Red delicious apples weren’t always horrible(newengland.com)
newengland.com
Red delicious apples weren’t always horrible
https://newengland.com/today/food/red-delicious-apple/
256 comments
Nearly nobody under the age of 35 is aware that popcorn used to taste like corn. Not like modern ears of corn, which are bred mostly for sweetness; more like tortilla chips, whose corn is still (somehow) cultivated for corn flavor. Corny.
[edit] … also I’m baffled by how, every time I “hold the tomatoes” on my burger or salad, someone will invariably say “don’t you like tomatoes?” and I have to go on this dumb rant about how the flavor has been bred out.
Like, all these people have had marinara sauce and even ketchup, which are made from varieties of tomatoes that are still cultivated for flavor (and thus unsuitable for long-distance shipping). They know what tomatoes actually taste like!! yet still eat these slices of pink tomato that somehow have less flavor than American cucumbers and think “this is the same thing”
[edit] … also I’m baffled by how, every time I “hold the tomatoes” on my burger or salad, someone will invariably say “don’t you like tomatoes?” and I have to go on this dumb rant about how the flavor has been bred out.
Like, all these people have had marinara sauce and even ketchup, which are made from varieties of tomatoes that are still cultivated for flavor (and thus unsuitable for long-distance shipping). They know what tomatoes actually taste like!! yet still eat these slices of pink tomato that somehow have less flavor than American cucumbers and think “this is the same thing”
you would probably love the dorito effect https://www.amazon.com/Dorito-Effect-Surprising-Truth-Flavor...
Its a book about the incentives and technologies that came together to result in the deflavorization of food and the rise of the "flavoring" industry as a whole.
Of the interesting things in there is one guy using a mass spectrometer to identify flavor compounds at scale to engineer a tomato that is hardy and ships well without sacrificing flavor.
Its a book about the incentives and technologies that came together to result in the deflavorization of food and the rise of the "flavoring" industry as a whole.
Of the interesting things in there is one guy using a mass spectrometer to identify flavor compounds at scale to engineer a tomato that is hardy and ships well without sacrificing flavor.
I have a feeling that “love” might not be the right word, but adding it to the queue ;)
Do you happen to know what this variety is called?
I wish! in the book, the guy has created it and was giving samples to farmers. However, despite the vastly superior flavor, it wasn't quite as productive as the flavorless ones yet.
Not quite as productive for a farmer can be plenty productive for private use - he should release it!
I thought I was the weirdo for thinking tomatoes on burgers didn't add any flavor. I love flavorful tomatoes everywhere else, generally, but the kind used on burgers are like mushy water.
They want the burgers to taste the same all over the place. A shame because here in south western Ontario we have amazing tomatoes. I eat at least one a day just sliced with a bit of salt.
I'm not convinced this is the case: Why would you choose lesser tomatoes for this?
I'm more inclined to think that modern "grocery store" tomatoes are generally tomatoes that ship well while still fresh. Anything else means that tomatoes on burgers would not only be seasonal, but regulated to the sorts of places tomatoes can be shipped well from the farms.
I'm not even sure how you eat a good one daily, honestly. I've always lived in places with winter, and the tomatoes tend to lose any worth (cherry tomatoes might save you though). I used to grow or buy decent ones during the summer, but moved further north and that went away.
I'm more inclined to think that modern "grocery store" tomatoes are generally tomatoes that ship well while still fresh. Anything else means that tomatoes on burgers would not only be seasonal, but regulated to the sorts of places tomatoes can be shipped well from the farms.
I'm not even sure how you eat a good one daily, honestly. I've always lived in places with winter, and the tomatoes tend to lose any worth (cherry tomatoes might save you though). I used to grow or buy decent ones during the summer, but moved further north and that went away.
> ship well while still fresh
I think a lot of supermarket fruit and veg is picked underripe, and then ripening is induced in a controlled environment in some warehouse a few hours before it's sent to the shops, so that it's "perfectly" ripe as it's placed on display for sale.
I think a lot of supermarket fruit and veg is picked underripe, and then ripening is induced in a controlled environment in some warehouse a few hours before it's sent to the shops, so that it's "perfectly" ripe as it's placed on display for sale.
You're not alone. I've never liked tomato slice on burgers, always ask to remove if present. Makes the burger wet and slushy for no benefit. Partial to a slice of beetroot as a substitute.
(Hopefully you didn't establish this throwaway account to confess your controversial tomato opinions.)
(Hopefully you didn't establish this throwaway account to confess your controversial tomato opinions.)
> (Hopefully you didn't establish this throwaway account to confess your controversial tomato opinions.)
Their HN account is better curated than most tomato cultivars.
Their HN account is better curated than most tomato cultivars.
Try again sometime on a homemade burger with a homegrown or farmers market heirloom tomato! Divine.
Sweet corn was cultivated at least hundreds of years ago by native americans, it was never allowed to mature and be used as a grain, it makes up a minuscule fraction of corn production. Tortillas are made from varieties of corn that do fully mature “field corn”, essentially the same as the rest of corn production although there are more restrictions and preferences on which specific seed lines get into human food production.
Yah, I know the basic elementary school version of the history of corn, just trying to explain that “tastes like corn” doesn’t mean a backyard corn-on-the-cob. My impression of the latter is that they basically taste like sugar now but I guess my memory of childhood cobs is less vivid.
A sandwich place near me does BLTs, but ONLY in the summertime when the tomatoes are worthy. I love it.
i too stopped ordering tomatos for this reason
some people mentioned looking for places that advertise using heirloom tomatos, but you still have to give them a good pinch of salt
would love to join a startup that re-engineers flavor back into commercially-viable crops
some people mentioned looking for places that advertise using heirloom tomatos, but you still have to give them a good pinch of salt
would love to join a startup that re-engineers flavor back into commercially-viable crops
I've actually thought about this before. AFAICT, it's mostly a supply chain issue.
In order to ship fruit long distance, they're harvested before they're ready, and artificially ripened in frozen containers. This lets them survive long journeys but kills a lot of the taste.
So your company would end up being a traceability and logistics one - what's the nearest place to your customers that grow fruit, how can you prove it, and how can you get it in their hands.
(Last two contracts were in artificial fruit ripening and supply chain traceability respectively).
In order to ship fruit long distance, they're harvested before they're ready, and artificially ripened in frozen containers. This lets them survive long journeys but kills a lot of the taste.
So your company would end up being a traceability and logistics one - what's the nearest place to your customers that grow fruit, how can you prove it, and how can you get it in their hands.
(Last two contracts were in artificial fruit ripening and supply chain traceability respectively).
I lived in a city and had a roofdeck with full sun all day. Tomatos grew amazingly well up there, and the flavor of those ripe tomatoes was so amazing that we had them with nearly every meal. It also made buying tomatos from the grocery store totally impossible.
I've noticed that full sun makes a surprisingly big difference, even with the naturally good tasting heirloom varieties (Cherokee purple, Brandywine, etc.).
I wonder what the science there is. You'd think the slower ripening in partial shade (often a week or more slower) would result in a more complex tasting tomato, but perhaps the flavor compounds never reach a critical mass.
I wonder what the science there is. You'd think the slower ripening in partial shade (often a week or more slower) would result in a more complex tasting tomato, but perhaps the flavor compounds never reach a critical mass.
Just move to Europe.
Just always get beefsteak tomatoes for burgers
Sorry to tell you tomatoes are flavourless in Europe as well.
I lived almost 7 years in Germany, and the average tomato at a supermarket was lightyears beyond the US. Then farmers markets are even better.
Funny enough, the further east you go, the better they taste.
But tbf, only for a few months when the many small farmers grow them outdoors and sell them for unbelievably cheap.
Rest of the time it's greenhouse tomatoes like everyone else.
But tbf, only for a few months when the many small farmers grow them outdoors and sell them for unbelievably cheap.
Rest of the time it's greenhouse tomatoes like everyone else.
I lived almost 7 years in the USA, and the average tomato at a supermarket was lightyears beyond Germany. Then farmers markets are even better.
I am willing to participate in a blind taste test to resolve this issue.
Yep. You have to grow own tomatoes to have good ones. Which is something only few people are willing and have option to do.
Except the available seeds are probably decreasing in quality as well.
No, there are places dedicated to preserving and making available heirloom seeds.
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange: https://www.southernexposure.com/
Seed Savers Exchange https://www.seedsavers.org/
Open Source Seed Initiative partners with multiple seed exchanges: https://osseeds.org/
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange: https://www.southernexposure.com/
Seed Savers Exchange https://www.seedsavers.org/
Open Source Seed Initiative partners with multiple seed exchanges: https://osseeds.org/
Is there a market for good tasting tomato seeds? :D
It's actually fascinating - I remember my grandmother scooping out the seeds out of vegetables and drying them, to be used next year.
The villagers also traded them as apparently they had different varieties.
It's actually fascinating - I remember my grandmother scooping out the seeds out of vegetables and drying them, to be used next year.
The villagers also traded them as apparently they had different varieties.
I always thought tomatoes were pretty good and then I had tomatoes in Europe.
I guess that means you had them in a Mediterranean country, because elsewhere in Europe they still are rather bland in my (northern European) opinion
Yes this is the key. Most of Europe is in the same boat. Eating produce in Greece however is astoundingly better. Italy was less consistent on this but still better.
Which leads me to wonder if its really the genetic choices or is it just something about the farming, nutritional rich soils, or transportation/timing?
Which leads me to wonder if its really the genetic choices or is it just something about the farming, nutritional rich soils, or transportation/timing?
> Which leads me to wonder if its really the genetic choices or is it just something about the farming, nutritional rich soils, or transportation/timing?
