March Update: Status Report(pine64.org)
pine64.org
March Update: Status Report
https://www.pine64.org/2021/03/15/march-update/
38 comments
Unless something significant changes, I think 2+ years is looking a lot more like the status quo.
The problem is that fabrication plants are hella expensive to tool. That's why there are so few companies worldwide that can participate.
The problem is that fabrication plants are hella expensive to tool. That's why there are so few companies worldwide that can participate.
I remember starting to have trouble placing seasonal orders for dc power supplies 4 years ago - this isn’t going away anytime soon. There is an opportunity here for someone/some group with deeeeeep pockets and some vision. Unlike a risky biotech, you know the tech is good and the market is there, this is a supply problem (all the way down to mining).
So this didn't used to be a problem but now it's a problem that only someone with deep pockets and vision can take on? What happened? Genuinely curious.
I wonder if this could be the thing that drives on-shoring in the west.
Considering current demand and lights-out automation, I wouldn't be surprised this becomes more of a thing. Apple's not going to do it, but something like Pine64 or similar will beat them to the punch.
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Someone like Pine64 will make it work, then Apple will "invent" it and add another trillion in market cap for doings do... /s
Just wait to the cold war with China really gets started and you can't buy anything from there at all!
We’ve been hearing about Chip shortages for awhile now, but this was the first first-party explanation I’ve seen. I think these monthly updates really helps to add some inside perspective on hardware manufacturing. Even if you don’t buy Pine64 products, these are super interesting to read.
I'm really looking forward to the PinePhone keyboard. Except for web-browsing, I use Emacs for almost everything else, so just give me a way to conveniently use Emacs on the PinePhone like I used to on the Nokia N900 and I can almost excuse all the PinePhone’s other flaws (e.g. a weak processor resembling a low-end Android phone from 2014, and a hard limit of 3GB of RAM on that processor).
However, though the hardware seems to be progressing well, I worry about the software side, both developing for the phone and using the phone enough to produce good bug reports. Is it just me, or is there much less community activity around the PinePhone than there was around the Nokia N900?
However, though the hardware seems to be progressing well, I worry about the software side, both developing for the phone and using the phone enough to produce good bug reports. Is it just me, or is there much less community activity around the PinePhone than there was around the Nokia N900?
Regarding community activity: I think there‘s a lot going on, I had no problem to write my weekly update for my blog (https://linmob.net) for 37 times now and I have trouble testing and adding all the software projects to http://appl.ist).
Like everything these days, the active community seems to be more scattered, while PINE64 has a forum, this not really the central place Maemo.org seemed to be (I could not afford a N900 at the time). There are multiple subreddits, Twitter, the fediverse, chat rooms (and all the distributions have their own channels) – all this makes it hard to make sure to not miss out.
Like everything these days, the active community seems to be more scattered, while PINE64 has a forum, this not really the central place Maemo.org seemed to be (I could not afford a N900 at the time). There are multiple subreddits, Twitter, the fediverse, chat rooms (and all the distributions have their own channels) – all this makes it hard to make sure to not miss out.
Besides being open source and not connected to big tech, and besides being designed/built with privacy in mind, what fundamental security advantages does a project like Pine offer over aapl/goog's efforts, from a hardware/software design perspective? Apologies for the simplistic inquiry.
The reason for asking is that goog/aapl have had generations of highly paid talent trudging through a security nightmare and are presumably generations ahead of what is even feasible for non-big tech interests.
The reason for asking is that goog/aapl have had generations of highly paid talent trudging through a security nightmare and are presumably generations ahead of what is even feasible for non-big tech interests.
It allows easilly booting from external media, without involving any existing changeable SW on the phone.
Without HW mods, there's nothing some malware can do to persist itself in the device and prevent you from running exactly what you want and nothing else. You can just insert a known good uSD card, and the SoC will boot from it.
So you can conceivably use an OS from uSD card as an outside root of trust for verifying/reflashing the changeable parts of the phone.
Normally the trust is rooted in some fused keys and hopefully properly implemented bootloader, which seems inherently less trustworthy and much more complex.
Without HW mods, there's nothing some malware can do to persist itself in the device and prevent you from running exactly what you want and nothing else. You can just insert a known good uSD card, and the SoC will boot from it.
