Great Man-Made River(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Great Man-Made River
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River
52 comments
I find it very cool that you were there for something like this.
How was it funded? Seems very expensive.
Were regular people excited about it? Was there a meaningful change in day to day life after it was completed?
How was it funded? Seems very expensive.
Were regular people excited about it? Was there a meaningful change in day to day life after it was completed?
"How was it funded? Seems very expensive."
Oil money.
Oil money.
> this is usually not possible since the water is still salty from the sea
Excuse my naive question, but where did the population get drinking water from prior to the GMMR?
Excuse my naive question, but where did the population get drinking water from prior to the GMMR?
Depends where in the country you are.. Parts of the coast in Libya is really harsh and desert. Mountain parts from Benghazi and eastward and Tripoli and westward. There are some small springs around also, water wells can be dug in various places.
But when the urbanization really started I think most water for the big cities came from salt water processing plants.
But when the urbanization really started I think most water for the big cities came from salt water processing plants.
1. How come so much water collects in the desert, rather than closer to the coastline?
2. Is there some decent English text, in a book or online, which describes how Libyan society worked up until 2012? With focus on social and political structures and their interaction?
2. Is there some decent English text, in a book or online, which describes how Libyan society worked up until 2012? With focus on social and political structures and their interaction?
For question one, Wikipedia refers to the source as a “fossil” aquifer, meaning the water has been in place for many thousands of years. It also claims the source is rainwater and doesn’t make an estimate about balance of inputs to pumping effort outputs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_Sandstone_Aquifer_Syste...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_Sandstone_Aquifer_Syste...
If that's really the case, pumping it out sounds like a fool's errand, because it'll just run out. Either that or it's so vast that consumption by millions of people doesn't make a dent in the overall water level.
Cyclical changes in Earth's rotation pushes the North African Monsoon up to the Sahara for a few thousand years every 20k years or so. During this period, the area is much wetter, and over millions of years, very large amounts of water have been deposited in all the areas from where groundwater doesn't drain away.
The source of water for the GMMR is the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System, which has an estimated 150,000 km³ of water in it, of which 2.4 km³ is pumped out every year.
The source of water for the GMMR is the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System, which has an estimated 150,000 km³ of water in it, of which 2.4 km³ is pumped out every year.
Is there any worry about what would happen if the water supply runs out? The article noted that the GMMR might run out in 60-100 years and supplies millions of people with water.
I think the water supply ran out..
There is still plenty of water there. What they failed at was that they greatly overestimated how permeable the sandstone that holds the water is. That is, the flow of water sideways in the aquifer is much slower than expected. They pumped the area directly under the pumps almost dry and then were surprised about how slowly it refilled.
It would still be possible to fix this and reach the original targets by building more pumping stations, further away from each other than the existing ones. That or frack the rock formation...
It would still be possible to fix this and reach the original targets by building more pumping stations, further away from each other than the existing ones. That or frack the rock formation...
What do you think of Gaddafi? I read on wiki he said that GMMR was the eighth wonder of the world.
I am always amazed by human engineering. I grew up near the Rhine in Germany, and literally they changed the position of the whole river into a different shape, depth, and form so that ships can flow on it.
The planning of the event was called "Rheinbegradigung" [1] and they made the river straight, with lots and lots of watergates in between from the Ocean right up to Basel in Switzerland.
Eversince I grew up, hundreds of "Guetermotorschiffe" [2] were flowing up and down the rivers here, transporting coal, ores, stones, metal, even plane parts from Airbus. Their travel routes were all across Europe, as the Rhine has lots of side rivers that are connected orthogonally to it.
And they started the Rheinbegradigung in 1817 and completed it in 1876, which is totally insane from the perspective of the available technology at the time.
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinbegradigung
[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCtermotorschiff
The planning of the event was called "Rheinbegradigung" [1] and they made the river straight, with lots and lots of watergates in between from the Ocean right up to Basel in Switzerland.
Eversince I grew up, hundreds of "Guetermotorschiffe" [2] were flowing up and down the rivers here, transporting coal, ores, stones, metal, even plane parts from Airbus. Their travel routes were all across Europe, as the Rhine has lots of side rivers that are connected orthogonally to it.
