Switzerland plans to ban electric car use during power shortages this winter(dailymail.co.uk)
dailymail.co.uk
Switzerland plans to ban electric car use during power shortages this winter
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11494991/Switzerland-BAN-electric-cars-roads-power-shortages.html
29 comments
> Christmas lights turned off
Cooking a single baked potato in the oven uses more power than my christmas lights for the entire season. Meanwhile there's still a bunch of (mainly old) people bemoaning the lack of 100W incandescent bulbs.
Cooking a single baked potato in the oven uses more power than my christmas lights for the entire season. Meanwhile there's still a bunch of (mainly old) people bemoaning the lack of 100W incandescent bulbs.
I'm not sure what point your trying to make. It makes sense to ban Christmas lights and not cooking, even if cooking requires more power. Cooking is maybe not technically required to eat, but it's about as close to an essential use of power as you can get next to heating. And I'm sure those same people will bemoan the lack of Christmas lights too.
Who are you to determine that using 1kWh for an evening of TV and 500Wh baking a potato is more essential than me using 70Wh cooking my potato in a microwave and 20Wh reading a book while looking at some nice christmas lights.
If we want to ration electric use, increase the costs. Add say 50c/kWh, and let people determine what they want to reduce.
If we want to ensure people can still use an essential amount, say 10kWh a day or whatever, give everyone €150 a month to pay the extra costs, funded from the extra costs of those choosing to run incandescent light bulbs.
In the UK we did the complete opposite, we chose to subsidise electric consumption.
If we want to ration electric use, increase the costs. Add say 50c/kWh, and let people determine what they want to reduce.
If we want to ensure people can still use an essential amount, say 10kWh a day or whatever, give everyone €150 a month to pay the extra costs, funded from the extra costs of those choosing to run incandescent light bulbs.
In the UK we did the complete opposite, we chose to subsidise electric consumption.
> Who are you to determine that using 1kWh for an evening of TV and 500Wh baking a potato is more essential than me using 70Wh cooking my potato in a microwave and 20Wh reading a book while looking at some nice christmas lights.
Me? I'm no one, and did not attempt to. I only pointed out that the comparison to cooking and having Christmas lights is nonsensical, given the clear difference in impacts not eating vs not looking at pretty lights once a year has on ones health.
As for if disallowing Christmas lights makes any sense in a power crisis, well it'd take more research than I have any interest in doing to answer that question, so I offer no opinion, beyond noting that a surprising number of Christmas lights are incandescence still, so the impact might be larger than you'd assume, and every little bit helps.
As for using market prices to solve everything that ensures the rich feel no restrictions while everyone else does. If your OK with that is up to you.
Me? I'm no one, and did not attempt to. I only pointed out that the comparison to cooking and having Christmas lights is nonsensical, given the clear difference in impacts not eating vs not looking at pretty lights once a year has on ones health.
As for if disallowing Christmas lights makes any sense in a power crisis, well it'd take more research than I have any interest in doing to answer that question, so I offer no opinion, beyond noting that a surprising number of Christmas lights are incandescence still, so the impact might be larger than you'd assume, and every little bit helps.
As for using market prices to solve everything that ensures the rich feel no restrictions while everyone else does. If your OK with that is up to you.
Next you'll say the Family unit is "non-essential" and can be banned
Huh? I don't understand what you are implying.
Electric cars can not possibly exist on a large scale outside of massive investments in energy infrastructure.
I don't even know what to say anymore. How much will energy production rise in your country during its transition to renewables?
I don't even know what to say anymore. How much will energy production rise in your country during its transition to renewables?
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Saying "can not possibly exist" is just a bad way to start an argument. No one is arguing that absolutely no changes to the grid shall take place. New power plants will be built as needed to handle future loads.
The loads will be handled in the same way massive city growth has always been handled; through market-based pricing strategies and development of new production.
Europe is undergoing major geopolitical conflict, adding unique and massive stress to the system. European will cope and adapt.
The loads will be handled in the same way massive city growth has always been handled; through market-based pricing strategies and development of new production.
Europe is undergoing major geopolitical conflict, adding unique and massive stress to the system. European will cope and adapt.
>No one is arguing that absolutely no changes to the grid shall take place.
Yes. In fact one common demand is an almost total replacement of current fossil and nuclear plants.
The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity. If you want to see more electric cars on the street the first step should be to reduce the price of energy and the stability of the infrastructure.
EU countries are planning to ban fossil fuel powered cars in the next decade, is energy production actually catching up? Or to rephrase: when will Germany stop being the country with one of the highest energy prices in the world?
Yes. In fact one common demand is an almost total replacement of current fossil and nuclear plants.