So you can conceivably use an OS from uSD card as an outside root of trust for verifying/reflashing the changeable parts of the phone.
Normally the trust is rooted in some fused keys and hopefully properly implemented bootloader, which seems inherently less trustworthy and much more complex.
The security advantage it offers is specifically to remove aapl/goog from the equation. The security features big tech is offering these days is primarily designed to lock you into their ecosystem and out of your device rather than actually securing it for you. The primary security they're offering is from casual hacking, which of course has value if you're not tech savvy and unable to do that for yourself.
is that really the case? apple as example, they develop secretive and innovative security measures that, while compatible with their corporate mandates, do actually aim to protect end users. yes, this is in contradiction to certain privacy needs, user lock-in, etc as you mentioned
primarily, i am interested to learn what pine or other offering does outside of the obvious benefits of it being open. specifically, what security measures on their own merit, hardware and/or software, does pine offer, either uniquely or in an effort to "catch up" (e.g. secure enclave)
primarily, i am interested to learn what pine or other offering does outside of the obvious benefits of it being open. specifically, what security measures on their own merit, hardware and/or software, does pine offer, either uniquely or in an effort to "catch up" (e.g. secure enclave)
Yes, I believe it is. You're dismissing out of hand one of the primary security benefits of an open device while giving far too much credit to Apple.
For the open device, (with one glaring hole: they don't support full device encryption i.e. the bootloader etc... yet) you can encrypt your data such that if you lose the key, it is effectively unrecoverable. There is no communication with any 3rd parties that you don't specifically allow/enable. That is a killer security feature of the device: there's no 3rd party between you and your data.
On the Apple side, you're crediting them with 'secretive and innovative' when the reality is they only provide users as much security as their business model requires. All Apple really offers is security from casual hackers and when it suits their purposes, from the user/purchaser of the device. The fact that Apple is in a position to respond to a government demand with anything other than a blob of encrypted data tells you all you need to know about how secure your data really is with them. (I'd love to be corrected if it's realistic these days to use an i-device without their cloud services enabled... I left their ecosystem years ago so I am speculating that it's not)
There's no magic when it comes to security: either you provide the foundation to allow for a secure environment (which Pine appears to be working toward) or you don't (Apple likely never will as they appear to not want to piss off various governments).
For the open device, (with one glaring hole: they don't support full device encryption i.e. the bootloader etc... yet) you can encrypt your data such that if you lose the key, it is effectively unrecoverable. There is no communication with any 3rd parties that you don't specifically allow/enable. That is a killer security feature of the device: there's no 3rd party between you and your data.
On the Apple side, you're crediting them with 'secretive and innovative' when the reality is they only provide users as much security as their business model requires. All Apple really offers is security from casual hackers and when it suits their purposes, from the user/purchaser of the device. The fact that Apple is in a position to respond to a government demand with anything other than a blob of encrypted data tells you all you need to know about how secure your data really is with them. (I'd love to be corrected if it's realistic these days to use an i-device without their cloud services enabled... I left their ecosystem years ago so I am speculating that it's not)
There's no magic when it comes to security: either you provide the foundation to allow for a secure environment (which Pine appears to be working toward) or you don't (Apple likely never will as they appear to not want to piss off various governments).
Not dismiss but inquire.
I don't know enough about Pine, but aapl/goog have had hackers battle testing their platforms for a while. I don't see how an open platform can leapfrog ahead unless aapl/goog truly are sabotaging security for "big bro"
yes, cloud is a big hole, but are we hiding from the law? aapl only responds to warrant requests -- supposedly.
(on a side note, afaik, aapl is building their own baseband proc, which presumably will be a good thing for security)
What you said makes a ton of sense, but curious to see in practice how the security of such a device will hold up. you'd have to expect that the platform will have holes, being so new -- and that there wont be enough eyes on, not without adoption. paradox.
yes, open device means far greater flexibility on security posture but this presumes a mature, battle tested tool set. (and may or may not be built on a better foundation than corporate closed phone tech -- hence inquiry)
contrarily and back to my original inquiry -- i still wonder if there are fundamental design choices inherent to Pine that separate it from (or bring it on par with) commercial offerings. (besides those elucidated by you and another commenter -- thanks). for instance, physical boundaries such as a secure enclave, etc
i challenge the notion about aapl and casual hackers. every non-trivial platform has bugs, whether open or closed. there isn't a way to casually own an up to date iOS device, for instance -- if one had such an exploit it would be worth a lot of money to aapl or a broker
sorry for free form reply
I don't know enough about Pine, but aapl/goog have had hackers battle testing their platforms for a while. I don't see how an open platform can leapfrog ahead unless aapl/goog truly are sabotaging security for "big bro"
yes, cloud is a big hole, but are we hiding from the law? aapl only responds to warrant requests -- supposedly.
