all that stuff wears out. Manufactured housing in general has this 20 to 40 year depreciation, because we don't pretend as a society that they're an appreciating asset. Its ridiculous that we treat stick built houses (as opposed to the land they are built on) that way; houses have major maintenance costs over time as well. It's just easier with manufactured housing of any type to, instead of: new roof, new HVAC, a kitchen renovation, new flooring, etc etc, just.. defer maintenance on those items as practical and then replace the whole thing or do a major midlife overhaul. (The latter does require a "home base", so doing vanlife long term does require finding places to settle down occasionally - this lifestyle is much easier for people who have families and/or friends with single family detached homes in suburban or rural areas they can crash with sometimes.)
The real limiting factor is when the furnishings, flooring, cabinets, appliances, all that stuff wears out. Manufactured housing in general has this 20 to 40 year depreciation, because we don't pretend as a society that they're an appreciating asset. Its ridiculous that we treat stick built houses (as opposed to the land they are built on) that way; houses have major maintenance costs over time as well. It's just easier with manufactured housing of any type to, instead of: new roof, new HVAC, a kitchen renovation, new flooring, etc etc, just.. defer maintenance on those items as practical and then replace the whole thing or do a major midlife overhaul. (The latter does require a "home base", so doing vanlife long term does require finding places to settle down occasionally - this lifestyle is much easier for people who have families and/or friends with single family detached homes in suburban or rural areas they can crash with sometimes.)
Glad the person landed on their feet. Can’t help but think this could have been titled ‘from a van down by the river’
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2VIEY9-A8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2VIEY9-A8
Glad the person landed on their feet.
I'm not sure they did, their situation looks precarious to me.
I'm not sure they did, their situation looks precarious to me.
Right? That blog took a really weird turn- and so do these comments.
I can guess which video it is, and perhaps there is some truth to it, but it's quite one-dimensional, and taking it at face value is like buying into the stereotypes overweight nerd with Cheetos stains image of sysadmin or inept socially challenged software developer.
This lifestyle is incredible and life-changing, and shouldn't be discounted by anyone who's looking for a change.
This lifestyle is incredible and life-changing, and shouldn't be discounted by anyone who's looking for a change.
I have been prototyping a portable working setup so that I can write code while camping. Rather than a van I've got a smallish travel trailer (24') in part because I like having the tow vehicle available when I don't want to batten down the hatches to go into town, but we are set up for 100% off road dry camping which gives us access to a LOT of BLM land. Now if I could get mobile Starlink service ... that would be stellar. But not happening any time soon AFAICT.
How are you dealing with internet connectivity? Also car/van dwelling here (dipping my toes in for a few weeks) while taking a break from employment. I'm starting to get attached to the nomadic life style, lol.
Could someone explain to me why/how divorce ends up delivering such fate?
Do these citizens in these countries think these laws around divorce are fair?
Do these citizens in these countries think these laws around divorce are fair?
This is a complicated topic. Marriages dissolve for many reasons. In general, though, western society has embraced a view of marriage that combining view with a coupling view. No longer are married people “as one” but rather a couple mutually supporting each other.
While this doesn’t seem like a difference, it has major implications in pretty much all aspects of life.
While this doesn’t seem like a difference, it has major implications in pretty much all aspects of life.
From the article: "the cost of housing in Sydney, Australia and sole-income was a leading factor in the dissolution of the relationship"
Whatever opinions you have about divorce law aside, it's a simple fact that if housing was already a difficult expense, it gets much harder when one family becomes two.
Whatever opinions you have about divorce law aside, it's a simple fact that if housing was already a difficult expense, it gets much harder when one family becomes two.
Same as people owning a property .. messy split up, probably selling the previous 'house' and having to find a safe spot somewhere. The van part doesn't seem the main factor.
Why do difficult? $500/mo buys you a room, wi-fi and home made food almost everywhere in developing countries.
Working from home is a long sought boost for everyone. Places like Sikkim, or Ladakh, unspoiled parts of Nepal and Sri Lanka are ideal for remote work.