And they started the Rheinbegradigung in 1817 and completed it in 1876, which is totally insane from the perspective of the available technology at the time.
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinbegradigung
[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCtermotorschiff
Here is a painting of the view from the "Isteiner Klotz" in southwestern Germany prior to the "Rheinbegradigung":
https://www.gkgbs.ch/obsolet/schulleben/oekowoche/1998-2003/...
Here is a picture of the (approximately) same view today (well, 20 years ago), you can use the church for orientation. The Rhine is at the far right corner. The village once had a small fishing harbor.
https://www.gkgbs.ch/obsolet/schulleben/oekowoche/1998-2003/...
> which is totally insane from the perspective of the available technology at the time.
What they did was pretty clever: they didn't dig an entire new river bed (that would've been impossible), but only some small, narrow shortcut "pilot beds", protected by a dam. You can see such a shortcut here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/K%...
After the shortcut was finished, they opened up the dam. The Rhine then slowly dug a new bed itself.
https://www.gkgbs.ch/obsolet/schulleben/oekowoche/1998-2003/...
Here is a picture of the (approximately) same view today (well, 20 years ago), you can use the church for orientation. The Rhine is at the far right corner. The village once had a small fishing harbor.
https://www.gkgbs.ch/obsolet/schulleben/oekowoche/1998-2003/...
> which is totally insane from the perspective of the available technology at the time.
What they did was pretty clever: they didn't dig an entire new river bed (that would've been impossible), but only some small, narrow shortcut "pilot beds", protected by a dam. You can see such a shortcut here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/K%...
After the shortcut was finished, they opened up the dam. The Rhine then slowly dug a new bed itself.
That is very similar to how an oxbow lake forms, except accelerated by human action.
Does this project link up to the Rhein-Amstel canal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam%E2%80%93Rhine_Canal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam%E2%80%93Rhine_Canal
A lot of canals were built afterwards (though this one very late in comparison).
Especially around the larger Hamburg area you can find lots of those canals, even with tiny lakes where you could park, rest and eat in little idyllic taverns.
Hamburg was the largest trade center of Germany at the time (hence its real name being Hansestadt Hamburg).
Especially around the larger Hamburg area you can find lots of those canals, even with tiny lakes where you could park, rest and eat in little idyllic taverns.
Hamburg was the largest trade center of Germany at the time (hence its real name being Hansestadt Hamburg).
I don't mean to be a wet-blanket with my comment, just to point out the potential negative impacts of human engineering, when such engineering is not well-thought-out.
We (in gulf south US) have had similar engineering projects with the Mississippi River (et al) over the course of the last couple of centuries. Largely the goal has been to keep the rivers from flooding their banks, which they are keen to do in various places, mostly yearly. The impetus for this is of course to aid in the development of major cities and keep farmlands productive.
What is happening as a result, however, is now known to be truly disastrous for my home state of Louisiana, where the adage is "Louisiana is losing a football field an hour"[0] due (in large part) to the levees preventing the sediment from the rivers from depositing along the coast and helping to keep the coastal marshes in place. There are other (secondary) ill effects as well, that are perhaps more subtle. I was on a native plant society field trip last week to study one of our more southerly "bottomlands" (mixed swamp/marsh/upland habitat). What we found is that many of the freshwater-wetland-specific trees are becoming severely unhealthy and/or dying due to the influx of brackish water (mixed salt/fresh) from the gulf/lakes in the area. This is largely due to the loss of sediment that normally would be deposited from the Mississippi river - that sediment helps to reform the uplands surrounding the bottomlands, and without it, other water sources are able to carve a path in. Some of this, of course, is natural, and part of how Louisiana's wetlands normally change over time, but they do seem to be changing more rapidly.