(on a side note, afaik, aapl is building their own baseband proc, which presumably will be a good thing for security)
What you said makes a ton of sense, but curious to see in practice how the security of such a device will hold up. you'd have to expect that the platform will have holes, being so new -- and that there wont be enough eyes on, not without adoption. paradox.
yes, open device means far greater flexibility on security posture but this presumes a mature, battle tested tool set. (and may or may not be built on a better foundation than corporate closed phone tech -- hence inquiry)
contrarily and back to my original inquiry -- i still wonder if there are fundamental design choices inherent to Pine that separate it from (or bring it on par with) commercial offerings. (besides those elucidated by you and another commenter -- thanks). for instance, physical boundaries such as a secure enclave, etc
i challenge the notion about aapl and casual hackers. every non-trivial platform has bugs, whether open or closed. there isn't a way to casually own an up to date iOS device, for instance -- if one had such an exploit it would be worth a lot of money to aapl or a broker
sorry for free form reply
I love how they're clear about component cost increases. They're worried about a chnage from 200->220 because of the LCD panel. Given the good reviews, I think that's completely reasonable.
I always wonder when I read these, wouldn't it be easier to focus on one project? It seems they've gone to town! Laptops, watches, phones!
I'm still trying to understand why they sell a soldering iron with a cpu and os.
I have the soldering iron that is based off, the TS100, and it's really useful. The CPU lets you regulate temperature, and it has features like lowering the temperature when you don't move it for a bit. That's what the CPU is there for, it's really just a microcontroller. Good luck making a (minimally decent) soldering iron without one for temperature control.
My soldering iron is like 30 years old and has 1 to 10 dial. Works great the few times I use it.
I think this is likely to be down to the different expectation/requirements of people who use their soldering iron a few times in 30 years, compared to people who have theirs hot most or every day.
I bet your soldering iron is fine for everything you want it to do. I also be it won't let you work with tiny SMD components or reattach micro usb connectors out at the drone field where you damaged it in a crash...
I bet your soldering iron is fine for everything you want it to do. I also be it won't let you work with tiny SMD components or reattach micro usb connectors out at the drone field where you damaged it in a crash...
There are some cheap DC-powered soldering irons in a similar form factor which use a dial and potentiometer to set the temperature and an op-amp for temperature regulation. No processor in sight. Apparently they work reasonably well.
Does it give you a digital display of the temperature (in Celsius or Fahrenheit, configurable)? Does it sleep if not moved? Can it run off a battery pack and monitor the power of said battery pack to safely shut off?
Not everyone needs those features. If you do or want them, the moment you add even the simplest logic, you are better off getting a microcontroller already. No reason to bother with discrete logic chips anymore.
I have used for many years a standard soldering iron (not even a soldering station) with zero logic whatsoever. It worked, but nowadays I prefer to be able to set the exact temperature I want, to the degree. And to be able to monitor if the iron is able to handle the thermal mass I'm trying to solder.
Not everyone needs those features. If you do or want them, the moment you add even the simplest logic, you are better off getting a microcontroller already. No reason to bother with discrete logic chips anymore.
I have used for many years a standard soldering iron (not even a soldering station) with zero logic whatsoever. It worked, but nowadays I prefer to be able to set the exact temperature I want, to the degree. And to be able to monitor if the iron is able to handle the thermal mass I'm trying to solder.
I look at analog audio processing gear sometimes... so expensive. It really holds its value, unlike the digital hardware and software.
Use one for a while.
Desktop soldering irons have had sleep features for years -- the temperature relaxes when you put it in the holder (or after it's been in the holder for a while) to reduce tip oxidation, but keep it warm-ish so it'll be back to soldering temperature very quickly when you pick it back up. These are based on a processor, you just don't have access to it as a user, so the timeout and temperature are set by the factory and that's it.