The problem is that there is no demand.
Working from home is a long sought boost for everyone. Places like Sikkim, or Ladakh, unspoiled parts of Nepal and Sri Lanka are ideal for remote work.
The problem is that there is no demand.
One thing westerners don't realize when they move to places like SriLanka is that they end up increasing the local prices. This happens in the US too, when Californians move to Texas and start paying more for properties (or rent). It is hard enough for people in developing countries to compete without foreigners moving in - with them, it becomes impossible.
There's also employment generated from the services consumed. USD shortages and other problems are similarly ignored.
This is a zero-sum view. I've recently observed it becoming more popular online. True to form, the simple take misses all of the nuance.
On one hand there are people decrying the horrible conditions for housekeepers sending remittance from the Gulf. On the other there are economically troublesome analyses like the above.
This is a zero-sum view. I've recently observed it becoming more popular online. True to form, the simple take misses all of the nuance.
On one hand there are people decrying the horrible conditions for housekeepers sending remittance from the Gulf. On the other there are economically troublesome analyses like the above.
This already happens in a way in my country, you’ve got all these people who have emigrated for better wages and who are using the money they earned in those other countries to buy real estate at home. This is kind of shitty for the people that did not choose to emigrate, because on top of the shitty local wages they have to contend with rising real estate prices, too.
The author wanted to be nearby his children in Sydney, one of the most expensive cities in the world.
Demand isn't the main problem- it's that if you live in such a place, most employers will want to pay you according to local wages. The idea of taking a job in the US overseas and the exploiting the economic difference sounds good on paper, but I've seen companies attempt to adjust income accordingly.
Most companies don't allow fully remote or remote in different time zones. If they did, they could just outsource all the work to nationals of lower cost of living countries.
The problem is that big corporations are raking in the billions whilst at the same time paying unrealistic salaries. Plus, in many western countries employees pay enormous taxes on top of that. The system is rigged towards the rich - their companies don't pay the same taxes an average Joe company pays and they can afford creative accounting to keep much more of what they make than me and you. This has to change!
I am sick and tired when next politician claims they'll rise the tax for the rich, and then it turns out me and you have to pay even more whereas your CEO laughs and buys another Bentley.
I always roll my eyes whenever another hard-left politician such as AOC or Corbyn comes over and does the whole big talk about how corporations ought to be taxed fairly and all. And later, when they are in power, they call for actions such as (favorable) censorship and what not, while doing zero about big corporations because it's easier to control (and pander to) one big entity than multiple single entities. As long as corporate entities are allowed to donate to political parties, and as long as fundraising remains some kind of race in the eyes of the media, expect this nonsense to continue.
Politicians don't care about taxing corporations that they like. You'll see them do the whole dance against Big Oil or Walmart or whatever, but when it comes to Big Tech, boy do they love their Apple toys and Google Internet.
Politicians don't care about taxing corporations that they like. You'll see them do the whole dance against Big Oil or Walmart or whatever, but when it comes to Big Tech, boy do they love their Apple toys and Google Internet.
I'd love to know what these nomadic folks do for friends and socialisation. I think I'd find it exceedingly lonely to uproot myself from urban civilisation (that includes the case of living in a new city every few month).
There are certainly areas you can go where lots of other nomads go (and then hang out with them). Quartzite, Arizona in the U.S. is the obvious example. I understand that, from there, you can caravan off with a group of like-minded nomads to the next destination.
Second picture from his camping trip should fully answer "what these nomadic folks do".
I see a lot of people, a lot, spending time in their cars. Adults between duties sit in theirs on parking spots. Teens spending nights watching movies.
With wireless coms, weird real estate fluctuations.. new vehicle designs too it might become a new form of nomadism.. are we becoming snails ?
With wireless coms, weird real estate fluctuations.. new vehicle designs too it might become a new form of nomadism.. are we becoming snails ?
Something needs to be done about housing affordability in Australia’s capital cities.
It’s ABSURD how much money you need to pay for a 2 bedroom apartment.
Anywhere 1.5 hour drive north or south of Sydney and still within 20 minute drive from the ocean is minimum $AUD800K.
