Embedded Malicious Code in node-ipc(github.com)
github.com
Embedded Malicious Code in node-ipc
https://github.com/advisories/GHSA-97m3-w2cp-4xx6
137 comments
Previous discussion from a few days ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30717382
I maintain what is probably the most popular Ethereum simulator (Ganache) and it uses the npm ecosystem.
Years ago I chose to pin/lock all dependencies, even transitive dependencies (direct dependencies' dependencies) to much disagreement from the semver purists.
Crypto developers are extra high value targets because they likely access their wallet from the same machine they develop on. So I've taken a very hard stance on this, even feel we should do even better by disallowing updates for new releases (I realize adequate security here is not practical/feasible for most).
To make matters worse: devs often install npm packages with sudo (and I have a canned response for sudo related issues telling them that they must now format their drives to fix it, and even that might not be enough as their bios and other embedded firmware could also be compromised).
Meanwhile, yarn, a popular npm alternative, will NOT respect a package author's wishes to lock transitive dependencies. It's maddening (don't use yarn until/unless they fix this).
The only time a dependency shouldn't be pinned is if you are also the author of that dependency.
Anyway, people would say I'm fun at parties, but they stopped inviting me long ago.
Years ago I chose to pin/lock all dependencies, even transitive dependencies (direct dependencies' dependencies) to much disagreement from the semver purists.
Crypto developers are extra high value targets because they likely access their wallet from the same machine they develop on. So I've taken a very hard stance on this, even feel we should do even better by disallowing updates for new releases (I realize adequate security here is not practical/feasible for most).
To make matters worse: devs often install npm packages with sudo (and I have a canned response for sudo related issues telling them that they must now format their drives to fix it, and even that might not be enough as their bios and other embedded firmware could also be compromised).
Meanwhile, yarn, a popular npm alternative, will NOT respect a package author's wishes to lock transitive dependencies. It's maddening (don't use yarn until/unless they fix this).
The only time a dependency shouldn't be pinned is if you are also the author of that dependency.
Anyway, people would say I'm fun at parties, but they stopped inviting me long ago.
My preferred fix for Yarn dependency tracking is to use zero installs[1] as there is no command to run and dependencies can be exactly what ships in the repo and nothing more (with the right flags). If accepting PRs from third-parties, the check-cache flag can run in CI to validate checksums from untrusted contributors — plus, you know, reading dependency source code when you have the time or reason to do so would be great within a PR review also.
I wish more tools were able to concisely show you the differences between dependencies, but… sometimes dependencies have binaries and at that point you might need to fork or clone and build your own version of a dependency. I’d suggest only using dependencies when you can read and understand the code, but there are always limits. I can’t think of the last time I thought of a glibc dependency except when using Alpine or compiling something for Cgo. But it’s still something to keep in mind: that sometimes your project will be simpler and easier with fewer, smaller dependencies where you can read the code in full.
1: https://yarnpkg.com/features/zero-installs#does-it-have-secu...
I wish more tools were able to concisely show you the differences between dependencies, but… sometimes dependencies have binaries and at that point you might need to fork or clone and build your own version of a dependency. I’d suggest only using dependencies when you can read and understand the code, but there are always limits. I can’t think of the last time I thought of a glibc dependency except when using Alpine or compiling something for Cgo. But it’s still something to keep in mind: that sometimes your project will be simpler and easier with fewer, smaller dependencies where you can read the code in full.
1: https://yarnpkg.com/features/zero-installs#does-it-have-secu...
Great tips for application developers. Though this still exposes you to potential transitive dependency supply-chain attacks on first-time installs, though it's likely very low risk at this point, especially if you're careful as you've described.
For library authors that want to take reasonable precautions yarn makes it very hard. Though some suggest leaving transitive dependency updates up to the consumer makes yarn more secure, as they can update to the fixed packages sooner.. but I don't believe this benefit actually manifests often.
I guess the moral of the story is that semver is really great on paper, but people suck at it, sometimes on purpose.
For library authors that want to take reasonable precautions yarn makes it very hard. Though some suggest leaving transitive dependency updates up to the consumer makes yarn more secure, as they can update to the fixed packages sooner.. but I don't believe this benefit actually manifests often.
I guess the moral of the story is that semver is really great on paper, but people suck at it, sometimes on purpose.
In the extreme case, though, a library author can run their own build toolchain and create an executable npm module with zero declared dependencies, then version that as many times as they desire as long as their test cases guarantee that the new build still passes and dependencies have been thoroughly checked.
By publishing the source code to git, those who desire to use a specific version could alternately embed the git URL in their dependencies instead of the pre-built npm package.
Yarn Pack command can be used to run a build command[1] and Yarn Publish[2] in turn calls Yarn Pack, if I understand this correctly.
1: https://yarnpkg.com/advanced/lifecycle-scripts
2: https://yarnpkg.com/cli/npm/publish/#gatsby-focus-wrapper
That said… I agree that further work might be necessary here. I remember the first time I built an npm package and was confused when my lockfile in the package was completely ignored for dependency resolution. I don’t think this problem has gotten much attention, but the solution above might substantially solve the problem, if your dependencies are small enough to embed easily. It’s not ideal though, and I’d welcome other perspectives.
By publishing the source code to git, those who desire to use a specific version could alternately embed the git URL in their dependencies instead of the pre-built npm package.
Yarn Pack command can be used to run a build command[1] and Yarn Publish[2] in turn calls Yarn Pack, if I understand this correctly.
1: https://yarnpkg.com/advanced/lifecycle-scripts
2: https://yarnpkg.com/cli/npm/publish/#gatsby-focus-wrapper
That said… I agree that further work might be necessary here. I remember the first time I built an npm package and was confused when my lockfile in the package was completely ignored for dependency resolution. I don’t think this problem has gotten much attention, but the solution above might substantially solve the problem, if your dependencies are small enough to embed easily. It’s not ideal though, and I’d welcome other perspectives.
We do this for Ganache, except for 6 direct dependencies not authored by us, for some technical reasons. We do it twice as we ship a browser version and a node version. Our bundle size is not exactly ideal because of it. We'll be reducing our bundle size (the tarball downloaded from npm) soon and will likely increase it again shortly after by bundling these last 6 too.
Perhaps there’s an alternative to reduce the bundle size further: use code splitting or something like the shared module bundling that Webpack does for you when you have multiple entrypoints relying on the same shared code (if over a threshold minimum size) to reduce how much duplicated code is shipped multiple times for different entrypoints (e.g. uses or platforms or pages).
That said, the miracle of compression (and Yarn PnP not needing to uncompress) means you could have duplicate code and it won’t cost you much at all.
Another option would be to maintain your own dependencies by code splitting at the npm module level, but that could be considered an API-breaking change, I suppose, if the goal is to reduce how much is distributed by splitting out platforms.
You could also publish one layer of dependencies, probably, and still have exact versions pinned, but that would require maintaining CI build tools for your dependencies to ensure they are entirely built with no further dependencies or relying on republishing prebuilt no-dependency binaries in your own namespace.
I am reminded of how before tree-shaking became commonplace, it was routine to export libraries as lots of tiny npm packages, one per function sometimes, and import just the functions you needed as their own packages. That was taking it too far, and ECMAScript Modules (ESM) standards have somewhat replaced it, though for best tree-shaking you have to ensure your JS is actually modular and has no global state or side-effects when importing, which means you end up breaking some JS code when turning on Closure Compiler’s advanced mode, for example.