- the soil plays no great role in taste but is of course the farmer most precious resource. - the plant genetics is preponderant in taste. - the consumers and farmer genetics and culture are loosely related to the plant genetics. - the missing pieces, distribution and seed providers, are the most important pieces, deciding on prices, margins and on the characteristics necessary of the products to improve those.
Local products are always best. But I can’t grow exotic fruits in Paris.
- the soil plays no great role in taste but is of course the farmer most precious resource. - the plant genetics is preponderant in taste. - the consumers and farmer genetics and culture are loosely related to the plant genetics. - the missing pieces, distribution and seed providers, are the most important pieces, deciding on prices, margins and on the characteristics necessary of the products to improve those.
Local products are always best. But I can’t grow exotic fruits in Paris.
France is good for tomatoes too. I think it's definitely partly about local availability. But probably also a bit to do with cultural consumer choices too. France/Italy/Greece all have big food cultures in a way that isn't quite matched by northern European countries.
That said, it seems to be getting easier to get high quality vegetables (including tomatoes) here in the UK. It's not from a supermarket and you pay more, but it is available (maybe still not quite as good as other countries, but certainly much improved on the flavourless stuff).
That said, it seems to be getting easier to get high quality vegetables (including tomatoes) here in the UK. It's not from a supermarket and you pay more, but it is available (maybe still not quite as good as other countries, but certainly much improved on the flavourless stuff).
France has great tomatoes, but a random tomato you buy on sale at the huge supermarkets aren't any better than anywhere else (in my experience).
In France, standard supermarket tomatoes are standard bad - but we see increasing availability of different species obviously taking genes from heirloom varieties... They taste great and consumers are beginning to understand that weird shapes and colours mean flavour.
Sunshine is the other big variable. Most fruit will only get sweet during ripening if it's receiving enough sunlight. This is why red grapes are seldom grown in northern latitudes - their dark skin blocks sunlight and prevents them from sweetening during ripening.
Is it really about sunlight and not heat though?
Otherwise one would expect to see more sweet fruit coming from northern europe than is the case. Given the near absence of "night."
[deleted]
Forget about local markets. Most of the tomatoes eaten in Central Europe came from the 'sea of plastic' in the Mediterranean Spain and Morocco. Cultured from dutch seeds selected to grow really fast. Is a combination of long travel, green picked and so-so cultivars breed for market.
It's also seasonal, and depending on the provenance (local/imported).
I live in Hungary and tomatoes are crap for 10 months a year, when they're generally imported from abroad and are obviously picked up unripe.
Then during the summer you can buy tasteful tomatoes for a while, sourced locally.
In Italy they're better on average, but you can also find tasteless dutch ones in supermarkets (again, picked up unripe).
I live in Hungary and tomatoes are crap for 10 months a year, when they're generally imported from abroad and are obviously picked up unripe.
Then during the summer you can buy tasteful tomatoes for a while, sourced locally.
In Italy they're better on average, but you can also find tasteless dutch ones in supermarkets (again, picked up unripe).
Yeah, in Italy you have to buy the local varieties. Non-PDO/PGI (protected designation of origin/protected geographical indication) cherry tomatoes are going to be tasteless (and cheaper).
You can get good ones in supermarkets in the UK, you just have to spend more and know what you’re looking for.
Recently I tried Bull’s Heart, which were stupid expensive but delicious. But you can get San Marzano in a bunch of places, and various other plum and cherry varieties with good flavours.
It’s just the average “salad tomato” that tastes like crunchy water.
Recently I tried Bull’s Heart, which were stupid expensive but delicious. But you can get San Marzano in a bunch of places, and various other plum and cherry varieties with good flavours.
It’s just the average “salad tomato” that tastes like crunchy water.
Where the 'European' ones better or worse?
As a norther European, I've always found the tomatoes in the US far better than what I normally get.
As a norther European, I've always found the tomatoes in the US far better than what I normally get.
Anyone can grow a pot of heirloom tomatoes outside in the summertime and end up with tomatoes that blow everything at the supermarket out of the water, if you can manage the pests. You can get pretty great produce at certain farmers markets, too.
After shelling out ~$50-$100 for intitial setup, you too can harvest $5 worth of tomatoes! And as you say, if you can keep the pests free, but that also requires for money to add to that inital purchase.
The insect/worms/catepillars in my area are more vicious than rodent invasions. If you get catepillars, they can wipe out an entire plant in a day.
The insect/worms/catepillars in my area are more vicious than rodent invasions. If you get catepillars, they can wipe out an entire plant in a day.
$50-100 is way overestimated. You can grow tomatoes in inexpensive pots. Seedlings are inexpensive.
Maybe $15 total, plus water, time, and patience. The latter two of those can be expensive, but difficult to quantify.
Maybe $15 total, plus water, time, and patience. The latter two of those can be expensive, but difficult to quantify.
Tomatoes get big. They need a decent sized pot. I would recommend a 12" pot, defintely no smaller than 10".[0] Dirt aint cheap. "Cheap as dirt" wasn't formed from shopping at garden centers with bagged dirt, and you don't need a truck load for container gardening.[1] Tomoatoes need up right supports like cages, etc.[2] Seedlings are cheap individually, but each one needs a container.[3]
[0] $10 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pennington-12-in-Terra-Cotta-Cla...
[1] $5 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Miracle-Gro-Moisture-Control-8-q...
[2] $5 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glamos-Wire-Products-54-in-Plant...
[3] $4 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bonnie-Plants-19-3-oz-Early-Girl...
That's one plant, and we're at $25.
[0] $10 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pennington-12-in-Terra-Cotta-Cla...
[1] $5 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Miracle-Gro-Moisture-Control-8-q...
[2] $5 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glamos-Wire-Products-54-in-Plant...
[3] $4 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bonnie-Plants-19-3-oz-Early-Girl...
That's one plant, and we're at $25.
Well you're right that it doesn't scale down to single pots.
When I grew tomatoes in containers, I went for the 5-gal buckets from Lowes ($4), and bought soil in larger bags. Also your cage is more expensive than I recall paying.
On the plus side, most of those are one-time startup costs.
Our tomatoes are self-seeding at this point. We literally do nothing except pick them, and put away several dozen jars of sauce every year, from a couple neglected garden beds. It sounds like we have less trouble with pests here than you do though.
When I grew tomatoes in containers, I went for the 5-gal buckets from Lowes ($4), and bought soil in larger bags. Also your cage is more expensive than I recall paying.
On the plus side, most of those are one-time startup costs.
Our tomatoes are self-seeding at this point. We literally do nothing except pick them, and put away several dozen jars of sauce every year, from a couple neglected garden beds. It sounds like we have less trouble with pests here than you do though.
My original post said ~$50-$100 in initial setup, so you're not being fair to my original post. You need multiples of the things or similarly functioning things as posted. Yes, buying bigger bags of dirt is an option, or cheap plastic pots. If you're going to be doing this, you'll appreciate the clay pots as they don't bet brittle from UV exposure. I prefer clay as I just dislike plastic.
It's a typical reaction when suggestions that gardening can be more expensive than people realize. Yes, if you use the same pots, start taking seeds generationally, etc the price amortizes to near $0. That first year though can put a dent in a wallet. If you've been doing it for awhile, it's easy to forget.
We haven't even discussed getting into drip irrigation or similar. Each of the individual parts are cheap (tubing, sprayers/drippers, etc), but again it adds up with a timer etc.
To be abundantly clear, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, but just giving realistic expectations. It's just like getting into Arduino and what not. The controller itself is cheap. The shields are cheap. Electronic components are cheap. Then you add up all your receipts and realize, you've spent more money than originally anticipated. It's just the nature of DIY.
It's a typical reaction when suggestions that gardening can be more expensive than people realize. Yes, if you use the same pots, start taking seeds generationally, etc the price amortizes to near $0. That first year though can put a dent in a wallet. If you've been doing it for awhile, it's easy to forget.
We haven't even discussed getting into drip irrigation or similar. Each of the individual parts are cheap (tubing, sprayers/drippers, etc), but again it adds up with a timer etc.
To be abundantly clear, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, but just giving realistic expectations. It's just like getting into Arduino and what not. The controller itself is cheap. The shields are cheap. Electronic components are cheap. Then you add up all your receipts and realize, you've spent more money than originally anticipated. It's just the nature of DIY.
Well to be fair to my unfairness to your original post, you'll also get a lot more than $5 of produce out of a single pot.
So, per pot, you'll spend $20 in the first year by my (updated) math, then $5-10 each successive year -- and you'll get about $15 of produce each season. Sometimes much more than $15. Cherry/grape tomatoes are expensive, and the plants are more fruitful than the larger varieties.
Drip irrigation is out of scope. A minute or two, per container, per day, with a hose (or watering can) while you check for hornworms is the operational expectation.
Anyway I don't disagree with your larger point. Little things definitely add up. I've been to IKEA!
I also dislike plastic, but I liked the form factor of the bucket (straight vertical sides) to pack multiples into a small space. I still have the buckets 15 years later, and I use them for all sorts of misc jobs around the garden.
So, per pot, you'll spend $20 in the first year by my (updated) math, then $5-10 each successive year -- and you'll get about $15 of produce each season. Sometimes much more than $15. Cherry/grape tomatoes are expensive, and the plants are more fruitful than the larger varieties.
Drip irrigation is out of scope. A minute or two, per container, per day, with a hose (or watering can) while you check for hornworms is the operational expectation.
Anyway I don't disagree with your larger point. Little things definitely add up. I've been to IKEA!
I also dislike plastic, but I liked the form factor of the bucket (straight vertical sides) to pack multiples into a small space. I still have the buckets 15 years later, and I use them for all sorts of misc jobs around the garden.
