Children are spoofing Covid-19 tests with soft drinks(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Children are spoofing Covid-19 tests with soft drinks
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210705-how-children-are-spoofing-covid-19-tests-with-soft-drinks
259 comments
Kudos to whichever kid discovered this. They're a damn industrious lot when it comes to avoiding school work.
True story: During Zoom classes, a friend's kid used to move his lips without emitting any sound faking a mic problem in order to not receive questions from his teacher
When I was in high school, we had one BC Calculus teacher for the entire school district. He'd visit each school round-robin and would teach the other schools via video conference. Given that this was 20 years ago, we'd have streaming issues with some frequency. The solution was usually to reboot the streaming machine at the teacher's location.
One day before class when the teacher wasn't at our school, one kid said, "when I cough three times, everyone freeze." About 20 mins into the lecture, he did just that and we all held our positions. The teacher noticed about ten second later, asked us a bunch of times if we could hear him, and then, with exasperation, said, "well looks like they froze up again..."
We had a good laugh for the two mins or so we were down and then continued on. I don't think anyone ever blabbed that we had faked it just for kicks.
One day before class when the teacher wasn't at our school, one kid said, "when I cough three times, everyone freeze." About 20 mins into the lecture, he did just that and we all held our positions. The teacher noticed about ten second later, asked us a bunch of times if we could hear him, and then, with exasperation, said, "well looks like they froze up again..."
We had a good laugh for the two mins or so we were down and then continued on. I don't think anyone ever blabbed that we had faked it just for kicks.
My daughter did kindergarten online. I once observed that at least some kid behaviors remain the same online.
The teacher lost connection one day and one of the kids said "she's gone!" and it was immediate chaos, everyone started talking and making noises, one kid was literally screaming the whole time, the kids were drawing on the screen and fighting over who was sharing their screen, everyone was laughing and having a good time until the teacher reconnected. Later my daughter fondly told me about it, but I had already overheard the whole thing from the other room.
The teacher lost connection one day and one of the kids said "she's gone!" and it was immediate chaos, everyone started talking and making noises, one kid was literally screaming the whole time, the kids were drawing on the screen and fighting over who was sharing their screen, everyone was laughing and having a good time until the teacher reconnected. Later my daughter fondly told me about it, but I had already overheard the whole thing from the other room.
[deleted]
In my daughter's school during PE on Zoom one kid always had only the left half of his body showing, everybody thought it's a limitation of his camera or something. Then one day his cat moved his laptop and everybody realized he was moving only the visible part of his body and was playing on his phone in the other hand the whole time.
Physical Education class over Zoom is something that I never contemplated being attempted
My kids’ school did it and the results were pretty awful until people pointed out that you have to explicitly tell second graders to make sure they are doing calisthenics in a safe place so they aren’t tripping over school supplies and knocking over lamps, or just flailing their arms into stuff that will hurt them. My kid broke her school-issue iPad on the first day because they didn’t even think to tell the kids to take their headphones off. They just said, “ok, let’s do jumping jacks.” Crash.
Edit: the scariest was when I was getting an early start on some dinner prep and my kid came sprinting through the kitchen in socks while I was going from one side to the other while holding a big knife. They were doing a scavenger hunt and each item would be announced and they’d have 60 seconds to go try to find it. I had to email the teacher about that one and ask them to be cognizant of the safety of what they are asking the kids to do, given that they have no clue what environment each kid is in.
Edit: the scariest was when I was getting an early start on some dinner prep and my kid came sprinting through the kitchen in socks while I was going from one side to the other while holding a big knife. They were doing a scavenger hunt and each item would be announced and they’d have 60 seconds to go try to find it. I had to email the teacher about that one and ask them to be cognizant of the safety of what they are asking the kids to do, given that they have no clue what environment each kid is in.
It's the natural evolution of exercise tapes.
my boomer-aged mother is a PE teacher for K-6th graders in the US. She had to run Zoom PE classes for about six months...it was interesting to watch her learn a new competency.
There are ways to do it, but the fear that she could potentially not be in control of her classroom at ANY MOMENT was something to behold and says something about our education system's focus and beliefs. There was a lot of information from me and my siblings with her on how to do it and options she could pursue to make online PE class engaging...fun times
There are ways to do it, but the fear that she could potentially not be in control of her classroom at ANY MOMENT was something to behold and says something about our education system's focus and beliefs. There was a lot of information from me and my siblings with her on how to do it and options she could pursue to make online PE class engaging...fun times
For a time I taught high school and later college. The key difference between the two jobs is apparent in the interview process. For a high school teaching job, the interviewer wants to know how you will manage the behavior of the students in the room. For a college teaching job, the interviewer wants to know how you will impart your subject matter to the students. Classroom management is easily the most important aspect of K-12 teaching.
I would argue classroom management is the biggest focus of K-12 teaching not the most important aspect.
It speaks to our educational systems priorities and structure not its function
It speaks to our educational systems priorities and structure not its function
If you haven't been at the front of a K12 classroom (and I mean really in front, not the guest lecturer with the teacher in the room to keep things in order), you're not qualified to make that statement. The fact of the matter is that you're with a room full of children. If you can't manage them you can't teach them. Without classroom management, you will fail at everything else. It's easy to forget this when you see a skilled/experienced teacher at the front of the room. They've internalized the management to a level that makes it almost invisible to an onlooker, but it's very much there.
Reminds me of the boy who changed his name on Zoom to Reconnecting
I think the name to use is "Connecting audio..."
and then black out the webcam (don't turn it off). Then the name shows up in the corner, and nobody will nominate you to speak. Heard this via a church group from a teacher at the International School of Geneva. Seems like word gets around fast!
and then black out the webcam (don't turn it off). Then the name shows up in the corner, and nobody will nominate you to speak. Heard this via a church group from a teacher at the International School of Geneva. Seems like word gets around fast!