But we’re deep in the build optimization weeds now… the big advantage to pre-compiling libraries though is that you don’t have to tell others what build toolchain to use and instead provide standard ES5, ES6 or whatnot, already pre-compiled and ready for use (or… maybe, further tree-shaking…)
That said, the miracle of compression (and Yarn PnP not needing to uncompress) means you could have duplicate code and it won’t cost you much at all.
Another option would be to maintain your own dependencies by code splitting at the npm module level, but that could be considered an API-breaking change, I suppose, if the goal is to reduce how much is distributed by splitting out platforms.
You could also publish one layer of dependencies, probably, and still have exact versions pinned, but that would require maintaining CI build tools for your dependencies to ensure they are entirely built with no further dependencies or relying on republishing prebuilt no-dependency binaries in your own namespace.
I am reminded of how before tree-shaking became commonplace, it was routine to export libraries as lots of tiny npm packages, one per function sometimes, and import just the functions you needed as their own packages. That was taking it too far, and ECMAScript Modules (ESM) standards have somewhat replaced it, though for best tree-shaking you have to ensure your JS is actually modular and has no global state or side-effects when importing, which means you end up breaking some JS code when turning on Closure Compiler’s advanced mode, for example.
But we’re deep in the build optimization weeds now… the big advantage to pre-compiling libraries though is that you don’t have to tell others what build toolchain to use and instead provide standard ES5, ES6 or whatnot, already pre-compiled and ready for use (or… maybe, further tree-shaking…)
Do you regret using node/npm on such a high-risk installation?
When it was first built (6ish years ago? before I took over) there weren't any other practical options if you wanted an Ethereum simulator in JavaScript, which is a very common use case of ours.
Though now that wasm is popular and there are Rust implementations of Ethereum, I still think being able step into and debug from within a JavaScript application is valuable.
I think the ecosystem has just drank too much semver Kool-Aid.
So no, I don't regret it, and I don't think the problem is unique to npm, I think the problem is exacerbated by its popularity and addiction to loose semver (the default when installing a package by name).
Though now that wasm is popular and there are Rust implementations of Ethereum, I still think being able step into and debug from within a JavaScript application is valuable.
I think the ecosystem has just drank too much semver Kool-Aid.
So no, I don't regret it, and I don't think the problem is unique to npm, I think the problem is exacerbated by its popularity and addiction to loose semver (the default when installing a package by name).
Amen on semver. If you start pulling at that thread, the npm people start realising what a big mess they’ve gotten themselves in.
It's maddening the crypto world relies on Javascript so heavily. As a language it would never be my first, second, or even third choice for financial services.
I didn't know that about yarn transitives, do you have a link explaining more about the problem? I assumed a yarn.lock would.. lock, interesting to know more.
I assume the author is talking about the following problem:
I build library X and ship it with a lockfile to lock all transitive dependencies.
User installs library X, even though I ship a lock file, it isn’t respected. (I assume this makes Resolution way to complex)
If you ship a library where everything is locked, one should consider vendoring their dependencies. I think this is what npm does itself. (Or used to do). Or consider reducing your dependencies.
I build library X and ship it with a lockfile to lock all transitive dependencies.
User installs library X, even though I ship a lock file, it isn’t respected. (I assume this makes Resolution way to complex)
If you ship a library where everything is locked, one should consider vendoring their dependencies. I think this is what npm does itself. (Or used to do). Or consider reducing your dependencies.
> I assume this makes Resolution way to complex
I can’t speak to Yarn’s motivation, but I suspect for most Yarn users it’s not dissimilar to my own: pinning exact versions of transitive dependencies can be a big source of “audit fatigue” with NPM. It’s fine that authors wish to limit the surface area of version ranges they support, but for downstream users this can often mean being essentially held hostage with potential exposure to vulnerabilities and no reasonable alternative.
Yarn should, like NPM, default to honoring all pinned dependencies. Both now have facilities to override those defaults (resolutions/overrides respectively), which is important. But there should also be a more gentle middle ground of “yes I want to assume this library meant to use semver, I understand I’m slightly relaxing the contract in the lockfile” in the form of a CLI flag… rather than manually writing potentially hundreds of lines of JSON.
> Or consider reducing your dependencies.
I mean, that sounds nice in theory. But the whole number of dependencies thing is a systemic design problem more than anything. No one is installing 1000s of dependencies. They’re installing ~5-10 and getting 1000s.
I can’t speak to Yarn’s motivation, but I suspect for most Yarn users it’s not dissimilar to my own: pinning exact versions of transitive dependencies can be a big source of “audit fatigue” with NPM. It’s fine that authors wish to limit the surface area of version ranges they support, but for downstream users this can often mean being essentially held hostage with potential exposure to vulnerabilities and no reasonable alternative.
Yarn should, like NPM, default to honoring all pinned dependencies. Both now have facilities to override those defaults (resolutions/overrides respectively), which is important. But there should also be a more gentle middle ground of “yes I want to assume this library meant to use semver, I understand I’m slightly relaxing the contract in the lockfile” in the form of a CLI flag… rather than manually writing potentially hundreds of lines of JSON.
> Or consider reducing your dependencies.
I mean, that sounds nice in theory. But the whole number of dependencies thing is a systemic design problem more than anything. No one is installing 1000s of dependencies. They’re installing ~5-10 and getting 1000s.
> Yarn should, like NPM, default to honoring all pinned dependencies. Both now have facilities to override those defaults (resolutions/overrides respectively), which is important. But there should also be a more gentle middle ground of “yes I want to assume this library meant to use semver, I understand I’m slightly relaxing the contract in the lockfile” in the form of a CLI flag… rather than manually writing potentially hundreds of lines of JSON.
Yes, this! I want this, and for all nose package managers to share a lock file format.
Yes, this! I want this, and for all nose package managers to share a lock file format.
If a dependency includes it's own yarn.lock yarn will ignore it. It DOES respect the local lock file though, so it's not all bad.
ah ok so as a library author you can't actually enforce _your_ assumptions about transitives, bc user of the library local lock file overrides but as a library user with a local lock file that I craft and care about it is effective. That is a relief.
Yes. It's not a relief for everyone, especially library authors, as bugs can happen only on your particular set of transitive dependencies. What a fun time those days were.
Anyway, semver makes me sad sometimes. Haha
Anyway, semver makes me sad sometimes. Haha
Wouldn't it be more practical to do development inside a container or VM? Locking deps won't be enough if you haven't also audited them.
Sure, but the valuable crypto credentials need to get used somewhere and the paranoid (justifiably-so) will note that VM escapes vulnerabilities, while not common, do exist, and aren't just hypothetical.
The current best practice, as I see it, is is a disposable chromebook, backed by a cold wallet which holds the keys to the multi-million dollar hoard.
The current best practice, as I see it, is is a disposable chromebook, backed by a cold wallet which holds the keys to the multi-million dollar hoard.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness, and someone who thinks deeply about things with a touch of self-deprecation is the exact kind of conversation I enjoy at parties ;)
> Meanwhile, yarn, a popular npm alternative, will NOT respect a package author's wishes to lock transitive dependencies
Do you mean locking transitive dependencies across an upgrade of a direct dependencies? How does npm do that?
Do you mean locking transitive dependencies across an upgrade of a direct dependencies? How does npm do that?
How did you accomplish this practically? using '=' in package.json + shrinkwrap or vendoring in dependencies?