There do exist these things called "dwarf tomatoes". Also, a large pot and a few good cherry tomato seeds can blow away everything in a supermarket with little flavor bombs.
I have determinate dwarf tomato plants (3 feet tall max), which I grew from seed ($2.99), planted in old milk crates (free) lined with plastic from old bags (free) and filled from one huge bag of potting mix (~$20-30), and this gives me half a dozen plants that are superior to anything in a supermarket. I staked them with tree branches trimmed from my trees (free).
I have grown them in the actual ground many years, eliminating the cost of the potting mix, but after a few years, you need to let the soil lie fallow to avoid blights, so this year it's the milk crate planters.
I have determinate dwarf tomato plants (3 feet tall max), which I grew from seed ($2.99), planted in old milk crates (free) lined with plastic from old bags (free) and filled from one huge bag of potting mix (~$20-30), and this gives me half a dozen plants that are superior to anything in a supermarket. I staked them with tree branches trimmed from my trees (free).
I have grown them in the actual ground many years, eliminating the cost of the potting mix, but after a few years, you need to let the soil lie fallow to avoid blights, so this year it's the milk crate planters.
You can reuse most of those things for years, you can also use common household items to improvise replacements for cages and such. We bought little plants this year for 3 bucks each, we had no expenses otherwise.
Need to add a fence to your list or a large enough garden to withstand losses.
This was our first garden year. Very small plot, around 6'x6'. Deer knocked over our two tomato plants and ate every tomato off. Huge green tomatoes.
This was our first garden year. Very small plot, around 6'x6'. Deer knocked over our two tomato plants and ate every tomato off. Huge green tomatoes.
True. If it's not the deer (rural, suburban), it's the rats (urban).
Container gardening on a (south-facing) high rise balcony works pretty well, though.
Container gardening on a (south-facing) high rise balcony works pretty well, though.
I just tossed some seeds in the dirt on the side, and now I have a giant tomato plant like 3' high.. pretty cheap unless you're in an apartment I guess.
It has to be less, surely. I remember growing tomatoes in the garden as a nine year old pretty much from seeds and just in the soil.
Perhaps a regional thing.
Perhaps a regional thing.
> you too can harvest $5 worth of tomatoes
Your attitude is the problem - DONT equate $5 of supermarket tomatoes with an equivalent weight of home grown tomatoes.
I go out of my way to buy “expensive” tomatoes, because I don’t think of good tomatoes as being cheap produce, but more like an expensive vegetable (although price is still seasonal).
Your attitude is the problem - DONT equate $5 of supermarket tomatoes with an equivalent weight of home grown tomatoes.
I go out of my way to buy “expensive” tomatoes, because I don’t think of good tomatoes as being cheap produce, but more like an expensive vegetable (although price is still seasonal).
My attitude? I love gardening and growing my own vegetables. It is a simple truth, and the numbers don't lie. It gives me pleasure and enjoyment to do it. So the "entertainment" factor alone is worth it.
At the end of the day for new people trying gardening, it can be a bit disappointning. To make it all 100% magical panacea without actual realization of monetary factors, you're not being honest with potential new growers.
At the end of the day for new people trying gardening, it can be a bit disappointning. To make it all 100% magical panacea without actual realization of monetary factors, you're not being honest with potential new growers.
San marzanos are pretty good … oops I shouldn’t have said that … now the words out and the geneticists are working hard to screw them up too
San Marzanos are origin-protected in Italy, so if you get Italian San Marzano's they're legally limited in ways that promote quality.
Unfortunately, there is a large black market in mis-labeled San Marzanos, so it's not a full guarantee of quality. But it's something that they're at least working on, rather than just giving up.
Unfortunately, there is a large black market in mis-labeled San Marzanos, so it's not a full guarantee of quality. But it's something that they're at least working on, rather than just giving up.
>> San Marzanos are origin-protected in Italy
What does that mean? Protected under what laws?
What does that mean? Protected under what laws?
It's like trademark but instead of:
"only this company can decide who can use the trademark"
It's like:
"only if it's production fulfills certain criteria can you use the name"
It's made as a consumer protection so that people can not just claim their product is this kind of "traditional" product when it isn't. Except that it's less used like a consumer protection as it's mainly used like a trademark. Controlled by a small group of people and directly profiting some regional government/economy.
Most commonly it requires the main ingredient to come from a specific region (also e.g. used for Wine or Sect).
EDIT: I kinda did throw different regulations into one explanation here.
"only this company can decide who can use the trademark"
It's like:
"only if it's production fulfills certain criteria can you use the name"
It's made as a consumer protection so that people can not just claim their product is this kind of "traditional" product when it isn't. Except that it's less used like a consumer protection as it's mainly used like a trademark. Controlled by a small group of people and directly profiting some regional government/economy.
Most commonly it requires the main ingredient to come from a specific region (also e.g. used for Wine or Sect).
EDIT: I kinda did throw different regulations into one explanation here.
It's a shame that Cheddar doesn't have good protection.
Real cheddar is full of flavour, slightly sour. Great stuff.
But you can go to places like the US and cheddar is not cheddar and they should not be allowed to call that cheddar.
Real cheddar is full of flavour, slightly sour. Great stuff.
But you can go to places like the US and cheddar is not cheddar and they should not be allowed to call that cheddar.
Cheddar in most places outside the UK is "not cheddar". If I go to the supermarket here in Sweden and buy the first "cheddar" I see prominently displayed, I'm not getting cheddar from the UK.
I agree, it's Red Leicester at best.
Completely lacking in any depth or complexity of flavour.
To be clear, you can get 'real' Cheddar as well if you go to the 'fancy' cheese section of a 'fancy' supermarket and pay 3 times as much.
“Farmhouse cheddar” I believe is the protected term for cheese from Cheddar or nearby.
Interesting, I was not aware of this.
you can get good cheddar in the US. Here is a widely available brand which is much better than average US cheddar https://www.tillamook.com/products/cheese/sharp-white-chedda... aged cheddar is nom nom nom
I will have to try it next time over there, but please don't be offended when I say that based upon all the cheeses I have eaten over there I won't be holding my breath.
"West Country Cheddar" is protected. I doubt you can get that in the US very easily though.
Probably because they won't understand what "West Country" means?
You know how "champagne" is technically only champagne if the grapes are from the Champagne region of France, and otherwise it's just sparkling wine? That's a legal designation in the EU.
You know how "champagne" is technically only champagne if the grapes are from the Champagne region of France
Unless you live in Russia :)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57733684
Unless you live in Russia :)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57733684
Bourbon, too.
Protected under what laws?
Protected under EU law. Only tomatoes of a specific type AND from the specific region can use the name "San Marzanos".
Outside the EU I don't think there is anything stopping yoou from labling any random tomato as "San Marzano".
Protected under EU law. Only tomatoes of a specific type AND from the specific region can use the name "San Marzanos".
Outside the EU I don't think there is anything stopping yoou from labling any random tomato as "San Marzano".
I may be wrong but I believe the canada-eu and eu-japan treaties also protect most denominations of origin (or rather, most by value rather than by specific items, but San Marzano should be included).
It's a regulation [0] that says that products that are associated with a specific geographic location cannot be manufactured elsewhere and then passed off as the original.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origi...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origi...
The EU is the main place that has these laws sorts of laws. I beleive that they will include it in trade deals so that it is enforceable in more of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
There are some counterfeit San Marzano out there too. Out on the west coast, I've been pretty happy with Muir Glen tomatoes.
Not to say you shouldn’t like Muir Glen, but this seems like the most appropriate place in this thread to drop this link: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/best-canned-tomatoes...
Always interested in trying new options, thanks.
> I have to go on this dumb rant about how the flavor has been bred out.
Why not just say "no, I don't like tomatoes" and save the effort? Nobody has to justify why they like or dislike the things that they do.
Why not just say "no, I don't like tomatoes" and save the effort? Nobody has to justify why they like or dislike the things that they do.
Not just flavor. Also nutrition. You can’t make something good from just water and cotton balls.
Although we’re very good at that here in NL
Although we’re very good at that here in NL
This is also why many AKC pure bred dogs have serious health problems. Turns of you select only on a simple metric like hair color, ear shape, of slope of the back, that you end up selecting for things that go against the very heart of what the breed was. So you lose characteristics that led to the breed in the first place.
With tomatoes, I thought it was more that most are not ripened on the vine, they are picked green so they ship better, then ripened artificially with ethelene gas. They turn red, but don't develop the same flavor or texture as a real ripe tomato.
Same with strawberries.
Same with strawberries.
Somehow I don't seem to have the same experience as most people in this thread. Sure, homegrown tomatoes and cucumbers taste quite a bit better than what I usually buy at the supermarket, but it certainly isn't perfect vs. inedible.
Possible explanations I can think of:
1. My taste perception is just broken because I am relatively young and have been raised on low-quality produce.
2. My local supermarkets just happen to stock excellent vegetables (I live in Central Europe).
3. There are some extremely high-quality breeds of tomatoes/cucumbers that I have never eaten before.
4. Other people are simply more enthusiastic about vegetable quality and therefore their claims seem exaggerated to me.
Possible explanations I can think of:
1. My taste perception is just broken because I am relatively young and have been raised on low-quality produce.
2. My local supermarkets just happen to stock excellent vegetables (I live in Central Europe).
3. There are some extremely high-quality breeds of tomatoes/cucumbers that I have never eaten before.
4. Other people are simply more enthusiastic about vegetable quality and therefore their claims seem exaggerated to me.
I think there are two things involved.