Fortunately, there is a large amount of interest among Louisianians to fix these problems. There are some more large engineering projects designed to undo some of this damage, specifically with projects to reroute the sediment to where its needed (aka diversions)[1]. So I'm hopeful we'll be able to stop and maybe reverse the damage being done
[0] https://www.nola.com/news/environment/article_3128024a-cc03-... [1] https://coastal.la.gov/midbarataria/
We (in gulf south US) have had similar engineering projects with the Mississippi River (et al) over the course of the last couple of centuries. Largely the goal has been to keep the rivers from flooding their banks, which they are keen to do in various places, mostly yearly. The impetus for this is of course to aid in the development of major cities and keep farmlands productive.
What is happening as a result, however, is now known to be truly disastrous for my home state of Louisiana, where the adage is "Louisiana is losing a football field an hour"[0] due (in large part) to the levees preventing the sediment from the rivers from depositing along the coast and helping to keep the coastal marshes in place. There are other (secondary) ill effects as well, that are perhaps more subtle. I was on a native plant society field trip last week to study one of our more southerly "bottomlands" (mixed swamp/marsh/upland habitat). What we found is that many of the freshwater-wetland-specific trees are becoming severely unhealthy and/or dying due to the influx of brackish water (mixed salt/fresh) from the gulf/lakes in the area. This is largely due to the loss of sediment that normally would be deposited from the Mississippi river - that sediment helps to reform the uplands surrounding the bottomlands, and without it, other water sources are able to carve a path in. Some of this, of course, is natural, and part of how Louisiana's wetlands normally change over time, but they do seem to be changing more rapidly.
Fortunately, there is a large amount of interest among Louisianians to fix these problems. There are some more large engineering projects designed to undo some of this damage, specifically with projects to reroute the sediment to where its needed (aka diversions)[1]. So I'm hopeful we'll be able to stop and maybe reverse the damage being done
[0] https://www.nola.com/news/environment/article_3128024a-cc03-... [1] https://coastal.la.gov/midbarataria/
Where was your trip?
To Lafitte wetland trace with the Louisiana Native Plant Society
An older, maybe more impressive example (just because of the age of it, or maybe because of my interest in it) is the hydrological systems built in Rome itself. I'll have to dig out the book I read this out of, but there is some evidence that a large part of what was the Forum was man made and made of infill, with the Cloaca Maxima [1] (which is still around and working) built to attempt to manage flooding from the Tiber. The Tiber is a silt heavy river, and the sewers requried pretty constant maintenance.
When the Cloaca Maxima was blocked with silt sometime int he early Middle Ages, the Forum began flooding again and ended up buried by modern times under a significant amount of soil. See pictures [2] and [3] of the same structure from (a painting) in the 1800s and modern day after the excavation. It really shows the power of nature and the success of engineering.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca_Maxima [2] Before: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Canalett... [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Ro...
When the Cloaca Maxima was blocked with silt sometime int he early Middle Ages, the Forum began flooding again and ended up buried by modern times under a significant amount of soil. See pictures [2] and [3] of the same structure from (a painting) in the 1800s and modern day after the excavation. It really shows the power of nature and the success of engineering.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca_Maxima [2] Before: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Canalett... [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Ro...
They did an impressive job with the Guadalquivir in Seville:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1rsena_del_Guadalquivir#...
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1rsena_del_Guadalquivir#...
The river used to run through the city centre, and flooded a lot. So they diverted most of the flow past the city, leaving the stretch inside effectively a huge dock.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1rsena_del_Guadalquivir#...
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1rsena_del_Guadalquivir#...
The river used to run through the city centre, and flooded a lot. So they diverted most of the flow past the city, leaving the stretch inside effectively a huge dock.
John McPhee's 1989 book "The Control of Nature" has a long section on the work the United States Corps of Engineers did to try to control the flow of the Mississippi. Most of the time it works more or less as designed. But once in while the system can't handle it and the excess is sent down the course of the Atchafalaya river and floods the Atchafalaya Basin all the way to the Gulf of Mexico.
Also published as a ca. 1987 New Yorker article “Atchafalaya”, (about the Old River Control structure). Fans of Zork and Flood Control Dam No. 3 take note.
I grew up in Libya during the building of the GMMR.
I still remember the size of the pipes and the amount of trucks hauling them. One truck one pipe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_Sandstone_Aquifer_Sys...
