Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)(cntraveler.com)
cntraveler.com
Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)
https://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2016-04-18/on-greece-mount-athos-no-women-allowed
172 comments
Trivia: We used Julian calendar dating on one of our maintenance systems in the US military. Everyone had to learn this dating, and yes it was quite difficult. I asked and never got a good answer on why it was done this way ("Because it's always been this way.")
It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but someone else may have a better memory and pipe up.
More info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but someone else may have a better memory and pipe up.
More info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
And no entry in the timezone database :-( https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos But then if they have no computers, maybe that doesn't matter.
There's at least one computer on Mt Athos.
I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the snake swims across the lake for a good close up.
You can get lots of great photos that way.
I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the snake swims across the lake for a good close up.
You can get lots of great photos that way.
I know for certain that, from 1997 onward, there was at least one Amiga 2000 on Athos (specifically, in Vatopedi) because it used to be mine.
How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was ever even plugged in, I never found out.
I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for it, though he did know his way around the machine just well enough to run tetris and wordperfect.
How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was ever even plugged in, I never found out.
I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for it, though he did know his way around the machine just well enough to run tetris and wordperfect.
The constant "time zone" changes might throw a wrench into calculating the offsets. How far in advance can we calculate sunrise/sunset times?
Depends on what you mean by sunrise/sunset. “The relative position of the sun’s edge drops below/rises above the tangent of the average surface at sea level” is pretty easy to calculate many years out; the complications are deviations in Earth’s orbit. “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather, good luck.
> “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather
For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is, here's some additional details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
Technically, one might also argue something weird like, "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case a different phenomina would come into play:
https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light
What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even after the sun has technically set, there's still a bit of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due additional factors.
For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is, here's some additional details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
Technically, one might also argue something weird like, "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case a different phenomina would come into play:
https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light
What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even after the sun has technically set, there's still a bit of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due additional factors.
Infinite, there is a mathematical formula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
I am frustrated in the faintness of memory, but I dimly recollect an area which, for about two years, altered time every day so that noon was when the sun was directly over head. Something Royal Time, or something Solar Time.
There are some weird time zones out there.
There are some weird time zones out there.
They have computers. Some monasteries are modernized and they use computers to digitize old documents and books, or for daily works.
>Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind
Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar. Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in the 20th century.
Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar. Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in the 20th century.
Majority of Orthodox Churches didn't switch to Gregorian calendar, some of them did, although some only partially.
This is more or less true in Ethiopia too. The length of the day doesn't vary much there, but by convention the clock is offset by six hours, which makes for great fun when you arrange to meet somebody and have to establish whether or not you mean "Ethiopian time". Noon to us is six o'clock to them.
They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".
They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".
A big part of the orthodox church (mostly on the slavic side) also uses the old calendar. That's why Russians "celebrate Christmas in January".
When they tap the chestnut at 3:30am for prayer, is that a bedtime event (their time) or a daybreak event (standard timekeeping)?
It sounds irrelevant instead, and whoever wrote the article, is obviously being a bit too playful with words.
Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different calendar system altogether — it's fine, you just need to convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using different start points), none of it is particularly notable. Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better aligned with astronomical events.
Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something outrageous either.
Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different conventions which obviously have no practical matter.
Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different calendar system altogether — it's fine, you just need to convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using different start points), none of it is particularly notable. Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better aligned with astronomical events.
Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something outrageous either.
Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different conventions which obviously have no practical matter.
It’s a travel mag, not an investigative report. Playing with words and making bad jokes is like 90% of what they do and that’s just fine.
It's also Ken Jennings, so it checks out with his personality.
As long as you don't take it seriously like the GP did, I agree that's fine.
Unfortunately, people do take it seriously, so it's also fine to point it out for what it is.
Unfortunately, people do take it seriously, so it's also fine to point it out for what it is.
Being better aligned with astronomical events makes it more correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.
I would say that the purpose of the calendar is tracking time/days in general. Astronomical events are just used as a tool to do that. Earlier calendars were lunar-based instead of solar-based, as keeping synchronized with moon is easier.
The solar cycle is extremely important for premodern agricultural societies, since it allows predicting growing and harvesting seasons. If you're going by the Julian calendar and the Autumn equinox is falling on September 10, there's probably going to be confusion as to when the harvest should occur. In the case of the Gregorian Calendar, Catholic countries rely on the Spring Equinox to schedule Easter, and when it started occurring well before March 21, this made it increasingly difficult to synchronize the religious and secular calendars.
While it's somewhat true, most of the people in premodern agricultural societies couldn't read (especially those concerned with when the harvest should happen), and probably couldn't care less about dates in the calendar. Even today, weather and actual crop lifecycle plays a larger role in agriculture than particular dates.
Even if people were tracking dates, adjusting for a couple of days every 200 years wouldn't be that hard: nobody would remember the good old times when we did the harvest on September 22nd in 1234, and now we do them on September 20th in 1434.
Finally, matching up with astronomical events would sometimes put sidereal year (and day) at the forefront: a day that's ~4 minutes shorter than the solar day making the tropical year Gregorian calendar is based on. Things get murky quite quickly once you start going down that path of what "correct" really is.
Note that in the Gregorian calendar, Spring equinox in 2021 and 2022 fell or falls on March 20th. It's only pretty good when averaged out over a 400-year cycle.
Basically, all of these calendar systems are attempts to "square the circle": find something resembling the least common multiple of non-integer values (solar day length and tropical year length), and then try to mix in a bunch of events observed in a different coordinate system (to overly simplify it, all the night stuff is "sidereal").
So we get back to what is really "useful"?