We bundle most, and ship npm-shrinkwrap.json for these ones we don't. The shrinkwrap is pruned (via a a custom script, not npm's prune command, because of reasons ) at publish time, as npm installs all dev dependencies if they exist in the shrinkwrap file (despite being marked as "dev": true in said shrinkwrap).
I feel like if you're a maintainer that does, or has done, this sort of thing you should not be maintaining software in FOSS. The FOSS ecosystem is built on a lot of trust and actions like this violate that foundation.
On the other hand, the people that sent SWAT teams to his door and sent death threats are equally threatening the trust foundations of FOSS.
Link to the vice article talking about SWATing: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dypeek/open-source-sabotage-...
On the other hand, the people that sent SWAT teams to his door and sent death threats are equally threatening the trust foundations of FOSS.
Link to the vice article talking about SWATing: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dypeek/open-source-sabotage-...
To me it’s just a reminder that you can’t just rely on trust and good faith when building systems including the internet itself. You have to design for bad actors or the honest people suffer.
Desktop computing is still too permissive for random bits of software. It's unreal that some random package you didn't even directly install has the ability to wipe your computer and steal the login cookie for your bank. Further work needs to be done to sandbox applications.
Just shows how well the trust system works. There is no foundation, unless some certified org wants to take it upon them to verify OSS. And that costs money.
That people call SWAT teams on the maintainer, I hadn't heard, but that's so much worse. The effect is also rather different. I don't have much OSS, and certainly nothing of any importance, but I'm going to keep the project I'm working on private. Too bad if someone else might have been interested.
That people call SWAT teams on the maintainer, I hadn't heard, but that's so much worse. The effect is also rather different. I don't have much OSS, and certainly nothing of any importance, but I'm going to keep the project I'm working on private. Too bad if someone else might have been interested.
The node-ipc package is fairly popular and it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to be in software or on machines that could result in someone being harmed. SWATing can certainly result in death, but obviously doesn't always (or most of the time). I think of them both as terrorism rather than trying to go through the mental gymnastics of which is worse.
If someone was running around your neighborhood trying to take your belongings, would you feel bad if someone called SWAT on them? I don't see how intentionally deleting people's files is much different.
You know that's not what swatting is right? It's when you call the police and falsely claim that someone is raping children in their basement or some other horrible crime so that a group of men with guns show up and arrest them. I vehemently disagree with what this guy did but he doesn't deserve that.
Swatting is calling the police saying the person in question is holding someone at gun point. The goal is to have police armed with rifles break down the door and storm the building.
It doesn’t take much for police or the people inside to get shot and possibly killed during raids. Many innocent people have been severely harmed. Infamously, an officer threw a flash bang (an explosive grenade with burning magnesium) through a window into a crib with a child in it. Another fired shots that went through the wall and killed a woman in another apartment. At least one police officer was shot and killed by an innocent home owner in legitimate self-defense.
This isn’t something to take lightly. Whether it not it was the caller’s intent, they tried to get someone killed.
It doesn’t take much for police or the people inside to get shot and possibly killed during raids. Many innocent people have been severely harmed. Infamously, an officer threw a flash bang (an explosive grenade with burning magnesium) through a window into a crib with a child in it. Another fired shots that went through the wall and killed a woman in another apartment. At least one police officer was shot and killed by an innocent home owner in legitimate self-defense.
This isn’t something to take lightly. Whether it not it was the caller’s intent, they tried to get someone killed.
Presumably a person taking my belongings is doing so in person
The difference is the possibility of actual bodily harm vs restoring a pc from a backup
Also for the record no please don’t bust out the swat team for a burglar, bit much
The difference is the possibility of actual bodily harm vs restoring a pc from a backup
Also for the record no please don’t bust out the swat team for a burglar, bit much
How can you be sure that deleting files doesn’t put someone’s life in danger?
I'm not sure the point you're making, the best option is to neither delete files or call out a swat team
In this case I'm saying the in person scenario is more likely to end up in a dead or injured person. They both remain bad choices.
In this case I'm saying the in person scenario is more likely to end up in a dead or injured person. They both remain bad choices.
[deleted]
this is not the useful analogy you think it is:
absolutely, yes, I strongly resent my neighbours who call for deadly force in response to petty property crime.
absolutely, yes, I strongly resent my neighbours who call for deadly force in response to petty property crime.
Yes and no, it depends on what you're considering petty property crime.
Someone breaking into my house to steal something while my family is home? They're getting shot in the forehead. I don't know their intentions, nor am I going to assume the best of intentions.
But I agree, SWAT in response to this is overboard. I would've been glad to see the author get proportionate repercussions (perhaps his Github/NPM accounts being deleted) as we know his intention, but putting his life in danger is too far.
Someone breaking into my house to steal something while my family is home? They're getting shot in the forehead. I don't know their intentions, nor am I going to assume the best of intentions.
But I agree, SWAT in response to this is overboard. I would've been glad to see the author get proportionate repercussions (perhaps his Github/NPM accounts being deleted) as we know his intention, but putting his life in danger is too far.
encryptluks2(1)
IANAL but I would go a lot further and say this behavior should be prosecuted. If this isn't a violation of the CFAA or something like it, it should be amended to include it.
This is a great and often overlooked/undervalued point. Purposefully sabotaging machines through code repositories should be considered spreading malware & be subject to civil & criminal lawsuits.
Edit: I think I would actually like to see a lawsuit come out of this example.
Edit: I think I would actually like to see a lawsuit come out of this example.
Targeting certain countries could be considered as act of terror. And reasonable standard in USA is to answer this with either drone strike to home or place of work of the terrorist in question.
That article also says “There was no actual code to wipe computers. It only puts a file on the desktop.” So what's all the fuss about?
There was also code to replace the content of every file on the system with a heart emoji. I am not certain about the timeline though.
I think that code was included, but not reachable. Horrible nonetheless.
Well, I assume that means "every file on the system that Node can access", and on a sensibly configured system I hope Node can't access that many important files - and the files Node can access are either in some git repo or backed up regularly?
Node is a programming language. It's used in multiple contexts, not just web. It runs CLI tools, it's the basis of Electron apps. There's no reason to assume it has limited privileges to access files.
Why would you imagine Node has any less access to a "sensibly configured system" than any other programming language/runtime?
Heh... that's a pretty optimistic take on the average node deployment. There are far too many systems where devs force admins to run 777 on certain directories to fix their bugs—or worse yet, they just have direct access to the servers and no understanding of permissions.
> But then some versions of “node-ipc,” the much more popular piece of software that RIAEvangelist maintains, started overwriting files on computers based in Russia and Belarus with a heart emoji, according to a post on GitHub.
Because he went from posting a heart emoji to deleting files.
Because he went from posting a heart emoji to deleting files.
> people that sent SWAT teams to his door and sent death threats
Where are you getting this?
Where are you getting this?
Not much detail, but:
"Miller told IT Pro that he had been swatted"
From: https://www.itpro.com/development/open-source/367129/open-so...
"Miller told IT Pro that he had been swatted"
From: https://www.itpro.com/development/open-source/367129/open-so...
This is career suicide and undermines the ecosystem due to the loss of trust.
Honest question, what can be done to address this type of issue? Lock fines are great and all but people rarely dig into their dependencies when upgrading.
How are you guys dealing with upgrades?
Honest question, what can be done to address this type of issue? Lock fines are great and all but people rarely dig into their dependencies when upgrading.
How are you guys dealing with upgrades?