If you want to buy in Sydney proper it’s $AUD1M minimum unless looking at something in need of serious renovations.
The government does nothing to stop the bubble. Rivers of dubious Chinese money flooding in and lax lending practices combined with reduction after reduction in the interest rates.
The current government in Australia is hijacking the next gen’s future with bad environmental policy, foreign dependency of the education sector and a housing bubble that never ends.
It’s ABSURD how much money you need to pay for a 2 bedroom apartment.
Anywhere 1.5 hour drive north or south of Sydney and still within 20 minute drive from the ocean is minimum $AUD800K.
If you want to buy in Sydney proper it’s $AUD1M minimum unless looking at something in need of serious renovations.
The government does nothing to stop the bubble. Rivers of dubious Chinese money flooding in and lax lending practices combined with reduction after reduction in the interest rates.
The current government in Australia is hijacking the next gen’s future with bad environmental policy, foreign dependency of the education sector and a housing bubble that never ends.
I have lived in Sydney (manly) in 2020, it is a beautiful city, but indeed crazy expensive. I have left to the outback to save money and kickstart the nomadic life. I really hope I will be able to return to australia when I am older to do exactly this. There is a big community of (mostly older and retired) people roaming australia with camper/caravan. To me, it would be the ultimate life.
To the OP, please come and visit Hopetoun VIC, free camping at the lake, you would love it here
To the OP, please come and visit Hopetoun VIC, free camping at the lake, you would love it here
I lived in a van for a winter a couple of years back outside the company I then owned while weekly-ish commuting to my new home a couple of hundred miles away. While I didn’t have the isolation that OP can have (we ran a small factory and staff) it was freeing to be unshackled from a stationary home and to move about freely, looking back I’m bit sure I took full advantage of that period but I did enjoy it.
Perhaps I will try it again in a few years with my wife this time.
Perhaps I will try it again in a few years with my wife this time.
How did you take bath and clean your self. Where did you go for piss etc?
Gym membership at a hotel gym round the corner, showered after my evening gym session, camping loo in the van if no alternative
I've never understood using vans over caravans. With a van if it breaks down you are pretty stuffed as all of your kit is in it. Plus if you have to make trips into a city/town you are wasting fuel carting all that stuff around, and the risk of theft would make me nervous.
Caravans don't have any of those downsides, but I guess people make it work?
Caravans don't have any of those downsides, but I guess people make it work?
As someone who lives how you say OP should, caravans do have downsides. They're not usually made very well and if you're traveling a lot they're not well suited to it. If you're moving to a new place every few months or something they're alright. If you're moving every 2 weeks or few days, a van is where it's at. There are different ways to live a nomadic type of life and vans are more suited to a more extreme nomadic life than caravans.
Where do you leave your caravan when traveling into town, wouldn’t leaving it make it more susceptible to theft?
I would say the risk of theft is far lower out in the country side.
Exactly. On top of that, you have to find specific places where it's allowed to park them. However, you can park a van anywhere.
Van-life with no bed in the van? or it's not clear from the pics...
Completely off-topic, but I find it weird when someone is making a comment on the warmth of a community says things like “Love was free and it was custom to hug everyone”. So it was normal, then?
It probably has something to do with being born in Brazil/RJ, where hugging everyone is the norm.
It probably has something to do with being born in Brazil/RJ, where hugging everyone is the norm.
I think frowning upon physical contact is a British custom that spread far because of all the imperialism. It's really weird how people avoid close contact, something a human body needs.
We traditionally shake hands when we greet - that's physical contact. Whereas East Asians typically bow and make no physical contact at all. So your comment simply isn't true and doesn't really make much sense. (I haven't downvoted you by the way).
Thanks to the pandemic and the hot money dumped into the market under the name of helping the economy, Sydney property prices is going up again. For me, it is simply criminal to drive the property prices further up after 8 years nonstop growth.