Awesome pro move!
Cartman?
The teacher could find other ways to test sound. Ask a student to clap their hands, for example (presuming the teacher knows their students are mischievous).
This is similar to another hack I heard: put some clear tape over your camera lens to blur the image. "It looks fine on my end??? I'll just keep my camera off."
You may also like this story where a young girl figured out a way to trick everyone into thinking Zoom was broken so she didn't have to attend online lessons: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/eight-year-old-girl...
TL;DR of that one: she activated a login lock by filling in the wrong password a couple of times.
Zoom support should have been able to see "this account has been locked out due to too many login attempts" though, so that's a bit of a fail. And of course the login error should say as much.
My job here is done; Captain Hindsight, away!
Zoom support should have been able to see "this account has been locked out due to too many login attempts" though, so that's a bit of a fail. And of course the login error should say as much.
My job here is done; Captain Hindsight, away!
The other good one I saw was to change your name to "Connecting..."
lolz... thats really oldschool!! we did with at the BBS-era
also we "echoed" this "Type +++ To go voice chat" was epic
Things that date me: Knowing the Hayes AT command set
Coming from a rural Aussie upbringing, I arrived on the scene slightly too late it incorporate that into a career. +++ath0 was still fun though.
And the AT set is still used (with extensions) in GSM modems! It's still relevant!
And the AT set is still used (with extensions) in GSM modems! It's still relevant!
Even in some wifi "modems". It's like in that "space shuttle size is connected to horse ass width" story.
That seems like instead of a joke, it could be a really cool way to actually implement voice chat... just unlink the modem from the call and use a phone.
Change your name to the teachers name and tell everyone that class is cancelled for the day.
Original Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/mfpiccolo/status/1360685864100237318
(The article just recaps this without linking to it.)
(The article just recaps this without linking to it.)
Good find. I knew I'd seen it in a better format somewhere before but Googling just found 101 articles.
> but Googling just found 101 articles
This is just what Google does now.
This is just what Google does now.
Yes. Don't get me started. Quite frequently recently I've searched for answers to things and the "smart" answers they give are flat out wrong or dangerous because they misinterpreted a text. I should probably start to keep a list..
time to build a search engine hall of fame website, or subreddit?
Yeah. At this point, social engineering is a hallmark of the Covid generation. In retrospect, Zoom hackery almost seemed like the inevitable outcome. We’ve shared good laughs with our kids over the antics “classmates” pulled because of zoom
It's also taken this long to stack enough layers of digital abstractions that kid pranks aren't running afoul of the draconian CFAA.
Imagine a world where schools are not built to resemble factory work conditions but actually catered to kids’ natural curiosity.
Where learning happened via the pull of that curiosity and not via force-feeding.
Where learning happened via the pull of that curiosity and not via force-feeding.
Problem with this is mechanically in terms of schooling. You need general education that has to somehow be given, and how do you arrange teaching for the wishes and whims of hundreds of children?
Even in classical one to one mentoring, an element of curriculum is how learning is shaped and comfort zones broken down.
Even in classical one to one mentoring, an element of curriculum is how learning is shaped and comfort zones broken down.
Seems like you're looking for Montessori schooling. I was actually fortunate enough to attend one for ages 3-5. Although I don't have many memories from then specifically, I do remember repeated bordem when I stopped going and was moved to public school. I always wanted to do more hands on activities as I had before, but the closest it ever got was art.
Another note of interest, my senior class at high school consisted of 4 people whom I attended Montessori with, of those four, three took IB classes and participated in clubs / extracurriculars above the average rate for my school. I can't help but wonder if even just those few years at a young age made a lasting impact.
Another note of interest, my senior class at high school consisted of 4 people whom I attended Montessori with, of those four, three took IB classes and participated in clubs / extracurriculars above the average rate for my school. I can't help but wonder if even just those few years at a young age made a lasting impact.
I'd expect it to be the parents choices, same for whether boredom is tolerated or encouraged at home.
Heard a story from a secondary school teacher during the second lockdown about one of her students that wouldn't enable the video camera because "it's pay-per-minute on their computer".
And sure enough, in the age of everything-as-a-service, that was just about believable to the teacher.
And sure enough, in the age of everything-as-a-service, that was just about believable to the teacher.
I feel like we should find these kids and get them out of school where their time is being wasted. Let's get them into some proper practical training that lines up with their interests or hell, just hire them and teach them on the job. In fact, maybe we could do that for....all the kids?
"School is not a place for smart people" - Rich Sanchez
"School is not a place for smart people" - Rich Sanchez
Not sure that quoting Rick and Morty like it’s some kind of gospel is the best argument for education reform.
It was somewhat tongue in cheek - but only somewhat. But points for getting the reference.
The only thing more delicious than an unironically 'I got a big brain' Rick and Morty quote is when the person making the quote is super confident about how obscure it is.
Because you should immediately mock anyone who might enjoy Rick and Morty and get that happiness feeling when someone recognized the quote from the show they watched which is fairly typical for any film or show someone has watched. Because everyone who watch that show think it's strictly limited to only high IQ individuals and watching, enjoying that show is a clear indicator of higher intelligence.
I read this 3 times and still can't parse what you're trying to say.
That quoting Rick and Morty in no way means they think they are intellectually superior or anything remotely to that. It can very well happen that some topic simply makes you remember a quote and you think it's fitting and you are also glad when someone else recognizes where it is from.
I don’t know that quoting cartoons signals “I got a big brain”. It’s fascinating though that people are commenting on the quote. I didn’t think that would resonate.
Isn't that line from the very first episode of the whole show?
It's true. Time and again we hear stories of bright kids being beaten into submission by the aggressive uniformity of our school system.