> Honest question, what can be done to address this type of issue?
It is hard.
* Minimize dependencies. This is a problem for small organizations that really don't want to rewrite the world.
* Encourage dependencies on organizations that you have trust relationships or contractual relationships with. It is way less likely (though not impossible) that some malicious code will end up in an apache package than some random npm package owned by an individual person.
* Audit dependency changes. At the very least, have systems that detect various known-dangerous APIs showing up in OSS dependencies.
* Make it somebody's job to keep 3rd party code in check. This means pulling updates, auditing updates, and retiring unnecessary dependencies. People at your company should be able to get promoted by saying "we reduced the number of warranty-free dependencies in our codebase by 50%."
It is hard.
* Minimize dependencies. This is a problem for small organizations that really don't want to rewrite the world.
* Encourage dependencies on organizations that you have trust relationships or contractual relationships with. It is way less likely (though not impossible) that some malicious code will end up in an apache package than some random npm package owned by an individual person.
* Audit dependency changes. At the very least, have systems that detect various known-dangerous APIs showing up in OSS dependencies.
* Make it somebody's job to keep 3rd party code in check. This means pulling updates, auditing updates, and retiring unnecessary dependencies. People at your company should be able to get promoted by saying "we reduced the number of warranty-free dependencies in our codebase by 50%."
Also, don’t gitignore your node_modules directory.
Honestly, the way I wish we could fix this is to go back to people paying for software they rely on.
It would be (in my opinion) a fascinating court case to sue a company which got hacked which used lots of OSS, which all had a warranty that says "may not be fit for purpose".
If you built a house out of wood labelled "no warranty, may not be fit for purpose", and it fell down, I imagine you would be held responsible.
It would be (in my opinion) a fascinating court case to sue a company which got hacked which used lots of OSS, which all had a warranty that says "may not be fit for purpose".
If you built a house out of wood labelled "no warranty, may not be fit for purpose", and it fell down, I imagine you would be held responsible.
Honestly, the way I wish we could fix this is to go back to people paying for software they rely on.
How would that be enforced though? Most companies aren't going to be ok making outside connections to the wider internet to check that their JSON de-serializing package can be used.
How would that be enforced though? Most companies aren't going to be ok making outside connections to the wider internet to check that their JSON de-serializing package can be used.
Never mind enforcement, getting people to pay for things in the first place is actually really hard. Just look at Docker. They only charge for companies with more than $10 million of revenue or greater than 250 employees, yet every time they come up, they're accused of rug-pulling, and few people actually want to pay them for saving them time. Or maybe it's just a vocal minority.
At the other end of the enforcement spectrums is an enterprise-y place like Oracle and their army of lawyers. They may not be popular, but developer goodwill doesn't pay the bills, paying customers do. Sun never learned that lesson.
At the end of the day, if it's useful enough, IT can make a hole in the firewall. Just look at Splunk.
At the other end of the enforcement spectrums is an enterprise-y place like Oracle and their army of lawyers. They may not be popular, but developer goodwill doesn't pay the bills, paying customers do. Sun never learned that lesson.
At the end of the day, if it's useful enough, IT can make a hole in the firewall. Just look at Splunk.
We are freezing our dependencies and aiming at almost never upgrading or updating things when possible. We rarely need the new things these modules come with in newer versions especially because some enhancements are security concern disguised as features.
It seems that in the past 2 years people became more pissed about the current state of things than normal. Since fakerjs incident I no longer trust maintainers by default.
You know how some people get very funny in the head discussing politics? This seems to be entering the field of programming bit by bit after programmers slowly realized they are the ones who shape the world. Some people don't know how to handle that level of responsibility so they see 'contributing' as a means to having a lot of power so that when something pokes them wrong they can unleash all their anger and it's not on a 140-character tweet that does nothing and instead it is on all the companies they managed to hold ransom over the free work he was going over the time people were treating him right.
It seems that in the past 2 years people became more pissed about the current state of things than normal. Since fakerjs incident I no longer trust maintainers by default.
You know how some people get very funny in the head discussing politics? This seems to be entering the field of programming bit by bit after programmers slowly realized they are the ones who shape the world. Some people don't know how to handle that level of responsibility so they see 'contributing' as a means to having a lot of power so that when something pokes them wrong they can unleash all their anger and it's not on a 140-character tweet that does nothing and instead it is on all the companies they managed to hold ransom over the free work he was going over the time people were treating him right.
> We are freezing our dependencies and aiming at almost never upgrading or updating things when possible.
I think this is an equally bad idea. The supply-chain attacks make the news, but getting pwned because of a known vuln in some dependency is a regular occurrence. That 10 year old OpenSSL binary is bad news.
I think this is an equally bad idea. The supply-chain attacks make the news, but getting pwned because of a known vuln in some dependency is a regular occurrence. That 10 year old OpenSSL binary is bad news.
This plus when a vulnerability is discovered and you are a million versions behind facing practically a ground up rewrite to get back to API compatible it is extremely hard to deal with. There is some balance to be had by waiting for things to become tested and stable rather than always defaulting to the bleeding edge, and maintaining a reasonable cadence of dependency management. You don’t always need to be on the latest version but you always need to be ready to be on the latest version
I'll shill a little and answer this question:
Short-term: The only way out of this is to review + whitelist every package before it hits the NPM registry. This is something my company is building and we did a write up about it (and Node-ipc) here[0].
Longer term answer: Something like Deno needs to take off that adds permissions per dependency. We need to sandbox all untrusted code by default.
0: https://www.lunasec.io/docs/blog/node-ipc-protestware
Short-term: The only way out of this is to review + whitelist every package before it hits the NPM registry. This is something my company is building and we did a write up about it (and Node-ipc) here[0].
Longer term answer: Something like Deno needs to take off that adds permissions per dependency. We need to sandbox all untrusted code by default.
0: https://www.lunasec.io/docs/blog/node-ipc-protestware
I think a really useful piece of information here is why did the Java SecurityManager fail. People talk about sandboxing library code but this is literally what the SecurityManager made possible ages ago. But virtually zero applications make widespread use of the SecurityManager to isolate library code.
Was it a question of being too soon? Was it horribly un-ergonomic (this is the explanation I usually hear)? Did its features not actually match what developers need?
It feels like callstack based permissions are a natural solution to "holy shit my json deserialization code is deleting files on disk" but there clearly is some trap hidden here that caused old solutions to fail.
Was it a question of being too soon? Was it horribly un-ergonomic (this is the explanation I usually hear)? Did its features not actually match what developers need?
It feels like callstack based permissions are a natural solution to "holy shit my json deserialization code is deleting files on disk" but there clearly is some trap hidden here that caused old solutions to fail.
I personally really like the way wasm modules work. The modules all have a particular interface so you know exactly what they can do to the outside world, it's very clean.
> Honest question, what can be done to address this type of issue?
Limit your number of (transitive) dependencies, to lower the risk. Yes, this often needs more work on your side.
Use a curated package repository such as Debian/Ubuntu or Fedora (or a repository your company maintains), and only use dependencies from there. Yes, this is very painful for ecosystems that are still moving fast such as JS/Go/Rust, because many packages are not available yet, and non-security updates are less frequent.
Limit your number of (transitive) dependencies, to lower the risk. Yes, this often needs more work on your side.
Use a curated package repository such as Debian/Ubuntu or Fedora (or a repository your company maintains), and only use dependencies from there. Yes, this is very painful for ecosystems that are still moving fast such as JS/Go/Rust, because many packages are not available yet, and non-security updates are less frequent.