I often work in my Tesla Model 3, e.g. when travelling or waiting for kids from their hobbies. You can't compare it to a van of course, but I'm able to find relatively comfortable seating position for few hours with laptop on my lap (!). You'll get air conditioning and nice audio. No need to run the engine, of course. I know that many people even sleep in their Teslas occasionally, replacing a tent.
There’s so much value in this post that it’s worth reading a few times.
I've been thinking about working from a van. The main thing I'm undecided about is whether satellite internet would work out?
I've read mixed reviews on whirlpool and other forums.
I understand minimum latency is 650ms. What's that like for videoconferencing?
Presumably I'd need an articulated dish so I can recalibrate every time I stop. Anyone had any experience with those? They cost about $2000. Can they be secured, or are they likely to be ripped off from time to time?
I've read mixed reviews on whirlpool and other forums.
I understand minimum latency is 650ms. What's that like for videoconferencing?
Presumably I'd need an articulated dish so I can recalibrate every time I stop. Anyone had any experience with those? They cost about $2000. Can they be secured, or are they likely to be ripped off from time to time?
Starlink[0] is made for you. It's a constellation in low-earth orbit, so latency is far lower than 650ms (current users are getting around of 30-60ms.) The current iteration must stay within the "cell" it's assigned to, which is only a few miles wide. But in the future, there will be a version available that'll work almost anywhere in the world.
[0]: https://www.starlink.com/
[0]: https://www.starlink.com/
Depends how remote you want to be. Your username suggests you're not living in Western Europe. But a (directional, especially) 4g antenna outside your vehicle can still go quite a long way, compared to cell phone tethering. You'll probably have to buy a 4g router also. I guess the lot would set you back less than AUD200.
A router may be ~200, but I imagine monthly plans for unlimited are over 100/month from a traditional cell provider.
This seems very expensive. How do you set up the monthly plan more efficiently?
This seems very expensive. How do you set up the monthly plan more efficiently?
You might look into the new Space X satellite internet. Right now they’re geo fenced to an area but if you move once every few months, it might be feasible to change your service address.
Certainly the thing to use in the near future would be starlink. 50-150 mbps and <100ms ping. Right now they're only advertising their service for fixed locations, but if you park the van in one place for a while it might work out just fine.
We use Viasat at our farm and it's acceptable but kind of slow and has a long ping. I'm really itching to get starlink which they've projected will be available at our place later this year.
We use Viasat at our farm and it's acceptable but kind of slow and has a long ping. I'm really itching to get starlink which they've projected will be available at our place later this year.
So it’s possible to videoconference with viasat’s long ping? Unpleasant, or unusable?
Yep it's possible. We have two connections - viasat and a fixed hilltop wireless and I can't remember which one was active when I last had a video call, but my partner has video calls daily and I know he's done it when that connection was active. But I can't recall how pleasant it is.
Try tethering a cell phone first. It’s the simplest thing that might work. You will always be solving problems as they come up. And they won’t be what you thought was critical before you left.
Glad to hear it's working out for you on the work front Geoffrey. Do you have any concerns about long-term plans living in the van?
Also, any cool stories to tell about power maintenance? I see you have giant solar panels but wonder if they're enough for your daily workload - do you have enough power at night?
Sorry if you've answered these questions before, I'm new to your blog!
Also, any cool stories to tell about power maintenance? I see you have giant solar panels but wonder if they're enough for your daily workload - do you have enough power at night?
Sorry if you've answered these questions before, I'm new to your blog!
Not OP. The van in the article appears to have ~800W of solar on the roof. Depending on preference, lighting requirements can be ~5-30W, laptop requirements ~20-150W. If heating and cooking needs are met with natural gas (the most common solution- and I can see a gas pizza oven in the article). Making some assumptions:
* the solar panels deliver average ~200W for 8hrs per day, 1.6kWh total
* OP has average 50W power draw while working, 8hrs per day, 0.4kWh total
* OP has lighting requirements of ~20W, 4hrs per day, ~0.1kWh
I guess he's probably fairly comfortably net positive for electrical power. In my experience the solar panel estimate is reasonably conservative, although I've experienced some extended periods of very bad weather where my panels produce less than 5% of their rated maximum (in the UK- not Aus!).