It is HARD to get the ones who do the worst to work at the level of those who do well.
It is "easy", however, to make everyone suck equally as much at school. At least that is my experience.
I actually got diagnosed with a high IQ, which I got tested for because most classes were boring to me and thus I didn't really do well. As aresult of me not being challenged much if at all back then, I never really learned how to learn.
Thus I slid further and further down with learning until I dropped out.
IMO there should be more separation between kids with high and low abilities at school. Push the "better" ones much harder, while also providing specially trained teachers to the "worse" ones. Don't try to get everyone to the same level.
It is "easy", however, to make everyone suck equally as much at school. At least that is my experience.
I actually got diagnosed with a high IQ, which I got tested for because most classes were boring to me and thus I didn't really do well. As aresult of me not being challenged much if at all back then, I never really learned how to learn.
Thus I slid further and further down with learning until I dropped out.
IMO there should be more separation between kids with high and low abilities at school. Push the "better" ones much harder, while also providing specially trained teachers to the "worse" ones. Don't try to get everyone to the same level.
It could just as easily have been a quote from Foucault. Not sure that makes it any less edgy though.
School is not a place for kids low in trait conscienciousness. This can often mean smart, as it has a correlation with IQ, but mostly it's conscienciousness.
Put those kids in honors, AP, IB, or advanced classes.
Definitely did stuff like this in school. I was in a honours social studies class, and would consistently say "We're the honours class, there's got to be a better way to teach this" whenever our teacher decided we were just going to take notes for the day. He was always very excited about it, and would come up with huge class exercises to teach the topic. It was really awesome but would end up taking the whole week instead of the one day worth of note taking. We ended up doing about 1/4 of the curriculum that year, and the final was incredibly short.
This wasn't "discovered" by any kid. That observation has been around for a while and its source is people who looked for reasons to discredit the meaningfulness of that test.
Ingenuity at work is always a beautiful sight.
Only slightly related. But I went to the bahamas about a month ago. One of the "hooks" they used to make tourists feel comfortable with coming to their resorts was that if you got COVID ( tested positive on the way home test). They would either pay for a hotel and accommodations for a 10 day quarantine or fly you back in a private jet.
All that being said when they administered the covid test on the way back to the US. I'm not even sure they stuck the Q-tip, what should qualify as, in my nose.
Point is, its not just children trying to spoof covid tests.
All that being said when they administered the covid test on the way back to the US. I'm not even sure they stuck the Q-tip, what should qualify as, in my nose.
Point is, its not just children trying to spoof covid tests.
That’s … so wrong but also doesn’t surprise me at all. When the incentives don’t align, I assume these hacks will be the default.
Only slightly related. 10 times more people died from the jab than the virus in Scotland:
https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/07/18/5522-people-have-died-w...
https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/07/18/5522-people-have-died-w...
That's not what "died within 28 days" means; correlation does not imply causation. In fact, the data linked lacks any cause of death; without that column, we should assume these numbers are all cause of death, from respiratory failure to blunt-force trauma.
Interesting how one group (children in school) are trying to fake a positive result while at the same time another group (club and party goers) are faking negative tests.
Here is the opportunity for someone to create some sort of marketplace where those two groups can sell tests to each other.
As the saying goes, most children under 18 would test as sociopaths.
Apparently that includes older club and party goers as well.
Apparently that includes older club and party goers as well.
To be fair given how miserable the education system often makes kids I think it’s a bit harsh describing them as sociopaths for wanting to avoid it.
The fact literal retirees are known to still have occasional nightmares about exams goes to show there’s something deeply psychologically taxing about our schools that I think we’ll look back upon in a hundred year’s time as fairly barbaric, just as we look at corporal punishment in schools of the past as barbarism today.
The fact literal retirees are known to still have occasional nightmares about exams goes to show there’s something deeply psychologically taxing about our schools that I think we’ll look back upon in a hundred year’s time as fairly barbaric, just as we look at corporal punishment in schools of the past as barbarism today.
Some teenagers have to go to pretty absurd lengths to escape the "structure" that has been imposed upon them. I'm sure that's where some of the "sociopathy" comes from. In my experience, though, adults are much less cooperative or agreeable in just about every scenario when compared to youngsters when it comes to not getting their way.
There is nothing sociopathic in wanting to end the abuse that mandatory education system is
tl;dr: The test can only be spoofed if it isn't conducted properly, by not doing the step with the buffer solution [1] [2]. You may even be able to unspoof the test by applying the buffer solution after the fact.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMcUzvrn75E
[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-coca-cola-posit...
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMcUzvrn75E
[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-coca-cola-posit...
> Fact check: Coca-Cola does not cause a positive COVID-19 test
I find it very difficult to agree with that headline. We have lots of proof that putting coke on a covid test makes the test positive. Coca Cola unequivocally causes a positive result.
That's like saying " X vulnerability in our software doesn't actually exist, because if any would-be hackers just followed the rules then they wouldn't be able to exploit the vuln".
I find it very difficult to agree with that headline. We have lots of proof that putting coke on a covid test makes the test positive. Coca Cola unequivocally causes a positive result.
That's like saying " X vulnerability in our software doesn't actually exist, because if any would-be hackers just followed the rules then they wouldn't be able to exploit the vuln".
"Coca-Cola causes positive COVID-19 test" would be a headline that to many would imply that simply drinking a coke is enough to cause you to get a positive test.
I don't think that's what's happening.
I don't think that's what's happening.
It is quite a disappointment for a "fact checker" to play fast and loose with the facts in order to optimize the headline.
There are plenty of factually correct headlines they could have chosen:
"Putting cola on a covid test causes a false positive"
"Improper use of covid test causes positive result"
etc. You would hope that professional journalists would be capable of writing a clear and correct headline.