If you don't care about knowing how many days ago, or on what date in the proleptic calendar of your choice something happened in the past just from the date inscribed on it (eg. imagine a letter dated January 5th, 1605), you would certainly be fine with just dropping 10-13 days somewhere along the way. I can, however, understand when someone thinks it's easier to be off from astronomical events for a few weeks to avoid all that administrative trouble, for instance. However, the biggest practical problem today would be that everyone else has written those 10-13 days off, so it's probably easiest to switch too, especially in the global world we've got today.
But there is nothing intrinsically better in the Gregorian calendar that makes it win on all counts. It's just another agreed-upon approximation.
Even if people were tracking dates, adjusting for a couple of days every 200 years wouldn't be that hard: nobody would remember the good old times when we did the harvest on September 22nd in 1234, and now we do them on September 20th in 1434.
Finally, matching up with astronomical events would sometimes put sidereal year (and day) at the forefront: a day that's ~4 minutes shorter than the solar day making the tropical year Gregorian calendar is based on. Things get murky quite quickly once you start going down that path of what "correct" really is.
Note that in the Gregorian calendar, Spring equinox in 2021 and 2022 fell or falls on March 20th. It's only pretty good when averaged out over a 400-year cycle.
Basically, all of these calendar systems are attempts to "square the circle": find something resembling the least common multiple of non-integer values (solar day length and tropical year length), and then try to mix in a bunch of events observed in a different coordinate system (to overly simplify it, all the night stuff is "sidereal").
So we get back to what is really "useful"?
If you don't care about knowing how many days ago, or on what date in the proleptic calendar of your choice something happened in the past just from the date inscribed on it (eg. imagine a letter dated January 5th, 1605), you would certainly be fine with just dropping 10-13 days somewhere along the way. I can, however, understand when someone thinks it's easier to be off from astronomical events for a few weeks to avoid all that administrative trouble, for instance. However, the biggest practical problem today would be that everyone else has written those 10-13 days off, so it's probably easiest to switch too, especially in the global world we've got today.
But there is nothing intrinsically better in the Gregorian calendar that makes it win on all counts. It's just another agreed-upon approximation.
What about the drift in the Gregorian calendar? Solar day and tropical year do not have a least common multiple.
Earth's rotation is — arguably — better measured against the stars, so a sidereal day is more "correct", yet it would not map to our daily routine at all.
So I believe the question is not what is more "correct" (we've long established that we are dealing with approximations at best, Julian calendar included: it already had leap years), but what is more useful? And that's what has driven adoption of the Gregorian calendar in most of the world, but I am fine if somewhere it's more useful not to have to worry about did some days just disappear at some point in the past.
Earth's rotation is — arguably — better measured against the stars, so a sidereal day is more "correct", yet it would not map to our daily routine at all.
So I believe the question is not what is more "correct" (we've long established that we are dealing with approximations at best, Julian calendar included: it already had leap years), but what is more useful? And that's what has driven adoption of the Gregorian calendar in most of the world, but I am fine if somewhere it's more useful not to have to worry about did some days just disappear at some point in the past.
I mean the answer is pretty simple: Neither is perfect, but the Gregorian calendar is objectively more correct. It has a small amount of drift, but the drift is less than the Julian calendar. This also makes it more useful, because it will be able to predict solstices and equinoxes (and other dates needed for scheduling planting and harvesting of crops) more accurately than the Julian calendar. Its overwhelming dominance is evidence that not many people care about the ~2 weeks that disappeared a couple hundred years ago.
You missed my point: where continuous dates are useful, it's ok not to care about two weeks of discrepancy even today. Basically, I am saying is that the biggest advantage of the Gregorian calendar today is its prevalance: all the other things matter less.
You also seem to be overstating the importance of exact dates when it comes to agriculture: my experience is that +-13 days does not make a practical difference, especially if it slowly accumulates (it's not like you would suddenly have to do the harvest 13 days later from one year to the next — you actuslly had to do it 10-13 days "early" once the calendar was switched, and it didn't make a difference even then).
If human civilization continued using the Julian calendar, we wouldn't have been any worse off: nothing points at it that we would have been. I am not saying that Gregorian calendar is "worse" at all (though those born on Feb 29 might beg to disagree when they go 8 years between birthdays 2096-2104 :)), just that where it's better does not matter much.
You also seem to be overstating the importance of exact dates when it comes to agriculture: my experience is that +-13 days does not make a practical difference, especially if it slowly accumulates (it's not like you would suddenly have to do the harvest 13 days later from one year to the next — you actuslly had to do it 10-13 days "early" once the calendar was switched, and it didn't make a difference even then).
If human civilization continued using the Julian calendar, we wouldn't have been any worse off: nothing points at it that we would have been. I am not saying that Gregorian calendar is "worse" at all (though those born on Feb 29 might beg to disagree when they go 8 years between birthdays 2096-2104 :)), just that where it's better does not matter much.
And here we have the root of the disconnect between wall-clock time and stopwatch time.
In short: How long it takes to cook an egg doesn't change because someone inserted a leap second.
Of course, when people try to do the obvious thing, and measure time durations using a wall clock, that's when the fun begins. In that world, "a day from now" is not a consistent number of seconds in the future, due to the aforementioned leap seconds, daylight savings time, and, potentially, time zone shifts if the person doing the measuring is traveling, or is (or, perhaps, was) in a particularly "interesting" jurisdiction.
In short: How long it takes to cook an egg doesn't change because someone inserted a leap second.
Of course, when people try to do the obvious thing, and measure time durations using a wall clock, that's when the fun begins. In that world, "a day from now" is not a consistent number of seconds in the future, due to the aforementioned leap seconds, daylight savings time, and, potentially, time zone shifts if the person doing the measuring is traveling, or is (or, perhaps, was) in a particularly "interesting" jurisdiction.