The Korean companies building the project were massive. They would build a double lane road. One side would be used exclusively for one direction pipe supplies and machines. Eventually when the section completed they would just open the road as a public highway. This really helped Libya build up reach and infrastructure. The truck lines were endless... We are talking km long here...
Eventually when the water reached the coast, I remember I was in Benghazi then. It was good and drinkable from the spring ( this is usually not possible since the water is still salty from the sea) after about a week the sweet water stopped because they started mixing it with the old supply to conserve the desert supplies, the water amount in the desert was over estimated...
All in all Libya was a great country. My family moved to Europe and I remember how much miss information there was about Libya. The 2012 happened...
Ama about the GMMR. I ll try to answer as best as I can and remember.
I still remember the size of the pipes and the amount of trucks hauling them. One truck one pipe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_Sandstone_Aquifer_Sys...
The Korean companies building the project were massive. They would build a double lane road. One side would be used exclusively for one direction pipe supplies and machines. Eventually when the section completed they would just open the road as a public highway. This really helped Libya build up reach and infrastructure. The truck lines were endless... We are talking km long here...
Eventually when the water reached the coast, I remember I was in Benghazi then. It was good and drinkable from the spring ( this is usually not possible since the water is still salty from the sea) after about a week the sweet water stopped because they started mixing it with the old supply to conserve the desert supplies, the water amount in the desert was over estimated...
All in all Libya was a great country. My family moved to Europe and I remember how much miss information there was about Libya. The 2012 happened...
Ama about the GMMR. I ll try to answer as best as I can and remember.
I guess you are being downvoted because you are saying that Libya was better off before Obama "saved" it.
Seriously fuck him for his warmongering, he should be rotting in jail for what he did.
Seriously fuck him for his warmongering, he should be rotting in jail for what he did.
Downvotes are because @thendrill made a copy paste comment from @Viker. Or may be that one is. Two profiles probably.
I've seen this a few times recently here - a comment being copy/pasted exactly for the same article. Is this something that's common but I've only just noticed, a coincidence or something else that's going on? Perhaps something Dang knows about.
Vikers comment has a bigger id number so maybe thats newer? Can we see exact timestamps? I cant find one on mobile.
[deleted]
I am pretty sure I deleted this comment.
I waited 20 min and the comment never showed up. Then I assumed I am shadowbanned or something on this account because of negative karma.... So I deleted this and posted it on the other account.
Appologies for the mess up.
Another thing ? How can I request full account deletion from hacker news ?
Appologies for the mess up.
Another thing ? How can I request full account deletion from hacker news ?
Email [email protected] for any moderation questions.
Really fantastic project. Gives me Dune vibes. May it long continue to supply many with the water they need.
It seems to be struggling currently, but certainly it's already proven to be a resilient piece of infrastructure given the circumstances:
On 22 July during the 2011 Libyan civil war, one of the two plants making pipes for the project, the Brega Plant, was hit by a NATO air strike.[18] At a press conference on 26 July, NATO claimed that rockets had been fired from within the plant area, and that military material, including multiple rocket launchers, was stored there according to intelligence findings, presenting a photo showing a BM-21 MRL as an example.[19]
During the second Libyan civil war, lasting from 2014 to 2020, the water infrastructure suffered neglect and occasional breakdowns. As of July 2019, 101 of 479 wells on the western pipeline system had been dismantled.[20]
On 10 April 2020, a station controlling water flow to Tripoli and neighboring towns was seized by an unknown armed group. The flow of water was cut to over two million people as a result, and as such the attack was condemned by the United Nations on humanitarian grounds.[21]
On 22 July during the 2011 Libyan civil war, one of the two plants making pipes for the project, the Brega Plant, was hit by a NATO air strike.[18] At a press conference on 26 July, NATO claimed that rockets had been fired from within the plant area, and that military material, including multiple rocket launchers, was stored there according to intelligence findings, presenting a photo showing a BM-21 MRL as an example.[19]
During the second Libyan civil war, lasting from 2014 to 2020, the water infrastructure suffered neglect and occasional breakdowns. As of July 2019, 101 of 479 wells on the western pipeline system had been dismantled.[20]
On 10 April 2020, a station controlling water flow to Tripoli and neighboring towns was seized by an unknown armed group. The flow of water was cut to over two million people as a result, and as such the attack was condemned by the United Nations on humanitarian grounds.[21]
That feels like a post-apocalyptic story now, remnants of great, more developed civilization.