First is that some produce really is terrible -- "regular" cheap tomatoes can be utterly flavorless. But on the other hand, a lot of supermarkets stock tomatoes that range from fine to quite excellent, e.g. cherry tomatoes grown in greenhouses sold on the vine.
And second is that people really do exaggerate how great homegrown tomatoes are. There are tomato snobs in the same way there are coffee snobs, whiskey snobs, chocolate snobs, whatever. They insist something is 100x better, when really it's just 1.5x better, because for some reason that's important to them, part of their identity.
Yes, a farmer's-market heirloom tomato is utterly delicious. But store-bought cherry tomatoes on the vine are also super super tasty. Even the ones not on the vine can be really really good. (You can also find really bad ones though, it depends on the store.) I'd go so far as to say they're just different, neither obviously better than the other.
First is that some produce really is terrible -- "regular" cheap tomatoes can be utterly flavorless. But on the other hand, a lot of supermarkets stock tomatoes that range from fine to quite excellent, e.g. cherry tomatoes grown in greenhouses sold on the vine.
And second is that people really do exaggerate how great homegrown tomatoes are. There are tomato snobs in the same way there are coffee snobs, whiskey snobs, chocolate snobs, whatever. They insist something is 100x better, when really it's just 1.5x better, because for some reason that's important to them, part of their identity.
Yes, a farmer's-market heirloom tomato is utterly delicious. But store-bought cherry tomatoes on the vine are also super super tasty. Even the ones not on the vine can be really really good. (You can also find really bad ones though, it depends on the store.) I'd go so far as to say they're just different, neither obviously better than the other.
It’s pretty much this skit https://youtu.be/4ZK8Z8hulFg
Where in Central Europe are you? And are you buying the cheapest tomatoes available?
The answer to these can vary results a lot.
The answer to these can vary results a lot.
Stores sell heirloom tomatoes too... sometime at twice the price though...
What's a good cucumber alternative and how do I get a hold of it?
https://www.rareseeds.com/store/vegetables/cucumbers Bakers Creek only sells heirloom seeds (no cultivars). I get most of my garden seeds from them as they have the lineage of the seeds they sell available.
Heirloom varieties (more properly “open pollinated”) are themselves cultivars, which just means something that was selected/bred/domesticated.
I think you’re trying to get at “hybrids” (which just means the breeding isn’t stable, i.e., the next generation isn’t first red to match the parents, but even hybrids can be quite tasty.
The issue isn’t the breeding process per se; the issue is selectively breeding for the wrong things (or a single thing instead of a mix of things).
I think you’re trying to get at “hybrids” (which just means the breeding isn’t stable, i.e., the next generation isn’t first red to match the parents, but even hybrids can be quite tasty.
The issue isn’t the breeding process per se; the issue is selectively breeding for the wrong things (or a single thing instead of a mix of things).
These seeds are amazing. The Beit Alpha cucumbers are fantastic and the Purple Bumble Bee cherry tomatoes are some of the greatest I’ve ever eaten.
Ideally get "Japanese cucumbers" from a Japanese grocery store, or get the "Persian cucumbers" from any grocery store that has decent typography in its logo (yes there is a HUGE correlation between logo typography and cucumber quality in my experience).
Look for regional producers or farmers markets. I’m lucky to live in upstate NY with ready access to farm stands about 30 minutes away.
Usually smaller producers make different choices in terms of variety.
Usually smaller producers make different choices in terms of variety.
The US Northeast has so many apples that don’t travel well and have so much flavor: Spenser, Macoun, Empire... on the West Coast they’re all lacrosse balls that taste OK to decent but mainly travel well.
Everyone complains about the northeast re: weather, etc. But there’s a ton of stuff like this that many of us who live here take for granted!
I miss that aspect of New England. Agriculture there is much more local. Apple picking in the fall was a delight.
It’s not just flavor that has been bred out. Also nutrition, and not just from tomatoes. Consumers can not visually see flavor or nutrition. They can see color, size, and uniformity of surface texture and shape. So the vegetables are bred for what can be seen and immediately considered in a buying decision.
Some of it is just size, as in the larger sized produce might have a similar amount of nutrition per unit (per tomato or per berry) but not per pound, so the nutrition is diluted with fiber and water but still there.
Though there are also a whole lot of edible plants out there that don’t hold up at all to distribution, if you aren’t picking it by hand and eating it the same day it will be ruined.
Though there are also a whole lot of edible plants out there that don’t hold up at all to distribution, if you aren’t picking it by hand and eating it the same day it will be ruined.
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As a kid, I was a fan of Golden Delicious, while others criticised it for being too mealy. That wasn't my experience, at least at first. Eventually I encountered increasingly mealy Golden "Delicious", and started favouring other apples. Even the cheapest apples here, like Elstar and Jonagold, are pretty good in comparison.
I wonder if it's the fate of any breed to eventually be bred for looks instead of taste. If you see two apples (or any other fruit or vegetable) of the same name, aren't you more likely to pick the tastier looking one? You can't taste them in the shop, but you can compare by looks. So eventually, that's what they end up being bred for.
I'd expect the only way to protect an apple from that fate, would be to trademark the name, and the rightsholder only licenses the name to apples from cultivars that breed for taste and don't sacrifice taste for looks.
This might be a case where IP rights might be used for good.
I wonder if it's the fate of any breed to eventually be bred for looks instead of taste. If you see two apples (or any other fruit or vegetable) of the same name, aren't you more likely to pick the tastier looking one? You can't taste them in the shop, but you can compare by looks. So eventually, that's what they end up being bred for.
I'd expect the only way to protect an apple from that fate, would be to trademark the name, and the rightsholder only licenses the name to apples from cultivars that breed for taste and don't sacrifice taste for looks.
This might be a case where IP rights might be used for good.
This is interesting, because I think apple picking orchards and farmers markets have an advantage here over supermarkets and delivery services. For public orchards, the apples are bred for taste first and foremost. Everyone goes in expecting to see dusty apples, with many worms too, but its fine since that's how it is out in the countryside. Everyone is also eating apples constantly while out picking, even if encouraged not to its an open secret, since after you've tasted the honey you are going to end up with two huge bags of your favorite varieties at the end of the day. Farmers markets also do a lot of free samples, even in this pandemic. You can typically ask at a farmers market for a vendor to slice you a sample as well if you are curious, most of the time they just do it for you unprompted as you are browsing. People become regulars at farmers markets if the vendor has very high quality items. They are looking for freaky mutant looking heirloom stuff in a farmers market, not a perfect plastic looking apple for a good price.
Regarding pick your own orchards, I don't know where you are but here in central MA most of the pick you own business is from tourists. Us locals just buy apples already picked at the farm store for less money. The farmers make the tourists buy the empty bags, not the apples, so they've already paid before they even pick a single apple. Neither taste nor looks really have anything to do with it. It's more about which farm puts on the best 'show'. Some of the farms are also very nasty about eating apples while out picking and will kick the tourists out if they catch them.
I found that over the years, the primary problem with Golden Delicious in my area is that in the stores, they are always still partially green. They pick them too soon, ship them green, and they never fully ripen properly.
Sometimes you can go by smell! Produce that smells good also often tastes good.
I also have some luck going by looks, but by specifically looking for exemplars that have flawed looks (in ways that I know don't negatively affect flavour). For types of produce where you can sort of tell which ones are good, other people tend to go for the ones that look good but also don't have blemishes. That selection process results in the good ones being statistically overrepresented among the ones with flawed looks.
I also have some luck going by looks, but by specifically looking for exemplars that have flawed looks (in ways that I know don't negatively affect flavour). For types of produce where you can sort of tell which ones are good, other people tend to go for the ones that look good but also don't have blemishes. That selection process results in the good ones being statistically overrepresented among the ones with flawed looks.
I've had similar experience with Golden Delicious -- I stopped buying it years ago. But last year, I went to a pick-your-own place where I discovered extremely crisp, juicy, and flavorful Golden Delicious apples! Picked a couple of bagfuls.
So I'm happy to report that they still exist. The trick is getting hold of them...
So I'm happy to report that they still exist. The trick is getting hold of them...
> You can't taste them in the shop, but you can compare by looks.
Actually, you can ask to sample apples. I make pies, and sometimes stores carry unfamiliar varieties, so I do occasionally ask. The kids often don't know that this is okay, so it helps to ask for the Produce manager. They'll grab a knife and cut a slice. Otoh grocery stores rarely carry ugly apples; they go to farm markets, where it's way more normal to ask for a sample
Actually, you can ask to sample apples. I make pies, and sometimes stores carry unfamiliar varieties, so I do occasionally ask. The kids often don't know that this is okay, so it helps to ask for the Produce manager. They'll grab a knife and cut a slice. Otoh grocery stores rarely carry ugly apples; they go to farm markets, where it's way more normal to ask for a sample
> I wonder if it's the fate of any breed to eventually be bred for looks instead of taste.
No, fruit trees are predominantly propagated by cloning, by grafting branches into a root stock. This method has been used already in prehistoric times.
New varieties are created by producing seeds, but then they are no longer called the same "breed". There is a big element of luck involved due to cross pollination and only specialized growers practice it.
The issue you mention is common in plants propagated through seeds, such as tomatoes and carrots. Modern tomato varieties are red, big, robust in transport... and tasteless.
No, fruit trees are predominantly propagated by cloning, by grafting branches into a root stock. This method has been used already in prehistoric times.
New varieties are created by producing seeds, but then they are no longer called the same "breed". There is a big element of luck involved due to cross pollination and only specialized growers practice it.
The issue you mention is common in plants propagated through seeds, such as tomatoes and carrots. Modern tomato varieties are red, big, robust in transport... and tasteless.