It's also why Russia's October Revolution of 1917 happened on November 7th. The state officially switched a year later, and November 7th = October 25th in the Old Style calendar. Wonderfully confusing.
While we are at curiosities, I'd like explanation (please without googling) as to why Octoberfest in Munich, Germany always begins in September?
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As someone born and raised in Munich, I'll answer that question without Googling ;)
The Oktoberfest is named for the marriage of Crown Prince Ludwig and Princess Therese in October 1810 and happened in October, until in 1872 it was decided to move the begin a couple weeks earlier, because in Munich the October weather is often very cold and rain-plagued.
The Oktoberfest is named for the marriage of Crown Prince Ludwig and Princess Therese in October 1810 and happened in October, until in 1872 it was decided to move the begin a couple weeks earlier, because in Munich the October weather is often very cold and rain-plagued.
Also without googling - but I've only lived in Munich not born there :)
Historically the event had a focus on horse racing (and did have a race until 1960). I've heard one of the reasons to move it back was also that the meadows were better for racing in when dry and more likely to be so in September.
Historically the event had a focus on horse racing (and did have a race until 1960). I've heard one of the reasons to move it back was also that the meadows were better for racing in when dry and more likely to be so in September.
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I often yearn for the "unearthly quiet" and structure of a monastic life. I am not religious but I just feel as if I don't belong in society: I don't care about work, jobs, careers, riches, fame. I would like a life of study, contemplation and silence.
I think there's a small mismatch of expectations. A monastery is not generally a "life of study". There may be study and prayerful contemplation, but there is definitely labor, physical labor -- generally starting with some measure of agriculture -- as the community supports itself.
It's also still a society, a small one at least, a group life. It is likely to impose on you much more than society in general, though in different ways. If you prefer solitude, you may be looking to become a hermit, rather than a monk.
In a secular context: You might care about work, jobs, careers, and riches, is not for their own sake, but because the riches can support you in a life of study. With a million or two from tech you can buy a small house somewhere quiet and study there all you like.
It's also still a society, a small one at least, a group life. It is likely to impose on you much more than society in general, though in different ways. If you prefer solitude, you may be looking to become a hermit, rather than a monk.
In a secular context: You might care about work, jobs, careers, and riches, is not for their own sake, but because the riches can support you in a life of study. With a million or two from tech you can buy a small house somewhere quiet and study there all you like.
One other thing to note: permission to be a hermit is only granted to monks after many years of being part of the community of monks. To go off alone as a monk is very spiritually perilous for the first few years. It takes a long time to gain the discernment necessary to be a hermit monk, and some monks are never given that permission by their spiritual father.
A Benedictine once put it more or less this way to me: community life causes the monks to round off each other's sharp edges over time. A solitary life is generally not good for people.
Check out "Into Great Silence" for a film about life in the Grand Chartreuse, the motherhouse of the Carthusian order. I recall reading some years ago that it is one of the few (only?) orders in the Catholic Church that has never needed reform. Carthusians only talk to each other once a week I believe -- interesting monastic order.
There is also a relevant classic work on the Jesus Prayer so used by the East: The Way of a Pilgrim. It's about a man who is determined to find out how to pray without ceasing. He becomes a solitary mystic is how I would describe it.
Check out "Into Great Silence" for a film about life in the Grand Chartreuse, the motherhouse of the Carthusian order. I recall reading some years ago that it is one of the few (only?) orders in the Catholic Church that has never needed reform. Carthusians only talk to each other once a week I believe -- interesting monastic order.
There is also a relevant classic work on the Jesus Prayer so used by the East: The Way of a Pilgrim. It's about a man who is determined to find out how to pray without ceasing. He becomes a solitary mystic is how I would describe it.
Do you have more sources about this? I find it quite interesting
Here's a brief article about being a hermit from an Orthodox Christian perspective: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Hermit
The first half of this book is a recollection of life as a monk on Mt Athos (the second half is a collection of the monk's teachings as an elder): Wounded by Love: The Life and Wisdom of Saint Porphyrios.
Another good book is The Gurus, The Young Man, and Elder Paisios by Dionysios Farasiotis. This one has a lot more detail about life on Mt Athos. Also, it's important to note that Elder Paisios has been venerated and is now Saint Paisios.
The first half of this book is a recollection of life as a monk on Mt Athos (the second half is a collection of the monk's teachings as an elder): Wounded by Love: The Life and Wisdom of Saint Porphyrios.
Another good book is The Gurus, The Young Man, and Elder Paisios by Dionysios Farasiotis. This one has a lot more detail about life on Mt Athos. Also, it's important to note that Elder Paisios has been venerated and is now Saint Paisios.
ora et labora
I’ve been twice to Athos, staying at different monasteries each time. It’s unreal because the lifestyle there is very rudimentary. They wake up really early and spend most of the day either praying or working. You’ll hear no cars or any other mechanical sound whatsoever. There’s electricity of course, and you can bring a phone or laptop if you so wish, but most people don’t even bother. Add the fact that the region seems idyllic with monasteries buried deep into forests a few minutes walk from the sea and you can understand why spending a week there is so refreshing. By the way, not everyone visiting Athos is religious, nor is required.
Monastic live is actually pretty varied. There are orders large and small, in cities and in the countryside. It can vary from your traditional idea of a monastery to a shared house where people all work jobs but live a communal life. A good friend of mine was a monk in Atlanta; they have a house in a suburban neighborhood that you would be hard pressed to identify as anything other than a traditional family home from the outside. They had about 8-10 men in their order living under an Abbott, most working professional jobs.
If this is something you are interested in, many of the larger monasteries also function as retreat centers and welcome visitors. There's one about 45 minutes from me [0] that I have visited a few times and stayed for two nights once as part of the marriage preparation courses my wife and I did before getting married. You can have a chance to get a feel for what life is like for the brethren, even for only a few days.