* the solar panels deliver average ~200W for 8hrs per day, 1.6kWh total
* OP has average 50W power draw while working, 8hrs per day, 0.4kWh total
* OP has lighting requirements of ~20W, 4hrs per day, ~0.1kWh
I guess he's probably fairly comfortably net positive for electrical power. In my experience the solar panel estimate is reasonably conservative, although I've experienced some extended periods of very bad weather where my panels produce less than 5% of their rated maximum (in the UK- not Aus!).
Why do you love vanlife? Why you are living like this? Sorry just curious want to know your point of view
Well, it's working for me right now. I've been in the van for a little over six months now and have a planned rough end date around mid next-year, so it's somewhere between living and long-term traveling.
I'm not much of a city dweller. It's not that I hate cities, they have their charms, it's mostly just that the things I most enjoy don't exist in them. My job is reasonably flexible and living in a van allows me to be closer to the things I love to do: skiing, climbing, running/hiking (off road), especially. Typically I'll do one of those for 2-4 hours per work day, and much of the weekend. Because I guess you may wonder: I find this makes me happier and gives me more motivation in general, which, anecdotally, has a positive impact on my work.
A little more background: I work an average of 40hrs/wk; I have no children; minimal financial responsibilities; I live in the van with my partner, who works ~20hrs/wk, also remotely.
I'm not much of a city dweller. It's not that I hate cities, they have their charms, it's mostly just that the things I most enjoy don't exist in them. My job is reasonably flexible and living in a van allows me to be closer to the things I love to do: skiing, climbing, running/hiking (off road), especially. Typically I'll do one of those for 2-4 hours per work day, and much of the weekend. Because I guess you may wonder: I find this makes me happier and gives me more motivation in general, which, anecdotally, has a positive impact on my work.
A little more background: I work an average of 40hrs/wk; I have no children; minimal financial responsibilities; I live in the van with my partner, who works ~20hrs/wk, also remotely.
Can you add perspective to how you live or why this seems out of scope from how we 'live'.
I don't understand what you mean by out of scope.
I basically travel from activity to activity. Right now I'm skiing. As the snow recedes, I intend to take some time learning to paraglide. Then climbing season will begin. Circumstances permitting, I'm hoping to spend time in Scotland and Norway (in particular) over the spring and summer months, perhaps Greece/Corsica/Sardinia/Spain/Italy (unsure) before winter, then likely the Alps somewhere.
I basically travel from activity to activity. Right now I'm skiing. As the snow recedes, I intend to take some time learning to paraglide. Then climbing season will begin. Circumstances permitting, I'm hoping to spend time in Scotland and Norway (in particular) over the spring and summer months, perhaps Greece/Corsica/Sardinia/Spain/Italy (unsure) before winter, then likely the Alps somewhere.
I don't understand the reason why but it seems a constant that the majority of tech workers are the sole income for the house. Maybe I'm more exposed to H1B workers in US, but that holds even in other places.
It's common enough in other professions that make six figure salaries.
And if you're in tech, you probably know more people in tech than you know accountants/doctors/lawyers/chemical engineers/business owners.
And if you're in tech, you probably know more people in tech than you know accountants/doctors/lawyers/chemical engineers/business owners.
Thank you for writing this I really enjoyed it, read the whole damn thing! I am happy for you and it helps put things in perspective for me. I look forward to reading more in the future from you
I envy you Geoff (as you know!), and my plan is to do the same later this year.
I'm not sure how my wife and I will go long term, but living in campervan has always been a dream - so only one way to find out! :)
I'm not sure how my wife and I will go long term, but living in campervan has always been a dream - so only one way to find out! :)
> every two years that goes by at a company you don't like (or unemployed) is wasting 2% of your working life.
Can someone explain this? Is OP suggesting that the typical working life is 100 years?
Can someone explain this? Is OP suggesting that the typical working life is 100 years?