The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity. If you want to see more electric cars on the street the first step should be to reduce the price of energy and the stability of the infrastructure.
EU countries are planning to ban fossil fuel powered cars in the next decade, is energy production actually catching up? Or to rephrase: when will Germany stop being the country with one of the highest energy prices in the world?
"The viability of electric cars is directly related to the local price of electricity."
Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity? Outside of like the middle east maybe. I suppose you'd have to remove gas taxes for a clearer picture. But that just shows that the government can make electric viable whenever they want by raising gas prices.
Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity? Outside of like the middle east maybe. I suppose you'd have to remove gas taxes for a clearer picture. But that just shows that the government can make electric viable whenever they want by raising gas prices.
> Is there anywhere on earth where gas is cheaper than electricity?
This is a bit complicated, since the two are not directly equivalent.
But as an example example, we can compare a 30mpg car with an EV rated at .24kWh/mile (advertised consumption for a Tesla Model 3). 250 miles would be around 60kWh or 8.33 gallons. Power averages (in the US) around $0.20 per kWh right now, gas about $3.38 per gallon. There's a lot of variance by state for both of these, of course.
And so, for 250 miles, gas would be $28.16, whereas electricity would be $12.
So the answer to your question is: Probably. It's only around 2.5x difference in price, which could easily be inverted somewhere that has a significant oil supply but low power generation capability.
This is a bit complicated, since the two are not directly equivalent.
But as an example example, we can compare a 30mpg car with an EV rated at .24kWh/mile (advertised consumption for a Tesla Model 3). 250 miles would be around 60kWh or 8.33 gallons. Power averages (in the US) around $0.20 per kWh right now, gas about $3.38 per gallon. There's a lot of variance by state for both of these, of course.
And so, for 250 miles, gas would be $28.16, whereas electricity would be $12.
So the answer to your question is: Probably. It's only around 2.5x difference in price, which could easily be inverted somewhere that has a significant oil supply but low power generation capability.
I have a Toyota rav4 plugin in europe. Gas costs 1.7€/liter, gets about 6l/100km for about 10.7 cents per km. On electric it goes about 73km for 14kwh which costs about .60€ per kWh which is about 11.3 cents per kWh. Of course the at-home rate is about half this cost so you will do better there, but fast-charge rates are about the same gas and electric.
So you’re saying that terawatt hours of grid connected storage with highly efficient inverters … cannot support the grid during the transition?
EDIT: for those not paying attention, the ability to provide grid-tied on-demand power has been in the Tesla since the original roadster.
The fact that most people complaining about imminent grid collapse don’t know this (or don’t realize what it means, or don’t care) makes this debate tiresome.
EDIT: for those not paying attention, the ability to provide grid-tied on-demand power has been in the Tesla since the original roadster.
The fact that most people complaining about imminent grid collapse don’t know this (or don’t realize what it means, or don’t care) makes this debate tiresome.
Energy storage doesn't generate energy.
Energy storge does not decrease the usage of energy infastructure or the need to maintain it.
The need for storage depends on the type of power that is being generated. E.g. a nuclear powerplant can easily change its production, a solar panel or wind turbine can not, that requires renewables to rely on over production and storage for continous delivery. Btw. there isn't enough lithium in the world to make this happen globally.
The need for storage depends on the type of power that is being generated. E.g. a nuclear powerplant can easily change its production, a solar panel or wind turbine can not, that requires renewables to rely on over production and storage for continous delivery. Btw. there isn't enough lithium in the world to make this happen globally.
As always;
- there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks.
- Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand.
So long as the 24-hour average demand was satisfied by the grid supply, the grid would do fine.
- there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks.
- Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand.
So long as the 24-hour average demand was satisfied by the grid supply, the grid would do fine.
>- there is plenty of excess off-peak power available; grid collapse happens at the peaks.
And?
>- Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand.
There still is not enough. It isn't even close.
My point was that energy storage doesn't solve the problem of total under supply and a need for increased grid infrastructure.
And?
>- Lithium supply is a limiting factor for both EV demand and grid-tied battery capacity, so if cars themselves provided grid tied power, they would necessarily scale with the demand.
There still is not enough. It isn't even close.
My point was that energy storage doesn't solve the problem of total under supply and a need for increased grid infrastructure.
Don’t get me wrong — I think destroying quality base load capacity is apocalyptically stupid.
But EVs aren’t the problem. They could be part of a solution.
But EVs aren’t the problem. They could be part of a solution.
Electric cars connected to the grid provides massive amounts of distributed storage, perfect for intermittent supplies and to smooth peak usage.