[0] https://www.stbernardabbey.com/
If this is something you are interested in, many of the larger monasteries also function as retreat centers and welcome visitors. There's one about 45 minutes from me [0] that I have visited a few times and stayed for two nights once as part of the marriage preparation courses my wife and I did before getting married. You can have a chance to get a feel for what life is like for the brethren, even for only a few days.
[0] https://www.stbernardabbey.com/
In the book "Wanting", the author has a bit explaining silent retreats, which are basically vacations where no one is allowed to talk and everyone reads. I thought they were an interesting idea to kind of test out monkhood. Similarly, I have always wanted to try John Carmack's idea of taking a computer away to a hotel for a week and working on a project and ordering room service
This is really geeky, but I've taken the short trip cross the sound to Copenhagen at least three times in the last five years to have a weekend with me, myself and my laptop. Smoke weed, eat and drink hotel food and hack away at my hobby project. I've never felt so refreshed and happy than after a weekend like that. Highly recommend it.
> I have always wanted to try John Carmack's idea of taking a computer away to a hotel for a week and working on a project and ordering room service
How much of that desire has survived the lockdowns?
How much of that desire has survived the lockdowns?
My version of the Carmack thing is taking my laptop on boat to Alaska and back for a week. Very limited internet access, relaxing scenery, and no interruptions. These have proven to be extremely productive weeks.
When I read Neal Stephenson's "Anathem", the thing that called out to me the most in that novel was the "mathic" life of the main protagonist and his contemporaries. A life of contemplation, study, and garden husbandry is very appealing.
I am convinced that in pre-secularism days, when "religious" was pretty much the default assumption, there were plenty of monks/nuns who went down that path not because they were particularly devoted but because they failed to fit into any of the conventional roles offered by society but didn't want to become outcasts either. Yes, this might be a misconception (inspired by Eco/Connery?), but it be surprised if there want some truth in it. From that perspective, contemplation and study is more a possible nice side effect than the actual function. With the modern awareness about how unsustainable a norm of spouse-and-three-kids is, perhaps we should consider freeing the monastic lifestyle from religious baggage and think about a mental framework for "orders" for other kinds of lifetime devotions?
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I have always been fascinated with the thought of a post-society world, where technology still lingers but can only be wielded by few, and perhaps truly understood by none. All previous knowledge gone, people would have to tinker, poke and problem solve their way to understanding how these arcane artifacts and mysterious facilities.
I think it interests me because the idea of idle curiosity and discovery in a vacuum seems wholesome and rewarding. No roles to fill, no bills to pay, and all your capabilities are wrought from your own efforts not bestowed upon you by the exchange of money (smartphones, cars, etc).
I have always been fascinated with the thought of a post-society world, where technology still lingers but can only be wielded by few, and perhaps truly understood by none. All previous knowledge gone, people would have to tinker, poke and problem solve their way to understanding how these arcane artifacts and mysterious facilities.
I think it interests me because the idea of idle curiosity and discovery in a vacuum seems wholesome and rewarding. No roles to fill, no bills to pay, and all your capabilities are wrought from your own efforts not bestowed upon you by the exchange of money (smartphones, cars, etc).
Maybe you might want to read this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz
I think this is probably a modern bias since we tend to under appreciate the sincerity of religious beleif that many people had , historically. I'm not saying everyone did, but many did.
I think the rigors of monastic life are also off putting to someone just wanting to hang out.
anway, if there is a formula for secular monasticism I would like to see it. In my view, without the orders and vows there is nothing keeping people from leaving - kinda like how communes sort of evapoeate after a while.
I think the rigors of monastic life are also off putting to someone just wanting to hang out.
anway, if there is a formula for secular monasticism I would like to see it. In my view, without the orders and vows there is nothing keeping people from leaving - kinda like how communes sort of evapoeate after a while.
I wasn't trying to imply that they went monastic despite not believing, but something quite consistent with your first paragraph: today we assume that only people form, I don't know, the top percentile in the metric of belief sincerity could even consider the monastic path, the pieousest of the pieous. But back then religion was so much a basic part of everybody's mental model of the world, that I don't believe that anybody would be considered, even by themselves, as "not monk material" for lack of belief. Practical reasons to stick to a worldly path, sure, or incompatible desires, preferences. Or, most importantly, simply better options. But hardly ever lack of belief. Just like today people don't usually become a physicist because they are more convinced than others that gravity exists.
Back to secular monasticism: the closest we have are militaries (which have been substitute homes and families for a certain kind of person ever since the invention of standing armies) and the prison system. I wonder if UBI, even a UBI of the very low kind, might end up with something like secular monasticism emerging. Communities with absolute minimalism in terms of individual rooms and all remaining resources (rent and chore hours commitment) put in shared amenities. So many ways to make a setup like that a catastrophic failure, but there might be winning patterns
Back to secular monasticism: the closest we have are militaries (which have been substitute homes and families for a certain kind of person ever since the invention of standing armies) and the prison system. I wonder if UBI, even a UBI of the very low kind, might end up with something like secular monasticism emerging. Communities with absolute minimalism in terms of individual rooms and all remaining resources (rent and chore hours commitment) put in shared amenities. So many ways to make a setup like that a catastrophic failure, but there might be winning patterns
I also have a hunch that people on the autism spectrum / Aspergers would end up gravitating towards monastic life in the past.
As far as I know monastic life is not really work-free or worry-free. It's still a society with a lot of baggage. You are even expected to work for free and don't question the authority of the "upper-class".
The only chance to be "free" would be to live in a very remote area, alone. That's a tough life but at least you don't have any answer to anyone.