Yet the article talks about breeding Red Delicious for looks and transportability. If it was only cloning, Red Delicious would still taste the same way it did way back then.
There’s an interesting planet money podcast about the thousands of trees grown to find the honey crisp apple.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/27/410085320/epis...
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/27/410085320/epis...
Individual branches have mutations, and those are cloned for new trees. Which is what the article is about. It doesn't take seeds to have this behavior.
I may be misinterpreting, but I think the comment you replied to implies natural(artificial?)-selection at the supermarket-selection level; not actual breeding of the trees.
> the only way to protect an apple from that fate, would be to trademark the name, and the rightsholder only licenses the name to apples from cultivars that breed for taste and don't sacrifice taste for looks
You may want to look at the European D.O.C./A.O.C./E.T.C. system. Some specify production methods. Others set testable thresholds for the final product. Either ruleset could be incorporated into a licensing scheme.
You may want to look at the European D.O.C./A.O.C./E.T.C. system. Some specify production methods. Others set testable thresholds for the final product. Either ruleset could be incorporated into a licensing scheme.
The floury or mealy texture can happen regardless of variety, most of the apples you buy for the supermarket are up to a year old. they gas them with a chemical that stops ripening then keep them in a very low oxygen environment (usually on farm). it tends to cause the not nice floury texture.
Golden delicious is a fine apple that is just out of fashion for its well known sins.
As all in its group, post-mature is mealy and bland, and before maturation is too acid, but freshly picked in the right month is a refreshing mix of acid/sweet in the right amounts. Really fine apple when in season.
But is really annoying to culture. Many of the best tasting apples are prone to fungus diseases that destroy its market value. GD is a sucker for skin diseases and the newer cultivars are better performers, so is in decline.
Apples in the kitchen burn its sugars to keep the fruit 'breathing' and the metabolism of the seeds working. The more time you have it, the more insipid.
As all in its group, post-mature is mealy and bland, and before maturation is too acid, but freshly picked in the right month is a refreshing mix of acid/sweet in the right amounts. Really fine apple when in season.
But is really annoying to culture. Many of the best tasting apples are prone to fungus diseases that destroy its market value. GD is a sucker for skin diseases and the newer cultivars are better performers, so is in decline.
Apples in the kitchen burn its sugars to keep the fruit 'breathing' and the metabolism of the seeds working. The more time you have it, the more insipid.
The writer, on the other hand is not understanding the legacy impact that golden and red delicious have. Many of the best sold apples in the market like Fuji, Pink Lady or Rubinette descend directly from red and golden delicious
> "aren't you more likely to pick the tastier looking one?"
I have always looked for the more multi colored ones, skipping the all red because they had a history of tasting less delicious.
I have always looked for the more multi colored ones, skipping the all red because they had a history of tasting less delicious.
>I'd expect the only way to protect an apple from that fate, would be to trademark the name, and the rightsholder only licenses the name to apples from cultivars that breed for taste and don't sacrifice taste for looks.
>This might be a case where IP rights might be used for good.
Arent they doing that with the cosmic crisp?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
>This might be a case where IP rights might be used for good.
Arent they doing that with the cosmic crisp?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
the problem with golden delicious is that you need to eat them within 3 days of when they are picked. a good golden should have a thin skin, be sweet, and crisp.
i think part of the problem is that farmers pick them to early so your usually getting an green golden that has rotted a bit to turn yellow.
i think part of the problem is that farmers pick them to early so your usually getting an green golden that has rotted a bit to turn yellow.
i believe its not looks specifically, but longevity from orchard to supermarket to table that wins. this goes for almost all food. what matters is it lasts through the delivery system.
strawberries are like the blandest thing when they are out of season.
strawberries are like the blandest thing when they are out of season.
Or just let people taste them in the shop. For example, as free samples.
I think it's quite interesting that it's taken so long for a lackluster tasting food to decline in popularity.
When I moved to the US from Western Europe, the relative difference in food quality was quite apparent and I distinctly remember noticing this first with the apples:
At first I thought I might have chosen a bad batch, but after a couple of more buys I realised that these apples looked 'perfect' but always tasted foamy. I assumed what the article confirms: the apples were chosen for their looks and not their taste.
What I think is weird about that mentality is that surely after the initial buy "oh these look declicious!", the consumer will try them and think "oh these don't taste good. I won't buy them again". Maybe it's just habit and it's taken a while for people to change that habit, especially if you never try anything different to compare it with.
I know a lot of Americans that do not like apples because all they've ever had were the foamy ones.
When I moved to the US from Western Europe, the relative difference in food quality was quite apparent and I distinctly remember noticing this first with the apples:
At first I thought I might have chosen a bad batch, but after a couple of more buys I realised that these apples looked 'perfect' but always tasted foamy. I assumed what the article confirms: the apples were chosen for their looks and not their taste.
What I think is weird about that mentality is that surely after the initial buy "oh these look declicious!", the consumer will try them and think "oh these don't taste good. I won't buy them again". Maybe it's just habit and it's taken a while for people to change that habit, especially if you never try anything different to compare it with.
I know a lot of Americans that do not like apples because all they've ever had were the foamy ones.
I read an article about the creator of the Honey Crisp and Cosmic Crisp. He chose a different licensing model that gives him more control for the Cosmic Crisp because according to him farmers tended to prefer the better looking, red apples which over time negatively impact what trees they'd use and how apples tasted even within the same variety. I'm not sure I understand the argument on a biological level fully, since I thought all apple trees of the same variety are clones, but I trust the leading expert got it right.
If this is true we have some kind of tragedy of the commons within the growers of a specific variety. If the variety is still popular and known for good taste and your apples look the best, you win. Consumers won't pay enough attention to recognize that a given variety from a particular grower now tastes less good.
If this is true we have some kind of tragedy of the commons within the growers of a specific variety. If the variety is still popular and known for good taste and your apples look the best, you win. Consumers won't pay enough attention to recognize that a given variety from a particular grower now tastes less good.
Honey Crisp are my favourite when they don't taste like dirt.
A few hours ago, in a German supermarket I saw Honey Crisp from Chile. Have been tempted, but resisted. Honey Crisps from France are more acceptable IMO. Strangely I haven't seen the 'Cosmics' so far, though I always look for them everywhere.
The cosmic is a nice apple. However, I find the Envy apple to be a better combination of crispiness and flavor. I find the Cosmic Crisp to be crispy, but fairly one dimensional in flavor compared to Envy. Another great apple to try is Opal. Less crispy, but interesting flavor profile that almost has a hint of banana.
Its not just the perfect look that Red Delicious was bred for but shelf life. Those things take forever to rot compared to other apples and hide bruising, but they end up with dry mealy texture and very thick waxy skin. They were optimized for apple sellers not apple eaters.
I think they're bred mostly to sit in a bowl in someone's kitchen. The fact that they taste terrible is a bonus because you don't want kids eating your table centerpiece.
What's ironic about that is that when I bought my first such apple, I thought it must have been old as it was so mealy.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense though. I equally remember having a loaf of square bread that comes in plastic (called 'toast bread' in a lot of Europe) lying around for over a month and I could not spot any mould and it was also still soft. It did not taste like 'real' bread even when fresh of course...
What you're saying makes a lot of sense though. I equally remember having a loaf of square bread that comes in plastic (called 'toast bread' in a lot of Europe) lying around for over a month and I could not spot any mould and it was also still soft. It did not taste like 'real' bread even when fresh of course...
US agriculture is seasonal and overproduces, a lot of the excess is stored for months in cold houses and sold over the course of the year. Your apple you just bought could very well be nearly a year old. This is why I've been moving to farmers markets. That's where the flavor is.
Those are probably treated for remain 'indefinitely fresh'. Is a little dirt secret from apple markets. Is not genetics, is vegetable hormones sprayed on the skin. Just avoid them.
> They were optimized for apple sellers not apple eaters.
The American food industry is optimised for sellers, not eaters [1].
It is that way because the scalar nature of capital in America favours national businesses, not local businesses (or nutritional well being).
Consumers fit in with this model out of necessity because they are workers who cannot allocate enough time to food shopping, preparation, and cooking. Instead, they minimise the time spent on food procurement by going to the supermarket, which is the ultimate expression of scalar capitalism.
[1] Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us ISBN1400069807 (ISBN13: 9781400069804), Michael Moss, Random House, 2013
The American food industry is optimised for sellers, not eaters [1].
It is that way because the scalar nature of capital in America favours national businesses, not local businesses (or nutritional well being).
Consumers fit in with this model out of necessity because they are workers who cannot allocate enough time to food shopping, preparation, and cooking. Instead, they minimise the time spent on food procurement by going to the supermarket, which is the ultimate expression of scalar capitalism.
[1] Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us ISBN1400069807 (ISBN13: 9781400069804), Michael Moss, Random House, 2013
oh absolutely and it is all most economically optimal and rational thing to do for everyone involved. It is just soulless and dismal. each step of the way is rational in isolation, its when it all together that it becomes an awful abomination .
>I know a lot of Americans that do not like apples because all they've ever had were the foamy ones.
We have started getting apples in the UK (Tesco) that are often "foamy", almost powdery in their consistency. I assumed that it was some growing method that produces it as the same variety sold under the same label will sometimes have it and sometime not. I wondered if they're really old apples that the appearance of has been preserved; like we get softer potatoes that are actually last seasons and often have green patches where roots have been cut off. We changed to buying from Lidl and their fruit doesn't seem to have the same issue, so far, YMMV. The kids will squeeze the apples to make sure they're the nice ones, and one claims he can smell the good ones; visually they're identical (to me).