> Limit your number of (transitive) dependencies, to lower the risk.
This is not really a viable solution in the JS ecosystem if you're using any popular framework like Vue or React. Note Vue pulled in node-ipc.
This "malicious actor" problem can be solved by NPM if they allowed better options when deciding which dependency version to pull. Right now it will pull any semver compatible version the moment it is published - there is no way to say "wait until all versions are at least a week or two old", which would basically eliminate most of the effects of nefarious versions.
This is not really a viable solution in the JS ecosystem if you're using any popular framework like Vue or React. Note Vue pulled in node-ipc.
This "malicious actor" problem can be solved by NPM if they allowed better options when deciding which dependency version to pull. Right now it will pull any semver compatible version the moment it is published - there is no way to say "wait until all versions are at least a week or two old", which would basically eliminate most of the effects of nefarious versions.
> This is not really a viable solution in the JS ecosystem if you're using any popular framework like Vue or React. Note Vue pulled in node-ipc.
Then you may need to reconsider using this kind of framework. If enough people do it, they may have to be more careful about what dependencies they have themselves.
Then you may need to reconsider using this kind of framework. If enough people do it, they may have to be more careful about what dependencies they have themselves.
It should have been clear from outset that pulling any number of transitive dependencies is horrible idea from security viewpoint. Ofc, it is fast and cheap in the moment... But, long term it clearly is not the best way.
Mostly paying for some expensive software which says it protects us from this sort of crap but all it does is allow us to tick the compliance box while the engineers on the project flip between bouts of paranoia and insomnia.
I wish I was even joking.
At this point I tend to avoid importing anything if I can. I’ve written lots of stuff recently using Go and no imported packages because I trust the vendor more than I trust an open source package repo with 10,000 unknown contributors and dependencies.
I wish I was even joking.
At this point I tend to avoid importing anything if I can. I’ve written lots of stuff recently using Go and no imported packages because I trust the vendor more than I trust an open source package repo with 10,000 unknown contributors and dependencies.
Upgrade to the latest version only after its been available for 7 days. Obviously this won't work if everyone starts doing it.
Wasn't SolarWinds compromised for 6+ months? 7 days doesn't sound like enough time. Although maybe that's not a good comparison as this was open source and SolarWinds is closed source.
I remember watching a Walmart talk on Node.js and how they vet every single update to every single module before they pull it into their internal repository for internal distribution. Perhaps the answer is to stop blinding pulling down dependancies from the internet?
I remember watching a Walmart talk on Node.js and how they vet every single update to every single module before they pull it into their internal repository for internal distribution. Perhaps the answer is to stop blinding pulling down dependancies from the internet?
It's also about threat models, who you're trying to realistically protect yourself from. Some solo idiot with a political cause, not particularly targetting you? Waiting a week before using a new version is probably good enough. A government specifically targetting you? Likely nowhere near good enough. There's a lot in between of course.
>...Walmart talk on Node.js and how they vet every single update to every single module...
Most organizations are not as big as Walmart?
However, if the Walmarts/FANGS/etc with huge mega teams would publish their audited versions, that would be something. However, that seems like a liability without any potential gain for the mega teams.
Most organizations are not as big as Walmart?
However, if the Walmarts/FANGS/etc with huge mega teams would publish their audited versions, that would be something. However, that seems like a liability without any potential gain for the mega teams.
But what happens when the latest version fixes a zero-day? Stay vulnerable for a week?
In the hypothetical case all versions but the newest are vulnerable and the zero-day is also a problem in your specific deployment: manual tool validation is what should happen. Usually after a quick check if the package can be replaced easily.
In this case it was pretty much addressed: few people have installed the malicious version, due to lockfiles and it being quickly blackholed from the ecosystem, by the major package through which this dependency snuck in (vue-cli, IIRC) quickly pinning its dependency to the unaffected version.
Nope, I'd still hire them and this tells me the ecosystem is dealing with a threat in an appropriate way. Russia citizens have given up their right to play with the rest of the tech world. The fact that this is a silly way to do it doesn't change that In 2022 I'm having to explain that if your citizens are cheering you on as you invade a sovereign nation while indiscriminately killing civilian you will face some reprocussians from those of us who have said enough is enough.
Anything short of literally killing Russians, including a embargo is fair game.
Disagree? Go explain it to the Ukrainian father burying his daughter. I don't want to hear it.
Anything short of literally killing Russians, including a embargo is fair game.
Disagree? Go explain it to the Ukrainian father burying his daughter. I don't want to hear it.
Stop thinking in terms of abstractions (countries, nations, sovereignty, citizenry) and think in terms of people. People born into, living in the area of the Earth currently called Russia. Those people, each the equal of yourself, are what you call harm upon. It serves absolutely no purpose. What, you want everyday life to become so unpleasant for people that they take a flyer on a violent revolution to overthrow their government? You wish for them to plunge their country into civil war? And you cover this call to purposeless cruelty with emotional garbage about fathers burying daughters.
This idea that since some people in a country support its foreign misadventures they're fair game is the exact same reasoning employed by Osama bin Laden in his infamous Letter to America: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
This idea that since some people in a country support its foreign misadventures they're fair game is the exact same reasoning employed by Osama bin Laden in his infamous Letter to America: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
> And you cover this call to purposeless cruelty with emotional garbage about fathers burying daughters.
On top of that, if there is anybody on the planet I would even entertain that kind of argument/"activism" from, it would definitely not be somebody from the US.
On top of that, if there is anybody on the planet I would even entertain that kind of argument/"activism" from, it would definitely not be somebody from the US.
Regardless of whether I agree with you or not: his shitty method for identifying Russian computers would also target some IP addresses in Eastern Europe outside of Russia and Belarus.
You can look at my comment history. I'm a Russian and vehemently against the war and what Putin has been doing for decades. I'm unlucky to still remain in Russia for a number of personal reasons. Should my life's work be deleted because I'm unlucky to still be in Russia? Software developers in Russia are probably the group least likely to support the War or Putin, by the virtue of their familiarity with English and the west. While such software weapon of mass destruction could case real damage to civilians, cause suicides because their life's work has been erased. Attacking civilians is not unlike what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Indefensible.
you don't. unless your lib has an advisory, why would you upgrade? if it works it works. this whole movement of "move fast and break things" is braindamaged and it's about time it comes crashing unto itself.
> what can be done to address this type of issue?
Only auto-upgrade for security fixes. For all others, wait between month to a year to update a dependency, unless one specifically fixes a bug you are experiencing.
Only auto-upgrade for security fixes. For all others, wait between month to a year to update a dependency, unless one specifically fixes a bug you are experiencing.
NPM tells me that just about everything is a security issue. Apparently my linter has a critical security issue because I could put a malicious regex in my own linter config causing it to waste cpu..
You can also check the CVE and see if it's critical (or if it even affects your application) and wait if it's not. Security literacy makes your life easier.
This works for OSS code but not for all dependencies in general. That SDK or whatever you are using likely isn't getting CVEs filed on it.
Supplier-side: multi-party code review for acceptance of changes into widely-used software.
Consumer-side: multi-party review prior to upgrades of dependencies in applications.
(note that neither of these necessarily require knowing the identity of the software author(s). in fact, perhaps reviews would be less biased in the absence of that information)
Consumer-side: multi-party review prior to upgrades of dependencies in applications.