There are plenty of factually correct headlines they could have chosen:
"Putting cola on a covid test causes a false positive"
"Improper use of covid test causes positive result"
etc. You would hope that professional journalists would be capable of writing a clear and correct headline.
It's almost like a world wide professional word-smith company should be capable of constructing an accurate and true headline.
Otherwise why are you considering any of their other texts worth reading?
Otherwise why are you considering any of their other texts worth reading?
Reuters fact checking seems to be particularly bad lately tbh
They should buy a bag of tests and some soft drinks from their company and their competitors and just publish a page where they show that: Some soft drinks might break some tests making the results worthless.
It's not a positive result (that implies the person has covid) it's that it damages the test. Like shorting the circuit of an electronic pregnancy test...
It's not a positive result (that implies the person has covid) it's that it damages the test. Like shorting the circuit of an electronic pregnancy test...
For completeness with regard to unspoofing, it should be demonstrated that post-test application of the buffer does not reverse a truly positive test.
>Absorbed on the red pad are antibodies that bind to the Covid-19 virus. They are also attached to gold nanoparticles (tiny particles of gold actually appear red), which allow us to see where the antibodies are on the device.
Gold appearing red when in small-enough particles is used to make stained glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stained_glass#Red_glass
Gold appearing red when in small-enough particles is used to make stained glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stained_glass#Red_glass
Amazing how determined kids can be at trying to get off school!
The downside to this is that it deprives their classmates as entire bubbles get sent home I think.
The downside to this is that it deprives their classmates as entire bubbles get sent home I think.
> The downside to this is that it deprives their classmates
Assume probability of false positive is 1%. If you are tested weekly, there is a 41% chance you'll falsely test positive at least once in a year. If you are tested every workday, 93% chance. This is assuming there is no malfeasance.
If you assume a false positive probability of 5%, the probabilities go up to 93% and 100%.
The negative effects of false positives are the same whether kids are using soda or something else is causing them. At some point, the costs have to be weighed against the benefits.
Here is a false positive/false negative simulator I put together last year (thrice silently banned -- so I stopped trying to do more after restoring it one last time) helps you explore what happens with various scenarios of infection rates and false positive/negative probabilities.
Linking to the discussion to provide context for the app:
https://www.covid2020.icu/false-positive-false-negative-simu...
Assume probability of false positive is 1%. If you are tested weekly, there is a 41% chance you'll falsely test positive at least once in a year. If you are tested every workday, 93% chance. This is assuming there is no malfeasance.
If you assume a false positive probability of 5%, the probabilities go up to 93% and 100%.
The negative effects of false positives are the same whether kids are using soda or something else is causing them. At some point, the costs have to be weighed against the benefits.
Here is a false positive/false negative simulator I put together last year (thrice silently banned -- so I stopped trying to do more after restoring it one last time) helps you explore what happens with various scenarios of infection rates and false positive/negative probabilities.
Linking to the discussion to provide context for the app:
https://www.covid2020.icu/false-positive-false-negative-simu...
Part of the reason it took so long to roll out these lateral flow tests is that it was hard to find ones with an acceptably low false positive rate - it needed to be well below 1% for exactly the reason you outline. (Apparently PHE estimates it at less than 1 in 1000: https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2021/03/30/covid-19-... )
Even when the rate of Covid infections in the UK was much lower than it currently is, retesting of people using PCR suggested that the large majority of positives were in fact true positives, at least amongst the adults retested. It's possible that the story is different for kids, but on the other hand they're not vaccinated in the UK whereas many adults are...
Even when the rate of Covid infections in the UK was much lower than it currently is, retesting of people using PCR suggested that the large majority of positives were in fact true positives, at least amongst the adults retested. It's possible that the story is different for kids, but on the other hand they're not vaccinated in the UK whereas many adults are...
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4469
and
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n706
both make interesting reading.
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n706
both make interesting reading.
My workspace immediately retests if you get a positive. While you wait.
That seems like a good way to miss infections (and get people back to work, which is probably the point).
The tests seem to have a high false-negative rate. Assuming independence and 25% FN rate, a second test will miss an additional 20% of infections of all people tested.
The tests seem to have a high false-negative rate. Assuming independence and 25% FN rate, a second test will miss an additional 20% of infections of all people tested.
Same at my kids school. Whenever they have a positive antibody test, they just do it again.
I think that the antibody tests are sketchy in the first place, but if they don't even stick to the protocol and don't follow up positive antibody tests with PCR tests, it's almost pointless.
I think that the antibody tests are sketchy in the first place, but if they don't even stick to the protocol and don't follow up positive antibody tests with PCR tests, it's almost pointless.
PCR or something else? If PCR, is the number of cycles pre-set or is that a choice variable?
Maybe we should attempt to improve the education system so children are happier to be there...
Or, maybe we should stop testing asymptomatic people
You sound like a squib, not a muggle
This made me literally LOL. You will NEVER be able to make all children happy with going to school. Attempting it is almost a fool's errand. Even in nice posh schools, there will still be kids unhappy. It's just human nature.
... which is a childish reaction from what is seemingly an adult person.
Yes globally school systems need a massive rehaul, anybody can name easily 10 things that would improve schools for everyone, probably any school. No we shouldn't give up just because its hard and we already went through it.
Its one of the fuckin' most important things for human civilization, if not the #1 item long term. We don't need to strive for perfection, practically all major improvements would be worth it.
Yes globally school systems need a massive rehaul, anybody can name easily 10 things that would improve schools for everyone, probably any school. No we shouldn't give up just because its hard and we already went through it.
Its one of the fuckin' most important things for human civilization, if not the #1 item long term. We don't need to strive for perfection, practically all major improvements would be worth it.
I would have loved to go to the school Elon Musk built [1] [2] [3] [4] had it existed when I was a kid.