There are plenty of soldering irons with a digital display, which allows you to calibrate the temperature response using a simple two-point process, rather than back-and-forth twiddling of the gains of a couple of opamps on the old analog stations. Those were such a pain to calibrate, few folks bothered, and the temperature setpoint on the dial grew increasingly fictional with age. The digital ones are based on a processor, but often the UI is so terrible (two buttons, three digits of 7-segment display) there could be more features back there but nobody would use them.
When OLED displays got cheap, that changed things. You can now have high-res text without a huge screen, and finally give someone all the knobs they'd want. Timeouts extend tip life. Calibration is really good and easy. Momentary boost mode for large joints without having to change the setpoint. It's the features you'd find in a thousand-dollar Pace station, in a sub-hundred-dollar portable iron, because all the complexity is in software.
And, bonus, since it runs off random DC, you can use any laptop brick you have sitting around, or batteries. They're extremely popular with RC hobbyists for field repairs as a result, and when running from battery you need another feature -- low-input shutdown, so you don't accidentally overdischarge the battery, which can damage it. Yet another feature that costs $0 once the hardware is there.
Desktop soldering irons have had sleep features for years -- the temperature relaxes when you put it in the holder (or after it's been in the holder for a while) to reduce tip oxidation, but keep it warm-ish so it'll be back to soldering temperature very quickly when you pick it back up. These are based on a processor, you just don't have access to it as a user, so the timeout and temperature are set by the factory and that's it.
There are plenty of soldering irons with a digital display, which allows you to calibrate the temperature response using a simple two-point process, rather than back-and-forth twiddling of the gains of a couple of opamps on the old analog stations. Those were such a pain to calibrate, few folks bothered, and the temperature setpoint on the dial grew increasingly fictional with age. The digital ones are based on a processor, but often the UI is so terrible (two buttons, three digits of 7-segment display) there could be more features back there but nobody would use them.
When OLED displays got cheap, that changed things. You can now have high-res text without a huge screen, and finally give someone all the knobs they'd want. Timeouts extend tip life. Calibration is really good and easy. Momentary boost mode for large joints without having to change the setpoint. It's the features you'd find in a thousand-dollar Pace station, in a sub-hundred-dollar portable iron, because all the complexity is in software.
And, bonus, since it runs off random DC, you can use any laptop brick you have sitting around, or batteries. They're extremely popular with RC hobbyists for field repairs as a result, and when running from battery you need another feature -- low-input shutdown, so you don't accidentally overdischarge the battery, which can damage it. Yet another feature that costs $0 once the hardware is there.
I like that it's small and I can just plug it to USB-C charger that's on my table. I also have a bigger soldering station, but it takes valuable space on the table.
For quick soldering jobs it's faster to just use pinecil, instead of setting up soldering station on the table.
I don't care much for electronic control. Apparently it has a bunch of features, but I don't use any of those.
For quick soldering jobs it's faster to just use pinecil, instead of setting up soldering station on the table.
I don't care much for electronic control. Apparently it has a bunch of features, but I don't use any of those.
Lower the temperature or turn off when not moved for some time, better temperature control via PIDs, set a voltage cutoff when running off battery packs...
https://github.com/Ralim/IronOS#key-features
https://github.com/Ralim/IronOS#key-features
OS is a misnomer. It doesn't have an OS, just firmware.
Yes this
I imagine the broad range of products helps attract more tinkerers than individual projects might. Like maybe someone sees the PineBook and then jumps to the PinePhone once they join the community.
Why is every linux laptop manufacturer insistent on using panels which likely came from a dumpster behind a 7-11 ? I have yet to see an open source laptop with anything above 1080p which looks like complete ass, and makes you want to claw out your eyes after an hour of real work ..
Very cool to see their community update video is also available on LBRY (https://lbry.tv) and PeerTube (https://joinpeertube.org/).
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'Quoting the words of a factory head we work with: “I haven’t seen anything like this in the 15 years that I’ve been in the business.”'
When will we get back to a status quo, or is "2+ years unless you're a multi-billion-dollar company" the new status quo for sourcing things now?