(note that neither of these necessarily require knowing the identity of the software author(s). in fact, perhaps reviews would be less biased in the absence of that information)
> Honest question, what can be done to address this type of issue?
Paid subscription-based NPM ? Yes, you could download a dependency directly from the repository on Github for free, but if do so through the paid NPM they assure you that the package is malware-free.
Paid subscription-based NPM ? Yes, you could download a dependency directly from the repository on Github for free, but if do so through the paid NPM they assure you that the package is malware-free.
I think first thing would be to remove wildcards from version specs and lock them to your known, tested versions. Then only do upgrades after some time of stability in the ecosystem (i'd wait months, not days, for that)
Waiting months means you don't get security fixes for months.
It's known knowns vs unknown unknowns. I'd much rather have the former.
> This is career suicide
Unlikely.
> undermines the ecosystem due to the loss of trust.
Good, that trust was always misplaced. At least it’s only Russia and Belarus getting screwed instead of everybody getting hit by ransomware.
Unlikely.
> undermines the ecosystem due to the loss of trust.
Good, that trust was always misplaced. At least it’s only Russia and Belarus getting screwed instead of everybody getting hit by ransomware.
I actually agree this is destroying your credibility as an author and caused me to search all projects author is involved in and blacklist them.
* Despite the motive for the act there is actual malicious code injected in a library without notifying or disclosing any information.
* The whole act was not well thought out. The check is rudimentary to put it gently, or plain naive to say it straight. Not only Russians are targeted but also anyone having vpns or other legitimate reasons to run under Russian IPs. Finally the check is crude and might as well fail at some point, with devastating effect.
* Author seems to be removing github issues, hiding conversations and doing damage control now that this backfires.
* Despite the motive for the act there is actual malicious code injected in a library without notifying or disclosing any information.
* The whole act was not well thought out. The check is rudimentary to put it gently, or plain naive to say it straight. Not only Russians are targeted but also anyone having vpns or other legitimate reasons to run under Russian IPs. Finally the check is crude and might as well fail at some point, with devastating effect.
* Author seems to be removing github issues, hiding conversations and doing damage control now that this backfires.
[deleted]
> I actually agree this is destroying your credibility as an author and caused me to search all projects author is involved in and blacklist them.
“FOSS developer” is hardly a career. Nobody is losing out on income by you blacklisting their projects.
“FOSS developer” is hardly a career. Nobody is losing out on income by you blacklisting their projects.
Lots of FOSS developers support themselves with lucrative jobs or contracts they received on the basis of their reputation within the FOSS community (conference circuit, online forums, professional network, etc.) and otherwise mainly develop for the clout. Social consequences can be very effective in this way. It isn't quite like being blackballed but you really can't piss too many people off before those contracts start disappearing. Network effects work in reverse too.
Wow that is naive. Geolocation by IP address is notoriously error-prone.
The most obvious is former Soviet republics, or any neighbour of a target nation, being mis-identified. That includes Ukraine itself, by the way, but also Finland and Poland. How about territory that is disputed? Or adjacent to enclaves like Kaliningrad? But it can also include friendly-nation assets that just happen to be currently inside Russia or Belarus, including government entities and journalists. It can affect folks simply relying on mobile networks near borders. Address blocks are routinely reallocated, reassigned, reused, misused, on a global basis and an address range announced in Korea last year can show up in Canada tomorrow.
Even geolocation by client-side request can be wrong, too. Not just because it's easy to lie, but major nations also fuck with the GPS, which is an issue currently affecting Baltic aviation¹. By the same token, IP geolocation databases are easily misled by self-reporting from mobile devices. Simple example: imagine someone using a dedicated VPS in the US as a personal VPN exit node for their devices when visiting mainland China (actually, we don't have to imagine: I did exactly this). Any IP-based location assumptions start out incorrect, since it's by VPN exit IP; but later on, thanks to mobile device reporting, that IP address can end up misclassified long-term as "Chinese".
None of this is hypothetical. I visited Jordan a few years ago and whilst visiting ruins near Umm Qais, up by the Sea of Galilee, my phone was switching to Israeli networks. I also know of an Australian startup that was mis-identified as Russian and lost access to a major partner API². That's since resolved, but the point is, forget what you see on police procedurals; identifying the political jurisdiction of a device, whether it's by IP address or any other means, remains an art, not a science, and it's incredibly easy to be wrong.
As for the suggestion that the rest of us remain unaffected; any malware incident in the node ecosystem requires immediate attention and audit from every security team, whether you were the intended target or not. This idiot has cost all of us time and energy.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/09/finland-gps-di...
[2] https://twitter.com/cyclytics/status/1503211938133966851
The most obvious is former Soviet republics, or any neighbour of a target nation, being mis-identified. That includes Ukraine itself, by the way, but also Finland and Poland. How about territory that is disputed? Or adjacent to enclaves like Kaliningrad? But it can also include friendly-nation assets that just happen to be currently inside Russia or Belarus, including government entities and journalists. It can affect folks simply relying on mobile networks near borders. Address blocks are routinely reallocated, reassigned, reused, misused, on a global basis and an address range announced in Korea last year can show up in Canada tomorrow.
Even geolocation by client-side request can be wrong, too. Not just because it's easy to lie, but major nations also fuck with the GPS, which is an issue currently affecting Baltic aviation¹. By the same token, IP geolocation databases are easily misled by self-reporting from mobile devices. Simple example: imagine someone using a dedicated VPS in the US as a personal VPN exit node for their devices when visiting mainland China (actually, we don't have to imagine: I did exactly this). Any IP-based location assumptions start out incorrect, since it's by VPN exit IP; but later on, thanks to mobile device reporting, that IP address can end up misclassified long-term as "Chinese".
None of this is hypothetical. I visited Jordan a few years ago and whilst visiting ruins near Umm Qais, up by the Sea of Galilee, my phone was switching to Israeli networks. I also know of an Australian startup that was mis-identified as Russian and lost access to a major partner API². That's since resolved, but the point is, forget what you see on police procedurals; identifying the political jurisdiction of a device, whether it's by IP address or any other means, remains an art, not a science, and it's incredibly easy to be wrong.
As for the suggestion that the rest of us remain unaffected; any malware incident in the node ecosystem requires immediate attention and audit from every security team, whether you were the intended target or not. This idiot has cost all of us time and energy.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/09/finland-gps-di...
[2] https://twitter.com/cyclytics/status/1503211938133966851
> As for the suggestion that the rest of us remain unaffected; any malware incident in the node ecosystem requires immediate attention and audit from every security team, whether you were the intended target or not. This idiot has cost all of us time and energy.
The truth is that you are the idiot if you only perform audits when someone else announces an incident. You’ve already lost at that point.
It’s nobody else’s fault but yours if you waste time because of your shit policies.
But go on, keep digging an ever deeper hole for yourself with pathetic attempts at shifting blame. It’s absolutely your security teams job to audit all incoming code, rather than blindly trusting stuff from NPM.
The truth is that you are the idiot if you only perform audits when someone else announces an incident. You’ve already lost at that point.
It’s nobody else’s fault but yours if you waste time because of your shit policies.
But go on, keep digging an ever deeper hole for yourself with pathetic attempts at shifting blame. It’s absolutely your security teams job to audit all incoming code, rather than blindly trusting stuff from NPM.
This is doubling down with more poorly considered assumptions and demonstrating an overwhelming lack of knowledge about security process, and with such vehement and pernicious language I could only laugh aloud at the remarks.