[1] - https://astranova.org/apply
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOEyqqGuEI [video]
[3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io3TiuJsfLc [video]
[4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO22X2AV2xg [video]
[1] - https://astranova.org/apply
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOEyqqGuEI [video]
[3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io3TiuJsfLc [video]
[4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO22X2AV2xg [video]
Is it one of these Montessori-like schools? This is actually a century-old thing.
Yes, it has some advantages, but most of them come from the admission process and high budget. The main problem I see is that you are in a bubble, not like the other kids. It makes it difficult to reintegrate the regular school system if you ever need to. Obviously not a problem for Elon Musk kids, but it may be for middle class children.
Yes, it has some advantages, but most of them come from the admission process and high budget. The main problem I see is that you are in a bubble, not like the other kids. It makes it difficult to reintegrate the regular school system if you ever need to. Obviously not a problem for Elon Musk kids, but it may be for middle class children.
It is very much like the Montessori schools, albeit a different curriculum than any I've seen. I would have been fine being in a bubble. In the school system I went through, I was in a ditch. I would ace all the tests but fail my classes for lack of interest and not seeing any benefit to what I was being taught. I am very stubborn and strong willed. This had no real impact on my life beyond being a waste of time. Again, just my preference. I would have loved being in a school like Elon created but that is just my personal preference based on how I know I learn. I see the current school system as a low quality baby sitter.
If I was in a bubble of self-motivated learners, I think that would have been awesome, because most public schools are run like a prison. I got into so much trouble just from being bored...
And many of my friends would have been miserable there. Point is, you can’t make all kids happy.
Agreed. And building out the variety of schools / teaching styles required to make a majority happy would probably be cost prohibitive.
You can try with different teaching methods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education
[deleted]
I never heard of this and went in with an open mind.
> One study conducted by California State University at Sacramento researchers outlined numerous theories and ideas prevalent throughout Waldorf curricula that were patently pseudoscientific and steeped in magical thinking.
Well, so much for that idea.
> One study conducted by California State University at Sacramento researchers outlined numerous theories and ideas prevalent throughout Waldorf curricula that were patently pseudoscientific and steeped in magical thinking.
Well, so much for that idea.
You could try to improve the system. A big issue is that a lot of teachers are not able to transfer the knowledge to childen or they don't have enough patience. In the faculty i had around 5 professors from around 100 who had enough patience and the skill to transfer the knowledge to other people. The other were either geniuses (they know everything, you are stoopid) or just doing their job.
This is true, however, of nearly all human pursuits. You will never eliminate all poverty, you will never eliminate all racism, you will never reach a point where everyone says the climate is just fine, you will never make everyone healthy or safe enough.
Your options are to "literally LOL" and consider making progress to be a "fool's errand," or you can recognize that eliminating these problems may be impossible but making significant progress is not.
Your options are to "literally LOL" and consider making progress to be a "fool's errand," or you can recognize that eliminating these problems may be impossible but making significant progress is not.
There are different ways of educating people without the mandatory top down school regime.
Making a school nicer won't cut it. Reforming how kids learn may do that.
Making a school nicer won't cut it. Reforming how kids learn may do that.
Everybody happy! I bet you would get mighty popular.
> The downside to this is that it deprives their classmates as entire bubbles get sent home I think.
It would have been the job of governments to actually govern, by transforming schools to work digitally. Just look at Denmark - their schools have been digitalized for over two decades (https://www.aktiv-online.de/news/digitale-schule-in-daenemar...). All they had to do was tell the kids to stay home and that's it. No deprivation, no negative effects.
The complete inaction (how many schools have bought and installed air purifiers vs. how many parliaments?) and incompetence that has been shown towards children all over the Western world in the coronavirus crisis is utterly utterly inexcusable.
It would have been the job of governments to actually govern, by transforming schools to work digitally. Just look at Denmark - their schools have been digitalized for over two decades (https://www.aktiv-online.de/news/digitale-schule-in-daenemar...). All they had to do was tell the kids to stay home and that's it. No deprivation, no negative effects.
The complete inaction (how many schools have bought and installed air purifiers vs. how many parliaments?) and incompetence that has been shown towards children all over the Western world in the coronavirus crisis is utterly utterly inexcusable.
> All they had to do was tell the kids to stay home and that's it. No deprivation, no negative effects.
I think that kids are absolutely deprived of beneficial social interactions when they are sent to be schooled at home versus in-person. Schooling is not solely about academic achievement. Source: I have a 10 and 12 year old who lived this on and off for the last 16 months.
Thought about another way: if there truly was no negative effect, why isn't the education being done 100% remotely in normal conditions? Why have such expensive buildings and transportation needs if there's no benefit?
I think that kids are absolutely deprived of beneficial social interactions when they are sent to be schooled at home versus in-person. Schooling is not solely about academic achievement. Source: I have a 10 and 12 year old who lived this on and off for the last 16 months.
Thought about another way: if there truly was no negative effect, why isn't the education being done 100% remotely in normal conditions? Why have such expensive buildings and transportation needs if there's no benefit?
> Why have such expensive buildings and transportation needs if there's no benefit?
Because modern capitalism demands that children be kept at school for most of the day - in Germany we call the trend "Ganztagsschule"/"whole day school" - so that both parents can be exploited.
Decades ago, school days were far shorter and there were no such things as school lunches simply because 99% of children had a parent at home able to feed them. When children were sick, they were kept at home instead of spreading their germs at school.
We need to get working hours and wages under control. 20 hours of work a week should be more than enough, given the massive automation gains over the last decades.
Because modern capitalism demands that children be kept at school for most of the day - in Germany we call the trend "Ganztagsschule"/"whole day school" - so that both parents can be exploited.
Decades ago, school days were far shorter and there were no such things as school lunches simply because 99% of children had a parent at home able to feed them. When children were sick, they were kept at home instead of spreading their germs at school.