We have started getting apples in the UK (Tesco) that are often "foamy", almost powdery in their consistency. I assumed that it was some growing method that produces it as the same variety sold under the same label will sometimes have it and sometime not. I wondered if they're really old apples that the appearance of has been preserved; like we get softer potatoes that are actually last seasons and often have green patches where roots have been cut off. We changed to buying from Lidl and their fruit doesn't seem to have the same issue, so far, YMMV. The kids will squeeze the apples to make sure they're the nice ones, and one claims he can smell the good ones; visually they're identical (to me).
Apples, like Tomato are textbook examples of what mechanised volume production and warehousing does to "tasty". You can either have cheap food, or you can have good food, but good cheap food (where good means nutritious, delicious) is a lot harder and Cheap generally beats out good anyway, for most people.
Remember in context, we probably waste over 30% of the produce along the supply chain, seeking absolutely "perfect" blemish free apples in a tray, wrapped in plastic, cheaper than before.
Down here in Oz people have moved on from "organic is better for you" (debatable) to "I like it better" which being couched in the preference space, is less contestable. I do like things which taste bettter, and I am prepared to pay the premium to get them.
I would be interested if the same process which took red delicious to stable, thick skinned, resilient also reduced nutritive value, we read increasingly that abundant food production often includes reducing actual food value (vitamins, minerals, antioxidents, flavones), in favour of mass production but I don't know how true it is.
Remember in context, we probably waste over 30% of the produce along the supply chain, seeking absolutely "perfect" blemish free apples in a tray, wrapped in plastic, cheaper than before.
Down here in Oz people have moved on from "organic is better for you" (debatable) to "I like it better" which being couched in the preference space, is less contestable. I do like things which taste bettter, and I am prepared to pay the premium to get them.
I would be interested if the same process which took red delicious to stable, thick skinned, resilient also reduced nutritive value, we read increasingly that abundant food production often includes reducing actual food value (vitamins, minerals, antioxidents, flavones), in favour of mass production but I don't know how true it is.
I don’t think this is correct. We can have good food, and cheaper food than we have now without changing anything. At least as far as vegetables are concerned.
The problem here is that groceries are tailoring their product not for the eater of the food, but for the buyer of the food. That results in a lot of vegetables/fruits being thrown away even after they’ve been selectively bred to look good vs tasting good.
If the consumer was better educated and did not turn down food that did not look different, there would be a lot less wastage and the food would not need to be selectively bred to look good, but rather to taste good. Which means the food would taste better and less wastage would mean it’s cheaper.
The problem here is that groceries are tailoring their product not for the eater of the food, but for the buyer of the food. That results in a lot of vegetables/fruits being thrown away even after they’ve been selectively bred to look good vs tasting good.
If the consumer was better educated and did not turn down food that did not look different, there would be a lot less wastage and the food would not need to be selectively bred to look good, but rather to taste good. Which means the food would taste better and less wastage would mean it’s cheaper.
Storage shelf life is also an important artificial selection pressure.
The best vegetables are ones that are fresh out of the garden and ripened appropriately.
That scenario really isn't compatible with the types of places tomatoes find themselves to be for sell at. Which is to say probably in a city very far from where they were grown.
The best vegetables are ones that are fresh out of the garden and ripened appropriately.
That scenario really isn't compatible with the types of places tomatoes find themselves to be for sell at. Which is to say probably in a city very far from where they were grown.
The interesting thing is that tomatoes first declined with mechanization and breeding for longevity and rose again. Once the mechanization process was done, they could be bred for taste again.
Note: link about effort to revive tomato taste. That they succeeded is my personal judgement - ie, I think tomatoes taste good again.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/geneticists-qu...
Note: link about effort to revive tomato taste. That they succeeded is my personal judgement - ie, I think tomatoes taste good again.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/geneticists-qu...
Another counter-example to my argument would be farm-frozen peas. They're unquestionably better in every sense, than canned peas, or dried peas, or peas which were not snap frozen at picking time. So not all food is worse for being industrialised. And as you point out now food handling methods have improved and food storage at scale through warehousing and distribution, there's every chance of quality coming back in as a price differentiator.
Interestingly I used to believe this, to the extent that I snubbed my nose at fresh peas in pods being sold in various countries I have lived in. I can't remember why, but I bought some last summer, and it was one of those moments when I realised how wrong I'd been. Frozen peas are a pale imitation of fresh peas. There is more variance - sometimes you'll get a pod with quite mealy peas, especially later in the season, but they're otherwise so good it makes up for it.
> Remember in context, we probably waste over 30% of the produce along the supply chain, seeking absolutely "perfect" blemish free apples in a tray, wrapped in plastic, cheaper than before.
over the last fifty years (or more?) grocery stores have evolved to have onsite bakeries/etc that take food that looks unappealing or would otherwise spoil soon and make them into prepared foods. Ready to eat meals, prepped ingredients, etc.
Though it's probably only down to 30% after efforts like these, though.
over the last fifty years (or more?) grocery stores have evolved to have onsite bakeries/etc that take food that looks unappealing or would otherwise spoil soon and make them into prepared foods. Ready to eat meals, prepped ingredients, etc.
Though it's probably only down to 30% after efforts like these, though.
Really? I had always assumed that unsold food gets thrown away (or maybe at a best case donated), and supply chains for bakeries etc are 100% separate by design.
The local supermarket sells whole roasted chickens that you can buy hot and ready to eat. The ones that don't sell are deboned and shredded and used for chicken salad, barbeque "pulled" chicken, etc.
And these roasted chickens were previously on the shelves as raw whole chicken that was pulled and cooked when they hit their “sell by” date.
No. Maybe at Whole Foods? But at Publix/Kroger the chickens were in a separate fridge that customers never got to buy from or access and the chickens went straight from the truck into that fridge.
I say this as someone who worked Deli at Publix/Kroger and made those rotisserie chickens.
The unused chickens would get used for chicken salads and stuff like that, but we also threw alot of them away too. Everything the deli used at Publix was used just for the deli, at no point did we take stuff about to expire and use it for our stuff except for bread that had only a couple of days left from the bakery. We had our fridge and supply section and the grocery had their own section and the two rarely met.
I say this as someone who worked Deli at Publix/Kroger and made those rotisserie chickens.
The unused chickens would get used for chicken salads and stuff like that, but we also threw alot of them away too. Everything the deli used at Publix was used just for the deli, at no point did we take stuff about to expire and use it for our stuff except for bread that had only a couple of days left from the bakery. We had our fridge and supply section and the grocery had their own section and the two rarely met.
Try finding chickens that small in the aisles.
Depends on the grocery chain, but many places use separate stock for them.
Depends on the grocery chain, but many places use separate stock for them.
You probably don't even know what real vegetables taste like. As a Canadian born and raised who moved to Ukraine a few years ago, one of the most surprising things I encountered was how tasty a simple salad can be. Then I found out that mineral levels in vegetables in North America are estimated to have dropped 90% since 1914 [1]. Ukrainians who migrate to other countries are often heard to complain about a loss in food taste - and I know exactly what they're talking about because I'm a foreigner who noticed the difference in food taste right away.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20965771
My old comment on the matter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20969214
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20965771
My old comment on the matter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20969214
There are Apple orchards that were abandoned in Washington State that my dad use to to take us to. These orchards had only red delicious and they were the best apples I’ve had. There are a lot of abandoned orchards around Washington and old species keep getting found.
I hated apples all thought my childhood, but once I had my own kids I started buying more interesting variety's (even just from the supermarket) and I'm really hooked. Love em.
It might also help that I have tried to cut down on sugar and apples are now one of the sweetest things I eat.
I also discovered that cutting apples into bite size chunks for kids makes them taste better!
It might also help that I have tried to cut down on sugar and apples are now one of the sweetest things I eat.
I also discovered that cutting apples into bite size chunks for kids makes them taste better!
If you haven't already, get one of those apple (and pear) slicers. I don't usually advocate for single purpose kitchen appliances, but these are life changing.
Where in WA?
The ones I went to were near Okanogan Valley; though some could have been in Canada as well.
Please support your local orchards if possible!
The apples you find in stores don’t even compare to some of the unique cultivars you can find at many orchards
The apples you find in stores don’t even compare to some of the unique cultivars you can find at many orchards
A big part of this is that a lot of varieties don't travel well.
But commercial apples like ambrosia and honeycrisp do and are pretty tasty. Ubiquity of red delicious is sort of baffling.
There's also a huge chunk of the country where apples don't grow well due to lack of sufficient freeze.
But commercial apples like ambrosia and honeycrisp do and are pretty tasty. Ubiquity of red delicious is sort of baffling.
There's also a huge chunk of the country where apples don't grow well due to lack of sufficient freeze.
Visiting orchards in Autumn was a fun annual tradition when I lived in the Northern US. The whole fam would enjoy those days together picking apples. No orchards nearby this part of Texas, though.
I live very close to where the Honeycrisp was developed, and sadly I don't frequent them or the other local orchards as much as I should.
Does this apply only to the US-grown apples, or is this a global problem?
> When you picture an apple, you probably picture a Red Delicious
Actually, I picture a Granny Smith. ;)
> When you picture an apple, you probably picture a Red Delicious
Actually, I picture a Granny Smith. ;)
Applies in Ireland; we don’t have the red delicious, but we do have the “golden delicious” (if consumer protection law had any teeth, these would be called “yellowish horrible” instead) and Gala and other Bad Apples.
I think it may apply less in continental Europe.
I think it may apply less in continental Europe.
By virtue of preferring green apples, I've only had a local Red Delicious a few times in the past, but I don't recall having had any problem with the taste - except for, well, being too sweet for me.
I guess I'll have to buy some the next time I see them to see what the fuss is about (and if there is any fuss to be had in the first place).