There isn't enough lithium in the world to make that possible globally.
It also doesn't solve any of the other problems.
It also doesn't solve any of the other problems.
Except for essential journeys.
And this is only in extremis.
And this is only in extremis.
If you care about my car, you'll keep your car at home.
I know complaining about the source is gauche but the Daily Mail should probably just be banned from HN. The actual draft "ban" on electric cars is a restriction on essential travel and is still only a proposal in case of massive electric shortages - the language translated;
> Shop opening hours must be reduced by 1-2 hours per day. Each store format can determine the time slot independently. If a company decides to close certain branches completely or to only open the shop on certain days, the number of closed hours will count towards the reduction in shop opening times for the entire branch network.
> Outside opening times, freezers must be covered with Styrofoam panels or night curtains.
> The commercial use of tumble dryers, irons and mangles is permitted for a maximum of eight hours per day. The use for institutions in the health care system such as hospitals, birth centers, medical practices as well as old people's and nursing homes is not restricted.
> If the heat in rooms is mainly generated by electrical energy (such as electric heaters and heat pumps), these rooms may be heated to a maximum of 18°C. This does not apply to rooms that are used for the treatment of patients in healthcare institutions such as hospitals, birth centers, medical practices, and old people’s and nursing homes.
> The operation of whirlpools, body tanning devices, saunas, infrared cabins, steam baths, massage chairs and other electrically operated wellness facilities in the commercial sector is permitted for a maximum of seven hours per day.
> The private use of electric cars is only permitted for absolutely necessary journeys (e.g. professional practice, shopping, visiting the doctor, attending religious events, attending court hearings).
Google translated from Page 6 of the actual source: https://www.newsd.admin.ch/newsd/message/attachments/74051.p...
> Shop opening hours must be reduced by 1-2 hours per day. Each store format can determine the time slot independently. If a company decides to close certain branches completely or to only open the shop on certain days, the number of closed hours will count towards the reduction in shop opening times for the entire branch network.
> Outside opening times, freezers must be covered with Styrofoam panels or night curtains.
> The commercial use of tumble dryers, irons and mangles is permitted for a maximum of eight hours per day. The use for institutions in the health care system such as hospitals, birth centers, medical practices as well as old people's and nursing homes is not restricted.
> If the heat in rooms is mainly generated by electrical energy (such as electric heaters and heat pumps), these rooms may be heated to a maximum of 18°C. This does not apply to rooms that are used for the treatment of patients in healthcare institutions such as hospitals, birth centers, medical practices, and old people’s and nursing homes.
> The operation of whirlpools, body tanning devices, saunas, infrared cabins, steam baths, massage chairs and other electrically operated wellness facilities in the commercial sector is permitted for a maximum of seven hours per day.
> The private use of electric cars is only permitted for absolutely necessary journeys (e.g. professional practice, shopping, visiting the doctor, attending religious events, attending court hearings).
Google translated from Page 6 of the actual source: https://www.newsd.admin.ch/newsd/message/attachments/74051.p...
I'm curious about this one
> Streaming services must limit the resolution of their streaming offers to Standard Definition (SD).
Assuming the content has already been encoded in both HD and SD, how much of a difference does it make in terms of electric consumption to transmit it in HD vs SD, on say 1/ a desktop at home and 2/ a phone in the street?
> Streaming services must limit the resolution of their streaming offers to Standard Definition (SD).
Assuming the content has already been encoded in both HD and SD, how much of a difference does it make in terms of electric consumption to transmit it in HD vs SD, on say 1/ a desktop at home and 2/ a phone in the street?
It's interesting to see that they are trying to defer any impact on sectors which have had a bad time already during covid. But reading through this, it seems to me that some of these things should be common sense anyway. Buy maybe energy isn't expensive enough to warrant that common sense so far.
The article though is pretty sensationalist. The government hasn't announced anything, this whole decree is still in consultation phase it seems.
Edit: there's a potential ban on crypto mining and high frequency trading. Will be interesting to see the final document, but I highly doubt high frequency trading will still be in there :)
The article though is pretty sensationalist. The government hasn't announced anything, this whole decree is still in consultation phase it seems.
Edit: there's a potential ban on crypto mining and high frequency trading. Will be interesting to see the final document, but I highly doubt high frequency trading will still be in there :)
The Daily Mail is not a news source, it's a right-wing outrage machine.
Imagine that from 2035 onwards, only EV will be sold in Europe and now we are banning the use of them because of potential black outs due to high energy costs.
Emphasis on crisis. Also, I would assume, in this instance, that fuel prices will be exorbitant, so nonessential gas-powered journeys will be curtailed by default.