Because: we already do routine malware scanning and audit, and review of every changing dependency that we know of, and their transitive dependencies. The scale and frequency of change is one of the reasons to minimise exposure to the fragmented, chaotic shitshow of the node ecosystem.
When there's an incident - and this is most definitely an incident - we have to do more work to verify there was no inadvertent occurrence, that it did not slip through, etc etc.
What's more, one must necessarily download the shit to inspect it, which means you're potentially now holding an unexploded bomb sitting in your developer laptop, for which possibly the only mitigation is that it's sitting inside a container or virtual machine, and one must be careful not to trigger it.
Due to the destruction of trust, we'll also be making an additional effort to remove and replace this and any other package from the same author, and any repository to which they have contributed has to be considered potentially tainted and subject to additional review.
Since you didn't apparently know any of this, I don't think you have any standing to comment on security team procedures.
Because: we already do routine malware scanning and audit, and review of every changing dependency that we know of, and their transitive dependencies. The scale and frequency of change is one of the reasons to minimise exposure to the fragmented, chaotic shitshow of the node ecosystem.
When there's an incident - and this is most definitely an incident - we have to do more work to verify there was no inadvertent occurrence, that it did not slip through, etc etc.
What's more, one must necessarily download the shit to inspect it, which means you're potentially now holding an unexploded bomb sitting in your developer laptop, for which possibly the only mitigation is that it's sitting inside a container or virtual machine, and one must be careful not to trigger it.
Due to the destruction of trust, we'll also be making an additional effort to remove and replace this and any other package from the same author, and any repository to which they have contributed has to be considered potentially tainted and subject to additional review.
Since you didn't apparently know any of this, I don't think you have any standing to comment on security team procedures.
Nah, your processes are just terrible. They might be “industry standard”, but so was storing plaintext credit card information.
>This is doubling down with more poorly considered assumptions and demonstrating an overwhelming lack of knowledge about security process
Sorry, but no. I’ve worked in this field for two decades. What you’re describing is meaningless security theatre meant to appease the people paying your salaries.
>This is doubling down with more poorly considered assumptions and demonstrating an overwhelming lack of knowledge about security process
Sorry, but no. I’ve worked in this field for two decades. What you’re describing is meaningless security theatre meant to appease the people paying your salaries.
Oh look, some more poorly informed personal invective! I had no idea it was possible to triple down on being a clueless dick, but you’ve successfully demonstrated that point. Alas, nothing else. Oh, and only two decades? It explains the rookie naïveté and flailing, ranting insecurities, I suppose. But I think you’ve got a fourth go in you, why stop now? I’m sure there’s a few more witless assumptions and unoriginal epithets left to fling around in vacuous defense of the indefensible.
No matter how many words we waste, you will still be the guy complaining about your job being a waste of time while simultaneously trying to defend the decisions causing you to waste your time.
And for what it’s worth, you started it with the insults and silly appeals to authority.
And for what it’s worth, you started it with the insults and silly appeals to authority.
There we go! Moronic, childish, deluded nonsense, and you still haven’t added anything of substance since “you are the idiot”.
I’ve also just realised you’re the same nutter who was desperate to prove Bill Woodcock doesn’t have (and I quote) ”basic understanding of DNS”.
Ok, I’m done smacking this particular witless, flailing troll around. Be seeing you.
I’ve also just realised you’re the same nutter who was desperate to prove Bill Woodcock doesn’t have (and I quote) ”basic understanding of DNS”.
Ok, I’m done smacking this particular witless, flailing troll around. Be seeing you.
See, that’s all you’ve got. Empty appeals to authority.
Bill Woodcock got the technical details utterly wrong. His track record doesn’t matter when he’s spewing out bullshit, it’s still just that.
Just read your comments again https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30513375
You were trying to argue that pulling out root nameservers from Russia would be a bad thing because … Roskomnadzor can only restrict access to foreign DNS servers?
And you call me deluded.
Bill Woodcock got the technical details utterly wrong. His track record doesn’t matter when he’s spewing out bullshit, it’s still just that.
Just read your comments again https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30513375
You were trying to argue that pulling out root nameservers from Russia would be a bad thing because … Roskomnadzor can only restrict access to foreign DNS servers?
And you call me deluded.
Not sure what you mean by "appeals to authority".
Fairly sure you don't know what that phrase means. Whose authority, exactly? I'll appeal to my own, I suppose, but that is because I actually know what I'm talking about.
Definitely sure you don't have anything to say, but are committed to telling people they're stupid because ... you have little else to contribute, and are stuck in a muddy trench of incoherent rage you dug for yourself. Again.
Fairly sure you don't know what that phrase means. Whose authority, exactly? I'll appeal to my own, I suppose, but that is because I actually know what I'm talking about.
Definitely sure you don't have anything to say, but are committed to telling people they're stupid because ... you have little else to contribute, and are stuck in a muddy trench of incoherent rage you dug for yourself. Again.
> Not sure what you mean by "appeals to authority".
Read our previous conversation, your comments were about Woodcocks background up until you wanted to change the topic entirely to discuss Russian internet censorship. You were completely unable to come up with a coherent technical explanation as to why Bill wasn’t wrong when he said what he did.
> I suppose, but that is because I actually know what I'm talking about.
That’s it. You can’t supply any useful facts, everything that comes out of your mouth is supposed to be the truth because you are an expert.
Yet, your Linkedin makes it pretty clear that you are a nobody. Just a perpetual software developer and occasional low level manager without any real achievements in his life.
I tried very hard to dig a fact based argument out of you, but I think you know very well that you’re defending bad policy.
The idea that declaring an “incident” over something like this is actually necessary, rather than just a move to appease questions from management is completely frivolous. If you were serious about your security posture, you’d be prepared for these events in the first place.
Trusting NPM is inevitably going to get you hacked.
> are stuck in a muddy trench of incoherent rage you dug for yourself. Again.
Read your own comments, they’re the incoherent ramblings of a crackhead.
> Definitely sure you don't have anything to say, but are committed to telling people they're stupid because
Look in the mirror, you were the first person in this conversation to use words like “idiot”. I merely suggested that the word would be better applied to you.
Read our previous conversation, your comments were about Woodcocks background up until you wanted to change the topic entirely to discuss Russian internet censorship. You were completely unable to come up with a coherent technical explanation as to why Bill wasn’t wrong when he said what he did.
> I suppose, but that is because I actually know what I'm talking about.
That’s it. You can’t supply any useful facts, everything that comes out of your mouth is supposed to be the truth because you are an expert.
Yet, your Linkedin makes it pretty clear that you are a nobody. Just a perpetual software developer and occasional low level manager without any real achievements in his life.
I tried very hard to dig a fact based argument out of you, but I think you know very well that you’re defending bad policy.
The idea that declaring an “incident” over something like this is actually necessary, rather than just a move to appease questions from management is completely frivolous. If you were serious about your security posture, you’d be prepared for these events in the first place.
Trusting NPM is inevitably going to get you hacked.
> are stuck in a muddy trench of incoherent rage you dug for yourself. Again.
Read your own comments, they’re the incoherent ramblings of a crackhead.
> Definitely sure you don't have anything to say, but are committed to telling people they're stupid because
Look in the mirror, you were the first person in this conversation to use words like “idiot”. I merely suggested that the word would be better applied to you.
Hi. Please educate me. What technical details do I have wrong?