I guess I'll have to buy some the next time I see them to see what the fuss is about (and if there is any fuss to be had in the first place).
Reinette were always my favorite apples, sort of popular in Poland but nor very 'presentable' [1]. Still, the best imho
[1] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reneta#/media/Plik:Egremont_Ru...
[1] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reneta#/media/Plik:Egremont_Ru...
Sounds (and looks) like the Goudreinet, the classic apple for Dutch apple pie.
Since apples are propagated by grafting (cloning), has anyone kept original ("heirloom"?) Red Delicious stock from before it was optimized for looks? I'd be very curious to try one!
I lived in Iowa for a time not too far from where they were originally from, and the red delicious apples there in local orchards on old trees are probably pretty close to what they were originally like. They're smaller than the prototypical ones you find in the grocery, with a thinner skin, more mottled or striped and round in appearance, and have flavor sort of like mcintosh.
If you know what they are, you'll probably be able to identify the red delicious flavor, mostly in the skin I think. However, my guess is if you gave one to a bunch of people they probably wouldn't recognize them as red delicious apples. They might identify them as mcintosh or something like that.
If you know what they are, you'll probably be able to identify the red delicious flavor, mostly in the skin I think. However, my guess is if you gave one to a bunch of people they probably wouldn't recognize them as red delicious apples. They might identify them as mcintosh or something like that.
If you go around local orchards, you'll see them from time to time — I've seen them in CT, MD, NY, PA, and VA. If they don't look like supermarket apples, they're worth eating.
I recently watched a youtube video about why avocados cannot be grown by seed and learned about grafting. Interesting stuff. Didn't know apples also were grown through grafting.
There's an interesting discussion in Gun, Germs, and Steel where Jared Diamond claims that wild apples were inedible (IIRC due to cyanide in the seeds) and could only be domesticated after the invention of grafting technology.
also give a read about those green apples. (Granny Smith?). IIRC, all of these are grafts from one single tree. cmiw pls .
I live in the "Apple Capital of the World", had to learn about apples my whole life. I'm not sure its a fair to make blanket statements about red delicious apples as many are not cloned/grafted, so the taste varies from producer to producer. The big name varieties of apples now are all copyright/trademark and grown via grafting, making output control much easier. Many of the older red del orchards are old and no longer profitable due to modern day orchard planting and management being much more advanced. As those orchards get replaced they get replanted or grafts from a currently more profitable variety are put into them. A reasonable amount of new varieties are growing on stumps/roots that once produced red delicious fruits.
Rave and Ambrosia are the two variants Stemilt is pushing hard these days.
the average now is around 12 years before they switch the varieties and put new grafts on a stump. seven years to get back to full production size, 5 years of product and then switch. the apple varieties being marketed today have been in the works for near a decade or more.
Rave and Ambrosia are the two variants Stemilt is pushing hard these days.
the average now is around 12 years before they switch the varieties and put new grafts on a stump. seven years to get back to full production size, 5 years of product and then switch. the apple varieties being marketed today have been in the works for near a decade or more.
Growing up in North America by the time I became an adult, I had written off apples in entirety for being dull balls of coagulated sand consistency material. It was lost on me why anyone would ever voluntarily eat one. It didn’t matter whether mass market or where.
Fast forward in life: two years after moving to Switzerland, I found myself hungry and desperate while on the road, expecting the worst. I ate one of the domestic varieties grown in Thurgau (der Apfelkanton or apple mecca). Absolutely blown away by the freshness and flavor profile.
My takeaway is whatever is calling whatever is sold in the US as an Apple is a crime. A similar thing happened to me here with milk (it didn’t have a lingering bleach or watered down aroma) and using buses for transit. I think North America scarred me.
Fast forward in life: two years after moving to Switzerland, I found myself hungry and desperate while on the road, expecting the worst. I ate one of the domestic varieties grown in Thurgau (der Apfelkanton or apple mecca). Absolutely blown away by the freshness and flavor profile.
My takeaway is whatever is calling whatever is sold in the US as an Apple is a crime. A similar thing happened to me here with milk (it didn’t have a lingering bleach or watered down aroma) and using buses for transit. I think North America scarred me.
I was lucky that I could grow up in a family where we produced most of the food we ate[1]. The main thing I learned, is that the interests of food consumers and food producers are, and always will be, misaligned, unless you are the one producing the food you eat.
When I was a kid, I used to despise supermarket food (I later learned to eat it out of necessity, once I moved out of my parent's place).
Now I'm saving up so I can buy a homestead when I retire, and my dream is to produce food for me and my loved ones.
[1] I grew up on a small farm and homestead in Italy, my grandparents and parents had a few money crops (olive oil, wine, eggs) and everything else on the farm was for our own consumption (veggie garden, orchard, meat chickens, pigs, rabbits etc.).
When I was a kid, I used to despise supermarket food (I later learned to eat it out of necessity, once I moved out of my parent's place).
Now I'm saving up so I can buy a homestead when I retire, and my dream is to produce food for me and my loved ones.
[1] I grew up on a small farm and homestead in Italy, my grandparents and parents had a few money crops (olive oil, wine, eggs) and everything else on the farm was for our own consumption (veggie garden, orchard, meat chickens, pigs, rabbits etc.).
I haven't seen red delicious on sale in UK supermarkets for ages. I used to back in my childhood, when you had a variety of loose apples on sale. We bought red delicious and golden delicious because they were cheaper, and we got granny smith apples as a treat. I liked red more than golden for reasons I don't remember but I think red had a stronger crunch and a thicker skin.
I really don't like over-sweet fruit and it feels like a lot of fruits have been engineered for extra sweetness. So these days I try and stick to boring/milder stuff like Braeburn or Gala. Even for other fruits, like strawberries, it's hard to find a punnet that isn't the 'supersweet' variety.
I really don't like over-sweet fruit and it feels like a lot of fruits have been engineered for extra sweetness. So these days I try and stick to boring/milder stuff like Braeburn or Gala. Even for other fruits, like strawberries, it's hard to find a punnet that isn't the 'supersweet' variety.
Good article, but the author’s conclusion is flawed. Pink Lady is the best eating apple ;-)
(Before anyone brings up Honeycrisp - I do think it is the best saucing apple.)
(Before anyone brings up Honeycrisp - I do think it is the best saucing apple.)
The Red Delicious stands out to me as the textbook example of the power of naming and marketing. The origin story is unbeatable. The power of a name on our perceptions is undeniable. Realizing all of this has been one of the most empowering discoveries of my adult life.
True, but it also sucks because so many people say 'i dont like apples', including me until my mid 20s. Red Delicious are awful in every metric. Once a friend opened my eyes to pink ladies and honeycrisps, I was blown away and felt..cheated somehow.
It's crazy. I always subconsciously assumed that Red Delicious apples were how apples have always been (because they taste/look so much less appetizing than the other ones, therefore they must be the most "natural"), and that those other apples were genetically modified. And, being an immigrant, I thought it might even be a cultural difference, and that Americans just prefer the taste of Red Delicious. This is blowing my mind.
> (because they taste/look so much less appetizing than the other ones, therefore they must be the most "natural")
This is just a problem of lack of familiarity with the space. Crab apples are indeed much less palatable than Red Delicious apples.
This is just a problem of lack of familiarity with the space. Crab apples are indeed much less palatable than Red Delicious apples.
Funny story. Johnny Appleseed was famous for planting apple seeds across much of the U.S. But because his apples were grown from seed, they weren't hybrids and were probably all crabapples. And the only use for crabapples was making cider, so he was basically ensuring all these communities would have hard cider available when he came back to visit.
IIRC, most apples aren't genetically modified as we use the term today, just 'hybridized'/crossbred or whatever the word is. I think they're also all sterile.
I've been throwing the cores out into the wild parts of the lawn for 20 years. None have germinated.
birds love apple seeds and pepper seeds, though.
Now think of all the other areas of your life where the same thing has occurred, but you're not aware of it yet.
Have you tried a Cosmic Crisp? A truly superior apple.
Although its ability never to oxidize and turn brown feels downright unnatural. You can leave a cut cosmic crisp on the counter for days and it just stays yellowy white. Weird.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
Although its ability never to oxidize and turn brown feels downright unnatural. You can leave a cut cosmic crisp on the counter for days and it just stays yellowy white. Weird.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Crisp
I have. I don't know why, I just don't like them as much as I thought I would.
However, I find cripp's pink to be wildly variable. Some are beautifully crisp and very tart, these are my favorite. One store by me sells them and they just taste like red delicious, despite having the color and whatnot.
However, I find cripp's pink to be wildly variable. Some are beautifully crisp and very tart, these are my favorite. One store by me sells them and they just taste like red delicious, despite having the color and whatnot.
I think Cosmic Crisp vs Honeycrisp mainly comes down to taste. I vastly prefer Honeycrisp, but I also don't like sour much.
The sourness of Cosmic Crisp is probably why it doesn't oxidize readily.
The sourness of Cosmic Crisp is probably why it doesn't oxidize readily.
I'm not sure I agree with this chart, but I guess everyone is different. To me, a red delicious is not tart at all. It's...tasteless. I also find 'good' cripps/pink ladies far more tart than any apple listed.
I buy honeycrisp only for its texture, so I can't comment on the sweetness ratings as it's not my thing.
I buy honeycrisp only for its texture, so I can't comment on the sweetness ratings as it's not my thing.
This flavor axis omits Red Delicious' biggest weakness: the texture.
> The Red Delicious stands out to me as the textbook example of the power of naming and marketing. The origin story is unbeatable. The power of a name on our perceptions is undeniable.