We need to get working hours and wages under control. 20 hours of work a week should be more than enough, given the massive automation gains over the last decades.
If 20 hours a week is enough to live "normally", I think you'll find a whole lot of people choosing to work 50 hours per week to get to retirement in 10 years instead of 45. (At which point, the income provided by 20 hours/week will not have anywhere near the purchasing power that might allow it to be "enough" because so many households will have adults working a total of 50-100 hours per week, which will tend to out-compete households working only 20 or 40 hours per week.).
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
... or you forbid overwork (put a limit on hours) like you currently already do.
Selfexploitation is a thing, yes. But that should not be a reason to immediately give uo hope of ever improving anything.
Selfexploitation is a thing, yes. But that should not be a reason to immediately give uo hope of ever improving anything.
There is nothing "capitalistic" about that.
First, I would consider mandatory education a socialist policy, not a capitalist one. It's completely against the concept of a free market.
I would say it's the result of politics, namely a good part of 2nd wave feminism (but not all) and the destruction of family as an institution. Broken families dependant on welfare are golden for any centralised power who needs votes every 5 years.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure big businesses (who are in bed with the government) benefited plenty from having twice the workforce. More competition in the workplace, lower wages. AND you sound progressive, because you're giving women the privilege of being able to work like your husband.
But there is nothing capitalistic about big businesses profiting from centralised political propaganda. That's the opposite of capitalism.
Automation won't be enough to reduce the number of hours, you need to change people's minds: we don't need a technical solution to work less, we need a social, political one.
EDIT: I didn't realise you support Antifa in your bio (I really don't, couldn't be further away from supporting political violence), which is surprising given we actually agree on the premise, which is that people are working too much and we left government puppets growing our children instead of doing it ourselves.
First, I would consider mandatory education a socialist policy, not a capitalist one. It's completely against the concept of a free market.
I would say it's the result of politics, namely a good part of 2nd wave feminism (but not all) and the destruction of family as an institution. Broken families dependant on welfare are golden for any centralised power who needs votes every 5 years.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure big businesses (who are in bed with the government) benefited plenty from having twice the workforce. More competition in the workplace, lower wages. AND you sound progressive, because you're giving women the privilege of being able to work like your husband.
But there is nothing capitalistic about big businesses profiting from centralised political propaganda. That's the opposite of capitalism.
Automation won't be enough to reduce the number of hours, you need to change people's minds: we don't need a technical solution to work less, we need a social, political one.
EDIT: I didn't realise you support Antifa in your bio (I really don't, couldn't be further away from supporting political violence), which is surprising given we actually agree on the premise, which is that people are working too much and we left government puppets growing our children instead of doing it ourselves.
Ah the good old times when men where in charge and women kept at home to man the heath
How many kids have died from the Wuhan Coronavirus?
Half of the kids who contract Covid19 suffer from "long covid" (per https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/). This is really, really bad.
The worse thing is: every person contracting the virus can develop a mutation that escapes vaccines - and children can spread it to their parents and grandparents.
You never had children I assume? Just look at your coworkers how often they fall sick because of some nasty flu or other bug their children caught in kindergarten or school.
And your "Wuhan coronavirus" naming ... the only people I've heard who call the virus by that name or its similar "China virus" are right-wingers and corona / vaccine deniers.
The worse thing is: every person contracting the virus can develop a mutation that escapes vaccines - and children can spread it to their parents and grandparents.
You never had children I assume? Just look at your coworkers how often they fall sick because of some nasty flu or other bug their children caught in kindergarten or school.
And your "Wuhan coronavirus" naming ... the only people I've heard who call the virus by that name or its similar "China virus" are right-wingers and corona / vaccine deniers.
Why highlight the very small, early study with Half of the kids who contract Covid19 suffer from "long covid"?
The next paragraph in your link gives 14.5%:
The next paragraph in your link gives 14.5%:
The UK Office for National Statistics's latest report
estimates that 12.9 per cent of UK children aged 2 to 11,
and 14.5 per cent of children aged 12 to 16, still have
symptoms five weeks after their first infection. Almost
500,000 UK children have tested positive for covid-19
since March 2020.
Most medical bodies say it normally takes a few days or
weeks to recover from covid-19, and that most will make a
full recovery within 12 weeks.> Half of the kids who contract Covid19 suffer from "long covid"
I don't doubt that there's some likely some fairly common short-medium term health impacts from a nasty flu that's relatively new and unknown. But I strongly wonder how much of these supposed "long-covid" symptoms may be wounds that are partially self-inflicted by society. I believe that natural (and already quite bad) activity patterns have been altered negatively since Covid started and this may have a wide-scale health impact that the establishment doesn't care about. These symptoms may partially stem from basically keeping people locked up inside for months, the media feeding them constant scare stories and stressing them out (stress can prevent good sleep and has many other negative health effects), people eating garbage food because there's not as much else to do, people not getting as much sun (Vitamin D exposure) and exercise as they should be getting, the depressions coming from the unnatural social life we've been forced to endure (covering faces, only communicating via video chats), etc.
> And your "Wuhan coronavirus" naming ... the only people I've heard who call the virus by that name or its similar "China virus" are right-wingers and corona / vaccine deniers.
May I ask what does an idealogical compliance check add to the conversation?
I don't doubt that there's some likely some fairly common short-medium term health impacts from a nasty flu that's relatively new and unknown. But I strongly wonder how much of these supposed "long-covid" symptoms may be wounds that are partially self-inflicted by society. I believe that natural (and already quite bad) activity patterns have been altered negatively since Covid started and this may have a wide-scale health impact that the establishment doesn't care about. These symptoms may partially stem from basically keeping people locked up inside for months, the media feeding them constant scare stories and stressing them out (stress can prevent good sleep and has many other negative health effects), people eating garbage food because there's not as much else to do, people not getting as much sun (Vitamin D exposure) and exercise as they should be getting, the depressions coming from the unnatural social life we've been forced to endure (covering faces, only communicating via video chats), etc.