The only chance to be "free" would be to live in a very remote area, alone. That's a tough life but at least you don't have any answer to anyone.
>"The only chance to be "free" would be to live in a very remote area, alone"
That's the route Daniel Shellabarger [aka Daniel Suelo] took[1]. He quit his job and went to live life as a hermit/hobo in the Am-Southwest. It's not an easy life --most people would not take that deal, but maybe for him it is. It's very ad-hoc and with very little regimen.
[1]https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/homeles...
That's the route Daniel Shellabarger [aka Daniel Suelo] took[1]. He quit his job and went to live life as a hermit/hobo in the Am-Southwest. It's not an easy life --most people would not take that deal, but maybe for him it is. It's very ad-hoc and with very little regimen.
[1]https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/homeles...
Well you do answer to Nature but it isn't a person per se.
I would imagine part of enjoyment of Monastic life is surrendering to those in charge of the Monastery.
Good point about monastic life, it is always idealized but as with most things in the cosmos reality deviates.
I would imagine part of enjoyment of Monastic life is surrendering to those in charge of the Monastery.
Good point about monastic life, it is always idealized but as with most things in the cosmos reality deviates.
I doubt that Nature says that only males are allowed to enter.
Unless you are a hermit and live in solitude (which is not the case on Athos) you still have to answer to the community members and obey the community rules which very are often made to favour specific members of the community.
Unless you are a hermit and live in solitude (which is not the case on Athos) you still have to answer to the community members and obey the community rules which very are often made to favour specific members of the community.
If you don’t care about careers, riches, and fame, and want to engage in a decade or more of quiet contemplation, then join a Ph.D. program. You will be very poor and exist apart from society, where you are neither student nor employee. You can study as much as you want!
Both the PhD experience and the monastic experience have a common root in the 6th century BC Pythagorean communities in southern Italy.
I think a lot about the right to be a monk. It solves a lot of other human rights issues along the way. Monks create their own food, have a place to live and work, and don't cost a lot of money. Let people monk.
Who is stopping them again?
I am an atheist. I still want to monk. I want to monk in my own way, which would probably be growing vegetables, keeping chickens, and making open source software. I don't see how that's possible given the way society is currently organized - it requires periods of time spent to commercial toil, in order to pay landlords, taxes, etc.
In order to monk, you need a sponsor. Religious monks may have a sponsor in their religious organization (although their commercial activities may make them self-sufficient or often self-sufficient). As an atheist monk, you'd need to find someone or group to sponsor you, or do it yourself. If you're raising chickens and growing vegetables, you may qualify your property to be taxed as a farm, which typically is a much reduced rate than a property with just a home. If you monk out in the countryside, the property is likely to be inexpensive to start with.
There's some amount of commercial utility to chickens (and their eggs) and vegetables, so you might be able to make your sponsorship go farther.
There's some amount of commercial utility to chickens (and their eggs) and vegetables, so you might be able to make your sponsorship go farther.
So I'm trying of think of something monastery like, but without the religious aspect, and I'm really drawing a blank. Since you basically surrender your life to the community and ultimately to whoever is leading it, the religious element seems almost necessary to make this work. I think the only exceptions to this are probably something like the military or meditation/yoga practice communities - but they almost inevitably come with religious elements to them(although in some you can be much more lax about actually subscribing to the spiritual elements).
The Glass Bead Game (aka Magister Ludi) by Herman Hesse is more or less about a secular monastery. I highly recommend it.
ModernMech(1)
Oh, ok. Religions seem to get a lot of legacy exceptions in society whether that be something like you described here, certain Native American peoples having freedom to use certain otherwise controlled substances, or like someone else mentioned a waiver for the “no women allowed” thing.
Sounds like you want to join a commune? You could look into that.
I think you're underestimating the extent to which monasteries are commercial, and have been for many many centuries. You don't go there to chill, you go there to work hard and earn money for the monastery. In past times, they were helped along because they were given a monopoly over certain economic activities. Getting a job at a sclerotic state-owned enterprise is probably the closest equivalent today.
The point is not to LARP as a 15th century monk, the point is to live a non-commercial life of quiet, focused service.
I dig it, I just think monk is the wrong model.
Monks work for their living. They make soaps, candles, bread, icons, prayer ropes, translations of holy books, etc. There are cooks, and they rebuild/repair the buildings. Their work is generally more "local", but one of the ways the monasteries survive is by selling their goods to the outer world.
The main reason for being a monk is to crucify one's ego each day in obedience to one's spiritual father and more importantly, to God. "I want to monk my own way" completely undermines the whole way of life of a monk.
The main reason for being a monk is to crucify one's ego each day in obedience to one's spiritual father and more importantly, to God. "I want to monk my own way" completely undermines the whole way of life of a monk.
I relate.
I used to live in a communal religious house. Ananda Marga Yoga Society.
Vegetarian kitchen. Meditation room. Some rules. Chill people.
It was nice.
USA culture seems committed to keeping you busy, anxious and offbalance.
I used to live in a communal religious house. Ananda Marga Yoga Society.
Vegetarian kitchen. Meditation room. Some rules. Chill people.
It was nice.
USA culture seems committed to keeping you busy, anxious and offbalance.
And yet here you are, posting on an internet tech forum :)
I hope this doesn't come off sounding the wrong way, but there is a difference between being religious (doctrine) and belief (faith) in something. I hope you consider what that might mean.
I've been warned by moderators on here for being "too preachy" before, so I will leave it at that, but if you wish to talk more about it in a different venue, let me know. Cheers.
I've been warned by moderators on here for being "too preachy" before, so I will leave it at that, but if you wish to talk more about it in a different venue, let me know. Cheers.