It was ambiguous, but he compared the wasted time (time wasted at work while working for a bad company) to the total time you have in your working life. He says you spend 21%-35% of your time at work, so during that 2 years you'd spend .42-0.7 years working. And if you calculate with 40 years of work life, then it comes to about 2% of that time.
That might be what happened. The reason it's unsound is, the numerator is in actual time spent at work and the denominator is in total elapsed time including non-work.
Yeah, it's wrong. 2 years out of let's say 40 would be 5%. 2/50 is 4%.
Also 8 hrs is closer to half one's waking hours so that's either another math error, or a mistaken inclusion of the word "waking" (actually he used "awake"), or he works part-time.
Also 8 hrs is closer to half one's waking hours so that's either another math error, or a mistaken inclusion of the word "waking" (actually he used "awake"), or he works part-time.
Depends on how much time (in hours) you spend working. 2 years is maybe 1 year of working time.
One thing I’ve struggled to get right is building the right workspace inside a van.
At the moment I just sit on the bench seat with my laptop on my lap, but it’s slowly taking its toll on my posture.
Any advice?
At the moment I just sit on the bench seat with my laptop on my lap, but it’s slowly taking its toll on my posture.
Any advice?
There are a bunch of van-office layouts on YouTube, Pinterest, etc. See those for inspiration. My view is that you'd likely need to design the interior around the office setup if this is a primary goal. Vans / trailers are often used as mobile offices (construction, oil/gas, video production), for more ideas, though generally these exclude or minimise living/food-prep space.
Basically, there's where you, your butt, monitor, keyboard, mouse, peripherals (printer/scanner, camera/audio gear), power, net, hardware, and any materials (books, suplies, etc.) go. Thermal management. Security.
Laptop or desktop system?
A swivel front seat (driver, passenger, or both), may be the best chair option. It's already there, adjusts to height/tilt, and is comfortable for long periods. Alternately a fold-down / jump seat.
Alternative bed / garage configurations may free up interior space, at a convenience cost. A Murphy, folding, or convertible bed especially.
Fold-out work-surface / stowable monitor next. Support for keyboard, mouse, tablet. A swing-arm monitor doubling as a video display, cabinet or roof mounted.
Easy access to anynecessary materials. Ability to get in or out.
Other seating or lounge space (bench, bed, stool, outside chairs) can be used with laptop, tablet, or possibly a wireless keyboard & mouse with monitor swung out, as an alternate workspace for variety.
CPU, storage, and networking kit can be built-in or mounted to cabinet or rack space, but will likely require airflow / cooling. Utilising or protecting from outdoor ambient conditions may assist.
Then there's sorting out where other amenities / services / systems / storage go (food prep, cooking, cleaning, bathing, toilet, sleeping, cloths, gear, electric, fuel, fresh & waste water, etc.)
Basically, there's where you, your butt, monitor, keyboard, mouse, peripherals (printer/scanner, camera/audio gear), power, net, hardware, and any materials (books, suplies, etc.) go. Thermal management. Security.
Laptop or desktop system?
A swivel front seat (driver, passenger, or both), may be the best chair option. It's already there, adjusts to height/tilt, and is comfortable for long periods. Alternately a fold-down / jump seat.
Alternative bed / garage configurations may free up interior space, at a convenience cost. A Murphy, folding, or convertible bed especially.
Fold-out work-surface / stowable monitor next. Support for keyboard, mouse, tablet. A swing-arm monitor doubling as a video display, cabinet or roof mounted.
Easy access to anynecessary materials. Ability to get in or out.
Other seating or lounge space (bench, bed, stool, outside chairs) can be used with laptop, tablet, or possibly a wireless keyboard & mouse with monitor swung out, as an alternate workspace for variety.
CPU, storage, and networking kit can be built-in or mounted to cabinet or rack space, but will likely require airflow / cooling. Utilising or protecting from outdoor ambient conditions may assist.
Then there's sorting out where other amenities / services / systems / storage go (food prep, cooking, cleaning, bathing, toilet, sleeping, cloths, gear, electric, fuel, fresh & waste water, etc.)