> And your "Wuhan coronavirus" naming ... the only people I've heard who call the virus by that name or its similar "China virus" are right-wingers and corona / vaccine deniers.
May I ask what does an idealogical compliance check add to the conversation?
> I don't doubt that there's some likely some fairly common short-medium term health impacts from a nasty flu that's relatively new and unknown. But I strongly wonder how much of these supposed "long-covid" symptoms may be wounds that are partially self-inflicted by society.
Activity patterns will no doubt have had some negative impact, but they are not even close to accounting for long-covid symptoms. A change in activity doesn't account for a sudden inability to breathe properly, fatigue so severe that walking is difficult, inflamed hearts, or many of the myriad of other symptoms that long-covid sufferers have reported.
Activity patterns will no doubt have had some negative impact, but they are not even close to accounting for long-covid symptoms. A change in activity doesn't account for a sudden inability to breathe properly, fatigue so severe that walking is difficult, inflamed hearts, or many of the myriad of other symptoms that long-covid sufferers have reported.
> But I strongly wonder how much of these supposed "long-covid" symptoms may be wounds that are partially self-inflicted by society.
Better political action - e.g. following basic science by mandating and enforcing masks, enforcing actual lockdowns, making tests and sick days accessible, supporting poor people who don't have a realistic choice between working sick and not having something to eat, and now that there's vaccines available making them mandatory - would have saved a lot of these wounds!
The differences in coronavirus-caused interruptions between countries with solid leadership and a societal sense of solidarity (e.g. New Zealand, but also many Asian countries for the better part of the last year) and right-wing populist-led or -influenced countries such as the US, Brazil or most of Europe can't be denied any more.
We all need to hold our politicians accountable for their mismanagement and recklessness if we want a chance at restoring our societies and healing the rift.
> May I ask what does an idealogical compliance check add to the conversation?
Simple: I don't want to engage with right wing people and conspiracy myth spreaders in the meatspace and I want to do the same online.
Better political action - e.g. following basic science by mandating and enforcing masks, enforcing actual lockdowns, making tests and sick days accessible, supporting poor people who don't have a realistic choice between working sick and not having something to eat, and now that there's vaccines available making them mandatory - would have saved a lot of these wounds!
The differences in coronavirus-caused interruptions between countries with solid leadership and a societal sense of solidarity (e.g. New Zealand, but also many Asian countries for the better part of the last year) and right-wing populist-led or -influenced countries such as the US, Brazil or most of Europe can't be denied any more.
We all need to hold our politicians accountable for their mismanagement and recklessness if we want a chance at restoring our societies and healing the rift.
> May I ask what does an idealogical compliance check add to the conversation?
Simple: I don't want to engage with right wing people and conspiracy myth spreaders in the meatspace and I want to do the same online.
> I don't want to engage with right wing people and conspiracy myth spreaders in the meatspace and I want to do the same online.
I’m really glad that you’re not in charge.
I’m really glad that you’re not in charge.
> enforcing actual lockdowns
I don't know if you read or understood my comment, but the self-inflicted wounds I describe such as stress, lack of exercise, bad diets, and other problems associated with "long-covid" may be at least partially due to lockdowns. If this is the case, your prescribed solution may exacerbate the problems. A controlled study on this would be interesting.
> The differences in coronavirus-caused interruptions between countries with solid leadership and a societal sense of solidarity (e.g. New Zealand, but also many Asian countries for the better part of the last year) and right-wing populist-led or -influenced countries such as the US, Brazil or most of Europe can't be denied any more.
Without getting into a full-on political debate about the merits of freedom and a good economy's role in preserving vulnerable peoples' lives, I'd like to point out that Covid's effects in different countries may have more than 1 variable that no leader could have solved.
For instance:
* As a relatively isolated island nation, New Zealand had the luxury to lockdown in a way that relatively few nations have.
* Compared to most of the world and especially Asia, Americans are heavier, which seems likely to negatively impact outcomes from this illness.
* America has large populations of people who suffer from Vitamin D deficiency that seems linked to Covid problems that other countries do not have.
> Simple: I don't want to engage with right wing people and conspiracy myth spreaders in the meatspace and I want to do the same online.
Fair enough. Personally, I believe in diversity and diverse ideas and would be interested in engaging with the left, right, middle, libertarian, communist, you name it. Even authoritarians too.
I don't know if you read or understood my comment, but the self-inflicted wounds I describe such as stress, lack of exercise, bad diets, and other problems associated with "long-covid" may be at least partially due to lockdowns. If this is the case, your prescribed solution may exacerbate the problems. A controlled study on this would be interesting.
> The differences in coronavirus-caused interruptions between countries with solid leadership and a societal sense of solidarity (e.g. New Zealand, but also many Asian countries for the better part of the last year) and right-wing populist-led or -influenced countries such as the US, Brazil or most of Europe can't be denied any more.
Without getting into a full-on political debate about the merits of freedom and a good economy's role in preserving vulnerable peoples' lives, I'd like to point out that Covid's effects in different countries may have more than 1 variable that no leader could have solved.
For instance:
* As a relatively isolated island nation, New Zealand had the luxury to lockdown in a way that relatively few nations have.
* Compared to most of the world and especially Asia, Americans are heavier, which seems likely to negatively impact outcomes from this illness.
* America has large populations of people who suffer from Vitamin D deficiency that seems linked to Covid problems that other countries do not have.
> Simple: I don't want to engage with right wing people and conspiracy myth spreaders in the meatspace and I want to do the same online.