"During the second Libyan civil war, lasting from 2014 to 2020, the water infrastructure suffered neglect and occasional breakdowns. As of July 2019, 101 of 479 wells on the western pipeline system had been dismantled"
It is not all gone and still somewhat working, but how long?
It is not all gone and still somewhat working, but how long?
[deleted]
Remind me again why the fuck Obama rallied NATO to fuck that country up again and how Obama is still seen as the messiah to socialist and progressives after doing that?
Why ? They have oil. Cheap oil. They were competing with the British-American Oil companies.
It wasn’t just Obama. France, Italy, and Turkey perpetuate the conflict.
Obama didn't even "rally NATO" at all. France was the first mover.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_...
>23 February 2011: French President Nicolas Sarkozy pushed for the European Union (EU) to pass sanctions against Gaddafi (freezing Gaddafi family funds abroad) and demand he stop attacks against civilians.
>26 February 2011: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 was passed unanimously, referring the Libyan government to the International Criminal Court for gross human rights violations.
>28 February 2011: British Prime Minister David Cameron proposed the idea of a no-fly zone
>1 March 2011: The US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging the United Nations Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone
>2 March 2011: The Governor General of Canada-in-Council authorised, on the advice of Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper
>7 March 2011: US Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder announced that NATO decided to step up surveillance missions of E-3 AWACS aircraft to twenty-four hours a day.
France, the UK, the UNSC, the US Senate, and Canada all made moves before Obama's executive branch took any major actions. (Notably, all except the UNSC were controlled by right-wing political parties at the time.) But Obama is the most popular political figure in the country and has been for a decade, and it's lonely at the top...
https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/politic...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_...
>23 February 2011: French President Nicolas Sarkozy pushed for the European Union (EU) to pass sanctions against Gaddafi (freezing Gaddafi family funds abroad) and demand he stop attacks against civilians.
>26 February 2011: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 was passed unanimously, referring the Libyan government to the International Criminal Court for gross human rights violations.
>28 February 2011: British Prime Minister David Cameron proposed the idea of a no-fly zone
>1 March 2011: The US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging the United Nations Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone
>2 March 2011: The Governor General of Canada-in-Council authorised, on the advice of Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper
>7 March 2011: US Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder announced that NATO decided to step up surveillance missions of E-3 AWACS aircraft to twenty-four hours a day.
France, the UK, the UNSC, the US Senate, and Canada all made moves before Obama's executive branch took any major actions. (Notably, all except the UNSC were controlled by right-wing political parties at the time.) But Obama is the most popular political figure in the country and has been for a decade, and it's lonely at the top...
https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/politic...
> United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970
It's a shame China and Russia voted in favour.
Similar perhaps, the rather extensive rail network in Middle East and Arabian Peninsula which were blown up in the First World war, most of it was never mended.
OT I guess but the Wagner Group have recently dug a 43 mile fortified trench near Sirte - https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/22/africa/libya-trench-russi...
Reminds me of something I built in Factorio.
I still remember the size of the pipes and the amount of trucks hauling them. One truck one pipe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_Sandstone_Aquifer_Sys...
The Korean companies (Daewoo mainly I think) building the project were massive. They would build a double lane road. One side would be used exclusively for one direction pipe supplies and machines. Eventually when the section completed they would just open the road as a public highway. This really helped Libya build up reach and infrastructure. The truck lines were endless... We are talking km long here...
Eventually when the water reached the coast, I remember I was in Benghazi then. It was good and drinkable from the spring ( this is usually not possible since the water is still salty from the sea) after about a week the sweet water stopped because they started mixing it with the old supply to conserve the desert supplies, the water amount in the desert was over estimated...
All in all Libya was a great country. My family moved to Europe and I remember how much miss information there was about Libya. Then 2012 happened...
Ama about the GMMR. I ll try to answer as best as I can and remember.