The thread https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500
> 2) Shut down the root nameservers inside Russia. That would make connectivity spotty for many users inside Russia, but mostly regular folks, not government or military users.
That’s just not true. Shutting down root nameservers inside Russia would not make anyones connection spotty in any meaningful way.
How would that even work? It’s not like sending root NS queries abroad is a big deal, especially since most people will be using ISP nameservers and have those replies cached anyway.
Also
> In the short-term, this is a bad plan because it would cut the Russian man-on-the-street off from international news and perspectives, leaving them with only what the Russian government chooses to tell them. That's not a great way to decrease Russian public support for the war.
This wouldn’t be a consequence of any of the things you listed. International news don’t live on .ru TLD, they don’t depend on domestic root nameservers or Russian IP allocations either.
> 2) Shut down the root nameservers inside Russia. That would make connectivity spotty for many users inside Russia, but mostly regular folks, not government or military users.
That’s just not true. Shutting down root nameservers inside Russia would not make anyones connection spotty in any meaningful way.
How would that even work? It’s not like sending root NS queries abroad is a big deal, especially since most people will be using ISP nameservers and have those replies cached anyway.
Also
> In the short-term, this is a bad plan because it would cut the Russian man-on-the-street off from international news and perspectives, leaving them with only what the Russian government chooses to tell them. That's not a great way to decrease Russian public support for the war.
This wouldn’t be a consequence of any of the things you listed. International news don’t live on .ru TLD, they don’t depend on domestic root nameservers or Russian IP allocations either.
[deleted]
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The maintainer needs to go to jail. They knowingly distributed malware.
Other projects adopted non-malicious approach, where they publish anti war manifests: https://github.com/medikoo/es5-ext/blob/edf9fbac6c0d72a6192d...
For extra irony, observe that node-ipc was previously released under the "Don't Be A Dick" license¹, only switching to MIT in late 2020². The DBAD license includes this:
[1] http://dbad-license.org/
[2] https://github.com/RIAEvangelist/node-ipc/commit/9a1ad86d17a...
Being a dick includes - but is not limited to - the following instances:
(...)
1c. Modifying the original work to contain hidden harmful content. That would make you a PROPER dick.
[1] http://dbad-license.org/
[2] https://github.com/RIAEvangelist/node-ipc/commit/9a1ad86d17a...
GitHub really needs to explain itself here. I reported this repo, and of course they never really tell you what they decide to do. However, I asked them specifically to clarify themselves on their malware policies. Since from the looks of it, GitHub declared this as malicious code, but then still left the repo up and the maintainer has apparently suffered no consequences, since he later reverted the malicious code.
So the message they are apparently sending here is that means that it's totally OK to host malware on GitHub, given that it's targeted against a politically unpopular group of people, and if you later revert the change after it's done a bunch of damage.
Are some of those Russian developers assholes who support the Ukrainian genocide? Probably yes, but it's an extremely bad precedent to set to allow someone to use your platform for this just because it's politically fashionable.
And yes, I know that there are other things that other people might consider "malware" on GitHub under an overbroad definition of it (exploit PoCs, things like yt-dl, etc.), but this is pretty clear cut, since it hid this "feature" from users and very clearly caused destruction. Either the developer is incompetent at writing obfuscated code and the wiping functionality was a mistake (unlikely), or they are just that dishonest about what their motives actually were. Or just plain delusions of grandeur, equating cyberwarfare with peace...
Apparently though, it's all OK in this instance since it's collective punishment against the right group of people. I think the thing that makes me most angry about this is that the malware developer used the assumption that geo-ip databases are always 100% accurate...
So the message they are apparently sending here is that means that it's totally OK to host malware on GitHub, given that it's targeted against a politically unpopular group of people, and if you later revert the change after it's done a bunch of damage.
Are some of those Russian developers assholes who support the Ukrainian genocide? Probably yes, but it's an extremely bad precedent to set to allow someone to use your platform for this just because it's politically fashionable.
And yes, I know that there are other things that other people might consider "malware" on GitHub under an overbroad definition of it (exploit PoCs, things like yt-dl, etc.), but this is pretty clear cut, since it hid this "feature" from users and very clearly caused destruction. Either the developer is incompetent at writing obfuscated code and the wiping functionality was a mistake (unlikely), or they are just that dishonest about what their motives actually were. Or just plain delusions of grandeur, equating cyberwarfare with peace...
Apparently though, it's all OK in this instance since it's collective punishment against the right group of people. I think the thing that makes me most angry about this is that the malware developer used the assumption that geo-ip databases are always 100% accurate...
It looks like the node-ipc has become a target for spam issues lately[0]. This reminds me of what happened with Notepad++[1] (except that was nothing compared to what the node-ipc maintainer did.)
EDIT: looks like Notepad++ also made a political statement about the crisis in Ukraine[2].
[0]: https://github.com/RIAEvangelist/node-ipc/issues?q=is%3Aissu... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21400526 [2]: https://notepad-plus-plus.org/news/v833-make-apps-not-war/
EDIT: looks like Notepad++ also made a political statement about the crisis in Ukraine[2].
[0]: https://github.com/RIAEvangelist/node-ipc/issues?q=is%3Aissu... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21400526 [2]: https://notepad-plus-plus.org/news/v833-make-apps-not-war/
What the node ipc maintainer did was prove there was at least one person with scruples in this industry. Reading the rest of this thread is proving he's a minority though, depressing.
Also if you're going to delete my comments just delete my account. I'm done ignoring my industry will gladly enable dictators and pretending we are neutral. We are complicit and we need to take a stand... Or maybe we all just want to collect our fat paychecks while inventing more ways to kill people. Shrug.
Also if you're going to delete my comments just delete my account. I'm done ignoring my industry will gladly enable dictators and pretending we are neutral. We are complicit and we need to take a stand... Or maybe we all just want to collect our fat paychecks while inventing more ways to kill people. Shrug.
I think you need to stop watching American cable news for a couple days. Acts like these will kill the open source ecosystem - an incredible achievement of humanity that showcases us at our best, working to help each other with limited individual economic incentive.
Does anyone have an idea as to why OSS maintainers are doing this more and more often? Are they fed up with the sustainability of OSS that this is an opportunity to retaliate? I think this is the third "supply chain attack" through protest in two months. Is this the right way to protest?
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I suspect it's just the fact that there are a lot more SJW types doing software than there used to be.
Well I think it's more because of the internet's lack of civility and lack of foresight/forethought, than a strictly SJW thing.
I could see someone on the right pulling a stunt like this if there was an equal representation of conservative coders in the OSS community.
I could see someone on the right pulling a stunt like this if there was an equal representation of conservative coders in the OSS community.
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I guess that the only solution for malicious packages problem would be to have someone review the code. As there's lot of code and reviewing takes time, this has to be a paid service - for a pay you get access to a "safe" repository.
I am not sure if it could be viable business model though. People who use open source got used that it is free and are unlikely to pay.
I am not sure if it could be viable business model though. People who use open source got used that it is free and are unlikely to pay.
Tangential question(s): is there a way to lock node projects within a folder, that is, prevent any scripting action going outside its source folder? Creating a group that has permissions to specific folder helps? How can one isolate these projects (possible) harmful behaviour?
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Treating this as "malicious" isn't helping fight Russian disinformation, which is even more concerning seeing as Russian developers are openly dismissing genocide in Ukraine, and unironically citing Putinist "anti-nazi" propaganda.