Fair enough. Personally, I believe in diversity and diverse ideas and would be interested in engaging with the left, right, middle, libertarian, communist, you name it. Even authoritarians too.
Another group who use that name are the libertarians who recognise that the Tedros rename to sars2/covid is a Kampfbegriff and refuse to use it out of principle in order to avoid supporting the CCP propaganda efforts. They are politically diametrically opposed to right-wingers and do not deny the existence of virus/disease.
Not surprising. I have type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin dependent).
I added a drop of coke/sugar to my blood drop as a way to get out of school, as the blood sugar result would appear very high!
If I wanted it to appear low, I diluted my blood with an alcohol swab (used when testing your blood) or with a drop of water.
I added a drop of coke/sugar to my blood drop as a way to get out of school, as the blood sugar result would appear very high!
If I wanted it to appear low, I diluted my blood with an alcohol swab (used when testing your blood) or with a drop of water.
< Pedanti-sense tingling >
They are not spoofing the test -- the test is real. They are spoofing the positive result.
</ Pedanti-sense tingling >
[deleted]
Children should be able to learn remotely at will if for nothing more than safety and teaching them not to put up with arbitrary BS.
Do you have children ? When there is no teacher ( or the teacher is online) the parent becomes the teacher. Learning from home - at least in Germany - is a mess.
And I thought I was clever by editing the PDF results from someone else's test
How does it work?
Can be easily detected by licking the test hole to check if it tastes like coke / juice.
Public officials can easily do this in order to bust the kids.
Public officials can easily do this in order to bust the kids.
> Can be easily detected by licking the test hole
Can't tell if you're serious or not, about licking a positive-indicating lateral flow test with potentially hot nasal mucus...
Can't tell if you're serious or not, about licking a positive-indicating lateral flow test with potentially hot nasal mucus...
He's definitely joking
I lost it at the quoted text, haven’t laughed this much in days. Classic HN sentence fragment of middlebrow dismissal with just enough obliviousness to social norms that it might be satire, but with such deadpan delivery you just don’t know. Pure gold.
It is obviously a joke ... and that's about as obvious as it gets.
Can't tell if you're serious or not. Decent humor is pretty easy to spot. If something is unclear it's probably not a good joke
No, that's just the US style of humour, where even a laugh-track is recommended to make sure no one misses the joke.
Please let's not cross into nationalistic flamewar. Last thing we need here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Of course not. On HN, joking is a very serious matter.
Putting down other countries' "style of $X" just leads to nasty things.
I'm an American, and he's mostly right, and I'm not offended, because it wasn't nasty and wasn't about me--it was just a harmless, general observation.
What is this world coming to if we can't even discuss regional styles of humor?
Dan, may I suggest that you are taking this job too seriously. You are going to look back in the future and wonder why you spent so much time controlling others' speech on a Web site. You're so concerned about HN's value as a vessel, but so unconcerned with the value of what's inside it. You're a talented Lisper who seems to waste most of his time moderating, playing whack-a-troll and arguing with people about arguing (like me, here). You have more potential than you are fulfilling here, and you could be doing much more important things.
What is this world coming to if we can't even discuss regional styles of humor?
Dan, may I suggest that you are taking this job too seriously. You are going to look back in the future and wonder why you spent so much time controlling others' speech on a Web site. You're so concerned about HN's value as a vessel, but so unconcerned with the value of what's inside it. You're a talented Lisper who seems to waste most of his time moderating, playing whack-a-troll and arguing with people about arguing (like me, here). You have more potential than you are fulfilling here, and you could be doing much more important things.
If someone had said it to me in real life, I would have laughed.
On the internet? Well, those are the people who eat Tide Pods...
Ironically, phrasing was a pure product of pre-coffee morning + living in a part of the US where anti-vax comments are a daily occurrence, but it delights me I was responsible for a few smiles. (Including my own, re-reading it)
And truth be told, "hot" emerged from morning fugue, after rejecting infected, live, and potentially hazardous as less accurate.
Sadly, "tainted" did not occur to me first.
On the internet? Well, those are the people who eat Tide Pods...
Ironically, phrasing was a pure product of pre-coffee morning + living in a part of the US where anti-vax comments are a daily occurrence, but it delights me I was responsible for a few smiles. (Including my own, re-reading it)
And truth be told, "hot" emerged from morning fugue, after rejecting infected, live, and potentially hazardous as less accurate.
Sadly, "tainted" did not occur to me first.
8)
A slightly safer way is to wash them:
"Is there then a way to spot a fake positive test? The antibodies (like most proteins) are capable of refolding and regaining their function when they are returned to more favourable conditions. So I tried washing a test that had been dripped with cola with buffer solution, and sure enough the immobilised antibodies at the T-line regained normal function and released the gold particles, revealing the true negative result on the test."
A slightly safer way is to wash them:
"Is there then a way to spot a fake positive test? The antibodies (like most proteins) are capable of refolding and regaining their function when they are returned to more favourable conditions. So I tried washing a test that had been dripped with cola with buffer solution, and sure enough the immobilised antibodies at the T-line regained normal function and released the gold particles, revealing the true negative result on the test."
Wondering if there's a way to monetize this technique.
Thanks for the laugh!!
tester34(10)
hatware(1)
Can official PCR test be somehow spoofed so I get Covid pass for the next 6 months?
I hope you're making a bad joke. Go get the vaccines to get the proof of vaccination cards.
The vaccine doesn't get you out of the tests everywhere yet. There are still places that require tests regardless of whether you've been vaccinated.
So suck it up I was tested regularly in hospital and then weekly at home for 3 months.
That has nothing to do with the comment I responded to. Move along if you're just here to post useless responses.
Those also don't care if you've had it before either
I thought the same, some juice up the nose, here I go...