Eh.... the Red Delicious's twin in naming is the Golden Delicious. Golden is a more prestigious description than red by any standard, and they're both "delicious". If you want to credit naming and marketing with the success of the Red Delicious, you need to explain why the Golden Delicious didn't succeed even more.
Eh.... the Red Delicious's twin in naming is the Golden Delicious. Golden is a more prestigious description than red by any standard, and they're both "delicious". If you want to credit naming and marketing with the success of the Red Delicious, you need to explain why the Golden Delicious didn't succeed even more.
The golden delicious, an awful, irredeemable apple, is very common in the UK and Ireland, much more so that the red delicious.
Good point. I think looks have to follow. Golden Delicious always look...dull. Red Delicious look absolutely stunning. I guess I'd lump that in with 'marketing.'
This is a great account if you’re interested in fruit cultivars: https://mobile.twitter.com/pomological
I'd encourage everyone to check out California Rare Fruit Growers generally, and specifically this list of apples from a tasting a couple years ago:
http://mbcrfg.org/apple-tasting-2019-rankings/
http://mbcrfg.org/apple-tasting-2019-rankings/
Red Delicious was my favorite apple as a kid. Some of this might be questionable taste - my sister's favorite was a Mcintosh - but I wonder if they were better 40 years ago. Had one recently and it was underwhelming. My wife turned me on to Pink Ladies and Fujis and I'll never go back to Delicious.
The article is explicitly stating and explaining why they were indeed better 40 years ago.
That explains why red apples taste horrible but what happened to grapes? I remember when grapes were the dark bluish/blackish concord types and now, the supermarkets mostly carry green and purple grapes which taste awful in comparison.
similar story. good looking + lower costs + seedless = unintentionally optimised towards poor taste :(
I thought it was just me that hated the Red Delicious. The Fujis and Granny Smiths seem to be going downhill fast.
The Galas are ok.
I planted my own apple tree 20 years ago. Some years I get some fruit that the deer missed, and those are awesome.
The Galas are ok.
I planted my own apple tree 20 years ago. Some years I get some fruit that the deer missed, and those are awesome.
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I like Granny Smith sliced with peanut butter. They are also pretty good for cooking.
I agree that supermarket fruits and vegetables often seem to lack in flavor but to my taste, Red Delicious is not worse than any other supermarket apple. All supermarket apples, even the sour ones, pretty much just taste like slightly different variants of sugar water to me - the sourness of the sour apples just rides on top of the sugar water taste without really displacing it. I do not know why Red Delicious specifically has been singled out as the target of multiple critical articles given that one could just as accurately write such articles about all sorts of produce. Do most people really think that other supermarket apples taste any better than Red Delicious?
because it doesn't even have the sugar water taste going for it. it been so over optimzed for appearance shape and shelf life that the texture has become unpleasant, the flavor is non existent, and for years it was "The Apple" you have generations that had one of those awful thing sent in their school lunch every day (and usually threw it away without a single bite), that have grown up had enough of this garbage apple and it is now emblematic of bad flavorless fruit and vegetable in stores.
I can taste the sugar water in Red Delicious and I actually enjoy the texture, but I understand the rest.
I specifically use them only for cooking. The extra sugar in the other apples can caramelize too quickly for many dishes.
Here in Australia the supermarket apples can be excellent. Tasty, crisp, juicy, sweet/tart, consistently reliable, and beautiful to look at.
Do you have Jazz apples? They are the best.
Do you have Jazz apples? They are the best.
I do not think I have ever seen a Jazz apple here in the states, but I would love to try one.
They usually have them near Gala at both my local grocery store and Walmart in the Midwest. They are good, though often a little more bruised than other varieties.
I'm addicted to them. I get them from Trader Joe's here in southern California.
I find that red delicious actually tastes quite good if you manage to eat it before it becomes mealy. Sweet, juicy, crisp bite. The problem is just that they become mealy relatively quickly.
I was a massive fan of red delicious as a kid... I remember I continued buying them up until about 5-6 years ago because I always remembered the incredible taste but it never seemed to match up with my memories. I read a similar article 5-6 years ago and that's when I finally stopped buying. Now I mostly buy Pink Lady or Honeycrisp. Although the new Cosmic Crisp apples are quite great too and they last forever in the fridge.
In a similar vein, I recently learned from Harold McGee's superb new book Nose Dive that modern flowers (the ones you are likely to buy from a flower shop) tend to smell less than their predecessors. This is because plants use the same metabolic pathways to make colors and smells, and if you optimize these pathways for colors, as we nowadays do, the smells suffer.
Envy apples are good.
I do enjoy Envy apples but only if they are fresh. They fade faster than any other Apple I’ve encountered. By that I mean they lose their crispness and become undesirable.
My personal favs are honey crisp and cosmic crisp, but I’d prefer an Envy only if it’s fresh.
My personal favs are honey crisp and cosmic crisp, but I’d prefer an Envy only if it’s fresh.
I prefer pink lady, or opal apple myself. I used to eat a lot of golden delicious but the local stores haven't carried them regularly for several years around here.
I used to love apples. Until I realized that most of the ones I would buy ended up being mealy. It was like rolling dice as to whether one would be mealy.
Maybe it’s because we started buying organic? We got some apples one time that weren’t organic, and they were great.
If organic apples are too susceptible to being mealy, I guess I’d rather just eat other organic fruits vs. eating non-organic apples.
Maybe it’s because we started buying organic? We got some apples one time that weren’t organic, and they were great.
If organic apples are too susceptible to being mealy, I guess I’d rather just eat other organic fruits vs. eating non-organic apples.
A mealy texture usually means that apple is old and was not recently picked. Some varieties, like the red delicious of this article were bred to not get mealy as they age but at a cost. There is nothing specific about organic that would make the apples mealy but if they were varieties not bred for long life or if they were slow sellers due to price, you might get a high percentage of mealy apples.
[deleted]
No Apple compares to the Envy
Massive. Flavorful. Crisp.
Looks like it was made in a GMO factory. Tastes like heaven. Envy über Apples.
Massive. Flavorful. Crisp.
Looks like it was made in a GMO factory. Tastes like heaven. Envy über Apples.
I remember when I first visited the U.S on a press trip back in the 90s thinking how odd it was that all the fresh fruit I offered looked so good and tasted of so little. It wasn't just the red delicious apples, it was things like the strawberries too.
I had a real sweet tooth as a kid and learned early on that a bruised Red Delicious was a sweeter apple, so I would take some apples from my parents' kitchen and bruise them all over and let them rest for a day. The result was not only sweeter, but more flavorful too.
I just got back from Istanbul where the abundance of fresh beautiful produce made me want to slap the local Whole Foods vegetable buyer. I think we may have lost our way on how we buy and sell produce.
This is why a lot of people grow produce at home. Seeds/plants meant for home growing favor tasty over transportability and thus most garden produce is far superior to what the store sells.
Damn breeders.. ruining apples and dogs over time. Always going for some aesthetic ideal over performance.
oh they bred for performance just with different metric than the consumer would prefer. they can sit on a shelf without rotting far longer than say a gala jazz or opal apple, they hide bruising, all great traits if you are a supermarket chain storing hundreds of thousands in a warehouse for months at a time waiting to send them out to stores over the course of a year between harvests.
I recommend the Pippin apple.
I assume this kind of disaster is why Pink Lady is a trademark.
imo the granny smith is the all time worse apple. always taste like a green apple (not trying to be ironic) and usually has a thick skin. just plain terrible might as well pick any apple variety before it is ripe.
if you want a good green apple buy a newtown pippin.
if you want a good green apple buy a newtown pippin.
I like 'em crisp and tart (and cold), so Granny Smith from the refrigerator is my default.
I recall Newtown Pippins being a bit sweeter than I like, but I understand they vary. Is there a time of year, or another way to select for tartness?
I recall Newtown Pippins being a bit sweeter than I like, but I understand they vary. Is there a time of year, or another way to select for tartness?
I use the Granny Smith for cooking but not as an eating apple. They have a good texture and tartness for pies and apple sauce but they are not what i would want to eat raw.
Uh, winesap please...
red delicious are great. for a while I was purposely buying different apples each week and checked my kid's reactions. turns out they like gala and red delicious the most.
I absolutely love apples, and those Red Delicious are quite delicious
No idea what the article is complaining about
No idea what the article is complaining about
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Wonder if it is a regional thing? Maybe there are several varieties of red delicious? But they all get the same name? In the area I live in now they are fairly bland and do not taste very good. But when I was a kid we would goto nebraska city and get a couple of bushels of them and those were very good otherwise we would not have bought that many.
Most likely.
If I go to the local produce market here in central NJ, when it's apple season they sell the local apples (in fact this particular market has it's own apple orchard).
If you hold a Red Delicious from Washington State and one from Jew Jersey, they are obviously different in shape. The Washington apple tends to be the boxy, tapered apple we're familiar with. The NJ Red Delicious is a globe, looking more like a Honeycrisp or Winesap in shape with the coloring of a Red Delicious. The NJ has a sweeter (although not significanty so) taste unlike the bland Washington (and others).
If I go to the local produce market here in central NJ, when it's apple season they sell the local apples (in fact this particular market has it's own apple orchard).
If you hold a Red Delicious from Washington State and one from Jew Jersey, they are obviously different in shape. The Washington apple tends to be the boxy, tapered apple we're familiar with. The NJ Red Delicious is a globe, looking more like a Honeycrisp or Winesap in shape with the coloring of a Red Delicious. The NJ has a sweeter (although not significanty so) taste unlike the bland Washington (and others).
This is also why so many cultivars of tomato and cucumber taste like moist cardboard. Once you taste what they’re actually supposed to taste like, you’ll never be able to go back to a shrink-wrapped English cucumber grown in a hot house.