Others have mentioned an external screen. I have two ThinkVision M14 monitors (selected for USB C power + data on a single cable, and high brightness) and some tablet holders that mount on a range of different 1/4in tripod mounting hardware. Look for tripod clamp stands, gooseneck arms, swivel heads. There's a lot out there, you'll figure out something that works for you. If you want a larger monitor, a VESA mount is what you want. There's various mounting hardware available for this also.
In the interim, try to put a pillow on your lap, and your laptop on the pillow. Try to tense your core a little in general, and especially if you feel discomfort in your back. You'll probably need to maintain the tension for a little while. I find this avoids or alleviates my discomfort- but is probably not a _good_ solution.
In the interim, try to put a pillow on your lap, and your laptop on the pillow. Try to tense your core a little in general, and especially if you feel discomfort in your back. You'll probably need to maintain the tension for a little while. I find this avoids or alleviates my discomfort- but is probably not a _good_ solution.
> laptop on the pillow
This is terrible for the thermals. You should never put a laptop on a surface that restricts airflow between the surface and the laptop.
This is terrible for the thermals. You should never put a laptop on a surface that restricts airflow between the surface and the laptop.
For sure it's bad for the laptop, I totally agree, and if you have something better to put your laptop on (a small table that goes over your lap, for example- I believe Ikea sells such a thing) do that. But given the choice between pillow and no pillow, I'd rather damage my laptop than my body.
Getting a monitor would probably help, at least you won't be bending your neck down all the time to see the screen. I've seen some vans that have swivel mounts, but you could also hook it up when in use, and take it down afterwards.
Are you able to stand in the van? If not, that's going to be problematic, I think.
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What happens if you have an accident?
I can imagine this going really wrong
I can imagine this going really wrong
What happens if a nearby tree falls on your stationary house?
Local firefighters and an ambulance will come and arrive quickly? I think that’s exactly the point of the question.
I'm sure they will but that won't help much and it's even worse considering your entire office had an accident too
Really?
seems people upgrade their vans significantly(additional batteries, solar panels etc) before living and remotely working from it. Is it because there is no good ready-made options, or vans like that are too expensive?
I think the DIY aspect is the brand differentiation between "vanlife" and living in an RV in the wal-mart parking lot.
There's plenty of ready-made options, they're just not using the "vanlife" brand on their blog posts.
There's plenty of ready-made options, they're just not using the "vanlife" brand on their blog posts.
Can you tell us more about the combination of van life and raising children?
Matt Foley was a prophet.
Right, why can't I just delete my comment then?
[ETA: Removed content of unpopular comment]
[ETA: Removed content of unpopular comment]
This thought experiment is turtles all the way down. When you read about someone running a marathon, do you not think from the perspective of a paraplegic? How dare someone writes about something as trivial as running super long distances, when we could be reading about people who struggle to walk one step?
Yes, the world is full of problems, but we don't need to stop living our best lives and writing about them just because someone, somewhere is living worse.
Yes, the world is full of problems, but we don't need to stop living our best lives and writing about them just because someone, somewhere is living worse.
Once replied to, a comment can’t be deleted, but still edited for two hours from creation.
Glad I can comment.. But today I tried to make an Ask HN postbecause I wanted to talk to tbis community ... and I guess I have too little 'karma' or idk.. Can't post on most sub/R. Without using my main long standing account..Twitter deletes any account I make just to follow people, FB.. Well just no. Disenfranchisement is real on HN. Wish I had the old account I made on my Last Android..
Then you should post those articles, and comment on them, instead of complaining about this one.
Often statment, articles, glanced over reads are dismissed. I have seen several similar things today which are heavily commented on and shills repeate the mantra .. Poor millennial forced to live in van, or tiny house. This was a nice change from that.
I don't think I am cut out for a permanent #vanlife, but it sure sounds like a cool arrangement if you have the proclivity to handle all that it entails. My wife and I plan to do slow travel when our kids go to college. Move every year or so with a light load while learning different cultures.
Would love to hear more about the financial aspects of #vanlife... from my perspective, I reckon you save a bundle.... but I could be wrong.