Amen
BTW Greece moving into the EU meant they had to get a special ratified status to keep blocking women access (that would be illegal otherwise)
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15779940...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15779940...
Which I'm not a fan of, but then again I'm not a fan of the church owning an entire peninsula.
The US Constitution begins with “We the People.”
The Greek Constitution begins with “In the name of the Holy and Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity.”
If the EU is going to take counties as they are … this is how Greece is - a state with a very influential established church.
The Greek Constitution begins with “In the name of the Holy and Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity.”
If the EU is going to take counties as they are … this is how Greece is - a state with a very influential established church.
There are many peninsulas owned by rich people. Of course they get to decide who can enter. Are you against that as well?
Oh very much so.
Are you against private property all together?
If not, where do you draw the line? Is a private villa acceptable? A private golf course? A hill? A small island?
Can I decide who enters my 220 square meters apartment?
If not, where do you draw the line? Is a private villa acceptable? A private golf course? A hill? A small island?
Can I decide who enters my 220 square meters apartment?
I'm against the super rich, I think tax brackets on the high end should be much higher.
That’s not the point, you told me that you are not fine with a whole peninsula being owned by the same entity.
My question is: where do you draw the line?
Can someone own a 300 sq meters house? A castle? A golf course? A small island?
My question is: where do you draw the line?
Can someone own a 300 sq meters house? A castle? A golf course? A small island?
300 sqm yes, a castle yes, a golf course yes, a small island no.
I also just don't like the church, so there's double the hate at a super rich church.
I also just don't like the church, so there's double the hate at a super rich church.
Well, I suppose the last sentence kind of betrays your bias.
Well, the company I work for builds the hotel system for two of the biggest monasteries! (It's a super outdated .NET Framework + webforms website for which, over the years, they have requested micro-changes to the fullest extent so it's really made to measure now, I am pretty sure it will never be upgraded)
The two monks I have spoken with are real sweethearts, but they sound really bored and idle to me. They do love speaking with my female coworker though which is, eh, kinda funny. :p
The two monks I have spoken with are real sweethearts, but they sound really bored and idle to me. They do love speaking with my female coworker though which is, eh, kinda funny. :p
So interesting! I have been to the the mountain a few times, and once I get to know the life of a specific monastery better, I’m always surprised that there is quite bit of technology, especially computers. I think many monks have laptops now too. I’m sure some are lurking here on HN.
One of the bad aspects of religions are such restrictions that have no base whatsoever. If we omit this anachronism, Agion Oros, as it's commonly called in Greece, is a nice place to visit (Christian men only) with an unspoiled environment and peaceful way of living. It's common for many Greeks to visit at least once this special place (something like Hajj/Hadji), but in recent times this has been declining. There are 20 monasteries [0], not all of them Greek and it's true that there are many daily things performed different than our ways.
[0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karta_Athos.PNG
[0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karta_Athos.PNG
What are these "restrictions that have no base whatsoever"? Are you referring to "Christian men only"? Surely you can see the basis of a male monastery complex only allowing male Christian guests?
Would you be equally upset at a Buddhist convent only allowing Buddhist women as guests?
Would you be equally upset at a Buddhist convent only allowing Buddhist women as guests?
No, the problem is not with the rules of the monasteries, but with the rules of our religion against women. There are no Greek Orthodox women priests, despite the fact that we have many women Saints! And just to be clear, I’m against all religions that are discriminating people and putting them into groups.
There are no "rules against women". As you note, women can be, and are Saints, which is of course a much greater honour than being a priest. In fact the most highly honoured saint (by a wide margin) is a woman, so clearly the church is not "against women".
Becoming a priest is not something you do for your own good, it's not a privilege, it's a calling. Priests exist for the good of society, not for priests themselves, you are viewing things backwards.
Becoming a priest is not something you do for your own good, it's not a privilege, it's a calling. Priests exist for the good of society, not for priests themselves, you are viewing things backwards.
> have no base whatsoever
Gender segregated monasteries have existed since foreveer. Mt Athos is like one giant monastery in that sense. For religious people there is a base for gender segregation.
Gender segregated monasteries have existed since foreveer. Mt Athos is like one giant monastery in that sense. For religious people there is a base for gender segregation.
No problem with monasteries and gender restrictions of religions, but here we’re talking about a huge area (a peninsula)! We have similar restrictions for women in churches located in cities and these are generally accepted and followed, but only on “holly” grounds and not for large areas like Mt Athos.
There are so many peninsulas owned by rich people, and they get to choose who can enter. I don’t see a big difference here… It’s private, get over it!
bobthechef(2)
The monks have no reason that they forbid women? Just cause? INTERESTING.
If you keep posting flamewar comments we will have to ban this account. We've already had to ask you about this.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Not too different in reason, but until 1868 some female disciples of a particular religion were banned from climbing Mt Fuji passed a certain point: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-religious-cult-belie...
> Not everyone could revel in wonders of Mount Fuji’s lava caves. Until 1868, women were banned from climbing higher than the middle zone of the mountain, ascetics worrying that they would distract men from their religious duties and other traditional taboos.
> Not everyone could revel in wonders of Mount Fuji’s lava caves. Until 1868, women were banned from climbing higher than the middle zone of the mountain, ascetics worrying that they would distract men from their religious duties and other traditional taboos.
I had a two week pilgrimage to Mt Athos on Summer 2019. It was literally a trip to another world. We wondered around the peninsula and visited few monasteries and met wonderful people living there. Happy to see this on HN. If anyone has any questions I'm more than happy to answer those.
Btw, there's a great documentary about Mt. Athos that I think really expresses the ehtos of the place: https://youtu.be/U5pwfLRI-R8
Btw, there's a great documentary about Mt. Athos that I think really expresses the ehtos of the place: https://youtu.be/U5pwfLRI-R8
How feasible would it be to do a pilgrimage there without knowing Greek?
After traveling the world a bunch, I've learned that you can travel almost anywhere in the world and not know the language at all, and still get along fine. If you make a genuine effort to be a kind respectful guest/traveler, people all over the world will go out of their way to help you. All the core needs can be expressed universally by humans. A little money and small gifts of course helps to repay kindnesses.
I was traveling with a guide who knew Greek and had visited Mt. Athos at least tens of times. It was very valuable as he knew monks from different monasteries and arranged visas and accommodations. But during my trip I also met few travellers who had arranged everything themselves and didn't speak any Greek. You can stay at a monastery one night without a charge, meals included but I think it's suggested that you book it in advance because some monasteries have limited capacity for pilgrims.
You can get by with English, but you won't understand the service (which is in the monastery's main language, e.g. Greek/Russian/etc).
Worth to mention that even some native greeks and russians have hard time understanding the services as russian monasteries are using Church Slavonic [1] and greek monasteries very old version of the Greek.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic
I remember an interesting story from history books. During the 14th century plague, Serbian emperor and empress asked for a safe place at Athos peninsula. They were granted access, but the empress needed to be carried away all the time, and carpets needs to be put before her whenever she goes anywhere. It worked out because the rule was not that women are not allowed there, but because "women may not put step on the holy ground of Athos peninsula".
There's a good 60 Minutes segment on this from a few years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mXl8C4-M_4
I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion to be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions. (might be wrong)
I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion to be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions. (might be wrong)
> I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion to be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions.
You need a permit (effectively, a visa) to enter the peninsula, and there is a daily quota. About a tenth of available permits can be issued to non-Orthodox visitors. They don't single out the Greek church from other Orthodox churches (AFAIK).
[I researched the entry requirements a couple of years ago out of curiosity, but never tried to actually visit. Something may have changed in the meantime, but somehow I doubt it :)]
You need a permit (effectively, a visa) to enter the peninsula, and there is a daily quota. About a tenth of available permits can be issued to non-Orthodox visitors. They don't single out the Greek church from other Orthodox churches (AFAIK).
[I researched the entry requirements a couple of years ago out of curiosity, but never tried to actually visit. Something may have changed in the meantime, but somehow I doubt it :)]
Greek Orthodox religion is somewhat of a misnomer. There are other Eastern Orthodox churches which are in communion with the church in Greece. The religion is Eastern Orthodox, Greek is a language/hierarchy within orthodoxy.
Also, I'm reading a book about Mt Athos now, it was mentioned that a tourist was on the island. That must have taken place ~100 years ago, mind you.
Also, I'm reading a book about Mt Athos now, it was mentioned that a tourist was on the island. That must have taken place ~100 years ago, mind you.
No, that's not correct. People from other religions are allowed. It's just that there's a daily limit to the amount of people who can enter the region and the analogy is like 10:1 orthodox/non-orthodox. I think it's like 120 people in total, or something like that.
I personally know a Catholic who had no trouble getting a permit to visit, so I don't think that's true.
[deleted]
The comments prove once again, as if proof was needed, that the easiest way to provoke an argument with a bunch of hackers is to bring up date-time.
From another article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36378690
"One of the traditions is that the Virgin Mary was blown off course when she was trying to sail to Cyprus and landed on Mount Athos. And she liked it so much that she prayed to her son that she should be given it as her own and he agreed," says Speake. "It's still called 'the garden of the mother of God', dedicated to her glory, and she alone represents her sex on Mount Athos."
This applies to both humans and domestic animals, except for cats.
"There are a lot of cats around and it's probably a quite a good thing that there are because they are good mousers. They turn a blind eye, as it were, to the fact that there are female cats," says Speake.
Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except when inconvenient.
"One of the traditions is that the Virgin Mary was blown off course when she was trying to sail to Cyprus and landed on Mount Athos. And she liked it so much that she prayed to her son that she should be given it as her own and he agreed," says Speake. "It's still called 'the garden of the mother of God', dedicated to her glory, and she alone represents her sex on Mount Athos."
This applies to both humans and domestic animals, except for cats.
"There are a lot of cats around and it's probably a quite a good thing that there are because they are good mousers. They turn a blind eye, as it were, to the fact that there are female cats," says Speake.
Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except when inconvenient.
I suppose it's not as much to do with convenience as it does with sex/celibacy.
Sheep are very useful, but present more chances for certain behaviours that monks want to prevent.
Hens are likewise allowed, AFAIK.
Sheep are very useful, but present more chances for certain behaviours that monks want to prevent.
Hens are likewise allowed, AFAIK.
In this specific instance I see this primarily as utilitarian practicality rather than inconvenience avoidance.
> Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except when...
...cats are involved. ;-)
...cats are involved. ;-)
There are exceptions. During the holocaust, Mt Athos sheltered Jewish families including women. Meanwhile, to avoid destruction from Hitler during the German occupation in Greece, they wrote to Hitler asking for his personal protection... which was granted
Also, the many female saints and especially the Theotokos (Mary) are prayed to often and are in an important sense present on the peninsula.
Also, the many female saints and especially the Theotokos (Mary) are prayed to often and are in an important sense present on the peninsula.
Wonder if they will get some kind of bonus points in heaven for the streak of daily prayers for more than a thousand years uninterrupted. Don't lose the streak! ;)
Not just that - monastics practice 'prayer without ceasing', hesychasm.
There's a great book "The Way of the Pilgrim" that explores a man's journey to discover what 'prayer without ceasing' means and how it could be possible.
There's also a monastery that was called 'the unsleeping ones' where they divided the hours of the day into shifts and had monastics in prayers throughout the day and night continuously.
There's a great book "The Way of the Pilgrim" that explores a man's journey to discover what 'prayer without ceasing' means and how it could be possible.
There's also a monastery that was called 'the unsleeping ones' where they divided the hours of the day into shifts and had monastics in prayers throughout the day and night continuously.
It's also traditional to hold vigil for an Orthodox Christian who has died for the first three days after their death, where someone is reading aloud the Psalms in the same room as their body the entire time.
At the end of the book The Broken Road [1], the great adventurer and writer Patrick Leigh Fermor writes about his stay on Mount Athos. This followed his 1930's journey, almost entirely on foot, from Holland down the Rhine and then along the Danube to Istanbul. The book and the two others about his trip are some of my all-time favorite bedtime reading.
There's more on Mount Athos on a website devoted to Fermor: [2]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/books/review/patrick-leig... (Archived: https://archive.ph/uAM3B )
[2] https://patrickleighfermor.org/2011/04/30/mount-athos-a-visi...
There's more on Mount Athos on a website devoted to Fermor: [2]
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/books/review/patrick-leig... (Archived: https://archive.ph/uAM3B )
[2] https://patrickleighfermor.org/2011/04/30/mount-athos-a-visi...
In gender segregated monasteries, how common was there of rules against inviting members of the opposite sex? As I understand it, there existed many different enclosed religious orders, both for men and women, and most Christian orders seems from a glance to be exclusive.
Orphans who grow up in such places must have gotten some very strange perspective about the world.
Orphans who grow up in such places must have gotten some very strange perspective about the world.
You're right that most monastic orders are either for women or for men exclusively, but there were some monasteries in Britain that were for both genders in one community, and were led by female abesses, which was unusual. I'm not near my home library, so I can't get you a reference, but it definitely existed, but was definitely out of the ordinary.
Mt Athos has its own scandal: Esphigmenou Monastery [0], one of the most religiously fanatic places on earth.
In short, the monks have seized the building for decades and deny any contact with anyone not heretic, while the official head lies in a safe place outside of Mt.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esphigmenou
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_Canal is pretty neat too
Interesting timing of this post. A priest from Hamatoura Monastery in Lebanon (https://lebanonuntravelled.com/hamatoura-monastery-kousba/), just died it was announced he is to be buried at Mount Athos.
Hamatoura appears to be of similar style of build, high up on a cliff....or rather in a cliff!
Hamatoura appears to be of similar style of build, high up on a cliff....or rather in a cliff!
With things like this, I always wonder how it was under the Byzantines. Probably not so bad, but probably not flying that flag either.
Oh whoops I meant to write the Ottomans. I don't really care how it was under the Byzantines that's not a such an interesting question to me!
During the cold war KGB agents used Mount Athos as a route into the west. Orthodox monks would get visa and eventually citizenship in Greece when they moved to live in Mount Athos. Russian Orthodox church was controlled by the KGB and the Soviet State, so it was easy for them to send spies as bearded monks who would leave after getting citizenship.
There's a great book by Lois McMaster Bujold called Ethan of Athos that somewhat explores this idea expanded to encompass an entire planet. Technically it's part of a series, but it's standalone. It follows an obstetrician from the planet that has to leave to acquire ovarian tissue cultures they need to produce more children.
The peninsula was on the invasion route of Xerxes I, who spent three years excavating the Xerxes Canal across the isthmus to allow the passage of his invasion fleet in 483 BC. After the death of Alexander the Great, the architect Dinocrates (Deinokrates) proposed carving the entire mountain into a statue of Alexander.
Talk about holding a gripe:
> The peninsula was raided by Catalan mercenaries in the 14th century in the so-called Catalan vengeance due to which the entry of people of Catalan origin was prohibited until 2005.
It seems Catalans are old troublemakers
> The peninsula was raided by Catalan mercenaries in the 14th century in the so-called Catalan vengeance due to which the entry of people of Catalan origin was prohibited until 2005.
It seems Catalans are old troublemakers
Your regular reminder that Anathem is a fantastic book. It explores different (non-religous) ideas of monastic life, and also features time-keeping outside regular society's sense of time...
I've been there once with my son for 4 days, had only 2 hours of sleep a day, no coffee, and didn't feel tired at all. You really feel you're on a different planet there!
> "Do all woman have haloes?" he wanted to know.
What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from society. There are tribes where women go around naked with no issue. Back in the Victorian era they used to go ga-ga over ankles.
So it'd be interesting exposing* a man like that, whose essentially a blank slate, to a nude woman and seeing what he finds attractive.
*no pun intended!
What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from society. There are tribes where women go around naked with no issue. Back in the Victorian era they used to go ga-ga over ankles.
So it'd be interesting exposing* a man like that, whose essentially a blank slate, to a nude woman and seeing what he finds attractive.
*no pun intended!
> What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from society.
I seriously doubt it. The main things that men find attractive are genetically programmed.
It's true that secondary things come from society (ankles as you say, beauty marks, long necks (hence the need for neck rings), etc), but that doesn't mean that a blank slate man would find long necks and breasts equally attractive.
I seriously doubt it. The main things that men find attractive are genetically programmed.
It's true that secondary things come from society (ankles as you say, beauty marks, long necks (hence the need for neck rings), etc), but that doesn't mean that a blank slate man would find long necks and breasts equally attractive.
sliq(5)
sliq(1)
> A visit to Mount Athos also involves literal time travel. The monasteries there still go by Byzantine time, in which the day begins at sunset, not midnight, so the time zone changes literally every day. Visitors may have to set their watches back by as much as seven hours as they cross the border. And don't forget to change the date as well. Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind. It's almost two weeks ago there!